Uf Podcast. Okay, so welcome to the UFO Thinker Podcast, part of the Cohen Albans Cab Network. My name is Frank and let's get cracking with today's episode. So today we've got with us a very special guest. Dave Holdrin is the chairman and lead investigator for Birmingham UFO group known as BOO FOG and the United Kingdom Deputy Representative for the International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research ISA.
He regularly writes for UFO Truce magazine and has previously written for a number of other magazines, and he has spoken at many well known conferences and given educational classes on UFO investigation on television and radio numerous times, and even designed a UFO themed card game. Since two thousand and eight, Dave has directly investigated
hundreds of sightings and contact experiences from around the world. He believes that the evidence available as do I, of course, points towards regular interaction between numerous advanced extraterrestrial intelligences and the human race. So Dave, very glad to have you with us. How are you doing today? So thanks Rank here doing
great and love you to speak on the show. Yeah, great to have you here, and obviously from what I've mentioned there in the intro, you yourself have been pretty heavily involved now in a topic for quite some time. I always like to I always like to ask a little bit of a background, if you don't mind of what youse, I suppose what got you into the UFO topic in the first place and kind of led you know to where
you are today. It's a fascinating world that we live in, and I think many people in their childhoods can have kind of general interest in UFOs and the wider areas of the paranormal. And that's how it started for me, just reading books on the subject, not just UFOs, in other things,
ghosts, bigfoot, whatever, just really fascinated by all. But the more I started to look into the UFO angle specifically, the more evidence I was seeing for the reality of it. I just thought, there's just so many cases on record, really really good cases with compelling evidence and testimony, and it can't all be fabricated hoaxes. You know, there's going to be some hoaxes and that sort of thing and misidentifications out there, of course, but
there's just so many. There's like thousands of cases on record, and it just seems it seems overwhelming the evidence to support the reality of this actually going on on a global basis. I started to realize that in my kind of early teenage years, and it wasn't until the creation of Birmingham UFO Group in late two thousand and seven was my driving force to start actively investigating the subject.
Before then, I just had a big interest. I used to go to conferences regularly with Your Phone magazine that as many other others to do out there, but it was always kind of a calling for me, I think, and with Birmingham ufoone group that gave me the chance I needed to become an active investigator. I kind of liked the idea of investigating for an organization rather than just kind of being like Dave Hadrian investigator in UFOs, which obviously
I could have done many many years before that. But Birmingham UFOE Group they
soon after starting. It wasn't actually started by me. I wasn't the original chairman of the group of two other people with the initial chairmen, and they were after somebody who would be able to become the official investigator for the group essentially and start speaking with witnesses writing up case Reports, and that's how it began for me and a couple of years later on after that, I then took over chairman duties of the group as well since summer two thousand and nine
and I've been running it ever since. Yeah, amazing, Thanks, And I actually first saw your talk at the UFO identified Mini Con a few years back now actually, and I think I've caught a few of your other talks that you've done, and I think we've we've spoken to each other at a few of these events. Greater, Finally, great to finally have you on the on the show, and anyone in the Northwest area or beyond if you fancy a bit of a road trip, definitely worth going seeing one of Davis's
presentations an event if you can. And of course it's not just a Northwest you do talk all around the place, so people should definitely keep an eye out for where you're going to be next day. Absolutely so. Now, one thing that we spoke about when I caught up with you in person was an area of particular interest for me, as as listeners of the podcast will
only too well know, which is Black Angle UFO sightings. So I believe you have some interesting cases that we'll talk about, and I'm looking forward to hearing about those. But before we actually get to that, a black triangle is kind of an area that you're particularly interested in, and some general thoughts perhaps on black triangles absolutely well, I mean, obviously, investigating lots and lots of cases, you get the patterns emerge and the different types, shall
we say, of objects being seen by people. Obviously you've got your kind of classic sort of sources discs. Discs are still seen today, Cylinder typecraft are otherwise known cigars sometimes Obviously, it all depends on where the viewing angle is, because obviously a disc sidear can be described as a cigar or cylinder
underneath you looking up at it. It's around, isn't it. One of the one of the types that's quite regularly reported is of course, triangular shaped UFOs, which generally seem to be kind of very very dark in color, rather jet black blacker than black, or sort of navy blue type colors or dark gray not there's very very few cases have dealt with where there haven't been one of those sort of colorations. Lighting configurations on them very cose to case.
