I'm Tony Dean. And today we'll be calling history to speak with Eleanor Roosevelt. She'll be answering our call in 1961. After the recent election of president Kennedy, Eleanor Roosevelt was an extraordinary woman that spent her life protecting some and helping others rise above their perceived station. She was a civil rights activist stood up for child labor laws toward the battlefields of world war two to raise the morale of the troops.
The list of her good deeds is endless yet, despite all of her accomplishments and her commitment to service, she was orphaned at 10 and raised by her grandmother that wouldn't let her play with children's toys. She was constantly insulted because of her looks and yet found a way to rise above it all in to this day is listed as America's number one first lady, even though she would occasionally hang a baby out a third story window, I suppose none of us are perfect at everything.
Ladies and gentlemen, fellow history, lovers, and women with driver's licenses everywhere. I give you Eleanor Roosevelt. Hello, is that you, Mrs. Roosevelt? Yes, this is Mrs. Roosevelt speaking. What? Mrs. Roosevelt, I am so excited to speak with you today. My name is Tony Dean and I'm talking to you from the future in the 21st century. The device that you're holding is called a smartphone and it's quite a bit different and more advanced than the phones that you have in your time.
And it actually makes this conversation possible. It also allows me to share a record of our conversation with people around the world so that those that don't. about this incredible contribution that you've made to your country and your world, so that they would have a chance to hear that. And I was hoping that I could ask you some questions today, but before I do, I understand this is a strange introduction. Can I answer any questions that you may have first? Well, I don't think so.
I'm rather flabbergasted by the idea that you're actually calling from the future to speak with me, and I'm also perhaps a little bit intimidated by the idea of a Smart phone. I'm certainly familiar with conversations on my own telephone, but I just hope I can live up to the smart aspect of it and keep up with you. But thank you again. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Well, you're going to keep up with it just fine.
In fact, the problem that all the other people in the world have, even in our time, is keeping up with you, with all of the things that you've done and accomplished. Like, it just seems like you have this Never ending amount of energy towards causes that really matter. And I guess, one of the things I wanted to ask you right away is that, is it true that you were The first lady to have a driver's license. Is that correct? Well, that is certainly true.
And I, I always made it my goal actually to be a very different kind of first lady because being a first lady is something that I never aspired to. In fact, I actually dreaded it. So yes, I suppose I was the first lady. First Lady to drive her own car and probably quite a list of other things, too. Makes me proud to say that I was a very different kind of First Lady. What is the year right now in your time?
Well, we're in 1961, and I'm very happy to say that despite my age into my 70s, I am still making certain that I am active and always trying to be useful, and that is what I've always tried to do, I believe that Once you stop being useful and once you stop being of service to others, it's certainly when you begin to die. So even though my children tell me that it's time for you to slow down, Mother, I refuse to because there still is just so much to do.
Why would they even try to tell you to slow down? At this point, with you being in your 70s, haven't they given up trying to tell you to back off a little bit? No, I'm not going to back off. And that certainly is very true. And I think by now, once I say that they stopped even arguing with me. And I would like to think that in some ways they are even very proud of me.
I still have the honor of working closely with president John F. Kennedy, and he actually asked me to chair a commission on the status of women in this country. I had the great pleasure of meeting Martin Luther King at a speech that he gave just this. So I'm still very active in that civil rights movement, and I am so encouraged as I enter my later years. I'm so encouraged by the fact that we have these great leaders in our country taking us forward into the next generation.
So tell me, you'd mentioned Kennedy. So Kennedy is having you chair some organization for women's rights. What does that look like? And I'm curious what kind of person Kennedy is. You know, it took me quite a while to warm up to John F. Kennedy. I, I wasn't a particular Um, and I also had a run in or two with Cardinal Spelman over Catholic schools and public funding and such.
And so I was a bit skeptical about this young man of privilege and Catholic ascending into this position as President of the United States.
And yet, now that I know John Kennedy, Well, I see in him something that I loved about my husband, Franklin, and that's the ability to connect to other people, to be able to communicate, and to listen and to feel their needs and their sufferings, their longings, and their different requirements from their leaders, I like to sometimes even believe that it's almost incorporating some of the new deal values that Franklin had for this country, that kind of vision, in John F. Kennedy.
And so , I'm very proud to have that privilege to know him and to work with him. And what he asked me to do was, I complained because he was not putting enough women in positions in his administration. And I submitted a letter, I believe actually it was three pages, a list of all the different positions I felt that he could fill with very responsible and accomplished women in this country to just make that administration a little bit more well balanced.
And actually he took notice and he was listening to me. So he , appointed me to be on this commission to lead a study into the status of women in this country right now. And if we really are achieving the equality that we've been , after for so very long. What is the status of women in your time? , women have been voting for about 40 years. What are some of the inequalities that you're unhappy with?
