Welcome back to part two of Thomas Paine. In the last episode, we were just finishing the story about how a mis-marked X on a door barely saved. Thomas Payne. From a trip to the guillotine. We also talked about common sense. A significant document in American history that United the people and made them wonder, Hey. Maybe we should be fighting for Liberty. In the next episode, he's going to finish his story about nearly being executed.
He'll discuss his relationship with Benjamin Franklin, Napoleon, George Washington, and how his path crossed with so many of these giants of history and midway through we'll uncover why he came to America at all, which certainly wasn't dumb luck. It was the brilliance of someone else, someone who was recruiting talent for America.
And at one point They decided that it was time for me to be executed, so , that part of the operation they came through the prison, putting big X marks on the doors as they went by. Well, the door to my cell was pushed back against the wall because it was open because , the guard and I were having a conversation. And when the, um, came around to mark my door as being someone who would be executed the next day, they marked the door.
But then when he closed the door at the end of our conversation, the mark was on the inside and not visible from the hallway. So they passed me up. And I was not executed. I don't really believe in miracles, but it felt a little like that. , just because the door had been opened, that I was spared having my head severed. And this was during the time, if I understand right, I think you were imprisoned in 1793. So if I have my dates right, this is right in the middle.
of the reign of terror where everybody's getting their heads cut off. Is that right? That's right. That's right. And it didn't really as you probably know, for some reason it was decided that executing somebody with a guillotine rather than an axe was more scientific and less fearful and so on.
I can't imagine because what they do is they strap you down and they lie you down with your head sticking out through a, not exactly a hole, but a sort of like a an opening, a stock with the stocks, , you have the board below your head and the board above your head to keep you locked in place. Well, the top part. Of course, it's where the guillotine blade comes down. And and it's supposedly more humane than having a man with an axe cutting your head off.
I'm not so sure about that, but I didn't have to experience either one. , the kinder. More gentle way to lose your head. It was supposedly a more scientific and therefore I suppose they thought since it was more scientific, it was more humane. Oh, it doesn't seem that way. I didn't exactly face it, but I know lots of people did.
And the other part, of course, that was horrible was that it became a show and people would gather around The gallows, it was a different kind of gallows than if you're being hanged, but around the gallows and they would all be cheering and, goodness knows, egged on by, by having pints to drink while they were standing around. , not at all what I, Consider any sort of civilized behavior.
It's very different if you're a soldier and you're charging into battle and the fact that you might get shot is not necessarily a guarantee that your head will be cut off. Whereas with a guillotine, your head is going to be cut off, , sometimes the axeman would make a mistake and would miss and just cut part of your neck or something. But not the guillotine. . , so it's incredible luck that they pass you by and it would've been nothing.
'cause so many people were probably being beheaded that day. It would've been just no big deal. You'd just been one of the 50 or a hundred or 10 or whatever. But even you had to get That's right. Eventually you had to get outta prison. So how did you get outta prison, ? Well, how I got outta prison finally. And remember I was only there for 10 months. I was not there for years.
Gouverneur Morris had been the agent from America, the ambassador, I guess he was called, and he wasn't very happy about it all, and he wanted to go home, and so he was brought America, and James Monroe was sent , in his place, and James Monroe actually knew me a little bit, And knew , that I was in danger and was able to get me released. . So it was not really my doing except that Monroe and I knew each other. Which might be luck again that he happens to get that position. That's right.
I had nothing to do with that. I would have suggested that Gouverneur Morris be sent back to America and somebody else be brought in his place. But because he obviously. Morris didn't care a bit for people like me. In fact, at one point, I think I may have said this already he he took a dislike into me because I didn't even speak the King's English. That, oh, that's how that's where that came about. What does he mean by the King's English? Well, my, my language isn't polished.
It not polished for the aristocrats or is it just more of a common tongue? That's right. It's more of a, it's more of a common tongue. , there, there are people who are of a certain status often get trained to speak in some fancy way. The man who had the most impact on the way I speak was my father.
