Hi everyone, it is like 11:00 on Sunday morning. We were supposed to post on Thursday, an episode about relationships and ADHD, but you know, what happens, Katie and I kind of freaked out a little bit, not happened, not happen with happened. Is that episode did not happen. Procrastinated. And then it became a huge deal in our heads. It became our impossible task. Exactly. And so now we're like, wait a minute, let's make an episode about what What the hell just
happened? Well, and why it's four days after the post date and we still haven't done it. Which, by the way, I of course I don't blame you for it.
It's honorable, it's I mean, it's I think it's important to talk about like that was actually like why I suggested this premise as the premise of this episode because I feel like we spend a lot of time talking about how successful our systems are and how like we figured out that you like hang your shit on the wall or you like Mystery been in your in your house or
whatever. But like every so often, I have this profound moment where I remember that not only do I have ADHD but it like profoundly affects the way that I interact with the world and I'm just so frustrated. I'm so frustrated, I'm so angry. Like we were supposed to we are supposed to post this on Thursday at 9:00 in the morning. It is Sunday at 11 a.m. and we're recording. Hoarding it. Yeah, which means that up
sensibly. Like, I don't believe this episode is going to be up until at least Monday, like I like to think that we can like bang this out. Yeah. But I get I get really frustrated with myself like all the time. Yeah. Like for me I the frustration begets frustration. Yeah. Because I'm like so mad at myself initially. Like all right, we were supposed to do and then we're an hour late, you're supposed to recording an hour ago.
On what on Thursday or whatever day we initially into the record and then I'm frustrated about that. So I will now I can't record because I'm really pissed off at myself and so then I get madder and so on and so on until eventually it's two days later and at that point it's like all right it's like an hour, it's like nothing. It's yes an hour of recording. Like it's an hour sitting out what you know and what's also please like I love talking to
you. Yeah. Like I do it all the time and for some reason I've got getting in my head and that This is this, I'm doable. Task means like now suddenly I'm like nervous to talk to you which lays what I do all day every day at school. I feel like there's like it's the difference the difference of recording a podcast versus having a conversation. Yeah. It's because we're just having a conversation then it's like us, having fun, and like, we're
friends and you're amazing. But when we have to say, okay, now we're going to define the parameters of having public, so it makes it so much harder counter to life. The ADHD Minds. It was like we're going to talk about this realm of things. Like, I'm constantly butting up against the edges. Like, oh, that reminds me of a story about a dinosaur Katie. But it wasn't even the topic, though. Like, that's, that's the thing. It's like, it wasn't like we were like, oh no relationships.
What can we possibly have to say that really? Well, we were prepared. Like we'd both been. We didn't know. I saw you take a bunch of notes that it happened to both of us at the same time because usually I feel like it's been like one of us The other was a sort of Keepers each other going. Yeah. But like this week it just like was that perfect like crossover. It's really useful and I make hand gestures in this audio. Yeah medium. Yeah, but it's great.
That's making a crossover. Think of like the hand gesture locking finger. Kind of like a. Here's the church. Here's the steeple sort of situation. But yeah, I was like, I don't know. So that I just got, I don't know. But I just want to talk about that, I guess. Yeah. Well because I think like, We're at what like what I want to do. I hope this is interesting podcast content when I when I'm about to say because it's about us.
But what I want to do, what I think we can do is is reveal the ugly underbelly of it sometimes because I think a lot of hot gas and a lot of ways it's all like look I have my stuff perfectly together and here's how you can too.
Yeah. When the fact that is is there's a lot of pathos is a lot of suffering involved and I think when we feel alone and that's suffering, it's Detrimental to our mental health, have a moment because we're suffering, but it also stops us from moving forward because we think we can
nobody else goes through this. We can't talk to anybody about it. And so, I mean, so, a big thing that I always try to do to myself, would always recommend to other people is just the concept of self-forgiveness or at least just a self objectivity, like just being like, all right, I didn't record on the day that I was supposed to record that I plan on recording.
So what now being mad at yourself Well, for that, and being frustrated, and being angry and thinking, you know, you're a piece of shit is ultimately just not useful and you can't control how you feel like, you know, your feelings just happened. It's not like you can just say, I am not going to be mad, but it indulging in that and just look like in allowing that to be your guide, it gets itself it because it makes you more Angry Anymore. And so what I try to do and it's
time usually unsuccessfully. So I feel bad giving us advice like I want some Master of it, but it's story of my life at this point, but is just trying to not be so mad at yourself and things like this happen. How do you, how do you? And I'm genuinely asking because like, this is something that like, I can't like we were supposed to post on Thursday at 9 a.m. like that, that was like the goal which means that like hypothetically were recording this On Sunday at 11.
But like we had Wednesday, and Tuesday, and Monday, and Sunday, and Saturday, really, you know what I mean? And so like, so, Because I struggle with accountability right? Because like I know my own patterns and I know my own self destruct patterns and this is something that I've talked to you about and I've told you and I don't mind telling people who are listening, like I am terrified that all of this is going to go away like I am so. So because I love this, I love this podcast.
