Hey there it's Tony. Where's that guy it's usually right here, that, that guy with the perfect voice that does that wonderful intro. Well, the reason he's not on yet is because I wanted to say thank you for another great year of calling history. . We've had so many fantastic interviews and there's going to be more next year. This is the last one of this year. But next year we might be adding something different.
I don't think it will happen until about mid year, but some of these people may be having conversations. With each other, which could be very, very interesting, but you'll hear more about that. Next year until then. I just want to say thank you for all the people that sent money for this. I'm just kidding. Nobody's sending any money. Cause we didn't ask her any. But very seriously, this has been a lot of fun. And I'm excited to see who we get on the podcast next year. So this is it.
The next podcast will be. On Wednesday. January 1st, 2025. Happy holidays. And here's the guy Welcome back to part two of Eleanor Roosevelt. In the last episode, we learned that Eleanor is capable of doing good, regardless of the amount of criticism that she receives. We learned that president Roosevelt has a wandering eye and occasionally a wandering hand. And we learned that his mother was probably the scariest mother-in-law in history.
In this episode, Eleanor is going to tell the story of what caused the United nations to give her a standing ovation. She'll tell the story of how a group of airmen were unable to fly and fight in the war until she demanded that one of them take her for a ride. And then she's going to talk quite a bit about lesbians in the democratic party. So what happened after that?
Because now, , you have all these children and You guys were in love at some point, but now that situation seems fractured and yet you don't leave him which now I can see why this happens first of all It wouldn't be appropriate from the divorce. Sarah wouldn't allow it. She's gonna cut everybody off But also there's a connection because you know He's still always the guy that walks up to you when nobody else would, and you're both brilliant, and you have so much to give.
So does your relationship change there? Is it now a partnership instead of a marriage? It was absolutely a partnership, and a very effective partnership, and he always respected and trusted my choices and my input and my influence and very often he would joke. , he sometimes used, my presence or my influence to explain away something that he wanted to do politically anyway. If it was something that was generating disapproval, he would say, Well, I can't help it. You know my Eleanor.
Blame poor choices or any criticisms on me and it's something that we encouraged or something that we worked on together was a very great success and he would go and then he'd be proud and he said, well, you know my Eleanor and she gets things done and he always included me in very many of the decision making. And the private meetings and the strategies and such, he still trusted my opinion and my input.
And very often, as I said earlier, he was unable to always truly follow his heart because he was a politician who had to make sure that things that he proposed would actually make it through Congress and become law. And so he was sometimes restricted, but we had a remarkable relationship and it just also forced both of us to find a different kind of and I would say love, a different kind of love in other places.
And there's so many different kinds of love among friends, and among colleagues, and among married people. People that I still will always say that we truly did love each other. We just didn't love each other in the same way that married couples usually do. But we were very happy and concerned about each other. And when he passed, I said, the story's over. I said, all right, I'm no longer first lady. Now I will have nothing to do. I am going to move out of the white house.
And I almost felt like I had to give up everything. And I believe it was at Franklin's funeral when I met with the now president Truman. And he came up to me and he said, Mrs. Roosevelt, I'm so sorry for this great loss. What can we do for you? And I thought back, Madame Sinfestra, always make yourself useful. And I said, no. What, Mr. President, can I do for you? And I think he was a little taken aback by that because I don't think he knew what to do with me.
I have the reputation already of being a meddler and a troublemaker and such. , one time he suggested that I might want to consider being on his presidential ticket for reelection as vice president. And I don't feel to this day, no, if he was joking or if he was serious, but what he did do for me is he found me a new job. And after the war was over.
There was this wonderful organization called the United Nations, bringing all of the countries together as partners in order to preserve peace in this world. And it was very new, and he put me on a committee, it was Committee 3, I believe it had something to do with with social issues and such, and I think he was hoping that I could cause no trouble there, or any kind of controversy.
And yet, it was on that Committee 3 at the United Nations that I was able to work on what I truly feel is the greatest accomplishment, achievement in my life, and again, a privilege to be able to work on it, was to address the situation of refugees who had lost their homes and , their lives as they knew it, all of their security, their families, address the issue of refugees. And address the issue of the world working together as separate countries to maintain world peace.
And that we drafted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And that document, I believe that was 1948 when it was written and finally ratified and there was great resistance from the communist bloc countries who didn't want any part of this. This declaration that stated that it is not just Americans. That are entitled to life and liberty and pursuit of happiness. It isn't just Americans who are entitled to homes and to food and to medical care, but those rights are human rights.
God given rights for people all over the world. And if a country has the resources and the capability to share or to take care of or to protect the rights of others who are less able, it is our responsibility, to reach out and make sure that everyone on this planet enjoys those same natural rights, those same natural freedoms. And that is the work of which I truly am most proud. In fact, when I finally read that declaration in 1948, I even received a standing ovation from the United Nations.
