Welcome back to part two of Anne Frank. In the last episode, we talked about the secret room and has been living in for the last two years. She talked about the risk that others were taking to smuggle in often rotten food. And she shared some of her experiences with the other, she was hiding with in this episode, she's going to talk about why and how she remains optimistic her belief in God, despite all that she has seen and whether or not she hates Hitler. Before this episode starts.
I want you to know that I was a little uncomfortable going back and listening to myself, ask these questions. Her circumstances are so dire, literally life and death surrounds her every move. And I found myself trying to unsuccessfully break the tension with levity and laughter in a time where nothing is really that funny. Yet, I will say the thing that is so amazing about Anne Frank, despite always living in fear of the Nazis, finding her.
She remained optimistic which makes her legacy even more heroic. Let me go back to the rooms that you're in for a minute here. By the way, I appreciate you sharing all this information. This is why some, this is why everybody's so interested, in your writings, because I, it's just, well, it's just, it's incredible that you're capable of handling all this. These are adult problems.
I mean, you started dealing with this when you were 13, which I understand by the way, why you didn't, weren't interested in Peter right away. Cause. 13 year old girls probably aren't interested in boys but 15 year old girls probably are. I mean, these are big problems. And yeah, , so you had mentioned a potatoes a couple of times that you were low on potatoes and they would try to bring potatoes. And there was a guy who had potatoes is most of the food that you're getting in there.
Is it bland like that? Oh. It is very bland and sometimes it's, it feels like it's already spoiled before we eat it. There's this smell of kale. Do you know kale? I do. And you mentioned that earlier. What, why is the kale so smelly? I don't understand. It's old and it's in these buckets with water I guess to keep it fresh, but it doesn't smell like it is. It has such a stench and a smell. Oof, It sounds terrible, but do you have to eat it? Well, sometimes it's all we have.
Everything is very bland. And of course, there's eight of us here, and we all have to share. But on my fifteenth birthday, I did get two bottles of yogurt. It was great. and a spice cake and some jam. That was lovely. is that what me brought you is because she knew it was your birthday. Yes. Oh, she sounds very decent. Very sounds like a very decent person.
So let's go back for a minute to what your life was before all of this happened before you had to be locked in this room for years because some crazy man decides that he wants to abuse , a huge group of people. What was your life before this? Well, I love school even though, like I said, I would get in trouble quite often because I would talk too much. But I think it's only because I love people and because I want to write.
I think I want to talk, and I want to meet people, and I want to talk to people. And so, I always loved school, and learning new things, and languages. And I loved the cinema, and movie stars, and just thinking about I would be like when I get older, and traveling. And, I think I did things that every girl my age probably did. I had many friends, and I don't think there was anything particularly special about me. , you left Germany at a very young age.
So most of your schooling actually was in Amsterdam, correct? Yes, yes, So did you get good grades? yes, I got very good grades. And are you continuing your studies somehow in the annex? Yes, I learned French and algebra and history. Margot and I have to study during the day. And, oh, you study because that's when you have to be quiet. Yes. So, did Meep bring you textbooks to study from? Is that what you're working off of?
, yes, I am working with textbooks my father had brought some before we moved in, and then I brought one with me, but yes, me or one of the other people will bring us textbooks from time to time so we can keep up with our studies so that when we get out, we can continue with our schooling, I see. So your father is giving you a push so that when you get out, you're not behind the other children. yes? Gosh, I like your dad. He sounds amazing.
By the way, if I have another child and it's a girl, I'm naming her Meep. I just want you to know that. I am like I love this name and it would stand for somebody that is, , obviously is doing good at incredible risk of themselves. I just love that name. Yes, So, so when, so now you're going to school, you have a lot of friends in Amsterdam, you're doing well in school.
The teachers think you talk too much, but really that's because there's a lot going on in your brain and they don't realize and then when did that change? to where you found out, Oh my gosh, , I can't go to school in Amsterdam anymore. Was that a sudden shift or was it gradual? I'm not sure I understand Well, when the Germans invaded Amsterdam , your life didn't immediately change that day, did it?
