Music

Everybody it's me Katie asaurus and welcome back to infinite Quest before we begin this week, we just wanted to say thank you last week was a really tough week for us, but the outpouring of love and kindness and support that we got from this community, was frankly, humbling and overwhelming, and we are just

so, so, thankful. And so grateful for all of you and the The kindness that you showed us last week before we begin, I did want to just let you know that as you listen to this week's episode, I think he will realize why we needed to take a break because this episode is the one that broke us. This episode is extremely raw. It is extremely emotional, extremely vulnerable.

But like I said last week, one of the things that we set out to do from the very beginning here at infinite cost was talk openly and honestly about our struggles and the things that I have experienced because of our neurodivergent.

See and so this week's episode is pretty damn honest in terms of some of those experiences and we are so honored and so grateful to be part of a community that not only uplifts Us in having these conversations but understands why these conversations need to be had at all. So without further Ado, here's the music episode of infinite Quest. Hey everybody, welcome back to infinite Quest. We definitely, haven't tried to start this podcast five separate times and messed up every single

time. For various number of reasons. This is definitely the first time that we tried this podcast opener today and it's going really well so far. I think so. Welcome back to infinite Quest. I think I said that already. It's not perfect. And I was great Katie. Thank you, crushing it. I like to wash it it. My special guests this week. Eric, welcome to the show. What do you mean Eric as opposed to, hey goat. Is that what you're saying? Or are you just pretending that this is your show?

Now Katie special guest. Well, you know, what's and Eric? Yes, I'm sorry. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate his this. My water can I have this water? Oh, thank you. They always do that when they walk on talk shows. They're always like, is this is this month and they go. Oh. Oh, and it's always like that branded mug. We should get cool branded mugs to hold. It was fantastic. Until ocean. But today, we're going to be talking about ADHD and

performance. It started as sort of we're going to do ADHD and music, but then we realized that we have a more diverse history of performances than just music. And ADHD was very much involved in our relationship with all of them. And we've been sort of, I guess I do want to say putting off, but I've been, I've been, I've been apprehensive anxious excited worried.

Looking forward to this One because I do I so much of who I am now has to do with my history with music performance and so much of my relationship to music performance, has to do with my ADHD, all of my relationships in music, performance has in some has something to do with my ADHD because I have it. So that's a thing and so I don't really know where to start. First off Katie, you played music to. When did you start playing music? I did do did I don't know. It's that's that's a tricky

question in and of itself. I well I started playing piano when I was five and I played some other instruments in between then and now and I also like performed I sang and the theater. So yeah, I've done a lot of performance in my life. As also magician, which I think is. So yeah, I mean, that does a cow, that's all that counts. It's so silly. It's such a silly like little, it's like a little a stroke in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Like yes, I do that but it's

also magician also magician. But yeah, I don't know, it's what it is and I played I've played music. Since I was I guess I would have been like nine or ten. I started cello. And then after that, I stopped playing cello and started playing piano then after that I stopped playing piano and started playing guitar and that was sort of the one that's stuck. And eventually I found myself at a at a fancy schmancy boarding school to study classical guitar performance.

So I was there for my Junior and senior year in high school and after that I basically quit music entirely. I had that experience which was nuanced and interesting and informative. Motive and in shapes the way that I see the world but it was also really traumatic in a lot of ways. And a lot of that was due to the fact that I wasn't, I hadn't really come to terms with how my

brain works. And what that meant for, what, what my relationship to music was to become and, and was I was trying to sort of force my relationship to music to be something that I I guess was sort of it was, I was forcing my meal. I thought that my relationship to music had become something that was that was put on it rather than what it organically would have become.

And that was really sort of traumatizing and now looking back being 26, almost 27. And knowing a lot more about ADHD that I denied used to looking back, it was everywhere. Like my ADHD had its hand in everything concerning. Music and it was really terrifying, I mean, thinking about like the process of practicing and learning about or learning to do these really minut things when it comes to gaining fluency with an instrument.

So much of that has to do with with regulation self-regulation and In A Million Ways. Regulating your time, regulating your focus, your energy and you know, ADHD is so much. A disorder of Regulation. That's I mean it just shattered me in a lot of ways. I just kind of got right into that. There was no segue. I was just like I think since we're are we are at the top of the episode. The thing that I kind of wanted to to delve not delve into but stay off.

The top is like the reason why we wanted to talk about this episode is not necessarily because like we feel Feel like every listener that we have has the experience of being, you know, like a top-tier classical musician, but what we found is pretty like when we were talking about this before we decided to do this podcast episode, was that so many of the frustrations

and so many of the challenges. And so many of the experiences that we had in those sort of fields and in those sort of circumstances are Shared by a lot of people in a lot of different circumstances, especially students and solo.

This isn't necessarily like part of our school series but I feel like it is very tangentially related especially in terms of the experience of being like a gifted kid or being, you know, not supported in your neurodiversity in school and and the feelings of imposter syndrome and burnout and rejection to the dysphoria and self-regulation and emotional dysregulation. And Executive dysfunction, like all of those things are so profoundly tied.

All like, all of that, that huge list that I just said is so tied into my experience and my understanding of performance and and top I say top level it, it sounds so adulthood but like I'm very good at Shakespeare like you know so it's like I don't know. I was feeling really weird feel like I'm Bible is like expert but I like I have two pieces of paper that say that I am. So I don't I don't Like approach it, you know? Like well I think I mean I think

it's, I think it's accurate. You know, to say anything other than that, you are a top-level Shakespeare, not just performer, but your understanding of Shakespeare is at an a-level, like is a tear stuff. They just his. I think it's the only accurate way of describing it. Sometimes I wonder about musicians like Joshua Bell like at what point did Joshua Bell? Just go. Yeah, I'm world-class like what like when did that happen? Mmm. Like when was that?

