Hello, and welcome to Castle of Horror, the show dedicated to horror movies and awesomeness. This week we have a look at the nineteen ninety four horror film Wolf. This is episode four hundred and fifty seven. Bear in mind if you haven't seen today's movie, we're going to be talking about it from the perspective of horror fans who have seen it. So warning spoilers ahead. From Denver, Colorado, I'm your host, Jason Henderson, publisher at castle Bridge Media,
home of the Castle of Horror anthology. With me from Austin is Tony Sabaggio, lead singer and bassis of the band Deserts of Mars and lead guitarist to the band Rise from Fires. Hello, Tony Howdy, also in Austin. Mister Drew Edwards is the writer creator of the long running underground comic Halloween Man, which you can find at Global Comics. He is a Best Writer Ringo nominee, Austin Chronicle Best of Austin Award winner and a member of the Penn America Fellowship. Say Hello, Drew.
Also a man of taste and individuality or is that vulgarity in conformity? I can't decide that's nice.
I like that, and it sounded like you were going to break into song, honestly, and finally, also in Denver color. Commentary from Julia Gusman of Gusman Immigration of Denver Say Hello, Hello, Hello Okay.
Wolf.
Wolf is a nineteen ninety four American romantic horror film directed by Mike Nicholson starring Jack Nicholson. This is a heck of a cast, all right. I know I say that all the time, and sometimes it's less true than others. But this time it really is Jack Nicholson, Michelle Pfeiffer, James Spader, Kate Nelligan, Richard Jenkins, Christopher Plummer, David Hyde Pierce. It was written by Jim Harrison and Wesley Strick and apparently an uncredited Elaine May. The music was composed by
Enny O. Morriconi. And sometimes you can really hear it, you can really hear the morriconiness, and then sometimes it sounds like somebody else. So le's got our opening thoughts, Julia. I don't think we've started with you in a few weeks, which makes sense because we go around Robin. So let's go, Julia, Drew, Tony and then I'll go Julia. Well, first of all, we watched this together in the movie theater back in nineteen ninety four, so I don't know if you remembered it at all.
I didn't really. I mean it felt familiar, but I didn't remember it. However, this is one of those films where, because I know when it came out, it's like so just frozen in a moment in time. We had just gotten married, we were in law school, and the day it comes out is the day that O. J. Simpson White Bronco Chase happens. So it's like so much just like, oh, I know exactly when this is. But no, I think this is a really fun movie. I love the cast.
It's really interesting to see that, like you said, it's Marconi. It was supposed to be John Williams, but then he couldn't wait around because it got delayed. The movie got delay. There's so many different casting choices that were supposed to be somebody else, and so I've just this could have been a completely different film, depending on if the original people that they wanted had all been available. But anyway,
but it turns out great. But of course Jack Nicholson was always I mean, he was the one who wanted to do it, so he was, and he's so perfect for this. He's such a wolf. So I think it's fun. I had a blast watching it.
Wonderful. Thank you Tony laid on me.
Yeah, this is definitely I'm with you that it's kind of it's very much a time capsule. I don't think I caught it until later, just because of the timing of everything. I probably caught it a video I remember, maybe cable. Like, Yeah, I think it's got an excellent cast. I've seen a lot of like, got a lot of criticism evidently, but I don't know, it's pretty solid over all in my opinion. Excellent cast, great score. It's kind
of trying to do something interesting. It's kind of a smaller film than like maybe We're American were Wolf in London. You know, it's but I I think it does some interesting things. And of course, you know, everybody who needs to chew up the scenery is chewing up the scenery in the best possible way, and you know the way that it's yet another film that shows like, hey, here's
all the rich people acted. You know, this is a publishing company, but it's you know, sorry, Jack, this is the way things work in the biz kind of thing. And you know, who are the monsters?
Really? Right?
I yeah, I dug it. I'm glad we're covering it.
It is a you know, we've been doing these, we've been doing werewolf movies, and this is probably going to be our last one for a while. And it was chosen by Drew, and I think it is a neat one to cap it off with. Drew, what are your opening thoughts?
Well, you know, this is definitely the most a list of all the werewolf movies that we've covered. I mean, we covered some recent ones that were fairly big productions, but I don't think quite on the level of this. I really have come to like this movie a lot.
I can't rememb remember what my thought. I did see it in the theater when it came out, because when I was a teenager, I basically saw every new horror and sci fi movie, like basically the moment they came out, but I can't really remember what my thoughts were at the time. I think though, that this is a movie.
I know it.
It has gotten criticism and continues to get criticism from some people, but for me, this is a movie that has aged like a fine wine. Like I think the more times I watch it, the better it gets, you know, I really think that it Honestly, if if it had been better received at the time, I think that this would be considered one of the pillars of the werewolf genre instead of that, you know, seene as sort of
a kind of oddity of the nineties. But I think a lot of the choices that that are kind of batted around, you know, among fan circles, like the choice of doing a more minimal were wolf makeup, have aged really well. I think if they had done a bunch of cgi effects or done a really heavy makeup on Jack Nicholson, I think you would have lost with what is possibly the best special effect in the whole movie,
which is Jack Nicholson's naturally wolfish face. But I think this is a really interesting take on the were wolf genre. I think it's it's kind of meat as a kind of sort of but not really a remake of The Wolf Man. And I'm happy to be talking about it.
This This movie does age extremely well. I mean, I I this is this is my opening thought. You know, there's this is a movie that i'd kind of forgot existed, and it's it makes me aware that we are so affected by the reputation that a movie has. It's not like this has a bad reputation, but as far as I can tell, people's opinion about it was sort of like why is it there? Like why what you know? Where? Why did it happen? What was the meaning of it?
And so it got cast aside. But I don't feel like it hits any wrong notes that come to mind right now, And so, you know, it's just really strong. And then I'm such a sucker for anything that is deeply timestamped. And there's so much going on in the world of the nineteen nineties that's sort of on display around the edges of this movie. That's you know, I just I just really enjoyed it from beginning to end. It doesn't it doesn't wear out. It's welcome, all right,
So let's start. You know, I want to talk about the cast, but I think first we should put this in context. So, Drew, you were talking about how this movie is actually part of a system of nineties classic monster revivals that they were trends of the nineteen nineties. This is not the one we always think of but it is one that it's it is definitely a part.
Well like if you look back to the Coppola Dracula, that did kick off a trend of getting a list directors, a list actors and big budgets to revisit classic monster characters. And there was the Kenneth Brouna Rankenstein with Robert de Niro as the monster, and then you had this, and then you also had Mary Riley, which was a take on Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde with you know, Julia Jo and Julia Roberts. Yes, and you know, you could even kind of grandfather the remake of The Mummy in that,
even though it would be the tail end. But you know, all of these, all of these movies, you know, they didn't they weren't created in a vacuum. It was created because one thing was successful, and so studios did what studios always do. They started looking at what IP they could mine. And of course the thing is about the classic monster characters, most of them are public domain. The Wolfman is not, which is why this is only a
kind of sort of remake of the Wolfman. But it's or I would call it maybe a spiritual successor to
the Wolfman. But you know, this movie, I think also even with people who are genre savvy, and because like when people are thinking about genre trends in the nineties, of course everybody the horror cliche is the teen slasher, the grace that was started by screen and that was a behemoth, I get it, but that was really more the tail end of the nineties, you know, like like horror, the horror genre, you know, was a lot more amorphous through like the earlier part of the decade, and these
types of movies, these sort of you know, what we would probably call now call it elevated horror. But like, you know, these these movies that came out, you know, we're definitely part of a trend, and I think it's weird that no one really talks about it. And I think that also this movie, even among the few sort of you know times I have seen that talked about, this movie does kind of get left out of that as well, because all those other movies were gothic period pieces.
In this movie is of course contemporary, although I would argue that it's contemporary in the same way The Wolfman, the original Wolfman was a contemporary nineteen forties movie, but also lived in this weird world where there's this, This lives in a fun house mirror version of the nineteen nineties. And so I'm comfortable saying that this movie wouldn't exist without all those other movies, and that that that kind of answers your question of the how and the world
why of this movie as to why it exists. That's why because studios saw that Dracula was successful, so they they started thinking, well, what other famous monsters of film land can we dust all.
