Um, Tony Dean. And today we'll be calling yesterday to speak with Abraham Lincoln. He'll be answering our call on April 13th, 1865, two days before his assassination at Ford's theater. Just days prior to this conversation, Robert E. Lee surrendered, the south. After four years of brother killing brother and hundreds of thousands of deaths. Abraham Lincoln's instructions were very clear. Forgive them. Or as he said it. Uh, charity towards all and malice towards none.
When was the last time you saw a politician? I destroy his opponent and then treat them with that level of grace. It's no wonder that Lincoln is often voted. America's best president. But long before he became president, he was a young athlete and a wrestling champion that grew up poor in a log cabin. He later became a shopkeeper and then a brilliant lawyer.
And then when the nation needed him most as president, he turned those life experiences into stories that inspired and motivated those around him to work towards his vision of a United America at all costs. Ladies and gentlemen, fellow history, lovers, and masters of the broadsword everywhere I give you Abraham Lincoln. Hello, is that you, President Lincoln? Yes, it is, sir. Thank you for receiving me today. My name is Tony Dean, and I'm talking to you from the future in the 21st century.
The device that you're holding is called a smartphone, and it allows you and I to speak as if we were standing in the same room as one another. It also allows me to share a record of our conversation with People around the world and President Lincoln, I was hoping I could ask you some questions today. But before I do, I understand this is a strange introduction. Can I answer any questions that you may have first? What in the world is a smart phone? Is it anything like a telegraph?
Well, you know, I guess there are some similarities as a telegraph. But if you think of the telegraph where you are very slowly transmitting these messages one letter at a time, which is what I think that does, with a smartphone you can just talk like we are right now and you can, Transmit documents and you can send things very quickly. Obviously, we're way into the future and so the technology had advanced quite a bit.
I would probably guess that this would have been something that you would have liked very much to have during some of your trials during the Civil War, which I think is just coming to an end right now. Well, that sounds very interesting, and I was always looking for ways to bring the war to an end. So if this would have helped, it would have been nice to have. Yeah, anything that would bring the war to an end, , at what stage are you in the war right now?
You're right at the tail end, aren't you? Yes today is April the 13th. It is just before a meeting tomorrow that I will have with the cabinet. General Grant is coming to share his story as to how he received the surrender of Lee and how he handled it. But today I had a chance to talk to my son, Robert.
Because he was on the staff of Grant and he came and gave me his version because he was able to sit in the room at Appomattox Courthouse and hear the proceedings that took place, which was absolutely incredible that I'd hear that from Robbie. . So what did Robert say about that? Well, he was surprised as to how forgiving.
Grant was of Lee, and that when he took his sword, instead of breaking it as you would normally do if you were defeated, , but then he gave unconditional surrender, which was his tradition, and when he was through, he gave the sword back, treated him with respect, asked him what he needed, What is men needed? And he said, they need food because they haven't eaten for two weeks. And he says, tell them to draw the rations. And that was incredible. They did that.
, and he also told them that if they had made the pledge that they would not take up arms against the Union, then they could go home. If they had their own guns, they could take them with them, take their horses if they had them. And they would be able to go back and plant their crops because it's growing season. And because of that my son was amazed with what he had seen.
Then when they went out on the porch Lawrence Chamberlain from Gettysburg had his men come to attention and salute Lee as he left in respect of the great man in general that he was. And I was just amazed of what really happened. , I actually didn't know that it was normal procedure for when someone surrendered that the winning general would break their sword. And, did you instruct Grant to treat these people like Americans rather than as enemy combatants? Well, it's interesting.
A while back, Grant asked me when I went to City Point to visit with him, and he says, Mr. Lincoln, . What do you want me to do? With Jefferson Davis. And I said, that reminds me of a story. I at one time had a case with a two elderly couples that just bickered their entire life and. The wife, one day, was upset with her husband, grabbed a log from the side of the fireplace, hitting the side of the head, and killed him. And I was asked to defend her.
And it looked as though they were going to put an 86 year old lady in prison. Which made no sense to me. So I asked for a recess and I went to a building nearby and shortly after when I came out, I came by myself and person asked me, well, why did you do that? , well, because she asked me where I could get a cold drink of water. And I pointed to the open window and I said, I believe Tennessee.