That's what we need to do a show about 14 fangirl Friday. Oh my gosh. Jeepers Creepers. Well, I think what's strange is is as if you once you're when you're Rising the rising in the ranks you know you're constantly you constantly text your good friend, David Bell Koski and ask him enough to like seriously. Like seriously you did a good person is a fucking world-class classical musician pianist like like top-tier. He was also one of my Best

friends. Yeah, and importance like I would be I would honestly really like to talk to David Wilcock. Cute. Just to ask him that question. Like not like we can have mod for fair Girl Friday but I just want to know like at what point do you as a classical musician, go? Oh, I guess I am arguably very good. Like, oh my gosh, we should do that this week. We should, in fact, I'm sitting in stone right now. I don't care what he's doing. I'll bother okay. Text her best friend.

David have a lot of slutty story. I didn't. I didn't know that he was so like successful. I mean, he deserves it. He's been working his ass. Us off for so long. But anyways, I think what you were saying about how this is also. It's very much related to like the schooling the topic of schooling. Yeah, absolutely I think music and studying music and playing

music. It's in a way, it's sort of a it's in itself is an exercise in the regulatory behaviors that are necessary in any schooling environment. It requires setting aside time and sitting and being like this is what I'm doing during this period of time, it requires delayed gratification something that ADHD people don't always do super well with it requires. I don't know. It requires frankly. Well, Focus, frankly, the it requires the ability to regulate focus and playing music.

Particularly in a schooling environment and like a Structured schooling environment is so much. So in a way sort of like an exposure therapy kind of thing real. I mean really like my when I started playing music at like a more disciplined level on a more classical way in like in a more classically trained type dealio it exposed. So much of the stuff that I now know is, is it, eh dear. It like it in a very distilled and obvious in frankly, painful way that I could I may have

overlooked otherwise. So although, you know, being an ER, diversion person being an ADHD person who was routinely tasked with, you know, having to sit in a quiet room for three-plus hours a day. I mean, minimum 3, 3 hours a day and doing things that are boring for some Um, payoff lip, put some promise to pay off later on. I mean, those are things like those are uniquely difficult if you could. Those are like Taylor difficult for ADHD people, and I'm in a way, I'm sort of grateful for

that. Now, I mean, I have a lot of, I have a lot of, you know, gay, I guess ground to gain back. I think my, my happiness and my health with my relationship, the health of my relationship to music suffered greatly and I'm still recovering from that, but it it forced me to develop understandings of things and methods for dealing with things that I don't think I would have had, I not been in that specific environment of just sitting across from music and staring at

in the face all day. Can I ask you a really tough question? And you don't have to answer it if you don't want to? Yeah, sure. So then why did you quit? wow well I think I mean it's I think it's important to just, I guess, clarify that All of that stuff that I just said about how I'm grateful for it and it forced me to develop systems for for dealing with uniquely ADHD difficult situations, all of those developed in how I decided

to handle it after the fact. After years of, you know, I got after graduating and you know, after years of just basically morning my relationship to music, I decided that like, that's not going to be what happens that I can't. I can't. Have that to have had music. Be such a massively wonderful part of my life and to have it like taken away from me, because of whatever. It's a long story. But because of a lot of stuff. I decided that that can't just be where it ends that had.

If anything else it had to be useful, it just had to be useful. I wouldn't be able to sleep. If it wasn't useful I had to make use of it somehow and so I did like a an autopsy basically. I had to figure out specifically, why specifically why did those moments hurt so

bad? Specifically, why am I so mad at myself all the time when I think about it, why and I still, I mean I'm still unpacking it, but I didn't, I wasn't at the time I wasn't thinking like, oh, I have executive dysfunction and these are uniquely difficult to me because they require high level like, you know, a honing of one's executive functions. And and this is going to be useful down the road and that

was that wasn't the case at all. I was, you know, a 16 year old kid going through all the regular high school stuff, you know, learning that, you know. Well, learning a lot of things about, like, you know, I guess my relationship. Ship to my own sexuality and like, social standing and stuff light. All that regular high school stuff matched, with the fact that I'm expected to, I guess perform at a very high level in regular intervals.

So, at the time I wasn't thinking about The fact that all of this pain is useful and good and therefore I'll continue to experience it at the time. I was just trying to keep my head above water I guess but only looking back. Do I recognize its usefulness and so I quit I guess your question was. So why did I quit? I quit. So all right, so I guess I'll brief brief little story real quick version. I started playing guitar when I was 12 because my friend was

starting a band. We never ended up starting a band doesn't matter. I kept playing guitar. I got really into medalist was in a metal band. I was in like a comedy duo. Well when we were didn't you just tell me we did a like a Simon and Garfunkel kind of thing. Played Battle of the Bands. I was the guitar guy at the party one too many times. But you know, I was a guitarist. I was what you thought.

Thought of as like a high-school guitarist and I like playing music and I liked sitting there at my computer or wherever this, trembling Twinkie Twinkie triangle and around. But at some point I got really bored and I needed to for one reason or another. I felt the need to press the sort of abort Mission like on my that current version of my life like I needed what I call like a jump where I like everything

changes everybody. I know, I know don't know and I made an entirely new batch of people in an entirely new place. And my I realized my music could be a vehicle for that and so I started looking into art schools like Arts boarding schools and I'm privileged enough to be in a position to where if I got accepted to an art school and made the case for going like my parents could swing it. They could make it happen. Yeah, I wasn't You Know, Rich by any means but you know, they did

credit and stuff. My parents that is and so I applied to and got into this school called Interlochen Arts Academy. And oh, this is funny because I almost went there. Like, that's the funniest pasty white. I forgot about tagging is like, I got offers from interlocking and I just like my parents wouldn't. Let me go. But like, we almost wound up going to the same school. We would have been ahead of each other. So we would have, we still would have never met noticing.

It was a picture on the wall somewhere. Yeah, up on the wall. Probably, you know, obviously, it's, oh my God. James Potter. He also played Quidditch, For a theater. I imagine. Yeah. That will, the theater Department was so heavily funded. I'm sure they would have been a massive, something of you somewhere. But anyways, I got into the school and suddenly I wasn't like this pretty good guitarist in high school.

Suddenly, I was the worst guitarist at this place where I was surrounded by, like, actual prodigies, like actual prodigies and people who were very serious about Music and had been their whole lives. And so suddenly this joyful thing of Music suddenly became, you know. I mean, I don't want to say my job because I wasn't getting paid but it became I don't know, it became an opportunity for massive amounts of embarrassment, and shame.