It's really I mean, first of all, I love what this thing looks like. I know that we just watched a nineties movie last week, so so this is sort of repeating my thought. But there's a look of nineties pictures that that I find just very interesting to look
at the color here. This movie takes place ostensibly in New York City, although the office building they're in is the Bradbury Building, which is this really interesting building with these right these these iron gated elevators everywhere and the elevator operators, and it's.
It is the nineties iron irons.
Just yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, there's it's the night exactly as you said, Drew, it's the nineties, but kind of with a forties gloss in a sense. I mean a lot of times I felt, in fact that it was like The Big Sleep or something, because with especially with Jack Nicholson getting involved in this really rich guy's you know, kind of kind of wild daughter who lives in a little,
a little garden cottage on this grand estate. I mean, in many ways it felt like a classic, you know, Sam Spade kind of movie, except for that Jack Nicholson is a book publisher turning into a werewolf. And but gosh, what a cool looking movie. I thought, you know, I didn't even know. I wouldn't have had any awareness of this in the nineties because the picture is that we're looking at that world is gone now. So yes, so, by the way, and I'd love to get you guys
thoughts on this. Do you find that you're poisoned by the reputations that a movie has. I mean, for instance, if somebody goes, I'm gonna I'm gonna see I don't know, I mentioned The Big Squeak. I'm going to watch the Robert Mitchum remake of The Big Sleep from nineteen seventy eight, somebody goes, oh, yeah, well, I remember that wasn't very popular.
Does that cause you to already kind of have a well this movie doesn't count or some sort of minor vote against it, or are you affected by the reputations of films at all?
I think that for me personally, it usually has led to me maybe not watching something and then being like I to be fair, I've seen more things that where I went, oh, I heard that wasn't so great, and then I watched it went or are people talking about at the time? Right, Yeah, this is like at the very least maybe like solid sometimes great. But you also have to think, like, you know, how many movies we
enjoy were critically panned at the time. Yeah, click it, but like the thing was an example, like you just didn't do that well at like wild for whatever reason. So like I have found more often that somebody will go, no, no, you really should see that. Now. On that note, I don't think I've ever seen like ishtar right, And you know,
but again people like, no, you should revisit that. I haven't, but like I I don't since I've discovered since we can stream more things and you can just pick up something you're not making, you're not you're not financially beholden to you know, five bucks rental. I find myself. I don't know if I'm just kind of more game for whatever, or just like I or just because I love movies. So for me, it doesn't necessarily color it like maybe
maybe coming into it you'll be a little hesitant. But I've discovered so many things that I don't think I have that same reticence. It's more like, yeah, I guess I should, Like I've heard enough good things, now I should I should really see that you know, movie X, you name it. I mean there's there's dozens probably well, but yeah.
I find you know, I find that I'm not I am not susceptible. And this is because I guess I've reached a certain age, right there was certainly an age where are somebody making a snarky comment about something about how a kind of movie is not cool or whatever. This has probably been true since my twenties that it just has no effect in me anymore, you know it. It's always me and the piece, and if the piece is good, then I it just doesn't matter to me.
Like I could be at a party and go, oh, I watched this movie, and they go oh, those kind of movies are so stupid or some nonsense comment, and you go, well, no, I recommend you give this a shot. You just have to, just because I think people go through life and they just repeat stuff because like as though they're in a groove, as though they're just sort of saying things that have been handed out in little
cards that you're going to say. And you know, but the great thing about the world we live in now you're right with Truby. It can farm something up to you and you go, huh okay, I'll check that out and it turns out, you know, it's a neat piece of work.
Yeah. But also you know, I also think about traditionally liking horror movies and you know, weird B movies and stuff. Growing up that was often the case of like, how could you watch that?
Right?
Whatever, so snarky comment. As an adult, it can make my own choices.
And have I have a lot less Yeah, it just doesn't matter, right.
Okay, man?
Sure?
Whatever?
Well, I mean I live.
Sorry, you don't enjoy stuff elsewhere.
Right, No, I was just thinking I live for TV miniseries and melodramas and and nineties thrillers and all kinds of stuff that people think doesn't really have a place in critical thinking, and it just doesn't matter to me. It has meaning to me, and that's and that's good enough. Okay, I'm sorry, we've been out in outer space. Let's uh, I will bring it back. Uh, let's talk about cast. So Jack Nicholson, here's what's weird true. This will this
might intrigue you. I feel like this is one of the last movies where I saw Jack Nicholson play something kind of like a normal person, like because I feel like I'm not even sure what was going on after this, but I kind of find I.
Think it's kind of the opposite. It's the last movie that he does it's sort of horror ish, whereas after this he only plays. I feel like he only plays, and.
I think he started kind of evolving into almost spoofing his own persona.
Yeah, you're he's playing a he's playing a book editor. He's losing his hair, he's trying to But.
A lot of that is well, okay, So one thing that I'm not going there where you want to go.
I'm not going.
Back on my opening thoughts, but this is the I will say. One flaw that this movie has is we never see Jack Nicholson as who he was before the wolf bite. You know this this thing opens on a beautiful shot of the full moon, and within two minutes, Jack Nicholson has been bitten by a wolf. So and it's a beautifully shot sequence. The cinematography is very dreamy. So I'm not saying that it shouldn't be in there,
but we are only inferred. Like like the thing that they keep saying about Jack Nicholson's character, Oh you're a nice guy. Oh, you know, there's all this stuff to put forth the idea that that his character is the sort of put upon, you know, doormat of a guy.
But we never really see that because you know, the next thing, we know, we're at a dinner party and Jack Nicholson's giving like a full on you know, Jack Nicholson, you know, I hate the nineties speech and and you know we have you know, with the people other party guests being all disgusted at his Jack Nicholson monologue, with
it's full of Jack Nicholson type dialogue. And I mean there's still stuff that happens when we see you know, like we learned that his you know, his wife's having an affair and that she's having an affair with his protege. We see this stuff that his his life is kind of being you know, disassembled because perhaps he was a doormat.
But we never see Jack Nicholson really play that. We only see Jack Nicholson the but the guy that's turning into a where and the way where wolf it works in this movie is it's not like, you know, he's only where a were wolf by night. You know, he's always wolfy, you know.
With the full moon, it's just any well, it's.
Like the it's like the fuller the moon gets the wolf f ere he gets.
But yeah, that's what I thought, Like the.
The you know, it's it's the guy they come in in to explain the lore. It's like it's always it's always present. And you know we see that in his behavior. He's aggressive, his his and he his hair starts to come back in. He says snarky Jack Nicholson esque things, and you know, and look, I'm I'm you know, I when I plunk down my money to watch Jack Nicholson play a werewolf, I don't want to see Jack Nicholson
necessarily playing against type. But I do think maybe five ten minutes of him playing a nerdy book editor probably would have helped the transition seem a little bit more extreme.
That's a good point. And it's weird how how Nicholson he's so watchable that I don't care, right, Oh, he's great. How Nicholson is such a ball of affectations, you know, with the licking is his you know, his like doing the thing with his tongue, like he has a bad taste in his mouth, and the sort of sometimes bug eyed look in the well.
There was ever if there was ever a guy that was perfectly cast as a as a middle aged where wolf, it was Jack Nicholson.
Oh no, he's by the way, all that stuff I just said sounds like I don't like Jack Nicholson, But it's that's not it at all. I really I really enjoy him. But if you think of like Jack Nicholson before he was Jack Nicholson, you know, like I don't.
Know Roger Roger Corman, Jack Nicholson, Roger Corman, Jack Nicholson.
Can I tell you a bit from IMDb about about Jack Nicholson. So apparently he's allergic to spirit gum, and so they were he was. He told Rick Baker not to use the spirit gum. So he used something else. But then one day it seems like somebody accidentally, I guess it's bigger. I accidentally put spirit gum. And so the next day he came in like broke out in hives and he goes, he goes, Ricky, boy, you used
spirit gum, didn't you. I'm just imagining about terrifying. Terrifying that would be to have Jack Nicholson like coming in looking like this is.
But when I talk about him being this is the this is the thing, It's very difficult to bury Jack Nicholson under any role. And that was Stephen King's problem with him as Jack Horance is like he's not playing Jack Torrance. He's playing Jack Nicholson and that's a different guy. But but it's fine. But because we the audience benefit from it, you know.
I think that's that's why you cast him in things that his persona works for, kind.
Of when you wanted to do this for twelve years ago.