And Grant looked over at me and he nodded his head and I nodded my head back and I believe he understood I was saying, what purpose would it serve to punish Jefferson Davis? And he interpret that also with Robert E. Lee. , interesting. , in our time. You are known for telling these kinds of stories and them having great meaning to others.
, where does this come from, this ability to relate to people and tell stories that, , either give people instructions or calm them down when, things are getting a little too heated. Where does this come from? Well, when I was younger, we did not have , any books in the house, other than the Bible. And that was from a very poor family.
And as I learned to read and write, and the books that I finally were able to, I have in my presence with my stepmother, which was Aesop's Fables, and when I read it, it was animals were talking, and they told stories that had morals to them, and I learned from that. And other stories that I heard Robinson, Crusoe, I believe it was, where they had lived on an island, and were surviving, and they found a person that lived there, and was walking along on the beach, and his, we named him Friday.
And the unique thing about it was, by him being on Friday, that if he did all the work, then everything was done by Friday, he went to have her weekends free. This is where all of your stories came from. They just came from books? From books. And what I would do is take those as well as biblical things that I read and would relate them to particular situations.
Now sometimes they were to get a point across one particular case I had early on riding the circuit is that I had a man that was walking wrong and mind his own business and the other person just kept pestering and pestering. He finally got upset with him. So he just clobbered him, beat the tar out of him.
And the person that had been , pastoring him took him to court, and I was asked to defend him, and when we gave all the stories and all the things with it, I was asked , what I would say about it, and I said it reminds me of a story of a man that's walking down the road with a pitchfork on his shoulder. Mining his own business, and this ferocious dog comes out at him, and he puts a pitchfork down in front of him, and the dog comes at him, he jumps into it, and kills the dog.
The owner comes out, and he says, my dog, why did you kill my dog? And he says, well, why did your dog attack me? And he says, well, why didn't you go after him with the other end of the pitchfork? I turn around and put my rear end and wave it at the jury and I said, well, why didn't he come after me with his other end the jury laughed and we won the case because they understood exactly what I was saying by the illustration that if you pick on someone.
And you get yourself in trouble, you're gonna run into someone where you won't win. Wow. And I would tell cases like that to get a point across. When I was in Washington, I had people constantly coming in and just absolutely. Terribly upset and I would tell them a story and I'd say, this reminds me of a story and I'd start telling them to them and the story had nothing to do with what they were in there and what they were upset about.
And the more I told of the story, they would listen and try and say, well, how does this relate to what's happening? And then when I would get to the punch line and they would laugh and then I would say, now, what was it you came in for? And what did I do? I disarmed them. And therefore. We could talk reasonably about what was happening rather than me listening to the tyrants of what they were upset about.
It just calm them down, just break their pattern, give them a moment to take a couple deep breaths and then be rational again, it sounds like. That's exactly what would happen. It worked for me quite often. Now, I would do it occasionally with the cabinet. I would say, well, this reminds me of a story. And they'd say, oh no, don't tell me another story. And one time they said Stanton, I believe it was, said, I believe you would tell a story if you were within a mile of hell.
And I said, well, that's just about the distance it is from here to the Congress. That's Oh, geez, that is fantastic. That really is. You know, and it seems like when you were working as a lawyer, but I certainly in politics too, what am I saying? But , this is a perfect fit for this. Because as a lawyer, , you're certainly always trying to change somebody's mind or persuade somebody, which I guess would be no different than politics. But do you have a, I'm curious, do you have a preference?
Yes. Between politics and law, do you like one better than the other? Well, law is where you try and help someone out. And when someone has wronged them or they believe that they have been wronged now I've always told my clients and would work my best to resolve the situation instead of going to court. Because you never know what will happen when you're in court. And if you can avoid doing that, I would always do that.
But the real problem is with politics is that you never know what the other person Is going to do and it's being able to persuade them and work with them. But I always liked politics. Henry Clay was my idol. I thought he would be a president someday. And I kind of patterned my life after him, but I was interested in treating people fairly and that they were treated fairly and taken care of. , but I enjoyed.
Being an attorney, because I rode the circuit in the spring and the fall for three months and would leave home and leave poor Mary to watch after the boys, because we did have four boys, and she would take care of them while I was gone. And then I would what I call practice law and I really enjoyed that time with the other attorneys and the judge, and just that time together and growing relationships that I would cherish for the rest of my life.
