How To Start Your Leadership Growth Journey With Scott Allen

of expertise include leader development , the future of work and executive communication . Scott's published more than 60 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters . He also hosts the podcast Phronesis Practical Wisdom for Leaders , ranked among the world's top 2.5% of podcasts . Scott frequently serves as a keynote speaker and facilitates workshops across industries .

Scott , I'm so glad you're here . Thanks for being on the show .

I joined because my best friend joined and a couple of years in I find myself in this leadership position and I just kind of fell in love . We were making a lot of progress , we were improving , things were kind of humming in a really , really nice way .

We recruited some other people that were similar values and we started knocking out of the park and I was kind of like , wow , this is kind of interesting , this is fun , I'm intrigued , right .

So I graduate from the University of Minnesota and I actually went and worked for my fraternity and my job was to help us become closer aligned with really who we said we were . As you can imagine , there's a lot of locations around North America where we say we're one thing but we're actually probably not really living up to that .

So how do we as an organization more closely align with who we say we are and really live those values At that job ? My supervisor , great mentor of my life , one of those individuals who I was just lucky that I crossed paths with him .

His name was Bob Cottrell and he hosted this book club Thursday mornings at 7am and we read the book the Leadership Challenge . And those Thursday morning conversations just lit me up . I mean I just had jet fuel . I was amazed that leadership was something you could study , that someone had written a book about it .

As silly as it might sound , it wasn't something that was the norm , as it is today in a lot of high schools or a lot of colleges that we really talk about effective leadership or read about effective leadership .

So I was hooked and we read the Leadership Challenge , jim Kouzes and Barry Posner and you know I just reread their seventh edition , which was just such a wonderful way to kind of tap back in . But from there I went on and got a graduate degree in human resource development and then did a PhD in leadership and change .

And you know it was Saturday or Sunday and I just had so much energy for as silly as it sounds reading the literature , reading journal articles , kind of really getting into what is it that people know about , what makes a great leader ?

So from there really it started probably around 1997 , 1996 , where I started really exploring the topic , but it was in college where it started for me and since then I've just been enthralled .

It's fascinating to me and , as you know from hosting a podcast , you're just I'm so intrigued by the fact that I keep stumbling upon things A I don't know Really all the podcast has done for me , and the PhD was help me understand how little .

something a little bit different now . Can you talk about what it is that you have jumped into these days ?

And my energy was very much kind of located in the podcast , very much located in some of the consulting work that I was doing , because interfacing with individuals with kind of the problem now the case studies , the real live case studies in their heads that really are impacting literally them this moment , the email they just received while they were in the session

that really existing in that space , really fired me up .

And then also in that space I was learning and am continue to learn , because one day I'm with an organization that is focused on Catholicism , the next day it's an organization that's insurance , it might be banking , it might be automotive , it might be architecture , construction I mean all these different nooks and crannies of the world and learning about those

organizations and again , trying to be helpful in assisting these leaders in thinking about how to approach some of the really gnarly challenges that they're facing . So I made a shift .

I let my dean know last spring I'd achieved full professor , kind of had this job for life , so to speak , and I wasn't feeling the energy for the classroom to the level I was feeling the energy of being out there in the world . So I made the transition and it's just been incredible .

It's really really helped me explore this topic of leader development from a whole new perspective , having more times I almost feel like Jane Goodall in a way .

You know , I'm kind of embedded in the organization in a little bit of a different way and really paying close attention to the themes , to what are some of the conversations , what are some of the struggles , and so that's just been . It's been fascinating , it really has , and for now that's where my energy is .

I don't know if it'll be there seven years from now , who knows , maybe someday I'll go back to academia , but for now I knew that there was something more and a lot more to learn . I knew that there was something more and a lot more to learn .

And that's , I think , really , really important for me is that I'm in these contexts that are helping me really engage in the learning . And so , again , the podcast . I'm learning every week when I'm with these organizations , I'm learning , and I'm learning about the very real case studies that these leaders are facing and , as you know , it's not easy work .

