Welcome to the Can med coffee talk podcast. Test. Will we talk with the leading minds in cannabis science, medicine, cultivation, and safety testing. I am your host, Ben Ama, S I am the marketing manager at Medicinal Genomics, and proud member of the team that puts on the Can med conference. Alright. Well, I don't have my for updates this episode other than to tell you that our team is working hard on finalizing the
details for Cam 25. But We still have some eyes to dot and tease to cross before we can make our public announcement, but let's just say Keep your schedule clear for mid June. We're also aiming to add our Cam 24 presentations to the Cam Archive, by the end of the month. We apologize for the delay on that. But we still have 5 years worth of Can med content in the archive now, so feel free to check out those videos and all the past episodes of the K med coffee talk podcast at k events dot com.
And while you're there, make sure to sign up for email alerts, so you don't miss any announcements. My guest today is David Aaron. David is a cannabis educator who since 20 18 has directly educated more than 5000 health professionals. Nationwide on the medical applications of cannabis. He is on the faculty for Pe, 1 of the nation's largest providers of professional continuing education, and he independently provides seminars for health professionals around the country.
I learned during our conversation that David also has post treatment lyme disease, which is a condition that causes fatigue, neuro pain, brain fog, forgetful and other chronic symptoms that he treats with cannabis. His experience made him curious whether others have found success using cannabis to treat persistent lime. And has shared his findings at Cam 24 as a poster presentation and also with me to in the conversation you're about to hear. We covered what is lyme disease and how
does 1 acquire it? The different stages of lyme disease treatments that are available to treat chronic lime, how David collected data for the study and which types of product are effective for chronic lyme symptoms. Before we get to my conversation with David, I'd like to thank this episode sponsor Mckinney, Rsa.
Mckinney Rsa is made up of regulatory science veterans who apply lessons learned in the nicotine space, to help cannabis manufacturers better understand the toxic and societal implications of their product. They do that by identifying base compounds, extracts, flavors, tu, understanding how they interact and ensuring effectiveness for the intended use. They also provide dosing recommendations and establish guidelines for product consistency. You can learn more at Mc mckinney Rsa. Dot com.
Okay. And without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with david aaron Good afternoon, David. Thanks so much for joining you on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Glad to be hear. Alright. Well, I'm excited to talk with you today about using cannabis to potentially treat persistent and post treatment lyme disease. And this is a timely topic for me because I actually found a deer tick on my torso a few weeks back. Thankfully, I called it early and took a
dose of antibiotics. So I'm hopeful that I prevented an infection, but I we can get into that a bit. But nevertheless, lyme disease has at least been on my mind recently. So, I'm happy that I've had a chance to to talk with you about it here today. And about whether cannabis can be used to treat long term cases. But before we get into all that, I think it would be helpful to establish you the basics of what lyme disease is. So could you could you do that for us?
We're absolutely. And so... And and so when first to finance something important to note. So lyme disease is a bacterial infection. So cannabis is not going to cure lyme disease at all. It's a I would... Well, I look at as a as a symptomatic and palliative treatment for the illness because there's so many symptoms.
And, so many side effects from treatments is stuff like that that's very helpful in that way But lime is a bacterial infection that is transmitted primarily by ticks, and the ticks, deer ticks, primarily, although they're found in other types of ticks. There's black legged ticks in the northern latitude in in the Western part of the country too, like in California. There aren't deer ticks, but they also carry lyme disease, but they're also finding it in lone star ticks and and and
dog ticks and Wood. So it can be found in any kind of tick that's just the most commonly in the deer tick because the way the life cycle works they contracted from mice, actually, So just regular old mice or the reservoir for lime. And then the the baby ticks pick it up from that, they and they can give it to deer, but then they get on the deer and they fall up deer and then they often find us or they find us before the deer.
