Welcome back to another episode of Car Stories with some Kay and Amelia Hartford. It is so great that we both plan to match today.
Oh yeah, Military Day.
Yeah. Song and I are both wearing green pants and a white shirt.
What is your favorite pizza in the world?
Favorite pizza?
Yeah, pizza place?
Oh, pizza place?
Yeah, pizza Yeah. Where do you get like your last pizza, your slice of pizza?
Where would you go if I were to tell you about a pizza place I've had recently, It's Mulberry Pizza, Mulberry Prime or issue my two go Tos? What about you?
Domino's pizza?
You like Dominoes?
I think that's Domina's the best pizza in the world. Really, Yeah, yeah it is.
We'll have to agree to news story. I don't get me wrong. Dominoes is good. But don't think I might just like a.
Little people under to make the power of a franchise the reason. It's good. It's good. That's good, it's good, it's great. It is good. But it's the Big Mac is the best tasting hamburger in the world. Okay, it is. It's served over three billion people probably by now.
I wish I could agree with this.
Yeah, if there was no McDonald's okay, and I put and okay. If there was no McDonald's, no Dominoes and no KFC, and you came over to my house and I put a Domino's pizza in front of.
You, it'd be too much for me.
No no, no, no, okay, and I give you a slice of that.
And I wasn't talking about like too much food. It would just be like what too much? Too much everything, like a cheese pizza, it's like overdone. I like simple, like okay.
If I came over with my house and I put there's no McDonald's and I put a big Mac in front of you, you would say this is the best that it's processed.
It's not real.
It's because you know, and I don't know.
I don't think.
Maybe I'm Jayden, but I know based on recently in Japan, when I went to Starbucks, I got a Machia Late and then I came back to the States and I got a Macho Lte and it tasted completely different and it was so much better in Japan.
That's not my point. It's not my point. There's no there is no But.
I'd much rather go support a mom and Pop play. I could be like the food drink taste better there.
Pop opened a Hamburger spot.
The only one you could convince me on is Taco Bell.
No, that's gross. No, okay, okay, let's have about KFC argument if you came to that in so long. Okay, Well, for the chicken people out there, if I made a KFC original recipe at my house, people would think that is the best chicken ever made.
I feel like I can tell a difference between fresh ingredients versus non fresh, frozen preservative ingredients.
Well, okay, if I made the same recipe with fresh organic chicken from Whole Food or Ariwon, it would be the best chicken.
That's why it would be great because it wouldn't upset my stomach.
Well, that's why there's a KFC because it was the At one time, it was a mom and pop. At one time, McDonald's was a mom and pop.
You can't compare. We're talking about the food today, you can't compare it to what it was.
Man, this is anyway. My vote is Domino's Pizza the best pizza. And you say Mulberry, Okay, I know Mulberry is the best.
I'm just saying that's what I guess.
I can't convince you that Dominoes.
I just feel like I asked myself out of working with so many potential brands.
No you didn't no, no, no, no, no like Dominoes. Yeah, well yeah he a Dominos. I love you guys. Anyway, So, speaking of awesome thing, right, our first guest today is.
Jen Horsey, and I am just constantly impressed with Jen, from being a racing driver, from a journalist to being the first female analyst on ESPN for sports.
She's about giving back and paying forward and creating opportunities for other people's dreams to happen, and she arrives in that and it's pretty amazing.
She doesn't usually take the spotlight, is usually the one helping others behind the scenes, so it's really nice for her to come on and just get to know her on a more public scale.
Yeah, and I hear that she can make some mean pastries.
I want to croissants, Jen, please.
So without further ado, Jen Horsey, So, Jens, thank you for coming.
Yeah, thank you so much for coming today.
Thanks, guys, I'm super happy to be here. I kind of know you from different world, so it was cool to see get the invitation and be able to join your great podcast.
We like to have people on who inspire us, and if someone want to look at your resume, they'd be like, holy crap, this is possible in a lifetime and you did what and you've done how much that I don't even know where to begin. I kind of want people to hear who are listening from you a little bit about yourself and how you got to work today before we kind of dive into everything. How did this all start for you? I don't have like a straight path, you know. When I was a little kid, I didn't
grow up in a car household. I didn't follow racing. I didn't know anything about cars at all. I wanted to be a journalist from a really young age. I was like, I'm just curious about people. I'm curious about what makes people tick, and also recognize that you could go and do a lot of cool stuff.
And I wanted to be in it. I didn't want to be watching things from a distance. I didn't want to be sitting behind a desk. I wanted to be in it. So I was like, Okay, I'm going to be a journalist. So of course I went to theater school because that's practical, and I have a technical theater degree. You do, Yeah, I did lighting design. That was that was my experience.
I'm telling you, she could tell me anything and I can't be surprised.
Wow.