No, but they started to make life difficult for us and we had to register and all the Jews had to wear a Star of David on their clothes and if you had a lot of money or Possessions you had to tell them about it. Oh, geez.
so that happened around Sometime in 1942 it happened and we, yeah, we had to wear yellow stars on our clothes so everyone knew that you were Jewish and, there were so many restrictions put upon us the hours that we would go to school, where we went to school we couldn't go into certain stores, they wouldn't serve Jewish people, so a lot of restrictions. everything that they did in Germany, they just took that template and just started doing that exact same thing in Amsterdam.
And so did that eventually your schooling where they said you can no longer go to this school because you're Jewish or you need to go to a different school or you can't go to school at all? Did that change at all? Because it appears to me that they maybe wouldn't want to. The Jewish people mixing with the non Jewish people. Yes, I wasn't allowed to go to school with Christian children, I could only go to school with Jewish children, and it was only certain hours it was just very restricted.
Did they try, since they have all the Jewish children in one school, did they try to teach you something different than they were teaching the other kids? Were they teaching you that Jews were bad? Was that different in any way? Or are they just teaching you math and English?
Well, I don't know what the others were taught, since I really wasn't allowed to speak to my friends that were not Jewish, but, yes, we had our basic studies, algebra, history, Dutch, but it was more about telling us the dangers out there, I think, and to remind us where to go, where not to go. For the most part, it was trying to maintain, I guess, a sense of a new normalcy.
Jeez. Well, I know that if your dad could have figured out a way to get you to somewhere safe, like the United States, he would have been all over that. He would have swam across the ocean with you on his back. If he could have. So, so tell me what the people that are in the annex right now, there's a total of eight of them. So it is your dad, your mother. There's the four of you. Then you've got the Van Pels, and then you've got Fritz, who we're gonna call the idiot. He's the dentist, right?
Right. Okay. And Peter? And Peter. Okay, good. So those are the eight. And the one that you like the least is the one that you call the idiot. Yes. you call Dussel, right? Yes, Mr. Doofso. Okay. And these people, they're not all related to you, correct? Yes, correct. Okay. Are any of them related to you except your father and your mother Well, Margo, she's my right? Your sister. How did no, they're not. they're not.
So how did they manage to gain the trust of whoever they needed to get into , this safe place with you? Well, Mr. and Mrs. Bompell were friends of our family. Close friends. So, after we set up everything, my father, and I don't know how, told them they could come. But I think that was talked about before we moved in.
Mr. Dussel wasn't planned, but we were hearing such awful stories about the outside world, and we had a little more room to spare, and, , it was just as scary with seven people as it was with eight people, so we felt bad, so we ended up taking him in, too. Do you remember when you first went into hiding like that day? Do you remember your feelings, like what they were just like at that exact moment?
I certainly didn't think that we would be here this long, and I remember smelling the annex, and it was damp, and it leaned to one side, but although maybe it wasn't an ideal hiding place, I didn't loathe it either. It felt more like being on vacation in a very peculiar boarding house. Do you feel when you're there now, do you feel like there's a routine in place where it feels like home. I mean, it's an awful home, but it just feels like home now. Does it, are you totally used to it?
Some days I feel like I have my moments where I just want to scream. I just want to go outside. Ride my bicycle, smell the fresh air, see the sun, but I guess for the most part, yes, I feel this is my life right now. And I'm so grateful for my diary because it just allows me to express all that is within me. It seems like you use your diary as a tool to keep yourself clear and keep yourself strong. What would you like to see happen to that?
When you leave, I mean, I've told you that people, , have read it, but what would you hope would happen? I don't know if I can imagine sharing my diary with people, with the world, but I think excerpts from it, maybe, because I would love for it to become a novel someday. And I would love to become a famous writer, but I'm sure some of it no one would be interested in, because it's just a teenager talking at points.
Are there favorite parts of your diary things that you've written that you're very proud of? Yes, there are. I love when I write things that sound like they're written by someone twice my age. And I don't know where it comes from, but I just let myself write. I don't restrict my thoughts. I just, Write what's in my heart and what I feel and about people and my observations. And it's so good because there's so much I can't say out loud. So much I can't say to people.
