Hello and welcome back to infinite Quest. So as you may know, by now Katie and I both struggle with depression as well as ADHD in this past week. Our depression has really been running wild so the tone of this episode might be a little bit different I'm not going to clean it up too much so I'm going to leave in the stutter is an alms because one thing that Katie and I aspire to do as well as educate people about these mental disorders is just paint
an honest accurate. Draw a picture of what they actually look like. At the top of the episode. We talk roughly about what we've been experiencing is couple days. Then we move into sort of generally what our depression is to us. And then we move on to tips for people who love somebody with depression and would like to support them. And we end the episode with a couple things that we'd like to
say to you the listener. If you are feeling depressed things, we try to remember when we are depressed. Thanks again for listening, we're really happy you're here. How do we, how do we start this episode? Eric to find a pencil? Okay, we're doing a great job so far. Alright, I have a pencil. I have an infantile. I'm really proud of you that you found a pencil that fast like I'm in this moment. It's a genuine respect for your pencil findings.
All about that, that peg board on the wall that I always shoot in front of that is that's not for show. I keep Pens pencils brushes. I know you can't stuff like pens and pencils over there thing is. I honestly don't know what I keep up there. That's that's another part of the problem. It's just I have some stuff up there. That's awesome. All right. Hi everybody. Gosh sorry I'm the worst person. No, I'm not. That's fine. That's amazing. I'm talking about my friend that way.
Okay, here we go. I'm just forgot to put my thing here. I ain't mine won't stay on my microphone, so I just took to start it off. I said if I discover that, I don't use this, I should have for those clothes, those plosives started. Close this, right, anybody with misophonia? Hi everybody, this week's episode. I don't remember what episode number, this is. I think it's 20, this episode is going to be about ADHD and depression because over the last three ish days up till kind of
still. Now, I've been really depressed. I've hardly gotten out of bed. I'm sleeping. Hang on like my raw mattress you know there's like no sheets on it or anything. It's just my mattress and a pillow and like a blanket. That's too small.
I will, I took my sheets off my bed because I was like, I'm going to wash these and then I immediately got super depressed and was like, I'm not going to wash these but I'm also not going to put them back on my bed because I already took the dirt a little bit, dirty sheets back on my bed. So there's just been a pile of dirty sheets on my floor and I've been sleeping on my raw mattress. Anyways, so I think that for you Yeah, thanks.
I don't like it either, but, you know, thanks for your support. Katie. You like use you personally and thanks for your support listeners for, I don't know, being wonderful and around and listening to us and saying nice things on my Tick Tock, and, to the email and stuff. Was that an intro? I don't know if I was an intro, that sounds like, it was an intro, but I think people appreciate hearing it, you know, let's go. Yeah, I think I hope so. So this episode is about
depression straining. It's going to be a weird episode of you weird episode. Yeah. Disclaimer, first off according to cite sources, cited, by attitude, magazine depression is estimated to be two point seven times more prevalent among adults with ADHD that among the general adult population. And studies also sorted by ADHD maggot or 80 attitude magazine. So that about 30 percent of people with ADHD experience, a depressive episode or have a mood disorder at some point in their lifetime.
So, the two are on paper. Were related but they also I think have some interesting just like internal under the hood interplay in a person who has ADHD and depressions head. Would you agree with that Katie Osiris? I'm not gonna lie to you Eric. Did I just steal your know? You just like you just went so fat. Like you went so fast into the science that I didn't, my brain didn't have time to like change gears so you just like, said words at me and I like I'd had no time to prepare.
Like I was just like, what? What? Oh, god were making content like I well if startled well I think like I don't think this episode is really about the science. Since I just wanted to say that to like point out that there absolutely is a documented correlation between ADHD and depression sort of get that out there.
Yeah. Well I was looking at some studies to when we kind of toyed around about what we wanted this episode to be. And one of the statistics that I found that was really, really interesting was based on a study done in 2006 by a dude named dr. Turgay and dr. Gates Ran a bunch of studies and found that in this is the part where it gets upsetting really quickly.
That seventy percent of people diagnosed with ADHD may experience, depression in their lifetime and conversely people who have been diagnosed with, like clinical depression tend to have rates of ADHD that are between like 30 and 40%. Whoa, that is a like. Yeah. So it's like if you don't have Have wow. It's like, you know, like one or the other, but like they're both and that's like a shocking like 70%.
That's compared to. If I remember correctly, the overall population average of people with ADHD is like thing. It's 4.5% in women and just it's a bit above that in men, diagnosis rate. That's like a staggeringly
larger percentage of people. Yeah. And and if you look at the rates of like so and then there's been all of these Their studies done it again, like, we don't need to get a ton into the science, but I just I like science because I think it's interesting, but like, there's been a lot of other studies done that look at other comorbidities. So things like depression, chronic depression anxiety about, like obsessive compulsive disorder. And in all of those, all of those, the rates of ADHD are
much higher. In those people who have gotten those diagnoses Her diagnosis. I believe is how the science people say. And that that's profound right? Like that is I like for me. I mean I talk I say this all the time, I say this constantly, like we don't talk about the connections between like the comorbidities. We talk about ADHD as though. First off like getting good grades in school, is the end-all be-all of of how ADHD affects
your life. But then when you start looking at statistics, like 70% of people with ADHD have depression, you know, Eating Disorders, addiction Sleep Disorders, like sexual In the, like all of those other things and they're all related in some ways to depression, like, depression, affects your sleep, and your sexuality and your whether or not you use substances to cope like they're also tied together. But the conversation still is like well my seven-year-old won't.
