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This is Robert Ross with another episode of cars that matter. I'm here today with Pete. Heaven. Greetings. I'm glad you could join us.
Hello Pete is the author of Nissan's Z. Fifty years of exhilarating performance. It was just published this year by motor Books an imprint of cuarto press. I'm here to tell you I have the book in hand and among all of the recent automotive publications this one really stands apart. Congratulations on a great project.
Pete thank you very much I really appreciate that. It was a labor of love. I put it together fairly quickly because it was something that Nissan jumped on board at a last minute decision. It was interesting. They really did make a big deal out of the 25th anniversary and I don't know why but it didn't really occur to them to do much about the fiftieth anniversary. Then all of a sudden somebody internally said we really have to.
And that was Hiroshi Tamura. They got in touch with their licensing agency which is EMI and EMI contact and motor books and motor books contacted me because I had written an earlier version of thirty fifth anniversary. And so we put this book together really in a little less than a year.
I noticed the foreword is by Hiroshi tomorrow. Obviously he had a hand in recognizing that 50 years of Zen is as you call it. Pete you've got kind of an interesting career. Obviously your Zen aficionado but you're also a professor in the Department of Communications at Cal State Fullerton.
Probably as we talk about your book and about the history of the Zen cars we'll maybe get into a little bit of the market speak that would along with essentially introducing a Holden car and a whole new concept to a whole new audience that is the North American audience for whom a sports car from Japan was a brand new unthinkable concept back in 1970. I know this isn't your first Zipcar rodeo either because you published Zee
35 years of Nissan sports car in 2005. It's hard to imagine that the nameplate is as old as it is and for its thirty fifth anniversary there were some pretty exciting things happening too. But I guess really to start at the beginning let's go back and look at the Zee legacy from the start. You and I are old enough to remember that back in the 60s and
early 70s Japanese cars were by and large disregarded. I'm being charitable I'd say a joke in some ways but they were no joke because of course Honda and Toyota essentially took over their respective markets and Dotson did the same. But really the only sports car we had back in the 60s was the Toyota 2000 and that was such a rare and esoteric piece of work that it almost doesn't count.
Nissan did try. They had a sixteen hundred little sports car was a little convertible. It started as a sixteen hundred. They called it the fair Lady in Japan of course. And then they brought it over here to the US and then it became a slightly larger motor and they had it with the two leaders they called it the two thousand I remember that two thousand well a friend of mine had a canary yellow one.
And I thought it was an amazing thing it was right up there with any of G.B. except that it was more reliable and a great little competitive car.
And Peter Brock raised it so did Bob Sharp on the east coast and so that kind of really established a footprint if you will for Nissan at least from the motor sports standpoint and it gave them some credibility and it really provided the power I guess internally to look at a genuine sports car a hard top version and you can always thank Mr. Kay.
You talk a kind of Yama who pushed that car the Z initially and he was here in America as the president of Nissan USA and he went back to Japan and said we really have to have a sports car that is affordable and is something that everyone can afford here in the United States. And so he basically brought the idea of democratizing a sports car. You mentioned
the Toyota 2000 GTA. It was an incredible car. But it didn't really have the legs to expand they didn't really bring it over here in significant quantities and it was a very expensive car as opposed to a little roadster is a rumor.
But Bob Bonner and use the little 2 thousands for his driving school. They were so good and reliable and relatively inexpensive that Toyota was essentially unaffordable. And it was fragile and even though it did a little bit of racing there just wasn't enough critical mass to really make it stick.
Nissan really wanted to be the first to come in there. Honda was here but they made really small throwaway cars to begin with.
Let's call them shoeboxes I think the only thing smaller was that Subaru 360 that looked like an egg with Finnish oils and Nissan was ahead of their time of course they were called Datsun them but they came out with their 240 Zi and late 69. But they also had a pickup truck. And so those were two key markets that they used to go after slightly different audiences but that's how they penetrated the U.S. market at least initially.
So many times a great nameplate like the 240 Zi comes about because of the vision of a single person or a tight team and you talk about you talk a cutie Sharma or Mr. Kay Cottee Amazon was obviously an interesting guy and he must have been doing something right. So he lived to be one hundred five years old. That's a remarkable thing in and of itself. You speak
very fondly of him in your book. Can you give us a little insight into what it took to get his own corporate colleagues and superiors to buy as crazy an idea as a sports car for America.