And I think that this is a plumb role for him. I think that the you know, the idea of aging book editor turns into a werewolf. I think that that's that's a good Jack Nichol but it's a good it's a good Jack Nicholson roll. The same way. The Joker is like a role that's sort of tailor made for Jack Nicholson because it just even before you see him and the get up. You know, Jack Nicholson has that cheshire n Yeah.
But anyway, when I said he plays a normal person, he's a book editor, he's put upon, he's suffering with middle age, all of that stuff, and that's you know, it was cool to see him being even close to approachable before he starts to turn into this this wolf and the I do want to get onto James Spader, but before we do that, I want to talk about the many changes that his character goes through, because you're right, we don't really see him very very long before he
gets bitten. But still the process takes time.
There's still a transformation, Like like you said, his hair starts coming. He just something about his performance. He'd starts standing up straight, or he's more. He looks younger. I don't know if it's the makeup. Also, he looks younger as as he progresses, which I thought it was.
They definitely went out of their way to present him as more handsome as he came on because like, yeah, his you know, they they they you know, put a put a piece on him to make his hair thicker. But I also think they probably did some subtle makeup to make his jawline more difference.
Yeah, and like I think they they spray tanded him a little bit.
Maybe.
Yeah, like he and you know, his body language, like you said, like he starts presenting is more like athletic and more. I mean they have like a whole bit of business with him and his his you know, unfaithful life where his libido is sort of reawakened.
Well that, yeah, he's got the night where he you know, he like he's always growling at the women when he when he's getting frisky with them, and so he wants he like rips off her room with his teeth and in front of the don't home of the church that they live next to. And and then the next day when he smells like he could tell that his wife is having sex with James Trader's character because of his
acute sense of smells. So when she says she's going out of town, he goes up, immediately goes over to James Trader's house and and leaves up the stairs fully like, fully wolf style. That was fantastic. That was so cool.
I love the way that they shot all the jumping effects because it's it's.
Great sunt guys, great stuntwork.
It's weirdly dream like like. It has this fanciful quality that you know like it it does feel supernatural. I don't.
It's like, haven't you told me that you've had dreams of leaping upstairs?
I always No, I always have dreams that I can fly around as I go down. Not usually well, some it's ups, but mostly it's down that I don't have to touch the stairs, only the rail, like, so I can just grab the rail and kind of swing around the stairs like you know how that guys do in the movies sometimes, And I don't know if they do this in real life, where they just jump into a convertible. I could do that, but with the stairs, like I don't have to touch the stairs, just go around.
So do you wish you were a Jack Nicholson style were wolf so you could just jump the stairs?
I'd rather be Michelle Feiffer's style were wolf.
Well yeah, I mean, being a werewolf in this movie doesn't actually seem that bad.
I mean, it depends on how you interpret the end.
Like a couple couple of questions. One is who are because there apparently is a theory out there in the in the world that Michelle Pfeiffer was already a wolf and that she's the one who bit him because we never see her actually get bitten or anything. So I think that's a really interesting idea. But the question is
like who are these wolves? Because there's the two wolves, like the one he hits, and then there's another wolf standing with that wolf off to the side after he you know, after the wolf runs off, So it was like, who are these wolves? Why is is there like an epidemic of are they going to be like hundreds of wolves anyway? But but I loved the reading about the training of like how they how they work with the wolves and the birds and all the other and the horses.
It's just so cool to see just kind of how because they are you know, yes, there were some animatronics, but they actually do have a real wolf German shepherd, you know, mixed, and then they have real the horses are you know, obviously trained, and there's some like birds that are trained anyway. It's just kind of neat too.
We went to the wolf preserve. I mean, I'm sure that we've talked about this before, but I was shocked. I had no idea, you know, in my mind, I guess wolves were the size of coyotes. The see these these animals that are like the size of a Honda gold Wing. I was like Jesus Christ, like that thing is huge, huge, and I was I was just just blown away by that. Okay, now, James Spader, this is James Spader, Mark one still around and ste Pink Yeah,
and he is. Boy, what a well written character. Good grief. I mean that just his ability this this character, so you know, kind of I'm I'm giving James Spader he's good, but I'm giving him credit for what the character is written as. But his just his ability to say any bullshit at any time that has no none, no veracity whatsoever. None. He will he will just say anything that he thinks will make him look good. And it doesn't even sound like he himself believes it. It's amazing.
The whole movie he's talking about how he is will Randle Jack Nicholson character. Oh I'm your friend, I'm your friend, I love you. I'm doing this even though he is the guy that is fucking his life right and still literally.
And him over at work stole his.
Job, and like.
Like I just I just feel I just feel terrible about it.
If you want me to, I will walk in and resign. And so the first time he says that, you're like, say yes. He didn't say yes. But the second time he's like okay, He's like, okay, you got me. I'm not going to do that, but he does.
Oh my god, my god.
When he becomes a werewolf. He's just it's kind of like the rules of you know, various supernatural things will be like like like I don't know, I'm trying to think what the things are, but where you know, they'll say if you're a good person, it enhances your goodness, and if you're a bad person in this world, it's like, if you're an okay guy, then you're not going to be a really horrible like murderous wolf, but if you're a sleaze ball, you're gonna be a murderous wolf. And
that's what he turns out to me. He's like immediately, well he's.
Sort of the becomes like the embodiment of I mean, there's a whole lot about toxic masculinity going on in this movie. But he he kind of becomes the embodiment of it. Like he he is super rapey, and he is constantly objectifying Michelle Pfeiffer's character with every every you know, like I forget what he says to the security guard at the end, but oh, doesn't she look like the fuck of the century or something like that, you know, my business is pleasure or something.
And his immedia instinct is even before he's a wolf, is to just invade your personal space if your woman like, he's just or of your guy too, I guess, but for sure if your woman like he's just standing so closer.
Well, he already was a predator even becoming before becoming a were wolf. And one of the things I do find really interesting about this movie movies take on the whole were wolf thing is is, you know, being a predator the way an animal is predatory, which is to say, you know, you hunt for food, you hunt for protection,
you protect your territory. That is not necessarily an evil thing, you know, that's just animals being animals, and you know, and in the case of Will Randall, it's it's it's actually good that he starts displaying some of you know, that characteristic because he needed he needed to defend his territory and and he does, in fact literally pe on James sad at one point.
Again that's because he's like in his personal space.
But if you are a predator the way James Spader is a predator, a predatory the way a predatory human is like, then you do kind of get like the classic you know, evil werewolf, Like he's you know, his is it's like you said, Julia, his negative traits are kind of enhanced, and you know, the entire time you're in the end of this movie, I don't think he blinks once. Like he's got these yellow contacts in and you know, his hair is he's getting more hairy, like would.
Suck, like I bet, but they those contacts are horrible to wear.
They look great, and I like the way they you know, just he's you know, we don't really see him as a full on werewolf that much, but he's so good. In the climax of this movie, he makes a really strong impression that you know, like he's he's pretty terrifying, honestly, you know, because you have Jack Nicholson kind of playing like the lawn Cheney Junior, like I'm cursed. I don't necessarily what this, and you know, James Spader is just like, well,
I'm a were wolf. I guess, yeah, I guess I'm gonna go have to murder some folks.
Although that is a weird shorthand from the movies. I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but the movie will be about character a wh who runs into weird thing that makes them go through a big transformation. The whole movie is about that. The character of be before the end of the film will go through the same transformation, and we'll kind of pick it up instantly through the power of evil. Because you can have talking.
About iron Man and Rody are you yes.
Well not Roady. Rody is a good guy. But but I'm.
Just saying that what happens, well yeah, but I'm saying like, also, Roady immediately knows.
You're exactly right. Yes, that is a that is an interesting I'm not complaining. It is just a thing that that that always happen.
Do wear wolf powers need an instruction manual though.
I mean maybe it has to do in this case with maybe evil is a little easier like maybe James Spader just has a stronger personality. Who knows, But to get back.
What he's saying, is it because he doesn't necessarily black out the way Jack Nicholson blacks out? That's true, you know, like when Jack Nicholson becomes a were wolf, he sort of dissociates.
Yes, But the well, I don't know if we know that, if we know that James Spader remembers stuff after he's he seems to remember.
He seems to be remember eating Will's wife.