You know, do is reading homework and I get so frustrated. Yeah, I think it goes to that insidiousness of these of ADHD and depression that we've referenced before that it gets characterized so much by. I don't want to immediately go into like the media. But it gets characterized so much in so many ways as this school disorder that affects young boys that makes them, you know, rambunctious and Loud and won't do their reading. When it's in fact, it has its
fingers in so much. It has its fingers in in eating disorders and sex and I mean incarceration rates, it's insane. And the fact that it's characterized as this sort of honestly, in a lot of ways, a lot of people think of, as sort of being funny, like I remember there's a the movie Accepted with Justin Long. Know what others are. So there's this movie called accepted. It came out just over 10 years ago. It's Justin long and Jonah Hill. It's a comedy movie. Made their own College.
Yeah, they make their own college is that like like underwater basket weaving, or remember this? Well, it should have been sure, doesn't matter, but well. So there's this basically, yes, it's a great movie. You should definitely watch it, but there's a kid in that movie. There's a character in that movie, who has ADHD I He calls it a TD at the time but he's yeah, his whole character is that he has ADD and he's doesn't sit still and he's like virus.
He's just this caricature of ADHD and I think stuff like that really detracts from the attention or detract from the importance of paying attention to these calm aborted comorbidities that come up with it and it makes perfect sense that these comorbidities would come up with ADHD, particularly depression like my depression. Started really early and it started looking back largely because I wasn't performing the way that I wanted to in school. I was probably I think I was 11.
The first time I told my parents that I wish I'd never been born. But I think the ADHD the I noticed, all of my, you know, my classmates could sit there and quietly read or all of my classmates had better penmanship than me and all of my classmates, you know, didn't feel the urge to make a joke every You know, time they possibly could and get as much attention as possible. Not that those things are directly related to ADHD although some of them absolutely
are. But that bread my depression where I became so insecure about the way that I behaved, or the way that I wished, I would behave that I started. Combating my, I guess my class cloudiness, with depression, I would basically in order to try to stop myself. Elf from talking a lot or fast or loudly or getting excited.
I would recede into myself because I had like taught myself that that was a bad thing to be and so I sort of that and that's when like my depression met my ADHD and they were like oh hello ADHD. I'm depression. Oh, hello depression. I'm ADHD. This is going to be the beginning of a long and beautiful friendship. Well, beautiful to them, I suppose. Although I do try not to think of them as being malicious but sometimes it's hard. It's the worst Pixar movie pitch ever.
They did exactly that movie, didn't they? Sure like something pretty close? I think called outside in, I think. Yeah, the right. Is that what it's called? That's right. Inside out. I think right now is it's called, no, it's called Inside Out. I was I was being hilarious being a silly goof. We're being a silly goof ball. That was really funny. You're really fine guy, super funny. We're crushing this episode. I feel like, yeah, polygon. Well, what's your experience
with it? I mean, you don't want to, I don't want to speak for you, so I don't want it, like contextualize this question, but what do you, what's your experience with depression? ADHD? Did you learn about one before the other? What's up? I mean it's actually really weird. Like my relationship to my depression is really weird and I actually been thinking about it a lot today because the video I posted earlier but like I spent most of my childhood. Just thinking that everybody
else felt the same way I did. Like everybody else felt the same way and I think that has been the hardest thing to unlearn and the hardest thing to realize and the hardest thing to I think almost except sometimes like even past the ADHD diagnosis because like I get like angry I get frustrated that like nobody caught it and that like, you know, my life could have been very different but I think the harder thing NG is the
depression. because, I just know it never got treated it, never got dealt with it, never got acknowledged because nobody told me that it wasn't normal to want to die. Like nobody told me that it wasn't normal to just be sad all the time. And to and then also like to even further, complicate it like my depression doesn't necessarily manifest as like sat. My depression manifests as like, numb, disinterest, lack of
motivation. You know, I stopped taking care of myself, but I also have ADHD and so like, I'm always messy anyway, I'm always disorganized anyway. I'm always struggling with basic tasks. Anyway and so a lot of the times like my my experience with Both at the same time as so to sort of like a linked and like this, vicious vicious cycle of I'm depressed. And so now my house is dirty, but now I'm not depressed. In my house is still dirty. So like what's the fucking point? Like, why do I try?
Why do I bother like it? And it sucks and it's frustrating. I kind of got off the point but like, I don't know, like I really struggle with it because now I'm an adult and I have like a dolt responsibilities. But like, there's part of me that just like knows that I'm not, okay, you know, like there's part of me that just knows that But it's really really hard to unlearn 30-plus years of like you just need to suck it up.