Because when he was working and I was there trying to help him and trying to learn being a stay maker we would talk and he would tell me important things or things he thought were important for me to know as his son. And he would tell me lots of things about the Quakers and that sort of thing. And that it's what created the way I speak. Let me ask you something about Quakers. The Quakers are deeply religious people, aren't they?
Well, yes and no. I mean, I think it's like many other groups that some are more embedded in the practice of being whatever sort of religious person you are. The, a big difference is that the Quakers tended to be people who were of lower fatness in society, perhaps , the least of the Quakers in terms of that sort of thing was William Penn, who was the son of a man also named William Penn, who was the admiral or became the admiral of the British Navy.
Now, this was long before I was born and William Penn got a proper education, although he got into trouble when he started to become a Quaker, his father was not a Quaker his father was the Admiral of the British Navy, and in fact, the two of them had a kind of a fallen out when William Penn, the younger went to his father to present his sword, he decided , he wanted not to be a gentleman's son. , he wanted to be a good quaker.
And so he wanted to be rid of his sword and , he tried to convince his father to take the sword. And I don't remember the outcome of that , it's considerably before my time. But . He was a much more polished fellow than anybody else I continue to see a trend in the, , the trajectory of your life. And so the American revolution needs to take place. And so common sense needs to be there. And then the soldiers need to be inspired and the American crisis is written by you.
And then the And remember you, you keep seeing the American crisis and that was the overall title of, I believe it was 16 different pamphlets written at different times. Pamphlets. Okay. Those 16 pamphlets. Okay. That's good to know. Okay, good.
And then we have the Rights of Man, which plays a role in the French Revolution, and so now, basically, what has happened is you've conquered the American Revolution, the French Revolution takes place, you even do time in jail for this and almost lose your head, and now it's time to write the Age of Reason, and it, unless I'm reading this wrong, This is another document that you've written that is challenging authority, but the age of reason is challenging.
The authority of religion or God, isn't it? Am I wrong on that? It is a treatise. On the difference, difference, human beings, intellectual abilities and their belief systems, which I suppose is a way of saying their religion. And as we know, different religions have very different belief systems. Quakers tend to have a belief that all humans are equal, and this includes women, which is important, in the eyes of God.
No. Amongst human beings themselves, there are some very strong differences and the Quakers weren't necessarily as interested as others in, , for example allowing People of all status and gender to vote, but the main point that I was trying to make in The Age of Reason is that an awful lot of what is claimed to be some kind of history is not history. It's just, it's a sort of mythology. And a lot of people don't want to hear that, they say, but it's in the Bible, so it must be true.
Well, I was forced by my mother to memorize a lot of the Bible when I was in prison. In fact, I started writing The Age of Reason and I did not have to rely on. Having a copy of the Bible, goodness knows, I probably would have gotten a French one, and that wouldn't have done me any good. I Could remember many of the passages that my mother had pushed me to memorize when I was a lad. And so I used that.
To begin to wrestle with the fact that we have these beliefs that may or may not be , the truth. Now, Quakers often talk about the truth, and the truth is not necessarily the truth. The same as intellectual truth, it may be some other kind of truth. But my purpose was to say don't allow yourself to be fooled by things that aren't really so.
And there are parts of the Bible that, for example, the book of Moses was not actually written by Moses as we can tell today, although some people don't believe it. They say, Oh, but it must be, but there are contradictions. If you read it fairly closely, you can see that it could not have been written by Moses because Moses was at a different time than the time. That's being discussed in that particular part of that book.
Is it your contention , that church and the Bible itself is , all created by man? It's a construct of man? Basically, yes. And that we allow ourselves to have some of our own ability to think about things taken away from us because we decide that what we're reading in this book are the real thing. As compared to the reality that we all live in life. So, do you think that this is just a form of propaganda?
That kings and queens and educated people are using to control the masses, or how do you see that? Well, I suppose you could say that, that it is kind of a mythology forced upon. People who ought to know better.