Yeah, the I just want to mention, by the way, other great Spader stuff. So Spader was in this movie called Bad Influence in nineteen ninety where he plays a put upon yuppie. It's kind of against type. He's a put upon yuppie who who's who's fiance kind of thinks he's a schmock and who doesn't get any respect. And he meets this greasy drifter made by Rob Lowe who comes in and says, you know, why don't you learn
to live a little. And so they start going out together and finding the wild side and living a little and discovering a whole new world that existed. As I say it, I think there's a metaphor going on here. The movie wasn't acknowledging. And then but it turns out, I mean it's Rob Low.
You don't need if you have a hot guy bringing another hot guy out into the world.
Yeah, but but on on on the surface, it remained sort of chastily heterosexual. But anyway, uh, just a killer movie.
A killer movie.
By the way, Rob Low turns out to be dangerous, so so it doesn't. But it was. It was just so interesting.
Is dangerous in real life?
But it was. It was really it was really neat seeing that version of of James Spader where where he's not he's not the sleeves ball, he's the one sort of being led down and then sexualized and videotape good so good in that. And then now James I called that one James Pader Mark one. Now we have James Pader Mark two, the sixty something, and he is a totally different person. He's still the ship.
But ye, Raymond Reddington is a scary assue guy, but he's not slimy.
He's just like something again.
Robert California from the Office is, oh my god.
Yes, yeah, that's the transitional guy, like transitional.
Yes. By the way, when you're talking about I want to go back to when you're talking about how you know, how do you know how to do this and stuff? Aren't we to infer that since wolves come into the world and operate on instinct, that once you're what you're wearaboll, you also know these things by instinct. That's what I I there's a lot of training because it's your big wolves have instinct like animals, you know, swim and do
all all the things that they do. They're taught, of course, you know, but but there's a lot of stuff that's instinct. And I always have thought that you learned by that's just the nature of your animal side knows these things. Yeah, and also forms your person. You're okay, I'll buy you absolutely.
Yeah.
Also, once Jack stops resisting, he's he's an exceptional werewolf like he he takes out James Spader pretty pretty handily.
No, you're right, so let me ask a question. I'm sorry, go ahead, I apologize.
I just something I was thinking about when you're thinking about these actors in you know, going into the twenty first century, is just the proliferation of superhero films as you have the Joker, romancing Catwoman who is also the Loss, and they're they're going up against Ultron.
It's a really good point. Good grief. Yeah, that's a really what a what a what a world? Yeah? Michelle Pfeiffer speaking of Catwoman who is also the Wasp, All right, why are we to so again? The character looks to me like a lift from The Big Sleep. She is the daughter who has secrets and and is kind of the black sheep of the family and blah blah blah. But it is is her interest in Jack Nicholson, Julia, I will let you speak for the gender because I'm lost.
Is her interest in Jack Nicholson a fantasy of the screenwriter? Or is there some in story reason?
For all know, there's so many story reasons. Number one, if in fact she was already a wolf, she's drawn to the wolf. Number two, she's interested. She's got daddy issues for sure, because of Christopher Christopher Plumber who just always is, you know, at odds with her and basically rejects her. So she definitely has daddy issues. She wants to piss off her dad, like you know, you can know that she seems that he didn't even like this guy. Well that's what another issue was. I'm saying she's got
daddy issues. Plus she wants her dad.
She even shades that because she says, you're inappropriate.
Right, inappropriate, And she's probably drawn to like this the wounded, you know, like the whole save, save the save, because you know, women all all women everywhere. I'm kidding, No, many women like to save a guy, you know, like like to find a guy. That's that's why so many women end up with the bad boy or whatever, or they end up chasing him because they're like, I can, I can, like I can tame him, you know. So
I think there's definitely that aspect. Well, so I think there's a lot about him that's attractive to her for sure.
Also is Jack I mean I kind of already know the answer to this because I've had plenty of women tell me that Jack Nicholson is attractive. But is Jack Nicholson attractive?
Yeah, and this film is attractive and sometimes he's not, but then this one he definitely is because you can see that he's you know, he's got confidence, he's got you know, he's got a great smile, he's got very interesting like it's they're you know, they're not objectively attractive. His eyebrows aren't objectively attractive, but they're very interesting and kind of sexy, and you know, he just yeah, the confidence is super attractive.
There you have it, folks, that's lean into lean into the confidence.
Julia would do. Jack Nicholson, do.
You know you remember they were also in the Witches of Eastick together, right, wasn't wasn't Michelle Pfeiffer one of one of the witches? Yeah? Wow, what a what a run? Yeah, Michelle Pfeiffer. Gosh, she was also in in To the Night. That is one of my favorites with her. We so Julia and I occupy a space where if one of us starts grease too, the other must sit down and watch the rest of the movie, like we cannot.
All of the songs and say.
Most absolutely I'm here for it and and yeah, so you know, yeah, we're for Greece to Loving Household.
This is definitely just like how James Vader's steph This is Stephanie.
They're both Yeah, Stephanie is Anony was definitely a better gang leader than Denny Zuko. I will I will stand I will stand by that. My favorite Michelle Pfeiffer is into.
The night lady. Then then uh then, oh my god, John Channing, Olive John No Starcard Channing's great. I love you, John made Off.
I'm like, yes, all right, but anyway, here's I mean, I gotta admit and so you're right, everything you said is absolutely true. I still feel like, considering all the scenery tewing going on with James Spader and Jack Nicholson, that Michelle Pfeiffer is playing a fairly grounded person, considering she's the rebel her character, she's the most reasonable one, you know, she's and she's the one who wants to keep an eye on Jack. She's the one who wants
to keep him from dying of a heart attack. I mean, you know, because she's she's apparently I can't remember what her job is, but she knows all this medical stuff.
But she's a psychiatric nurse.
Okay almost she says, he's almost a psych which I don't know if that means she's in school or what. So imagine if you will, in this part, either Mia Farrow, who is who was somebody that say Elsie she was Oh no, she was slated to play Charlotte. Which one's Kate. That makes sense she was gonna play Charlotte. Yeah, But so in Laura's part was they had asked Sharon Stone, and they had asked who's the other person? They both were asked, so imagine that.
I mean, Sharon Stone is such an aggressive actor, like like every everything I've ever seen her in, she she comes on real hard and and like, I.
Can see Sharon Stone in this part, but I think she would play it very differently. I cannot see a Net Benning really.
In The American President.
Yeah, it would have to be real rewritten because I you know, like they're they're definitely playing up the age gap aspect of it, and I don't think and at Benning, I'm sure she is younger than Jack Nicholson, but she doesn't read as younger I guess the way Michelle Pfeiffer does. And you know that, you know that is definitely playing as far as like the midlife crisis of it all.
You know, like he he leaves his wife or his wife I guess leaves him, and you know he ends up with a younger girlfriend, so like it.
You know, you.
Asked if there's a fantasy aspect of it. Jason, There's definitely there is that, right his wife.
His wife sort of dunes him for a younger hudder man, but he immediately turns around and picks up a younger girlfriend. Although I'm going to shame myself because I screwed this up. I said that Anette Benning would have been too old for the part, and that is not true. Annette Benning and Michelle Pfeiffer the same age. So yeah, so I'm just I was just wrong, plumb wrong.
And then the other one is Christopher Plumber as the dad. Marlon Brando had wanted that role, so that would interest as well.
Oh that would have been im you know, I am glad that did not have I think Marlon Brando is wonderful, but that was.
He really wonderful bye by this point though, like I mean, I don't know, there's a lot of nineties Brando or he seems like he's kind of foam.
I mean, the freshman is is not important, I mean, but it would have been. It would have been like, why is Brando in this?
Like, I mean, it's a Mike It's a Mike Nichols movie, so maybe he would have, you know, not slept walk through it.
But yeah, but you don't want this character to actually draw the camera like this is that the Christopher Plumber character is there to be that, you know, and.
I think by wolves, well, Christopher Plumber has you know, he's he seems like he is in a different movie. But I think that's the right choice for this character because I think in Christopher Plumber's character and the mindset of that character, he is the main character of this movie and his movie is about a He does not know that he is an a werewolf movie. He thinks he's in a movie about a captain of industry taking
over a publishing house. And that is like and I think Marlon Brando would have I don't know, like the way Christopher Plumber has that very clear, concise, you know, delivery, Marlon Brando is much more of like a mumbly you know. I'm just I don't know. I also just the thought of Jack Nicholson and Marlon Brando being in a scene together like as these two characters kind of gives me a headache for some reason.
Well, I also would be terror. I would have this terrible fear that what would happen is somehow Brando would have writers, and the writers would say, we need we think we need some more scenes. How about if he's not such a bad guy, or how about if he gets to do more stuff and suddenly Brando, Brando's character of this publisher who is not the central figure, would be like taking over the picture.