So partly because I knew that would be fun. I love the theater environment. I thought I would meet really interesting people, which I did. Yeah, did you grow up Toronto? So I'm originally from Toronto to school in the East Coast and Halifax at Dalhousie University. And while I was in school, I was like promoting bands on the side and then also being a freelance writer and working in campus radio and my student paper, and I was going to do the experiential path. I'm not super into school,
so I think everyone should go to school. I think degrees are great. It's not my favorite environment. So I thought, Okay, well I'll do the school because I have to get the piece of paper, but I'm going to get a lot of experience. So I went through and did the experiential route to becoming a journalist. Got an internship at Canadian Press, which is Canada's associated press. It's the Why service, which turned into a full time job so my first career,
I was a journalist. So first career, yes, just to date myself completely, my first big story was nine to eleven, so I was a junior reporter. At that time. News is obviously twenty four to seven. The wire in particular, it's sort of like that for everyone now because of the Internet. But again this is like early two thousands. The Internet played a really different role in our lives, and I soon realized I was never seeing my friends and family. I was a junior reporter, so I worked
a lot of nights. I worked a lot of weekends, and I learned quickly that as long as there was something in the slot beside your name on the assignment board, they just skipped and went to the next one, and you could just do whatever you wrote in the slot. If you chose your own destiny and just followed your interest,
you could choose what you wanted to do that day. So, because I was working a lot of evenings and weekends, I used to assign myself on the weekends to things that I thought would be interesting that I didn't have any experience in, and that potentially I could bring my friends and family too, So at least I would see them because I wasn't seeing them. So weekend I assigned myself to a rally. I did not know the difference
between a car rally and a political rally. Like I knew that this was car racing, I knew nothing about it, literally nothing. So I went to the stage rally. It was the Canadian Season Ender Championship to be decided. High stakes, everyone going super fast, and that particular race is called the Rally of the Tall Pines. It's one of North America's most notorious I now know notorious difficult, late night grueling races. I know of people who have injured themselves
pretty seriously just hitting a jump wrong. And it's known as winter roads with summer ditches, which is to say it's the conditions can be very icy, but there's no snow to catch you if you fall off the road,
so it's a pretty gnarly race. I went out. I was standing in the woods and I watched this red Mitsubichi Lance Revolution come careening around a corner flat out sideways, passed inches from me out of forty five degree angle to the road direction, and I was like, wait, that guy's doing that on purpose, Like you can slide a car sideways on purpose and not crash, and I was hooked. I was like, I got to figure out how to do that, Like I wasn't hooked, like I need to
watch this more. I was like, I need to know how to do that, like I wouldn't be able to go sideways on purpose.
So this is where it gets a little bit ridiculous.
We had to go to the banquet afterwards. Sitting at the banquet tit table and there's like twelve people around a table and the table is you know, seven time Canadian rally champion, shop that builds all the best cars, guy that won the race, a couple friends and family, fifty five year old man sitting to my left and his wife. And I did not know there was such a thing as a privateer in racing. I didn't know you could just be in a car race. So I was like, okay, I get all this and looked around
the rest of the table. But like, mister mann beside me, whose name was Keith, how did you get here? And he's like, you know, my wife and I would have been racing for the last four or five years. It's been super fun, really enjoyed it. But I think we're going to sell the car and put the money into the boat. And I was like, huh, well, how much is a race car? How much does that cost? He gave me a number. Turns out it wasn't very big,
and I said, well, I'll buy it. And that's the day I became a race car driver.
Actually, after seeing this car go sideways through the woods, You're like, I love this, I want more. I'm going to buy a car and I'm going to learn how to rally race.
Yeah. So I went from you know, pretty fun in amazing career interviewing. You know, I interviewed Bill Clinton, I talked to Nelson, Mandela Garth Brooks one day, crime and politics and all sorts of things amazing, but also felt like I'd kind of done it. And then I had this opportunity to do this wild thing on the weekends. So I bought a race car and I started racing. So I was a race car driver for a little while.
You actually a lot of talent, Yeah, I as.
You know, I'm terrible. I'm a terrible race car driver. I've also tested to do some stunt driving, and I can kind of do it because I can slid a car sideways like I'm better than a regular sort of civilian driver, but like, no, I'm a terrible car driver. But as it turned out, I also don't have the car sickness gene. So although I was terrible driver, the experience that I got behind the wheel showed me that
I actually could probably be a pretty good navigator. So in stage rally there's a driver and a co driver. The co driver is more a navigational role. No, I do not get car sick and I had some opportunities because I was still working as a journalist, I had some opportunities to do some competition and kind of cover it from inside the cars for features for magazines. I pitched some stories that would be fun and learned that
I actually was a pretty good navigator. So I competed for fun in regionals in the middle of the back of the pack. I wasn't last, but I certainly wasn't going to win, and became a relatively successful co driver. But also I'm kind of scrappy, So I parlayed my media skill into working with the US Rally series, doing online media coverage and helping them with their pr and helping them with their marketing and that's kind of how
I fell into this car world. I did not imagine that I would my life would take that significant and left turn at the banquet of my first race. But that's how I got into cars. And I've been doing car stuff now since the early two thousands and met a lot of fantastic people along the way and heard a lot of great stories along the way, And that's what drew me to it in the first place.
Anyway.
Sure, forty five degree angle sideways to the road amazing, But like what makes everybody tick was what always fascinated me. And I love that I've had the opportunity to be part of this community for so long.
Have you ever been rally racing song? No?
I never raced, been on cars.
But yeah, do you get carsick in cars? No?
It puts me to sleep really.
Oh yeah, would you like to be a co driver because you are biologically equipped to do that?
Wow?
Are you a nervous passenger?
No? If I go to Thank God, I'm all the opposite.
Yeah, most race car drivers are terrible passengers.
I don't passenger well and I will puke. I'd get so nauseous in a car if I'm not the one in control. If I'm in the back seat, especially, i'm done, it's game over.