And , you can't see my face right now, but I'm smiling with a very large smile because I am so proud that we were able to see that document through. And right now that Declaration of Human Rights has been the the basis for very many constitutions of newly arising nations all over the world. . Now, did you help write this document or did you just play a role in, , getting it ratified?
We definitely had a committee, but I did by far the most actual writing and the most advocating also to those who were skeptical about such a document coming into existence. So, no, I pretty much receive a lot of the credit for writing and for saying that this was ratified through careful negotiations and diplomacy. What are these human rights? Well, first of all, that it is the government's responsibility.
provide homes, and to make sure that everyone has enough to eat, that everyone has access to care, that another country does not have the right to invade another country and subjugate them. So it is basic human rights that entitled to anyone who's living in this world. To be treated fairly and to be insured of safety and protection and freedom and religious freedom as well.
It protects all of these countries against dictators and so I think that is why you see so often in, in this modern world criticism when the United States tries to help some of these countries that are suffering and are in need and aren't enjoying those same rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated that is our responsibility and we all signed that and agreed to that.
And yet, somehow the influence, the reputation of this document is It's a little bit now that we're in modern times and as we see the world is becoming more and more complicated and as much as we try to address some of these issues all around the world, some people feel that our resources too are somewhat limited. We can't always do everything that we know we need to do. So which are the countries in your time that were against this,
? Well, certainly Russia, the Soviet Union, wanted to have the right , to annex any kind of property or invade any kind of country that they saw was somehow entitled to them. So those would be some. There were also some African countries who were also against signing it because they were uh, corrupt monarchies or dictators and such, but mostly it was the eastern bloc. , those were the years leading into the cold war. And , communist influence was very strong.
And clearly their purpose was one to I believe included domination of Eastern Europe and maybe even beyond. sad to know that Russia has not shaken off that desire to invade and exploit human rights yet. Well, that's just truly breaks my heart I would have hoped that we would have learned our lessons by now and yet so often we see that history just continues to repeat itself and we continue to rather learn from our mistakes. We just seem destined to make them again and again.
Well, hopefully we'll figure it out at some point. Well, that's my prayer. Yeah, I want to ask you a question about Franklin for a second. So when I think about President Roosevelt, I think of him as a brilliant man. I think of him definitely as a politician. You're describing him as the kind of person who's got to keep, , the different factions happy so that, he can continue to get things done. So, I think it's brilliant.
It's fairly easy to put a label on him, what his position is in your partnership, but what would your label be? Were you his conscience? Were you his coach? Were you the person that pushed him? Were you the idea person? , how would you label yourself in that partnership? I love that you use the word conscience because there were other political analysts who would say, or writers that would say he was a pragmatist, practical, get the work done, , get the end result.
And I was the absolutist and, the activist, but the absolutist that had the conscience. , to do what I think was right, knowing I'll be criticized, but , there were no repercussions for me other than being criticized. It didn't affect , my standing or it didn't affect my life the way it would affect Franklin. So yes, I like to think his political conscience, I was kind of, like the trial balloon for certain issues.
And I was blown up, , and it was me that caused the stir, if it was me that planted an idea that the country wasn't ready to accept yet, if I blew up, it really didn't affect him politically. We were truly, , great partners that kind of balanced each other out . you were talking about World War II and when you were spending time with the troops, there are some amazing stories of how you handled those meetings.
, a lot of times politicians will, , they're trying to do a photo op or they're trying to get some good press. You know, I went and saw the veterans, but it appeared as if you really took your time and you went from one person to the next. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience with wounded veterans? You're absolutely right. I mean, certainly there were some photo opportunities, but especially going into the hospitals where I would see the wounded and you're right.
I went from bed to bed and very often I may even become a little bit choked up when I recall these times when I Took their hands in mine, or I would put my hand on the face of a man who had dedicated his life in service to his country. I'd put my hand on his face in the same way that perhaps his mother would if she had been there, and I tried to look into the eyes and tell each one of them that America truly appreciated their service.
And my heart would always be so incredibly full when I had the opportunity to do that. I think it was 8, 000 miles, perhaps, like covered once again, Franklin was unable to travel with his polio, with his physical condition. So there was another time I became the legs for him and made those trips to Northern Africa and in the South Pacific and all over and not even just visiting the wounded and the sick and taking home words that they left with me.
To take home and share with their loved ones, should they not make it home? How did you deal with that? When you go through good times in your life, you also have to be appreciative of the bad times, the hard times. And I think times like that, it make me stronger to have seen death as a child with my own mother and my own father.
And to have suffered heartache and to have suffered rejection and criticism and such and hardship in so many ways, I think that it helps you better have the strength and courage to fall back on when you are faced with something that's equally challenging and something that's very difficult. It helps you to go forward and to face your fears and to face those excruciating experience with a resolve that was built perhaps in you from infancy or from childhood.