I'm wondering if this feeling of this need to be fair with people sometimes affected you negatively in the courtroom. Because in our time, when people end up in a courtroom, It doesn't appear, and I don't know if this is true, but it doesn't appear that people are looking for fairness. They're looking to win. When you go to court, aren't you looking to win?
Well, actually, if I had a case and I knew I was wrong, my client was guilty matter of fact, one time I did, I asked for a recess and I left and I never went back. I just could not defend someone that was guilty. But I would try and find a way to prove that someone was, and sometimes I was successful at doing it. An example of that was when Jack Armstrong had a son named Duff, and after he had passed away, Duff Armstrong was accused of murder.
And at 11 o'clock at night, by the light of the moon, They said that he, with a slingshot, killed a man. And I knew his mother, which was a widow at that time, and I went and defended Duff for her at no cost because of the kindness that they had shown to me. And during the case, I had the person that saw what happened in the middle of the night repeat it several times. So there was absolutely no question what they were saying. And then I pulled out the almanac.
And the almanac said, at 11 o'clock at night, there was not a full moon. And the whole case went the other way. And it's just a matter of looking and searching and trying to find a way of proving that the person that you believe was being unfairly convicted or tried, that you find a way of making it right. And that's what I work very hard to be able to do. So what about making things right with somebody like Jefferson Davis?
Because I understand with Grant and , the direction that you had given him about showing Robert E. Lee respect because Robert E. Lee was being a soldier. He was doing what he was told to do. But , Jefferson Davis, I feel like his situation is a little bit different because he's the one telling people. And he's a little bit more responsible. As far as the decisions in the South, the buck kind of stops with him, I think. Does somebody like that deserve forgiveness?
I'm wondering what your feelings are on him. Well, it was as I said in the other story, and that a person's 85 years old and they're going to go to the prison, what purpose does it serve? If we put Jefferson Davis in prison and shoot him or whatever, what purpose would that serve for him and for the country? And my feeling was that as I said in the second inaugural address, malice toward none and charity toward all.
What I'm looking for is that when the war is over, I want Mrs. Helms, which is Mary's my wife's sister to be able to come to the White House and visit with us and not feel bad about it. And that we can together move forward, move where we're going to go. We have family members on each side of the war. They're good people. And when the war is over, we need to bring the country back together. Because we're not trying to destroy another country.
We're trying to rebuild or bring back our country together so that our two brothers that fought on each side can embrace each other and say, what can I do to help you? How do you heal that divide when you've got brothers killing brothers and neighbors killing neighbors?
You think back, and you go way back in history, that even stories of like, Romeo and Juliet, and you talk about these families where, , somebody accidentally kills somebody else's pig, and next thing you know, , over the next hundred years, , they're killing each other. , these kinds of stories have gone on throughout history these feuds that have lasted for generations. How do you heal, , this divide with so many hundreds of thousands of people, , killing each other?
Well, it says that you should forgive your brother. And if we follow that and believe what is in the Bible and what, how it tells us to live with our neighbor. If you look at the story of the prostitute and they wanted the stoner because that's what the law was and what did Jesus do? He leaned down, he wrote in the sand and he says, the first one of you is that is without sin.
So the first stone and they gradually as he traced something on the ground, they all left because we all are guilty of doing something that we should not be doing. And how can we or do to other people when we're not perfect either? That's pretty tough to argue with. You've mentioned the Bible several times. As we've been talking and what is your relationship with the Bible and with religion and God?
Well when I was born in a log cabin that was 16 by 18 With a dirt floor and we only had one book because that's all we could afford it would be the Bible. So When, on the Sunday, we always would take the Bible out, and my mother would read to me, even though she was illiterate, and you say, well, how did she do that? Well, she at least knew the word David, and Noah, and other biblical
characters, and then she would tell the story, . But when my sister and I had enough education we could read, we read, basically, to my mother. To my mother because we were able to do that and I had great curiosity in wanting and desire to read anything I could. . I read it through many times. I memorized many parts of it, and therefore this. The stories in the Bible tell us how to treat our neighbor and how we want to be treated and how we should treat others. in the same fashion.