But again, you get certain patterns and certain repeated types of lighting on these things, and it's a yeah, one of the obviously, it's it's clear that it's a real thing that's going on out there. So sometimes, obviously people can misidentify three independent objects glowing and they can kind of fill in the gaps between that, especially if it's after dark, and then think they're seeing a singular object and they describe as a triangle. It's actually like let's
say, let's take for example, three Chinese lanterns or whatever. Let's say they're drifting. Well, obviously whatever configuration they're going to be in, they're going to make a triangle in the sky, and sometimes that can be misinterpreted as a single object. But I've dealt with lots of cases over the years where people have genuinely seen a solid, structured craft of some kind that's blocked
out the stars, so they know it's there. You know, they're seeing it before the sun set, so they can see it's a solid object with lighting on it. And some of the cases I've got to share with you today are going to be going to focus on that. So, yeah, I do get them regularly reported, even up to now. One of the cases I'm going to go through with you is literally a brand new case that
I'm working on at the moment. It's only a couple of the incident happened in January this year, So it just goes to show that flying trendles are still being seen regularly, and they're being seen around the world. But then
they're far from a new phenomena. There's UFO sightings of these things going right back to the forties, fifties, etc. Yeah, that's it, and it's I actually find it quite interesting as well as black triangles that it's actually a relatively easy shape to misidentify because of what you say, anything three points of light in the sky like say Chinese lanterns or you know, even up certain planes, you know, with some lighting configurations and things like that,
you can actually can can appear to be a black triangle, you know, triangle of some type. But of course there are the cases that have a lot more going on. The points are something and happening there, and I'm sure some of the bits and pieces that that you're going to go into are going to be along those types of lines. But presumably when you do get cited reports of black triangles, you do get some misidentifications as well. So yeah, yeah, quite a few. And I'll happily tell people if I
believe that they've seen some mundane I feel a lot. I'm quite granded with
the subject. While absolutely believing it to be real. As you said in the introduction, spill, you know, I certainly believe this is is real and does involve other intelligences, but there is also a hell of a lot of misidentification that goes on out there, of course, And as you say, some of the aircraft that are seen, some of the military aircraft, especially stealth bomber type, not that they're flying stuff bombers everywhere or anything like
that. One of the I mean, one of the arguments about black triangles is of course that it's some sort of top secret military project. A lot of people like to lean on that angle, especially with black triangles, and I don't know why that is, Yeah, because why not lean on it with discs or cigars or cubes or whatever, you know, some of the other types that are seen, or glowing orbs whatever. But especially with the black triangles, people are like, oh, this isn't alien, there's not
another intelligence in there. They're human flown things. Yeah, But there's various bits of logic that kind of don't really fit with that for me. First of all, if it's some kind of top secret military project, then why on earth are the military flying them over highly populated areas. Yeah, I've dealt with lots of cases right over Birmingham Center and that sort of thing.
Of these things, some of which we're going to go through from the Birmingam Areus and the Weld Cup to Shery you today, and others are much further afield. Yeah, it's going on everywhere, right, So if it is some top secret military project, yeah, well who's in charge of this project? If these things have been seen globally, then well everybody's in charge. And then if that's the case, then why on earth are we not getting any whistleblowers of that? You know? This project so called? Yeah,
on a global basis would be absolutely astronomical. There would be thousands and thousands of people involved in that, and you'd expect at least a few whistleblowers coming forward saying that that was what was going on, Yeah, and that there were human made Now I'm not saying that all of them have got other intelligences aboard. Yeah, I'm not saying that some of them couldn't be kind of back engineered things made by humans, or we've used advanced technology to make these
things and they're now flying them around. Some of the ones seen in kind of more out of the way areas. Perhaps they're kind of test flying them when they've been seen in remote places. But yeah, it makes sense for these top secret craft if there are human flown to be flown in the middle of the desert somewhere like good old Area fifty one. Yeah, like out there in the desert. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, it does
not make sense over highly populated areas. And another bit of logic I've got towards them not being human is that I've dealt with contact cases involving black triangles, So there's nothing kind of separating them. They've got the same sort of characteristic flight characteristics, capabilities as the other types that are seen yet take for example, good old flying dome disks. Yeah, they can perform the same
kind of maneuvers as those. Yeah. So this whole separation of kind of trying to make them human flowing but the other types not human flown, it doesn't really have logical sense to me. Especially when I've dealt with abduction cases that have involved actual flying triangle craft. Yeah. A really good point.
And I think, as you say, it does tend to be black triangles in particular that people try and explain away as being you know, top secret military aircraft, and I don't know, maybe it's the black you know, the stealth bombers and stuff similar to the shape. Yeah, Yeah, obviously, it's obviously it seems more capable that humans are be able to create something that was that sort of shape because we, of course we have created Delta
Jack Kraft yea. So it's less of a jump, isn't it than saying that we've somehow made these anti gravitational dome discs and of flying them around. It's it's far easier to say when it's an object that seems more streamline and more like a normal aircraft sort of shape. Yeah. Absolutely. Anyway, So very interested to hear about some of these cases that you've got to talk about. So, yeah, we're going to jump around locations and places and
also age of these some of them more historic than others. But I think I'll start with the brand new case. You're the first person to hear this This isn't out yet on the Blooming website, so your listeners are going to be the first people to hear about this case publicly. This is literally brand new. The case actually came my way in late January this year, but I've spent the last couple of months just putting it together. There's a lot
confus that's exactly where it took place. We've managed to nail that now. And it's very very important to get exact locations where possible for these sort of things, because I can then check various websites like flight radar, etc. And look for known trapped aircraft in the vicinity. The two witnesses involved, Barbara and her sons Stephan, that went mindy showing their first names, that's what they've allowed to go out in the report. I won't share their surnames,
so I'm very very full on about witness confidentiality. We're required, so in some of the cases we're going to go through, I'm not going to name the individuals involved. And the incident took place between four and four thirty pm on Thursday, twenty fifth of January this year, and we don't know the exact to the nearest minute but we've got that rough time of it.