And no, you're right, it does not get easier, but you have to always do what you think you cannot do. It is imperative. And it is a valuable gift for those men and women to see that I also could feel their pain and that I was genuinely heartbroken and equally inspired. So speaking to the wounded or speaking to just even the troops in general, trying to be encouraging and trying to let them know how deeply grateful this country was for their service.
I traveled so very much and I enjoyed each one of those trips. I do like the one anecdote that Admiral Perry, I suppose was at the South Pole and, and there was a anecdote that he always set an extra plate at his dinner table just in case Eleanor should stop by. I also sometimes was distressed when I heard of minorities not being treated equally in the armed services and not receiving the respect and such that they did.
There was a group of airmen, fighter pilots, the Tuskegee Airmen, who are a group of colored fighter pilots who are highly skilled and incredibly devoted to serving their country. And they had passed all of the training and all, and scored the highest on all of the academic tests and such. Because of their race, they were never given an assignment that actually took them into the air to fight , the Nazi Air Force. And so I said, I have to go and I have to visit these men.
And I went to their training base, the Tuskegee Airmen, and I said, I want to see the planes and I want to meet the pilots. And I also want to go up for a ride. And so I met some of the very distinguished and wonderful men that were part of that unit. And when it , came time for me to go and actually go up in one of the airplanes they were ushering over one of the white officers and such. And I said no. I want to go up in the airplane with that gentleman over there. And it was a young black man.
And he was so excited. I could see the light in his eyes when I pointed him out. And I said, I want him to take me up for a ride in the plane. And I want to make sure. But there are plenty of photographers around that are going to capture this moment. And indeed we did. We went up in the airplane. We circled around a few times. And when we came back, there were very many photographs of me with that young Tuskegee Airmen that were circulated in all the newspapers.
And after that, in calling attention to the fact that they had never been given a serious mission to fly, after that they finally did, and oh, They proved that they were so capable and so highly skilled, they were a terrific asset to the armed forces during those years. And I'm very proud that , by taking a photograph, I had the tiniest bit of helping them prove dedicated Americans they truly were.
, it just seems that you find these groups that have been forgotten or marginalized or, and you just jump in and you say, okay, look, these are people that have something to give and I'm going to go in and I'm going to give them a chance to give. This reminds me a lot of The press conferences that I read about that you did at the White House. Can you tell a little bit about that? Well, I know that from the time I was First Lady I wanted to advocate for women.
So I did ask that all of my press conferences would be filled with Women journalists, and I did stick to that for quite a while, and I encouraged them. I appreciated them. And I think some of my best interviews were those that were written by female journalists.
And I'm also very tickled when I hear that women enrolling in journalism school just increased , after they saw that so many women were actually involved in journalism interviewing Eleanor Roosevelt, and I was happy to have a part of that. I wasn't the First Lady to conduct her own interviews and her own press conferences, but I did take full advantage of them.
I had another wonderful way and opportunity to actually connect with the American people, and that was, I believe, in about 1936, I was asked to write a column. A daily column called My Day. People wanted a glimpse of what a day in the life of Eleanor Roosevelt was actually like. And I think initially, they wanted me to write about fashion or what people were wearing at the White House. And as I said, I had no inkling what that was about.
One of the earliest headlines also that I had to endure when I was First Lady was It was an August day and the headlines were Mrs. Roosevelt is wearing a sleeveless dress in public. And truly, that was a, that was so controversial at that time. It was August, it was hot, I had on a sleeveless dress and that was completely inappropriate for a first lady. You know, I think they would have really been shocked if they knew I didn't have stockings on that day either.
So I, I always believed that anybody who spent more than 10 on a dress was truly wasting their money. And the other thing I believe that I came to see that they wanted me to write about in the my day column was about banquets and food and such and I also never hardly even attended a party, let alone throw a party or banquet. And I was a terrible cook. I had no idea how to cook. And so I had to actually hire someone to be the cook, the official cook for the White House.
And I had met this lovely woman during the days of the Depression. and in the early days she was selling. Baked goods on the sidewalk. Her name was Henrietta Nesbitt, and she was so kind and so gracious that she let me Have little samples of the things that she was selling that I brought her into the White House as the chief cook and she did a magnificent job cleaning and organizing between you and me. The kitchen at that time was rather filthy and disorganized.
But unfortunately, she was not a very good cook at all. We tended to have a lot of runny eggs and tapioca and gelatin and things like that it was actually pretty revolting. And poor Franklin, who would used to be, have a very taste for fine cuisine was very patient and accommodating during those years that poor Henrietta was serving up this terrible food. You know that during those early years when she was running the kitchen, most people who invited to the White House for a banquet or a dinner.