It's really really hard and that is something that I've actually been struggling with like a lot lately. Like a lot? Was that an answer? I feel like maybe that was an answer. I don't know. That was an answer. I remember the time I was in my therapist office when I was like 15. And yeah, I remember that moment where I said to her. Well yeah, of course, I wish I wasn't alive. Like, do you not like, do you enjoy this? What? I mean. Come on.
Sort of like this. Whoops, you know, like I was fully expecting her to just be like, I know, right? And she was like, Eric. Yes, like, yeah, I do. Like my life. Like, I, like being alive. What do you not? And I was just matter-of-factly, just know. What are you kidding me? Like sure. I like some things. I like certain movies and TV shows and I like eating blueberries. I like blue bear. I still like blueberries. Um, but like generally no of
course not. Like if I could snap my fingers and never have been born, of course I would. Would you not like what sane person wouldn't? And yeah, that moment we're realizing that not everybody feels this way. It's, I mean, I feel like I should have better words for it because this is a podcast, but it's just fucking strange to look around at other people. Going like holy shit like this person enjoys stuff. This person likes being here. This person is has a life that
they wouldn't. You know, that they are glad that they were born such to have and that still like blows My mind sometimes when I'm in my darker moments that people can have such immense pain but it's still apparently worth it for you know, the joy that they've created for themselves. And I acknowledge that that's true. And I'm I try to exist in the awareness that that is objectively. True, I'm aware that I am capable of creating a life for myself.
Such that even the worst moments will still be worth it meeting. You actually lent, pretty pretty strongly towards helping to work towards that goal. Oh, by the way. So thanks for that. Not really. But maintaining that awareness is really hard and so just to sort of to explain what depression is to meet.
I think it might be useful for us to describe like what depression is to us specifically because I think a lot of people who don't have depression think of it as like being really sad which I guess some people might be true. But just to contextualize what we're talking about. Yeah, I think we just like our ADHD tends to manifest differently. I think we also have different manifestations of depression, like, I think are symptomatic. Miss, that's how scientists say, it's symptomatic.
But is that's, that's just science. And good is different enough that I think that's actually like a really interesting conversation. So like, what Is yours. My depression is. God, I've been thinking about this for three days straight and I still it's still just hard to say I guess is it feels like etching it in stone which when you're recording that's people who listen to podcast like that. A lot when you reference the fact that this is a podcast, they like that.
I really am. My depression is one. It's exists out of time. It's not aware of any future, it's not aware of any past. It's just there's a black wall of nothing in front of you to borrow a phrase loosely from Stephen Fry and there's nothing behind you. Like this is all there is. Now, is this feeling, that's it? There's nothing. And there is no understanding that this will pass, there's no understanding of time passing or that, you know, I'm capable of feeling any different ever.
It's just, this is all there is now. And every second I spend alive is going to be spent feeling this way from now until the end of time. So the the Mystic quality of it. I think is important to bring up and then also this is something that I think is important for people without depression who know and love somebody who has depression to know is that Was there is nothing that I can conceive of in my depression or depressive state that would bring me pleasure. Nothing?
There's nothing. Nothing is worth the effort of moving. So if I'm in bed, which I likely am, if I'm depressed, even just rolling over in bed, is not worth the effort. I'll just lie there and not move. That's not worth the effort. I've heard this called anhedonia. Yeah, the idea, the concept, Depth of not being able to feel pleasure. And so a lot of times, you'll get self help people or something. Well, I want to just clarify it that way because that's sort of
cynical. But a lot of times people who mean very well, you know, the loved one of a person who's experiencing depression will say do something you enjoy. You know, you really like playing music or you really like, I don't know, making little models out of coffee, stirrers. And that may still be true that they they do enjoy that thing. But it is for me and I don't speak for anybody else, but I've heard a lot of people say this, it is inconceivable that there is anything that could bring me
joy. My favorite things to do when I'm not depressed, now are just effort. There's it's all just effort. There is no Pleasant activity, it's just effort and so just nothing is worth the effort. Why would I get up from this chair? And so that's roughly what it is for me is its It's a complete lack of understanding of how time is passing. This is all there is. This is all there ever will be and to there is nothing nor will, there ever be anything that could bring me? Joy, ever.
So, I might as well just maybe as numb as possible and try to just make the rest of my life, tolerable in whatever. Possible way I can, whether that's substance abuse or becoming addicted to something. Or, I don't know, it's or I don't know. I mean that's, this is the
depressed, depression episode. So I feel like it's okay to to stumble around in mutter, but but, but so, that's, that's basically, it's the anhedonia of not understanding that things can give you pleasure and the complete inability to conceive of this ever passing is kind of what it is to me. That's really good answer. I hope so. What is it? What is it to you? Because I think, you know we've both been around each other when were depressed and I'm curious. What is it for you?
That's weird because I want to say weird but the thing that I think is interesting and I think this has to do with personality as much as it has to do with like symptomatic depression, is that I worry so much about being an inconvenience. Everybody else that even in the throes of my depression, I will actively do things that make my depression worse. If I think it makes the people around me more comfortable.
Mmm. And that is a really like I know that's not healthy and I know that it's a bad habit but it's something that I do a lot because my depression is funny that you said a black wall because mine tends to feel like static like that is what my depression feels like.