And at the time the witnesses were traveling back from Banbury to their home and Stafford and the some was driving and Barbara was in the passenger seat of the car, and they were heading north on the M forty two motorway just to the east of Birmingham Center Century and they were one mile after the junction seven if anybody knows M forty two, which is the turn off of the M
six North. It was very very heavy traffic that day, clear weather, the weather was the weather was nice and due to the time of year, obviously the sun had already started to go down. It wasn't fully dark, it was it was quite dark, but there was still a bit of light in the sky. And it was very very heavy traffic. So everybody, I guess everybody kind of leaving the leaving work or whatever, heading back to their homes, and the traffic was very kind of stopped start and they were
moving along very very slowly. They about one mile north of junction seven. There's a narrow bridge across the motorway. I don't think it's a pedestrian bridge as such, but not a full on road either. It's somewhere in between,
probably for construction vehicles to go across or whatever. And so the left of this bridge and on the left side to the way along the m forty two, Yeah, you've got trees, a line of trees right along the edge of the motorway, so you can't really see that far into the distance except unless you were looking right up at a very sharp angle kind of largely blocks the view. But at this bit with the bridge, it was kind
of more open. You had an embankment that kind of leads up to the top of the bridge, and the trees kind of vanished for a short period of time. And they were moving quite slowly, of course, and there was a there was a view out of the passenger side of the car to the northwest. There was a patch of sky that could be seen at that
particular location. So of course they're moving along as heavy traffic, so loads of other vehicles on the road, and they just keep stopping and starting, and Barbara looks at the passenger side window and what she sees is this dark triangular object essentially looked like an upright equial afterbal triangle essentially from the angle she was looking at it, it appeared to be between two thousand and three feet up. She estimated it was about two thirds of a football picture crass,
but it's two hundred and thirty feet so quite a sizable object. Now, it's very hard, of course, to judge distances and therefore size and speeds of things accurately, but you can usually you could usually tell the difference between a large object like a plane or helicopter and a small object like a novelty bloom rise. Yeah, it's pretty it's going to be pretty obvious to people that sort of difference, and this certainly seemed like quite a sizable thing.
Yeah. Now I had three lights on it. There was a white lights on the top point, a white lights on the lower right corner, but an orange reddish colored lights at the lower left corner, which is interesting. There was no other navigation lights on it at all, and no stropes or anything like that, so none of your usual kind of bright red or bright green lights you'd expect to see with a normal aircraft, or or white strokes
or anything. And it appeared to be stationary, but it was quite hard for a tell because of moving along and they kind of stopped starting in the traffic. She thinks it was stationary, but she said it potentially could have been moving very very slowly, but it certainly wasn't traveling fast like a like a plane. Now, she opened her window to have a clearer look at this thing, just to make sure there wasn't any reflection in the window or
anything like that blocking her view. So she got a clear view of it with the window down. And also there was no there didn't appear to be any sound that she could detector, although of course she'd have background noise of vehicles on the M two anyway. And she at this point, she pointed, so they go underneath the bridge and they lose sight of it a short for a brief time, but luckily when they pop out, the other side
of the bridge is still there. And she pointed out to her son at this point, and he kind of just quickly, you know, bends down in the driver zone and the driver's seat and has a lookout, and he too can see this object and confirms that it's trying low appears to be. Now, she she got to look look at this for up to four minutes, so this was not a quick sighting numerous minutes. She's staring at this thing. Yeah, and it was obvious to her that it was a solid
object of some kind. There was no markings on it or anything, and it appeared to be black or very very dark in color. Obviously a lot of light had faded from the sky, but they could see it kind of blocking out with the dark sky behind it. And they didn't stop due to how busy the traffic was, so at that particular point, it's very hard to hard to stop. It might obviously sometimes you've got hard shoulder to pull over, but they didn't. They didn't have Neither of them had a camera
on them at the time. The Suns had a smartphone, but it was on the back seat of the car and they couldn't reach it to attempt to, but they were too busy kind of looking at it anywhere. Baba said she was too busy instead of just staring at the thing wondering what it was, to really think about trying to get any footage of it. Now, after a while, after this four minutes has gone by, she loses sight
of it at the at the left side of the window. It took a while to work out the exact position they were on the motorway because obviously it's fading lights and it's a very long road, and we've we've been backwards and for is just checking out different places on Google street View, et cetera. And finally, in the last couple of days we've nailed the exact position as confirmed by her son, and from that we've been able to determine the elevation
that it was in the sky, et cetera. And it was, Yeah, it was kind of She would have been looking up at it at a kind of diagonal, so that meant that it would have been within a mile of their location, not particularly far over the kind of open open fields to the west side of the M forty two at that particular place. Now, looking at this, I started to kind of study it, and of course you've got to ask yourself first, was it some kind of aircraft? Yeah?
Well, she stays at it for four minutes. Yeah, if let's say it was an aircraft and it was moving away from her location, yeah, because it would have had to have been, because otherwise you just see it travel across the sky from right to left or whatever. In that space of four minutes. That's a long enough time to be able to see that it was slowly moving away to the distance, and it certainly wasn't doing that. So I don't I think an aeroplane could be ruled out completely. Now,
let's says a helicopter stationary over the fields. There's numerous reasons why it wasn't that. So, first of all, obviously shape is all wrong, didn't have standard navigation lights on it at all. Barba said she and son were both very used to seeing helicopters. They've got an air ambulance and near where they live in Stafford, so they used to seeing helicopters at different director
distances, altitudes, et cetera, different lighting conditions. But yeah, one of the main reasons I don't believe that it could have been a helicopter is that I checked on flight radar and there were no trapped helicopters in the vicinity between four and four point thirty pm on that date. Now, because of the proximity, it's not like right next to it, yeah, but proximity of Birmingham to National Airport, it's definitely in controlled airspace both above and below
four thousand feet yere. What this means is that it's very very unlikely to have been an untrapped helicopter because they're required to have a tracker on them because they're being controlled airspace, So it doesn't really sit. There's a lot of things not pointing towards a helicopter over the fields. So then you left with what else could it have been? Right, Well, kind of been a hot air balloon because hot air balloons are not allowed to fly after dark.