They knew it was a good idea to eat before they came. And that's true. But on the other hand Are you kidding me? No, just look up any of the recipes of the White House at that time. We were not known for very good food. But at the same time, , there was also that part of both Henrietta and my part that recognized How could we, in good faith, serve expensive delicacies and sumptuous banquets and such with all with steak and all these delicacies?
How could we do that knowing that the rest of the country was struggling through this depression, barely able to buy a loaf of bread? Yeah. How hypocritical. So then we also said, well, we intended these dinners to be, budget worthy and saving people money and giving you an example of how you could eat and you could be sustained on meals that could be put together for less than a dollar a piece. And so that was also kind of our mantra.
We never wanted to be as much as we could afford to, and as much as the precedent had been set for almost like royal treatment at the White House. We always felt that all of the rules apply to all of us. And it was unfair to ask the American people to sacrifice it to do with less. If we were unwilling to do it ourselves, thinking that any good leader would have.
Unfortunately, I don't know if it's all that popular of an approach, but I will say this too, that, that actually was also what we thought about what I was thinking about. When we were found ourselves in World War II and we won World War I, but I don't think America truly learned from World War One, and that was because those that were left at home did not feel a part of the war effort at all.
And so when World War Two broke out, and yes, I made it one of my priorities to go and visit all of those men and women that were serving all over the world. We also made it a priority to support those that are on the home front. We encourage people to plant victory gardens.
Victory gardens so that people would learn how to grow their own food and vegetables so that the food processing plants and the factories could concentrate on providing the food to send overseas to all of the troops that we had all over and make that the most important focus for them and not worry so much about what we would find in our own grocery store. We could grow it ourselves. We haven't had a victory garden.
It wasn't particularly successful, but we have one right on the front lawn of the White House to show an example that we're all in this together and asking the American people to ration some of the everyday goods in their own home that could be diverted or saved and used to producing weapons or ammunition that could again be sent to those troops. There were stores that said bring your fat cans in here.
meaning not that you might think it meant at first your fat cans but cans coffee cans would be filled with leftover fat and grease that people have used in cooking and those could be used in factories they could be recycled and everyone recycled things like foil in and metals and large and We even recycled at the White House. We had to also be in this together and set a good example.
And I remember the Christmases that we certainly we did not use all of the German made ornaments that would normally decorate a Christmas tree, but we also did not use tinsel because it seemed like a waste of that precious thin foil that could be sent to factories and reused for something that was truly purposeful and for the benefit of our troops. And all of the Americans worked in this together, the recycling and the victory gardens and encouraging the women.
to learn new skills, so that they could take the places of men in the factories. And how liberating that was for women to feel that they too had an investment in this war struggle. And they could also celebrate with the men equally when we finally saw victory. Do you have a staff, personally, of 10, 000 people that help you? Execute all of your causes?
I know it, I, the staff of the White House alone is probably four or five hundred and I know that because all year long I pick up little trinkets and little gifts for all of them. There's a Christmas room in the White House where I stash gifts so that I can give them personal gifts on Christmas Eve. And so I know that there's at least four hundred just in the White House alone. So I suppose, yeah.
But if you look at all of these efforts and all of these agencies, yes, it probably would go into the thousands. And because all of these policies and all of these issues go throughout the entire country, not just in Washington, D. C. as well, the entire country is unified, one together, and there's nothing that brings the country together more than this kind of struggle to save democracy and a struggle to keep freedom alive and well in this country. Yeah, there's no question about that.
I'm wondering if I'd read a little bit at some point about that you have some strong feelings about Jewish people that had changed quite a bit over the years. What can you tell me about that?
I am very embarrassed to say that as a young person growing up , in upstate New York and in a very privileged social circle, had feelings about minorities, about colored people and about Jewish people, that there were certainly discriminatory, even racist inclinations that I had learned from the time I was a child.
But actually, I believe it also is due to Madame Sylvester who taught me that all people are the same in their hearts and in their souls and have equal value and should enjoy equal rights. And if I had one true regret in my time as First Lady, it would be when I realized how the Jewish people were suffering. Under the Nazi regime and desperately trying to escape death and the camps and all kinds of atrocities.
One of my deepest regrets is that I was not able to do more to give those refugees asylum in this country. There were.
People that knew what was coming and that knew we knew what was coming and what was happening and yet we it took so Very long for America to jump in and really support our allies in the way that we had intended and especially to welcome refugees That were trying to escape not the party to welcome them to our own shores I think because the end Antisemitism was so rampant in our country, it still probably is.
And I don't know if I even want the answer to your, to that question if I ask about what the future holds, but there were actually a ship that was bringing Jewish families to the United States for asylum. And I don't know what the Statue of Liberty stands for, if it doesn't stand for this. I helped make arrangements for that ship to come. And yet they were turned away at our borders. And once again, it was certain.