I always tell people they're like, wow, can you be a co driver? I'm like, okay, Well, when you were a kid, were you the kid lying with your head in the foot well upside down, reading comic books, chewing on really sweet gum, and like smelling all the gas fumes and just kind of feeling fine about all that. If so, then yes you can be a co driver. If you've ever once in your life been carsick, I don't take in airplanes. No, no, you.
Sorry? You get sick an airplane?
Yeah, I have to be in control.
The best sleep something there is when the plane's taking off. As soon as it lifts off, ninety nine percent I pass out.
I usually sleep on planes too. Maybe it's part of the like anti carsickness gene.
Can't do it feels so good. I'm a moment I'm like out, So it's it's I look forward to flying, and I look forward to taking ride alongs with like race car drivers and drifters because it's so relaxing, you know, it's super relaxing.
I can think of some people who would like to have you in their right seat.
For sure, but I'm horrible with directions. I don't think i'd be a good navigator.
It's not really directions, it's a whole language. So yeah, yeah, it's really different. I actually can get lost pretty easily if I'm not paying attention. So navigating does not look to the navigator like a race at all. Navigating looks
like reading a book. The code driver can't necessarily even see over the dashboard because obviously for weight balance, you guys know cars, the code driver is kind of a piece of equipment, and the co driver should be down as far as they can and back as far as they can, so barely seeing over the dashboard is pretty normal. I'm tall enough that I can usually see, but just barely.
And the language of stage rally is the turns are coated in numbers, and so it's like a left one would be a hairpin turn, and a left three would be a ninety degree left turn. And it's depending on what system you use. It's a numeric scale from one to six typically, And unlike in desert racing, where it's kind of they're telling you about gotcha's, in stage rally
code driving, they have everything in the book. So it's a constant stream of the co driver just talking, you know, one hundred, which would be like one hundred yards one hundred left four titans and opens right six left six three hundred, Like you're just constantly and so as I'm saying that people who compete in rally, I'm painting a road. The idea is that the driver can drive ahead of
their eyes. It can be safer because if I say left three over crest, that's a ninety degree turn over the top of that hill that you can't see over, so you should probably have the wheelcock to the left before you get to the top of that hill. If on the other hand, I say flat overcrest, pin it and go straight, like get as much air as you can.
So yeah, but as I say, it's so fun.
It is pretty fun. And I got to ride in really fast race cars doing amazing things for a number of years. It was it was really fun. And when it's working and you have a good vibe with the driver, it's you're like.
Sharing a brain.
So it's very cool. Like you feel like as a co driver, I have a really clear mental image in my head of the road that we're on, and I'm my eyes are flickering up a little bit, and I'm looking at the tree line to see if it's bending the way that I expect it to be bending. Very occasionally and mostly kind of doing the uh girometer that's in in my body and understanding where I am on the on the course. And it is amazing fun and when it clicks it it really is like you're one person.
It's very cool and you're one with the car.
What characteristics makes a great symbiotic co driving and driving relationship?
Well, I heard the act of being a co driver is described once as doing calculus in a hurricane. If you feel like you can figure that out, that's your You're in a good position. Boats that's another one. Can't do it.
Definitely not me. I'm opposite of the stereotype my co driver. No, I cannot do math.
We don't actually have to do that focus and.
Even that I have like add so and I'll fall asleep on it.
We will die, we will die.
Were you the first ever female to report on ESPN in in that space?
Yeah, In the end, I started out as a researcher. Again, I just follow my heart right, so I would be sitting in the booth. So if you think about how a motorsport show works, usually there's like a play by play person and then there's an analyst person, and the analyst person is typically an ex competitor and the play by play person. That's like a whole skill set of being able to call the action. At X games. Because the sport was so new, there wasn't an analyst person.
There wasn't an experienced person, so they brought in and a number of people who know a lot about racing, but not a lot about that particular sport because it was kind of a niche sport at the time, And so I was assisting them and I would sort of be handing from like when they weren't on camera, I'd be handing them like note cards with like you should say this now, this is what's happening with that car. That cars debeated attire, like whatever. It is. A couple
years in, I took you oute to compete. We front flipped very spectacularly. We were highlight reel footage for a really long time. Then I was brought back as an in car reporter, so it was head to head racing.
They didn't really need co drivers, so they hired two co drivers to effectively co drive the audience, so we were miked live to air as reporters in the race cars as they raced head to head, and then eventually they asked me to sit in the booth as an analyst, so as an ex competitor most knowledgeable about the sport to provide context. And I believe I was the first female motorsport analyst, so I like predate Danica Patrick by a little while the role that she plays on the
Indie Car prodcast. I am much more comfortable behind the scenes supporting people than I am being in the spotlight. So I challenged myself to do that TV for a number of years, but it's not a natural place for me.
Have you always been such an unmotivated person?
And I say that jokingly, you know, I think if you're I think if you're chasing the thing that interests you, and I tend to be like singularly passionate about a thing. I think that you're motivated because it sort of becomes your raison d'etre, for better or for worse. What actually inspires me every day is that there are people who are really good at the thing that they do as race car drivers, as builders, as you know, key figures in the community. They're really good at that. That does
not mean they're good at marketing. That doesn't mean they're good at communications. It doesn't mean that they have the time or the inclination or the interest in doing it. And what I love to see is those people who are incredibly good at a thing have the chance to do it. So what inspires me is giving those people the funding, the time, the space to really shine and
show what they're capable of. And so that's what motivates me, Like, and how do you How are you not an ambitious, motivated person when you get an opportunity to support amazing things happening in the world.
