Canada land funded by you. Brown and today we are talking shit about the news. We'll talk about why it is getting harder for journalists to protect their sources. We'll talk about the brain gain. These are professional Brainiac Doge Dodgers relocating here from the U.S. But mostly today, we'll talk about Mark Carney's first real fumble. And the country he doesn't seem to much want to talk about. Was that a sweetheart loan? Are you beholden to China? Absolutely not. Wait for that.
Quick note before today's show, I wanna read you some listener email. This is from Andrew. Hi, Jesse. What is your sales pitch for why a conservative would support your podcasts? I've been tempted to support, but always thought Canada land was a far left news outlet. Oh my God. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you for this email. It gives me the opportunity to talk to this. Yes, you are completely off.
I mean, you're not completely off base. I get it. I understand how people who are conservative could listen to the show and listen to left-leaning ideas or left-leaning voices and say, this is a far-left news outlet. And I think in this hyper-partisan time, you know, I can forgive you for saying, why do I want to support somebody who's like out there for the other side against my interests? That's where I have to make a really important distinction.
We have left-leaning thinkers and voices, and we have right-leaning thinkers and voices, but we take zero position on who should win. For us, it is about having ideas tested, having arguments tested. So why should a conservative support us? The same reason why a liberal or somebody who's unaffiliated should support Canada land. You're going to hear opinions from people who think differently than you. And that's really good for you.
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Sandy Garasino of the National Observer and podcast host. Welcome back to the show. Great to be here, Jesse. Mark Carney defending his decision to keep a candidate in the race. while facing mounting calls to kick him out. In January, Chang told a Chinese language media news conference that people could cash in. if they turned Joe Tay into the Chinese consulate in Toronto. After Chang apologized, Carney decided he should remain in the race. I view this as a teachable moment.
Now says he will not be running for re-election. He is dropping out after the backlash to comments he made. Given that Mr. Carney still owns massive financial interests in Brookfield. which owes a quarter billion dollars to a Chinese state-controlled bank. So the story has evolved from Carney sticking by this candidate, Paul Chang, a former cop who said that his opponent. Should be handed over to.
Beijing authorities, I guess through these like illegal. Police stations. Yeah. Take my opponent to one of these illegal police stations that Beijing has installed in Canada and complete. disrespect to our sovereignty that have been like really plaguing Chinese Canadians and Chinese Canadians have been asking for support for years. And this guy says, my opponent, you know, I don't know a joke or what, but like take him in. and collect the bounty that Beijing has placed.
Collect the bounty. Yeah. A lot of information in there. This is dramatic stuff. Canadian politics is not boring. First, Chiang apologizes. I shouldn't have said that stuff. It was deplorable. I stand shoulder to shoulder with all of you Hong Kong freedom fighters, he says. And Carney says, I think he's learned his lesson. Carney says, this is a pardonable offense.
I will go back to the character of the individual who made a lap start. This is someone who has served our community, has been on the front line of policing for almost three decades. and has been standing up for those rights and has that track record for it. He's made his apology. He made it to the public. He made it to the individual concerned. He made it directly to me.
And he's going to continue with this kind of thing. Thank you. And the media, I think, takes a very firm stance. There were editorial board missives from the Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, Robin Urbeck. Basically, there was a consensus. That like, no, dude, no, that you cannot run a candidate who said this. I thought it was just a matter of time before Carney reversed himself. But then late Monday night.
Chang did it to himself. He said that he doesn't want to be a distraction and he's stepping out of the right. What did you make of this Sword of the Left? I have a question because this is something that has only just occurred to me. Do we know when Chang made this statement about Kay?
Yeah, it was back in January in a interview, a Chinese language interview. So this is one of those things that like, it's an interesting thing doing this kind of media analysis in this fractured media environment because we're increasingly seeing. Things like, you know, the Danielle Smith call with Breitbart, where it takes a couple of weeks.