Even though, like, Mommy, Oh, sometimes she drives me just nuts, and I want to yell at her and tell her to stop treating me like a little girl. feel like I can't say that. But I can in my diary. I can say anything I want, and it's my best friend, and I named her Kitty, and I tell her everything. Even the things about Peter. I wish I could tell my best friend, but now It's her, Your diary is your best friend in that place. yes. Yeah. So you said your mom, we haven't talked about your mom at all.
And it seems like your dad overshadows everything because he's so on top of everything. What kind of person is your mom? Do you treats me like I'm a little girl. And I don't think I'm a little girl. I think I'm really becoming a young woman. And I think a lot of my writing speaks for itself, that I'm getting older and growing up. She always has to butt in you know, things like, eat your vegetables, Anne, and clean up after yourself, Anne, and don't talk so much.
I feel like she always favours Margot. that Margot is a better daughter than I am. I just get so, oof, I just get frustrated sometimes with her, and I wish I could yell at her, but I don't, and I just keep it all inside because I don't want to upset my father. feel like she treats you the exact opposite the way your father does? It seems like your father, Maybe it's kind of thrusting you into the adult world because of these big problems that have to be dealt with, or maybe not.
Maybe he's trying to protect you, but is it the opposite? Or does your dad treat you that way, but just not as, as vocally as your mom?
, I think my father has more respect for me and for my writing, and he knows it's important to me, and I think mommy probably thinks That it's rubbish and that it's silly and it doesn't mean anything and Oh, I have so many arguments with her and one time we were preparing strawberries and I was saving a seat for peter But then she sat there and I told her that it was for peter but she didn't care and she sat there anyways and She wanted to help too and she just doesn't understand me.
I wonder did this change after you were in the annex for a while? I think it's different, or at least I notice it more now. But I think before going into hiding, I had more freedom. And more space and more time to do what I wanted to do. And now we're so stuck together that I guess I notice it more. And, Yeah, it would affect anybody I think. yes.
Do you seem like you have a completely different view of life than your mom has are you going to want to grow up to be completely different than she is? Or is there anything about her that you'd like, , to be a quality of yours in the future? She does make good soup. But other than that no. I don't think she cares about writing. I think I want to be very different from her. I don't think I want to get married and have children. I want to travel the world.
I want to study and learn so many languages and meet people and be famous. You know, all these actors that you see in the cinema, , they're not nearly as smart as you are, even at your age. And they all need words to say on the screen. And so that's, maybe that ends up being your job that you later on, you're the one that, that writes those scripts for those movies. Oh, I would like that. I don't know if I'm good enough for that, but I would like that.
I think you could probably get there for sure. All right. I want to talk about something really challenging right now, I think. And that is, I want to talk about God for a second. What is your relationship with God? What are your thoughts on religion right now? It seems like, , in these times when there's war and people murdering one another, or actually one person murdering a lot of people, it seems like that would be topic to be comfortable with. So I'm curious what your thoughts are.
I do believe in God, and I don't hate God, even though we are going through such a difficult time. A horrible time. . I feel at peace with him in some way. Like, at night, I peek out in the window and I look right into the depths of nature and God, and then I'm happy. Really happy. And I feel like so long as I have Peter and the joy in nature and good health, all the while one has that one can always Recapture happiness.
Riches can all be lost, but the happiness that you feel in your heart can only be veiled, and it will still bring you happiness again and again. As long as you live, as long as you look fearlessly up into the heavens, as long as you know that you are pure within, it will still bring you happiness.
When you talk about the beauty of the world it's extraordinary that you can see all of this beauty and earlier you had mentioned looking out the window and you said you wrote about the chestnut tree, and I guess this is when you're talking about seeing nature and feeling nature. I'm curious back then when you did mention the chestnut tree, I think that's what you're talking about right now. What is it about that tree that stands out? It's beautiful.
I love that the tree is outside, that it's free, that no one cares if it's a chestnut tree or any kind of other tree. No one judges the tree. I guess in ways I'm envious of the tree because it's outside and I long to be outside.. Yes, Outside is where everything is free. Outside is where traveling is. Outside is where people are and inside is it's a little prison.