Plus I really only have one sort of light on them, just the flame from the basket, and this thing obviously had multiple points of lights on it. Then when was the last time you saw a hot air balloom with LEDs on it or whatever? It doesn't really fit with that. It was certainly too big to have been some kind of novelty lit balloon, led balloon or a drone. I mean, it was sizable. The thing was sizable,
certainly, and too big to have been a remote control model. So what you're left with, I mean, when you take away them the mundane explanations as far as you can tell, and what you left with, well, what you're left with is that it could well have been a genuine flying triangle sighting. Now, a lot of the time the triangles that have been reported to me at least tend to have kind of same colored lighting around around the
three points and the points, but not always. I have dealt with numerous cases where they've had either two lights or one color and one of another like this one, or even ones where all or three lights are different colors.
So you can't there's no kind of set rules to it. But I think logically you could say exactly the same about our aircraft here on Earth, couldn't you The amount of different shapes we've gotten that sort of thing, So use the same logic if it's from elsewhere, and you're going to get lots of different sort of subtypes and different shapes, sizes, et cetera. Yeah,
that's that's a really fascinating one. And as you say those kind of you know what I'm known as unambiguous black triangle sightings where you know it's seen for quite some length of time like that and moving very very slowly as well, and you know, even stationary. I just only don't know if any any aircraft that can do that, And that one's got all the hallmarks of a zypical black triangle sighting, hasn't it no? Sound very very very large?
It's so fascinating. Well, yeah, and I mean with the angle, it's odd because it looked like it was upright, Yeah, which is interesting. But then obviously, look, she's looking at it a sort of diagonal, so we don't really know whether she was kind of i mean, logically if it was lying flat, she was kind of looking at it up at a sharp angle, so it may might have made it look like it was
upright. Obviously, if she was looking at it horizontal and it was that shape, you'd be like, okay, the things moved into an upright position. Again, I've dealt with numerous cases where they do that, so there's no rules. Yeah, and it's good to know you do all of the checking on flight radar and all the various light trackers and things as well. Yeah. I've done a little bit of relatively amateur, you know, investigations
into cases and things like that. And one of my regular one of my regular listeners has got a really good camera set up where he occasionally sends me, you know, footage of things that he's captured in the sky, and one of them was a very convincing looking black triangle, but ended up we did some quite deep digging on it for a little while and ended up finding
that particular one. We were able to locate the you know, the flight path on a flight tracker, so we managed to roll that one out, but obviously not so in the case that you mentioned there, So really interesting one. Yeah, yeah, there was there was one. There was one flight, a British Airways flight. There was, but it was traveling south
southeast. It was coming down from Glasgow and head and down to London, went past the location about sort of four twelve, but it was way off to the west, like you know, at the angle she was looking up at this thing, it wouldn't have even been in sight. It would have been far and it was moving very rapidly, so in a period of four minutes it would have gone right across the sky and it would have obviously been moving, not stationary as she described, so it can't have been that.
So yeah, it's an interesting one. Yeah, spot on and very exciting to hear about this one a bit earlier than the rest of the public as well, So thanks very much for that. Yeah. So yeah, let's move on to another case. Now we're going to move abroad for this one, and it's an absolutely incredible incident it's a military case involving a flying triangle where an entire squadron of individuals, so that's twelve individuals saw this object.
I've only been able to talk with one of the individuals, the one who got in contact with us. This is the only case of investigated in the last however many years it's been now, is it sixteen seventeen dollars track? I think of sixteen. It's the only case I've ever investigated that is currently officially classified by the military, and putting out the details of it, I was kind of slightly concerned, But yeah, we'll get to that as a
nice little line a dator story which I'll take you through. But the witness originally contacted me on Facebook back in April twenty twenty one. It was a fifty two year old ex aircraft mechanic who used to serve in the Greek Air Force and took me quite a while to gain his trust, essentially because he didn't definitely didn't want his personal details going out in this one. I wanted to remain completely anonymous. So I mean that tells you something straight away.
When witnesses, you know, want their name and locations and stuff covered up. It shows that they're not in it for any kind of form of personal fame or fortune. So obviously skeptics of the subject, we'll say people are just making up stories and they want their name in headlights, in the papers and all that. But no, in most cases that's not the case at
all. The majority of cases, people they're rather happy to share kind of their first name like in the previous case, or sometimes their full name, and then you know, they say they've got nothing to hide, and you know, and it goes out. But they're not doing it to try to get any fame off it or anything or any money as such. It's not like I pay them for the information. I'm just very grateful they reach out to me. So, yeah, it comes docted me on Facebook and took
a while. We chatted backwards and forwards. Assured him I wouldn't be giving out his name to anybody. But I also it worked both ways. Yeah, I had to had to make sure he was or he says he was, because it could just be some random aunt of the Internet saying that they worked for the Air Force. Yeah. Now, in order to prove his background to me, he provided me with both photographs of his own uniform with his name on from the Greek Air Force, and also photos of him on
the actual base to prove he said who he was. I was allowed to put the censored based photos in the case report, so I wrote the sublication port as I usually do, so soon I'll be writing up the other Coleshill case we've just gone over. But he allowed me to put in ones with his face blacked out of the base photographs, but he would not allow me to put his uniform in the report. That was just for me only.