It's challenging work . You never get bored , that's for sure . No , no , you start to kind of see some themes and start to kind of see , and again , it's so much fun to look at it through the lens of some of the academic work . But I always have had an eye for how do we take the theory and actually have it in foreign practice ?

For how do we take the theory and actually have it informed practice ? How do we take the theory and communicate it in a way that's actionable to someone who's not immersed in the literature ? Because there's some incredible academic thinking but it's stuck behind a paywall in these academic journals that no one sees Right , and I think that's tragic .

I mean , I really do . So I kind of love that role of being a translator and taking this really cool concept from something no one would have ever read , of course , giving them credit for that thinking , but then translating and saying here's how that impacts you today

today , you know , when I was reading about you and I came across two quotes that seemed to resonate throughout your online presence , and I'd love to hear why these quotes mean so much to you .

I think one thing it doesn't mean at times people can kind of take it this way who you are is how you lead , is that you're fixed , that who you are is how you always will be , and I don't think I don't take it that way at all . However , for me it's an individual's level of maturity .

It is aspects of someone's personality your level of optimism , grit , conscientiousness , those elements blood like no , you couldn't even feel the needle go in . They were awesome and they showed up on time and they were a really nice person . Everyone loved them . We now place them in a position of authority .

Of course we give them their press Ganey scores , customer satisfaction , tell them their quality scores for their department , show them the PNL and say good luck . And you , and obviously this person has a completely new job and oftentimes we don't prepare them with the skills . So I think who you are is how you lead . Well , what is your skill level ?

Are you skilled at leading meetings ? Are you skilled at influencing others ? Are you skilled at motivating or inspiring ? That matters , that matters greatly . Just like for a phlebotomy , it matters . If you can poke me and not hurt me , that matters greatly . Just like for a phlebotomy , it matters if you can poke me and not hurt me , that matters greatly .

That is true . Yes , Well , and so the equivalent , I think , is you could take me and a PhD in leadership and say well , you know a lot about management , Go do healthcare . Well , I could probably learn it , but I would hurt some people in the process , I would .

And I think at times we're putting people in positions of authority , not giving them the tools and the training , and they're hurting and damaging culture . Yes , so it's your skill level , it's your knowledge of leadership . So we place people in these positions of authority . Well , who you are , what is your actual knowledge about the activity of leading others ?

And for some they've never picked up a leadership book and that kind of shows up to the group . So this is your emotional intelligence , this is your lived history , who you are . I bring with me my history and there may be some trauma in that background and if I haven't resolved that , how does that show up for the team ?

So I think for me , who you are matters greatly , and I think the punchline for me is are you a person who's ? Do you have a system in place to always be becoming a better version of yourself ? For me , I have a therapist , Dr Phil , and I see Dr Phil every two weeks . I get on the phone , I go on a walk and I talk with Dr Phil . I have a mentor .

I speak with him every couple of weeks . I have my wife . We go on a walk every morning at no bad weather , just bad gear and we get on the same page and we talk and we communicate . I'm always listening to audio books .

I'm listening to Jocko Willink Dichotomy of Leadership right now and you know , not academic kind of tone , but really , really good stuff in there . So , and one reason I love this quote also is I think you could put a different word at the end of that statement who you are is how you parent . Who you are is how you coach . Who you are is how you teach .

Who you are is how and that matters . I mean , if you're in a position of authority , it matters . So for me , the punchline on that quote is are you continually trying to become a better version of self ? If others are in your care , are you the best possible version of yourself and are you in that ? Are you doing that work ?

Because we know what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who's in a good place and really trying to become a better version of themselves , and we know what it feels like to be in the presence of someone who struggles with that work . Right , that's so good .

And you know the differences in our live between the two of us , our lived realities , our history , the parents , whatever they were modeling in the home , I mean , that is just vastly the infinite number of variables there . And so I just that quote keeps me , it keeps my mind cooking , it just does .

And you can get into some really fun conversations through that quote . I start a lot of my sessions that way with clients and that conversation can go on for a while . For sure , that conversation can go on for a while .

I mean , it's just such a beautiful image and again , I love that quote because parents create the weather , coaches create the weather , teachers create the weather . And so I think you know another way of saying this is what's the emotional tone , what is the tone you're setting in that space ?