Yeah. So when you are looking outside and you're peeking outside the window, and I'm sure that you're being really careful not to move curtains and, and such, I have to believe that there have been times where you're peeking out the curtains and maybe somebody would look directly at you and you would think that you had been seen.
there any incidents I look out so late at night that I can't really see anyone walking around and I think people aren't allowed to walk outside, maybe at a certain time, Oh yeah. but yes, I do try to remain very vigilant and be careful. What do you do about the weather? it's been two years. I'm going to guess that sometimes it's cold and sometimes it's hot what do you do when it's freezing cold in there or it's really hot?
Yes, when it's cold we put many layers on, sweaters, coats, that sort of thing. Depending on what time of day it is, we might be able to have a cup of soup or tea. Sometimes when it's very warm, that's when we have to worry about food. Spoiling. It's probably nice when it's colder because the kale doesn't rot. Mmm. Well, then again, kale doesn't grow when it's cold either. So No. , so.
Cool. Basically what you do when it's cold is you just have to put blankets on and clothes and just bundle up and just get by. Does it get extremely cold there? It's manageable. . But, yes, sometimes we have to wear many layers and we just do the best we can. You had said that you don't hate God. And I'm glad to hear that, but I'm wondering if there's anybody that you do hate. I feel bad saying this, but sometimes I feel like I hate mommy.
But, then I feel bad saying that because we're just different. We're just different from each other. We're like night and day, ? I know you said that you weren't wanting to have children when you grow up, but I wonder , if you would parent similar, because, you know,, it's certainly different being a mother than it is being the child. I think I would be more like my father.
I think I would encourage them to have their own thoughts and their own mind and be their own person and let them grow and grow up and not treat them like, , children all the time. Yeah, that's great advice. If you treat them like children all the time, then they stay children. And if you let them grow, then they turn into adults. Do you hate Hitler? Hmm. . I don't understand Hitler.
I don't understand the way he feels for people that he doesn't even know just because they're different or he wants to blame them for something that maybe they didn't even do. Want to hate anyone. I really want to still find good in people. I think that people are really good at heart, and he probably didn't start out being this way. Maybe he had people in his life that were mean to him, or put in situations that caused him to be like this. I don't ever want to be like him.
I don't ever want to hate people that I don't know for No good reason. I This is exactly what it sounds like in your diary. It's such. An adult thought that you have there to understand, to even give him grace and say that something must have happened to him and something probably did, but it's just, it's amazing that somebody can hate a whole group of people that they don't even know that's incredible. You'd mentioned the typewriter a little bit ago.
Do you wish that the typewriter was quiet and you could have it up there, or do you prefer to write? think I'm so used to writing that I like writing better. So what if you could write anything? What if you had all the paper and space and you had a desk right out underneath the chestnut tree and you could write whatever you wanted? What would that be? What would I write about?
Yeah. Decided that war wasn't good, and so he got a job at a hardware store, and everybody's getting along, What would you like to write about? think I want to write something that inspires people, that gives them hope, that shows people in a different light, maybe. Something that's meaningful. But then I also picture myself writing something that is not true. that is made up, and that it's so fascinating that people can't put the book down, not for one second, because I wrote it.
You want to be famous! You want to write stuff that entertains people! Yes. It in our time, it appears that there have been many edits that were made in your journal as if you were trying to perfect it for publication later . Is any of that true? Yes. I always thought that there was a lot in my diary that speaks, and I always thought someday I would write it into a book. a novel, because people are so interesting to me. I feel like we all live, but we don't get the where or the why.
We all live with the object of being happy. Our lives are all different, and yet the same. That's an interesting observation of human nature. Are there any other significant observations of human nature that, that you've come to over the years as you've been writing. Oh I feel like there, there have been so many observations over the years, and yes, especially the people that I'm stuck with right now. Well, like, Mummy and Mrs. Von Pell. They always seem to fight about what to cook.
And sometimes Mrs. Von Pell will starting on me that I don't, , eat enough of this or that. And then Mummy gets involved and it just seems like the same conversations every day. Sometimes a bit boring. I'm glad that I have my diary to sometimes write more interesting things, I think, that I'm observing in real life. do you feel like your mother and Mrs. Van Pal that they live monotonous, boring lives? Yes. Yes, You would never do that , would you? No. No. I never want to be boring.