I feel like if the world is like vibrant color and you know, the world is most of the time, you know, I get the world and vibrant color and then there's like these days where everything sort of goes gray and staticy and I literally call like, I've personified my depression is like a gray cloud like so I'll refer to it as like I'm having like a gray cloud day or
whatever. But I feel like I force myself to fight through that static and I force my way through that gray cloud in order to like perform normally and then it just gets worse and that's something that's like real. And once I started realizing that I was doing that. Are you started working a lot harder on like not doing which is like oh brilliant, don't do the thing that's not on health like healthy. What the fuck was I talking
about? Jesus Christ, you're talking about the gray cloud and then how you put forth effort to reform in a way that you think of as being like sort of normal or business as usual, such to not inconvenience. Other people, look at that, you remembered all I'm really proud of you. I definitely forgot to take my meds today. It's fine again. She said shining Bashi an example of take her meds everybody take her meds Katie. Take your meds drink your Drink
some water. Oh, but anyway, so like because for me like my depression manifest is sort of like the static and so like it's a lack of focus, it's the lack of interest, it's fatigue and it's like a general sort of like I don't know say like existential dread but I spend a lot of time thinking about just like the fact that like everyone I know and love is going to die and that's upsetting, you know and so Because it's like fatigue and lack of focus, and lack of
motivation. Which already shows up in my ADHD. I feel like I have to go harder. I feel like I have to prove myself more. I feel like I, you know, I can't just lie in bed, you know. So I'll go completely in the opposite direction. And so for really long time, actually, when I started going to to therapy, there is a really long sort of I swear, they thought that I might have bipolar, but but it because they're like, my therapist was like, well you're manic.
You're manic right now and I'm like, I'm not. I'm just acting like it because like, that's my reaction is fuck you brain. If you're going to be sad, I'm going to be happy as fuck. Fuck you. And so like that is what I've done for really long time is to balance out the scales. And so like it was funny. Because when I was on mental illness, happy hour with Paul go, Martin Shameless, plug, one of the first things he said to me was like, well, you seem really happy?
And I was like, that's because I was depressed as fuck, that day. And so I went into this interview being like, hi, I'm Katie, it's loras, and thanks for having me on famous ball Gilmartin. When, in reality, I was just like, I'm awful, everything is awful, I hate this. I, everything is terrible and I want to die.
And so it's like that's a perfect example, you know, and like yeah, yeah, I think part of the not to use this term too much stay, but the insidiousness of depression, is that it wants nobody to know that, it's there. It seems like it's it's it wants to hide itself from other people, almost like a like Giver. Did you ever play the game pandemic? So Flash game on the old internet? Yeah, it's a game. Where basically you design a disease board game too.
Oh yeah, we should play that. Oh my gosh, we should totally play that. I've got an extra copy of the Legacy version. If you want to play Legacy, can't have excited. I'm definitely want to play. Like it's a pandemic but then the The Flash game is you basically designed a disease, such to take over the whole world. Sega relevant and the best strategy in that game was to develop a disease.
That was basically secret, that know, that had no visible symptoms that way, there would be no precautions taken by like the world that you're playing against such to stop it, such to combat it. And depression seems to be kind of that way in a lot of people, it wants to convince other people that it's not there. It wants to convince The person who has it but it's not there sometimes and that's terrifying.
Yeah. I mean that happens to me all the time is like that's what like for me like that's one of the hardest things. It's like my depression convinces me that my depression is not real. Yeah. And that I'm just faking it for attention or that you know I'm just being overdramatic or any other thousands of reasons. And then I have to actively remind myself like no, you have a mental illness and it is lying to you. Is very surreal sometimes.
Yeah it really is. It's like that saying of the the worst thing at the bottom of the fourth, the actual sang, but the the worst thing the devil ever did was convince people, they didn't exist. I think depression is a lot that way and depression is in a lot of in much like ADHD depression can disguise itself to The Afflicted person as a moral failing. Yeah, absolutely. Somebody When we were taking questions for our, the last
episode, The Q&A episode. Somebody said a question that really struck me that I did not know how to answer. They ask the question, how do I know if I have ADHD or if I'm just lazy and I don't have an answer. That's a terrifying question because I believe there is such a thing as lazy. I don't think the word lazy means nothing. I think there's such a thing as lazy. So where's that lot?
Because sometimes like I am sometimes just lazy like last night my roommate and I ate meat balls my room and I posted it. Take talk about how I was depressed and my roommate was like hey she reached out, she was like hey let's let's have dinner tomorrow let's have like a cleaning party and we'll get our shit together in a late dinner nose.