Well, we certainly aren't represented in higher levels of administration, whether it's government or law firms or big business and such. There is a lack of women visible and active in those kinds of higher level positions. And certainly there are very many women who still uh, frustrated by their difficulty in making their way in, in any career and being recognized for the very hard work that they do.
There are still too many women who are expected only to be secretaries or aides and such, instead of taking on the leadership roles that they so deserve. Other than that, certainly we enjoy the right to vote, but we also have great work to do in educating women so that when they use their vote, they use it wisely and that they choose the very best leaders that this country needs. , speaking of the the right to vote.
I think you were involved or you are involved in, you're going to have to forgive me, but I can't remember the name of this organization. It's the something league of women voters. Is that an organization you're involved with? Yes. I was always an active participant and member advocates of the league of women voters.
You know, , I didn't become suffragist until much later, until I actually was pretty much forced into taking on a stronger role in the community and in social issues, even though I already had a husband and children. However, I think I really became more active in the League of Women Voters when Franklin Ran for Vice President of the United States in 1920 with James Cox.
They were the democratic candidates for the presidency, and that was right after World War I. And it was also the very first year that women had the right to vote. And unfortunately there are very many of us who feel that women squandered that vote.
By voting instead of Mr. Cox and Franklin, they voted for Warren Harding, who happened to be very handsome, and he looked like a film star, a movie star, and the women were attracted to his appearance and his looks rather than they were his capabilities and his qualifications, and he turned out to be one of the worst presidents that this country has ever seen. So I made it a goal of mine.
To educate women, again, about the responsibility that comes with the right to vote, and making sure that they would be able to use that vote wisely. And so the League of Women Voters New York Women's Democratic Committee, I worked on all of those in all of those agencies throughout most of the 20s, when I had that decade to kind of find, again, other things to do to make myself useful. You're welcome. So in 1920, so that was the very first time that you voted. Is that correct? Oh, yes.
That is correct. Yes, that is correct. Yeah. And what was going on around that time? , is this where you dedicated a lot of your time at that particular moment? I dedicated some of my time. At that time, the suffragists had already been working for that vote for, Probably 50 years, and it took them that long to finally gain it, and again, women were allowed to vote, but very few did, and very few were making what we thought intelligent decisions when they were using that vote.
When I was married, and I had young children, And I will tell you more about my mother in law later, perhaps, in this conversation. She pretty much took over running the household for me, and I wanted to please her, and Franklin did not want to challenge her or stand up to her when she overstepped a bit in our household and in our marriage. But it also forced me to go out and make myself useful in other venues. So, yes, I did work for women's rights.
And I worked for those Democratic committees, and I worked for the League of Women Voters. But there were also so many other things in this country that needed the attention of those that had the time and the willingness to volunteer. This was right after World War I ended, and it was a horrific war. And there were so many men and some women who returned from that war not only physically wounded, but also shell shocked from the horrors that they saw there.
So I volunteered at the Red Cross and took care of some of those young men, those heroes really, who were not getting the kind of care that they deserve. And so I became active in also working for the rights and the care for veterans. There were children in 1920 who were working in factories instead of going to school. There were no child labor laws and some of these children were as young as eight years old and working in factories on assembly lines till their little fingers were even bloody.
And so I also became active then during those years working to establish child labor laws. There were so many inequalities and poor conditions for the veterans too. So it, I would go. Into veterans hospitals and make sure that they were receiving the care that they deserved and that the places were clean. I would open all the cupboards and I would look under the beds, and I always said that. You cannot expect anyone to sleep in a bed that you're not ready to sleep in yourself.
I, there were terrible conditions for men in our country who were trying so desperately to make a living by working in the mines. And oh, those mines were very unsafe conditions and there was no laws in place made those working conditions acceptable. So I had my own pair of overalls and I'd put on my overalls and I'd climb down into those mines and inspect them myself. They were dangerous places for men to be working.
I made sure that I took those back to the committees and very often these committees were made up of women, who saw that those laws were put into place to protect the Americans in this country who are working so hard. During those years, I also, in addition to these other courses, I also started my own school. I started the Todd Hunter School because I've always been such a proponent of education. And I'll tell you what inspired me to do that. You know, I had never attended school before.
I tragically lost my parents when I was only 10 years old. I was orphaned at age 10. And I had never attended school. I was always privately tutored. And when my mother and my father both passed away, I was sent to live with my grandmother. Grandmother who? It was my mother's mother, and she was very stern and very strict. She probably was unlike most grandmothers that you have ever come in contact with, Tony.