Things are getting said in little pockets and it takes a while. Or do they just get flagged and brought back up right in the middle of an election campaign? Maybe. Because it serves somebody's interest. I mean, I think it's...
pretty clear do they still call them bozo eruptions that these things would happen and they would suddenly become front page news not when they happen but months later or a year later or something so obvious real flub by Carney and actually kind of a disturbing one in the sense that I feel like his brand, this is not somebody who's a practiced politician. We don't see him at ease at the podium and fielding these questions. There is still a brittleness to him.
But there has also been something else that has seemed to come through that I think that Canadians have... been taking a cotton to, which is there's kind of a seriousness. I think there's a sense that this is a real seasoned leader. He may not be a politician, but he is accomplished. and at ease in the role of leadership. And you see that with his comments about Donald Trump and his kind of very measured approach.
similar with this, and it just seemed soft. I don't see it as Pollyov is suggesting as some kind of sop to China, but it was a real miss, and especially on a day when he just wanted to make an announcement. where he was making an announcement that the federal government was going to be getting into the business of housing and building half a million homes for Canadians. But that wasn't the story.
The story was that he failed to oust this candidate. And I also don't think that the candidate eventually saw the light. I think that the... overwhelming and massive backlash from all directions and I would include in that probably highly placed liberals and experienced liberal campaign operatives who are not part of the campaign, but feedback going into the campaign.
I think that this is a universal failing grade, and it can't make it to the next news cycle. That resignation had to be in by midnight. which it was. I'm going to disagree with you a little bit here. I think you're onto something with like the particular way that this reflects poorly on Carney. It hits him where he lives in that. Live by the sword, die by the sword. He's benefited by the fact that unlike Polyev, who we have decades of vetting, like decades of public...
Scrutiny, decades of decisions, decades of stupid things. He said, we have to learn who Carney is in a very short way. We haven't seen his judgment at play. We're told he's got a great resume. We're told in this other. In these other venues of economics, he's done great things. But in this venue, he's really benefited from like, well, he looks like a guy who'd have good judgment. He looks like a guy who would be principled.
And like a dad who would make the tough call, but the right call. And you don't want to extrapolate too much from like the first time we've had to see him make a tough call, but we don't have a lot else to go on. I don't think that you can, for instance, guide the Bank of England through Brexit. and take the steps, including the public steps that he took and the measures that he took and have it say, well, we don't know if he has good judgment. And he guided the Bank of Canada.
through the global financial crisis, and he was there. We didn't necessarily see it close up, but I don't think you could say, well, it's only hearsay that he's got good judgment. We've never seen it. Well, political judgment. He's our prime minister.
Yeah. Right. I think we are all watching our prime minister to see if in this job and, you know, there's there's people who will say otherwise about his experience with Brexit. The conservatives who supported Brexit will say other things about his opposition. Well, not just that, but. Another episode, maybe, but this was the wrong call. I agree with you there that it contradicts the image that he's been writing so positively.
Does this have any further bearing? I'm with you on like this whole thing about Brookfield's debt to China feels like a real reach. Was that a sweetheart loan? Are you beholden to China? Absolutely not. But I'm not so sure that the wider context with China is separate from this story. No, I agree with that. Okay, so let's get into that because one of the things that I think that the next Prime Minister of Canada has to deal with is the reality of foreign interference in this country.
China just killed four Canadians, right? Ottawa says it strongly condemns the execution of multiple Canadians in China earlier this year over what Beijing says were drug-related crimes. Like, we have issues with this country. And one thing that the last government was guilty of was a... and a constant certainty that other people were overreacting to things like foreign interference. They knew better. Canadians can know that the integrity of our elections was not...
And when, when Carney gets up there and says. Well, I'm going to keep him around. Here's the direct quote. I view this as a teachable moment. That really feels like a Justin Trudeau. Like you are not getting this right. You are not taking this seriously enough and you are placing your own sense of reality above like actual reality here. And that's another ballot question. What is this guy's?
relationship with China, like everything, like, oh, it's all about Trump. Who's going to stand up to Trump? I don't know that there's that much to be done with Trump. We'll find out. We have to come to some new trade agreement, but then there's years of governance ahead beyond that. And China plays a big role in that.
After the break, we will talk more about why Canada's future includes China, whether we like it or not. This episode is brought to everybody by PolicyMe. Sandy, if you could creatively invent a new type of insurance. What? Let's say you could invent a new insurance product that would give people insurance over something that they have no insurance over. What would it be? Perhaps there's some way you can insure yourself again.