Nice. And then after dinner she did the majority of the dinner stuff and so like in my New England upbringing, if you don't cook then you do the dishes and so that's is what you do. And so there was there were like four plates there. Well, there are three, there were two plates, a pot, two forks, and two spoons. And I said, I'm not going to die set out loud. Like I promise, I'll do these, but I'm not going to do them right now. And I was walking away from the
sink. And like I was fully ready to blame depression or blame executive dysfunction and in Z, indeed, those things were absolutely working against me, but I was like, No, just I'm also but there's also some laziness going on here. I like, I can muscle through the one minute that it would take me. And so, I turned around, and I did this very small amount of dishes, I actually it's worth. I'm very proud of you for doing
that. Thanks very much and boy, was it nice to wake up this morning and they're not be dishes Cole boy. That was great. So I I think the question of what is laziness have to do with all. This is a really a terrifying question to address because one
depression ADHD are real. They're not just excuses for laziness like definitely of course they're not but that's one of the tools that depression when it's being malicious depression and ADHD when they're being malicious, that's one of the tools they have in their Arsenal to convince you that you're just a piece of shit and if depression can convince you that it's a piece of I shit, it can fortify. And so, I think it's important to understand that.
Laziness is a thing but it's not depression. Depression is another thing, depression is not just uncheck laziness, which is what it often tries to convince me that it is. Yeah, I agree. I also am just has like a weird place to bring this up but like What should we talk about for
the rest of the episode? Well, I have a couple ideas, I think, honestly in the opener, you listener will have already heard this, but I'm going to make the intro saying, like, hey this is going to be a little bit less polished than usual because I think, you know, when we're talking about hygiene and sex
and stuff, that's one thing. But I think when we're just talking, frankly, about depression or an ADHD, I think it's important to leave in the rawness of it and be like, hey, this is really what it is. I agree. I mean, do you ever feel I do honestly, like guilty? Because it's not the right word because I refuse to feel guilty about it. But like I have this like,
weird. I always feel like I'm living this crazy double standard we're like I get on Tick Tock and I make these videos that are like super reassuring and super like you're not broken and you're not alone and they're funny and I pretend to be mr. Rogers. Hers. And I, you know, and I just do like dumb little things because like they make me happy and they make me happy and I think maybe they make other people happy and like I enjoy doing them and I have a good time.
But then there are other days where like Or even I would say like afternoons. Like I woke up this morning and I felt pretty fine but like as the afternoon has gone on like this day has just gotten like harder and harder and harder. And so like, I just, I don't know. Like, I always feel like this guilt or like, I'm somehow complicit in the lie that like, I'm okay, and I'm misrepresenting me and I'm misrepresenting who I am. And I like, I never know how to navigate that because like I
loved the video that you posted. I loved that video. That you posted about like not being okay. And I've posted videos like that before, but like, I don't know.
Like I feel such like a to use a Raise that you already said, like I feel such like a moral obligation to present myself as like happy and put together and okay because like I don't want to be a disappointment and I don't want to let people down and like I don't want people to feel the way that I do and like now I'm going to fucking cry on my goddamn podcast but like that's like that's the thing is like I just I don't want people
to feel like this. because I hate it and I wouldn't wish it on anybody until like I never know how to navigate that I never know how to navigate those feelings of like I'm actively doing something wrong by not talking more about how hard it is but by talking about how hard it is, It's a downer, you know, like I feel bad that we're doing this episode. I'm like, should we even? I'm sitting here ranting into a microphone and I'm like, should we even fucking record like
publish this episode? Like, is this going to be like, too much? Because I feel like we're like, I don't know. Like I don't I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Just ignore me. I'm sorry. Well, Katie, I for one, that's that's five bucks in the sorry jar. You're going to be so goddamn rich. Well I think I don't think it's true that being a downer and and being helpful are mutually exclusive at all.
I think a lot of times I have been helped by seeing somebody do something that I'm sure they didn't think was helpful. I think, well, I think being frank and honest and vulnerable. Is intrinsically helpful because it lends whoever sees that the permission structure to be vulnerable and raw and honest themselves. And so it's certainly one way to be helpful is to, you know, put on the ACT and try to be entertaining while also being educational and all that.
And that's all genuine. Like I don't, I hope you don't think of that as being in genuine because ultimately I know you Katie and I I know that your incentive is to be useful and helpful to other people, almost to a fault, becoming a problem, but that's not the only way to do it being raw and being yourself. Even in even those dark moments lens, a permission structure to other people to accept themselves and understand that. That's okay.
And also, I don't think I don't think it's dishonest to even when you're feeling bad when you're feeling depressed to put it on for a second and record a video or to say to somebody, it's going to be okay, even though in that moment, you're not entirely sure but you know, intellectually that it will be the I don't, that's not dishonest, it's not your obligation to share. How you feel exactly all the
time. I mean, modern society would collapse If that's what we did but it is it is helpful if you do decide to do that. And so, I mean I see where you're coming from and I feel that way a lot to like when I, you know, when I'm going through like major depressive episodes and I'll post like one video of me saying, like it's all going to be okay. I'm not lying. I know that it's all going to be okay. Like, I've saved that in my memory bank, that that's true.