And because of that it was ingrained in my mind as to what God wanted us to do. Now, there were times in my life that I questioned the Bible, as I think most people do. But when Particularly when I went to the war, as I left Springfield on February the 11th, I said the challenge before me is greater than that of Washington, and I know not when or if I will ever return to Springfield. So I knew that the task before me was a big one and whether or not I would survive it, I wasn't sure.
And I indicated that in my speech, so you never know where you're going to be. And also, the Bible is what will help you get through it. I asked my fellow citizens in Springfield to pray for me. Because without that prayer, and the divine help of God, I don't know how I will get through the next period of time, not knowing that it would take four years rather than just a few months or hopefully not fighting at all. And because of that, there were times the world was not going well.
So I called for prayer and fasting nine times. I asked people to go to their place choice of worship and sit down and quietly ask your God. What do you want us to do? I felt maybe the South was outpraying us. Maybe that was the reason the war didn't go well. And then toward the end of the war, I signed a document that would allow the phrase of four words be put on our coins. And in 1864, on a two cent piece, there was put the phrase, In God We Trust.
I went to my knees many times during the war., I was so distraught. And the only comfort that I could find is when I would take and read the Bible for a little bit, and then pray, and then let God handle whether we'd win at Gettysburg or not, or whether we'd win at Chancellorsville or not, and then be able to go from there and live with it. , are you telling me That, prior to that moment, , because at this time in history, all the coins say in God we trust on them. All of them do.
Are you telling me that prior to that moment in 1964, where you're looking for any way to add more prayer, so that we can pray more, , that the coins did not say in God we trust on them? They did not. That was the first coin, our coin, that has a God We Trust on it, was 1864, two cent piece. , that was the first time that it occurred. You had mentioned Washington a few minutes ago, President Washington. Yeah. And, is he a hero of yours? Oh. Yes, he was.
we would not be a country without Washington and the challenge that he had in saving us from Great Britain and fighting an impossible battle. In war of dividing ourselves from a way of life that we did not want, and being successful at it. Of course I really wish he had when he wrote the Constitution, they had solved the problem of slavery, but unfortunately he didn't left that for me. He apparently thought you were more capable. I guess he thought someone in the future would be.
If you could go back in time, and you could ask him a couple questions or you could make some comments. Is there anything else that comes to mind that you'd want to ask him? Well, what I've read is Battle of Trenton and in the gamble that he took in the dead of night of attacking on Christmas Day. , in just the different things that he did that were unconventional, but yet without that courage and, I guess determination we wouldn't be a country.
the talk with him for a few minutes would be something that would be remarkable. Well, now, you know how I feel . So let me ask you about you had said that you went to war. Now, when I was preparing to speak with you, you actually did go to war. I think except for Washington, and I may be wrong on this, but I think you were one of the few presidents to actually go onto a battlefield.
In fact, I read something about where you, there were bullets flying everywhere and you were standing up on top of a hill and somebody grabbed you and pulled you down and said, , you crazy person. Get down here, you're gonna get killed, or something like that. Can you tell me about this story? I don't know the details. You're probably referring to Fort Stevens. Fort Stevens is a mile from the summer cottage where we stayed, but probably over four miles from downtown Washington.
And Marion and I and some others were visiting Fort Stevens. And when we were there, The battlefield was laying in front of us, and we were just looking, and then some firing took place. People started firing at people, and we sent Mary and the ladies about a mile away in the carriage to get away from it. I'm standing on the battlefield looking out over it.
And they start firing, and some bullets are coming our way, and a gentleman by the name of Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. stands up and says, Get down, you dang fool! Or words to that effect. And a bullet, from a sharpshooter, shot a private that was within a couple arms length of me, indicating that I was under fire. And at that point, I decided to listen to Mr. Holmes, and I found a little safer place to be than standing up with my hat sticking up as a target.
Now, a little later, when I went back to the carriage to find Mrs. Lincoln, my hat blew off. And the problem was, when the soldiers Picked it up for me and showed it to me. There was a bullet hole through it, which means it wasn't totally the way it should be. Now, I asked him to take the hat and not show it to Mary in particular and acquire a new one for me so that Mary would not be aware of how close things really were. Is this a pattern of yours?
Taking incredible risks with your life like this? guess I don't understand this. Is there not somebody on your cabinet or somebody in your security detail that says, Why are you here? This is not where you belong. You're the decision maker, not the guy holding the gun. Well, Wade Lamont was a fellow attorney when I was on the circuit and he came to me when I realized I was going to Washington as a bodyguard, basically.