Basically, if I didn't perform at a consistent at a consistent level consistently, I would experience massive social embarrassment and then that's terrifying. And so it my relationship to music now, became not about. I enjoy playing music. It became much more about. I have to be a certain level of good or else I will experience. Shame and embarrassment on a level that I like previously didn't know existed. And so, I did, I kept up, I

think. And so when I left, that's why I quit is because music was not what it used to be anymore. It was not something that I enjoyed it wasn't it was hardly something I enjoyed listening to because if it was bad, I was mad at the person playing and if it was good, I was mad at myself for not I had that for like three years. Like I refused to go see any Shakespeare for years, really? I just I just wouldn't do it. I like know, it's either going to suck. It's gonna be terrible.

I'm gonna be mad the whole time or it's going to be brilliant. And then I'm going to be upset and jealous that like I didn't think to put the inflection where they did. And I'm just gonna be like, I had I had that exact same experience like a lot. It's, it's sort of like it's like I guess a cursive, Knowledge kind of thing or like.

You know, I imagine, you know, like directors, when watching movies might be like, oh, the director of this movie that, you know, clearly their audio cut out and they had to make it work or something, like they noticed the behind-the-scenes thing is going on and can't can't just be an in the movie, you know? So I felt that way about all music like, especially like pop music. I mean, I was bitter, as I was furious at the existence of pop music because like how dare this

person become so successful? Cessful like playing three chords like how dare they? It was so bitter about that but it's not useful to be better about that kind of stuff and it's not pleasant. So I decided to figure out how I was going to get over it, but when it comes to that, like three year period, where you couldn't listen to music and stuff, what were you mad at? We're not, I don't want to put

words in your mouth. You never said the term mad, but what emotions did you feel and where they directed towards anything? Or anybody? I mean man that's our question. I mean I think like for me it's always been like a really specific combination of impostor syndrome and all-or-nothing thinking mixed with like just a sprinkling of burnt out gifted kid and rejection sensitive dysphoria because like I Jasper Lee.

I like I wanted to be a classical pianist like that was the thing that I wanted to be for a very long time but I wasn't good enough like I just wasn't good enough and I think like Part of part of the issue for me is like I've always held

and I want to be very clear. This is unhealthy, this is an unhealthy way to think about something, but like if I can't be the best if I can't be quantifiably the best, I don't want to do it. Period and stop and like it's it's why I will never run a marathon because I'm not going to win the marathon. So what is the fucking point? I'm not going to go through all of that. Work and all of that time to accomplish something I want to

win, I want to be the best. And I think a lot of that has to do with, with school, with my experience in school of being really academically gifted, and being really good at school, and placing all of my self-worth and all of my confidence in that of, in my ability to easily succeed. And when I cannot easily succeed at something, one of two things happen, I immediately want to quit. I immediately want to give up because It's not worth my time. I'm not a prodigy.

So why am I even bothering? Or it becomes my absolute Obsession, and that's what happened with Shakespeare. And that's what happened, with magic music, went the opposite direction. Like I very quickly, realised that I do. I very quickly realized that even as a kid that I was not good enough to be like a prodigy classical pianist. Like I just wasn't, I didn't, I didn't have it. And now very interesting Eric.

Very fucking interesting. Do you know what dramatically affects your ability to read music? What is that Katie this calculate? Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. So that's interesting. Interesting. Ha ha ha just for reference for context. Just just calculate as is basically dyslexia, but with numbers. Yes, that's correct. And so, like, I just I wasn't good enough. Like I just and and, and knowing that and feeling that for four years like putting in all of it,

like I took piano lessons. From the time I was five does have. I was like, I think 21, I played the piano and I was good. I play like it was fine, but I wasn't doing like Rachmaninoff, you know, and it's just like, I don't know if that was a combination of my not being willing and able to practice enough. I don't know if it was just like, I never had the technical skill. Like, I really don't know, I

really don't know. I just know that I was never playing the things that I wanted to be able to play, no matter how hard I tried. And so, it became this thing where I just got more and more, and more, and more, and more, and more frustrated and angry at myself for not being able. Able to do the things. So I quit. Whereas like with Shakespeare and with magic, I love learning like I love learning. I love learning new things.

I love talking with people who know things like well, like I don't even care what it is. It could be the most uninteresting Topic in the entire world, but if you are an expert and you can just keep answering my why?

And my Y, and my Y and my why? That is like the most exciting thing in the world to me and Shakespeare, did that like I was not good at Shakespeare, but Shakespeare was a challenge and it was a puzzle and it was, it was something that I was like, I am perfectly prepared, to spend the rest of my life, learning how to be good at this because I'm so mad that I can't get it right on the first try. But the second try, I'm better

and the third try. I'm better than that and You know, like I do not like that was. I don't think I answered your question at all, but there you go. No, that's there was a lovely answer. I think makes me think of something that I refer to, as the taste Gap. I know it sound, like, it's actually, like, a thing that's not a term, you could Google, but that's why I call it in my head and it's a reference to something that I believe Ira

Glass said. He said, if you get into creative work, a creative thing, I think it applies to more than just creative. He's too but he was referring to it specifically as a creative thing, if you get into creative work, it's on some level because you have good taste. No, I take that to me. Not good taste. Like there is some objective good and objective bad and you have the good one. I mean you have some version of this thing that you find to be good.

You wouldn't you have some understanding of what you like about it and therefore pursue it. So you get any creative work because you, you know, you know. Do what you think is good and you want to be that. So you start doing the thing and because you know what's good again? Whatever. Good is to you, you are going to be aware that when you start, you're not very good. You are not that thing that you wanted to be. That's inevitable.

That's just part of it. Especially I think with, with instrumental music because everybody can sing. Every anybody can sing, it's just a matter of how quote-unquote, well, they're doing it. We're capable of producing sounds with our mouths but nobody is born already knowing how to play the piano.

Everybody is completely is completely, whatever the opposite of fluent going in is so it and there's inevitably a period where you are not that good at it, whatever your version of good is And there's a gap there. There's a period of time where you're doing the thing, and you are fiercely aware that, you're not, whatever you conceive of good to be. You're not good and you have to get through that until eventually, hopefully you'll go.