But my entire being is trying to convince me that that's not the case. But it's I'm now I'm now I'm spinning a little bit but that's okay. Let's start today. This is a unique experience that's just to say that it's not dishonest to be anyway. I mean, if I, I know I know for a fact that your intentions are always good. And that's not something that
you could hide. Even if you tried, I mean, you're a damn good actor, but you, you can't hide that your, you can't hide your good intentions things. Here, I have a, I have a I have a real question for you. This is a funny question. What's that is a real honest question because this is something that I struggled with
is like for a really long time. I was like, so you know, we've been sitting here we've been recording this podcast and like We're making each other laugh like you know not like a bra rias because you're not that fucking funny. Don't get a big head about it but like we're laughing and we're like we're having a good time and we're having a conversation and I think like one of the weirdest things for me was realizing that I can laugh and be horrific lie
depressed at the same time. Mmm, you here. And like, I wish people talked about that more like I wish people talked about the fact that like being depressed is not just being sad, and I think it also goes sort of along the lines of like, you know, all comedians are the saddest people, you know, but like I like I always feel weird about it. I always feel weird about like over recording a podcast about depression and I've been
laughing in the background. Like people aren't going to believe that I have depression, like people aren't going to be Believe that I'm struggling because I'm laughing, I just think that such like a unique. Depressive thing of like not like your depression being such that like you, you don't even want to give yourself the permission to feel those occasional moments of Joy because like, but I have to be depressed completely depressed and it's like that's just not
how it works, you know. Yeah. I think there are definitely been depressive episodes that lasted longer Because I, you know, I was, let's say I'm with my family and we're on a, we're doing a thing and I'm depressed, my whole family knows I had depression. So it's not like a secret but so I'm depressant, you know, we have protocol but then something will happen.
Usually, somebody will make me laugh and that'll like jar, my head enough to where like I can open the door, a little bit to maybe get out of it and I can go oh, like I I start to feel Joy a little bit again but then I like go. Nope and I shut the door because I don't want them to feel like I was lying more that to like and also I'm just relaxing in this
in this very moment. I don't want to feel myself like I was lying, I don't want to feel like I was lying to myself that whole time like oh it's just that easy somebody made a fart joke and now it's done. Like and that's just my God, it's just What a dick move depression. What a dick move to be? Like, I don't know, I'm just realizing I did. I do that all the time.
I decide to stand that decide. But like I tipped the scales towards remaining depressed because I yeah, I want people to not think that I was just lying that whole time because I didn't want to talk or something. I don't know. That's so weird that you do that. I feel genuinely less alone in like a weirdo in this moment. To thank you for telling me that Hello, welcome to the middle of the episode. Thanks for making it this far.
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Further to back to you soon. So we're kind of talking about like our experiences with depression and you know, because I think those are important conversations to have because I think the the experience of living depression is not one
that we talked about a lot. We talked about depression and like a conceptual way we talk about like the symptoms of it or whatever, but we don't talk about the realities of like sometimes people are going to make fart jokes and you're going to laugh and still want to die, you know?
but like, so, If I'm listening to this podcast and you know, my partner or whoever has depression like what advice would you give for somebody who is wanting to support and like doesn't know how because it's hard. It's really hard to support a depressed person. I think in the way that you might support somebody with like ADHD like it's different. It's a different set of challenges. It's a different set of. It's like a moving constantly moving Target.
I think, but like so what what do you need, like, what helps you? That's a fantastic question. I think depression is sort of, in a realm of its own in terms of how to support somebody with it. Because when let's say my ADHD, if, if one were to ask me, how do I support you Eric with your ADHD? I'm capable of saying, oh, well, you could remind me to not forget my keys, like I have my brain is functioning in a way that I can still ascribe value. You two things that I need like,
oh, I forget to eat. So if you could every once in awhile hand me a banana that's that's great. But depression is I like, we say this all the time but I always mean it. I don't want to speak for everybody, but depression is often such a thing that the person who has depression or is experiencing depression is in a depressive episode, they have no fucking clue what they need at all. It just it couldn't possibly occur to them like that at any Adonia.
Like, if somebody says to me, if I'm depressed and somebody knows that I'm depressed and they say, hey, do you want to take a walk? No. I don't want to do anything. Like, do you want to watch a movie? No, I don't want to do anything. I would like to not be alive. That's what I that's the only thing. One. So understand that the person who is depressed, likely doesn't know what would help them. They're not always just being dismissive of the question, they
genuinely have no idea. So the advice that I would give is when you see your partner, the person you're trying to support when you see them enjoy something, whether it's watching golf or or watching stand-up comedy, or whatever, when you see somebody to sort of log that in your head of, that's a low effort thing that this This person enjoys, what this they enjoy this movie. They enjoy this podcast.
They enjoy drinking hot chocolate log that because when they are depressed, they're not going to remember any of that shit. They're not going to remember that, they enjoy things and so rather than sort of asking like you do you want to take a walk, do you want some hot chocolate? What do you want to watch? Just put one of those things on just put on stand-up comedy like if they're in bed or something like that, just like Take your computer, they'll shut it.
If they don't want to watch it like don't don't force them to but just make it happen because they're likely incapable of making those types of decisions or figuring out what they need
at that time. So, I would say try to have like a log of things, that low-effort things that's important, something they don't necessarily have to get dressed or out of bed for, but low effort things that they enjoy that you can just sort of give to them, like, here's Is Dane Cook's Comedy Central presents special or something like that? Or here's Caddyshack. I made you hot chocolate. So avoid asking those questions of what do you want? Because they have no fucking idea.
