Um, Tony Dean. And today we'll be calling history to speak with Anne Frank. She'll be answering our call on August 3rd, 1944 at the age of 15. One day before she'll be found, arrested and taken to the concentration camps. In 1933 Hitler took control of Germany. He immediately started making life very difficult for the Jewish community. And Frank's father Otto realized that this was going to be a huge problem. And he made arrangements for his family to move to Amsterdam.
But soon after when the Germans invaded Amsterdam, once again, their family was in jeopardy auto attempted to move the family to the United States. But the building with their paperwork was bombed by the Germans and his request for a visa was lost, realizing that he had to do something. He made arrangements for his family to be hidden in a room that is now called the secret annex, where Anne Frank, her family, and a few others hid for nearly two years.
At the time and may have seemed like a normal teenage girl, but years later after her diary was read, the world would know what a prolific writer she was and how her powerful firsthand account of the Holocaust provided an intimate glimpse into the life of a Jewish girl, hiding from the Nazis. The diary captures her thoughts, fears, and hopes during this harrowing time, it humanized the atrocities yet. Despite all she did by giving a voice to millions who quietly suffered.
She was still a teenage girl that liked to go to the movies and wanted to be a journalist. Ladies and gentlemen, fellow history, lovers, and movie stars everywhere I give you. And Frank. Hello. Is that you? Anne? Hello. Hello, Anne. Yes. And I am so happy to be speaking with you today. My name is Tony Dean and I'm talking to you from the future in the 21st century.
That device that you're holding right now is called a smartphone and it allows us to speak as if you and I were outside sitting on a bench together before all this war stuff happened. And it also allows me to share a record of our conversation with People around the world. I was hoping I could ask you some questions today, but before I do, I understand this is a strange introduction. Can I answer any questions that you might have first? Oh. I don't know yet. I've, this is fascinating.
I've never done anything like this before. It makes me feel like I should be asking you questions, because someday I'd like to be a journalist. A real journalist. Well, I'm not surprised to hear you say that at all, because , as I was learning about you and your dreams of being a journalist, like your diary, that red checkered diary that you have. . Everybody in our time knows about that.
And so, I think you are a journalist, but it sounds like right now you're out of words, which probably doesn't happen very often. It, it doesn't. In fact, in school I would always get in trouble for talking too much, and I would have to stay afterwards to write a hundred times that I would not talk too much. I can't believe that people know of my words. Oh, they definitely do. , , it is clear through your writing that you have a gift for this.
And I hope that you continue writing because, yeah, your words have moved a lot of people over the years. And they're really important considering some of the times that you're dealing with right now. Could you give me an idea what the situation looks like right now? Well, right now, I mean, we have been in hiding, well, almost two years. We came here on the 6th of July, 1942. I can't believe that we've been here this long. I never thought we would be here this long.
It's so hard to be here in such a small space. I long for everything. I long for sunshine and to ride my bicycle. I want to go to the cinema with my friends, see the world, travel, do so many things. All of us are just trying to hang in there, although we do hear positive reports on the radio sometimes, and we are hopeful that we will be rescued and saved. And sometimes, when I look into the heavens, I think it will all come right, that this cruelty will end.
And that peace and tranquility will return. Well, I will tell you it is my responsibility not to tell you too much about the future because I don't want to change anything because, and I want to give you a hope at the same time, because things do actually somehow turn out. It's probably not the best case, exactly what you would want to happen. But things do find a way to to resolve themselves. , but I know it does,, it doesn't feel that way right now.
What kind of reports do you hear on the radio? Well, we are only allowed to go and listen to the radio when no one is down there working. So, on holidays, or the weekends, or after the workers leave at half past five, then we are allowed to go down. We are very hopeful, and we've heard that they've Landed in different places, the people from England, the English soldiers. And they're trying to get the Germans out and regain control. But sometimes it's scary. I've heard sirens.
And the food is running out, too. We used to have so many potatoes, but we don't. And the smell of the kale in the buckets. It's scary. Oh, I cannot bear to smell it anymore. I feel like I've lost my appetite, but I will starve if I have to, if it means not being discovered. That would be too much to That would be the worst if that was to happen. Have you been close to being discovered? Well, yes, twice now since we have been here in the annex.