I love getting to do this with you, but I see those patterns in my own life. All the time is the thing is due on Thursday at 9 but I say, oh I can do it Thursday at 5 and nobody mind. Then I was like, oh it's Thursday at 5:00. I can do it on Friday morning and then I can do it on Friday and then go, I'm already late. So I might as well just be. Yeah. And and then it snowballs into like and then they never made another podcast episode ever again.
And like, I get so worried about that because it's like, I don't want to forgive myself and I don't want to be kind to myself in those moments because I want to hold myself accountable. And it's like for me accountability. You is punitive if that makes sense. Yeah. And it's just like and because that's what I learned. I learned that being, like, being held accountable mean to getting in trouble because I'm
always running late. Yeah, I think something that I think about in a minute, terms of the mental health world is at some point, there's pragmatically, there's not a function in being a certain level of frustrated and angry and I'm a piece of shit about yourself. Yeah. Like on some level that's not pragmatic but also completely giving yourself carte blanche to to procrastinate and not do tasks is also not useful.
Yeah. So there's like this weird balance that that we have to strike that just as mental neurodivergent people but just humans in general is it's not useful to To a certain level of, you know, self pointed tip self self punishment is not useful, but also complete lack of accountability is not useful either. And so, especially like in the mental health world. I see all the time. Perhaps, you listening, and you Katie, I was well, a lot of videos basically, saying, you're
fine, it's okay. And I love that sentiment, but that also gives a lot of people excuses. What an ADHD World. A girl all the time is how can I get my friends to be okay with me interrupting them because I have ADHD. So I'm just going to interrupt them. Yeah. And it's something that I try to espouse delicately is, you know, it's not your fault that it's much more difficult for you to not interrupt people than somebody with ADHD, that is not
your fault. I'm so I'm sorry, that's not your fault, but it's still your responsibility to try to not be rude to other. People. So, your friends absolutely should understand that. It's harder for you to not interrupt and so such that they're more forgiving when you are, but that doesn't mean that you can just do that all the time. Similarly, if we're procrastinating in classic ADHD ways like, oh, I can do it in five minutes, I'll do it after I
was procrastinating. You know what we're doing with other other small productive tasks, to excuse ourselves for not doing the big productive, test procrastinate e by the way, the term for that changed my life. When I learned that term when procrastinating in a productive way. Oh, So if we were to just be like oh well we have ADHD. So we're allowed to do that. Like that might make us feel like better in the moment but it's not going to help us produce the podcast.
Yeah. And so there's always this balance of like forgiveness and acceptance and it's okay, but also still be a. Well, I still want to be better because ultimately, I and you want to make this podcast and want to do the recording and want to create hopefully useful content for our for all of you listening. Because As we care about you and we love you and all that. And so it's not. If the goal is to is to make your life better, you listener. Your life better, then us
completely giving ourselves. Just well, we have an HD. Therefore, we don't actually have to do the podcast or do it on time or do it. That would be doing you a disservice and, and I don't want to do that. And so there's as much as self-forgiveness is important self-accountability is also important. How does it mean? It's like, I feel like we're talking a lot about the, the podcast like, There's press this consent like this thing that we didn't do.
But I'm trying to think of like I want to talk about like how much this fucking happens. Yeah, you know what I mean? Because it, I don't know. Like today is just a day where like, I'm really, really frustrated that my brain and I and I have that sometimes and like most of the time like I'm good about being like, okay, well, like can't help it. I can do my best to do the things that I know will help.
But like to, I'm just like mad. I'm just like angry and I Make this joke all the time and like whenever I say it is most of the time a joke, but it's like, do you know that there are people who just wake up and get shit done. Like, they're just people who get out of bed and they just wake up and they're awake. And they just are, like, well time to clean the refrigerator and they do it and it just
happens. And like the fact that that is a feeling that I will never have and that is an experience that I will never experience. It's frustrating. Yeah. I think it it's there's just such a profound In fairness to it. It's an, it isn't fair. It's just like that's, that's just what it is. I mean, don't blow all, you know, of course, all people have their problems. It's not like everybody. There's some people are just, I mean, yeah, like process of elimination.
There are some people whose lives are the best. That's just, that's how it work. But, yeah, I think and I mourn for that, you know, I, I think I really wanted for that, like, knowing that certain things are just always going to be harder for me, like it's like, but then you also, Responsibility of accepting that, you know? Because like I could spend my whole life fighting that right, but I've actively chosen not to of actively decided to be like I'm not going to spend every
morning. Lamenting the fact that I don't want to get out of bed, I'm just going to get out of bed and go do the thing. What? Hopefully, but it runs a lot of the conversation. We had with burritos an idiot. Steve. Well, yeah, about body neutrality and mental neutrality. Yeah. As I think a lot about. So what we were talking about with with Laura about. So she is a gym owner and so she spends a lot of time working with people who want to change
their body in some way. And she sort of makes the argument or if you're if you're if you're starting from a place of self-hatred, going to a place of self love is a lot of distance to travel. So she argues well just get to neutral, just get to. This is my body like whatever. I like, dude, we're going to say how I feel about it.