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It's P-O-L-I-C-Y-M-E, policyme.com. Go check them out today. Sandy, this episode is brought to our listeners by Fizz. I'm going to play a little game with you called fill in the blanks. Cell phone plans in Canada are? Oh.
Too much. You know, if you just sworn for three minutes, I could have forgiven you there. I have been impressed with Fizz. They're a different kind of cell phone provider for Canadians. It's completely digital. You don't even need to wait for your SIM card. They have eSIMs that work on most phones. I set up a SIM card online with Fizz. It was seamless.
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of added value features. That's fizz.ca, F-I-Z-Z.ca. Activate a first plan using the referral code CAN25, C-A-N-25. You'll get 25 bucks off and 10 gigs of free data, phys.ca, referral code, C-A-N-25. You are hosting a show that has a lot to do. with China in the new world order. And I'm curious when you said, yes, there is a wider relevance, what came to mind for you? There will be no ignoring China in the future for Canada.
There are three major trading blocks in the world. COSMA, the USMCA, the European trading block, and then there is an Asian trading block. These are the largest trading blocks in the world. There is no ignoring them, especially those of us who live in urban centres. We want to see Canada. as a manufacturing center, as a vibrant sort of urban hub services, professional services, but we are a resource superpower. There's no question about it. And I think we have underplayed that.
whether it's fertilizer or potash, which is a massive, massive resource that Canada has. whether it's oil and gas, which will be a continuing pillar of our economy for decades to come. or natural gas or minerals and mining. This is a huge asset and wealth of this nation and one of the largest buyers on the planet. is China. It's impossible for us to ignore it.
At the same time, they are going to try and interfere in our elections. They try and do this everywhere in the world. They don't make a point of like really picking on Canada. They are active. everywhere, as is Russia, as is India, and by the way, as is the United States. So navigating these waters is going to be very, very treacherous. There's no ignoring them. We're going to have to deal with them. The incoming prime minister is going to have to deal with them and cannot take.
a pugilistic stance with them, but must hold them at a distance and must be able to both deal with them and resist. them and oppose them when they're overstepping. And Canadians have no tolerance. No tolerance. So it's going to be a difficult file. And the other aspect of this that I think is going to be very important.
in particular for Carney, if he is elected. It's going to be important for either of the major candidates if they're elected because we are such an oil and gas dependent economy. But China is driving the most... incredible and massive shift to renewable energy and the transition economy. And they are doing that at a staggering pace. And we are. within 10 or 15 years, going to be facing the impact of that new energy on our markets. And Mark Carney knows this file extremely well.
Pauliev is going to try and say, well, you're just a climate stop and you're just all about shutting down the oil sands and shutting off Canadian interests. But there is going to be... in the coming years, no ignoring the new economy of renewable energy. And Carney knows it, and so does Pollyoff. He knows it as an investor from his experience with Brookfield. He doesn't want to talk about it. He knows it more from his role as the head of the Bank of...
England because when the UK and China co-chaired the G20 in 2015, China made their move to renewable. This was the year also of the Paris Accord. And China made their transition to renewable energy and the concept of the world transitioning. to clean energy, a cornerstone of that G20. And the chief economist for The Chinese Central Bank and the Bank of England cooperated significantly on building the financial infrastructure.
that will support the transition. And Mark Carney then went on in the years following that. to form a major association. of private equity and fund managers that were agreeing to contribute significant resources and investment into the transition economy. So it's not just Brookfield asset management. The commitment goes much deeper and is far more sophisticated than that.
Fair enough, though we don't know about. Brookfield, my understanding is, does have billions of dollars in various parts of energy. both green and fossil. And we don't have full information about when we're trying to determine which is the most significant attachment or familiarity with the file. We don't know to what extent his personal finance.
are bound up in this and in which direction. There's a level of disclosure that we're going to get after the election. I do hope that journalists do start to inquire and inform themselves about not just... the billions of Brookfield asset management, but the trillions of dollars that are going into the transition economy, the massive, massive investment. I mean, this is... Very minor. Brookfield is a small player in that whole thing, and Carney's own personal.
fortunes would be i would assume that brookfield also has holdings in the oil and gas sector as well my understanding is that they do all of this is to say that The keyword Trump. when associated with Kearney, has played very well for Kearney. But words like China have been political liabilities and places where he's attacked by Polyev. Words like environmentalism and green energy are things he does not want to see next to his name in newspapers.