And he was kind of in charge of security for me and he many times would just throw his hands up and he says, Lincoln, if you aren't going to help me any by going to the telegraph office in the middle of the night with no one with you. How in the world can I keep you alive? And if you keep doing that, I'm just going to give up on you and leave. And so he got pretty upset at times with me. But there were times that I just needed to either be by myself or I didn't want to bother.
The soldiers at 11 or 12 o'clock at night when I needed to go to the telegraph office and find out what had happened in the battle during the day. And sometimes I would take my son, Tad, with me and we would go over. But it just, I didn't want any inconvenience. Now, one time, I was always looking for ways to bring the war to an end. And looking for something that would be more efficient to what we had. And I went out behind the White House one time, test firing a Remington.
And when I was back there and fired a couple times, my bodyguards that were around the front of the White House came running as fast as they could with their guns, all ready to find me in a precarious situation. And they realized all they were doing was test firing guns. And they got a little upset with me and I had to apologize and make sure in the future that when I was test firing out back, which I did a few times, that I let them know beforehand so they wouldn't get so upset or disturbed.
I wonder if, cause I don't think that standing on the front lines it almost looks irresponsible like Like you have a death wish. , but I know that isn't true. I think that you were probably trying to inspire people and show courage. But I wonder if maybe there was even , a belief that you had some divine protection or maybe even luck on your side. Because I think during your life, weren't there several times where you almost died? Yes, there were.
And when I was a youngster, I had a friend named Austin, and after a big rain, we went down to the river that we had been a day or two before, and there was a log across the stream, but we had always been warned that , after a big storm, that you should stay away from the water, because it's very dangerous. And I told Austin that I think I can get across that log the same as I had the day before.
The previous day and when I tried it, I was wrong and I fell in and Austin grabbed a stick and poke me with it and by poking me with it, I grabbed for it and fortunately grabbed a hold of it and he pulled me in and saved my life.
And, had he not been there, and I like to share that we should learn that whenever we do anything, we should have someone with us, particularly if there's any possibility, particularly around water, possibility of danger, and so he did save me and otherwise we wouldn't have been telling you this story today. Another time was, I was older, and we , would take our grain to the local granary. Now when the water is down, you would take your mule.
So I took my mule with me carrying the grain that we had. And I waited quite a while. And I was getting frustrated,. You wait in line long enough you just want to get it over with. And so it was finally our turn. And I hooked our mule up. I put the grain in and was working as I should, and I had a little switch that I would encourage him to go a little faster, because I wanted to get done before dark. And I would go, giddy up, and then a mule hit me in the head and I was saying giddy up.
And that was the end of it and knocked me out cold and I lay there and the story they tell me is that the owner of the mill came out and wondering what in the world happened and he thought I was , a real goner. And then. A few minutes later, I woke up and I said, giddy up and finish what I was trying to get the mule to do. And I realized, oh, I'm not behind the mule anymore. So, yes, I believe I'm on this earth. For a reason.
I don't know for sure what it is, but I feel that I'm here to do something that will make me stand out among my fellow men. And whether that's divine or not, I'm not sure. I just feel I'm here for a reason. Well, I'd have to ask you about one more situation like this. I don't know if you brought this on yourself, or if, you outsmarted somebody. But is there truth to a story that you were nearly in a duel and you chose to duel with swords rather than pistols? Yes, funny you should ask that.
Well, President Lincoln, I'm spotting a trend here, so go ahead. Well, early as a lawyer. We were trying a case with a widow that had lost her property and a man came along and said that someone else had bought it from her husband before he died and I was defending her . And the person I was against the other attorney was , a man by the name of Shields.
And I would say something and the paper would print it, and he would say something and the paper would print it, and we went back and forth basically trying it in the paper. And one time there was an article written with a title Rebecca. And. He was a woman's man and he thought he was a very good person and the ladies loved him. So Rebecca said all of these things about him and Embarrassed him. And because of that, he was so offended. He went to the editor and asked if I had read it.
And he said, well, I can't tell you that. , but he didn't deny it. And I did not allow him to tell who did it. The author of that was Mary Todd, would be my wife in the future. And because of that, he challenged me to a duel. Now, when you're challenged to a duel.