This just is what my body is. And I think that translates wonderfully to mental health where I spend, I don't I was about to say we, but I spend perhaps you to do a lot of time and perhaps you listener as well. Spend a lot of time hating the way. My brain works resenting the way that my brain works wishing it were different, but that's not really useful.
I mean it's useful in some information gathered because I can recognize what I don't like and therefore like recognize when they're acting up but ultimately feeling that that you know, Indulging in that anger isn't particularly useful and then trying to go from that dark place of disliking your brain to a place of loving it. There's just that's a whole
journey. So trying to get to the center of his being like, this is the way that my brain is, this just is the way that it is, which is really hard. I think feeling some away about something is much easier than just looking at it being hurt. What actually is this thing.
And it also involves acceptance of things you don't like about yourself and That's that for me that's the hardest part is especially coming from like a classical music background, we're like doing something that seems impossible was just like a daily thing and you just keep going and keep going until it wasn't possible anymore accepting that like, oh, I can't practice my way. That's just what my brain is, was very difficult. It also makes me think of
something. I think of a lot, not in a religious way at all, but is the Serenity Prayer. Grant me the serenity to accept the things. I cannot change the courage to change the things I can. In the wisdom, to tell the difference because I think that's sort of how we operate like we think I think of like, if you were playing a video game and you appear in this world of the video game, you need first you'll you know you run around and you go. I can move this.
I can move that. Oh, I can't go through here. I can you just sort of poke around and just figure out what are the rules here? What can I do? This is going somewhere it like what can I do here? Those are the things you can't change and you learn that. There's Things you can do these things. I can move, I can pick up those things. Oh, these things that are trying to attack me, I can attack them back and stop them and it's it would not be useful to try to
change the rules of the game. You try to walk through walls that you can't walk through. Understanding what can be changed in. What can't be changed is just you can get necessary to know to navigate any given situation. So bell all the way back to Mental mental objectivity, or mental neutrality, like understanding. What is unchangeable? I have ADHD like my brain produces or has less tonic dopamine in there for like that.
All that that's just what it is. What I can change is how I respond to that is how I manage those symptoms and it's deeply unfair that we have to but life's not fair. Yeah. I mean I'm I agree like I'm not fighting this point but I feel like my struggle is that to take your analogy and expound on it is that my brain is constantly playing. In like an open-world format where there are cheat codes. I just don't know what they are.
So like, some days I can walk through the walls, some days I can, you know, open the trunk or whatever. And then some days, I can't. And so I feel like the open-world rules are always changing based on. Literally, like, just what you said like like just the dopamine levels in my brain, the serotonin levels in my brain and so it's like that's where I get Frustrated. Because it's like, sometimes it because it was always the same if I always woke up and I felt exactly the same, I'd be like,
okay cool. I know the rules. I know the parameters, I know this is what I can and can't do. I can't walk through the walls, but it's like, some days I wake up and I'm like, hell, yeah. We're going to the grocery store, big kid, doing baby, but then there's other days where I literally can't get out of bed because I am so sad. And that is so frustrating. It's perfect. Found Lee frustrating because it's like, I don't, it's the changeability like that's where that's where I get mad.
And then there's, you know, you've got all the little workarounds for like every type of day, right? Because I've had hopefully most of the types of days that I'm going to have and so like I know when I feel like this I do this or when I feel like that I do that but it just it's I don't know, like it's just I that's where I get frustrated. Yeah, I totally know what you mean.
I think because there's such an Infinity of things that could possibly happen that could cause us to feel a certain way a certain time like there's never, no two days are ever exactly the same. Nothing feel like? Yeah. Well those are just been like wow, like can we can we talk about depression? Yeah let's talk about your past. I mean you say what you want to say but like I just like I've been struggling with depression more than eighty HD lately, which sucks because most like
cause ADHD is manageable. I decided just make a list and I go. Okay. Today I'm going to power through this list and that is the list that I have to do and it sucks, but that's what I need to do. But like depression is just like there's there's no list, there's no, there's no pain or pay like it's just The what's gonna say the inky black void. But that just got that was too upsetting. It's I changed my mind at the
last minute I over thought. But yeah, I mean and that's, that's the thing is like, it's not, it's just, it's not a lack of focus, it is a lack of emotion. Yeah, you know, it's like there's no like ADHD. I feel like, you know, might prevent you from achieving a goal or the goal keeps Jing. And it's like uh but yeah for me with depression it's no out. No set of outcomes is preferable to any other set of outcomes. Yeah.
Like if I go to the post office then this happens if I don't then this happens and I do not I don't care which one it is W. So why would I do anything to try to make any given outcome happen? There's no goal want anything. And so it's not even like I failed at those things. Although, sometimes it does feel away. It's just like, who cares about anything? Who cares about what happens? Who cares about the world? Why Why would I even move from this back?