That's beautiful. That's beautiful that it's so selfless, you know. And then it's amazing that you know, most of the time we see the people in front of the camera, but it takes people like you to fan the flames as well.
You know, even with all the skill sets in the world, if you have a thing that you're really passionate about, like why waste your time on other stuff?
Right?
Like stuff is great at marketing, he can do all kinds of things, but wouldn't be great if you just had hours in the day to work in the shop, Like how amazing is that? How much better is that output? How much more satisfying is that for him? How much better are all our days?
You know?
And so yeah, exactly being part of it and supporting it and watching sort of genius come to fruition, that's really satisfying.
You know. And Also I was listening to a conversation you had. I think it was an antidote about you teaching somebody how to drive manual, and the first thing you teach them is how to fail, like how to stall right, and when you start from there, then you can build on that. And to me, I was like, wow, that is amazing insight that's just so smart, and it's like so insightful, and it's something that I would have never came up with. And it's this like natural ability
to teach, you know. And I wonder, like, where do you get that from?
That is a question I don't know the answer to. I mean, I've always been an observer, right, I wanted to be a journalist. I wanted to observe and see things and translate them into I think capture the moment, capture the essence of the thing, communicate those things out. So am I a teacher or my communicator? Maybe I'm a communicator. It may be about storytelling around around the thing,
and certainly with teaching somebody to drive stick. Yeah, absolutely, you should stall a car, like, don't be afraid of that, or you're never going to learn. So you do. You do have to learn how to overcome failure, and it's a pretty small failure, I think, especially, and this is maybe a little bit about having been an outsider to the automotive world when I joined it. I learned to drive stick in my twenties. I didn't Again, I didn't grow up in car culture, so as a young woman at the time.
I was afraid of a lot of stuff of cars.
And the first time I was sitting with a race car driver in the right seat showing me how to drive, He's like, so you've seen in the movies every time you hit a curb the car flips over six times and burst into flame. You know that's not actually what happens. We're going to crash today and it's going to be okay. It's like, okay, that's cool. And I think, especially with young women, especially the way young women are conditioned to really succeed. I think there are some differences in the
socialization with young boys and young women. I think girls the way that we play as children and we collaborate together, and also the way that we perform in school. I think Mormans were really expected to be perfect. I think there's a perfectionist tendency that girls are socialized around that
is less prevalent among boys. I think boys the definition of success for young boys can be different than academic success or perfection or you know, you're so pretty, you're so smart for girls, right like, I think there's a there's a judgment thing where the boys have a little more flexibility, and so I think that teaches young women, young girls as they become young women, to fear failure a little bit. And with cars especially, it's you're going
to fail. You're not going to learn unless you fail. So when you're at the racetrack, all the guys are like lined up on the fence watching the guys on the track, like fling their cars around before they go out for their session. And for me, it was really interesting to learn how collaborative it was and that there wasn't really a lot of judgment, like they were just watching, they were just participating. And I think as girls, you feel a little bit more pressure to succeed and a
little bit more pressure to be perfect. I don't think there's as much experimentation, and I think you feel like it's judgment even when it isn't.
Yeah, No, I've really like this is like hitting me deep, Like I resonate so much of this, and honestly, I don't feel like I'm so happy that there's so many women that there are today compared to what there were ten years ago. I still don't feel like there's enough.
And these are conversations that being a female in the space you don't get to openly have a lot of And just hearing you say like the fear of failure and how that is kind of a very prevalent thing and it's not really talked about as much, Like really hits home for me to just hearing this. And you're a lot better at putting feelings and thoughts and towards
them than what I am at doing. Just to explain what this is, what it's like, I mean, it's definitely it's a different experience that women have right, I was one of the reasons I was uncomfortable in the public eye. It was a little uncomfortable on television. I didn't I came up sort of at the dawn of social media too, and I started building a social media following, and then
I backed off because it's a different experience online. Well, you're more scrutinized to and you're expected to know more. And if a guy doesn't know, it's okay, whatever, who cares. But if a girl doesn't know, it's like, wait, she doesn't know that. You don't know that?
Like, yeah, I think there's kind of an assumption that you're not meant to be there as a woman, so you kind of have to like almost overcompensate to a degree. That's just society, right, Like these people there aren't people. There's a lot of hate on social media, and I think a woman's experience on social media and a woman's experience in the public eye is a really different experience
than a guy's experience. Yes, everyone is scrutinized. I think women get a lot more hate and various other inappropriate interactions, right, And I just didn't want to do that, Like I don't have the time or space and my brain to be dealing with that every day. And I have every respect for those of you who are succeeding in that space and able to turn that off because it's a lot. And I heard you say on the podcast before, you know you have to work twice as hard for half
the respect, and I think that's really true. I think it is changing. And again it's kind of just society. And the example I have is, so I was the first female analyst in motorsport, right like, not on ESPN, but in motorsport at all in the US certainly, who knows about the rest of the world. And so we were at a race and I went to go check out my position. There's two seats, they got microphones in
front of them on a bored and whatever. So I need to go check out my position and get a feel for how I was going to see and interpret the track for the audience. During a practice session, very normal, and there's a sound guy and he's thinking around trying to get stuff working, and I sit down on my seat and he's like, well, you can't sit there, and I was like why not. I said, well, that's for the analyst, and my co host was there and he was like, that is the analyst and he was like,
oh my god, I'm sorry. Right, but the base assumption is that I don't belong there and that a woman couldn't possibly, but also, yeah, of course not I was the only one. Yeah, very fair assumption on his part. So yes, I think there is a different experience that men and women have. I don't think a lot of it is like a deliberate sexist, I don't think so.