And when it comes to trade for these reasons, you know, headlines about his finances and his obligations and where he stands to benefit, that's not going to work out well for him. That's a point of attack for Polyev. Those are all things that a Canadian voter needs to know about where Mark Croney stands on.
When asked, here's what he told Fife and Chase over the Globe and Mail. Mark Carney rejects boosting trade ties with China, points to Europe. Is that credible? Is the next prime minister of Canada not going to... Well, it's not just trade ties with China. It's trade ties with Asia generally. I'm sitting here on the west coast of Canada.
I think that the Port of Vancouver might be the largest port in Canada, and our shipping goes to Asia. It is a massive, massive market that Western Canadians know really well, the Indo-Pacific strategy. is a key foreign relations issue for Canada. And to be fair, he did say there are partners in Asia with whom we can build deeper ties, but the partners don't include China. There are partners in Asia.
But the partners in Asia that share our values don't include China. There's certain activity that we could have with China. We obviously do have a large amount of trade with them, but we have to be very careful, very deliberate. and they need to meet Canadian standards. It's interesting that South Korea and Japan just joined together for a tariff response with China for a tariff response to Trump. There is going to be no ignoring China, but yes.
I guess people can say what they want to say in a campaign. But there's no credibly ignoring China. And Europe is a major market. It's a very mature market. And the other thing that I've gone into in detail in my Mortal Giants podcast is the importance of Mexico in all of this. and how I think that we're really undervaluing.
the strategic value and leverage of Mexico. I feel like there are just like some domestic liabilities for Carney that are preventing us from having a robust conversation about the real issues that the next prime minister is going to have to address. And he's got to find a way around these minefields. The risk here is that the Liberal Party has not been great. Like, it's just so fuzzy. What is this future you're projecting? I can't get my head around it.
And the track record is fuzzy because, you know, look at like Han Dong, who initially, Chinese interference, it seems pretty damn clear in getting him installed as the candidate. Then initially, he's a great man. We stand by him. Han Dong. is an outstanding member of our team. and suggestions that he is somehow not loyal to Canada. should not be entertained.
And then he's like sidelined and like, oh, he's going to just kind of step down while he defends his name. We fully accept that he is stepping away from the liberal caucus in order to vigorously contest these allegations. And then just the other day, we find out from Handong that under Mark Carney, they're not really interested in running Handong again. So like...
What are you saying? Were you infiltrated and you can't have Handong because you were compromised? What happened? This is one of the things, Jessie, that I think is so, so difficult. There's the Chinese interference side to this. And the liberals have not done a good job, and Trudeau did an especially bad job. And I really would like to see Mark Carney. a step forward and really make the case the economic case the national security case
for getting into the transition economy because it's huge. Electric power, globally, renewable. energy comprised 30% of the world's electrification in the last year. China has now plateaued on their emissions because of their transition to this economy. This is not, oh we're all going to freeze in the dark because we don't have oil and gas anymore.
Renewable electric sources, wind and solar, are now cheaper. The new installation overwhelmingly that is happening around the world, and this includes India, the new installed electrified power. By an overwhelming majority, the world is shifting to that, and there is money in it, there is value in it, there are jobs. Why Danielle Smith kneecapped the renewable energy wind and solar program? I think there were billions of dollars that were going to go into Alberta over that, which she kneecapped.
that we are losing, losing by the day, the opportunity to participate in that economy, to profit from it, and to pivot. a critical, strategic resource, because we are going to see this transition. And I'm old enough now to know that 50 years will go by in a heartbeat. an absolute heartbeat, and we have to be ready for this. I would love to see Mark Carney make that case, which I thought Justin Trudeau did an absolute failure of it. So it bothers me to see this all get tied up with...