You get to choose your weapons and because I could handle an axe better than anybody else Some people say that if we had a contest of cutting down trees the best guy cuts down his first tree I'm on my second and a half tree because I'm very capable of it so I took the broadsword the biggest one I could find and We went to off the shore of Missouri where duels were legal, and I proceeded to trim a few tree limbs, and the second Mr.
Shields looked over and said, I believe you are going to be in deep trouble, and because of that, we were able to come to a decision on it of where we I kind of apologized and we moved on rather than actually going after each other, but he was considered very good at dueling and had been in a duel more than once, and I did not feel that pistols was a way for me to go. I'm a little confused on what was the purpose of trimming the tree branches with the sword?
Well, it meant that I had a long arm reach and that he was definitely shorter than me. And that by doing that, that there was some cutting involved. And if we had been actually going at it his second realize what I was saying is that Something's going to get trimmed and it's not going to be me. I see. So when you're reaching up in the tree, you're demonstrating that you've got these long arms because you're tall and probably have a long wingspan.
And he's a little guy and so he may not even get in because you're fighting with swords. Is that what you're saying? That's what I'm saying. Oh, my gosh, that's brilliant . She now a follow up of that. When I was in Washington, I was at a reception line one time and the person came up that had been aware of what had happened. And they said, how about the time you were? Involved in a duel and I stopped what I was doing.
I got very serious and I said, sir, if we are ever to be friends any longer, we will never discuss this again. And the reason I said that I believe the duel was a young man that was thinking it was kind of impressive to do something like that. But as a president, I realized that it was not something. That a person in my position would do such a deed. You know, , that situation, , had you not been thinking ahead of outsmarting him with the broadswords and that had gone to pistols.
I mean, this could have been an Aaron Burr, Alexander Hamilton situation all over again. Yes, it could. And I was determined that it wasn't going to be that way. So I kind of, I guess I put the odds in my favor. Yeah. No, I like that. I, okay. So now we're talking about, I know I'm asking you all these oddball questions, but it's just fascinating me to hear about your life and what it looked like before all the things that, , that we know about, like, your presidency in the civil war.
And, As I think about you jumping onto this log, thinking, Okay, the river's going down, I can jump on this log. And then I think about you as a young man deciding, Yeah, absolutely, I'm gonna get involved in a duel. It sounds to me like you're describing an athletic person. And , the pictures that we all have of you are not of you in your youth. We don't see this young strapping swimmer or runner on the track team in your school. We see the president. Were you very athletic in your youth?
Yeah, , I was very healthy when I would cut trees or husk corn or whatever, I could do it much better than anyone else because I was, by 17, I was 6'4 I was a very big, strong person. As I was growing up in school When you would take a recess, you would have foot races, you would do other spelling bees and that sort of thing. And I excelled educationally, so I'd win all the spelling bees, therefore I couldn't participate at a point because I was the only one winning.
And we would have foot races and I would win them once I got to be as tall or taller than everybody else. And I was very athletic. Wrestling was something that you would do a lot of. And I always would win. Now, early on, My sister and I, because all our houses were about a mile apart, it was hard to find a neighbor closer than that. And my sister and I would play together doing things, including wrestling.
And one time well, as we wrestled for quite a bit and different things, my sister would always beat me. Until I grew up. And I got to be as big as she was and I was bigger and stronger and I was able to beat her and one of the first times that I beat her. I was holding her down, just basking in the fact that I had won, and she starts screaming. My parents come out, they wonder, what in the world are you doing to your sister? And, I realized at that point that you need to let her up easy.
What I mean to say is that if my sister and I are going to end up playing together and competing in physical activities as wrestling, when I am able to defeat her, once I have won, I need to get up Grab her arm, lift her up and say, that was fun. And you were great and let her up easy, which is something that I use later on when we were fighting, it was when the, during the war and that once we're over.
And when the fighting is over, we need to let them up easy, which is kind of the basis for my second inaugural address, Malice Toward None and Charity Toward All. It's amazing how those lessons of our youth, things as simple as, , wrestling with a sibling, Is something that ends up being so important , as an element of our character that allows us to be a better person later in life. , without that lesson, jeez, I mean, who knows?