I'm not allowed to state the exact name of this base, but it's a large base on the east coast of Greece, and the incident happened in July nineteen eighty nine. He wasn't sure the exact date in that month that it happened, but he was part of a squadron on the base at the time. So squadrons made up of four aircraft mechanics, four pilots and four weapons experts, and at the time, his squadron was stationed on nights on the
base working as part of a training exercise. They were essentially going to potentially simulate an attack from a foreign power, so they were kind of on alert, so that if this fake attack came in, they would have to essentially get all the get all the planes airborne as fast as possible and get up there. But he said most of the nights would be pretty boring. They're just they just spend their time in this building at the western end of the
main runway of the base. The mechanics and I assume the rest of the squadron worked on a kind of rotation, So every couple of hours they'd shift and one mechanic would stop working the other one would get to work on the jets. And it got to twelve thirty in the morning and it was to a switch. So at this point he was inside the building with the rest of his squadron, just having a chin wag with them. But at this point the other mechanic had been outside with the with the jets came in and
he headed outside. It was a very very clear nights, he said, the stars were all visible, absolutely wonderful, and he just because he'd been inside, he just stretches and in doing so, looks up into the sky and it immediately notices three red lights in a triangular formation to the east of his location. And the cinema about five hundred meters away, which would have
put them smap bang in the middle of the base. The base is very larger than long main runway, and it was about five hundred meters away. He judged that it was an altitude of between three hundred to five hundred meters. Now, as an aircraft mechanic, obviously, or anybody in the aviation industry, he's on an airbase all the time, he's going to be a very very good judge of distances and sizes, etc. You know, far more than a regular civilian would be. That puts it a one thousand to
one thousand, six hundred feet up essentially roughly. That's at altitude. It was stationary. It appeared to have no sound coming from it whatsoever, just like the previous case. And obviously sound travels really well after dark, doesn't it. So if it was making even a low noise, you'd expect to hear that, But he said it was absolutely silent. Now, these fee
lights were clearly attached to a dark, singular, triangular shaped object. The object seemed to be about thirty to thirty five meters across hundreds, one hundred and fifteen feet across, so not huge, but certainly not small either. He called out the rest of the squadron to see it, of course,
because he's like, what earth is this? So he calls out and everybody else comes out of the building and all twelve of them are then looking at this thing from the end of the runway and they all stood there wondering what it could be. And this went on for ten minutes. None of them had any kind of smartphones or cameras on them at the time. Yeah, they're on shift. Yeah, so they wuldn't had that sort of thing.
They didn't start walking across the base towards it, So you think in that sort of time, they could have obviously started trying to get closer to the thing to find out what it is. But they're they're on command to stay near the you know, around that building area at the end of the runway. Yeah, so they didn't start walking down towards it. Staring at this thing and it's just up there, dead still for about ten minutes, and
then without warning, it instantly accelerates. He described its shooting away like a bullet. It just went bang and it was gone. It wasn't like it just blinked out. They literally saw it go and shoot away to the east, which would have been out over the sea, over the Greek Sea, because it's right on the coast of the base. So just and it's just gone. Very very impressive maneuvers, obviously not mundane in any way, shape
or form. Now, at this point they expected the alarms to go off because he thought, oh, they'll have got this thing on radar and they'll intercept it now and they'll try to get jets up in the air to go and chase after this thing or whatever. There's nothing. It's just silence, no, no alarms go off. They go back into the building obviously chat for numerous hours about what they've seen. They're all pretty fascinated by what it
could have been. And they continue their shift, and their shift come to an end about sort of six or six thirty in the morning, and at that point they change out with a different squadron and then went back to sleep in their barracks. But later in the later in the afternoon, when they woke back up the following day, they are all called to the commanding officers building. So they're thinking this is unusual. So they him and his squadron
are called to the commander. So they went there and the commander they start the conversation by informing them that they were aware that they'd seen something during the nights, So they're aware that there were witnesses of this thing. I don't know if any of them would talked or anything and it had got back to them or whatever, or they just assumed. They're giving their position on the base that would have seen it, not showing the details of that, but
they knew. But then they told them that it was a test of something like an a Wax aircraft and is one of those uh it's one of those radar planes with the large kind of disc things stuck to the top of it. I'm sure it's seen photographs of them before. And they all knew that that was absolute nonsense. Yeah, because Aoax aircraft continues to move, they're like normal planes. Yeah, they don't have they don't have silently and they
very very much don't shoot off like a bullet from an instant stop. And also the light and configuration didn't have normal navigation lights on it at all. So what they'd actually seen was absolutely nothing like an X aircraft, and they knew it and the commander also knew it, but that's what they were telling them that it was, so they knew that was nonsense. But obviously they're
in the military and they don't question it because I've been told that. Then they are told not to tell anybody about it, including their own families and friends, and the gentleman for many many years honored that and has decided to finally come forward with this information now is his retirement years. Obviously doesn't want his name going out. To his knowledge, this incident is still classified by
the Greek Air Force to this day. It's a really fascinating case. And even though it was only able to get to speak with just him, not the other people on the squadron, because obviously many many years has gone on, he hasn't kept in touch with other people off the squadron that he can put me in touch with or anything, and because of the classified nature of it, it's unlikely any of them would probably want to talk about it in
the first place. But given the fact that he validated his background, I am absolutely convinced that he is who says he is, and I'm absolutely convinced that this incident happened, and because of the maneuvering capabilities of said objects certainly not mundane, essentially flying triangle genuine one. Yeah, that's a really interesting
one. I'm always kind of mind blown by these enormous things. I mean, as you say that that wasn't perhaps one of the one of the bigger ones that I've heard about, but still something of that kind of size, you know, basically hovering in mid air and then shooting off like it's there's something particularly impressive and sort of scary about thing that can do that, especially
at an object of that kind of size, you know. Yeah, it's one of the aspects of the UFO subjects in general, of course, because it's not just fts that can do this. It's just one of the things that shows you that they're just not mundane. And you know, anybody who says it's a black project to you know, who knows what we've got behind the scenes, the capabilities of these things are farign advancer. I'd be willing to better far in advance of anything that we've got black projects wise now,
let alone in nineteen forty or nineteen thirty or even back before then. Obviously we've got historical sightings of UFOs going back hundreds and hundreds of years, right, But we've definitely got sightings from back in like wartime, et cetera of objects performing maneuvers like this. Yeah, So you can't just use logic of we're working on black, black budget stuff and we've got you know, capabilities in secret today because these things have been doing this sort of thing for decades.