They allow themselves to be convinced in one way or another, and of course, one way of convincing them is to I suppose the word is indoctrinate them when they're young, just as my mother tried to indoctrinate me to realize that the Bible was the truth, whereas my father Had a different take on the truth because not everything in the Bible is something that the Quakers care about. Do they pick and choose a little bit?
People of all different sorts of sects and branches , in this case, Christianity, have different Points of view on what is real and what is perhaps a made up story. , many people seem to believe even thoughtful Quakers accept , that Jesus was God. It gets very confusing, and as a child, I found it very confusing that, you've got, God, you've got Jesus, and you've got the Holy Spirit, and that's three different parts of one thing that we call divinity or something.
, as far as I'm concerned, it's not very useful in our living. So it seems like you clearly don't believe in the Bible, and you don't maybe necessarily believe in the church, but do you believe in God in some fashion? I guess I don't worry about it so much. . I find that an awful lot of what is taught in religion is a way of controlling people. And , it's not something that I'm interested in. Because I don't want to control anyone.
I want to encourage people to think about things in certain ways. And if they agree with me, that's fine. And if they don't, then we have an argument, and that's fine too. I'm going to guess that this feeling of not, being controlled or controlling other people. Certainly that would be popular with a lot of people, freedom in general. But I'm going to guess questioning the church did not win you a lot of friends. Is that correct? That's right. That's right.
In fact, It was one of the things that once I came back to America, I was fearful that some of the people who were more religious, than I would, in effect, disown me Because of my, a, not a religious person. Did that happen? Yeah, well, one of the people we had some exchange of communication. One was John Adams. He was very upset that I was trying to for some reason, the expression, turn over the apple cart of religion.
Okay. And He was not, well, remember, he came into religion from a fairly I wouldn't say necessarily that he was a Puritan, but it was fairly strict reading of, as though it were truth of the Bible in a way that, that even Quakers don't do, because there's a lot in the Bible that Quakers are not interested in. They don't believe in miracles. The Quakers don't. Okay. So let's talk about some of these people. You had mentioned John Adams.
You were rubbing elbows with some very important people throughout your life. Even though , some people were not really happy about, , these beliefs that you have in God and the church and such. You're listed as a founding father. And I think that you're the most founding of the founding fathers. Without you, there's a lot of stuff I don't think that happens. And you were rubbing elbows, like I said, with John Adams. And you had mentioned George Washington. You'd mentioned Dr. Franklin.
I feel like he's driving you all over the world. He tells you to come to America, you come to America. He tells you to go to France, you go to France. . Well, he didn't tell me to go to France. I, that was my own decision. Well, yes, you're right. To get approval from the French Academy , from my bridge. But he was more focused on that for me than. And for some other reason he was trying to help me have the wherewithal to build the bridge. Let's talk about him for a minute.
Your relationship with Dr. Franklin. What was that relationship? , were you and him friends? Well,, he was a lot older than I. As you remember , I think he was the oldest of the people we think of as relating to the revolution and the declaration of independence and the constitution and all that. He was sort of the father or grandfather of everyone else in a way. Not everybody got along with him.
Necessarily but he was respected partly because , he was a person who cared about other people and , he convinced himself that he needed to be a gentleman in life. And so he went , from being a suppose the phrase might be a ragamuffin or so when he arrived in Philadelphia. , as I recall, he didn't even necessarily have any shoes and he had to buy loaf of bread for a penny and wandered around munching on the loaf of bread and trying to figure out what to do in this city called Philadelphia.
He made a real name for himself. , not only was he a printer , which was not something his father was interested in him becoming, his father wanted him to follow in the the candle making business, which is what his father did. , Franklin was much more interested in the idea of shared thinking, and one of the best ways of doing that is to print things.
And it's interesting that at the time when I was looking for someone to print common sense, I didn't go to Franklin, and one of the reasons was that he had sort of stopped being printer, , and he was trying, at first, to convince the British that they should treat the colonies better. And that turned out to be a failure, and he wasn't able to do that.