But like I said, there are other ticks in, they all carry lots of different presence for us. So it's not just lyme, an. Having only lyme disease is often the section to the rule. And so what I would encourage you to do is just ask for a follow up test. For for a full panel, the other stuff, and if you at all feel them well in the next few weeks.
For because there's a there's about a dozen things that they carry that they can pass on to us, and it's very common for people have 2 or 3 infections at a time. Oh, wow. And it's a it's a special kind of bacteria. It's a aspire key, much like syphilis, so it's like a little cork screw. And so it really gets into cells into tissue, and so It can hide really a well from our immune system we can even. Hang on to white blood cells themselves. And then on that, but it can change shape. So
they'd you know, when you take... If if it's been in the body for a long time and well established. There's enough of them when when they're exposed to 1 type of antibiotic, they'll actually... Change into a different type of bacteria that's not susceptible to that type of antibiotic until it's gotten in the teach. But it's really... It's wild. There's a... It's just a nutty thing. So it's very advanced and it's hard to treat once it becomes... It's systemic in
the body. But if you catch it very early, then it's then just, you know, a few a few rounds of do cycling is pretty much all it takes for most people. But when, when it persists, can... It can persist to... And tell me wants to read 10 to 20 percent people can end about chronic conditions, either from a continuing infection or from damage done by they the illness. So what is sort of, like, I guess this is more of a personal question. So how what is sort of the the timeline?
From, you know, despite or your experience symptoms. There's 3 basic stages of the initial stages flu like symptoms and so and so people feel pretty sick right away. So, like, I... So the reason I came so interesting. This is I had a really bad case. So I... And so when I first had, I definitely had, like, a summer flu that didn't go away. And I went saw the doctor, and she she gave me a line test, what she said, I went should to come back in 2 weeks because are very often wrong.
And a couple weeks later, I felt a lot better, and she said it was negative. I never went back. I really should have gone back. So that's something to be aware of is that the the testing is terrible, for lyme season in general. It's got a little better, but it's but it's it's a hard thing to detect in the body. They don't culture it or anything that they're looking for antibodies that can be hard to detect. And so did you ever find a a tick or... Yeah. Yeah. I got a scar
from it and everything? Because because when happened to me was I found at the day bit me, but I didn't have a, like, a tick scoop or a pair of tweezers. So I I did what my dad did for me as a kid, which she's definitely you're not supposed to do. I heated a paper clip, red hot, and I killed the tick. While it was on me. But But that just may, what that does is make it reg everything into. And so, like, almost guaranteeing infection. Oh, wow. It sounds.
So that that was that was bad. At pieces of it in me had to dig it out is is really... It's, like, worst case scenario for that. Wow. The pieces by they laid dormant for many years, I such you're sub acute. And then, I got bitten again or or it was also at the same time as was a major life stress, and then I became a had major neurological symptoms after that. Oh, the symptoms you experience was well after that initial... So
I... Yeah. I had that, and then I had this, like, weird back pain for somebody in their twenties for many years, and then, like, I said, Major life stress are lost in the family, and all of a sudden, I started going numb from my feet up. Like Wow And then having all sorts of weird, like, getting lost on the way home from work and all sorts of really unpleasant things, Lots of pain. And it took a long time to get the right diagnosis. Wow, wow.
So I think we sorta of touched on it there, like, the different stages, Right Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So there's a second... Second stations when it becomes kind of more dis in the body, we're end it... Right starts, like joint pain and stuff like that, and then, the third stage is is in the nervous system. And that's when it becomes much harder to treat because that typical courses of antibiotics generally aren't effective. Usually, Iv antibiotics are needed.
So prior to that sort of last stage, like, a a course of antibiotics. Yeah. But what might need to be for a long time, and if they're multiple infections that have gotten out there, then you might need multiple types of antibiotics,
it gets... It can... The treatment side like, in the diagnosis is 1 thing within the treatment side of things as a whole other kind of mess, honestly, because there's not there's no established protocol for these multiple infections And so everybody's got their own way of doing it.