So you've worked for individuals somewhere along the way where it was just kind of tornadic . It was just , it was hurricane-like , it was just . There was always , things were swirling and it was a little bit of a chaotic space . Their world was a little chaotic . Your world became a little chaotic .

You've probably worked for someone who , every day , it was just a little 50 and rainy , you know you'd say how are you doing ? They'd say crappy . You'd be like , oh , okay , well , go get them . You know , have a great day . You know , and , and Jim , that's , that's , that's the weather pattern .

You put Jim in a position of authority and , uh , you know it , it's , it's kind of a depressing place to be . So I'm not saying that it's always , you know , 70 and sunny . We can't all live in San Diego , but what I love about that quote is you know what is what's weather over time ? Well , it's climate . And what's another word for climate ?

I mean culture . Culture , kind of , make that , that , that leap a little bit . So , yeah , is it hot and just Sahara like and just really really , really uncomfortable in the space ? Is it cold like a Siberian gulag ? Is it cold and just I mean .

So I love that quote because I think it reminds me , even as a parent , part of my job is to set a tone , and what is that tone that I'm setting with my kids in a general sense ? Again , it's not always 70 and sunny .

There's thunderstorms , every once in a while there's a little bit of a hurricane , but in a general sense , am I conscious of the fact that the energy I'm putting out matters ?

And I think at times people struggle with that and if you're living with that , or if you're being coached by that , or you know , you had that teacher where you walked in , you thought you loved history and all of a sudden it got really dry in the space . It was a long semester and it was just wow , this is a . Can I get a little water please ?

I just want to be quenched . But no , dr Johnson couldn't bring that to the table right . So that's another one that just it kind of sticks with me

in a very powerful way . But again , that's my friend Jonathan Reams , Just brilliant .

We could get into like semantics of how we want to define it , but that's one that I'll just kind of try on and use and enjoy . Well then , that would mean that part of my wife and I , our role , is influence our children toward a common vision .

That might be influencing them to prioritize their grades or influence them to tap into something that they're passionate about here on earth . So we very , very much , a lot of our walks in the morning we are talking about , okay , how do we influence our son or our daughter ? And it might be just like nudge . You know , let's not have to ground or take away .

I mean not that that's never happened , it has and a lot of the time we're talking about how do we gently nudge , guide , influence towards success , whatever success means . It might be getting the part , it might mean tapping into a passion that they have , experimenting with something new , and that's for me .

I don't think you have to have a title to lead , I don't think you have to have a position of authority to have influence . So we very , very much , and parenting is a great mirror for what you need to work on .

And so I took that to heart and so every day that my first task on my to-do list is I write a sentence about each child . When my son was born , I pulled out my laptop . I wrote a sentence , and literally every day for 16 plus years , I wrote a sentence , and literally every day for 16 plus years I've written a sentence .

Wow , yeah , and have done that with the twin girls as well . Every day there's a sentence . And it might be you walked for the first time today . It might be we were in Washington state and we visited Boeing . Who knows what it is , but it's something about their life and who they are .

And recently my entrance , my entry for my son has been you're challenging me to get better because I'm not good enough yet . In certain ways , I'm not there yet . And again , it's this wonderful mirror to where I can improve , develop and grow , and I think as parents , it's very easy to look at them and their deficiencies and what they're not doing .

But it's a little more challenging to kind of turn that towards ourselves , and my wife and I have a really wonderful relationship and she's helpful . She's very helpful . I can just look at her and she can , you know , give me a glance like you're failing right now . You're not good enough yet . Step it up . It's not working . Poor timing there , scott .

That was not the time , but you walked into it and it blew up , didn't it ? Her emotional and social intelligence is at like a nine , and I'm in process .

But that was some of our happiest times as a family in those couple years , in the sense that it was an opportunity for us to model problem solving for the kids .

It was an opportunity to model optimism in the face of challenge , where some things that they would say , things like , well , this is not going to be a great Thanksgiving , and we would say , well , how do we make this the best Thanksgiving ever ? And we started some wonderful traditions as a family during those years .