And so that's why eventually the revolution started because , he wasn't able to convince people around the king to behave properly toward the colonists. A lot of the wealth of the British came from the colonies, raw materials trees and cotton, . And , they wanted all the things that America had to offer. And often were not willing to pay more than they were willing to pay, which meant that people either got nothing or were underpaid depending on circumstances.
Well, I'll tell you what I'm wondering though. I'm wondering what, okay, so you're in England and prior to 1774 and the American Revolution is, , simmering, hasn't quite taken off yet. And Benjamin Franklin requests that you come to the United States. I'm just wondering why he contacts you, , He did not contact me. What happened was, we had met when I was just off the King of Prussia ship with money in my pockets and I was able to go to lectures and do interesting things.
And I ran into Dr. Franklin he was quite interested in me. He thought that I would be able to do some useful things in America if I were to go there. And so I knew no one really in America. He wrote a letter. To his son in law, Richard Bate, who got me established and got me connected actually with the printing people who were there and active in Philadelphia. Franklin was not there. He was in England at the time. And so I was able to make contact.
Through Franklin , because he gave me a letter of introduction on the ship across to America. , I don't know what it was, but I was almost on my deathbed by the time we arrived in Philadelphia. And when I, tried to figure out what to do with this almost dead body. They went through my pockets and so on and found this letter from Franklin, and , whoever it was on the ship, said, this fellow knows Franklin. We best tried to keep him alive if we can.
And they sent for a doctor who was able to help me heal. And, but it took me weeks to feel like myself again, and I was able begin to establish myself in Philadelphia. Franklin was not there yet. arrived , in the spring, , I arrived at the end of 74, and he arrived in the spring of 75. He must He must have encouraged you and wrote that letter because he saw talent in you. That's right. You'd mentioned a minute ago, the declaration of independence.
And , in our time, there's a known copy of the Declaration of Independence, which, by the way am I right to say that you did not sign the Declaration of Independence? Oh, not at all. No, because , I was not at all involved I wrote Common Sense, and Common Sense sort of set in motion this idea of discussing the idea Of separating oneself from a monarchy , and , perhaps having a revolution through common sense.
The declaration was written by the writing committee of the Congress, which I had no part in at all. , that raises my question because there is a copy of the Declaration of Independence that I believe that one time was in the hands of John Adams and I may be mixing this up, but on the back of it, it says something like , this approved or a version of this from T P. And there are a lot of people that think that is Thomas Paine. ? So you didn't have anything to do with that?
No, I'm unaware of that document. Well, then we're going to have to figure out who TP is. Well, I don't know. Perhaps you can find out.
Okay. , there were quite a number of people who had, Different ideas about who wrote Common Sense since I didn't put my name on it and people were saying, well, it must have been written by Franklin or by Benjamin Rush , , as I said earlier, Benjamin Rush who had gotten in trouble writing something earlier was a little loathe to, alienate some of his other patients and friends as he had done before so it ended up falling to me , to do it.
I said, well, I can write and I've been listening to all the discussions you've been having. And so I think I can do it and uh, did. So let's talk about Washington for a minute, General Washington. Yes. . It appears to me that in your first engagements with him that you maybe felt one way about Washington and that changed over time. Can you tell me about that relationship? , Washington was very much aware that I wrote Common Sense. And as far as I know, he'd read it.
And it's one of the reasons why he asked me to write something inspiring for the troops to be read before they crossed the Delaware to attack the Hessians in, Trenton. I did that at his request the part that starts out, These are the times that try men's souls. I was trying to make it as powerful as I could at the beginning. You may be aware that the beginning of common sense doesn't sound like that at all. It's not a, clarion call for people to gather around.
, it doesn't stir the heart quite as much. As These are the times that try men's souls. , I wanted to make sure that Washington was pleased with my efforts. Did your feelings about Washington change later though? They did indeed. And the reason was that while I was moldering in prison in France and Gouverneur Morris was not paying any attention to my state not that he cared I thought that Washington knew that I was in prison and that he was doing nothing to help me.