For me, it's cyclical because it like compounds on itself. So you've got your sad and you've got this ants, Patrick. Well, their stance and then because you have this adds a, you don't do tasks A and B. But then so, then task A and B are sitting on task C and D the next day. And then it's a b c and d the next day.
So then you've got EF and, you know, and so it becomes this like cycle where you're looking at what you haven't done and what your Trying to get accomplished and there's just more and there's more and there's more. And so it's just like you're buried under this like wave of tiny insignificant like washing the dishes.
Yeah, washing the dishes. Does not take that much time because what I have learned but it feels absolutely insurmountable some days and it's and that's so I've internalized it as it being embarrassing and I know that it's not, it's not fundamentally embarrassing that I can't do the
dishes. But like I have internalized and sort of like told myself over and over that it's embarrassing and I should be ashamed and I'm a fuckup and everybody else in the whole world, those are dishes all the time, like, why can't you and so like that learned behavior of of, that becomes part of that cycle? I think. Yeah. Like, embarrassment from yourself. Yeah, it really strange feel. I'm constantly bear. Oh yeah. Like, I'm embarrassed all the time.
Bears that like I'm embarrassed right now. Like I'm literally like sitting here recording this podcast. Thinking back to five minutes ago and going, oh my God, I can't believe I said that like I'm preliminary really embarrassed for every moment of my life trying to get the embarrassment out, really? I just yeah. It's like that's what you're saying about things. You know, not doing any be. Which then is stacked on top of
the c and d and so on so forth. That's I think I think one of the major places where my depression in my ADHD, just like combined into this cocktail of, like, you guys. Let's say so task, a is, do the dishes, but I don't so they pile up, right? And so, all of a sudden, I wasn't asked me. Well, now my counter is covered in trash and dishes. So that's another test. Task C is, you know, I have to plug in clean out, my whatever. Who knows? But they just keep piling up.
And now suddenly doing the dishes is I mean but it's not just doing the dishes. Yeah, it's like sorry sorry. I was using was pausing because I want to think the word. Suddenly doing the dishes is what's going to happen is is preceded by suddenly doing the dishes is preceded by proceedings afterwards happened before, see that? Yes, he did something it happens before it, right? Oh yeah, okay. Suddenly just a Litany of different tasks precedes doing the dishes.
So, in before you do the dishes, you have to clear off the counter. Before you clear up the car, you have to take out put all the trash in the trash can, but you didn't take the trash out as so that's full it can't fit anymore. So you have to take the trash out before you take the thing and then somewhere taking the trash out. But I was like oh that was my last trash bag if you get trash bags.
And so suddenly like your add just had ADHD has just all of this stuff to be ADHD about It's like all like I get to take rest over and over but it's actually productive because I actually do have to do all those things. It's in. It's like a weird. I mean so ADHD does, especially on diagnosed ADHD. Does baguette comorbidities like that's true? Apparently. Yeah, but this like this one's it's so it's not. It's almost so clever like they're conspiring.
Like the depression is like, hey I'm going to stop him from doing all these tasks. And then, later once he actually does, Get out of it. If he gets out of bed, then you can take the reins and make it impossible for him to action to, to do any of that massive chain of tasks. Because you're, it's just endless. It's like, oh, well, you need to get trash bags off. I'm gonna get trash bags. Look, I'm also low and dish
soap. They're getting some of those traits but so on, so on. So on down the line and then you realize that mountain again and then it's back to depression. Yep. And then it starts from doing more things, more things pile up. One day, you finally, get out of bed. And you're like, all right, To go. And then you ready to screws? Let's do all of it at. Let's do one percent of all of the things and you just and then he pressed back to bed. That's what it is for me.
I mean, is, well, that's what I was Matthew is, do you do 1% of all things or do you try to do all the things in one hunt? Like 100%? Well, I well that's so that ho-ho-home KV not. Because I think that might be the difference between you. And I don't think, I think I think our response is to that are different. Because I, so something that I have a flood of I've so many dive soap boxes in my closet on standby for this but just
waiting. But the diagnostic criteria for ADHD and depression, all of them are things that how they manifest from the appearance of an observer. So, to an observer, an ADHD person has trouble focusing like, no! No, we absolutely do not, we are Using all the time, just on this thing. This thing, this thing. And this thing, and this thing, and this thing until, you know, perhaps read Associated, which one then we aren't we missing anything. But all the different diagnostic criteria.
What is that asked re-engagement with a diesel fuel with ADHD? Have a big trouble with task re-engaging oils? Do a thing. Then we'll get distracted by thing. Where a person without ADHD, or executive dysfunction we go, oh I got distracted. Okay, back to task a TCP will just keep going down that Chain. So anyways all baffles me I know right but the the Lost of hold on. I got it. I'm leaving all this in because this example of I mean we are struggled bussing today. I am.