Well, if you're for green energy, then you're kind of, does this have to do with China infiltrating your political and political interference? There's something much bigger going on. And we have a strategic interest. and putting this before the Canadian people, not as this soft, fuzzy, oh, just a carbon tax, you've got to axe the tax, this is against Canadian interests. but really to make an opportunity. Just go look at what's happening in Texas.
Texas right now, which is the North American leader in installing solar and wind and they're making billions and billions of dollars on it. So, like, we've got to get into this game and we need political leaders. that can actually put this before the Canadian people, not as a we've got to stop everything and stop oil and gas and be against everything, but we have to move into the future.
And sadly for Canada, sadly for our political world, the driver of that right now is China. So this is a complicated issue. This is an urgent appeal from the Disasters Emergency Committee. Powerful earthquakes in Myanmar have caused devastation and the death toll continues to rise. Survivors urgently need medical care, food, clean water and shelter. DEC charities are on the ground, saving lives right now. But they need more funds. Visit dec.org.uk to donate or text DEC to 70727 to give £10.
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Sandy, we duly note stories that maybe could use more attention than they're getting. What do you have to duly note today? Well, one of the things that I was noting was those prominent Yale academics. the author of the On Tyranny book, and two other senior Yale academics that have now joined the University of Toronto. And I noticed also that This American Life was featuring the story of Ranjani. Srinivasan, who is a doctoral student at Columbia, whose student visa was revoked.
and suspended as part of a fallout of the protests that Colombia and Xi has fled to Canada. I have heard anecdotally of American physicians, more than one, who are making plans to move to Canada. And I'm just noting these stories and wondering, are we going to see an influx of... scientists, academics, professionals. I keep talking about how old I am. I'm old enough to remember the draft dodgers in the 60s that came and really had a huge impact.
on Canadian life and a huge impact on our culture. And I really wonder if we're about to see something. You know, the last time during the first Trump administration, people said that they were going to leave and then didn't. But I think that the kind of pressures that we're seeing on universities in the United States just now and other institutions, I think we might be on the cusp of something and it could be a real opportunity. I just hope we can find a way to house.
to house people or to receive them and find a good way to bring them into the fold if they come. Yeah, I had a look at that too. And it's cool to think that Canada could be a place where the best and the brightest who are, I think, legitimately concerned about the growing tyranny in the United States might come here. Bring up some really concerning things that I share concern about what's going on on American campuses where very clearly.
People are facing the full power of the state based on their exercising their freedom of speech. And I don't care about where you stand on these issues. anti-intellectual is an egregious violation of civil liberties and it's a real scary warning sign to the extent that we're hearing like that echoed in some of what the plans are for the conservatives here in Canada it's really concerning so
I want to duly note just the continued erosion of press rights in this country. And I just hate how the courts just don't seem to understand, like, what is necessary for a free press to function. This is a CBC story. Winnipeg journalist must hand over interview with father of man accused in mass shooting. So, city news reporter Morgan Majewski must give city police access to the raw footage.
of an interview he did with the father of an alleged shooter. And the court said, well, it wasn't a confidential. So therefore, this isn't going to be any problem for press freedom. Once again, I feel like there's been like 40 times where this concept, I've explained it, you know, I don't know. Everybody listening to the show must know it by now. The judge doesn't seem to understand it. And that concept is that if our raw material.
are subject to police seizure that could be used against people in the courts, people won't talk to us. We just become an arm of law enforcement. And apparently this is just a completely symbolic thing. The lawyer for this journalist said that all of the information that's relevant to the case...
was aired, of course. If he had anything good, he'd put it in the broadcast. The police will be disappointed with the raw tape. It's just a precedent. It's just something that makes it impossible for me to say. When I'm working out terms with a source and saying, well, what are you going to use? What are you not going to use? Why do you want to talk to me? I cannot say to them that this. I can't say that because I don't know that I might be forced to hand that stuff.