She always kept the window shades drawn, and it was very dark, and there was no talking or laughing at dinnertime, and she didn't believe in toys. She was very religious, and so I remember my only comfort in being with books and with reading. She had four grown daughters. Children that also lived with her, unmarried, and they were also fond of guns and of alcohol and it was a very unpleasant environment for a young girl to be growing up in.
You know, sometimes I would cry because I would so miss, especially my father. And grandmother Hall would say, we'll have none of that kind of emotion or those kinds of outbursts here. If you're going to cry, you might as well go in your room and cry alone. She brought in a tutor for me, the tutor, I know. And she brought in a tutor for me, her name was Madeline, who had a bit of a sadistic side to her. And she took great delight in pulling my braids and making me cry.
I don't think grandmother Hall, I really knew how to handle me when I was growing up. And so it wasn't until I was age 13 or 14 that she finally decided to send me to a proper school. I had never been with children before. I was afraid of the dark. I was afraid of dogs and of horses. And I was mostly afraid that no one would ever really care for me. So she sent me as far away as she possibly could, all the way across the Atlantic to Allenswood School in England.
This does not sound like a very good childhood. , this is what you just told me from what I'm hearing. So mean grandmother, super strict, no toys, but lots of alcohol and guns, and now we're sick of you, go to England? I mean, is that kind of what you're telling me? That's pretty much what I'm telling you.
And if I back up even further, , , I'll explain it to my parents, Anna and Elliot Roosevelt , of the Oyster Bay, Roosevelt Teddy Roosevelt was my uncle and, but the Oyster Bay Roosevelt were very wealthy and popular in social circles. And my mother was perhaps the most beautiful woman that I had ever seen. And so you can imagine her disappointment when she took a look at me. When I was a child, Toni, when I was a baby, I was red and wrinkled like a prune.
And my mother promptly gave me the nickname of Granny. And she never called me anything else. And do you know from that time, and so in some ways I think that she influenced me because she really did not even want me to approach her when she had a second child, my baby brother Hall, she would hold him in her lap and she would say, Granny, you just go up in the corner then and read a book and leave us alone.
The only time my mother would allow me to come close to her and approach her was when she would get terrible migraines. And then she would summon me to her side and I would massage her temples. Until her headaches went away. And so, I think, even as a very little girl, I always knew that my life was to be one of service. My own mother told me, you will never be attractive, Granny, so you might as well learn good manners. But let me tell you about my father.
Wow. Because my father, though, he did not call me Granny. My father called me his beautiful little Nell. And when he came home from safaris or from travels and such, he would sweep me up in his arms and he would say, don't listen to what your mother tells you. Because if you have truth and loyalty stamped upon your face, all the world will be attracted to you.
My father was a Roosevelt, certainly, and when we would have large family dinners and such, he would always say, we cannot truly enjoy this banquet or all of these delicacies, knowing that there are people in New York who are hungry. And so after every banquet or feast or celebratory dinner, my father would be the one who would gather up all of the leftovers or spare items that we had in the kitchen, and he would go down to the slums of New York, and he would take me with him.
There were people there, so many living in cardboard boxes, starving. We would go to the soup kitchens and there my father would share what we could with those that were in need. Those were probably some of the happiest times I ever had with my father. That's where the service came from. That is absolutely where the service came from. And the joy that one gets when you're helping others and you're sharing the blessings that you have. It seems to me that's kind of a Roosevelt thing.
The Roosevelts have a history for this, , I'm assuming his parents taught him the same thing. Well that, yes, and when I talked to you a little bit more about our courtship and such, I was also just so impressed and moved by the fact that Franklin did share very many of those same values.
But what I wanted to add, before I finish with my parents, and I'm sorry if these stories are going to get very long, you may regret that you actually got me on this smart phone, my father was a Roosevelt, in that after we would leave the soup kitchens, my father would get very thirsty. And he would always have to stop for one sip. Quick drink.
And so we would go to a hotel or a tavern or a restaurant or something, and he would say, Eleanor, little Nellie goes, you wait here by the door with the doorman, and I will just be a few moments, but I just have to have one little thing to drink. Do you know once it was six hours later, when finally the doorman had to call for a taxi cab to come and take me home. And tragically, that is how my father died only two years after my mother, my father died.
from alcoholism, and that is when I was sent to Grandmother Hall.
But when she finally sent me, when she finally sent me to Allenswood, that school, , perhaps you find this is true also, and you go through your life, and you think back at your life, on your life, you know that there are always people who have moved in and out, but it is only true friends that have left footprints on my heart, and Madame Sylvester, the headmistress of that school, Allenswood, in England, left her footprints on mine.
Somehow Madame Sylvester saw a very frightened and shy uh, backward girl arrive and shy backward girl arrive at her school. She said she had never really experienced any happiness at all, and yet she helped me to understand that no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. She said later that she saw in me a purity of heart and a nobility of spirit. She recognized something in me and do you know what else she told me?