I think he was just a force. He just had such an incredible passion I had the pleasure of meeting with him several times and interviewed him not only for my previous book but also speaking to him and several of the Z cons and car shows. I mean he was very passionate love people as they said in his slogan Love life love people you couldn't not like him
I hate double negative. But the fact is is that I believe that his passion and his persuasive skills were partially enough to demonstrate that he could sell this car in United States. And I think that's what it took to convince his contemporaries his colleagues in Japan that if he could have the opportunity to bring the Z here in America he would show them that that was the right car at the right time and he would be
successful with it. And they believed him. They were a little skeptical his colleagues in Japan but they obviously invested in the car and said OK now it's up to you and your colleagues to make sure that this happens and it did.
Pete you're a marketing man so let's clear up the name change. Now again today we call it a rebranding but to me Nissan is always going to be dots.
Can you explain how the name change came about by Nissan was always the corporate name always has been. Dotson has a history of its own was used originally in Japan and then eventually through mergers and acquisitions. Other companies the corporation became Nissan and that was the name that they utilized at least internationally Nissan wanted to brand their name Nissan around the world. They wanted to have one name one brand and that makes total sense.
Why would you have three or four different brands around the world. So at some point in the late 70s early 80s they said OK we need to brand our companies name particularly in North America as Nissan. First it was Nissan by Datsun and then it was dotted by Nissan. Eventually the nameplate just became Nissan and Nissan assumed all the cost of replacing all the sage at the dealerships
back to the business cards. I mean they invested many millions of dollars to do this a lot of dealers of course were very unhappy about this but for any sign it was important to have one name one symbol one identity. And from a marketing standpoint that make total sense.
Funnily enough peop it's always going to be Dotson to me in the same way that till the day that died my dad called me Bobby and there's just no way around it. You grow up with a name and that's what it's going to be. So for me and you it's a Datsun to 40 see that car really change the game entirely both in terms of looks and power versus price launched here I guess in the U.S. and 1970 is that right. That's right. Plenty interesting things
were happening back then. Ferrari Daytona was fresh on the ground Porsche 911 was just making its way in motorsport and in the public consciousness. And here we get the Datsun 240 Z. All of a sudden coming in at a fraction of the price of any of those what was about thirty five hundred bucks at the time a less than thirty five hundred dollars.
I mean it was a wonderful time if you were a automotive enthusiast and I was a teenager at the time and it was just incredible for me to see all the cars out there I kept dragging my dad to dealerships Dad. We got to see this car in this car. I'd spent a lot of my childhood living overseas. My dad worked for the U.S. government and we had just come back believe it or not from Iran. And so we were in showrooms and looking at stuff. He bought a Pinto. Come on.
I mean seriously pent up well you know at the time the Pinto or the Vega probably seemed like the right thing to do. But the two Ford easy was definitely a cut above Oh yeah it's looks obviously really defined as being a car that was something special it really looked like a European sports car. Whether you think of a Jaggi type or a Ferrari 275 it had all the proportions down. Who was the designer. Can you talk about the design of that automobile.
You could start with you talk a cutie I'm a Mr. K.. The other gentleman that you always have to say is so you see Collazo. He was the vice president on the East Coast. He was also very responsible for selling the cars on the East Coast. Takashi Ishihara was also involved with respect to selling the cars. Those gentlemen were really necessary for being instrumental in making sure that this car was brought to America. But with respect to the
designers the two designers started in early 1965. Their names were Yoshiko Matsuo and his boss was teaching Hara. And those two gentlemen were basically responsible for the design they oversaw most of the development of passenger cars and trucks and vans. What was then Nissan in Japan. Mr. Matsuo really is credited with the design of the cars weren't just beautiful.
They actually had a really great engine and it was an inline six that served them well in competition too. Can you talk about the race history of those cars early on the Ari was racing on the West Coast.
They first ran the fairly lady the sixteen hundred and the 2000 the Roadster Brock and Katayama developed a very close relationship. Cody amo was a huge race and King goes many West Coast races as he could and so with driver John Morton who actually wrote the introduction to my first book. Both of those gentlemen. They formed a partnership between driver and owner that was just cemented together.
They went and tore up the SPCA and scored countless victories and championships and really added an element of credibility to the car to show. Not only was it a great performer but a bullet proof engine that straight sex was a powerful motor and really was chewing up the competition on the racetrack. And that really translated to a lot of advertising showing that that was the same motor that you could purchase in the showroom on the East Coast.