Congressmen that were not ready to accept refugees at all, and even more, certainly not to accept what they saw as the negative, racist perceptions that they had of people of the Jewish faith. And they were turned back. They were turned back. And that ship had to return with those families heartbroken and disillusioned. . But now prior to , , Madam Sylvestra, prior to you learning from her that all people had value, you were raised with some of those racist beliefs.
That's what you were saying, right? Absolutely. I was saying we had what I would say colored help when I was growing up as a little girl and grandmother Hall's . And I had heard my aunts and my uncles refer to them as darkies. And we had grown up to never being exposed to working with people from other cultures or other races and such. And so it takes a very long time to Change those perceptions and to change your whole outlook.
And again, it is embarrassing now to think that is where we came from, and yet at the same time, perhaps it can be hopeful knowing that people can change their perceptions and their, the way that they treat other people. If you can go from one that was so grossly racist and discriminatory to an outlook that is we must save and we must work for these people, then perhaps that is something hopeful to know that change is possible, channel.
Have there not been one or two people in your life, instead of jumping into every minority group and saying, how can I help you, you could have gone the other direction and been a racist, and probably, you would have known it was wrong, but you just would have been raised that way.
Yes, and you also have to be grateful then for the people who initially it sounds like were cruel or you would might expect to have a negative impact, such as my mother or in some respects, even maybe Franklin because he was disloyal in, in our marriage. But yet. All of those people in some way did shape the person that I became and shaped the character and taught me lessons. And you're absolutely right.
I think sometimes of my my cousin Alice Roosevelt, Theodore's Uncle Teddy's daughter, my cousin was very bitter and we were close to the same age, but she was very bitter because She also had lost her mother at an early age and her father was also an adventurer and often gone on safaris and trips and things and she felt resentful that she didn't get more attention.
And so she became a little bit embittered and she was one of my, she was a thorn in my side, pretty much, also arranging rendezvous with Lucy Mercer and my husband. She was always making fun of me and the way that I talk and impersonating me at parties to get laughs with my friends. It was very cruel. And I suppose that if you have a difficult childhood, as you were saying, Tony, you could go either way.
You could let that hate and that venom and those bad experiences shape you and embitter you, or you can learn from them and say, no, that's not the way I want to live my life. And again, it was Madame Sylvester saying that happiness is a goal. You can't make yourself be happy. It only comes by serving others. Good night. Share that with very many people, I think. If you're feeling unhappy or lonely or discouraged make yourself useful. Go and do something kind to somebody else, an individual.
And not just writing a check, but actually doing something helpful to an individual. And all of a sudden you will realize that you feel a happiness that you might never have experienced before, certainly not in a long time. There's no greater joy.
I've always been one to pitch in and try to help in any way I can, as I did with Franklin and unpacking his suitcases, and I actually, I had a wonderful gentleman in my life when I was the wife of the governor, when Franklin was governor of New York, and they decided as wife of the governor, I needed a bodyguard, and so I was assigned Earl Miller. As my bodyguard when I was in that role, because they thought the wife of the governor should be protected.
And he was another that I could probably say left a footprint on my heart, because he finally got me to enjoy He taught me how to ride a horse and to drive the car. As you said, I had my own little roadster and I was supposed to have a driver and I never wanted a driver as first lady or as a first wife of the governor, because it was so much fun to drive that roadster.
My children used to say to me, mother, when you pull out into the street in your roadsters, all the other cars like get out of the way. And they all duck into the side streets. And I tended to drive a little bit fast, but Earl Miller also taught me how to shoot a revolver because he said if you're going to insist on going out by yourself both as the governor's wife and as first lady, you better know how to defend yourself.
So he taught me how to shoot a revolver and I always kept one in the glove compartment. He taught me, Earl Miller taught me how to swim and how to finally, Enjoy children, and it was too late for me to enjoy my own children because they were already grown by the time we went into the White House, but I so enjoyed my grandchildren.
And the entire third floor of the White House was devoted to all of my children and my grandchildren that visited very frequently and are still an important part of my life, were very close. , in going back to trying to be of service and always, , you want to do things for the people that you love.
Well, even though Earl Miller was there to protect me and to spend time with me and make sure that I was safe, I would very often go to his apartment and just clean up and tidy up a little bit because I wanted to do something special for him as well because he had showed me such kindness. And he was also rather good looking as well, which certainly didn't hurt that friendship. This sounds to me like, like there might have been a potential relationship there.
Was there any kind of relationship beyond just friends there? Well, I don't know if it's really appropriate for me to comment on that. If you ask one of my sons they will say, yes, that there was a relationship. And right now I'm just going to choose not to say anything at all. And, and once again, I, there are all different kinds of relationships and intense relationships that can take very many different directions, so we say.
Well, and speaking of that, it seems like you had a really strong relationship with Lorena Hickok, is that her name? Lorena Hickok Hick. was another one, yet another one, who left footprints on my heart. You know, I first met her when Franklin was being encouraged to run for the presidency in 1932. Because the nation turned their eyes to him as someone who not only has the intelligence to address the Great Depression and how to bring this country back on its feet, but also has the compassion.