Which kind of goes along with the lessons that I learned from my father is Madam Vera told me that. You could see I had never been happy or experienced much happiness, and yet she said, Happiness in itself is not a goal. Happiness is a by product. And it can only be achieved by a life well lived. And that comes from With helping others and being of service. It was Madame Sylvester who awakened a curiosity in me that I had never experienced. She didn't speak about a book or she didn't lecture.
She offered us a book and she asked what we thought of the book. And she was always open to an exchange of all kinds of ideas. . I still have her portrait next to my bedside. She always had a tradition at the school that if you did something kind for another one of your classmates were encouraged to acknowledge that kindness by leaving flowers. In the dormitory room of the person who had shown kindness or had shown care.
And I had only been there for several months when I would return from my classes into my dorm room, it would be filled with flowers. I get a little choked up when I even think about Madame Sylvester. Those were certainly the three happiest years of my life. When my grandmother did not send for me at all for holidays and such it was Madame Sylvester who took me with her.
And she took me all over Western Europe, and we would not stay at elite hotels or eat in fancy restaurants and such, but we would go into towns and villages. where we could be of service to the people that were living there, particularly the poor. She was involved in very many social issues that were not only in our country, but all over Europe and all over the world at that time, and that was to making sure that everyone had their basic needs filled.
, It would be so interesting if there was a way to have every person, every child as they're growing up, go through some sort of experience like this. , there are a lot of countries that will have their people serve in the military, which I think there's probably benefit to that. But to have them go to poor places and to serve people and to feed people The world would be so much better if everybody had to have that experience.
I, I wonder, considering where you were , you're at such a young age, you're 10 years old, you're now an orphan. You're living with your grandmother who has no toys and lots of guns. Which just, I still can't get over that. Well, what would have happened if she would have just kept you there and she wouldn't have sent you to see Madam Sylvester? I think you're totally right , And supposing that it would have a totally different outcome.
I always like to say that everything that happens to you, good or bad, in your life helps to build your character. And those choices that you make in those circumstances that you find yourself in all build the person that you become. So certainly if I had never had that opportunity to meet Madame Sylvester, I doubt very much if I would be where I have been privileged to be today.
And I. That is one of the reasons why I wanted, during those years, when I had those freedoms and those resources, to start a school. I started the Todd Hunter School in the 1920s, and believe me, when I speak to young people today, and I love speaking to young people. I've always believed they're certainly our future. It would be surprised by how many do have that one teacher in their life, which truly inspired them and changed the entire course of their life.
And I would like to believe in our country, and I think President Kennedy is also in great support of this. In our country, I'd like to see programs , like the Peace Corps, where we do just that. Don't require. Students are young people to sign up for that.
But it is an opportunity to build that kind of character by going just exactly what you suggested, Tony, by going to other countries and working with people from other countries and in other circumstances and situations and learning as much from them as they can learn from us. The whole secret just to put them in that situation so that they can feel what's going on.
What it's like to take somebody food that doesn't have food or to help give somebody a warmth or a place to stay or something to drink when they don't have those things and see that look on somebody's face when they're like, , , you saved my life. I think that's a beautiful thought. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. Great. And it sounds like I'm embracing very many causes.
I've always been much more inspired by one individual that I see in need, rather than someone lecturing me or sending me information or written pieces about some cause that they want my support for. It's that one person, as you said, that looks you in the face, And appreciate you and hold your hand when you're able to share in any capacity with them.
It's that one individual that matters, which is why as First Lady, I've always encouraged people to write me letters, and I try to have my staff and I try to answer every single one of them. Let me ask you about this. There was one cause that I think that I had read about. I don't, again I don't know a lot about this. I just know a little, but wasn't there or isn't there a bill that you were trying to. Champion or you're involved with about making lynching black people illegal.
Yes, I certainly was deeply involved in what we sometimes think is the true beginnings of the entire civil rights movement. When I became first lady. And I knew I could not be just a cardboard first lady that has to look fine and well dressed and glamorous because I could never do that no matter how hard I tried. Or hosting banquets and parties and stuff, I had no experience with that. But getting involved with individual people for causes and issues that really matter in this country.
And , Franklin shared these values with me and these same ideals and same desire to make a difference in this country when he had this wonderful concept of a New Deal to help lift us out of the Great Depression. I always felt it was my job to make certain that this New Deal was a fair deal for everyone in this country, not just for me. Just white men.
And so among the population, the minorities, particularly the Negro population, didn't enjoy nearly the same protections or the same opportunities or the same rights that white people were taking for granted. It was my friend, , Mary McLeod Bassoon, who was a highly educated scholar, And very talented, an educator who was part of a White House Commission on Civil Rights.