But hasn't that always been the case, Jesse? It's always been the law that you could be forced by a court order to hand things over. And generally speaking, as I understand. You express to sources that things can be off the record or they can be not for attribution or they can be entirely confidential sources, background only. There's all these different... Journalists do tell sources that if ordered by a court, I will be forced.
to hand this over. The question is, the live question, and we have a charter of rights that goes into this issue. No rights are absolute. There's always a balancing act that goes on. I hope that this case is appealed and an appellate court, a senior court, can take a look at this, shed some light on it. But I don't know that this is a real change from existing law. It's always been the case that the court could order you to hand over materials. That is accurate.
counselor, but I will say in my defense that Sandy, dear listener, is of course a former Crown attorney who places me out of my depth with regularity. No, my understanding of this is that it's absolutely true that technically there is no absolute... protection for sources in canada but uh what do you what do y'all lawyers call it jurisprudence case law like just like there's like trends precedent precedent
I have been aware of an erosion of, in practice, because the courts do recognize, okay, if this had been a confidential source, I'd look at this differently. There's a spectrum of protection that the courts afford journalists. when it comes to whether or not they're going to demand this stuff. It seems like they do understand that it's meaningful when we force you to hand over your stuff. And there are circumstances where we would be hesitant to do so. It's like a search warrant.
You have to go and get a court order that allows the intrusion into private materials. So in an instance like this... I guess why I feel like this is worth duly noting is to document. the increased frequency and the increased incursions where it just seems like the court. respect for what we do and the parameters is eroding so it's true i would never and i have never said oh don't worry under no circumstance will this get out but i used to be able to say well
So technically it's possible that I would have to hand this over to a court, but that like almost never happens. That's how I used to put it. And I don't say that. resources because I am, I'm aware of these stories popping up. I haven't done any kind of data analysis of this, but like, it's, it seems like it's getting more normal that like, yeah, maybe you will have to have.
It is a huge concern. It's a huge concern for sources. I think this is going to be an increasing area of scrutiny and concern about protection. So duly noted. Sandy, that is our show for today. Thank you for joining me. I can be emailed about today's show at jesse at CanadaLand.com. I read everything you send. You can also find me posting on Blue Sky. Sandy, where can people find you?
Best place is just to follow the Immortal Giants podcast. I am out of social media. I am gone. Good for you. I can be reached at jessie at canadaland.com. I read everything that is sent in that email address. This episode was produced by James Nicholson. Mixing and mastering by Caleb Thompson. Our director of audio is Max Collins. Our fact check is by Sam Connert.
I am the editor and publisher of Canada Land. This episode of Canada Land is brought to you by our supporters, Daryl Nadeau, Grant Bashand, and Mary Talbot. And those are three people who I work for. We work for, I mean, like, here's the thing. When you're a journalist, you like to think, We work for the public. That's a very hazy notion. At Canadaland, we work for, like, very specific people, and...
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Canada Land is proud to be a media partner of the Hot Docs Festival. I'm so happy that it's back. This is like the world's greatest documentary festival and it's right here in Toronto. from April 24th to May 4th. Go watch a feature documentary in a theater. And watch them before you can watch them anywhere else. Go buy your tickets now. Packages and single tickets are on sale at hotdocs.ca slash festival. H-O-T-D-O-C-S dot C-A slash festival. I'll be there.
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That's why at Médecins Sans Frontières, we don't waste any time. We're working in more conflict zones than you may be aware of, giving everything to give people a chance. Just £30 will keep our life-saving work going. Please help us save more lives. Because with trauma care, every second counts. You can buy us vital time. Please give just £30. search MSF Care or call 0800 055 7989. That's 0800 055 7989. Thank you. Hello, it's Ellie and Helen here from the Scummy Mummy's Pop...
And we're sponsored by Kinder Surprise. We absolutely love that Kinder values little moments of play, knowing they mean so much for kids and their development. A Kinder Surprise is such a fun little moment for the kids, isn't it? Oh, I couldn't agree more because it's more than just chocolate, isn't it? a treat, it's a discovery and it's a great opportunity.
play and with the at play do app co-developed with oxford department of education the fun continues as the toys come to life that's right i love that my kids can learn about baby animals with kinder surprises natoons baby animal toy range and enjoy educational digital play. It's the perfect combo of fun learning and a delicious treat.