I never want to do the same thing again and again, which is what we have to do here every day. Every day is such a strict Schedule, about when we eat and when our time it is to use the toilet, and when we nap, and when we have coffee, and when we have to put the lights out, and all of that. , do you ever go back and read the things that you wrote when you were 13? And. Are surprised maybe that, that's the way that you were thinking, because 13 to 15, there, there's a lot of growing there.
Yes. Sometimes I do. And sometimes I'll change a word here, or there, and then sometimes I don't want to think about everything we've been through here, because. It's so painful and sad, and, oh, I can't wait for the day when we are rescued and when the war is over. But there is excellent news of the invasion, so I remain hopeful. What do you think the odds are that you're going to be found before the war ends? I know it's a terrible thought.
How do you It's something I think about all the time, every day. Every day. , no one can be sloppy, no one can think for a moment that we can do this or that without being heard or discovered. It's something I think about every day. deal with the fear of that? I think somehow, when I write about the fear, that it no longer lives inside me. And I put my words down in my diary, and it lives somewhere else now. not in me, to hold and carry.
That's why people are so interested in your diary in our time, because all of that pain and all of that fear and all of that uncertainty, you can just put it in that book and then not have to worry about it anymore. Is that what it looks like? Yes, exactly. somewhere else. All right. So I've a couple last questions. , out of the people that are in the annex, who's the most selfish of the people and why? you.
I feel like Mr. Von Pell sometimes can be selfish because He doesn't like to pay attention to the rules. I feel like sometimes I've seen him sneak an extra piece of this or that at dinner. And, that's selfish. . So he steals food. Yes, I mean, Do you say something to him? . No, I'm not a tattletale like Mr. Dussel. I love it that you renamed him. It is his name actually Fritz Pfeffer. Is that the guy we're talking about?
Yes. , I only call him Doocle in my diary so that no one knows who I'm talking about. That only makes sense. You're not going to go to some adult and call him an idiot. Yeah. That wouldn't go over very well in an enclosed space. No. No, especially because I have to share the room with him and I have to share the desk with him and he doesn't understand that and sometimes he likes to use the desk far longer than he should and then I have to tell him and then Mommy always takes his side.
I hate that. When you leave this place, the war ends and you're allowed to leave and , of course your dad will provide a nice home for you and you have your own desk and place to write, obviously you're going to do traveling and you're going to meet people and do all that. But if it goes the other direction and you end up in one of the concentration camps, would you still write there? Would I still write in the concentration Yeah. If that ended up, if you ended up having to go there.
Yes, I think I would have to. I think it would be the only thing to keep me sane. Well, we'll certainly hope that's not going to happen. I am so thankful that you took this time to talk to me today and I'm just, it's been wonderful meeting you. I'm wondering if you would have anything that you'd like to say to, , the people of our time. There'll be, , children in school that will listen to this and there'll be adults that will hear this.
Is there anything you'd like to say to either or both of those groups? I hope that this hatred will end and that people will be kinder to people. And if you don't know someone, maybe you won't have this hatred in your heart for them. Maybe you'll be more open minded and get to know people. I feel like whoever is happy will make others happy too. And I just think we need more acceptance in the world and more kindness so that we can all live with one another peacefully in this world.
Well, I think that is very well said. And I thank you so much for the time, and I'm wishing you the best of whatever happens next. Thank you so much. This is, it has been wonderful to talk to you and I wish you all the best. The day after this recording, the secret annex was discovered by the Nazis and everyone in it was taken to the concentration camps.
I have to believe that somehow and found a way to write something while she was there, but no writings were ever recovered instead, just weeks after the camps were liberated. And died of disease. No one in her family survived the concentration camps, except for her father auto. After receiving his freedom.
He met up with his friends, Jan and meep define that they had collected a bunch of scraps of papers that Ann had left behind as well as her diary auto being the extraordinary human being that he was fulfilled Ann's wish and published the diary since then. Anne Frank's diary has given generations of personal firsthand account. Of life in hiding during the Holocaust, her writings offer a poignant and relatable perspective on the horrors of war and the resilience of the human spirit
in the worst of times . Thank you for listening. And don't forget that when you tell a friend about the calling history podcast. Uh, lost sock finds its mate I'm Tony Dean. And until next time I'm a history.