One time there was a break in downstairs, but you see, we have a bookshelf hiding us. So, unless you knew we were here, we are upstairs, so I think it is a good hiding place. But yes, twice now, we have almost thought we would be discovered. Were you able to tell who was close to discovering you? Were they workers or were they the Germans? No, I don't think they were the Germans. I don't know who they were, but we didn't hear Germans yelling or anything. I feel like we would have if it was them.
, so tell me about, when you had said that the only time you can go downstairs and listen to the radio when that you said, when they're not down there working. And my understanding is, is that the the place that you're in right now, this, which we call the secret annex. I don't know if that's what you call it, but on the other side of that bookshelf that allows you to go into, is it your. Is that an, is that a residential home or is that your, a building that your dad owned or used to own?
Like where's down there? Yes, so, my father, Otto Frank, but I call him Pim, he worked there, and it's an Opecta company. It's a factory that makes jam, so that is his office and we have his very trusted workers helping us hide. So he, some of the people that he used to employ, they're the ones helping you stay hidden in the annex. , yes, that is right, yes. So then you, but you actually do leave that area that you're in and you go down into that place when the workers aren't there.
And so what else is down there? You have a radio down there. What else is down there? Well, it is the only place that has hot water, so we use the kitchen hot water to clean clothes or to bathe a little bit and help us to clean up. We don't have any hot water where we are. It is the only place. Is it the place that he works or is it a place where, is it your old apartment? I guess I don't understand what else is down there.
Well, down there is the office where my father used to work, but, He no longer does. But downstairs, there is also a typewriter and machines, and, the kitchen with hot water, and, sometimes there is extra bread there that is left by the workers. And, sometimes on Sundays, oh, I don't like Sundays. They're the most miserable day of the week. I really don't like Sundays. Just wander from one room to the next, down the stairs and back up again.
That is the day we can spread out a little more and everyone just gets up later. I just feel like a trapped bird in a cage of some kind. Total darkness. We can't go outside. No fresh air. No laughter. So you haven't gone outside for almost two years. Is that right? Yes, that is right. Sometimes though, , we do take the curtains off the window so I can look out a little bit. There is a beautiful chestnut tree that I love so much. Sometimes I have written about that in my diary.
So have you observed any consequences of not being able to be out in the sun? Any physical consequences from any of the people that are in the annex? I don't know that I have ever directly thought about that. That their ailments are directly from not being in the sun., I am the youngest one. I'm fifteen. There are much older people here. My father, my mother, and then Mr. and Mrs. Von Pell, and Mr. Pfeffer. I understand there's a boy about your age in there. Okay. Peter.
Now you said there was no laughing, but as soon as I mentioned his name there is apparently there is a little bit of laughing Do you get along with Peter? Well, we do now, yes. When he first came in, I found him rather boring. He has become a close friend to me. I used to think he was in love with Margot, but I don't think that anymore. Sometimes make a special effort not to look at him too much because when I do, sometimes he's looking back at me. He said I was pretty, but I don't think so.
He said when I smile, he likes my dimple. I know I'm not pretty. I'll never be pretty. I'm okay with that. I think everybody in our time thinks that you're both pretty and intelligent and I'm sure Peter feels the exact same way I don't think it's because you're the only one that your age. In fact One thing about boys is boys kiss pretty girls and I read that there was some kissing going on. Is that true? You You read that? I did, In my diary? I'm turning red. Yes, we did cuddle and kiss.
I had never kissed a boy before. It was my first kiss. It gave me a warm feeling inside. A lovely feeling inside. I'll never forget it. I wonder why initially you found Peter to be boring and then what changed where he was interesting. That's a good question. I don't think I was really into boys when I first met him. Much more into my writing. I think I just had to get to know him a bit more, ask more questions, and we are so lonely here.
If Mr. and Mrs. Von Pell had a daughter, I would want to get to know her too. Yeah, that makes sense. Because even though you've got a bunch of people , , in that area it's still very lonely because you never get to really spend time with new people, is that right? Yeah. Yes, that's right. I never get to, and people are fascinating to me. I do love people. I wish I could speak to more people.