And that would be so Brando really would have made him the main character.
I think somebody that big. It just would have felt lopsided. It would have felt really weird. But you know, what do I know?
So you know, you make a decision. And then the other question. The other thing that was really funny was that when they were thinking about whether they wanted the character to be the dad or the brother, the christophermer character be that Mick Jagger was wanting to be the brother.
So imagine instead she's playing off of Mick Jagger. I mean, anyway, just all these things, Like I say, it's just so interesting to think about a movie with the John Williams score and Mia Farrow is the wife and and that Benning as the as the you know, the love interest, and you know, make sure.
The score.
Yeah, if you want to imagine Brando, remember Brando.
And doctor Moreau and how that is the same thing. And then especially if you watch the documentary Lost Souls on, just how off the rails all of that went, Like I yeah, I don't know, man, I could have this would have been this would have definitely if it was a long that track, I think this would.
Have been a yeah, he's a weird anchor.
Like this like that era it was, it was, there was stuff going on. It's the same like Brando, but like, yeah, you watch that documentary, thank.
You for bringing that documentary up to that's that is really something else. Can we talk about the symbolism of what like aanthropy means here? It's really neat because we talk all the time about how vampires mean different stuff in different movies, But here, I had never thought, Drew, you made this observation, this is lecanthropy as a symbol of the midlife crisis. Feel free anybody who wants to feel free to say more about it?
Well, I mean that's barely subtext. Like I feel like that's almost the text.
That's the movie.
Yeah, he gets he gets bitten, his hair gets thicker, he gets better in the sack, He is better at his job. He defeats his younger rival, he takes out younger gang members, which definitely feels like a somewhat problematic baby boomer fantasy. He he he again gets a younger girlfriend, gets gets you know, you know, he this is, this is and I don't have a don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem within of this being explored in the movie. But this is definitely the power fantasy of an aging man.
He's kind of only missing like a really souped up news movie.
Right, yeah, exactly, That's.
Something that's the only thing he does. We don't see him get.
I mean he did. He did crash his car into a Wolves movie. That's what it was, like a convertible like a maybe that's the next car that got to replace the rect car.
Also, I mean, you know, not for nothing, but he does turn into a four legged wolf, which means he's kind of his own hot ride. So you know, I
that is the movie. And you know, I again, you know that sounds like a criticism and I it's it's really not like because I I think, you know, good horror is where we can kind of play out something because you know, a real life mid life crisis is kind of unsavory, you know, like like but but you know this, you know, and plus who can really afford to have a midlife crisis if you're meaning me, yeah, Like I mean, you know, baby baby boomers could afford
to have mid life crisis is but members of Generation X and millennials definitely cannot. But you know, so like seeing that kind of played out is like a supernatural thing to me. Is it's it's a safe space to kind of explore this stuff. And I actually think this may be the dumbest thing I've ever said that I'm
gonna go ahead and say it. I think it's kind of gutsy of Jack Nicholson to spend like the because you know, this is Jack Nicholson coming off of you know, Batman and a few good Men and things like that. You know, he had he had several big hits under his hand, and he spends the first twenty minutes of this movie be kind of boldly showing off how bald he is.
You know, thank you for mentioning a few good Men, because right now I was we were talking about all of his affectations earlier, and actually a few good Men. He that is a great role because he disappears into that role. You remember, it's Jack Nicholson, but it's got none of the Nicholson mannerisms that.
Well, except when he goes full on you can't handle the truth, like yeah, but that's still like.
He doesn't do like a you can you know, he doesn't do that.
It's just he's just great. Yeah, but you know it's funny. The impression I get looking at people's people's reviews of this at the time is there, like I get it, I get the concept of office politics and emasculation and mid life crisis, but then why does it have to be like in other words, there were a lot of people who sort of ringing their hands, like, but couldn't we just have had Jack Nicholson in a drama about like a publishing house, like do we need the werewolf stuff?
So yeah, and you know, ton monsters make it.
Better, wouldn't you this?
You know, a movie about Jack Nicholson having a regular midlife crisis would be painful and you would not be talking about it exact decades later. Because this is a where because this is a werewolf movie and a big budget Mike Nichols directed were wolf movie. That makes it weird, which makes it interesting. And that's why we're talking about it.
Yeah, no, I I agree, I agree, And Tony talks all the time about the whole concept of the peanut, butter and chocolate. I mean, like, why not you know, what.
Do you I mean, what do you want to go down this route? Then then what do you get? You get Jack Nicholson were Wolf along with the Michael Douglass Dracula falling down and versus falling down Dracula and jac Nicholson Wolf.
You raised about falling down?
Haven't you turned into a Dracula? And then it's Dracula falling down Dracula.
I I think, you know, I think that there is a certain kind of like white collar baby boomer drama that I think critics really wanted in the nineties, and maybe that's what they wanted with this. But you know, to me, like you describe taking the werewolf stuff out of this movie, and I'm just like, that's not a movie I'm interested. And you know, look, I'm it's called
Castle of Horror. I am a genre sure, but you know, like I've seen my fair share of Jack Nicholson movies that and I've never revisited them as many times as I've visited this, Like the bucket list. That's a baby boomer fantasy. Almost old body talks about that movie. If you google search wolf a bunch of think pieces come up about what a weird movie this is, And even the people that don't like it have to kind of begrudgingly admit that it's still in their minds an interesting failure,
even if they think it's a failure. So I firmly, firmly disagree that they take, oh.
No, And I never would suggest that we should do that, that that that that's what it should have been, but that that is the impression that I get when I see people going basically for some reason, I think maybe because of the excellent just all of the high power of all the people involved, the Nickels of it all, and Feiffer and Nicholson and you know, even Spader, and they're like, boy, this is really good, Like why is
it a why is it a Wolfman movie? But I'm glad it is, I mean because it it gives us this this very interesting And you you said.
I already hit the hit the nail on the head. Yeah, Francis fort Coppola made a Dracula movie and it made a lot of money.
Right that was that was exactly why, that's why it happened.
Oh yeah, you know we we we asked, we did ask this question to John and he was like, no, they stop at one, Like okay, we're well right, So the idea is why a monster? Well that's why we pitched I don't you know, like yeah again and we've had we do we need another mid life crisis movie? I don't know, Like I mean, I always interesting.
Bottom line is that Jack Nicholson wanted to make a wolf movie. So they're like, well, who, We're not going to be there?
You go yeah.
I mean to answer your question, though, Tony, I always think we need more of everything. Give me go ahead, because it could be that Tony Savaggio is midlife crisis movie turns out to be one of the most wonderful things ever.
Well, what are the what are the like? You know, if we take a step back and we just view this as a midlife crisis movie, what are the what are the like? We know what the pillars of the werewolf movie are? What are the pillars of the midlife crisis movie? Like Field of Dreams? Like what are what are we talking about here?
Like?
What are the great midlife crisis.
What's the great another fantasy? Yeah, there's the one where Nicholson played the is it terms of Endearment? Where Nicholson plays the astronaut that has retired and he's falling in love with with Oh gosh, I feel terrible now I've seen.
You're struggling to even remember it, but I bet you will remember Wolf.
I will always remember Wolf, and I feel.
Said falling Down.
Falling Down is a midlife crisis movie, but it's a very different kind of like.
Falling Down, I feel gets better every year because you keep going I keep going back to it and looking at and going that this is a movie that seduces you into forgetting who the bad guy is.
You know, in the midlife In a real midlife crisis movie, the guy is the bad guy because he's going to leave his wife for a younger woman and get a stupid sports car, so he's gonna be so it's gonna The midlife crisis movies are actually these movies like you know, The First Wives Club or whatever, you know, where it's like the women are the hero or the heroes or the main the main characters, and then the men are the jerks.
Well that's That's why I'm saying, by adding the werewolf element into this, you make the whole thing more palatable because suddenly it's fantastical.
It's not well in the movie cheats by having Kate Nelligan have heard dellions with James Spader.
Although also to just illustrate how terrible James Spader is.
It is, but I mean, Kate Nelligan's character has has you know, she has she has a will, so you know.
I'm going to take take a moment to say I think she does amazing work with a character that on the page probably wasn't very much because I actually find her fairly sympathetic in a in a character that on glance is not a very sympathetic character.
Right, she's going through her own stuff.