I'm not going to do it. And yet, at that time, I did not want any part of being a First Lady, because I had so much to do. As I talked to you earlier, I was involved in so many different things, and I knew what a First Lady often looked like, and that was not me. I could not see myself in that role, and so I was less than enthusiastic when Franklin was actually campaigning.
And it was Lorena Hickok, who was an AP reporter, who came to me after one of those rallies, and she said, Mrs. Roosevelt, we all know. That you do not want to be a First Lady. But if you are, you can be a First Lady unlike one that this country has ever seen before. You can be a voice for all the oppressed in this country that have no other voice. Women, young people, minorities, and the poor.
And she helped me take on this role then with a completely new attitude that there were people in this country who needed me, or someone like me, to not be afraid to speak out for them. And she was a very great friend and a close friend when I really had no one close to me at that time. And she spent a lot of time with me together, and she actually did even have a room in the White House. And it was very close to my own room.
In fact, they were joining so that we could spend our evenings sharing the events of the day and talking about what we needed to do tomorrow. And she was a great confidant. And I know that there are certain letters that are sometimes circulating and they might suggest that there was. A physical relationship, but I want you also to remember that I was called a subversive for giving Mary Bethune a hug and a kiss on the cheek, and very often, women like to hold hands or to be close to each other.
That is something that women are very comfortable doing, and throughout history, women have had those kinds of relationships that aren't necessarily physical. It's completely the kind of relationship you might be considering in, in your future, in your modern world. So I think that the theory would still be out and I wouldn't feel comfortable actually confirming if it was one thing or another, other than to know that I loved her very much.
And I was sad when she felt that she had to resign from her position because we had become such close and such dear friends that she felt she could no longer cover me in the newspapers without a bias. Because she really thought very highly of me and I of her. She was a, she was there for me in a very precarious time as First Lady, when I truly needed someone like her to shore me up and give me courage to continue.
That's very bold of her to come to somebody like you and give you a pep talk about what you could accomplish, considering the kind of things that you did and the person that you are. , she must be a really extraordinary person.
She is an extraordinary person, and I do know that she has admittedly confirmed the fact that she is a lesbian, as were Marion and Nan who I worked with during the 1920s, they were also a lesbian couple who were very involved in many of the democratic committees and in many of the social causes that we were working on during even the 1920s.
And yet That just happened to be true of very many of the women who did not have families and had the opportunity to spend time getting politically involved, didn't have families, but took their time away from those causes that had the resources to devote to those causes and those issues in the education and the experience. And I think we are very grateful to very many of those women who did take on those issues during that time.
And Yes, many of them were lesbians, and yet they did some of the finest work for the people in our country. I will never regret or deny my close friendships with all of those women. In fact, it was a great relief to me when I finally, through the 1920s, was able to build my own life.
Home, Val Kill, where I could buy my own furniture, decorate it in any way I wanted, serve whatever kind of food I wanted there, and invite my friends, like Marion and Nancy, and all the other women that I had been working with at that time to come and work on these things together.
So perhaps they were almost like my staff in those days, but I will have great love and affection for all those women, no matter what they do behind closed doors, I really don't feel is neither my business or anyone else's business for that matter. Do you think that in a different time, if you had , wiped the chalkboard clean of all your responsibilities and all your causes and even your marriage you just wiped the slate clean and you just looked at Hick Lorena, people called her Hick?
Yes. If she were a man, is that somebody you could have married? Oh, definitely. I do believe that is an interesting question and one that is so far from my consciousness and In 1961 but I believe, yes, that's very true, thoroughly enjoyed each other's company. And I think we made each other better women, better people, and we were great comfort to each other when things were stressful or when we were undergoing any kind of criticism or difficulties at all. And there were plenty of those.
I think we also would have made very good partners. I could see certainly that might have been a very successful relationship. So, it seems like you get along with , most people,.. Who do you not get along with? Is there a group of people, , do you have problems with Italians? Or, is there anybody that you just don't get along with them? Personally, and because of my work, I tend to work with people that admire and have the same mindset.
But if there were a particular group of people right now that always get under my skin a little bit, and I am almost afraid to say this, but right now some of the people that are serving in Congress , who have a different agenda than making life better and safer and cleaner and safer for Americans, people whose agenda seems to include.
Keeping the status quo because they profit so much from it, the people, especially in some constituencies who are perfectly fine with racism or misogyny or keeping outsiders out of our borders, those people frustrate me and make me angry because that is not what American democracy is all about. We are here for everyone in this country , to enjoy their rights and their freedom equally.
And I'm most angry at people in our government who have that kind of outlook who work against any of these progressive issues and improvements in our country because they are more worried about what they can gain and maintaining their privileged lifestyle than they are helping others. And for me, I can't even imagine person who would have that kind of attitude, especially when they've been gifted and blessed with so many.