Well, now that raises some questions, because one thing that I think is extraordinary about your writing is that it appears that despite being, , in danger It seems that you still find a way to be optimistic about people and the future. , it seems like for most people, when they would see what is happening to their friends and their family and the people that they've known their whole life, that they may get a really dark view of human nature.
But it seems like that isn't exactly the way you see it. Can you expand on that a little bit? Yes, I don't think of all the misery. But I think of the beauty that still remains, because in spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart. I look into the heavens, and I can gather strength from them. I think people are fascinating. We all live, but we don't get the why or the wherefore. We all live with the object of being happy.
Our lives are all different, and yet the same. I guess it is interesting to think that I haven't dropped all my ideals because they seem so absurd and impossible, but I want to keep them. I want to believe that this cruelty will end and that peace and tranquility will return. I have to keep hopeful. You'd mentioned cruelty a couple of times now, can you tell me about the cruelty that you're experiencing? What you understand is happening.
Sometimes, when we turn the radio on, we hear about the awful things that are happening to the Jews. In fact, when Mr. Pfeffer first came, I have to share a room with him. I call him Mr. Dussel in my diary, just to change his name, which means Mr. Idiot. But he told us these horrible stories about the outside world, how the Nazis go house by house, looking for Jews. If there are any, they are whisked away, and no one is saved. Pregnant women, the elderly, children.
And sometimes . I feel wicked sleeping in a warm bed when our dear friends are out in the cold. I've heard that the Jews are loaded into cattle trucks and sent to Westerbork, the big Jewish camp. It sounds horrible. Men, women, and children all sleep together. It is impossible to escape. They are branded as inmates with their shaven heads and the English radio tells us that they are being gassed to death. You've heard that on the radio?
Yes, and our dear friends Meep and her husband Yon who come and the others have told us horrible stories. I always say, all right Meep, what is the news? She tells us the news. It's scary. I am so frightened. It's the silence in the night that frightens me most. I can't tell you how oppressive it is never to be able to go outdoors. Also, I'm very afraid that we will be discovered and shot. Well, I'm certainly hoping that doesn't happen.
I wanted to ask you about, you had mentioned your friends, or I think these were employees of your father, if I'm getting it right. And correct me is the woman's name Meep? And then Jan is her husband, is that right? Yes. Yes. And they worked for your father. Are they the ones that supply you food in addition to giving you. Yes, they do. And there are four others. My father's very trusted friends and colleagues. They bring us food and clothes, and sometimes Miep brings a magazine for me.
I love movie stars. I cut them out and I put them on my wall. How I miss the cinema. I used to love to go to the cinema. The last movie I saw was Rin Tin Tin with my friends for my 13th birthday. . So, so you, you love movie stars. Do you want to be a movie star? I don't think I'm pretty enough to be a movie star. But I think I would like to interview movie stars. Or write a book about movie stars. But if I can't write novels or newspaper articles, then I want to write for myself.
I want to go on living even after my death. I'm so grateful for the gift of writing that allows me to express all that is within me. When I write, all of my Sorrow disappears and my courage is reborn. So the writing gives you strength. So that's where your courage comes from in the face of all this adversity. yes, I believe so. Yes. Now, some people think that the only thing that you have written is this diary, this red checkered diary, but I understand that you've got some stories in there.
And there I read something, I don't know if this is true, that you wrote fairytales and that There's other writing and am I anywhere near correct on any of this? Yes, I've written many stories about a variety of topics, but my favorite thing is to write about people. How they act, how they are. I love to observe them and write about them.
Well, then you have to be having a wonderful time in the annex because being locked away for two years I'm guessing that has to make people like lose their minds and there's probably a lot to watch who's the person in the that you're living with right now that you have the hardest time with and I promise I won't tell them whatever you say okay, please don't.
I won't Dussel is very hard to share a room with because desk is supposed to be shared and that is where I like to write my diary In fact, sometimes I will tell my father I do not wish to be disturbed. I am going to write He doesn't think that we need to share it and sometimes he tattles on me to my mother which I don't appreciate He's very hard to live with and he snores And he prays all the time. And I wish I didn't have to share a room with him. Does he have children? Not that I know of.