Everybody thinks they're right. And, they're probably right for some people and not for others and sort of it's, you know, It gets to be a a tricky thing and a lot of it is not covered insurance and it gets really messy. And so is it also an issue to? Like, you could get rid of the back. Bacteria, but there's lasting effects. Yes. Absolutely. So that's that's where I'm at. At this point in my life too or, I know, I've got peripheral perform on the neuropathy now from
it. I have an immune deficiency. I definitely don't have lyme disease But I have I have a lot of symptoms of of, without a better explanation might start to look like Ms. But as long as I take take care of myself Fine. So what you're telling me is I should call my doctor and get more antibiotics. If you at all feel on well the next couple weeks. Yeah. That's what I would do. Alright. So we did... Alright. So, yeah That
was great. I think we we touched on how people acquire it, what the difference the stages are. We briefly touched about different treatment. No. Was that a rabbit hole that we can go to? It's a bit of a rabbit hole. What what I would suggest would people get... If people get lyme disease and the initial treatment isn't enough. Then a great thing to do is there's few resources. 1 is to look up your local line... Many...
Especially if you're in a major urban area are a largely populated state, there's gonna be lime disease support groups. Your You contact them. You say, I'm really sick that my initial treatment is not working. I'm looking for names of doctors who specialize in treating line because it it really is a specialty. It's called lime literate is a is a term to use. I'm looking for a limelight physician. There's another organization called eye lads. It's called international Lyme and
associate. A disease society. They they really have established a protocol for this and that's where our, your limelight literate positions get their training from. A you can go to their website and do a search for doctors trained in your area, and find somebody who talk to. Most of the time these people will not be accepting insurance. And so I good rule of thumb is to get a get a good quality rule. If you're sick, And and you wanna know if you truly have lyme disease amount you probably expect
to spend somewhere around a thousand dollars. Oh, wow. Yeah. Just to find out if you have it. Really? Yeah. Once if you're talk about bringing the doctor 200 dollars an hour for their time, and then the testing is generally out of pocket. And the testing would be from those lime literate physicians and... They would they would draw the less with without... There's there's a few labs that really... Because I told you the testing so bad
the standardized test. There's... Yeah. Apps that are fully accredited and good labs, but they're they they're not insurance coverage. Generally because they do their own assays essays, and so they're... That's but they do a good job and that's usually where these doctors will send the test. Okay. Yeah. And I have to imagine too. I mean, at least for my own experience with with finding the deer tick. It's... Tiny. I mean, I think they described it's like the size of a sesame seed. Yeah. The
nits can be that small. Yep. So I imagine that, you know, like, perhaps in your case too where you have some of that that summer flu or something or that, you know, that sickness that you just can't kick, and, you know, attributed to. Oh, it's a virus or something, but it really could have been No. Yeah. My... You... Sometimes people don't know there a bit my dad almost died last year. Here's any... Room ended and out for for 3 days.
They didn't know it was wrong with them, and he kept getting fevers and and his organs were failing. Emergency and I showed up I said have you tested for ticks, and they went, what do you do for a living section. Every you mind. And I was right. And then I given my antibiotics and you bounced right back. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And so that didn't develop into some
sort of... Persistent condition? No, because it was it was a it was that was a it was a rare kinda of case where it hit him hard and fast and it was anti osmosis. That was really tanking him. Then that and that happens, sometimes I mean, he's old. Says 80. And and, yeah. Sometimes that happens. Is that fevers of, like a hundred and 4. Not wow. Yeah. That's up there. Yep. So your your study look particularly at persistent and post treatment lyme
disease. Well, yeah. So and we called that that because, in the the from our so a couple things. 1 is, I didn't want to allude to the fact that 1 should treat acute. Like, a acute case with just cannabis so. But also, in the dataset, these are people that are or, you know, filling out form saying I have lyme disease. So I don't know what stage they're at. Mh
but so it's... That's seem like a a large enough grouping that's is kind of safe to assume that but that they're either treating persistent cases or post treatment, but There's no reason that some of them couldn't have been acute, but it's just unlikely if they're just in that short treatment window of 2 weeks on oxy that they would enter this world of tree with cannabis? Yeah. Right. The symptoms that we're tracking, like, anxiety, inflammatory pain, sleep. Those kinds of things are are common
in the later stages of life. Right and again, if you're treating with cannabis, you've probably already been through the standard round. These are those are assumptions that... But we can't interview these these patients. So we're really just looking at... They say they have lyme. And they're treating x symptom, and and the the tool helps them rate it on different scales. So it what's interesting now.