So I think , parenting for sure , social learning theory , Albert Bandura , what's being modeled in your environment ? We have an opportunity to model for our kids communication , healthy boundaries , what is humorous and fun , healthy , fun , and so for me , again , it kind of comes back to who you are is how you lead , who you are is how you parent .

Am I the best version of myself for trying to be ? And because I do view

it . I view it as a leadership role , as an opportunity to practice leadership for sure .

What would you say if one of the listeners were to say what can I do to improve my leadership ?

I also have some mentors in the community that I connect in with that I learn from that . I ask key questions of . These aren't people that I'm kind of commiserating with , and it's not a relationship where like , oh yeah , they are horrible , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah .

These are relationships where I'm saying I'm failing here , I'm not seeing results , I'm wondering why . And they're thinking partners . Right , they're individuals that are helping me . So who are those individuals for you ? It's not a drinking buddy , although I guess you could have a beer and have a really insightful conversation , but you know what I'm saying .

This isn't just , like you know , I'm palling around and watching the game . These are individuals where you can have deep conversations and share some of those limitations and be vulnerable with those individuals . And so that's for me , one of the most important pieces .

Number two there's a mindset here that when I'm not getting the results I want and again , parenting , workplace , community there's a mindset here of what do I need to own in this kind of situation ? What do I need to own in this challenge ? What do I need to own in us challenge , what do I need to own in us not getting the results that we want ?

And I think in that there's a lot of potential learning . It's called self-serving bias . We tend to externalize and blame others . If my boss doesn't get it , well , why don't they ? Have I not been skilled at influencing them ? Am I not communicating in a way where they can hear it ? I mean , there's learning there , right ?

And that's exactly the type of question I might bring a mentor and say look , I see this , this and this as opportunities . I'm not getting anywhere . What am I missing ? What could I be doing differently ? So there's a mindset that keeps you in a place of growth and development and searching .

We tend to externalize some of those failures , those limitations , blame others . And I think , if we at least put it through that lens , what do I need to own ? I'll give you an example . I'll give you an example from parenting . So , as a parent of teenagers , a challenge I'm confronting right now is it can be the case that every time I interact with them .

It's because something hasn't been picked up hasn't been picked up again . It's the third time .

This is an ongoing conversation , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera , and I can walk around the house and I can see those things very , very easily and I can name them very easily , but they may not want to spend a lot of time with me or interact all that much with me .

If that's the only thing I'm saying , that's the only interactions we're having . So what I've been practicing lately is I have to make those deposits into the emotional bank account , and it's a little bit harder right now , but I have to be very conscious . You know my daughter's studying and really going above and beyond and working hard .

I have to be able to remind myself to pause , slow down and say I'm so proud of you , you are working hard . Thank you , right . And so it's very easy for me to see what they're not doing . It's very difficult for me to see oh , wow , you're kind of every interaction is a little bit negative and probably not all that positive .

What's up with that , scott , right ? So does that make sense ? When I say that , I mean it's super interesting .

And the danger is that we start to hold people accountable for a gift they don't have , because if they're not in the same space , if they don't have the same experience , they don't see what we see .

And sometimes I was confusing , I wasn't clear , I didn't communicate exactly what it was I was looking for or really outline what the expectations were . I always owned a little piece in what came back to me . Does that make sense ?

And that's like I'm going to own what's mine to own . We're going to own what's ours to own . We're not just going to play the blame game because nobody wins that .

When we're not getting the results we want , like my example with teaching when we aren't seeing the team inspired , motivated and engaged well , that's data . Yeah , what do I potentially need to own in that ? Oh , I didn't .

The only time they hear from me you know management by exception the only time they hear from me is when something's wrong , right , right , I mean .

So if that's the only game I'm bringing to the table of leadership , quote unquote just talking to them when something's gone wrong and I come across a lot of people where that's kind of what they say I never hear from her unless I've done something wrong . Well , no wonder the team isn't motivated and engaged and inspired by you .

That sounds pretty a natural human reaction a natural human reaction .