I think she does a really good job playing this character.
I think she does, but I didn't find her sympathetic. But I agree with you that she does a great job playing the characters.
She's really good in Eye the Needle. By the way, if I now there's a movie I haven't watched in like thirty years, but or longer, I don't think I've seen Eyland Needle since like it was on HBO back in the eighties, but I remember her being good, you know, and she's certainly good in Dracula, by the way, the nineteen seventy nine Dracula. All right, so let's talk about the ending real quick, and then I want.
To wear a wolf smack down.
Yes, okay, the finale, the big finale is a monster fight, which is sweet. But I want to know because you can talk about that all you want and so, but I also I want to understand what is happening at the end, Like, is this like Dracula and Susan Saint James at the end of Love at First Bite? Are they running off together to be supernatural creatures together? Is he going to be able to turn back into Jack Nicholson or is he forever a wolf in the park now? Like what what's he's forgetting?
Stupid?
But I don't think that that's I think that's meant to be open ended the way the movie, like, you know, because there's certainly an interpretation where you could say, well, the next morning he wakes up and he's Jack Nicholson again, but he's going to go through this metamorphosis all over again through the next the next moon cycle, which is fair but also you know maybe maybe, Yeah, him and Michelle Pfeiffer are going to go off and be demon
Will together and you know that's their happy ending. But I mean his life is as Will Randall is over no matter what, because you know, he's been falsely accused of his wife's murder and Michelle Pfeiffer made it look like he fled the country.
So yeah, I don't understand why she didn't, Well she didn't accept responsibility for shooting James Spader and go he came in here and he was trying to rape me and kill me, and he confessed that he killed this other woman whatever, you know, like why not then there would have it would be fine for well.
Especially she's rich, she can get away.
Yeah, yeah, she did her house, in her own house, and he clearly was trying to be rapy. Everybody knew he was like super predatory.
Well, no matter what, she's well totally get away, like like it's self defense from the start.
But there's I was surprised that she didn't do that.
Even even a cop saw him acting like, you know, him acting.
Super Yeah, I believe he was a bad guy.
Yeah, like he he was, you know, acting just off his rocker, So you know, I I, you're right, you can. I can't think of an argument around that, except maybe she doesn't want to out Jack Nicholson is a werewolf.
I don't know, she wouldn't have to.
She wouldn't have to because it.
Doesn't want out out herself as a were wolf.
I don't know.
I don't think she out to anybody's WORLF. I think all she does is say this, you know, this jerk showed up at my house because she'd already told the security guard not to let anybody in, and so she's like she could be like, you know, this guy was hitting on me at the police station. He stocked me. I told my security guards not to let him, and he came here, killed my security guard, and the yeah,
tried to write me and so I shot him. Period that there's nothing about about where it has to be mentioned about anyway, I mean unless unless he's still in word. I don't know if when she shoots him a few reverts back to human or not.
If you still they show it, they show.
There there was no you never have to mention anyth about where worlds then.
Well I guess so, Yeah, lots of questions left behind as they wrap it up pretty quickly because it is almost again almost identical to the end of Love It First Bite, where they go off together words.
I never thought I would love it First Fight.
Man, that well, that movie was super important to me. When I know, I know, yes, can you put in the one reading of it.
The internet?
I'm going to say, I know, sweet, you love it first by.
I studied at the altar of the Master like Jack Nicholson.
I can. I can live with it because I still love Love It First Bite.
I am a look. Plenty of the movies that I love are crap, but you know.
There's not to Jason. I just love play of the movies. I like crap, so you can crap movie. It's just, buddy. I don't mean to rag on you. It's just.
I said what I said. What I said.
We're gonna have to do a whole nother episode again. I love it First Bite.
Just I think my baby's sick.
That weekend, whatever weekend is, yeah, exactly, we move it's a Tuesday.
Oh no, that's definitely not all right.
So that's the ending, which we're.
We need to talk about. Two things awesome were Wolf Fight, where the werewolves use tools. The were wolves in this movie are smart enough to pick up brakes, to pick up hedge clippers and stab motherfuckers with it. They're smart enough to run people over with their cars. That is pretty fucking unique, like were wolves don't normally do shit like that. And also Rick Baker, Academy Award winning werewolf Master, the guy that if you went a awesome were wolf,
the guy that has done three very different werewolves. I might add, because you have the four legged hell hound from American Werewolf in London, you have you know, the very minimal were wolf makeup in this and then you have the full on Jack Pierce throwback in the Joe Johnston Wolfman. Like Rick Baker is the motherfucking werewolf Master.
And for this movie, for the biting stuff that they did where Jack Nicholson basically looks like he unhinges his jaw, he built a fully animatronic Jack Nicholson were wolf head and if you can, you can google this and find pictures of it online. And that thing is fucking sweet.
Like like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Two things exactly like that. That is like, you know, if anybody wants to ask why this movie has a reason to exist. It's so that Rick Baker had to make an animatronic Jack Nicholson were wolf head like.
He also had this like little device that made Jack Nicholson's ears wiggle, which I thought was awesome.
So that, Yeah, I think that you know, a lot of people rag on the were wolf makeup in this movie, and I think that's kind of unfair because you know, like, look, I have my preferences on what a were wolf should look like, like we all do, and some people full like the full upright wolf like from the Howling movies,
and some people like the the you know, traditional wolfman. Look, this one kind of went for a throwback to where Wolf of London look for it, and I think that was the right choice because you have guys like James Spader, and you have guys like Jack Nicholson, and they have these great faces. I don't think you cover those up. I think you enhance they're already sort of loopine features.
I think that's the right choice for this movie. It might not be the right choice for every were wolf movie, but it's the right choice for this one.
I love that. I wanted to add to your list of things that the smart that they're so smart that they do. We didn't talk about the fact that he gets that that Jack Nicholson gets that that that pendant thing that like the weird silver wolfman, that the midllion that makes him be able to fight through the transformation.
So he doesn't go killing anybody. But he's so smart that he doesn't take it off except for when he needs to save his love from rape the other world, and then he tears it off because he's like, okay, I need to transform. So he's like smart enough that he knows. I guess he's still kind of human at that point. That's why he's That's why he's able to But the fact is that he doesn't hurt her once he's turned either.
You know, he's like, well, because he's not a bad man ultimately, and I think that that's again, I think they'll were wolf Laura in This is cool. You know, like that if you were if you were not a bad man, you're not going to be a bad werewolf. And you know, and because you have James Spader's character, you can kind of have your cake and eat it too, you know, because like the only people Jack Nicholson is really aggressive to is people who are aggressive. You know,
he's aggressive to people that try to mug him. And I guess, I guess maybe one of those muggers might be turning into a were wolf sometime soon, because we we it doesn't sound like it doesn't sound like all of them die.
I thought he's just ripped through. I know, you ripped through anybody who didn't escape was how I read it.
But he at least, you know, the implication because we later see one of the mugger's moms at the at the at the police. So I'm wondering if Fingers appears. So yeah, I like, maybe he's a were wolf now I.
Found go ahead, Sorry, no, I'm done.
I'm done.
I found the character of doctor v J kind of interesting too, because he kind of fulfills. He starts off as fulfilling and kind of uh.
You know exposition Yeah.
Well, uh you know more Van Helsing kind of roll at first, but by the end of it, he almost wants to be a rin Field, you know, like, hey, can you look, I'm olding you turn me, you know, and and so that that you can imagine though, like if the van Helsing in a movie was like, hey, so look, I'm fighting vampires as well, but like that power. I think I thought that that interaction was really fascinating because not only does he's.
A great scene, but but like you know, like I love his his I love his line about how damnation doesn't exist in his yeah system, Like you know, I think there's some interesting stuff going on there. But aside from that, you know, it's you know, like he also you know, it's a scene where they're talking about were wolf mythology, but they never actually use the word were wolf, right, you know, which I don't think it's ever actually said in this movie at all.
That actor, by the way, his name is own Puri. He is forty four years old. In that scene. He is under heavy makeup, so he's supposed to look a lot older. He has died. Unfortunately, he died in twenty seven. I'm sorry, I said, Rick Baker the Man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he died in twenty seventeen at the age of sixty six, so he died way too early. Yeah, but he was pentastic.
Yeah, it was good.
I just really liked that interaction. I thought it it's the way they they had There's a bunch of different ways you can play that mythology and that discovery, and I think it worked really well in this movie. And again passing on the amulet, which is like it's a different kind of thing in a werewolf movie.