As as ubiquitous as lame is as much as cannabis has being looked at nobody ever looked at these 2 together before. And if you... Which is really surprising. Because if you do a... Just a simple Google search, there's a lot where every dis dispatcher is telling you should treat your lyme disease with cannabis. And lots of lots of, doctors websites have, you know, blog posts about using cannabis to help of lyme
disease. And lots of line blogs and and lime informational websites tell you Cbd and cannabis are good symptomatic treatments, but absolutely, nobody has done. Any academic formal look at it until not. Which is really weird. And, you know, we're doing a retrospective, sort of natural study, and we're continuing to examine more symptoms and then and kinda parse out the data. Because it really is effective and once end it's interesting that it affects people. So the things that line people...
Sorry, Lyme disease is often a root cause of things like rheumatoid. Mh. Als, it can be mistaken for Parkinson's, it for lupus, f, these are all things people we commonly use cannabis to treat. Right? So very... So and they're not always caused by lyme, but Lime is 1 of the potential... Causes of these syndromes. And so that was very interesting to me too.
And so what we found though is that people who like use it for art for inflammatory pain if they have lyme, respond differently than people who are using. Inflammatory pain who don't have. Same thing with Anxiety. How so. So, like, higher Thc formulations were found more relieving for anxiety than mixed canada ratios with people with lime. Whereas we look at overall, on the other ends, it's usually the other way around, like, a 1 to 1 or a highest higher Cbd
ratio formula will be better. When better for live? But for anxiety. I see. So the Thc is more helpful for lyme. Because it's better relieving inflammation. Right? Strat, in sense. Or... And so it's interesting. So there's a lot, Mean, I when we talk about the data, there's a lot... I can I can say about that Pretty interesting? Yeah. Let's talk about that. I mean, first of all, you know, where where you getting this data? Like, how Yes. Where's? There's it There's a great app.
And website called strain print, strain print dot c a. It's a Canadian company, but they also track a fair amount of American product. As well. So it's a really great use tracking tool. So x And I... So I suggest to people regardless because it's it's helpful because, you know, you might say say you use you use and you find out. My pain really relief, but I also then ask you are you feeling tired? Are you feeling you know, at irritable or upset something. So helps you note side effects as well?
Are and help dial in. So kinda help dialing in your dosing that way. But it asked people to identify their disease or or diagnosis, and then it'll give a list of symptoms commonly associated with those but then you can also choose your own. It tracks up to, like, 70 different symptoms, but a lot or and then you rate it, how you're feeling Obviously scale 1 step before. You put in what you took and then and then right
after. And so he... He's got for... If you're in Canada, for example, all the products and dis are loaded into that app. So it tracks all the testing data and stuff like that. So... Yeah. It's also useful for producers and and looking and studies to say, you know, what can of ratio might be good for this settlement and that sort of thing. So that That's a... It's interesting that so we're able to track a lot of different ratios of, products that people used.
And then this 1, we were... No. Is that down to, like, the batch level 2? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If if it's a company that's regularly submitting their stuff. Yeah. Yep. That's awesome. Yeah. And so that it's it's it's it's useful. Oh so many ways. It's really cool. Right. So the the we looked at a, combined of inhaled edible products, so we kinda put it all in 1, but it would be interesting to parse that out in the you... Nature.