So I'm absolutely convinced it's non human. Yeah, absolutely, and it's it's a shame we've not heard from more of the witnesses, But as you say, there's kind of a lot of the time with military cases, these people they want to have, you know, a regular career and get to
retirement within the military. The last thing they want to do is start becoming, you know, making a name for themselves as the guy who saw that thing or indeed yeah, yeah, And of course they were told not to talk about it, so it's not like it's not like they were just kind of should I talk about it? Should have not? Their commanding officer literally
told them this is classified. You're not allowed to talk about this. You know, a lot of the time they go into one of that, and it makes you wonder how many other cases like this are out there that I've never seen the light of day because people are just too scared to talk about
it. Yeah. Absolutely, I've had a couple of similar cases over the years as well, not to triangles particularly, but just people, as you say, who are actually from the military, and you know, obviously having a podcast now for a few years, people eventually, you know, start to email their cases in and it is always quite fascinating when you get when you get people that okay, it is you know, essentially an anecdot if
somebody's on account of something that they saw. But when they don't want when they don't want the name out, and they're not they're not trying to sort of eventually get a book deal or become a celebrity, they don't even want the name out. And like you say, I've had people with similar things where they've been in touch with me. They've they've provided details of their background, pictures of them on bases doing all, you know, everything they've done
through their career, respected members of the military. You know, we've had good careers with with with glowing records, and they have seen things, you know, and yeah, that makes it would make no sense for them. They came forward with that information, especially not if it's something in a way they could get in trouble about it. It's it doesn't logically make sense.
It makes sense for occasional civilians to make up tall tales. And you know, I feel over the years, I've kind of got quite good at actually spotting that, you know, where I can usually tell where somebody is kind of you know, you can sort of tell a lot of the time, and they'll say, can you can you forward this story to all the newspapers and that sort of thing, you know, the one it as big as possible. They want to be kind of out there with it as much as
possible, and but most people that that doesn't happen with us. I said, so, yeah, yeah, before we kind of carry on. Yeah, this little anecdojel story about this one is rather rather amusing and slightly odd. So essentially, I keep all my cases, of course on my computer that I write. Obviously the details of all electronic log records backed up from time to time. But yeah, I've got different folders with the different cases
because obviously a lot of stuff comes my way. I've always got multiple cases on the go at once and they've got'll keep it organized right. Well, a while back I was going to go and check the details of this particular case here for some reason, I think I was going to check the uniform shots or whatever, and I went to look for the folder, and the folder had vanished off my computer. Just this, just this one particular case. The interesting thing is that if I, if I had deleted a fold
off my machine, you know, it obviously tells me. Yeah, it will warn me. You know, I can't just go and delete a folder off the computer without it, you know, giving me a warning. So if I had deleted it accidentally, I must have also then also clearly you know the current confirmation message, and it wasn't sitting in my sort of recycling bin or anything. It would just gone. And I was there, and for a very short time I was like a bit barn on about this.
Yeah, went and checked on the website. It was the case report was luckily still on the Birmingham u FAGOD website, so that hadn't been. If that had been if that was gone as well off the website, I immediately would have been like, I've been hacked, you know, and it's been removed on purpose. But it wasn't it was still on the booming u Fagot website, so I would have to get the files back out of it and
save the report locally. Again, it's just it happened to happen with that one particular case, the one that was classified, and I lost the photographs as well, the photographs of the unit of his uniform that he'd sent me, not that I was ever going to share those with anybody anyway, you know, that was just done for my validation of him. Yeah, but yeah, they're gone because the folder vanished. So yeah, it's just out of all the cases that could have happened with, it happens with the one
that's classified. And I'm sure some people would go down the rabbit hole with it and be like, oh, yeah, the many black have removed it or whatever, you know, But I don't think that at all. But it's just funny that happened with that. Well, you know, strange things sometimes do happen in those kind of in those Yeah, well they don't, that's the thing, you know, that's the thing. And you know, i'd be naive to think that my group, alongside all the other active groups
in the UK and not being the surveillance going on. They're keeping tabs on what people are saying and to who and where and that sort of thing. They're they're genuinely are. I remember many many years ago seeing the It was the It was the transcript for a program that had been on television here in the UK with a number of high profile euthologists on its stand ind Freedman, et cetera. And they they'd been on the They've been on the show and
it had just gone out on normal UK television. Yeah, but they got hold of through the Freedom Information Act, So they got hold of the transcript of this show. Yeah. And at the top of it was a load of addresses where this transcript had been sent to you. And it not only included our own government and the m o D, but it also included the White House, the FBI, the CIA in the States, a number of other companies that nobody knew who they were. There were just unknown companies of
some kind had to receive the transcript of the show. And you have to ask yourself, why if there's a show going on in the UK, would they even care across in the States, what's what's going on? So that shows you straight away that sort of thing shows you that they're keeping tabs on what's happening in the world and what people are saying about the subjects. But most of the time they probably don't really care whether the details go out or
not. I think it's only really the really high, big, high profile cases where the military have been involved with some kind of cover up of things, and that's where I've tried to shut shut them down and shut down witnesses and that sometimes even bribing. Yeah, absolutely, I think it's It's one of those, isn't. It depends like how far you want to go down