Maybe. asked him. Yeah. Cause obviously he's, he doesn't have any skills of dealing with younger people like yourself. I'm wondering why he is so difficult for you to get along with. Why he's just not nicer to you. , you're a 15 year old girl. , why can't he be a little kinder to you? This would be hard on him. You got to imagine how hard it would be on you. Any idea why he doesn't like you? Or doesn't get along with you? I think because I talk too much, maybe. It's hard not to talk.
You know, during the day, we're not allowed to talk. In fact, We have a very strict schedule for eating, for using the toilet, for sleeping. Everything must be on a schedule. And why is that? Why is it that you can't talk during the day? What specifically is happening? Well, , we have to be careful because the workers are downstairs and they cannot hear us or else we would be discovered. Ah. we must be very quiet. In fact, we cannot wear our shoes.
, we cannot use the toilet, run the water anything. We have to be very quiet. So , you can't make any noise during the day when the workers are there. And I'm wondering how many hours are they there in the morning? Are they there for eight hours throughout the day? Or is it just a couple hours? Oh, , no, it's all day. Their schedule starts about half past eight in the morning, and they work until half past five in the evening. They do go for lunch.
But for that whole stretch of the day, you can't use the bathroom. You can't use water. There's no talking. It is totally quiet for that stretch of the day for the last two years. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like you're going to run out of paper. I'd be writing nonstop if I were you. I do have three, three diaries so far that I have been working on. I don't write every day. But you have three that you're working on. Three that I have done so far since I have been here, . Yes.
Tell me about the food situation. It seems like Meep and Yan, , they'd be putting themselves in a position At a huge risk to appear to be buying extra food and then be transporting it to you. What kind of foods are they getting you? What does that process look like? Do you know about it? Have they told you about it? It is very dangerous what they are all doing, and at any time they could be arrested, they could be killed for helping us.
, when they can, they use extra food ration coupons to There, there was a man who was giving extra potatoes, but he has stopped for some reason. I'm afraid of the worst might have happened to him, but I don't know. But they also smuggle in bread and beans, eggs, sometimes in their clothes. They can't be seen walking around with boxes or bags. Because that might give away something or someone might be suspicious or may follow them. So, , what are the foods that you're missing?
Are there foods that you're, you just, you used to enjoy, but you, obviously you can't have them because . It would be too difficult for them to get those foods to you? Yes, I would love chocolate. Lots of chocolate. I remember getting a lot of chocolate on my 13th birthday with presents and cakes and parties. There will be no more of those. , not until the war is over, that is. Yes. I think I miss chocolate the most.
I think that if I were to ask a hundred people that same question, I think 99 of them would say chocolate first do. So it's not just you. We all love chocolate. And that doesn't go away in my time. So, . Let's talk about the war. What's going on? Why is there a war against the Jews? Why does Hitler hate the Jews?
I think that he blames them for losing the war, world War I, and when he came into power in 1933 he started making life very difficult for the German Jews like me, and he forced them to lose their businesses and they couldn't live in certain places. And. We couldn't go to school with Christian children. I don't know why there's so much hatred. I don't know what we have done wrong, but so many people hate us. And I feel like he started that.
And I don't understand because I don't have so much hatred for someone that I could ever treat someone the way he has treated my people. And I feel so guilty that I'm in here. And so many of my friends may have died in the concentration camp. I just wish this would all end. It has to be just so scary all the time. How often are the sirens going off? Not a lot. Not all the time. But there was this one time where it seemed like they lasted all day. It was so scary.
Margot and I just got down on the floor and just prayed. Prayed. Do the sirens mean that bombs are being dropped? It could mean that, yes. that the Germans have pulled up to someone's House and they're ransacking the place or yes, it could mean bombs are being dropped in the air You just never know. You don't know completely what is going on outside. It seems to me that your father is Otto, right? Yes. He seems like he is an extraordinary man.
, there's a lot of people that tried to wait this out when Hitler took control. And it seemed like he realized right away that he had to get out of Germany. And that's, that's how you ended up in Amsterdam. Yes And your dad always seems like he is one step ahead of everybody. I mean, is this your dad? Am I describing him right? up. Yes. He is so smart.