This is a this is a relatable like this is a very special episode of Impractical. If you have any HD you can see like hey other people do is to if you don't have any HD hey this is what it looks like sometimes silly. We don't I feel like we don't talk about this part. Like we we spend a lot of time trying to be really like educational and supportive and productive.
But like I also feel like maybe I don't see it's like important because that found it feels self-indulgent but like I feel like it's The acknowledging, the fact that, like sometimes we both get like this on the same day at the same time, like fucking sucks, dude. Yeah, fucking said it does. There's the, like, I think that's something that's not very well understood from people outside the ADHD community. And people who do have ADHD, but don't understand like the it
will is the pervasive decision. Yeah. Is that, it's not just, oh, I care. It's hard time. Doing the, I have a hard time doing chores. I've heard time. Filling out. Paperwork. Although, of course I do. I'm doing everything I've worked on, finishing sentences hard time. Like, remember it like standing up and remember what I'm doing to you. Well, just, I also want to finish my. Yeah. Sorry. Well, we'll just the diagnostic criteria. So, back to the Soap Box thing.
If I can remember the diagnostic criteria of these of depression ADHD, all are how they appear on the outside, generally, or there are written by people who have been watching from the outside, or on the inside they work in much more Cunning devious and often unfortunately, well perhaps fortunately profoundly interesting and interesting ways. And so for example, Oh oh you were saying Doom 1% the yes.
Alright so you would said that I had said that I do 1% of a bunch of new things and you said you're trying to 100% of those things like stolen all the same time which is where differences so I think for so for me, I'm trying to do everything. So 100% That I eventually get freaked out and just going like, you know, when you have so much to do in a day that you just take a nap instead. Like doesn't solve it.
You just go. Okay, nevermind, I'm just going to completely shift a minute, so I'll realize that the absolute optimal way of doing this is to do all this stuff, you know, to clear off the thing. And then turn and pull this dishes out of the sink and clean. The same thing done. And then I have this image of what the optimal way of doing this is, and that's what I should be doing and now that I'm aware of that if I'm doing it any other way than I'm just wrong and lazy.
So I have to do it that way, otherwise I'm just wrong and lazy and I get so overwhelmed by that that I end up starting to do that process. And I'm going I'm not going to do it that well freaking out and then just not doing it.
So I think, I think perhaps, I think perhaps you're more, I don't, you know, Captain to connote it with anything but like, perhaps you're more successful in that and that, in your pursuit of getting to that 100% because I think we both have that idea of like, alright, we're We're looking for the perfect process. We're looking for what Perfection is in this realm and perhaps we respond to that,
you're always. I mean this podcast, the reason I the past few days like every time it's like okay we're going to record it be like, well, you know, my mouth is dry and so I can't do it when I was right because that's not going. Then I'm gonna have to just gonna have a weird voice. The Old Timer. Oh well, I just woke up. So my voice is all. Well I can't do it now.
We got to wait, there's always something and that appears is procrastination and it's A lot of ways, it totally is procrastination but in my head, if you were to open up my head and look and see what, actually what's going on there, it's not that. I just don't want to do it. It's that I want to do it and the I have a perfect image of exactly what I want it to be in my head and if it's not going to be that then I'm not going to do it.
And so what appears as procrastination from the outside me making excuses for not doing? It is actually no no I really want to do it but I Could I would feel bad, I would feel like I've done the task a disservice if I were to do it right now, like that's it. So it's sort of the I have so much respect to the task which also, I mean, perhaps, that's just what procrastination is? I don't know, I'm alive only
ever been one person. I mean, it's kind of, but I also feel like there's like that weird dichotomy of, like, I want to honor the task and I wanted what it is. Like, it's doing the fucking dishes. Yeah, it just dishes, just wash the plate, you know.
Yeah. But I mean I guess the question that I was going to ask is like do you because I know like what my pattern is like I absolutely I talked about earlier like I absolutely recognize the like I put it off and then I put it off and then it just goes away and I like never do the same again. But like do you do you have those patterns that you see in your own life? Like when you're like, don't want to do the thing or when you Are like, doing the thing you get. So, like, caught up in it.
Are there like specific things and then, if there are part two of the question from whatever, what are you doing? How do you, how do you fix it? Like how do you get out of that cycle or do you? I think there are two like Realms that occur in like. So if your consider like tasks were think things that I intend to do phones, you categorize things that I need to do that. I perhaps don't enjoy doing the dishes. Chores, that kind of stuff.
And then the other realm is things that I want to do things like making little models, things like making podcast with you, things like recording, Christmas albums with you, spoiler, that's the other ones things that I want to do. And my patterns with both are different. So, my parents with chores that I don't want to do, that's when I go on that digression thing. Yeah. I want to do it so well like I want to do well so I can feel proud of myself. Like I hate doing dishes but I
still look at that. Like, that's my duty as a person to just like suffer, the slings and arrows and shit. This is very good shape here. Thank you. And in my sort of sort of like honoring the task when everything will honoring the art artistic to. Well, okay, that's this is what it looks like. So my pattern with Troy, This is that digression in order to come do this task to completion? I have to do this, preliminary
task. Yeah, in order to do that, task to the completion to completion, I have to do another preliminary task and it just goes all the way down until almost every time II. I will come. I will have forgotten a certain distance in that chain. So if you start like, imagine starting at like the top of a chain and you're adding links to the to the chain, as it's like hanging, you know, like I'll do the dishes before that have to clean up the counter. Before I clean off the counter.