Oh, that was pretty good. And that's sort of the goal. However, I think as a person who puts particularly, as particularly high standards for themselves and as a person who what I consider to be good, involves a lot of technical skill. I never got through that Gap.

And so if you're a person where that good is constantly getting further and further away from you, you're constantly raising the bar for what good is. It becomes much more difficult to cross that Gap. Now I regress, Ira Glass has advice to those in in The Taste Gap. As I, you know, again as I call it is to create a large volume of work, a large quantity of work. If you're a painter that A lot of paintings. If you're a writer that means a lot of words on paper.

If you're a musician, that means a lot of hours of practice, frankly and for me, so so for one in my head getting getting through that taste Gap or at least being or at least looking forward to getting out of that taste. But having some understanding of moving through that and getting to a place where you feel that you're actually pretty good.

Is essential to Painting motivation to do anything, knowing that you're getting closer to this understanding of good if you're not there yet, and being that large volume of work that needs to be created to such to get through that. Taste Gap is often very fucking hard to do if you have severe executive dysfunction and so what? Wait, wait a minute, I spent, you know, a day hyper-focused on it. And that wasn't enough to get me through the taste Gap. I'm done.

Screw that, you know, I feel attacked Sorry, no let me know. That's exactly what I was going to ask you is like because what I like the cello is really good example. I played the cello for like I think I say three years because it was in my house for three years but I actually Play The Cello for like six weeks and I wasn't instantly Yo-Yo Ma and I was. So I was just like because at that point I had been playing piano for Teen years, something

like that. And so I was like, well clearly if I can't be good at the piano, maybe it's the cello. That's the thing that I'm going to be a prodigy at and and, you know, and for the problem was is by then I had had so much more exposure to like what made talented musicians, what made good musicians that? Like I the bar was already in possibly High because I was going. To be Yo-Yo, Ma Roar quit but then it was like the technical skill and and everything that already that I knew it just made

it harder. I push the bar. So impossibly high that, there is no possible way that I was ever going to actually be able to achieve it. It's the same. It's the same thing with with, like singing, like I took voice lessons for More than a decade like in a space and then like, especially like in college and stuff because I was going to be a musical theater major, but I don't have a belt. I just don't.

I'm not it's just there's something about the way that my voice Falls. Like I'm not a good Beltre and the way that Broadway and and modern musical theater was going, it was, it's all pop. It's all pop belt stuff. Hmm. And so like I got told by a number of voice teachers that like you have a perfectly adequate voice is perfectly adequate. You are you are incredible at like pitch and tone and you can you can hear music and you understand music.

Your voice is adequate. You will never be anything more than adequate particularly with the fact that like you don't have a pop voice and so I am still embarrassed about my voice. Like I'm I still don't like to sing in front of people. Like, icing my dumb little, you know, three chords ukulele songs because like, I'm basically ironically performing, like, I know that it's not good.

I'm just having fun. But like the difference between like, Katie actually singing and Katie like, fucking around for the irony of it is dramatic. But because I was told over and over and over that, I will never be anything more than adequate. I just I quit. I was like, well then fine. Then I'm not going to sing anymore and I didn't sing. I Early, physically did not sing for almost six years. Like, I would avoid musical calls. I wouldn't audition, I wouldn't I wouldn't sing.

And there were a couple shows where they cast me and they were like, can you sing? And I said, no, I was like, oh no, I don't, I don't thing. And like, later on is actually really funny because I worked with the director who asked me if I could sing and I said No. And then I got caught. I got caught because I was, I was like, I don't remember what I was doing, but I was like, I was literally just singing around the theater. Just Just, you know, and he was

like you fucking liar. You said, you couldn't, you said you couldn't carry a tune. And I was like, I lied Im. Sorry, I performing certain variety but I also I noticed that when I sing I sing better when I'm not trying, like if I sit down, I'm like I'm going to sing now. I'm going to give a performance of singing, I find that I'm

worse. Whatever that means then when I'm just singing in the shower so I find amazing and I think it I think so much of all of this has to do with It has to do with ultimately, what one's own internal understanding of what is worth trying for. Like if I'm not the best, it's not worth it. Which is like yeah and I think the you know this this this is I think this is something to what I'm about to say is something to work towards.

Not something that you can snap your fingers and just be but understanding that At. Sort of counter-intuitively enjoyment is the goal enjoying music, whether it's playing music or hearing music, that's the point. That's the capital P Point. That's the goal in all of it. Part of that is perhaps reaching a certain standard of quality. But again whatever that means to you but the point is to enjoy it and so trying to reach a place with yourself within yourself.

Where it doesn't have to be absolutely magnificently perfect to be enjoyed. Then it's worth doing and I think a lot of that has to do well, for example, when you just said, you know, your ukulele songs, you said that, you're aware that it's bad or not good with whatever which would show you specifically said. But I do know that a lot of people get a lot out of those ukulele songs that you claim are bad. And so perhaps part of your enjoyment of singing could not be whether or not you.

Joy it as like in terms of its quality or there, but you could enjoy it because, you know, that it's making other people happy. Now, this isn't something I'm not like saying Katie, why don't you just do that? Come on, Katie, why don't you? Why don't you flip the switch in your brain? That makes you allows you to do that. That's the goal to work towards and something to keep in mind. And I'm certainly not saying that, that's what I do.

But that is what I wish I did. And I think, you know, part of again, like part of living in this world, where performing at a certain level musical level was a means of avoiding embarrassment and pretty much only that coming from all of that, frankly, Trump like, I don't want to use the word trauma lightly, but trauma, I think realizing having to come to those conclusions about approaching music in In a number of approaching the enjoyment of Music in a number of different

ways, that isn't just, how high would I rank this on the technical skill level? You know, it is for me is essential to mending my relationship with music. Just like, I don't know how to do that.