Bob Sharpe with Bob Sharp racing. He was racing himself first and then we started adding drivers like Paul Newman. Paul Newman never went by his name Paul Newman on the race card generally was Paul Newman. I had the pleasure of meeting him several times when he ran the Trans Am in the 1980s I worked for SPCA pro
racing at the time based out of Denver Colorado. And one of my responsibilities was the trans am and Newman ran that horse racing effort of course was first class all the way big tractor trailer with Newman sharp racing and he'd roll out those turbo 300 Zee Xs and everybody was just always in Newman. He took his racing
very seriously and those cars were incredible. Newman won a race his only pro race at his home track which was Lime Rock Park and you couldn't shut the man up normally he was very quiet kept a very low profile.
The racetrack but that particular day when he won he was just itching to tell everybody his life story and everything about racing. How important it was but the credibility that he added as a racer that Bob Sharpe added both in the average ranks and then in the pro ranks and they brought in a lot of sponsorship Budweiser Coca-Cola Planters Peanuts that helped with advertising and helped exposure level for Nissan but that trickled down and then a
lot of other competitors started running. Dotson do for disease to 60s to 80s through hundreds in all levels of racing Nissan's motorsports department I ended up working for them in the 90s first under Kastner who ran the program. He had worked with TR six years and really got involved with Nissan and then Frank consulates took over when Carson retired and Frank ran that department for twenty seven years.
So motorsports was really instrumental and a big part of Nissan's legacy and in helping sell a lot of vehicles.
It certainly was an enduring design because the 240 C lasted 73 73. It was quickly supplanted by a slightly larger displacement version called the 260 which only lasted for a year right. That's correct. And then onto the 280.
There's some debate as to why the 260 was only one year. It really seems to be one that they kept in there just as a shoehorn before they went to the two 80 which was a larger displacement a little bit more refined. They also had to adhere to more emissions control so there were some decisions made in
Japan to put a 260 in there. And again back to marketing I think that they designed that car or released that car with a different model number simply to create demand or the fact that hey this is a new car. It could be of interest to you but we're working very earnestly towards it 2 8 but the three hundred six that was a whole different car there was a previous three energy X which was still kind of shaped like the original to Ford that came out
in the mid to late 80s. So that 306. It had slightly hidden headlights but when the new three energy X came out they kept the same nameplate which I thought that was kind of strange. They might have changed the nameplate because the car was completely changed such a sweeping difference to the look.
I remember when that launched my buddy bought one in 1990 I bought a new Corera at the time and he bought a new Z X between the two cars we trade them off and I thought that 306 was really one hell of a car and an exquisite shape that actually as a design holds up today impeccably. That car is as refined to look now as it was when it was first introduced 30 years ago. Help us put it into context Pete Renault and Nissan started to
get together. I guess there's a real close relationship between the French and the Japanese companies that allowed both of them to sort of join ranks and create a stronger brand for both companies right.
I worked at least on at the time and Nissan was kind of going through kind of a downward spiral and I don't mean that in a negative way it was just that they were having some financial difficulties some problems. The frontier was the replacement truck for the old hard body. It did not take off as well as they had hoped.
Keep in mind that the Zee had been discontinued. I was actually running the Z store for Nissan at the time the Zi store of course was the program where we were restoring original to 40 seats and I was running it kind of on a shoestring but bless Nissan they were at least funding that. But there wasn't a lot of marketing money because budgets were being cut. So
my son was looking for a partner. And along came Renault and this was about 1998 when it happened and we got a message on everybody's desk when we came to work one day that said Nissan is going to partner with Renault we have a new automotive family and that's really when things got a little different. It didn't really affect any of us in terms of our positions
but it was the partnership that they needed. Quite honestly the cash infusion that they needed maybe the stability that they needed but it really kept Nissan on the playing field if you will.
That's an interesting history and proof that so many OEMs major brands really need to partner and have strength in numbers that allow them to really become families of cars as opposed to individual brands.
Look at Volkswagen Group and the fact that they own everybody from Skoda to the gods. And similarly other affiliations that have made all of the products stronger by virtue of that. I agree we're going to take a quick break but we'll be right back Welcome to life.
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We're back with Keith. Keith let's switch topics a little. I think it'll be impossible to talk about the Zee without talking about the GDR.