I think there just has been a figure in that space for people to know that it's possible, absolutely, and I do see that shifting absolutely the.
More and more women that there are. I've started working with Amanda Sorensen, who is she has a pretty robust social following and she plays in a lot of different motorsport realms and it's actually really great working with her because she doesn't anticipate some of the backlash that I
just I do. But I'm my mindset's a little older, right, like, so I'm expecting more resistance and she just doesn't expect it to be there, and it's which is great, Like how much have things changed in twenty years.
Because I think I still have a little bit of that expecting backlash.
Yeah, and I think you're kind of like you're between our ages, right, and your experience is a little different time as well, And so I think it is changing.
I think it's changing really fast. And there are now a ton of women in motorsport paddocts, maybe not all driving, and it would be great to see more women driving, but again in due time, that's changing too, right, Like it used to be a kid, even with parents who are race car drivers, the boy in the family would be like, yeah, you can be a race car driver, and the girl in the family would be like.
You should be a doctor, you know, or whatever it is.
And I think now it's like, well, if you, I mean you guys should both race, and if you're both good at karting, like sure, let's put you in race cars. And that just wouldn't have a generation ago, that wouldn't have been the assumption, right.
You know, I'm staying really quiet on this, and I'm so happy you guys are having this conversation. I'm so happy you're here, Amelia to be able to talk to Jen to share this to all the female listeners out there. Prior to this conversation, if I'd have this conversation, I would go, no, no, no. I think you guys could do this, and you can do this, but the female
experience is something that I will never understand. And when you articulate it that way, is that there's a whole set of problems and you know, societal boundaries or expectations that women have that men will never understand. It's like, it actually is very clear to me now, and it's just beautiful that you guys are able to share. And also like it does sound positive that it's changing and getting better.
Yeah, I think it is. I think it's just sometimes you don't know something is possible or even able to do it until you see someone else do it. And that's the cool thing that I really feel like social media and the internet helped expedite that process because seeing other people do things was a lot more tangible.
I mean, I would not be here without Michelle Mouton. I met her once. I was just like, I.
Can you share who this person is? Michelle?
So, Michelle Mouton was a World Rally Championship driver. She must have been the first or certainly the most. She has a few first victory, a few first things. I don't want to miss speak on exactly.
Yeah, in the eighties.
Yeah, and she was it was the Audi Quattro, Yeah, squattro.
She did Pike's Peace.
She was fast.
I remember meeting her. She was staying beside a friend's brother and I kind of knew my friend's brother and they were talking and I was just like.
I don't care about celebrity normally, right.
Like people are people, and people are awesome, and I want to share their experiences and hear their experiences. And part of this maybe just having been a journalist. Nobody's ever been behind a barrier for me. But there's this woman and I'm like, oh my god, that's Michelle.
I would have found out.
I found out.
I don't think I've ever found out before.
No.
I found out hard. I couldn't talk. I tried to approach her several times, like literally, she's standing at the side of a racetrack, like any other person that's standing at the side of a racetrack watching stuff happen. And finally I went I was like, oh my god, you're such an inspiration. You know, the dumbest, like how many like what what do you say?
You know?
Finally, what what I do say is meet your idols for sure, because we talked for a little while and I was like, you know, you are really an inspiration. It sounds cheesy, but it's amazing as you cool.
Didn't mean because I say, don't meet your hero No, No, definitely do. I definitely do.
And we talked about it, and I, you know, talking about being a role model, and I think she's very aware that she is a role model. But I was like, you know, it was just so great because you're like super competitive, and she's like, yeah, you know, because I never wanted to be fast for a girl.
I was just fast.
Oh, I say the same thing, right, like when I've never played the female card for being the fastest female C eight Corvette. I just wanted to be the fastest period.
The car doesn't know.
Yeah, the car doesn't know what gender you are. The car really doesn't give a fuck. Sorry, but like, yeah, yeah, she was amazing to me.
Still inspired by her, and yeah, so it's super important to have role models. And it's weird at this stage of my career where I kind of realized, I guess I am a role model.
To some weird thing, isn't it.
Yeah.
I get told that for myself, and I'm like, I don't understand how because I don't think I had so much of that when I was younger in this space, and then I found it as I grew older. But it's like a weird thing to think that you are a roll bottle.
I think just being present and being and doing and following your heart and being open and you pass it forward. Right again, It's a small industry. Sometimes you talk to people and they think the world is a zero sum game. There's like five resources and everybody's fighting over those same five resources, and if somebody gets one of the resources, then there's only four left.
Yeah, And that's not how I see the world. I thin totally agree that there.
Is enough for everybody, and if there's a really great opportunity, new resources will be made to service that opportunity. Or you know, if there is new genius in the world, there will be a space for it. Right, So support everybody, Support everybody's work, everybody's projects.