Not as though that I'd done nothing for America and for the revolution . So I was quite perturbed that he was simply ignoring me in prison. Well, he didn't even know that I was in prison. And I think he didn't know until James Monroe came and took over as the ambassador to France. And I'm sure that then James Monroe told Washington that I was in fact in prison. But I didn't know any of that at the time.
And I ended up writing a very hostile letter to General Washington because I thought he'd simply ignored my plight. He apparently didn't even know that I was in prison though. I'm not sure why I would think that he would know. From the French point of view, I wasn't anybody special, really.
But I was part of the revolution, , and I was on the wrong side at the time, so the other side decided they'd make a martyr of me, or whatever the right word is, it's not really a martyr, because a martyr is a good thing, supposedly. But I was not interested in being a martyr at all. That letter about Washington was a scathing letter, and I'm just wondering it seems like arguing the opposite point of people's religious beliefs and then maybe attacking the most popular person in America.
I'm going to guess that was not very popular either.. It was a letter just to Washington. , it wasn't something that I published or anything. Oh, that wasn't published? I didn't publish it. Now, somebody may have. I didn't. , I sent the letter to Washington and I presume that he read it. Okay. So what about Napoleon? Did you spend time with Napoleon?
Well, I suppose spending time with him is not quite the right word but in the early days of Napoleon , He had not declared himself emperor, which he did finally. And that was the end of that. , I decided that he was not somebody I wanted to have anything to do with. But I, for a time I was trying to help him think about how to invade Britain , because he didn't have any success doing that himself.
I knew something about the lay of the land in England, and I knew something about how ships might work in that area, and I tried to help think about how could Napoleon and his armies seize the British Isles as soon as I realized how much he was interested in becoming the head of state instead of just being, , a general or something. I realized that I didn't want to have anything to do with him, so I stopped., I didn't get in trouble with him for that, by the way.
, I have read that Napoleon said at one point that there should be a gold statue of you erected in every city in the world based on what you wrote in the rights of man. Well, that might be, earlier on than when I started realizing what sort of person he was. So are you an Englishman? Well, it depends on who's talking about it. , definitely don't sound like most Americans that I know. So I suppose I am, but the British don't want me. I had to, eventually, flee from Britain.
In fact a friend of mine, sort of a friend warned me that the British were going to come and capture me and throw me in prison because I was , a spy for France or something like that. , I definitely was not a spy for France. I had written The Rights of Man and it was about why the French Revolution was a good idea. So, what year is it in your time right now? 1802. So are you planning on staying where you are right now? In France right now?
No, I need to get back to a place where I can understand all the language going on around me. France is not it. . And the British do not welcome me back. I'm still an outlaw for the British. So I really can't go there, which is a big disappointment because my parents are still, although quite old, are still alive. And I would love to be able to see them, but I don't think I should risk that. So what are you expecting when you go back to the United States?
Are you expected to get a positive reception? Well, I don't really know. I know there are people who are, who really are not interested in talking to me or seeing me. Adams being one of them. Not that he and I were ever very close, but we had some communication and he had some nice things to say about common sense early. He changed his mind later and decided that nothing that I did was Very helpful to the revolution or anything else.
, it seems to me that Adams, John Adams, would be the first person to get behind you. Because John Adams liked to stir things up, , with good ideas. And you had a lot of really good ideas. Well, he came from a very sort of strict religious point of view and That really changed his idea about me. I don't think he'd even really thought about religion I might be or whatever. Not something I talk about a lot.
I did write about it in The Age of Reason but , it's not been one of my, just appreciate everything that you've done and your opinions, you have so many great ideas and there's one problem that is certainly still looming in America and that in your time and that is slavery and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that or if you have maybe a solution? Oh, I wish I had a solution.