Just provide them with things but again, don't don't room, you know, don't remove their autonomy, don't force them to watch something, you know, if don't put the laptop across the room so that they have to get up to go close it, you know, they give them an out but just say, hey, I made you hot chocolate. Here's this Here's that that tends to help me. So yeah I guess just knowing that they don't really, they don't know what helps. And so perhaps just remember
some stuff that they enjoy. It's really good advisor. I hope. What would you say? Put a blanket in the dryer. Yeah. And if it's weighted. Cool.
Oh, boy. Because like honestly, like, I like, I think one of the things like, and this is, this is real is like are like, here's A pro tip Eric, you can have this one for free like one of the things that I am so bad at is because like I generally don't feel like I like in something I've been working on for a while but I like generally don't feel like I'm like worthy of care and love most of the time anyway.
So like my depression will double down on that and so things like washing my hair or brushing my hair or brushing my Teeth. Like I'm like, it doesn't matter. Like I don't like it's like, that's like a luxury, you know? And so things like clean underwear or like like warm socks, like that kind of thing like those to me are. Like, those are like huge gestures to me, like somebody taking the time to like, put a blanket in the dryer and like, just come give it to me, like
that kind of thing. Mmm. And like, because like it's also funny because like, I actually disagree with the advice that you just gave. I think it's really good advice for you. But for me, I like and again like I wish that I had words to describe this experience because it is so bizarre.
Azhar. But it's like if I'm depressed and you came in and you were like, hey Kati, I know that your favorite show in the whole world is slings and arrows which it is. Let's watch slings and arrows, depression, brain, Katie would go. Eric is just watching slings and arrows to humor me. He doesn't like this show. He's suffering through it. You're a terrible friend and a terrible partner for making him. Watch this dumb show. Like you're a piece of shit.
He's miserable. When he doesn't want to be here because like, that's what my brain does. So I would be like, really uncomfortable if you came in with a laptop with my favorite show because like my depression would just tell me that like you're just doing it to be nice and therefore I'm an inconvenience, that's that's really interesting and I don't mean to interrupt you but I do that. I do want to clarify that after in my one of the advice that I gave which is I mean come on
that's the important stuff. I'm sorry when you put the laptop down with Her favorite show on. Are you bring them hot? Chocolate. Leave after that? Leave because he, I want some I want to be like, I want you to stay. Oh, really interesting? Okay, that's the other thing. Like again, like I think this is like a really good example of like Different Strokes for different folks. Like I'm sorry. I said that I've never said that before. I will never say that again.
Um, I think you're subconsciously telling me what your favorite of show, actually is. I mean, I am. It's fucking Slings and arrows. Shut up. But like, yeah. Like, I like, I don't want to be alone but I also don't want the burden of like I shouldn't be a burden but like I don't want the Added responsibility of entertaining.
So like if, if you are just like, you know, if you just come in the room and you're like, hey, I'm going to watch this thing then, like, I might passively watch it with you, you know, I'm not like, I don't know if I'm going to be invested in it. Mmm, but like the, what was the thing that you were showing me the last time like those, like Vsauce documentary. Oh yeah. Shit. Like that is perfect. Just something that's like 10 minutes. It's not long. It's low stress.
Yes. But I can just like be in the room with you and I can just sit quietly, I can fuck on my phone. I can, you know, I can do whatever I would. Like my depression brain is telling me or I can just sit there and fucking, you know, stare into the middle distance. But like, yeah, like I want, I just like want someone to be there too to acknowledge that I'm not alone and that Yeah, like just like acknowledge that I'm not alone.
That's really. Wow. Well, I I don't, I don't recant my previous advice because for a lot of people that's true. Sometimes for me, it's true. I just want to be alone because I'm embarrassed or whatever, but I think you're not giving them an obligation, be it subliminally or explicitly implicitly or explicitly like fruit. So for example, if I were to come in and put on what I know to be your favorite show that I know it like I know You will not to know that that puts in your
head. Oh, Eric, just watching this show for me. Now, if I don't pay attention, I'm being that's it's like a dick move. I don't pay attention. But like, you know, something that I and I think I've asked you to do this Katie when we're together. It's like, if I'm in bed, you can just like, sit on the bed with me or like like like and just you'll just be on your phone and dick around and do
whatever. So like which doesn't put any pressure on me to be entertaining or to pretend to enjoy a show or anything like that. It's just your Physically there. Yeah, so I think it, I guess, it depends. On the person, which I guess, would lend. I mean, given what I said, were the person might not know what they need in the moment. If when they're depressed, have those conversations when they're
not depressed. I was literally just going to say that I was like, Rex tip is don't ask these questions when they're in the throes of depression. Yeah, I asked them when they're not and knowing that it's hard to remember what it's like to be depressed when you're not depressed, and it's hard to remember what it's like to not be depressed when you are depressed. So there, you know, just know that they're not, there might
not. Be like in crate, like crazy specific accurate, but you'll get more useful information that way than asking them when they are depressed or check in with somebody, like, after a depressive episode and say, like, hey, what so what could I have, like, when they're out of it, but it's still fresh in their mind because those depressive episodes there, like lights off, like they're these. I'm trying to think of like a sign. An example from like a science movie, but like, you can't
really get in there. It's like this. Darkness. But right after it you can kind of say, so, tell me what that was like, do you or do? I mean consensually, like, say, do you want to talk about it, you know, or can we talk about it? But yeah, try to get that information out of them. Which sounds what we're trying to add to have those conversations when they're not depressed. Such that they can use their brain effectively? Yeah. And I think I would add to that.