the rabbit hole of that particular that particular line of thinking. But at the very least governments will and militaries and you know, and intelligence kind of agencies and whatnot, of course, are going to want to monitor people who are
specifically looking into cases of odd things being seen in the sky. Yeah, because because at the very least those people may have accidentally caught some classified military testing, you know, in images, and they're going to want to say, at the very least there could be a lot more to it down that
path as well. But yeah, this certainly going to want to keep tabs on what is being spotted and obviously if they are, and of course it will be testing classified vehicles as well, So I'm not saying that all of the sightings are that, but those people like like us, and particularly like yourself who's literally compiling databases and actively seeking out people's sight of odd things in the sky, they're going to be thinking, I wonder what if he's caught
any of our testing, And as I say, as an extension of that, you know, depending on the extent of the uk M or these involvement in actually studying UFOs, it could go a lot deeper than that as well. But obviously that's that's very difficult to close across on the subject being a lot more open in the states of recent years, of course, but still the long way to go, should we say, baby steps? Yeah,
let's move on to another fascinating case for you. I'm going to bring this home back to Birmingham now, and this is a case that came one of my own years of UFO investigation, and the incident took place Irdington and area of Birmingham, just kind of up near the center. Really, it's quite highly populated. It's not on the outskirts of brummerun Thing and the incident took
place at some point between nineteen ninety nine and two thousand and three. Right you probably listeners are probably thinking, why on earth is that so vague? WHI would the witness not be able to put it down to time a year or anything? Yeah, or even the year or yeah, that's a long period of time, right, four years. Yeah, But there's a very valid reason for that, which we'll get to. So this is a it's an incredible case. It's a landing of a flying triangle. The case also
has elements of concepts in it will which we'll get to. So it involved are two witnesses whose names are not going to reveal. They were in the early twenties at the time, and one of them, the key, key witness I was initially talking with, used to attend Birmingham a faux group's monthly meetings. So that's how he first got in touch with me. I guess his experiences led to an interest in the subject or whatever, and he approached
me and told me he wanted to talk about it. He used to live on Holly Lane at the time of the incident, Holly Lane in Urdington. Used to live there with his family, just normal SEMy detached houses. Opposite their particular house on the road is this big area of rough grassland behind the fence. They nicknamed it the Tip, and he used to go there some
late evenings taking his dog for a walk. Someone have sort of sneaky cigarettes behind his parents back and he used to meet up with his friend and they kind of got dog walking together or whatever across there. So on the night of the incident, he met with his friend lived in the neighborhood, and it was somewhere between sort of eleven pm to one am. He's not sure
the exact time, but it was certainly fully after dark. They're very very late, and it was a lovely clear night again, really brilliant weather, just clear and mild, and he looked to the east over the tip and they were just standing there on the edge of the road, you know, just getting ready to take the dog for a walk. And they looked to the east over the tip and in the distance they could see a triangle of
red lights come from the east course to Grease. But yeah, this triangle of red lights is just moving slowly to their left, and they in just in the distance over the trees on the far side of this area of grassland, and they were they were straight away. Kind of a bit confused by it. I thought that it was a bit odd. It doesn't look like normal navigation lights if you don't think too much of it, right, But
they realized it was starting to move their direction. As it gets a bit a bit closer, they mentioned that there was a distortion type effect going on around the lights, kind of wobble. I've actually had other cases where the exact same thing has been reported, and it's possible indication of some kind of energy field. It wouldn't say for definite, but yeah, the possibility and magnetics we don't really know. But there was this distortion around these lights.
It was continuing to get closer. It was coming in their direction and it seemed to be silent. And as it got nearer, they realized it was this black, triangular shaped object coming up to a point at the top. How they read the red lights. They could see there was a small red light at each of the corners underneath, and then a larger light in the middle of the base of this thing. Now, the key witness thinks this was also red, but the other witness, when I spoke with him,
he thought it was a yellow or white in color. You do often get these kind of little discrepancies between multiple witness statements. That's absolutely standard. It doesn't mean that the case is made up or anything like that at all. If let's say the police interview ten people who've seen a car accident, for example, there'll be slight variations between their different testimonies. It's just human nature.
But this object was It was slowly towards them, and it came over the fence on the far side of the road, descending as it came, and I couldn't believe it. They're just standing there looking at this thing. Mayre's the game, and it comes down and it lands in the road in front of them. It was within a stone's throw of he said. It didn't touch the actual road surface, seemed to kind of come down to about a couple of feet off the road and then just stop and it was just
sitting there. But at this point, the key witness I initially spoke with, he started to hear these very strange sounds coming from the thing. Described it as kind of a rhythmic sort of a noise, a bit like a dig wedoo, sort of a whoo sort of sound. Now, when I spoke with the other witness, the other witness didn't recall this sound at all. Yer to him, it was completely silent when it was on the ground. A really really interesting discrepancy between the two experiences, and we'll come back
to that as a possible reason for that, which I'll explain. So, after staring at this for about a minute, not knowing what to do, they're just standing on the street corner looking at this thing, and in front of them, the dog was down by his side. It just suddenly bolts for the house and it runs straight past the strangler object and runs towards the house of the key witness, and they don't see it again after that.