I need to change the trash like going All the way down at some point. I can only remember a certain height of that chain. I can only remember the previous three things a given time, so, do you? So then I then I just genuinely. Don't remember what I was doing.
So, do you reverse engineer tasks like, so rather than start with like dishes and then notice that you're out of sponges, do you look at the dishes and look in the sponges and then look at the, like, do you reverse engineer at every task? Or are you just like coming up with, like additional tasks in the moment? Both I think. Most frequently I'm reverse engineering. And if that's you mean doing a directly related tasks? Yeah. Like If You Give a Mouse a Cookie, right? Right.
Yeah. If you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna want milk and if he's gonna want milk, then he's gonna want this other thing if he's gonna want. That was a great analogy, thank you. If you don't read that book, get that photo fun fact, I recently found out that the mouse is the bad guy in that story. I was informed of a, I've always thought that the mouse was like the unsung hero because like I'm not. Okay, no. I have a And about this. I have a real Ranch. Hey kiddo.
Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. This is going some. Okay. Cool. As long as you remember, we went whatever. The what the hell we were together? We were talking about reverse engineering paths but I have a theory about If You Give a Mouse a Cookie as it relates to ADHD because I have always read If You Give a Mouse a Cookie about the the importance of persisting
through a task. Hey, so what is what is the plot of a figure than the plot of If You Give a Mouse, a Cookie is, there is a mouse who wants a cookie and he, but like, but he understands that there's more to just getting the cookie is like, you have to get milk and then you have to have a napkin and then you have to have a plate. Whatever. Because like to me, it is literally a book about executive
dysfunction. Yeah, that is what I've always thought if you like I thought it was an example of executive dysfunction in. Like if Katie goes to take a shower, then she needs to find her hair brush, but if she needs to find her hairbrush, then she also has to like, empty the Trash. And like I always thought that book was about fucking the experience that I was having and then like Chris was like, no, that's not what them about.
I was like, what and who is he to say shocked what the book is about and but then I asked a whole bunch of people. I was like, so the mouse and and and they're like, oh yeah, fuck that bass. And I was like, I know but I'm the mouse. Well, the whole idea is that the mouse is getting something from somebody else. Yeah, they're not doing those, they're not making a cookie for themselves. And going like, oh, I'm getting then doing all those things, they're making somebody else do it. Yeah.
I don't like, I guess like, I don't know. I was a kid, maybe. But like, I always saw myself in the mouse and then I was shocked to learn. What's really see myself in the mouth said that cause I was just like, oh, it's like me, it's what I go to do the dishes. When I go to take a shower like there's 47 extra Kelly gets anyway. So now that's very valid and it gets really really heat up about it, man. Well, I think so when it comes to chores it's a dyke.
One of related tasks. Yeah. And which is made worse by my failure to do those tasks in the past, take out the trash and whatnot. Because if my trash was already taken out, then that's something that would. If I had just had enough soaked. If I will, we forget to take the garbage out so you can take the garbage out. Yeah. Oh my God. That is like, that is, I think I don't get any more mad at myself, so sometimes my trash targets. So high Sauron starts to get a
little jealous. Terrible joke and you should feel bad. But so that, and, and that point, like, and this is one of those things where, like sort of, there's like a forgiveness. But also accountability thing we're like, I, if I cleaned took out the trash regularly and sort of took note in my soap, is low and had a list of like, oh, get dish soap, with the store because I'm low.
If although, if I had been doing all those things and doing the dishes is a very easy task and it's in it's an isolated task. Because all those other ducks are In a row and see, just go, you put a video and you throw them in the thing. So, in terms of combating ADHD facilitating that mise en Place baby. I mean, it so amazing. Plus, if I've gone rents Katie's hear this all the time but you perhaps haven't Meson plus is a culinary term. I'm a cook. Professionally is a culinary
term. It's French for put to put in place. And so in a kitchen, if I'm going to make you an Went in like in a kitchen setting, a professional kitchen setting. I'm not whisking the eggs right then I'm not dicing the onions, right? Then I'm not doing all the stuff, grating the cheese, right? Then all that stuff. I've prepped out and done earlier and I have them in front of me. I have grated cheese.
Right. Like it, within Arm's Reach, I have eggs with an arm reaches all that, so that when you say, hey can you make me an omelet? I am 95% done with the omelet already and I just have To make it happen in finish it.
So that concept of mise en. Plus basically you're facilitating tasks in the future mise en place is the process of doing little steps earlier such to facilitate a future tasks as or is how I understand it and so things like having your trash capable of receiving more trash that's amazing. Plus having your counters clear, he's on plus having dish soap, knees, and plus. And those things are insanely hard to do for a person with ADHD.