And we looked at a, a range of canada ratios of including Thc only, Cbd only, and then natural ratios, So you might... In the data, you might say, like, a 25 to 1. That's that's a very high Thc cannabis, but it's still a natural ratio. So got some measurable amount of Thc and other Cbd and other cannibal that's in there. But we're really just looking at Thc and Cbd as well, and which it's is something I think is often not enough, but it's when more often than not.
And and going all the 1 to 1 and and on the other end of things. And what we found in this data set was there was an overwhelming preference for Thc, Very, very strong preference. And and very high in the Thc only I note that to a product availability. What's what's pushed in dis, you, there's a higher margin in dis in in for some in some ways sometimes. So... And then the convenience factor, there as well. So I think that's part of it And then that's also primarily what's Edible. Right?
They use just the as well because then they can have an even measure of dosage even though it may not be the best delivery. Method. So while that was used the most often, not in every case was it the most preferred, but I always scored very high. But when you when you look at other ones, what often score equally high and or better with less... Dosages, was natural ratios or a 1 to 1. Cbd only often also didn't perform very well. In general.
Then what was... We also looked at gender differences, and was really fascinating here was, so for pain, I just... I wanna make sure I get it right. Yeah. No. To you take a look. We found in anxiety... Like I said, Thc only performed really high, among it performed better and for for women than it did for, for men, which was interesting. And I'm sorry. For... Then then the Cbd did.
And then it was somewhat reversed for the inflammatory pain where men found it, found a better result, and efficacy from higher Cbd in Thc, and and women found high higher Thc or interest inflammation too, which is... So that doesn't say anything in particular other than it's really important that we continue to examine gender differences
because they're... Whenever we do there are. Particular I I believe that it's been a long time since I looked at what it was, but there's a study that looked at blood levels. And women have... Will yield higher levels of Thc from equal dosages often in their blood. So they're... So there's... It's just really important that we look at those differences so that we can better understand how to help people.
So what I... For example, so if you had somebody with high anxiety, you might not suggest that they use a high Thc product. But with this data, you could you could feel better about that or when they're telling you that that's what they're using. You might not. Oh, you shouldn't do that. And sorry to circle back, but I believe you were saying that, you know, you know, a lot of these symptoms say are similar to other conditions like p or, you know, inflammation and things like that.
But the... What was effective for, you know, for that versus what's effective for lyme was different. So, I mean, if if someone is at the stage where it's sort of more persistent lyme and that may have been un diagnosed before, is that something that they could get tested for to kind of get a better Yep. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. And so I... You know, anybody... So I I I've been a therapist for a long time.
This how I kinda... Oh, no. That's why I got into the education of this because I realized as I was sick that I had must... I know I had seen so many people. That's it had this because there's really strong psychiatric presentations. And so whenever if somebody... If somebody gets this far along and so, they're gonna have anxiety or insomnia, depression is very, very common in line. The fact there's that guy a Columbia Brian Fallon who has done studies where he he draws a positive link.
Which is a pretty daring thing to do. So that it's... Anytime people have a kind of persistent mental health disorder with a, not clearly diagnosed or or a syndrome type illness that's chronic. It's... And, especially if you live in the Northeast or spend a lot of time there. It's worth checking. Right. You know? And and and that that can be a challenge to get people to look at. It that... Though, the tide is changing slowly. It has looked at more and more, especially up in this area.
And now. So once people kinda get to this persistent or post treatment stage, is it then just all about managing symptoms, Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's it's complicated. Some people get a lot better when they they take antibiotics. And and... But there's a way that the illness works that there's a stage in treatments where, and it wax as a away. It cycles where you... It pre symptoms, so you feel a lot worse
for a while. And then before you feel better, And at the length of time that goes on is different for some people, and and a lot of people get get really discouraged and don't continue their treatments. And so really very. And some people can't don't get any better. Some people hit a wall, and they they don't get any better. Or there are certain things they could do that they don't do, You know, like, major diet changes and things like that. So it is really really variable.