Like, I really don't. And it's something that I've struggled with for a really long time because like one of my least favorite things about how minor divergencies Shows up is it is it is absolutely just all-or-nothing thinking all the way down if I can't be the best I don't want to do it if I can't be perfect. What's the point? Like if you know it's not let's Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that but like, I don't. I'm going to say something and it's going to sound very weird

coming out of my mouth but like, I don't like performing. like, I like the action of Performing. I like what I get to do while I am performing. But I, at the same time, It doesn't matter what I'm doing. If I'm playing piano or singing, or acting or whatever, In the moment, it's great but the moment I'm done with it. Is the moment I go you said that word wrong, you left that word out, that was a really bad. Like why would you even do the speech like that?

Like I instantly there's never the moment of like enjoyment for me. There's only the moment of like, it could have been better. It wasn't perfect. What was the point? And like that's really hard to deal with when you've devoted your entire life to performing because a lot of People ask me about stuff like, well how do you deal with rejection sensor dysphoria and auditions?

And, and it doesn't it like projections are dysphoria never even occurred to me in auditions because like, I'm so hard my own critic that like I'm not worried about the rejection that other people face. I'm shocked when I get cast because I just feel like I went in and botched the whole thing, you know, and then I'm like, are you sure? The number of times I've been offered like a great role. Like the lead Lady Macbeth Kate Beatrice like I get offered

those roles a lot. I have played those roles multiple times and every single time I reaction is, are you sure like, is that are you, did you did you email the wrong person? Like, are you, are you sure? Because, I'm just so wholesale, convinced that, like, I'm not any good and that all of this is a sham and that at some point somebody going to notice that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Like it's one of the most frustrating things because like it makes no sense and it's like and it's something that I've been trying to unpack for four years but it also took me, you know, 30 years to get there and build those sort of like thought patterns. So it's like real hard to unlearn them and a couple, you know. Yeah. I think it's Oh man I think gosh I when you said thought patterns it just made my whole brain. Go oh and I think I think it's it's all right.

It's easier to demolish a house that it is to renovate a house Mosaic. This is true. Perhaps I'm completely wrong on that. Somebody correct me. But but it's easier to completely and utterly destroy something that it is to destroy parts of it, build up, other parts of it and change into something else. And I think that's where where I lived in the three. Well, gosh, more than that rattling. Why don't? I don't think my the worst of my relationship to music ever was.

I don't think I had to start and an end date. I'm still very much in it, but the worst that ever was during like the three or four year period, when it was just steadily, the worst come I was in the burn, down the house place where like my relationship to music is deathly ill and he is it needs you know it just needs to go away. My I need to forget that music exists and now I'm trying to move more towards a place where I understand it.

As renovating my understanding of music as dismantling it and taking it apart and looking at all the individual pieces finding out what can still be used, finding out what can be, you know, dust it off and used finding out what ideas I had were that were completely Toxic and didn't need to be there at all and that I want to throw away and then finding new ideas that can be put in. And I don't know if I'm doing that particularly well I don't feel like I'm doing that very

well but I think that's I think the two of us. Both of us have an intrinsic appreciation for things that are useful in a lot of ways, you know, we're utilitarian I suppose and I think It's because of the way that our brain works. We understand that somewhere in all that gobbledygook the years of practice the auditions the, you know, Theory at ourselves for not performing at the level that we would have liked

somewhere in all. That are things that are genuinely useful and B could be used for great good in our lives, in the lives of others. I mean just an obvious one is like I generally have familiarity with the in Instrument of a guitar my fingers nowhere to go. I can put my fingers in the places. That's nice. I don't have any time to enjoy that because right behind that, as soon as I pick it up the bright lights and the my posture and and my fingernails in the

sensations and my hands. All of those start coming in and all of those are wrong. Those are not what they're supposed to be, and I know that and then I play a note in my tone is garbage, utter garbage? Image and my guitar is in, isn't quite perfectly tuned. In my strings are three weeks old and like That's tough. I can do away with I would like to not have that anymore, please, but it's just, I shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I still have the capacity to create joy for apparently other people when playing music. But doesn't and you happy no but it could. I'm convinced I frankly have faith that it could Ruby could make me very happy and I think my either running definition like being a non believing person. I have a weird relationship with the word faith. So I've gone through many versions of like, my definition of the word faith, over the years, to try to come to terms with it.

But one of them, is Faith is trust when trust isn't necessarily learned or warranted, but when trust is your best option, So, you know, for planes going down and somebody stands up and says I can fly the plane like even though you don't necessarily have any reason to believe that they do your best option is just to have faith, that they can sure. And so perhaps my relationship

to music is dead. A lot of there's a lot of you know, I could go down that road but I have faith that if I work towards Reviving it and renovating that house that dilapidated terrible, horrifying house that lives in my head that there's something good on the other side. Everybody. You did it. Congratulations. You made it to the middle of the episode. You should go have a triumphant glass of water to celebrate. Before we take you back to this

week's episode. We just wanted to remind you that if you are interested in helping us to be able to continue to have conversations like these in our mission to educate and Advocate about neuro divergency you can do that by visiting patreon.com infinite Quest. We are so close to hitting our goal of getting 150, patreon sponsors by the end of April, and with your help. Hope we can achieve that goal and continue to make infinite Quest, free and accessible for anybody who needs it as always,

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more than you will ever know. And we are so grateful for all of your support. So with that reminder also buy glasses from Z little.com use kto for ten percent off, your order back to the show. I feel like what we're discovering is that, like, we once again, produced a spectacular podcast about nothing. Because, well, hear me out because I feel like It's ADHD. It is the pressure of having the experience of being a like high-level performer, musician. Whatever it's so much stuff all

in one. You know what I mean? Like it's not just an ADHD thing, it's not just an executive dysfunction thing like there's a lot more to it but what I want to know Is you ask me this question a while ago and I'm still mad at you for it. So this is my revenge but like if somebody is listening to this podcast going like oh my ADHD kid is like really into music and I don't want them to like burn out or whatever. Like what do you what do you say? Like what do you what do you say

to the parents? Who push? What do you say to the kids? Who said too high of you know, expectations on themselves. What do you say to the teachers? Who traumatized like Like what, what advice and insight do you have to give to the world about from your experience? Because I am working on my answer because I will answer after you. But like I want to know like what like if anything good comes out of like the bad that we have experienced. What do you what do you say?