I know this because I Do it professionally and I've been doing it for almost a decade and I still like, suck at it compared to people who would like. It's it doesn't occur to me to do that. So trying to to get those things in your life and don't think of it, taking out the trash as being like, oh this is a chore that I have to do live trash like is my master now and I have to take the trash out, think of it. As I'm later on I'm I'm facilitating me being able to
put more trash. I'm doing a favor to that future person rather than just being like oh, right now, I have to take out the trash. I think it is. No, I'm creating the space that I'm deserving of being in a facilitates, the ease of my mental health mates, I guess. Can I tell you a weird thing that I've never told you before, but I feel inspired as moment. Please please please please, every single time you bring up mise-en-place, plus, plus whatever. He's on pause music Applause.
Yes, every time you bring it up, I get physically angry. I'm not I'm not joking. Like, there's something about the idea of mise en place that somewhere deep in my brain makes me so upset, and I don't know why, but it's like every time, like, it doesn't matter. And I like, and I like, watch you, like, I know you, like, we are friends. Like, I watch you do like these on Place stuff, like, all the time. And I'm like, yeah. Clearly works. Like, it's great.
And I'm happy, like, whatever. And then you're like, well, you know what you should do and I'm like, fuck that. Fuck that shit. Fuck you, like, I get so angry. Do you think it's do? You think? It's because, and I'm not, I'm honestly asking, oh no, I'm I'm unpacking this right now with you in real time. So side-by-side. And you think, do you think it's because your rational brain acknowledges that? That's good. That's a correct way of doing it. Like, that's good.
But your executive dysfunction and the irrational parts of your brain, make it incredibly hard for you to do that. So historically you haven't been good in it at it but you do acknowledge that it is a good way of doing things and so you're frustrated with your. So that's like that's I don't mean to project but that's how like it was weird because like I'm like I'm literally thinking about it. I think it's, I think it's a little bit of that like I think
it's in my mind. It makes a lot of sense like that would be like I understand that that would be like a very practical way of doing stuff. But I also I think for me, The bigger part of it is that I hate admitting that I need help. I hate admitting that. I can't get out of bed some days. I hate admitting that there are like special stupid accommodations and things that I need. Because like, I have
internalized, this idea. And I have absolutely convinced myself that like I have to be okay. I have to be okay, 100% of the time I could never admit fault, I could never. Admit weakness and having to like, mise-en-place my apartment, or my wife or whatever is absolutely admitting that. I can't do it on my own and I like, and I hate that. I hate that so much and it's just it's internalized ableism.
Like I'm not pretending like it's okay I'm not pretending like that's a healthy idea but I think oh we're getting. So like traumatic real quick, but like I think what it came Down to or comes down to is the fact that like no one ever believes me, no one ever believed that there was anything wrong. No one ever noticed that there was anything wrong but there was there was always several things wrong and so I always had to be fine.
I always had to be okay, I wasn't allowed to not be and so I had to build these structures and I had to build these systems that not only worked for me but gave the appearance of being normal and Being okay? And mise-en-place saying is an admission that things might not look normal on the surface, like on the surface level to, like, come into my house, my house does not in my mind, look like the house of a normal person. Because it is, what about, you know, their pile Boxes by the
front door or whatever. You know. And I think like that has a lot to do with it. As I think that I just Every time I have to do something, every time I have to use a system, it is admitting that I'm not. Okay? And that makes me angry at myself and that comes back to bring neutrality. Yeah, let's just say that's really. Yeah, I think that that's really interesting. Because yeah, then cut that and
all this stuttering out. But I think it's a lot about accepting things that you can't change. Like, in your, I mean, you go get you like, you can't control your feelings. It's not like, like Katie. You're wrong for feeling bad about that. You should stop it. Yeah. Like you because you can't just do that but acknowledge it but trying to get to that. Yeah, that point of just like, what, what what it, what is it, what is the thing, what is this brain of mine that I've been given?
How does it work? And what can I do? And I think like, so, I mean, of course, you're in everybody's emotions, are valid. But from my frankly literal perspective, like if I were to see you, do some mise-en-place thing, like putting coffee in the coffee maker and filling it up the day before. So that when you wake up you just click the thing. That makes it, which is by the
way prime plus I wouldn't think. Oh wow, you're so So I don't know week or whatever that you have to do this thing to make it so it's like you're so bad at mornings. I magic that maybe like you're so bad at mornings. Yeah that you have to prep it all out the night before because you just you just suck. So bad at doing mornings. I wouldn't think that at all. I don't think anybody would. I think they'll be like, that's really smart.
That's a really good idea. And so whip with them invent, of course, the that's that doesn't help. In terms of like what's going on in your own.
Right. That's why I think it's billion when you said embarrassed in front of yourself because that's such a profoundly detrimental and strange thing that is all that's that's one of the hardest things for me to recognize myself doing is what I'm embarrassed in front of myself because like, well, like making tick-tocks, for example, like if I'm doing it in public, you know, I'm holding up my phone. You watch me do this earlier today?