And she is the one who opened up my eyes to the horrors that were part of lynching and how prevalent this crime was in the South. And it is very difficult for any of us to imagine that there were no specific laws against lynching. There were no anti lynching laws. And lynching was much more. much more than the act of the hanging itself. It involves sometimes whole communities.
And so it was Mary McLeod Bethune who actually showed me the photographs and the letters and introduced me to some of the victims families. And so it was then, yes, that we embraced that cause to push through Congress anti lynching laws. And even though Franklin was equally horrified. He sometimes felt that his hands were somewhat tied. He always accused me of trying to make these changes too rapidly and to move too quickly. I, we were always great partners.
He was more of the politician and I was the activist. And he always was careful to court me. The cooperation and the support of the Southern Delegates. And so there were all of the Southern Delegates in Congress who were very much against any kind of anti lynching laws because very often these practices involve elected officials or prominent citizens in some of these cities. And so Franklin was a little bit torn because he was afraid of losing that kind of support in Congress.
And so it took a very long time. But I can say finally, yes, , we put those laws into place. In fact, I will tell you one thing about Mary McLeod Batoon, who I learned so much from and we became the dearest of friends. In fact, I think that she was the best friend I had that was actually my own age. And she would come to the White House often for meetings and conferences and sessions with the President. And I was so excited when she came.
Sometimes she would just come to have tea or lunch with me. And when she arrived at the White House, I would always greet her as women very often do. You greet your friends with a hug and sometimes you give your friends a little peck on the cheek. And I had heard that Mary was coming to the White House and I went out on the front veranda to greet her. And as she arrived, she came out of the the limousine and came up the step.
I threw my arms around her and I gave her such a hug and a kiss on the cheek. I was so happy to see her. And all around were photographers. . They were all flashing pictures. Me embracing Mary Bethune. And the next day, the headlines in the newspapers read, Mrs. Roosevelt is kissing Negro women. And that is true.
And that is when J. Edgar Hoover, who was in charge of the FBI at that time, that is when, I've been called very many things, but I've been called, one of the worst things was a pervert, J. Edgar Hoover called me a pervert and started an FBI file on me as a pervert.
pervert and is a degenerate and because of some of the other programs that I advocated even as first lady called me a Socialist and a communist and you know Tony that FBI file on a person Dangerous to the government Eleanor Roosevelt my file was thicker than any other file at that time And that's true, and I, actually right now I'm kind of proud of that, did you have some run ins with Hoover prior to this? By the way, just to be clear, Edgar Hoover was the person that started the CIA, I think.
Is that right? Yes, that's true. And so, you were public enemy number one? Pretty much, yeah, I had the largest file. He also called me a subversive, just because I was engaged in all of these activities, these un American activities, like fighting for the rights of women fighting for minorities trying to help establish a , National Youth Administration. Because remember these years when we were first in office was the years of the Depression and the New Deal.
So, And the National Youth Administration was a program designed to find ways to keep our young people back in school or in a job and for the government to step in and help them achieve that. Because if you're afraid of communism, you would much rather have your young people working or being educated than you would standing in a food line. And yet he called that socialism or government overreach and such. And so I was already on his radar then, I believe.
, I developed a very thick skin because I received very much criticism and ghastly , political cartoons of me to make me look as hideous as possible and as a crazy woman as possible. And yet I, I've learned that you always just have to follow your heart because no matter what you do, you'll be criticized anyway. Yeah. Ian. I didn't have to worry about those southern delegates like, like poor Franklin did. I was able to be my own person and to let those kinds of insults just fly off my back.
. I want to tell you one story about being called names. Because people always made fun of the way that I looked. From my mother calling me granny, from grandmother Hall calling me an ugly duckling. I'd also been always called unattractive. Okay. And then as First Lady, I would call very much worse, as I just described. And I remember once during the time in our first or second term, I believe it was our second term, I was very flattered that I heard a rose was going to be named after me.
And I thought finally, someone finds some beauty that's going to name a rose after me. And I was very excited until I read the description of the rose in the garden catalog. The rose said, the description of the rose said, Not very good in a bed, much better up against the wall. So I hope you keep that story to yourself, Tony, because I know , it's a little bit edgy. That is a little racy for sure. We'll keep that one between you and me. That sounds fine. I probably would appreciate that.
I don't need any more bad publicity. That is for certain. , I don't know how you ever get bad publicity. It just amazes me that Hoover, for example, has this huge file on you. How does he not look at all this good that you're doing and see, hey, this is a person that just cares about, , people in general. . I am wondering you've mentioned Franklin several times President Roosevelt, when he began as president we were already in the great depression for a couple years, correct?