Coincidentally I guess both cars are 50 years old in 2020 and both of those are managed by Hiroshi Tamura the gentleman we talked about at the beginning of our podcast tomorrow sun is kind of Mr. GDR and Mr. Zheng He is the caretaker if you will of both cars. His goal is to make sure that each one of those has a future long after he has retired from
the company. Godzilla as we all refer to the GDR is a remarkable vehicle in terms of power in terms of its awesomeness and certainly it is the halo brand of Nissan. Whereas the Zee is the face of Nissan the GDR is this way up here Halo aspirational vehicle.
It's an amazing car. I think I drove my first GTA in 2007 right when they came out and I've driven them successively and then every model upgrade and it's a car that has a distinct personality. Godzilla certainly one of them but it can also be a fairly tame Dr. Jekyll and not always a Mr. Hyde. I mean the car is actually a car you can drive at a remarkable achievement in terms of performance and all of that relative to its price which while not inexpensive is at
least within the realm of consideration for mere mortals. The Zipcar of course much more so in recent years it's changed its look and its feel. I see recent. Really I'm thinking all the way back to 2002 which I guess doesn't make it that recent at all but that's when the 350 CE came out and that was a whole new look catapulted the Zee into the 21st century. How did that car take off and how successful was that.
Do you remember the movie with Kevin Costner. Field of Dreams. There was this saying that if he builds it they will come here one day on our desks. When we came to work and this was always a big thing at any side is that there was always some kind of symbolism tied to a big announcement so on our desk in the morning was a baseball and the baseball said we will build it. And that was a sign that the new Z was kind of. And that was in 2000 when it finally showed up in 2002.
The three goals that were inherent in building the doozy was that it would be powerful it would be unique and it would be affordable. One of the factors that led to the demise of the 300 X back in 1996 was that it had become unaffordable. It was a costly car sales and trickled down quite a bit. The New Jersey in 2002 had been calculated had been price had been built with a sales price or an MSR P that was within the realm of a new audience
that really could afford it. And it was designed with enough power that it would be able to compete with whatever it was on the market at that time. It was a 911 tape bill but it was a great car with a very distinctive look. It was lighter shorter smaller. Those are the characteristics that we were trying to achieve. So it was built it was ready. It was launched and it was with great fanfare that the car came out and that car soldiered on for quite a while I guess.
What 2009 it got replaced with the 370 DC and that's essentially the nameplate that we have today.
The idea was to launch the car in 2002 with a new name but keep the same soul. And then that car lasted until 2009 when the 370 new name came out with more horsepower slightly modified in terms of the look but still retaining kind of the same stance the same silhouette but with new modifications new upgrades new technology.
Well the fiftieth anniversary edition of the 370 Zee I guess is the cap on a half century of success for that model. But I know there's one call the new smo and that's been a name that's been attached to some of the super high performance names songs for a while.
Can you explain to us what these mo means Miss Mo stands for Nissan motorsports. It's their high performance brand. It's their high performance parts division. They make a lot of money obviously selling high performance parts. So Nimmo itself the car is a compilation of their high performance parts integrated if you will into a special car.
They look pretty remarkable I guess if you want to check all the boxes you order yourself a 3 7 Daisy Nesmith and you've got the fiftieth anniversary edition that is going to be quite collectible going forward. Speaking of going forward what do you think Tim Morrison envisions for the future of the Zee nameplate.
I spoke to him just a couple of days ago actually. He's very excited about the Z promo as they call it. It's going to take probably another two years before the car actually sees the showroom. Obviously the sooner the better. His goal is to have the car come out with
a twin turbo 60 manual which will be wonderful. What are the only manuals left in the world by then it will come with an automatic as well it's an option but it's got so many components that bring a full circle between both the 240 and and then Alphonso the also who is the head of design. His first he was the 300 g x and it had such an impact on him that he wanted to incorporate a
lot of the impact of that car. So that's why you see the tail lights from the 306 in the new Z prototype the hood and the edges of the car. It has a katana blade which goes back to the heritage of the Samurai soldier. But the thing that I always feel is so critical is that the three dials on the dash. And that's something that they have maintained all along. And to me that represents a big part of the heritage of 246.