I'm only at my phone, like, even if nobody's watching me, I'm sort of weirdly embarrassed like I'm like look at me holding up my phone. I look like a you know I look like I should be on a loading screen on GTA 5 which is a joke for three people but nobody's like I don't I would argue that what I'm doing is fine, I would argue that anybody doing. This is fun, there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing, but for some reason, I've so internalized it, I get
embarrassed. And I it is taken me until like yesterday or this morning to notice that. And so I think that like the The, the Judgment that comes from our own brains. I hope I have that with. This is really oddly specific, but I have that with exercise videos, really. I can't like, like, we're driving like yoga or like, whatever, like on YouTube I cannot do them. I like, I like it is the weirdest shit ever. But like, I can't like, it doesn't matter. Like, I can be home, completely
alone. The shades drawn, the curtains closed. What I cannot do. Sighs videos because I'm I'm too embarrassed, huh? I'm too embarrassed of it. Like I and it's like this weird thing because like I like I really like yoga like I used to do yoga like a lot and that I was like, oh, I can just do like videos at home. I was like the shame of it or like it's the weirdest shit, dude. Oh my gosh. I get that way. Katie and the world with reading, that's why I don't
read. Really I don't for one I've ever forever to, I very rarely read books, I reference books pretty frequently but I very rarely just like open a buddy down and read and I honestly would have to unpack for a while. Why? But I sort of get the feeling of like, you know, have you ever been in like in a position like you're a kid and, you know, some in your you look at your room or like when you're a kid, if you had a roommate, when you're gonna put its let's let's say you're a kid.
Now, you have a room, you look at your room, it's dirty. And you think, you know, this is my room like I'm going to I'm going to clean it because I want to and I want to like my space to be nice or whatever like you decide right to clean your room. Right. And then right, then when your parents or somebody yells up like hey, Eric clean your room and also you're Fuck you. I'm not cleaning my room. Get out of here. How dare you?
That's how I feel about reading books is, I've been told for one reading is extremely hard for me. It's one of the worst parts of ADHD is is reading is extremely hard for me. Like, I just not dyslexia like I can read the word. Yes. But just it's so my whole like life, it's like doing.
The reading is always been something that somebody has had to tell me to do, even though I really like Fucking love reading and I love Lou ideas that like I love all everybody it's just hard so it's always been somebody telling me to do it and so now when I do it because I just want to, I just imagine, you know, Miss Rose in the swag, you know, my seventh grade, whatever teacher like being like. Good job Eric. Yes you do.
Yes, hahaha. Like she was like, she won because now I'm reading and so, I feel embarrassed. I feel dorky, I feel like I'm I'm giving in to the will of all those people who made me sad for so much time. And so, that's really a huge reason why I don't read his because I can't, I just feel they're like, applause and I'm like, like my child self is like how dare you do what they say or
act. Like you're beat, you know, you've seen Fight Club like ice off my club at that exact moment in my life when that started to happen. But I didn't know it's, I don't know what to even say about that. But hook a number of tasks are At like doing dishes, like, I feel like that's letting the work win. This is what somebody would tell you to do and you're letting that hypothetical person win and so by not doing the dishes and not, you know, taking care of
myself. I'm sort of sticking it to this nobody created and I think that's kind of where the embarrassment from the cell physicists that those voices in my head, I don't know. That makes sense. I do have some important news. What's that? Our producer Brian has just informed me that our breakfast is Iraq. Oh my gosh, I really want really want breakfast. That's really, this is really good podcast content with there's a waffle know. There's waffles up front, there's waffle well.
Okay everybody, thank you so much for hanging out with us during this episode. We're sorry that we're late but we figured we might as well just to give make this episode a glimpse into What? I don't want to say failure. I want to qualify it as like failure but like you know we're people to and and you know sometimes we'll talk about ways to make your ADHD better and help yourself and sometimes we're just going to show you examples of what it can be because I think that's important.
I think it's important. I think it's it would be absolutely disingenuous for us to pretend like we always have our shit together because we don't and I think that's part of it. Like I think that if like Listen to me is really important and advocacy is really important, but I think to be a good Advocate and a good educator, you have to be realistic and like ADHD is not all fucking squirrels and superpowers and rainbows.
It's a lot of sitting around being angry at yourself because you were supposed to drop a podcast four days ago. And you're just now getting around to it. I mean, I think your waffle gets cold on the front steps. Oh gosh, because we forgot about the breakfast. Yeah, we did. Oh my gosh. Anyways, everybody be kind to yourself, please be lovely to yourself, you deserve, happiness and love and all that stuff. And I promise if you promise that I'll try to do the same
Katie you went on that. Sure. All right, cool. We're In It Together. I just thought of High School Musical, We're All in This Together. My buddy whooping, cheers, he looked with my other guy. He's a basketball player, I do it. It's at the gym Zac Efron.