Unfortunately, the way that the Constitution got written and wrote out that whole part of the American experience, because slavery had been part of America well before since well before the founding of Philadelphia and back when New York was just a tiny little place and Boston was fairly large, but it was still, early. And the important things hadn't, , in terms of thinking about such things as
religion and, , what sort of government we ought to have that . It hadn't happened yet, , had it been possible to change the whole notion of keeping people in, in bondage. You might be aware that among others, there were some Quakers, but they . Were
originally from Germany, and they weren't originally Quakers, . They were Mennonites from Germany, and , some of them had become Quakers because Quakers were what was big in Philadelphia at the time, and in 1688, well before I was born, they wrote up a treatise calling for the abolition of slavery, and remember this was a group of Mennonites who had become Quakers and were connected to the, what Quakers called the monthly meeting up in the Germantown part of Philadelphia, and they wanted.
The other Quakers around, to call for the abolition of slavery. And they presented it and apparently the Quaker meeting in Philadelphia said, Oh, this is a very weighty topic and we're not sure that we're prepared to handle it.
So, let's send it to the quarterly meeting, which is the next step up in terms of how the Quakers work which is a conglomeration of other monthly meetings , and The quarterly meeting said, Oh, this is a very weighty topic and we're not sure we should try to deal with this. And they sent it on to the yearly meeting, which was the umbrella group for the whole of the Quaker community and in Pennsylvania and even in, into parts of Maryland and Delaware.
And , a committee of the yearly meeting , tried to deal with it. And that's where it ended. There was no action on it. So , that particular episode was important in some ways, but it did not arrive at any sort of, , we Quakers should all become abolitionists and not have slaves anymore. It's such a challenging topic. Nobody really wants to. To handle that fireball. They just want to keep passing it down.
Well, that even happened with the constitution itself, and the constitution discusses people who were held in bondage when it's talking about the number of, citizens that you can have. In a certain area and, but there's never any mention of slavery or black people or slaveholders , it's all sort of hidden in plain sight, but not named. You have this, the Constitution setting up a way of counting people that includes people who are held in bondage, but they don't count as full people.
I believe it's three fifths, three fifths of a person. I think hidden in plain sight is a perfect way to put that. . If people aren't willing to talk about it , out loud it's not going to be very successful, at least in the short term. I have one more question for you and sir, thank you so much for your time today. Oh, my pleasure. It's been very interesting to talk with somebody from someplace else in some way that I've never talked to anybody before. Well, I am so thankful for you.
Your writings , they just are so incredible to read, even at this time. My question is, so now the American Revolution is complete, and the country is establishing itself , how do you feel the way things are being run right now? . Well, I'm pleased that at the time, Jefferson is president. I think he's got a good head on his shoulders, unfortunately, , despite the fact that he had important things to say about the evils of slavery when he was younger, he seems to be moving away from that.
And not really focused on, well, what do we do about the issue of slavery? And he's not grappling with that. Which makes me feel very sad, and especially I understand that, One of his, , acquaintances who was , one of Washington's important generals , , who became quite excited about the idea of the abolition of slavery. Finally got paid after years and years.
. For his service during the active part of the revolution, and he wanted to have those funds to be put toward buying people who were in slavery, and then providing for them to be able to settle in Africa. I'm not sure how good an idea that is, but still, it was better than having them still in bondage. and he wanted Jefferson to carry this out and gave the money to Jefferson and Jefferson never did it.
So you're glad that Jefferson's running things, but at the same time, he's a flawed person like the rest of us, right? Well, of course., which is why I don't like the idea of Kings , I'm the king, so I know best, and so the rest of you should follow me. , and it's true for people at every level. Yeah. , I'm with you 100%. So, tell me this, How would you like people to see you or view you in the future?
Well, I suppose it would be nice to be thought of at least that I tried my best to do what I thought was best for people in society and people who are trying to find a way to live more peaceably and honestly with each other. Thank you. And if people can capture those ideas from what I wrote about I think I would be happy. I don't expect to live long enough to have everybody doing that though. Well, I think if you saw your reputation in our time, I think you'd be quite pleased.