Life is not a zero sum game. There may be competitions in racing, but life is in a competition. Everyone's on their own path and that's okay, and some people's happen quicker than yours, but you're on a path for in and it really is no competition. I sincerely believe that, And I like, I love cheering other people on because if someone else is doing great, you're going to do great too. It's just how it works.
I'm just like so impressed with both of you today. I'm like extra proud that we get to do this podcast because, honestly, same, I've always yearned for mentors in my life, both of you. For whoever is listening, it's like, you know, you guys are just wonderful, like you know, teachers to be able to listen to Hu Hien right and talking about stuff within the like the automobile industry
or the racing industry. And because I have a habit I think many of us do, but I'm trying to work on it is not to compare myself to other people.
Yeah, I think everyone struggles with that. Yeah, it's hard not.
To, of course, and especially in this town. Right, Like you're driving down the street and you see billboards and you're not on.
Them, right, I don't.
I don't.
I don't know how you guys do it. I don't like the whole Hollywood thing, Like I don't know how you audition and get that many no's, like I just I can't. I mean, it's good. And one of the jobs I had when I was in college was telemarketing, which was amazing because you.
Get a lot of nos for telemarketing. It taught me a lot about set a few more choice awards than just no even oh.
Yeah, I interrupted a lot of stuff. I don't know why people answer the phone when they're having sex, but sometimes they do.
So you glossed over this, but I feel like it's so important to just pause and talk about the fact that you brought rally cross to the US.
What is that?
So?
Rally cross is a it's a motorsport. Currently it's nitro cross. Travis Pastrona is the face of the new imagining of American rally cross. It's rally style cars. They've diverged quite a lot now, but originally it was rally style cars racing door to door on a closed course. So the thing about stage rally, if you're not familiar with stage rally, if you want to go watch a stage rally, you
have to figure out where it is. Then you have to get a map of the stage rally, and then you have to find a place to intersect the road where the cars are going to be racing, and then you have to stand on the side of the road in whatever inclement weather nature is throwing at you that day with your thermos of coffee and watch cars come by in one minute intervals. It's amazing on television. It's an adventure in person, not everybody's cup of tea in person.
Rally cross is kind of the answer to that. So it is these rally style cars which are capable of going very fast in a straight line and also amazing hairy sideways, angled slides, racing door to door. So you also don't have to do the math to figure out who's going faster than who because they're racing. They all start at the same time, but it all happens five laps, super fast, short heats, really exciting indoors out on a track.
I had the.
Pleasure of going to one of the recent races and it was such a It was windy and no one cared which period. It was a great time. If people wanted to go watch rally cross, if they wanted to see what the schedule was, they wanted to go to a race, how would they go find that.
So it's called nitro cross now and it's nitrocross Racing dot com.
Okay, for people who don't know Trevis Pastrano, it's.
Astra if you have if you have autocorrect, then definitely it's Pastrami.
I remember his name.
Definitely, word Microsoft Word thinks it's Pastrami. I have had to correct that out of press releases.
But if you YouTube him, he's basically he's doing what Ken Block is doing for.
Crazy amazing innovator. He started racing motocross, he started racing on two wheels. He was the first guy ever to do a double backflip on a motorcycle. I think that was like six or seven. He's just like a while. He jumped out of an airplane without a parachute.
So it's all, oh, yeah, he's been around a long time. Yeah yeah, what's next for you? Then? What's you know? You're kind of in that boat open, figure it out, make the time for new things to come in type thing.
Yeah.
I mean I I've worked with Papadoccus Racing since twenty ten. I continued to do that. I work with Ryan Tirk, I work with Frederick Osbo. I'm working with Amanda Sorenson not with Papadoccus Racing. I need to correct that because she's also in the Formula Drift paddock, but I don't have anything to do with her FD team. That's more of an influencer. What is she doing with the other
parts of her career. So I've sort of taken a step back to refocusing on the drivers, and they're also their social properties and so there's a lot of opportunity for me to flex my creative jobs as well as marketing and sponsorship sales. So those are the things I'm focusing on right now, doing a little bit of stuff with grid Life as well, which is another super fun property. I loved life.
What is that.
It's a music and motorsport festival, So they have drifting, They have a grid Life Touring Cup which is short like fifteen minutes, touring, car racing.
And everything from drifting. Those of these three main the three main disciplines.
Where have I been for me under a rock?
Literally, it's it's very passion oriented. As I say, Music and Motorsport festival. There are five stops this year. The closest one to us is Laguna and it'll be at Laguna in the fall. The big one is Midwest at Gingerman but it's largely amateur racing. So I mean, you say you've never been a race car driver, Here is your chance. You get a car from Amelia.
You guys get the car driver. There you go, and it's time attack, so you can't race.
I can't do it.
Yeah, but time attack is different.
Not that it's because I'll quit everything and go want to be a race car driver.
Welcome to being a race I don't mean.
Well, that's why I can't. Bees don't work for me. Like golf, I can get too competitive, Yeah, because I'm so competitive.
Yeah, I'm the same. I literally at my first race, I bought a race car. You know, you know it's a path.
It's a path that I shouldn't go on because it's going to go nowhere to just make me broke right and homeless. Eventually, I need to feed this dog. Well for the young folks, I'm sure there's questions out there, and I actually was, like you mentioned that you came from traditional like print journalism, and now there's this influencer
like person. What sets certain influencers apart as a race car driver, As an influencer, what does one need to be aware of and what can one like work on to become successful?