Well we'll talk about the future of the nameplate. That sounds like it's position for another 50 years if we're all driving by then. But let's look back on some of the older cars again and talk about the collector market. I know you were involved in the vintage Z project in Japanese cars across the board not just Dodson's Nissans Toyota's Hondas monsters. They're all very very collectible now those
cars from the early era. They've really kind of taken off among younger collectors and maybe some older guys to it among these cars the 240 see is probably one of the linchpins of any Japanese car collection. Talk about some of the models the most desirable ones special additions. Can you explain what fair lady really is and covered the headlights versus the uncovered headlights and all the stuff that we see that I always wonder about.
Fair Lady The name came from the fact that my fair lady was a great theatrical performance. It was a play and the president of Nissan in Japan at the time. Loved the play and he wanted to use that name for his upcoming line of cars. That's how it started.
And instead of saying My Fair Lady they just used fairly always and that's something obviously they had to get the rights to use the name but that's how the car at least the sports car and it goes back in 1960 where they first started applying that to their original rag top although Mr. K. said that isn't going to work the United States. It's just not masculine enough for the American consumer. So he fought long and hard for the name 240 Z which was obviously reflective of
the displacement of the. And then you mentioned covered lights versus open scoops. There's also the Geno's which is the covered nose again some of these are rare. Some of these are Japanese only the Geno's was really mostly a Japanese product. There are some that have a little spoiler on the back there some that have spoilers on the front. Most of those came from the parts been from the racing program and you could order some of these accessories.
But honestly the cars started becoming more collectible in the last five to seven years up to that point disease really weren't generating a whole lot of return. Other Japanese cars were more desirable. You mentioned the two thousand GTD the Toyota that cars skyrocketed probably in some respect because they featured in the James Bond movie all cars that feature in James Bond movies for whatever reason seem to have a certain value ascribed to them except my Z3
and the lotus. But that car seemed to have a certain value. Other cars that have really mushroomed in the last few years the supra the original. What is it land cruiser. That car has really increased in value. Those are the cars that I would see have value. But really all of a sudden the Zipcar and I'm proud to say the ones that we made a Disney star. These are now called the restoration zis have really increased
in value because we only need 38 of them. And so they're all basically hand built Piers Z made a number of them here and author Mark Jones made a bunch of them in Signal Hill dot Sonali and we had two other less Kennedy made one or two and a couple of folks old car design made too. These cars were all hand built. We took all of these.
I bought all of them all 240 zis locally paid two thousand three thousand for them and then we restored them all on a rotisserie all new body completely down to the metal dipped to some extent that we could we bought a new wiring I mean we did a complete restoration.
I remember when that program came out I was really impressed that a manufacturer would actually undertake such a heartfelt project under their own wing and that they regarded their history as being so significant that they wanted to get these cars back to perfect condition and back on the road.
You know Robert it was heartfelt but was also again a marketing decision. Keep in mind that the 306 had just been discontinued in 1996. We did the Z program for two reasons one. We keep the name Zee fresh in people's minds because we anticipated at some point that we would have a new Z. We didn't know when. So the idea was to keep the Z in the minds of people and we had an accompanying marketing program with heavy advertising and all the buzz books. We also
did a lot of PR. We built a press car that saw a lot of miles being driven by a lot of journalists. And then the other thing was that we had to protect the trademark. I'll tell you right now that a certain manufacturer that makes another Z based car tried to pursue the trademark saying that the Z in America was no longer being used therefore they wanted to take control of the Z trademark. So was both
a legal and a marketing decision to do this. It paid off for us in terms of keeping this bridge between the old Z and the new one which we announced obviously in 2000. That four year span was important for Nissan but it was very heartfelt because it was important for all of us to build the car. At one point in the employee parking lot I probably had 50 old uses. Of course they were all exposed and then somebody from H.R. said you need to cover those cars.
So we nicely covered them all up and then eventually we had to move them.
That's funny. Well Pete it sounds like it was a great project. Obviously you focused on two 4-D. So those first four years of production. Is that right. You didn't do later cars.
We actually didn't build Sony 73 years because the 73 I didn't really want to build. That was the first year of their mission changes so I really focused from 70 to 72.
So from 70 71 and 72 that's the car that a collector would want to look for in terms of the emissions and in terms of the purity of the design of the bumpers and all that kind of good stuff.
Those early zis in any UN restored original Z. Anything that Mr. Kay has kind of touched.
Those cars have really escalated in the marketplace now and I suspect that the cars are not going to get any less desirable as time goes on. They are we're going to take a short break but we'll be right back in a moment of your time.