Well I think I guess I'll start with specifics and probably move to more vague. Like I don't know larger ideas but immediately I would say whether you're the parent of a person with ADHD Of a person of a kid with ADHD who's interested in music? Keep it around, keep it around and accessible easily. Screw don't use cases music. I mean, if you're traveling use cases, but have have guitars

around on stands ready to play. Have the pianos out with the thing, opened the keep keyboards or whatever musical stuff. Anything you have. That is capable of amazing making music. Keep it around. Don't Bury it in drawers because the kid might forget it exists. If it's in a drawer and, you know, when I when my relationship to music, first started playing music first started. It was just because it was around, it was because there was a guitar next to me or in.

There was a keyboard plugged in next to me and 44 seconds at a time. I could go over and go dee-lee dee-lee didn't and you know fuck off to something else. So keep it around, keep it around. To the person, playing the music with ADHD, I would say. Try not to have a rigid understanding of what practice

and Improvement looks like. For me, I figured if I wasn't, if I wasn't, you know, downstairs in the practice, when I was at school, if I was in downstairs, in the practice room, with glossy filed, Nails guitar with and I wasn't doing, you know, 30 minutes polishing my nails, half an hour. Your Or hour-long, warm-up session, half an hour, sight-reading then followed by working on repertoire. If I wasn't doing that, then it wasn't worth even taking a

guitar out of the case. And so I would avoid practicing because I wasn't gonna do that whole fucking process. Every time it was excruciating again like ADHD executive dysfunctions problems with regulation. Like the idea of a regulating all those activities was horrifying to me. So don't let other people Define what practice and Improvement looks.

Like something. I wish they would have done back in the day was sit at my desk with watching YouTube videos or whatever just idly diddling around because that's how I learn guitar in the first place. I didn't have practice sessions. I wouldn't, I wouldn't get even conceive of practice sessions. That came later. When people told me, that's what practice looked like. So don't let other people Define what practice looks like to you. Then.

On a more, I guess, zoomed out level, remember that the point is to enjoy it. Now, oftentimes, It might be beneficial to delay gratification for a larger pay off later. Trying to do a thing that seems unnatural for your hands to do. I mean, my my life was contextualized at boarding. School was contextualized by having lessons once a week and every time my teacher would say, you know, be able to do this by next week and they would show me

something. They would tell me to do something impossible that I thought was impossible. You know, reaching, you know, from the first fret to the sixth or something like that. Like that's impossible. I can't do that. And they would say well yes you can and then they would do it and their hands were smaller than mine was like. Wow. And so I would have to learn the impossible thing and it's sucked. A lot of the time, most of the time like 99%, I'm it sucked. But being able to do that

allowed me to play more stuff. So sometimes Indian, the enjoyment is delayed for whatever reason, for a larger pay off later, but the point is to enjoy it. If it ever becomes about those moments, when you're doing stuff that you hate, if the enjoyment never comes, have have have music that you, that you can just pull out and just play that you enjoy just to remind yourself. Like this is the point, the point is to enjoy it.

The point is to create Beauty in the world and in Rich The Human Experience. Just remember always have that. Be the North Star. and, I mean, I guess on a more practical level if you are a classical musician who has to who has to have those epic practice sessions, where you have to sit in the room, consolidate all everything have a bag.

You don't want to be looking around for Stuff, have a bag with all of your stuff in it, with your music, and it with your your footstool, with your nail files and whatnot. Consolidate all of it mise-en-place, baby, all day, every day. But yeah I guess that I'll probably think of more, but that what about you kidding? What do you think? What advice would you have? I have no good advice. I mean, I have a lot of like, very practical advice but it's all, you know, Memorize your

lines early. Don't wait until the last minute. Break it down into manageable chunks. Learn to backward. Boring boring advice, work backwards. Forwards backwards is working. Backwards is one of the Working backwards is like honestly. Like if I'm if I'm being genuine like one of my one of my best pieces of advice, like I memorized all my lines backwards, it's so useful, it's so handy. It gives you a place to end, it

gives you a place to start work. Super, super well, for a lot of things music Shakespeare, any sort of like dense verse or like dense Pros, like it memorizing. Backwards is super, super useful. But the real thing and I'm very tired, so I am going to cry. Is that I think, what, from from the less like four times? We tried to do this podcast, what I have really been thinking about, and what I've really been dwelling on, is the fact that like I have, just Never ever

felt good enough. Like I've never felt good enough and I think that comes from all-or-nothing thinking, I think that comes some from executive dysfunction of not being able to like put in the work to get to where I want to be. I think it comes from just like I said earlier like my experience of being very academically, gifted school coming, easy but the, it's weird, how Angry.

I am about the fact that like, I can't sit down and effortlessly play jazz piano because I want to, I've always wanted to learn how to play jazz, like piano. I just think that'd be cool. I think that'd be a really cool skill, but I can't do it. I can't just sit down and do it. And so, every part of my brain goes, well, you weren't immediately a prodigy. So what's the point of trying? You weren't immediately. Brilliant at it, and To a certain extent I have been able

to overcome that. Like I spent 20 years playing the piano like I can. I don't even think I can't anymore. I think if you may be challenged me to a duel, I might be able to play you Amazing Grace on the violin or something but like I have lost so many of the skills that I once had because I just decided somewhere along the line that because I was not going to be playing Carnegie Hall.

That it wasn't worth my time. And then, To make it even more fucked, then what I did perform at the Kennedy Center, then what I did make it to Carnegie Hall, I quit because my imposter syndrome told me that because it was easy and because I was good at it, I was an imposter and I was a fake and I was defrauding Everybody by pretending like I had any business being there and

so I quit. And and those two things put together is frankly, very sad, like I don't pretend like this is not a worldview that I'm issuing as a healthy one but yeah, I quit doing slam poetry because I was good at it. That is that is the whole a story is I was very very good at it immediately. And I got very very I don't want to say famous but I became pretty well. Tone and I performed at like, what is arguably? One of the most prestigious institutions in the entire

world? And so, I quit. That's weird. Eric, that's weird that I did. That. That's a weird fucking thing and everybody always goes. Wait, what you did? Slam poetry go. Oh yeah. I performed for a lot of presidents one day like and it's just like this weird little trivia fact in my life and it was because like the things that I wanted were hard and the things that I were good at were easy and there was no justifying them there was there was no way to find balance.