Yes, you're right when I was four I was born in Frankfurt Germany, but we moved here to Amsterdam when I was four my Father him as I like to call him Are you saying Pim? PIM. yes, Oh, PIM. Okay. Alright, keep going. Thank you. . He saw how dangerous Hitler was, and he knew he had to get us out of Germany.
So, he knew how to speak Dutch, and so that's why we ended up here in Amsterdam, and for a while it was fine, but then Germany invaded Amsterdam, and then Margot got called up to a concentration camp, and my father knew that he had to have a plan immediately, but . I believe the plan was already put into motion. So let's talk about that. So what happens is you move to Amsterdam, he's trying to get away from Hitler. Of course Hitler's following you wherever you go.
So he invades Amsterdam and then. Your sister is Margo Margo. She's three years older than I am. Three years. Okay. So your sister, Margo, she then gets a letter and , I'm guessing that in the letter, it didn't say she was being invited to a concentration camp did they call them? I think they called them work camps, but your dad knew what that was. And so. Okay. And so , that's when he decided , we've got to hide now.
Did he already had plans at that point for you guys to go into that secret annex area? Did he, did you do it right then that day or what happened? Well, we weren't going to move in.
I think for another few weeks, but everything got called up faster because Margot got called up to the camp, he was already starting to bring over furniture and dishes and clothes and he didn't tell Margot and I exactly what was going on because I later found out that he didn't think it was fair for us to keep such a secret from our friends. So, we didn't completely know what was going on. He told me to wear as many clothes as possible, so I layered as many clothes as I could.
And we were only allowed to take one bag, because it would look too suspicious. And I wasn't able to take my cat, Mocher, which made me sad. So, Pim gave the butcher next door some meat and asked him to take care of him for us. He was the only living creature that I said goodbye to before I left. So your dad said, put all these clothes on, we're leaving. And. , you had to leave your cat behind and you literally cannot tell anybody that you're leaving. And why is that the case?
It would be too dangerous because maybe someone would, not on purpose, but where we were. And the Nazis were looking for all the Jews and so we couldn't tell anyone anything. Well, I'm going to guess your father probably knew lots of people. He sounds like an amazing person. And if your father knows a lot of people and he has this successful pectin business for him to just disappear, the Nazis, I'm guessing they're going to go looking for him. did he cover his tracks?
He left a note, a letter saying that he had left the country because Some Jews were leaving the country, and I know my father tried twice to apply to go to America. We were not able to get in. We even tried to go to Cuba. But then, on the 14th of May in 1940, the Germans dropped bombs, which destroyed papers. So, all the paperwork was destroyed. And, it took years to get a visa, and they didn't let a lot of people in the States.
But, my father left a letter, a note, saying that we had fled the country, and we do know that it worked, because when Mr. Von Pell came, we asked him all about our house, and Mr. Goodsmith, the man renting a room from us, and he said that no one knows where we are, and that people believed it, that they did think we left the country. gosh, your dad, this guy is on top of it. So ? Do you know what he did with his business or what he did with the house that you were living in?
Did he sell them or give them to somebody or, I don't know, okay. So, So you do the paperwork to go to America and the paperwork apparently is destroyed because is that what you're saying? That, that, that building was bombed that the paperwork would have been in. So your father's trying to get to America and why America at that point? We thought it was really the only way to be truly safe. It didn't seem like they were letting a lot of people in.
And my father was even very good friends with a man. I forget his name now. But he knew the Roosevelts. But he still somehow couldn't help us, I guess. Because we're here now. Will somebody please give that girl a chocolate bar and Frank didn't want to be involved in this war. She was a kid. And although her writing helped us to understand what it felt like to be running and hiding from Hitler and the Nazis. She was just a kid who wanted to ride her bike and go to the movies.
In the next episode, she's going to share some of her experiences in the secret annex. She's going to talk about the complex relationship with her family, especially her mother and share her honest thoughts about Hitler. I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast. And if you haven't yet subscribed now, and we'll see you at the next episode of the calling history podcast with part two of Anne Frank.