And so many extras, but that probably frustrates me as far as one person, I'm having a difficult time thinking of one person I really had a problem with Adolf Hitler and I also never quite trusted Stalin, but there'd be very few right now. And of course, Joe McCarthy was another one who I really, I think he did great damage in our country and I'm so glad that he was finally routed out. But other than that, I can't think of any one personally.
And now as I'm thinking, I keep thinking of others that pop up. My cousin Alice was very hurtful. But other than that, I can't think of anyone else who I have complete distaste or I try not to hold anger in my heart, let's say that. I mean, people do what they think they have to do at the time and sometimes we just can't figure out where they're actually coming from. But we just always do what we can to make things right.
We do whatever little thing we can do to improve our own lives and to improve the people that we are.
It is a real talent of yours, after a lifetime of, , you said that somebody called you an ugly , duckling, , and then you said that you were called granny by, I think your mother, , and as you go into politics with the president people are From my understanding, they're constantly, , saying negative things about your clothing, and again, about your looks, and, , that you're not paying attention to the things that women should pay attention to, maybe, and yet, it just seems like that just
constantly just rolls off your back, and you just have a real talent for that. Well, I think if you get older and I am approaching I'm sure I'm approaching the end of my life, and I'm grateful for those kinds of lessons, which have helped me to realize that outside appearances don't count at all, and they don't say anything about who that person really is, whether it's the color of their skin or the clothes that they wear.
Or the, their facial structure and such, that all of those things don't matter at all. But it's the person inside that, and it goes back to the purity of heart and the nobility of spirit. Those are the things that matter most in, in who a person really is. And so I am grateful that when you are 70 you, you tend not to worry about your appearance because there isn't very much you can do about it at this age anyway.
But I've always just felt the happiest knowing that I made a difference perhaps in, in someone's life. Even if it's just one person's life, I think it makes your life worthwhile. And so I always try to encourage people that no matter what their age or what their vocation is or where their standing is in life, but to try to do something new. That makes you useful to someone else, to show someone else a kindness.
And if that is the rule by you live by every day, I think that you will definitely a life well lived. Were you a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution? Well, that is an interesting story as well. Yes, I actually was, and that goes all the way back to being a woman of society, a woman of privilege. I mean, anyone would feel like they deserved or that they were entitled to be a part of that esteemed organization.
And as I served as First Lady and I became aware of the inequalities in our country, particularly when it came to minorities, and I became more involved in the civil rights movement, I also became a great fan of an opera singer by the name of Marian Anderson. Thanks, Ben. And she was brilliant and beautiful and probably the most talented opera singer that this country has ever seen. . She had traveled all over the world giving concerts before.
And she was invited to speak at Constitutional Hall in Washington, D. C., and so looking forward to that concert. It was sure to be a sellout. But the sponsors of that concert were the Daughters of the American Revolution. And they sent out a statement that said there will be no Negro singer ever performing at Constitution Hall, and they canceled her concert. Now at that time I was outraged, I was mortified, and yet I took advantage then of the voice that I had through the My Day column.
And I wrote about this in the My Day column and said what an outrage this is, what an injustice this is, that in our day and age that we would deny someone as talented as Marian Anderson the opportunity to share her gifts because of the color of her skin, And so people began to realize that, that this was certainly an issue and one that we were not proud of at all as Americans.
And I also announced in the, in that my day column that I was going to resign from the Daughters of the American Revolution, that I could no longer be a part of an organization that would condone such behavior, that would have that kind of practice. And I did. And I helped to arrange for Marian Anderson to sing instead on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial to a crowd of. Over 75,000 Americans of all races and ages and genders. And I'll tell you and I know that it's available even now.
You can see this, the film of this concert. And when she is singing My Country Kiss of the Sweet Land of Liberty of the Ice Sing, I guarantee you will not have a dry eye. You know, I did not, I arranged to help arrange that concert and I did not attend that concert myself because I was concerned that. If Eleanor Roosevelt showed up at her concert, that the focus would be on me, instead of on Marian Anderson, who deserved the limelight and all of the attention for that concert.
Just as the way that I was not the center of attention at my own wedding, because all of the attention was focused on Teddy Roosevelt, I knew what that felt like. And so I stayed away, but I watched it on film, and it was the most magnificent sight. And you know, later, it was only several years later that I resigned from the DAR, but then I actually joined the NAACP, and I'm very proud of that organization myself. Are there a lot of white people in the NAACP?
Yes, there are I don't know what you would mean by a lot and I don't also have those numbers. But there are always, and thank God there always have been, white people joining hand in hand to march with and demonstrate with people of color, the Negroes, the Blacks in this country that are so overdue for enjoying the same rights that we all take for granted. So yes, there are very many of us.