Is there anything else that you'd like to add? Well, , for some reason, non at the back of my head, is the fact that I haven't brought up the subject of poetry and singing, both of which have been part of my life. When I was in school, I was most interested in poetry and in science.
Once before I guess I was in school, I was about seven or eight and I was wandering around just entertaining myself in the fields around our small town of Thetford, and I came across a bird , who clearly was not well. And I tried to help the bird, , regain his strength , but it was too late. And so he died and I picked him up and held him in my hand and thought, well, this is a life and what do we do when someone when their life ends what do we do?
And because of my mother, especially, I thought about, well, , you have a. funeral, and you sing a hymn, and perhaps you say a prayer, my mother did all of those things and I thought, well, all right, so what could I sing? And I thought about it for a bit, and I began to, I remembered a tune from one of the times, mostly I went with my father to the Quaker meeting but sometimes I went with her. To the Anglican church and I sang hymns. I thought, Oh, well, I should have a hymn.
So I looked down at the bird. It was a crow and I said, or sang here lies the body. I was a lad. Here lies the body of John Crow, who once was high, but now is low. Ye brother crows take ward in all, for as ye rise, so must ye fall. And then I dug a little hole and put him in it and had a silent prayer in my head about him. And, that was that.
Now later during the beginnings of the American revolution, I was inspired to write a poem, which actually turned out to be a song because I knew a tune that, that would go with the poem that I wrote.
And I won't try to sing that for you right now, but to say that it's not exactly great poetry, but it gets at the point about the liberty tree and the goddess of liberty descending from wherever the goddess of liberty descends from and platen this plant that she names the liberty tree and people all gather around the liberty tree and. And it's kind of a symbol of liberty and justice and those sorts of things. Singing in taverns was one of my favorite pastimes.
So, not necessarily as gentle a song as the crow song. You were always writing, whether it was poetry or whether it was one of these pamphlets that moved the world. You were always writing and always getting your word out, weren't you?, Or having arguments in taverns, which I also enjoyed. But in fact, for a while, , when I was in Lewis which is a town in the south of England, there was a club called the Headstrong Club.
And we would have debates, you might call them, arguments, but public arguments. And , you might find it interesting or not surprising, perhaps that fairly often I've won the debate. So I became. The the winner of the headstrong competitions. Well, I will tell you that I'm glad that you did win those debates because the truth is, your ideas were better and , they were Maybe that's why you won because your ideas were better. Mr. Payne I thank you so much for your time today.
And I wish you the best in the coming years. Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate your doing whatever magic you did to Of course you won those debates in the taverns. First of all, he was able to speak in a way that people could understand and he was persuasive. Second of all, Thomas Paine was a good man. He wasn't writing to get rich. His plan was to use those funds to buy mittens for the soldiers. He wasn't trying to hold someone down just the opposite.
He was trying to help people rise from underneath the tyranny of dictators in monarchs. He wanted people to think for themselves and make choices. About what they wanted to do with their lives, whether they were free or enslaved Thomas Paine's life was the definition of Liberty yet. Despite pain's enormous contribution. That is so obvious. Now, six people attended his funeral.
All the big wigs that he'd been hobnobbing with throughout his life, distanced themselves from him because of his controversial writings on religion that flew in the face of what everybody else believed. A few years before he died. John Adams wrote this. I could excuse everything to him, but his impedance. His common sense, which gave the first impression to this country in favor of independence was short, clear, and strong. But he was no politician.
He knew not the union of independence with government. He was as bad a reasoner . As he was a good writer. He was wholly destitute of judgment and sometimes of common sense. Thomas Paine's obituary stated . He had lived along, did some good and much harm. Yet as time passes history always looks clear in the review mirror, and it's hard to imagine what might not have happened without his words to unite the people and inspire the soldiers. As they say, the pen is more powerful than the sword.
But. It may be in this case that without the pen, maybe there would've been no sword. Thank you for listening. And don't forget that when you tell a friend about the calling history podcast. Uh, goldfish realizes it's actually a shark in disguise. I'm Tony Dean. And until next time I'm history.