Yeah, well, it's it's kind of combining the idea of like a silver weapon with also the idea of you know, the you know, like the pentagram of the wolf Man. And again, I think this movie's particular hinge on you know, everybody.
You know, I've read a lot of reviews of this movie where they call it a traditionalist were wolf movie, and I think they're looking at the makeup design and seeing that the makeup designs is sort of like a deliberate throwback to like the nineteen thirties and not really looking at what's going on with the actual, you know, occult mythology that they're creating, because it's it's not really a traditional take on because the traditional werewolf mythology is
you know, it's it's sort of you know, dealing with like pent up darkness inside your know. Like the thing about the wolf Man is he's both hero and villain in his own movie, and that's really unique.
But you know, I don't, I mean, does.
Anybody watching this movie ever, really thinking that Jack Nicholson's character is is actually going to be a bad you know, a bad wolf.
No, And the screenwriter, as far as I know, his main complaint was just that the I'm not really sure exactly the initial screenwriter objected to changes made to a script, although that's sort of a common complaint. I mean, you know, lots lots of lots of screenwriters are not happy with what happens to a script that.
Well, I mean, we experienced the whole comic of that, so sure, sure, for sure all the time, I'm still angry. So yes, I get it.
Yeah, yeah, you know, but you're left with the with the version that you have, so we don't. We don't really know like how much wilder, how much more violent, how much sexier the original would have been. We just we just don't know. Although actually, probably somewhere out there you can probably find the original script and find out. All right, cool, let's get our final thoughts and then
come around for for endorsements. I'm I'm super excited because I have I have one, you know, just as a as an advanced warning that is related to James Spader and to Tony So okay, but but all right, final thoughts it was Julia Tony Drew and then I'll go Julia, I mean this has been fun, right, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, No, it's been a really interesting conversation. I can't I mean, I can't believe how much we were able to, like, how many different topics we were able to hit in this time, given that it's not, you know, the deepest of movies. But it's really interesting and you know, I just I think the cast for me just does it all. It's like such a great cast. But but there's a lot of a lot of fun things about it. So yeah, I definitely enjoyed it.
Excellent, Thank you very much, Tony. What about you?
Yeah, I really liked the discussion as well, And I think given time, I think this is perhaps and a more interesting movie than I thought about it. I thought it was when I when I saw it whenever, I don't remember the year, but definitely I was do their own video ka well, so I think revisiting it is really interesting. By the way, on a tangent, we were
talking about were wolf fighting and monster fighting. Yeah, I'm surprised that other than like Kaiju Big Battle, no wrestling company has said, you know, what what if we got there all what if we got all the monsters, like all these monsters to wrestle, Like, I've never seen that Kaiji Big Battle does you know, kind of cool, fun, silly, interesting,
you know, Kaiji type stuff. But other than the ne E s the Amazon, which is the gill Man, I don't think I've ever seen a wrestling company that there should be a wrestling company now that like when you when you mentioned I was just picturing, like why isn't there a gill Man versus Werewolf versus Frankenstein's Monster, so like.
John Cena is like Godzilla's.
More more like just traditional monsters, like because yeah, because we are when we already have the like I said, like Haiji Big Battle wrestling company, which is interesting, but like I've never seen that. I've never seen that seems like a gimmick that's just left out there.
I don't know.
Uh Anyway, that's where my mind goes, so sorry to apologies to the listeners. That's where I'm at. But but yes, as far as this goes, like I think you know, it's a great cast. It is a time capsule, you know, when we're talking about James Spader the kind of Rapie Wolf.
I will say that as an adult watching this, uh it with kind of a more mature mindset, Like that scene is really harrowing and real in ways that if you know, like how that that there's something about that and the way it's shot and the way he like all that's happening, was like, well, this is I don't know, it feels more real than other parts of the movie for sure when he her like her of that stuff
just whoa where Like I didn't. I definitely didn't think of how that was when I first saw it, But seeing it this time, like there's definitely a hey, uh you know, possible trigger warning on that, like that is that was more intense than I remembered it and kind of yeah, I was. I was struck by that. But overall, you know, the in the Werewolf as you know, midlife crisis kind of thing. I mean, that's as much as a lot of the stuff is you know, a time capsule.
That's a you know, choosing and choosing to do that with a and well having the having you know Jack Nicholson say I want to do this movie, you know, and waiting in that time period. Is that what you twelve years.
You read twelve years, and.
That's that's a lot of kind of off and on, and that sadly happens a lot in the industry. But uh, you know, convincing people to get it made and then go in this direction, uh in that that alone is kind of fascinating. So I think it's cool to go back to it, and it made for good discussions.
So this is this is pretty awesome, excellent, ex true. What about you?
The director of the Graduate made a werewolf movie starring Jack Torrence and they dig it, you know, like that's that's really the best summary of it. Like, I think that this is a far better movie than and honestly, I think it's more you know, warts and all, like it's it's it's maybe not exactly it's I think it is a more interesting film than the couple of Dracula movie. It might not be quite as as good in the traditional sense, but the weirdness of this movie makes it
more appealing to me. I think like it and I I I like that. I don't it's it's it's kind of hard to nail that down, but like it's it's like this much a list talent to make a were wolf movie is like, I don't even think we've seen anything like that since the nineties, Like they just don't really. I guess the closest thing would be, you know, the Tom Cruise Mummy movie from a couple of years ago, but that was still pretty schlocky, Like this is played really straight and that's yes.
Well, and it looks like a like a like an a studio, you know, it looks it has the lighting and color and verve of like a rom com of this era.
You know, it's either way a couple of years ago. I'm sorry to tell you. Drew is twenty seventeen, so.
So nearly ten.
In other words, yeah, well, well I am I am aging like this movie like a fine, I just skip better with.
Age and I went through I was going through all the you know, imagine this movie with this cast and this whatever. Also, they had Stanley Kubrick to director. We're talking about like the director of the Graduates, Like, imagine the director of the Shining.
Been very different.
It would have been quite differents.
It probably still would have been cool though.
Like it'd be cool. Yeah, but boy, that's yet another thing that would have just overwhelmed this movie. If if you had Kubrick doing his Kubrick thing like this, this would have it would have been a much moodier piece for sure, but boy, I don't.
Know, also would have been a lot more psychedelic.
Oh yeah, yeah, you know, I can just imagine the tone.
Pod.
Let's get our endorsements. Uh, Julia, we're starting with you. What do you have to share with us that you've been watching, listening to whatever? We are at your mercy? What do you got?
I mean, still working record. Severn's season finale was incredible, loved it so much. And I'm having a good time watching Daredevil. I think I think I have anything new. That's pretty much.
I love the way you you said I'm having a good time watching Daredevil, but you said it like there was a question mark.
No, it's like I think that's all. I think that's all I got. But yes, No, Dared Devil's fun. It's it's a it's a good relaunching of the character. The same the same, same, same cast, same basically the same story. I am amused that Charlie Cox seems to have forgotten how to do an American accent.
That is really funny.
I don't know why it felt like in the previous series he seemed to have a much better American accent. But whatever, But I still it's a blast and he's great for its great.
It's fun.
Hashtag justice for Foggy.
Yeah, yeah, you know he may but we'll see about that.
Yeah, apparently in the comics he comes back from the dead, so you never know, Tony, what do you got?
I'll see I have been really we want we finish up the Residents, a murder mystery in the White House on Netflix. I believe it is. So that was really cool and I thought of you guys, like, I think you're gonna really dig it up. I enjoyed that a lot. On the music side more, you know, I've been endorsing people I know making cool albums. I think I mentioned their single, but my friends in the band frog Mouth
just released their album and it is super cool. I really, I you know, they're it's not just that they're good friends, it's you know, good tunes too. Write like, I wouldn't endorse them if if I didn't believe in it. Uh so there Their album is called Identity Thief, and uh they're really cool people, really good. I've known them from from bands before this, but I really you can get it on band camp, Jason City link, you know, you can link to it. But I just like, I like
promoting cool people who are doing awesome music. Like I think, I just even not like creating art and putting stuff out there helps I'm not maybe I'm not as naive as I think. You know, Oh, music just changes the world, but I think in sometimes sometimes it can, or it can change your surroundings for the time you're listening to
that album or those you know, those tunes. It's such a big part of my life in general that you know, I think that I believe in it, and especially you know, putting out new music, just like any art, any you know, putting out a novel, putting out a movie. All of that's tough. It's tough to keep going. Stuff to do you say, yeah, frog Mouth, identity, thief, good tunes, good people.