Yes, he was elected in 1932 and of course the stock market crashed in 1929 he had been serving as governor of new york since 1928 and as I stated I had the opportunities to get involved in a lot of Other issues during the 1920s because franklin was recovering in 1921 we were at a home in Campobello, Canada, where we vacationed often with our five children. Louis Howe, his advisor, was also there.
And Franklin was always very robust, and for many of the flaws that he might have had in his character he was always a very good father. And he was in the cold water up, up in Canada , frolicking in the waters with his children when he was suddenly stricken with, Excruciating pain in his limbs and had difficulty breathing, and it came on so incredibly suddenly. And our sons tried to drag him out of the water and up to the cabin where we were staying and none of us knew what to do.
We didn't know how to help him, and they called in doctors, and we called in different professionals and such because he was unable to move at all. And it took several days until Franklin was diagnosed with infantile paralysis, which we all know is polio. There was no vaccine for that disease at the time, and there was no cure. And so he was looking at a life of being paralyzed.
My mother in law, who was always in control of everything in our household, said, well, that is the end of Franklin's story from now on. He will retire as a gentleman , in the countryside, and I will be the one who will take care of him. Sounds like a handful. Well she truly was and ask me that again because I will go back and even back up a little bit what our courtship and marriage was like in our early life with Sarah always in the picture. At this point in time.
Sarah announced that she was going to take on the full time care of Franklin, and I had always been timid. I would always defer to Sarah. I would always try so very hard to make concessions because I so desperately wanted our family to work. I had never experienced a family before, and I knew that a family takes compromise and unconditional love and such, but finally, at that moment, after all those years of living under Sarah's thumb, I finally told her no. I said, Franklin.
It's too much to offer to this country. He had already lost the vice presidency in 1920, this was just one year later, so his political aspirations were not gone. And Louis Howe also recognized in Franklin the potential to be a great leader in this country, a leader with heart and compassion for all Americans. So I said, no, he will not retire.
And Louis Howe and I and the nurses, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, worked by massaging Franklin's arms and legs, trying to get those muscles to work again until he was finally able to use his arms and regain his breathing. It took him several years until 1928 to recover in Warm Springs, Georgia. And that is when Louis Howe told me that I had to be the eyes. And the ears and the legs of Franklin during the 1920s to keep that Roosevelt name alive.
And that is also one of the reasons why I did what I did during those years while Franklin was recovering. You know, he never did recover the use of his legs. , it seems somewhat remarkable. That , very few knew how serious his condition really was. And the press was so respectful and cooperative that they never photographed Franklin being carried from his wheelchair to the podium, where they would strap on leg braces so that he could stand strong and erect at the podium and give his speeches.
And then when he was finished, the cameras would go off again. And those aides and his staff would come in and carry him back to his wheelchair and take him back home. I've never heard that you , needed to be his legs. And I can see that now because it's hard to imagine him moving forward. In fact, there wouldn't have been a way for him to move forward and do all the good that he did had you not been there. Well, we were absolutely wonderful, effective.
And even though I had felt betrayed by some of the things that happened a few years earlier, and betrayed by him several times during the years that we were together. Well, that's really the next question that I was going to ask you. , after the two of you had six children, , just a couple of years after that, that he ends up , in this relationship where he's unfaithful, and it doesn't seem like that fazed you at all.
Well, it did faze me, it did faze me, and I had probably more difficulty really talking about it when I was younger, and the pain was so raw. I had tried to get along and do everything that Sarah wished, because Franklin did not want to upset his mother. My parents had warned me of that about Franklin, even before we married, that he was a bit of a mama's boy. And they told me that the FD and FDR stood for Feather Duster. And he would never stand up for me.
But yet I, as I said, I was desperate to have a family. And so I did everything that I could to keep that family strong and together. And yes, there was a time when we were very much in love. When I returned from Allenswood, and I came back to New York because my grandmother summoned me for coming out parties and such, and I never wanted to come out of anywhere. I was quite content at Allenswood, but I could not say no to Grandmother Hall.
But it's the same bowls and all of the events and the social things that I attended when I would make my way back to those soup kitchens and those shantytowns in New York to care for the people there the same way my father did. Inevitably, I also ran into Franklin, my fifth cousin once removed, and he also had an interest in making himself useful in those sections of the city where people were hungry. Or people were in need of homes and such.
And we would bump into each other at the soup kitchens or on the different committees or such. And that is, I think when we really fell in love when we shared that same passion. So initially when you first started dating or courting, this was not an arranged marriage. , there was a serious connection between you two. I'll tell you the very first time , my uncle Teddy had family reunions and such very often. And so I would.
Sometimes see Franklin on occasion as children, but there was one time when I was at my grandmother's home, Grandmother Hall's home, and my Aunt Pussy, and that was truly her name, Aunt Pussy, who had called me the ugly duckling of the family, thought that at age 14 I was finally old enough to attend her annual Christmas party. They had a big ballroom in my grandmother's mansion. And I had never.