I was either not good enough or too good and Either way, I didn't, I shouldn't waste my time and that's dumb. So my advice is don't be like me when you grow up. Hmm, that is a really hard place to be Kitty. I'm sorry. I mean it's okay sire it's not your fault Eric it's not your fault, don't deflect the joke, I will continue to do. So for as long as you know me welcome to the kto Silver's party, I think I think there's a ended on the bomber, I'm sorry. No, no, it's okay.

I, I, I I'm very much trying to skirt a line where I'm still being honest, but I'm not. I'm not giving more attention to the more cynical parts of my nature. Sure. but I mean ultimately I think too close Our relationship to politics relationship to yourself but your relationship to music and to Performance into art. In general is similar to her like a human relationship and that sometimes you meet somebody and it clicks and it's amazing.

But no relationship is free from its, shortfalls, its shortcomings, its pitfalls, shortcomings. And then needs to be worked on and it's not always pleasant. But I mean, at the end of the day, One thing that. I at least aspire to never give up. Really, I never thought I never thought about my 14 year old me, never thought I'd eventually be saying something like this, but is to have faith that it's worth salvaging.

Nev faith. It is worth working on that music and art is an immense source for good in the world and always will be and whatever your relationship to it is. Whether it's performing it and making it or or consuming It, Whatever It Is. It's worth maintaining a relationship with music and art because it's the strangest thing. But it for some reason, I mean, it's some of the stuff that makes life worth living and I'll

also never give up faith. That life is indeed worth living and enjoying art is part of that for me. And if you think it's part of it for you I encourage you to strive to continue, to enjoy it in whatever form that takes. Yep. We have to we have to stop. Its you have to get ready for your interview. Oh, I mean I've got time but I was trying to think of like something good to say for a close but I think I'm just too sad to think I'm close. I'm really sad to me.

Really sad together. I'm and I think that's why this is such a fucking hard. Episode is like It's because like there's no, there's no fix. Like, there's no, there's no brilliant. Like and then we magically overcame it to become wonderfully successful. It's like, no, like it's just it's part of our Lives all the

time. Like every time I walk by my piano, I feel Yeah, I feel like I feel sad, like, it's like, you know, it's and it's and it's frustrating like and I know you've talked about it. And so I feel like getting back into it. Like if you, you know, like I would love to pick the cello back up because I feel like the cello was something where I was like, I wasn't immediately good at it and the, and the immaturity, and the not understanding my brain, like, I would love to relearn that her.

I guess, I learned from the peak, Hitting at this point, you know, like yeah, I think that would be really cool but I haven't done that in years. Like I've only stuck to the things that I was good at because the feeling of not being good at something like terrified me, you know. Yeah and I mean I really do think perhaps this belongs in the podcast. I'll throw it in there

somewhere. But I really do think it having ADHD makes I think it makes one's relationship to to anything any goal worth achieving that requires, strong, executive functions, the delaying of gratification, the regulating of time and attention. It makes those relationships. Super fucking complicated, because I know a lot of people who, like, I knew it shit ton of neurotypical people or I don't I mean, I don't I assumed to be

neurotypical. People who Do things like practice when they didn't want to and it's like if I didn't want to practice, I could still force myself to go down into the room and do all the stuff and I did a lot, but my brain wasn't in taking it feels different, it feels differently feels different. It's like when you're, it's like, when you're reading a page on a book and you realize that you haven't actually been reading it, you just been like,

skimming the words. It's like that, it's like, oh, I've been practicing this Pete, but none of that. Count it, plugging it didn't actually happen. I just like checked out. Like, I think, oh sorry. No, no please. Now, as I say, I actually had like, one actual real piece of advice that I could just shoehorn and at the end. Oh, yeah. Go for it. It's a, it's practice with a goal in mind that was like one of the best pieces of advice.

I ever I ever heard about practice because, like, it's really easy to get in the mindset and I've done this, like, I have to play piano for 60 minutes a day and like, and that will assuredly. Be the best pianist of all time. Well, no. Practice for five minutes. If your goal is to get this one little passage correct, like, practice until you get it, correct, like, specifically practicing with a goal at or like rehearsing with a goal, like, I'm just gonna get this speech.

I'm just going to get this blocking or whatever, like, smaller goals. Like that was one of the first times. Like and one of the first ways that I learned to overcome my executive dysfunction, Especially in conversation with like, rehearsal and practice. And that kind of thing. Like I realized is not brilliant advice but nobody had ever told me that before I was just like I was always I'd always just rehearse to rehearse.

I'd always just practiced to practice but like once I like let go of the like okay I have to play for 60 minutes and then I get my practice sticker for the week or whatever and I said, I don't need to practice for 60 minutes. I need to practice for 10 because 10 is what will Get me this measure that I'm having trouble with.

And then from then, like I can spend another 10 like putting it back into the piece as a whole but like not turning it into a thing where like you're just doing it for the sake of doing it. Like that really, really helped me a lot of oh yeah, I think I mean I think it much like with, you know, cleaning a room or any task that isn't just fun and awesome. And that you want to do for the sake of it, breaking it down into smaller.

Smaller achievable goals. I mean that it rather than just sitting there, like, I'm going to do a big ol epic ass, you know, practice section session. Just be like, oh, I want to get this measure solid. Yeah, like minutes, yeah, set those dopamine checkpoints, you know, like you can do that and I think especially in the high level music world, people are going to try to set those goals for you. And sometimes that's that's just what it is.

But you can break those goals down, whether they're ones that you set for yourself with Iris it for you, breaking them down into smaller, you know, parts. And then like really just appreciating the smaller victories in it because ultimately, you know, not getting those dopamine hits because you have to delay the gratification to until I can play this entire piece perfectly breaking it down and setting little dopamine checkpoints. Can Help a lot.