I think that's great advice, but I would also add like understand that, like, it has taken me, Literally literally 12 years to be able to confidently unpack to this point and like I'm not like I don't have all the answers. I don't necessarily think that like, my advice is like that good. But like, you have to be patient because particularly like, I think, for people who have been struggling alone for a while or struggled sir, Going without diagnosis like that kind of
thing. They might not know what they need. And I think even more importantly, a lot of people have never been asked, what do you need? And a lot of people have never been asked, how can I support you?
And I think that and this is something that like weirdly kept coming up this past week on Tick, Tock for me the resistance to that, the resistance to asking that question because like, well, I don't want to I sound like a weird therapy robot that's so weird and uncomfortable and I don't want to sound like a camp counselor and, you know, I don't want to be inauthentic like asking uncomfortable questions or asking those type of like really vulnerable really?
Exposed questions can be really tough but I think like getting over that moment of uncomfortable, miss getting over that moment of like, oh this is going to sound so awkward when I asked my depress friend, like, how can I support you? But I think like, you might sound awkward, you might sound like a camp, counselor. You might sound like a robot, but I would rather you sound like a robot who's genuinely trying to help me like during a time when I'm in crisis and I'm
not, okay. Then, like not have you asked it? Because you're like, that sounds weird. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And having those sometimes uncomfortable conversations, you can think of it as like working out where each one of those is like a rep. So every time you do that, you're flexing, the muscle of sometimes, I have to have uncomfortable conversations and I'll make the next one easier. I think a lot of good good be done to society.
Ha ha ha because, you know, we live in a society if we it was more, if people were more used to having those conversations. I think. I think it does a lot of good. I think that's totally People sometimes. But I think it does a lot more harm than good even if it sounds awkward, you know. Yeah. So I'd like to we have about five more minutes finish up. We've we've talked about our experience with depression.
We've talked a bit about how to perhaps support somebody you love with depression but then there are also a couple things that I'd like to just say to people who have depression because maybe one person will internalize it and be able to say to themselves when they are depressed. It's hard to remember massive monologues or whole podcast episodes but perhaps you can say a couple words to yourself when you're depressed, but one of those things is just yes, this
will pass. I know there's that this too shall pass thing but it's absolutely true. I know that when you're depressed, it's impossible to to imagine that this is going to pass but it always does. I promise it always does. That's how linear time works. It will pass. Also you're worthy, you just are you're worthy of it. Of love. You're worthy of building. A successful life for yourself. You just are there's no weird. Omniscient demon. Keeping score thinking up. No, no this person actually
isn't worthy of the thing. They they didn't donate to the hungry children thing. The last time they were at Safeway. That makes them not worthy. Yes you are. There's nobody out there. Keeping score determining who is and who is not worthy. Yes you are. I promise.
Can I do one? Yeah. Please one of the things that helps me the most night and I also don't want to give like a grand speech or pretend like I'm some kind of expert because I'm not but one of the things that I think is important to remember is that there are moments of profound Beauty, everywhere. You look, even when you are sad, even when you are depressed, even when you can feel nothing, there is so much Beauty in the world.
And I think if you can find those places of beauty and find those places of Wonder and astonishment at how wonderful people can be and how good the world can be. Remembering that Beethoven's Ninth exists, can be really helpful and it doesn't have to be Beethoven's 9th. That's like my thing. But it can be, you know, the way the floor gets warm and the Sun or the way your dog smells or whatever. Now I'm crying. Fuck you, end of the podcast. I love you.
Katie Toby to work. Thanks for being here, horse. Everyone thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of in a quest. We know that most of the time we leave you on a lighter note. But this week, particularly given the subject matter, we wanted to provide some resources for those who might be struggling. First and foremost we want to say bluntly and directly that there is no shame in getting help. There are many organizations out there that can provide help.
If you are in immediate crisis, you can always reach out to the crisis, text line, 24 hours a day in the US and Canada. You can do that by texting 741 741. And if you're in the UK, you can text eight, five, two, five, eight. If you are a younger listener, you could reach out to youth line by texting teen to teen. That's Tean. Numeral two.
Tean 2839 863. They provide help for people ages, 11 to 21. If you're a member of the lgbtq+ community, you can contact the Trevor Project by texting start to six seven, eight, six, seven, eight. And if you or someone you know is being abused sexually or Physically, you can contact the rape, abuse and incest national network at 1-866-376-8255 Isis intervention workers in your
community. While also post a list of resources crisis centers and numbers to our website, which is infinite Quest. Podcast.com lastly. We just want to remind you that, no matter how tough Things Are. You Are Not Alone from the infinite Quest family. We just want you to know. You are valid. You are loved. You are worthy. The and you are enough. Be kind to yourself this week. We love you and we'll talk to you soon. The and you are enough. Be kind to yourself this week.
We love you and we'll talk to you soon.