And if they're missing those opportunities to shine some rays of light back to the weather quote if they're missing those opportunities , that can be problematic . And so what's the hack ? You know ? I said put a Post-it note on your computer that just says rays R-A-Y-S like rays of light .

Get five of them out this week so that it kind of pushes and punches through the clouds and it shifts the weather right . Even on a cloudy day you get some sun for a period of time . That can be awesome , right , so true , so it's . I think those are two things that come to mind for me . Who are your thinking partners ?

And then , when you're not getting the results you want or that you think are appropriate in relationship parent , child , subordinate , even your supervisor what potentially do you need to own ?

There's probably some lessons there for you if you slow down and pay attention and let them in , but that's hard Again , the kind of you're challenging me to be better quote with my son . He is , there's lessons for me there . There's lessons there are . Of course , there's lessons for him as well , but there's lessons for me too .

But we suffer from a lot of these cognitive biases that you have to enter all these situations with a level of humility because each of us are limited and , as you said , each of us are in process and it's just again . This is like one little strand . I love this conversation because this is one strand of many we can go down and it's just an it's it's .

There's a Wilco . I love the band Wilco and on their one of their most recent albums they have a song called infinite surprise . I love that phrasing too . Infinite surprise , but that's what I kind of like feel about leadership is it's just like it's . There's an infinite number of surprises that I keep stumbling upon and insights that I keep stumbling upon .

But then it always comes back to this master question for me of how do we better prepare people to do this work so that we're more successful ? And if you look at the engagement numbers from Gallup et cetera , the game we brought to the table in 1985 and 1999 , it's not adequate for 2024 . And there's a lot of opportunity there .

books , resources , and I love that because I take notes of all those and the ones I haven't read . Those are my next to read list . I'm curious is there a book that , if you think about , has made an outsized difference in your journey that you would recommend to the leaders listening hey , if you haven't read this , put this on your list .

Of course , I said leadership challenge For listeners that want to learn more , it's a great place to start . It's a great place to start . It's a great place to start , and so I really , really enjoy that work . And then I don't know , I mean I think a recent book that has kind of just stuck with me is Think Again by Adam Grant . I really like his work .

I mean a guy who's really rooted in literature but communicating in a way that is very accessible and again , kind of that translator yeah , you'd mention john maxwell and and or jo I would put jaco in this , in this space as well or assign there's . There's really really good learning and lessons from those individuals .

For sure For me , I love these individuals who are grounded in research and practice and they're kind of in this really nice middle ground , right . So , yeah , those are three that just are foundational for me , that I kind of keep coming back to . How about you ? How about you ?

Oh my goodness , Flip the mic , yeah Like what what are one or two for you that like , okay , that they just pop up to the top .

You absolutely can do that . Yes , that that's one that I think I'll be given away for quite some time yeah , he's great .

in that type of an environment , choosing to take the high road and leading other people to join us . Yeah , and it was just . It was so timely . When I read it and I said okay , and to talk about a perfect time , perfect timing , you know when , the when , when I read that , I thought this is one that I'm going to be handing out as well .

And so I mean , just look at , like the polls conversation right now . It's just like this poll , this poll , this poll , big business , right , click , click , click , click , click . And what transcends that ? So that we are the United States ?

I want to thank you for your generosity today in sharing from your insights and your wisdom that you've gained so far in your journey . They've certainly benefited me and I know our listeners as well .

When they're raising their hand , stepping into the arena , yes , it's awesome stuff .

Second , if you don't have a copy of my newest book , catalytic Leadership , I'd love to put a copy in your hands . If you go to catalyticleadershipbookcom , you can get a copy for free . Just pay the shipping so I can get it to you and we'll get one right out . My goal is to put this into the hands of as many leaders as possible .

This book captures principles that I've learned in 20 plus years of coaching leaders in the entrepreneurial space , in business , government , nonprofits , education and the local church . You can also connect with me on LinkedIn to keep up with what I'm currently learning and thinking about .

If you're ready to take a next step with a coach to help you intentionally grow and thrive as a leader , I'd be honored to help you . Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me . You Just go to catalyticleadershipnet to book a call with me . Stay tuned for our next episode next week . Until then , as always , leaders choose to be catalytic .