And also I mean specifically you know when it comes to practicing I wish I really wish. I wish I had done this back in the day but you know anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. Really like you know cleaning your route. Like you know the amount of times I don't clean my room because it's like, well, I know I'm not going to do a huge Epic Cleaning session so I'm gonna,

you know, just not do it at all. We'll just pick your clothes up off the floor and throw them into one corner of your room. But do that like that counts, that counts like it counts, and it gives you a little dopamine it, you know, and so with practicing, you know, you don't have to go down in a whole room and do a whole thing just while you're on the computer sit there and doodly-doo all like one of the see. Look at look at this, we almost made this educational at the

very end. Haha. Split it in, under the radar boosh. But one of the best Productions that I was ever in was a production of troilus and Cressida, and I was obviously playing Cresta. And it was the top billing. Huh? I couldn't I'm sorry never throws me to make that joke but I guess I've played Hamlet. So technically you've top telling our podcasts, it's alphabetical Eric, because I'm more important CIO, I just got really concerned about the order of the alphabet and I do too.

Oh shit, oh shit. Who Among Us was not just singing, the alphabet song in their head but also they change the alphabet song. Did you know this? No it is. They did they change the alphabet song? Look it up. It's one of the most distressing things to ever happen to me. Okay. I'm gonna have to move past that immediately wrote A change, the alphabet song and it's the worst thing. Um, but I was I was there as and I'm using this Specifically as an example.

Because I think it's a good, like, practical thing is that there is a speech that I was struggling with and it was and it wasn't speech. I had the first part of the speech. I had the second part of speech. There's one line. There's one line that I could not get, but I kept going through the whole speech. I kept going through the whole speech and of going through the

whole speech. And finally, like that advice came from somebody that I was working with who was like stop working on the whole fucking speech. You idiot like, you know, the speech. Just don't know that line. And so I literally spent 25 minutes drilling that she beloved knows. Not that knows, but this and that I got it, you know? Yeah, my one of my smaller lead, small dopamine checks. That's right. What a my teacher is he gave me

a list of arpeggios. So like cords broken into notes, do it. Ooh, and it was a, you know, with guitar like there are books and books Of just patterns to play with your fingers. And but it was just one measure would be one pattern measure to would be a different pattern that measure three different pattern and I was playing it straight through the page. So this arpeggio than this arpeggio them, this our pendulum, this arpeggio.

And I went back the next week and told him, that that's what I was doing and it was like, are when you go to the gym do you walk? And I was like, ha but when you go to the gym, would you do one rep on this machine and then one rep on this machine and then one rep on and just keep going. On the gym like out of, would you sit at one machine and do all the stuff and then go to the next one. And so that's how that was like, that's fucking, that's a

brilliant analogy. And so with music it was like, do that one arpeggio that the Reps, you know? And that one is just a better way to get a pattern under your fingers, but to it also provided me with those dopamine hits. It was like, take this one pattern and I would do that for however, many, you know, measures just do it over and over and over. And then at the end of that, I was like, oh my god dude! Check it out.

I can totally play this or Geo pattern that I couldn't play, you know, 15 minutes ago or whatever that's a win, move on to the next one. You know, like enjoy that for a little while then move on to the next one. And so it's like snuck its way in there. Those little achievable little dopamine hits. It was nice. That's really cool. Do you know my favorite thing about our podcast is Eric,

what's that? It's we've basically become the goddamn Lord of the Rings. And how many times we end our podcast before actually ending our podcast? It's a scandal. Get off the white coming in through the window. I was thinking of His endgame a far, less hybrid culture reference, but 14 endings just all those Landings. You're like oh that was a really good movie though. We're back in the 40s. Like oh yeah, but cello, for some fucking reason that's fine. But you know why? That is Eric?

Why? Because we have ADHD that is true. We do indeed have that the that thing we do have that. Well, everybody. Hold on. I'm just going to do the clothes on to podcast. It'll be great ready. And game is highbrow. F, young volcano. Sorry, I just wanted to say, I've I was as soon as As I came out of my mouth, I was like, how dare I and game is eyebrow. That movie is a masterpiece. Honestly, honestly Kitty third ending up with the twitch chat. I'm not argue.

I'm in fat ugly, agreeing with the twitch chat and Avengers, endgame. Katie, I am absolutely. Not kidding. I will die on. This hill was filmed in front of a live studio level of art to see you next week on and remember to drink your water. Remember to drink her meds, remember to not get Your noodles in a knot and we'll talk to you later. See you next week. God and inquest. Everybody, that's the end of the episode this week. Again, we just want to say thank you so much for listening.

This was a tough episode for us to record but it was something that we honestly really wanted to do and actually it was so hard for us to record that. We have an entirely different version of this episode that we decided not to use, and we will be putting that on The patreon as bonus content, if you want to

check that out. Speaking of the patreon I realized this is perhaps an oddly timed episode to do this in. But I think it's funny that we just spend a long time talking about how we're sad about music and then I'm going to close the episode with a song about our new patreons but I am a man of my word and a man of honor and I promise that if you sign up for the patreon this month I would put your name in a song and so Here is the song that I wrote

for our new patreons this week and I want to be very clear. I'ma need you all to Buckle in because y'all really wanted your name and songs. So here we go. We just want to say thank you to you for signing up for our Our patreon, because it helps us carry on our mission to educate, and advocate for neurodiversity and other stuff like ADHD. Ha ha. So thank you to live and swetlana, and also Cody, and Ben and Jessica. Don't forget, Chelsea and Rich and Krista and Daniel and Rebecca. Joe.

And also Candace, don't, you know, and Aaron stopped by as well with Alex and Kate and Ryan, and Theresa, and Aaron and Amy, and papa Mo, and tears in my coffee. Who wants also bought me a burrito, there's Jake, and k-k-kitty, and genetic and Alexandra Lee and ID, maybe it's it. I'm not sure. But also Rebecca and Sylvie and Nova, and Teresa, and Lizzie. And also, Matthew, let's not forget Matthew, you helped us

build a community around. Education and advocacy about eighty HD. You're so goddamn fucking grateful. I'm not crying. You're crying. Shut up. It's fine. Thank you so much. And also, if you sign up for the month of April, I will write you another song. It'll have the same chords. I'm not gonna learn new chords. Let's not go overboard. So, Thank you all so much. I'm sorry. I deflected with the joke. Thank you all so much. I'm sorry. I deflected with the joke.