And then for games, I'm actually playing this game, sad Land, which is based on manga Toriama manga, and it's a post apocalyptic to drive cool tanks and bikes and stuff like that and in across the Desert monsters. It's classic j RPG stuff. But I chose it because I had a bunch of games that were kind of darker and then I was like, you know what, I got sand Land on sale and it's definitely worth super worth it on sale. But I've been really that's been my kind
of salve that night. I haven't watched as many movies because I've been, you know, roam across the desert on bikes and tanks and that's honestly, you get mechs and uh you know, if you liked Dragon Quest and you like Dragon ball Z, well same art style and I
think they did. And oh and you're the Son of the Devil, like literally your dad is uper and you know the main characters feels above a moody demon team in a world of humans in a post apocalyptic post apocalyptic desert land, So like, how how cool is that?
It?
May I do need to read the manga now, like I haven't. I just haven't picked it up. But you know, I have a long list of stuff I need to buy. So that that's been my That's been a lot of my nights when I'm not I'm also catching you know, I'm catching Daredevil and and uh Reacher and and all of that. But but definitely Uh, those are my my things.
Like and Jason Jullie, I think when you when you catch the Residents, I hope you agree with me because I think it's okay, it's it's firmly in the stuff we would all talk about, and.
I appreciate that. Yeah. Adolescence, by the way, also was killer just to throw out Netflix series from last week. Oh yeah, that's right. Okay, all right, thank you very much, Drew. What about you?
I have two endorsements in both dinosaur related because so we're going, yeah, well we're going from one of my one of my fixations to another one of them. That's just how things work sometimes. So it's kind of a repeat endorsement. But it's another Haunted Objects podcast. But it's a two part episode they did on the McCaulay Mimbay, which is a alleged Brontosaurus type cryptid that lives in the African Congo.
Uh.
Some people might remember that Disney made a pretty schlocky movie about it called Baby in the eighties. But it's it's it's a fairly well known bit of of cryptozoology. But they they spend two episodes on it. You know, they go into some actual science, some pseudoscience. They they delve into the weird world war weird, weird, weird world of Young Earth creationism and how they have co opted
this this mythological creature for their own nefarious purposes. And it's just an interesting dissection of this particular piece of folklore. And uh, you know, so I it's it's been my favorite episode that they've done so so far.
But it's a code of the episode.
It's the Haunted Object podcast, but the episode it's too a two parter that's on McCaulay Membe and I'll send I'll send a link to the episodes. But man, you know, although I do kind of wish that I could have this is me being the the that guy, which I'll talk more about in a second, that I do kind of wish that I could have consulted them on some of their dinosaur facts in the episode, because there's they're not paleontologists, so and I mean neither are my, but
you know, I'm an enthusiastic amateur. But there's there's some things I wish I could have said. You know, I'm actually but uh still really really fun. My second dinosaur related endorsement is actually for fourth Sundays at the University of Texas Museum of Science and History because they have a lot of awesome dinosaur fossil fossils, but also megafauna fossils for things like saber toothed cats and mammoths. But you know, they have a quits aquatilis, which is you know,
quite unique. If you want to see how big the biggest thing that ever flew was, you can you can see that they have a tyrannosaur skull. They have a brontosaurus skull. Jamie, my my charming wife who sometimes guests guests on the podcast, was the one that thought that this would be a great family fun day and she was right. I was just giddy and dancing around, and you know, my my our baby Luna was like vibing off of how giddy I was and was just super
smiley most of the time. There was only a few times where Jamie had the stop stop me from correcting the tour guy, which I'm ashamed to say happened more than once. But you know, I I am who I am, and that's all that I am, which is a massive which a massive dork but dinas plainer, Yes, that's it. I'm dinas plainer. Where where werewolf guy? Where wolf Guy? Dinos plainer? Uh?
You know, are you a dinas by day and a were wolf by night?
Yes, yes, I'm gonna. I'm gonna have new business cards printed up dos that. But uh man, it's it's free every fourth Sunday and for for you know, fun for the whole family or fun for the you know, people who are childless and simply science enthusiasts of science. So you know, I would I would suggest, uh, you know, if you're in the Austin area, check and wonderful.
Thank you very much. All right, So I watched two movies over the weekend. While I was working on stuff, was playing movies on the screen. I watched two movies that were entirely conversations, and those were My Dinner with Andrea and Full Body Massage, which sounds like a sexy movie, but it was a Nicholas Rogue movie where it's But both of these movies were basically films. They're ninety minutes long or two hours long or whatever it is with
two actors just having a conversation. One of them is Brian Brown and Mimi Rodgers, and he's a massaur and she's the client and they just spend ninety minutes talking about whatever about about men and women in relationships and whatever. And then My Dinner with Andrea is two gentlemen who are having dinner and just talking about, you know, about
art and life and stuff. And I was just I was just so floored that you could make a movie that where where the whole thing is just two people talking and we and the audience are sitting and watching it.
Uh.
The other one that I wanted to so that was My Dinner with Andrea in full body Massage. You should watch those back to back. That was really really fun. And also Tony's wife, who is a writer named Rain Knox, she did this hilarious comedy musical a few years ago, well maybe it was, maybe it's more recent than that, And all I remember it was about the Office.
It started, It started during the pandemic and just took longer to make it pass correctly.
So I would love to get a new link to it because one of the songs is called Robert California is the Worst, and it's about the character from the Office and how he's the worst. It was great. I love it so much. Yeah, and he was played by James Spider, which is how I all this stuff back together. So so look for that. And Tony, you had something else that you wanted to bring up.
Oh yeah, well hey I remember specifically, Like, it's funny you mentioned my dinner with Andre that's always as a kid watching Ciscal and Ebert, Yes, Like, I couldn't fathom how you could possibly want to watch something like that because I was a kid, and there's monster movies and there's there like everything like that looks like the worst, most boring thing ever to it. Yeah, someone who's young, right, Like,
how how could that be fascinating? The answer is because you're not an adult and you probably, like I'm sure there are some kids maybe that age you were, you know, just would get it, but in general, like it just seemed like the antithesis of any movie. To see them gush over it was like, ah, that sounds like the worst, which is funny, but my actual one I forgot.
Uh.
I got a press release that reminded me that The Rule of Ginny Penn, starring John Lethgow and Jeffrey Rush is coming to Shudder on Friday, and I saw it a fantastic fest I think I talked a little about it, but oh man, there's so much just anxiety. It scared me because the guy's just oh there's just some evil. I mean, it's so harrowing, but also being older, the idea of being forced into a senior home and there's a horror there that they play on as well as
this megalo maniac like thing that's happening. It is a harrowing movie. But I do like if that sounds like and oh they're sore. Everybody in that is so good. But it is fascinating, horrific, depressing and awesome. I don't know again, I don't know if it's for everybody, but like it was, it's one of the movies that's stuck with me at Fantastic Fest and I always you know, when that happens, you know, long after the fest, I
want to, you know, reach out. But but it's it was in theaters and then March twenty eight, it's coming to shutter. So if you want to watch John Letgal terrorize people by speaking through a puppet, there you go. It's it's something.
Oh oh, if John let goes on Smart List this week or last week of you a bit whatever, the originally and.
You said his personality kind of surprised.
You, right, Well, so that in surprised me. It's just too so sweet, such a nice guy. I was like, oh my gosh, I love John.
Well he's playing against that here. Yeah, it's oh, it's like I said, it's terrifying but affecting. And so I think, you know, a decent amount of our listeners probably want to check that out. It's good, but boy did it make me think about all the A lot of things I probably didn't want to think about, in addition to going, oh man, that's that's a horrific thing that's happening.
On that note, and thank you very much. That was that was cool. Wow. So we got to discuss Wolf nineteen ninety four, kind of bringing to an end this time around so journeying through the world of werewolves. I'm sure that we will be back, but what a what a fun episode. And thank you everybody for your patience and for your kindness to one another. And sometimes these trying times come to the Facebook page. Let us know what you're thinking. We'll probably take a week off. We
may be back right after that. We might take a couple of weeks off depending on some travel, but we will be back. So let us know what you're thinking of something, if there's something that you want to hear. So everybody be kind to one another and we will talk to you soon. Not all