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Welcome back. Cars that matter what's in your garage. You have a zip in your garage.
I don't right now. I've had three in the past. I've had a 240. I was in the publishing business out of grad school and had a company car in which was a 286 Turbo. I lived in Denver Colorado. It snows in Denver an incredible amount and I had to put kitty litter in the back because that car just went nuts in the snow. But that was my company car which was a wonderful car. I also had a 300. I worked for Steve Millen before I worked for Nissan. It was the fact that I work for Millen.
That got me hired by Nissan. We built a tribute car for the 25th anniversary of Nissan Z which we called the SMG and had a different aerodynamic look and big brakes. You know common tires it really was a nice nice car. And I had a z then so I did three I don't have one now but I really would like to get one of the new disease that comes out. What's in my garage right now. I've got a 63 Corvair which is the one that was in a movie called Zodiac but that from the studio
I've got a sixty five grand cherokee just pristine. I've got a 65 Thunderbird special Lando. I have a 66 Mustang convertible and I have a 73 triumph TR 6 and then I have a 2015 Camaro to SS and Audi.
All right boy you've got quite a stable there and there's a lot of great American iron for a fellow who's an expert on Japanese cars. I think you're definitely waving the flag for General Motors and a little bit of Ford here and there. I know that's a nice collection of cars. And of course the Corvette is a bit of an outlier another car that doesn't get all the respect that's due for being such a forward thinking design.
Yeah. I love the Corvette. My dad had a Corvette. So my dad loved rearranging cars. Had to Renault dolphins.
Oh good heavens. Well you don't see those on the road anymore.
And then he had a Corvair. So I don't know why you liked rearranging cars but then I ended up buying one too because they are fun to drive.
That's why there's nothing more fun and sometimes surprising than the rear engine car. But when it comes to classic looks and style I think it's hard to beat the two Ford easy especially when you put it in the context of the early 70s and you see what was happening to automotive designs then you can put that car up side by side with any type or any Ferrari from the era. And stylistically it really does hold its own.
I agree. A great testament to a company that took a hell of a chance with a market that had no idea they were coming. Oh I agree. It was a gamble but it really paid off. I want to talk about your book for a minute Pete because your book is really a cut above in the range of automotive books. It's beautifully designed by the way. It's not only well laid out but it's really an attractive design
aesthetic when it comes to the information man. You drill deep for anyone who wants to know literally the nuts and bolts of the car history. Your book has it that really goes deep into the crevices and pulls out all the little goodies that would probably otherwise never be told it's someone who's been involved with Neeson for quite a while I appreciate that.
I love cars. I have always loved cars since I was a kid. And to be able to be in the automotive business for as long as I have been
was just a dream of mine. I started my automotive journey back in 1985 working for SPCA and then I had a stint working for Selene helping him market and selling his Mustangs and then I left after his Indy car program exploded and I went to work for Ford and did some work for them that got me at Bob bond Grant and I worked at his school performance driving in Phoenix right when he moved there and spent three years there then got hired on and Steve Mullens
and that got me into Nissan and after that I worked in the advertising business and then became a teacher. So I've had a very diversified career but writing has been fundamental to all that I teach writing now I teach writing for advertising I teach copywriting I teach marketing but being able to follow my passion has been absolutely critical.
That's a great career arc from SPCA motor sport to advertising really kind of covers the gamut when it comes to cars.
You mentioned the fact that the spiritual guide to all this is you talk about karma. Mr. K we love to be honored five. So you did something right. His signature autograph was always love cars love people love my boy if I could take a little piece of that and apply that to my own life I would be so grateful. I'm so grateful to be able to have written this book and I thank the folks in motor books for giving me this opportunity and the folks at least for letting me put into words the passion that
they have for this car and celebrate it. But that to me is important to a writer and to a person. Like I said it's passion about cars as I am I'm living the dream. Thanks to Peter Kavanagh author of this on Z 50 years of exhilarating experience for joining us today on cars that come back next time as we continue to talk about the passions that drivers and the passions we drive.
This episode of cars that matter was hosted by Robert Ross produced by Chris border headed by Chris Porter sound engineering by Michael Kennedy theme song by Celeste and Eric Dix additional music and sound by Chris Porter. Please like subscribe and share this podcast. I'm Robert Ross. Thanks for listening.
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