And I'm so very proud of our president, of President Kennedy right now, also embracing the civil rights movement. I'm so proud of the whites that march with Dr. Martin Luther King, when he is demonstrating to the rest of the country how freedom for all is long overdue. When you think of civil rights leaders, you've mentioned Martin Luther King twice now. Is he the one that you would say is your favorite? Or is there somebody that you admire more or as much?
Right now there is nobody I admire more for his eloquence, for his humility, for his compassion. I think no one, and just hearing one of his speeches also brings tears to my eyes and raises goosebumps on my arms because he is such a magnificent gift to this movement. And so I think there is no one that I would admire more. I almost equally admire his wife, too, for her support and her undying Partnership.
That she, that a beautiful marriage and I think having served with Franklin, I also admire his wife very much too. , there is no one greater right now in this country working for the civil rights movement. In your family and in your marriage, there's always been enough money. You could have just sat home and done none of this and sewed dresses. Is that true? Well, yeah, certainly we would have had enough to live on, certainly. What joy does that bring? . So, I guess my question is this.
You obviously didn't do that and that's why you're so revered in our time. My, I guess my, one of my questions that I want to ask is, looking at all that you accomplished and, , it's just magnificent. It's ten lifetimes. It's a hundred lifetimes for a normal person. Could you have Accomplished more if you were a man?
That's a very provocative question, and I would probably at this stage in my life say yes, because a man is given the opportunities to have that kind of power and those kinds of positions, and perhaps even more could have been accomplished, but then I'm not certain how many populations might have been left behind. I think being a woman has enabled me to connect on a very Deep and personal level with the half of the population that is female.
So, yes I suppose that I could have possibly accomplished more as a man, but I'm not sure if all of those accomplishments necessarily would override what we've been able to accomplish. I'm going to ask you one more question, and I am so thankful for all your time today, because I don't know how anybody, man, woman, could have accomplished more in a lifetime as you did. It's just magnificent, and I guess , we have a tendency to be critical of ourself.
There's probably something that you wish that you could still get done, or would have finished or done a better job with. Is there anything that you look back that you wish you would have done something more with it? And also, if you were going to leave a message to the women of this time, because there'll be a lot of women that listen to this, what would you want to say to them to encourage them?
Well, first of all, as far as regret I do regret that I allowed my mother in law to take away from me the opportunity to be a real mother to my children. And I have regrets that all my children Even though Sarah said there will never be a divorce, all my children, all five of them, have gone through divorces, some more than one. Several of my children have also struggled with alcoholism and many disappointments, and an inability , to make their dreams come true.
And I would like to think that perhaps if I had been there, I have been a more active mother. I could have changed the course of their lives too, so I deeply regret that. I also deeply regret the fact that I was unable to convince Franklin to welcome and offer asylum to the refugees after the war and to do more to spare the lives of the millions that were slaughtered in those camps and by the Nazi regime.
And I have a deep regret, a deep sorrow about that, that I was unable to convince the government to do that. to show more compassion to the Jewish refugees. And as far as what I would say to, to the women today I was always terrified because I knew how very often I was perceived and and criticized and such. And yet I would say to, to women, you must always do that which you think you cannot do. And also I found to be very good advice, do something every day that scares you.
Do something every day that scares you to always challenge yourself. And I believe truly that the future belongs to those Who believe in the beauty of their dreams. Your life was meant to be lived. Mrs. Roosevelt, I am so thankful for all your time today. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we finish? . I cannot believe how the time has flown. Speaking with you has been a very great joy for me and a privilege.
And I hope that I lived up to the reputation of using a smartphone correctly. And I hope that someday we will meet again, Tony. It has been an utmost pleasure. So after listening to this, you have to ask yourself what wasn't Eleanor Roosevelt involved in. She was a member of the daughters of the American revolution until they didn't want to keep up with the times. She was a member of the NAACP. She worked with the United nations to draft a declaration of human rights. For the whole world.
And of course in her spare time, she may have dated her bodyguard because remember he was quite good looking and she also probably had an intimate relationship with Lorena Hickok.
Eleanor Roosevelt was a woman living life to the fullest , And as she said, doing things that scared her and living life without judgment of either the things that she could or couldn't do, or the people that she would spend her time with, as far as her husband, the president, I'm sure he was a brilliant man and he goes down as a very highly rated president in history, but remember he couldn't walk, he couldn't travel easily. And Eleanor was his legs when he needed them.
How many of his accomplishments were possible? Because he had a strong partner that never left his side, despite his physical and moral weaknesses. It's hard to imagine now, history would have been different without Eleanor Roosevelt's compassion, wisdom, and work ethic to use her privilege to raise others. That were born with none. Thank you for listening.
And don't forget that when you tell a friend about the calling history podcast, an alien, quietly size, and then cancels their invasion plans. I'm Tony Dean. And until next time I'm history.