Something that simple could have been you and Grant standing in a room and you telling Grant, as soon as you get his sword, you break that thing and you let those people know that they owe us and they're going to pay for what they've done. I mean, it could have been a totally different direction without those lessons from your family. Right. Yeah. That's absolutely right. When you were 17 and you were tall and athletic and all that, did you have the beard at 17? No. No, I did not.
. The beard did not come until a month before the election. And I received a letter from a girl that was 11 years old from Westfield, New York. And she asked me, first of all, if I had any daughters, which I did not. I had four sons. And she said you're tall and thin and you look better, so you're not good looking or you're ugly, but if you grow chin whiskers, you'll look better and the ladies will tease their husbands and they will vote for you. And if you do that, you will become president.
So, I decided to grow the whiskers. I told Ted, my barber, and I said, Ted, let's let those little things grow and see if they'll do anything. And so, when you see me in a beard, you'll know it was after , October 15th.
1860 when I received a letter from Grace Bedell and when I was going to Washington to be inaugurated and I made about 40 some stops all over the country that helped let people know who I was and I stopped there and I thanked them for voting for me as I did every place else and then I asked if anyone knew a young girl by the name of Grace Bedell.
By that time, she was 12 years old, and a person in the back said yes, and he said, I asked, where is she, and he said, she's here, brought her up, I gave her a swing around, I thanked her for the good counsel, and I asked her what she thought of the beard, and she thought it looked very good. A wise man receives counsel from anywhere, as long as it is good counsel, and apparently some of yours come from 11 year old girls.
Which I would suggest to anyone, that if you know someone, and not necessarily girls, but young people, that have put a lot of thought into something, that you might want to listen to them, because maybe, it'll be a life changing decision. . Why is it, speaking of the war, why is it that the war took so long, , four years of vicious fighting and so many deaths? How is it that, , nobody gives in, or there's no way to find common ground sooner?
Did it, didn't it seem like it went on just so much longer than it, than anybody would have guessed? Absolutely. One, I was hopeful that there wouldn't be a war. And the problem was early on when the states started leaving the Union, Buchanan, which was the at that time, was a Democrat from the South, and he knew that if he intervened To stop those that were closing down the different military facilities that he would be into something he really didn't want to get into. So he just let it happen.
Well, what happened was most of the military facilities in the country. Would have gentlemen from the South and you say, well, why is that? Well, it's because if a slave owner's father passed away, who gets the property? Who becomes the next person in charge? Well, that's the oldest son. So, if your son number two, three, four or five. What are you going to do? Distinguish yourself and be someone important as your older brother is.
So you either become a lawyer go into politics, or you become a military person and because of that, many of the well educated from a plantation, Would seek training at West Point and not only training, but they would be some of the best because of the better education that they had with a family that was capable of providing it.
And because of that, you get your best qualified people in the military facilities and probably well over half of them were from the South because they were much better educated and they seem to do much better at West Point. When they were being trained.
And because of that, when the war broke out, and you seceded from the Union, the person that is in charge of the different military facilities, one third of them, And when they resigned, they took with them everything that was in that military facility that would assist them in the war if it were to take place. They would take guns with them and the like. One example of that is North Oak, Virginia.
The person in charge there took boats, took ammunition, took whatever they could with them when they went to the South to withdraw from the Union. That's it. And when they left, they didn't want to leave anything, so they tried to blow up what was left. Fortunately, the attempt of blowing something up did not ignite, and therefore they didn't lose everything at Norfolk. Now, knowing this, I have different military facilities. They've all been resigning.
I go to Colonel Magruder, which is the head of the Washington City, Military facility and he is from the South and I asked him, he says, Colonel, what are your plans? And he says, I was raised under old glory and I'll die under old glory . I take a deep breath and I say, okay, this is great. You are truly a Southern gentleman. Three days later, he resides.
So now I have in Washington, no one in charge of the military and there's going to be fighting and I'm wondering what in the world we're going to do. So I call up 75, 000 men volunteers to come and fight for the North while I'm waiting for them to come. I'm having military facilities. There's those are leaving, and when they leave, there's no one in charge.
Now, the problem in Washington itself, Washington City is many of the homes in Washington were either owned or rented, operated by Southern wealthy people. That were members of Congress when they left the union, resign from Congress and the people left to watch their houses are Southerners. So if I call up the militia, what's going to happen? I'm going to be calling up Southern sympathizers and therefore. , I can't do that.