This is all I can say is it's a... It's all very individualized treatment. Which is 1 of the reasons cannabis is so helpful. So, like, before I was diagnosed, you know, I I would use cannabis for the thing, that we would always use cannabis for you to have fun. And relax on the mind and he'll be sleep. But, when when I was diagnosed, I was taking you know, prescriptions for pain. The nerve pain terribly hard to treat. I was taking prescriptions for sleep, and and things that help me stay awake.
Awful. It's really awful. Yeah. Because that be... I be the basically if pharmacy asleep during the day, and I'm unable able to sleep at night. And when I when I understood that I lyme disease, I stopped taking all those things, and I was able to manage all of my symptoms with Canvas. And and I would Right. So I was able to get through all that antibiotic treatment, you know, the nausea and the the the the... It can really cause, you
know, Low, moon. I I was able to get through and manage that really well with with using canvas. And is that, you know, a combination Thc Cbd? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I... For me, it was... It's, you, it's pretty much high... I used a lot of high Cbd flower and a lot of high thc flour. I I'm am not able to use edible. I'm 1 of those people that... I, could eat Yeah. And that nothing happens. That is generally the the best for people.
Although, with when you have a lot of medications, that 1 of good things about canvas is you can use it in a method that's not going to try cause dangerous drug interactions we're we're by inhaling it. So you bypass the liver. That's, so that's 1 a good advantage. But... Yeah. It really it managed pain. It helped me sleep. It can, help... You know, lower immune inflammation without lowering your immunity because steroid treatments when you have an
infection aren't an option. Alright? So it's a... It, really fills in a lot of gaps for people with this kinda chronic illness. Yeah. No. And that's true cannabis in general. Right? It is very useful for sort of these tough to treat diseases. Yeah. It's not... It's... And anyway know, my... I do a lot of education for health professionals and then what I always start by saying is it doesn't cure anything. But it's it's so just the 1 of the best symptomatic treatments for almost everything.
Mh. In many ways. Alright. Well, David, winding down here, any sort of closing thoughts or maybe things we didn't cover with respect to Lime or or the data
that... I would say look for more. I am, myself and and the person dave David Berg that runs strain print, we're gonna be examining more symptoms, and and We're looking for academic partners to help, publish this stuff in the literature beyond you know, posters at conferences, but Be at more conferences with my posters as well So at the cannabis clinicians conference in October and Baltimore. And yeah. So... Excellent... No, the strain print database. Is that
something that's publicly available or... The database is not publicly available The app is. And and you can certainly contact David Berg, he loves working with people and sharing the data and, and finding ways to get it out there. So I heard anybody... That's interested in looking deeper at the data and finding out if it can help them out too. Contact David berg or myself and, or go through the stream print dot c a, website. And... Yeah. It's a it's a Ray
rachel. 1 of the largest databases of of natural cannabis data. He's got, like, I... So remember, I said nothing had ever been done. So when I asked them, do you have any any numbers of people diagnosed with like lime? Oh, like, 5000, over 5000. So the the end on this on these... Or we're over 5000. Yeah. So this he's good... There's, like, over 2000000 data points, and he's like, like, 80000 something in patients. It's it's pretty impressive. Yeah. No. That sounds like a great resource.
I'd love to love to talk with them, love to have them out of Canada next year. Oh, yeah Yeah. Yeah. You should you should give me you should give me a call. Yeah. I definitely will. I hope we'll see you there too. Oh, yes. I will I will be there. Alright, David. Again, thanks so much for the time. Definitely put some links in the show notes for people to learn more about your work and and the other resources that you shared. And Yes. Send me an email. I'll send
you. I'll send you some resources. I Awesome. And like I said, hope to see you down in in Cayman in again next year. Alright. Thank you, sir. Alright. Bye.