Into a party before in my life and I was so excited and I allowed my aunt pussy and my grandmother to dress me and They curled my hair in big ringlets and they put white bows in my hair and a white Frock that was full of ruffles and white stockings that ended up in , white shoes with giant buckles on them and such. And I was all ruffles in bows and I thought I looked quite fine until I opened the doors to that ballroom. And when I opened the doors to that ballroom.
And I saw all the sophisticated young women in long, elegant ballgowns, waltzing across the floor, handsome young men in school uniforms or tuxedos and such, and suddenly they all stopped, and they all looked at me, and I could hear them giggling and see them pointing at me. And finally I looked down at myself and I realized how ridiculous I really looked. , I backed up against the wall and tried to actually make myself invisible. I didn't know where to run or what to do.
And I don't know how long I stood up against that wall when suddenly I was amazed that someone was actually approaching me and I could see by his feet it was a young man. And he put out his hand. Inviting me to dance, and that is when I finally looked up into the face of my fifth cousin, once removed, Franklin Roosevelt. He was the only one kind enough to even acknowledge me at that party, and I will never forget that.
And remarkably, when I was returning from Allenswood, three, four years later, who would I meet on a train back to New York, but Franklin once again, and by this time, I was 19 years old.
And Franklin almost didn't recognize me because I was a changed woman after being with Madame Sylvester for those years and I'd been to places and I had ideas and I had read, oh, so many books and we talked and we talked and became reacquainted until his mother, Sarah, missed him and came looking for him on the train and she was very upset that he had neglected her for so long.
And into Franklin uh, Back and forth, once we were at New York, at the social events, yes, but also in the city and also at very many of these agencies that were dedicated to helping the poor people. She became very upset because I was nowhere attractive enough or sophisticated enough for her son, Franklin. She was a widow. She had been a widow for ten years and she always dressed in black. And Franklin Was her only son. He tried to bribe him with trips to Europe and such to break up with me.
When we announced that we were to be engaged, he tried everything that she did to squelch that relationship, but it didn't work at that time. We were very much in love. And we were married in 1905 by my uncle, president Theodore Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt married you to Theodore Roosevelt. Yes. Theodore Roosevelt married us. And of course, Franklin and his mother were from the Hyde Park Roosevelts, and we were the Oyster Bay Roosevelt, and he was president.
I had no father to give me away, and Franklin had always been very kind to me when I was a young girl, and he was to marry us, and he was going to be in New York anyway that day. It was St. Patrick's Day in New York City, and it might sound very glamorous, but I will tell you, I was never the center of attention, even at my own wedding, because all the guests were much more interested in President Roosevelt being at that wedding than they were to see me.
Or Franklin. And I do remember that on our honeymoon, I wrote my mother in law every single day. And I begged her, I said, I just hope that someday you will come to love me just a little. And when we returned from our honeymoon, Sarah, as a wedding gift, had purchased a town home for me. for me and for Franklin right in Hyde Park. And she purchased one for herself right next door.
And actually, Tony, on every single floor, there were doors that connected so that Sarah could go back and forth as she pleased on every floor. We ate all of our dinners together, all of our meals together. Franklin would sit at the head of the table and she would sit at the other head. There were two beautiful wing chairs by the fireplace in the den and one was for Franklin and one was for Sarah.
And she had chosen all of the furniture, all of the linens, all of the silver, hired all of the help, and she had done everything the way that she wanted it. And when I thought I wanted to just have a little bit of that space that was my very own, I was discouraged because we could not upset Mama. I will go one more further, if you bear with me, because I also just need to state her influence on our entire family.
You know, I did have a first child, Anna, and yet I had no idea how to be a mother. Yeah. Yeah. I'd never experienced that kind of love or care. And so I did what any new mother might do who was feeling insecure, and I read a lot of books. And I read that a newborn baby really can benefit from some good fresh air. And so I took baby Anna and I swaddled her up and I put her in what we called then baby cages.
I think now you might call them a bassinet or such, but I put her in this little baby cage and I knew she needed fresh air, so I hung it out the window. Wow. And the only problem with that, now looking back It's that it was in March, so it was rather chilly and it was on the third floor.
And so when some of the neighbors began to call the authorities that there's a baby hanging out of the third floor window that is when Sarah said, Alright, from now on you've proven that you don't know how to be a mother. From now on I will take over all of the child rearing. Wow. And she did.