Jeezu, Melia, it feels like you're the person answer that.
Objectively. You know objectively.
I think you have an eye for talent, so you're the right person answer this question.
Oh dear, well, that's very kind. I think a willingness to learn and a willingness to grow. So I'm going to give away a secret here. With race car drivers or with people that I'm interested in kind of working with, there's a little tests they sometimes do and I will bring out three juggling bean bags. I'm not a very good juggler, but I can juggle, and I'll hand them the bean bags and see what they do and if they really try and they fail, because it's a lot
harder than it looks when you're first learning. It's not actually that hard, but it is when you don't know what to do, it's hard. It's like you know, solving a Rubik's cube or something. It's just the thing you know how to do or not. If that person tries and drops the bean bags and then says no weight, to show me again, and then drops the bean bags again and then continues to try that's a person I
want to work with. They're willing to grow, they're willing to learn, they're willing to fail if they try once fail and then smash them down in frustration. That's not a person I will work with.
People have done that.
Oh yes, yeah, yeah really yeah, And it's just you know, it just shows something kind of fundamental about their character.
Do they want to grow?
Like they may want to on paper, grow, but they aren't willing to go through the unable moment of not being good at something. And I'm actually more do what I say, not what I do. Like I'm more inclined to like smash the thing down and be like I suck at those I don't want to do it anymore, and I don't want to work with those people. That's something I actively work on with myself, is like being
open to not being perfect at things. So I think it's about again, it's just like a willingness to learn and being open to growing.
That's a characteristic that she has that she does. Yeah, like it really is. It's like there was this moment where I was like I caught that, and I was like, she's always willing to challenge yourself, even within criticism and learn from it and become better and walking away from that, you're like, wow, that's those are characteristics of a winner.
And it's okay to fall, it's okay to you know, fail to drop the bean bag, right, and but it's your willingness to like, you know, put the embarrassment in the ego to the side and go, let me try to figure this out. And sometimes you don't. Maybe you never figure it out, but you're just you're still grinding. It's one step forward and it's like it's almost so simple. But that's something that I can take, you know, and I still can apply today because it's you know, from
you know, what we do in Hollywood. It's like every day you're, like you were saying, it's like it's a no every day, I'm too handsome for that role, a.
Problem with which we all have.
Every day celebrities are they.
But every day it's a no. You know, there's a no from something right, and it's like it's and I think I'm gonna I'm gonna that's it's I'm gonna borrow that. It's like there's another beam bag I dropped, Like get up and start juggling and maybe I'll never figure it out. At least I'm able to try to juggle right, and that's that's something. And also you were talking about gratitude to be able to step back and go, dude, I'm
just like grateful to be here. It's like something that I have to keep reminding myself every day is like to go, hey, look at my life. You know, look at my wife, look at my dog. I have health, you know, having the headlights on bright, you know, and that's something that you know I relate with, you know, and like I was like, God, that's awesome. Then Jen also believes.
That, Oh I wish I knew it when I was twenty. You know, Comparison is the thief of joy. We talked about that earlier. When I was younger, it was like I got to do this. I got to do this thing. I'm not where I should be. I'm late, you know, I didn't take a journalism degree. So now I'm doing this intern thing and I'm like in my min twenties, I'm doing an internship.
What am I thinking?
And just to pause and reflect on where I'm at and realize how awesome things can be. I mean, it's always perfect and sometimes things are really terrible. Sometimes you pause and reflect and you're like, yep, today sucks. But that's when you drop the bean bag and you're like, Okay, I got to pick it up and try again, but maybe not till tomorrow. I'm just gonna take a little
minute for me. But deliberately and consciously practicing gratitude is something that I brought into my life in the last few years, and I think it's you know, there's a little bit of a cheesy pop psychology moment for that, but also that is where the joy lives. The joy is and realizing and understanding what you have and it doesn't need to be what somebody else has. We talked earlier about being on our own paths.
Right.
I wake up in the morning. I'm so lucky. I love a block away from the beach. I have a ridiculous giant dog who has all the joy in the world. Every time he sees the water. I get to go and watch sunrise with him every morning as he splashes around in the water. Like what a great situation that is. I grew up in Toronto. I own palm trees. Now my house has palm trees on it. I don't have to deal with sleet and snow in the morning. So yeah, gratitude is it's key, I think to happiness.
Yeah, so simple, so hard at the same time, so hard.
Yeah.
And that's where like social media, it's like I start noticing, like I get super mentally disturbed.
It's exhausting, right.
But it's necessary evil to it. It's like you can't avoid it.
I think you have to be deliberate about it. Like, I think the worst thing ever is doom scrolling, Right, somebody says scrolling.
Scrolling even heard of that, where you just scroll for hours on it. You just let the algorithm feed you whatever it's feeding you.
Yeah, doom scrolling, well.
Yeah yeah, if you're really tired and you just only find energy and being able to it's it's a dark place, yeah, And.
I mean it is. It does insight comparison. So I actually have a TikTok account that's for my dog that basically only has like fuzzy puppies on it, Like basically the algorithm understands that that account is for fuzzy cute puppy. And so that's how I deal with doom scrolling. I'm like, I'm going to go look at my happy outfit.