So I'm waiting patiently for the 75, 000 to come and protect Washington City from any possible attacks from the South. And therefore, it's a very precarious situation. And because of that, I have to find a way of moving forward until we can secure the north. But it doesn't look good because the great leadership that we had in the military facilities have gone south. Robert E. Lee, I asked him if he would stay on, and he indicated he would. Until Virginia left the Union.
When Virginia left the Union, he said, I cannot take up arms against my fellow statesmen. And therefore he left. So, best military leaders we have in the country. have left. They've gone south. Robert E. Lee, for 10 years, had been superintendent of West Point. And on Sunday afternoon, he would ask these cadets, the promising ones, to come to his house, and they would talk about military strategy.
And because of these get togethers, he would say, in the Battle of Waterloo, You take on so and so's position and whatever, and with that knowledge, come back and tell what you would have done different. So he knows the men that had military positions, and now they're fighting for the South. So he knows these men intimately. He knows what your capabilities are, and we in the North are stuck with not the skilled leadership that the South has.
For that reason, the first battle of Bull Run, four o'clock in the afternoon, we're ahead, and it looks like we've won, and I go for a carriage ride.
In the middle of the carriage ride, I get the cavalry comes up and says, Mr. President, we have a problem, and what had happened A man by the name, would get the nickname Stonewall Jackson saw the man retreating, and he decided to take out his revolver, and he said, the next person that takes a step toward me is a dead man, and they took him serious, and they turned around, and the tide of The Battle of Bull Run changed, and we lost, and for the next two years, we were
trying to find a way of getting someone that was capable of winning, and on our side the first officer we had in charge was Winfield Scott, and he had been a hero from , the Battle of Mexico, But he was 75 years old, he weighed 310 pounds, and he had a bad case of the gout. , the problem was when he would go to review the troops, he would go to get a horse and the horses would cower in the back corner hoping that they wouldn't be chosen. Oh, my gosh.
So when he left, we were looking for someone to take his place, and we thought it was early on with the Battle of Rich Mountain in western Virginia. Now, the people in western Virginia did not believe the same as Virginia. The rest of Virginia, because they, there were fewer people, they were mountain people and they were, they got their support and the things they needed from Pennsylvania and Ohio.
And when they would elect legislators and want money for improvement of roads and so forth, they very seldom got what they wanted. So they relied on Pennsylvania and Ohio. And when the war broke out, they wanted to stay with the Union. And one of the early battles was at Rich Mountain. And as General McClellan would go up the mountain with a new device called a telegraph, he would put up the lines and, Send us a telegraph saying I'm going up Rich Mountain.
When I get up there, we're going to win and when they did get up on the top of a local person came by and said, Hey, if you want to defeat them, I'll show you a back way in. So you sneak in on him and he did. And. One of the generals that encouraged McClellan to do this, talked him into it. They went single file, leading their horses, cause it was too dangerous to ride them, across what I call the laurels, or goat path. And they went in, were successful in routing them.
But when the signal was given, McClellan did not. Respond to it and come in and help them out. So 12 hours after they had been routed. And they left. He sent someone in to see what had happened and realized they were all gone and we won. So he, with his telegraph, said, Rich Mountain is ours. Twelve hours too late. But because he was the highest ranking official, officer, he was given credit for and became a military hero.
And therefore we put him in as the head of the military in the East for the next better part of two years, we spent trying to get him to fight. He was great with training the troops. They would do anything for him, but I believe he loved his men so much that he didn't fight. That way he wouldn't lose them. And that was the situation we had for the first two years.
Year or two of the war because it went so poorly and we lost so many battles that I needed to find a way of being able to win and I had to take the strength away from the South. Like so many, I've always admired Lincoln, the amount of effort that it took to hold the nation together during the civil war was nothing short of Herculean. But then when you find out that during the first two years, all the talent, he needed to fight the war was on the other side.
It, makes it all that much more impressive. In the next episode, we're going to talk about what emancipation looked like, the challenges of finding a general that would fight and why he recruited people to his cabinet, that didn't like him. I'm glad you're enjoying this podcast. And if you haven't yet subscribed now, and we'll see you at the next episode of the calling history podcast with part two of Abraham Lincoln.