Even when our four sons were born, and she took over the child rearing, she purchased all their clothes, chose their tutors and their schools, and decided which toys they should, all the discipline, everything was up to Sarah. Roosevelt was totally okay with all that? Well, don't forget what my friend had warned me about. He was a bit of a mama's boy and his aspirations and his interest, his focus was on something much greater. I mean, he was getting into politics.
was not a very successful attorney and so he thought he should go into politics. He was a state senator for a while and then appointed assistant secretary of the Navy once the war broke out. But it was my son, James, actually, who told me Sarah. I had said to James and to Franklin and the other boys that I'm your real mother, Sarah, only bore you. And so, With that I was always, and this is a regret of mine, that I really didn't know my children as children ever. , she was raising them.
And I was involved in all of these other things, but always trying to be useful in somewhere else if I wasn't needed at home. In fact, Sarah was most happy when I wasn't at home, when I was off doing something else.
When Franklin was Assistant Secretary of the Navy during World War I, when There were a lot of social obligations for him because they were based in Washington, D. C. and then he was sent overseas, but very often I was still very insecure and uncomfortable in those kinds of social situations. I always felt like that girl in the white ruffly dress that people were laughing at and snickering at.
And so when I was either expecting children or I had children at home, I very often turned down his invitations to attend some of those functions with him. And I encouraged him then to go ahead and go with someone else so that he would have a companion. When he traveled overseas during World War I, and the war was wrapping up there, , he sent a telegram that he was going to be returning home. He wasn't feeling well, we think he had a bit of a pandemic.
Blue, that was going around at that time, his suitcases arrived before he did. And trying my hardest to be a dutiful wife, I thought he would appreciate it if I unpacked those suitcases for him. And that is when, unpacking those suitcases, out tumbled a little package of letters tied in blue ribbon. And they were love letters. Those were the love letters with Lucy Mercer. . My social secretary, who I had trusted. who knew every intimate detail about me and about Franklin.
And so blindly, I had encouraged her to often attend some of these functions with Franklin when I was unable or not feeling confident enough to do that. And it had been going on for years right under my nose. And it seemed then, it was, no, I don't, I felt like the world, my world collapsed on me that day. Everything, fell apart. Everything that I thought was real turned out to be a lie. And the hurt that even made it more, more intensified was that so many people knew about it.
And I was the only one who seemingly did not. Did his mother know about it? I don't think she knew about it at that time. But my own children, Anna knew about it. And my cousin Alice Roosevelt knew about it. And it seemed very many people who were in and out of that social circle knew about it. . What was Sarah's reaction about this? Sarah was mortified. And she stood up and she said there will be no divorce in the Roosevelt family. She absolutely forbid it.
Now Sarah controlled very much of the Roosevelt fortune. And she threatened to cut Franklin off completely financially. , I offered Franklin a divorce. I felt if he truly loved her, and it was very difficult sometimes for me to handle these intense emotional relationships, romantic relationships, I've always struggled. And yet it was Sarah who put her foot down and said there will be no divorce.
And people who supported Franklin also, like Louis Howe, warned him that a divorce in that time would have ruined his political career. And so he promised never to see Lucy Mercer again. And we reconciled. And by that time we already had our five children. Did he follow through with that? Well, that is a remarkable question. We were never truly as men and wives again in the true sense of the word.
But we built a sense of trust and partnership through all those years as governor and when he was serving as president and such. And yet, when I received the telegram that Franklin had passed in Warm Springs, Georgia. He had been feeling very ill, polio, and in the stress of all of his work and four terms in office. He was elected for the fourth time that he was suffering and not physically well.
He had gone to Warm Springs to recover and that is where I received the telegram that he had passed. And when I rushed there, Anna was with him and she reluctantly also shared that Lucy Mercer was also with him when he died. Thank you. And then again, the ultimate betrayal, because not only had he been in contact, she had married and had a family, but she always came back to Franklin and Anna and some of the other children had known that this relationship had continued.
But if you weren't really close with them and they were really close with him, I guess you could see why they would keep his secret. And they truly loved their father. And I think it was Anna who tried to explain to me that that Franklin was.
In some ways, very needy himself, and people always were, he was very social, and he was always the life of the party and such, and people were always wanting to , have access to him because of his power and his influence and such, and she said, Anna told me that He just needed someone to love him completely intentionally and just for himself, and who he was. . As a man, not as the most powerful person in the world, for four terms. That is exactly right. That is exactly right.
That helped me reconcile with his behavior, his choices and even the choices that my children made to protect him and in a way not telling me was also their goal. There's a fire to protect me. Wow. Ellen horror was more patient than I would ever be. Sara Roosevelt was a handful. Really it is astounding with people like Sarah in her life and her husband betraying her that she was able to remain focused and do all the good that she did.
In the next episode, she'll continue to talk about the obstacles she had to overcome on her quest to be useful at all times As well as the cost of dedicating her life to her work. I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast. If you haven't yet subscribed now, and we'll see you at the next episode of the calling history podcast with part two of Eleanor Roosevelt.