Wow, I have forced myself this year. I made a resolution that I was only going to try to go on social media if I was looking for inspiration or was planning to post. I'm trying not to allow myself to scroll. And if I want to scroll, I go. This isn't an ad. I go on dueling and I learn another language. And that's my form of all Right, I don't feel like reading a book. I don't feel like doing my emails or turn a rent right now,
I'm just going to play DUELINGO. So then at least I'm learning something too.
Yeah. I replaced my social media folder on the front page of my phone with the New York Times. I play the games on the New York Times to sort of fill the like random scrolling. I play Wordley because again, like obviously I'm one hundred years old, because I play Wordle do connections in the morning. And actually, yesterday I was out lunch with a friend and I can't remember what he called it, but I renamed during lunch, I renamed my social media folder to poison.
That's a good idea.
I think his was like toxic sledge or something, and like, don't get me wrong. Social has tremendous value, but I think you should be deliberate about it. I should choose to go watch Amelia's feed, right, I should choose to be inspired by you in a day, not let that algorithm just like feed me things, right.
Right.
I run to social media when I start feeling insecure.
It's the worst thing to do.
It's up because it isn't that weird.
If I find my screen time is too high and I'm like, man, I need to get out of this headspace of scrolling and do something else. I turn off the color on my phone.
It's good.
It's not the color.
Yeah, So then it's just black and white because you find the things that attract you on social media's because it's bright. That's all these colors. It's very like such a science behind you off the colors on your phone and it's black and white, yeling, and this is boring.
It's an accessibility setting.
Yeah.
One of my pet peeves is you're at lunch with somebody and they are on their phone. I can't even be their friends. I put them in a different category. All of a sudden, someone's talking to you and they pick up their phone and they're like this, and then I've seen it where we're having an intimate conversation, like the three of us and one fools on Instagram.
Just wait till everyone's are in the goggles.
You'll never know who's doing a lot.
That's crazy. That's crazy, And I call them on it, and I'm like, yo, we drove all the way over here to spend time with each other. You're now rare this this might be like one of ten meetings left as friends and you're on Instagram. Yeah, like scrolling strangers Like I don't understand it, and you realize it's an addiction.
Yeah, it totally is an addiction. I'm I just had this conversation with a friend yesterday. I have to do more stuff right. The pandemic twenty twenty one. Part of twenty two was dire right. I was inside my house. I opened a boot like bakery.
So bummed that I wasn't able to go get some of those chalk cli croissans or the almond croissans, one of the croissants. She opened up a bakery at her own house during during COVID time. Was kind of like, I was obsessed with your stories, obsessed. When we were talking with ed about the sour dough bread I was talking about her. I still need to try these croissans. I will make you some crysoons. I will make you some croissants. She didn't have to enough to get free
business during COVID. Well, okay, and it was contact list for listening.
It was well, I had I had a job, like I was working for an energy dr company. I had a real job. So I took this job expecting to be like going to events and promoting events and working with athletes and doing all this exciting stuff. And I was stuck at home by myself on zoom calls for eight hours a day, just losing my soul, you know, because I'm basic. I started making sour dough bread because that's what you do, and because I have nothing else
to do, I'm documenting it all on social media. But really, what I want more than anything in the world is a chocolate croissant. And the pandemic is like two months in and I haven't had a chocolate croissant because everything's closed and bakeries are closed and you can't go to a cafe and get one. And I don't even eat chocolate croissants. Set off and it's like a twice yearly thing, but I need one because it's my comfort food. So I started learning how to make them and documenting it
on social media. I was living for these stories like Instagram. That's why I knew about sour dough bread. In the process, and we were talking with d I ended up buying flour in fifty pound bags. Like it became. As I say, I follow my passions and kind of serially, and so the baking became a bit of a passion and it broke up my week. But you can't eat I mean, that's a lot of pastry and I'm vaguely gluten intolerance, so I.
Shouldn't eat any of them.
So but I just really enjoyed the process, and so then I started selling them on Sunday mornings. I lived in the Venice Canals in a little tiny apartment that backed out onto the canals, and you know, it was the pandemic. People were walking around outside. So I started just like masking up and selling my wares. So on Sundays, I basically had this bootleg bakery where I would get up at five o'clock in the morning prepare pastries. People would be lined up by nine thirty. It was so stressful.
I'd be like trying in my tiny apartment oven trying to get any heat into these pastries, and then I would be sold out within an hour. And it was very funny because it ended up being this kind of weird have you heard.
About the lady that makes the pastries?
And people would line up. It became a thing during the pandemic. And then I did the other basic thing that one does during the pandemic, as it turns out, and I got a dog, and he weighs one hundred and fifty pounds and his head is counter height and he really likes pastries. So that ended my baking career. Yeah, Steve, Steve the dog started enjoying the pastries. It's very hard to bake when you have one hundred and fifty pound
dog who really wants what you've got working on the counter. However, I can occasionally, so come to an FT event and I'll get you some past.
My mouth is watering, like there's a Gens chocolate croissants. It has a great ring to it with Steve as the mess.
Just look at a photo of these puppies.
Wow, my constructive way past the pandemic.
We could have talked forever. I've thoroughly enjoyed this and I would love for down the line. Maybe season two, you come back on and join us. This was amazing.
Maybe teach us how to make some chocolate. Yeah, we'll bring an ove in. We'll just do that. But thank you. It was a gift and a true honor to get to know you better.
You guys, thank you so much.
I really enjoyed chatting with you today about our crazy wide range of topics. And I will bring croissants next time for sure.
Please, thank you,