I speaked by what was happening. A moment later. The object takes off silently, and it starts to lift off, moves that a kind of diagonal up into the air, and they think it's going to keep going. It kind of travels to the southwest short distance, but it stops directly over the roof of the key witness's house, and so it kind of moved up and then it halted about fifteen feet above the chimney of the house, and it
remained there for about thirty seconds. They're still standing there watching it, just not knowing really what to do. And then it continued and it was lost from sight behind the housing air so it kind of moved off against and they
lost sights of this thing. Now they wanted to keep watching it. Yes, they run down this side road that came off Holly Lane called Hollydale Road on the side streets and behind the housing there's a flat open area of garden allotments behind this tall fence and you can peep over the fence and see the allotments and what do you know, objects completely gone. No, that's again
a common thing that happens time and time again. So when witnesses kind of lose sight of an object for a brief moment, it uses that opportunity to get out of there. Obviously, people have different views on whether that means that it's intelligent and knows it's being watched or whatever, or if it's just coincidental. Maybe it's a mix of the two. But yeah, the thing was just out of there. They can't remember what happened next. They think
that they must have gone back to their own homes. But the interesting thing is in the morning when they woke up, neither of the witnesses could remember it at all, the entire the entire incident had been wiped from their minds. Now, even when they walked over to the tip, Yeah, they had no inkling, They didn't kind of get spooked out. Now, the only incling that anything had gone on. The only sign was that the dog was afraid to go over to the tip after this, but he didn't know
why. Yeah, they didn't really think too much of it, but the dog seem spooked. But not even that triggered their memories of the incident, of seeing this objecture and the incident only came back to the key witness when
he moved house. And he moved house for his family in two thousand and three, right so that at that point he leaves the area is no longer on Holly Lane, And within weeks of doing that, within weeks of moving away from the area, it just comes back to him one day, just kind of like remembering an old memory, like you know, a holiday you've being on a few years back, and you think back to it like that, and he's thinking, why did I forget that? How on earth could
I forget seeing this weird tragular object come down. So he calls his friend. Yeah, calls his friend and says, do you remember when we saw that thing, that triangular object? And that triggers his friend's memory of it, and then his friend can remember it too, But up until that point, neither of them could remember it. So the trigger was his memory coming back, and then he managed to trigger the memory of his friend just by talking about the incident with him. Again, a very kind of I would
say, common aspect of missing time. I've dealt with other cases that like this to the letter, where something will be completely removed from somebody's mind for a period of time, and there's usually some kind of trigger, like there might see a light that reminds him of the thing or something like that, or sometimes it might come back in a dream or a daytime flashback or whatever various ways it can come back. But again, you've got this pattern that
goes on with this. That's kind of not really the end of the story, because he thought of this, Yeah, he thought this incident, the key witness was thinking about and remembering this what happened, bro, And he started to recall an earlier memory. This is really interesting. He recalled an earlier memory of being about ten or eleven years old and sitting in his bedroom and hearing the same sound that he remembered coming from the craft but as a
child. Here now it's we never really got to the bottom of what this was. He wanted to be regressed, but we attempted a regression, so I worked with a hypnotherapist here and we attempted a hypnotic regression, but he couldn't sink into that regressive state. Some people are just kind of they can't relax enough to be hypnotized, and he couldn't relax enough. So it was essentially a fouled attempt at a regression. So we didn't get any further details
aback from that. But looking at it, it's a possibility there that he was an experienced contact and maybe this craft was there for him, and maybe that's why only he heard the sound, not his friend. Of speculating here, I'm not saying that's definitely what went on with that, but there was implications that potentially that could have been. So, yeah, that's the that's the details of what went down with that incredible incident. Yeah, incredible is
definitely the word for it. It's really a really interesting one there, and it brings up some some some interesting kind of points about differences in witness testimony as well. Obviously, as we all know, skeptics kind of jump on those little tiny, you know, discrepancies and things like that, and well that's it. I mean, in some cases I kind of see why why
you know, why that analysis take place, if you will. But in actual fact, when when we're talking about those kind of differences in the different sort of testimonies from witnesses, you know, it's actually quite interesting. Like you say, sometimes one person hears a sound and the other person doesn't, and that's not actually a shaky recollection that suggests the case is a bit dodgy. It's actually a feature than as they say. And do you think that
do you think that? Actually? I think with that, I think I think with the sound one hundred percent. Yeah, because there's it's very I mean, it was there for a number of minutes, right, so it seems very unlikely that his friend wouldn't have also heard these noises coming from the thing. Yeah, So for whatever reason, he could hear it and his friend couldn't. Yeah, and then you've got him having this earlier memory of hearing the same sound in his room. He's got no reason to have that
previous memory. Yet it indicates that he'd this was not the first time he'd encountered this craft. You know that he'd encountered it as a child before. And it's it's entirely possible that when it approached them and the reason why it was landing in the road in front of them. Yeah, and we don't even know if this is the whole story, right, because they had the memories blocked out. Yeah, they lost all memory of the incident, so
we don't know whether it really was just on the road. Maybe more went on that they're not remembering. Maybe more went on after they lost sight of it. Maybe it came back and something else happened, And we don't know. And we were hoping to get to the bottom of and maybe get to the bottom of that by regressing the key witness, but it unfortunately he couldn't
be regressed. But I do believe that regression can be used to retrieve missing memories and sort of sea passed screen memories where the beings kind of mass their appearance and that sort of thing. I've seen some very very successful examples of that over the girls, but obviously it's very controversial. Yeah, I think. I think the first talk I heard you give obviously the minicon was specifically
about skin. That's correct, Yeah, I did. Yeah, because that particular aspect of the content phenomena is something I find particularly fascinating, that the beings not only have the well potential a bit of I should say potential, shouldn't I because we don't know if it's definitely them doing it, as I described in my in my lecture, we don't really know. There's a lot of there's a lot of aspects to that particular element of the phenomena that I
believed needed to be kind of examined to a deeper level. So I attempted to do that. And yes, it's forever fascinating to me that, Yeah, definitely. And do you think that that that's all points into the kind of possibility of manipulation of people's perceptions and people memories when we see those kinds of discrepancies in not all of them, of course, because I think sometimes there could be a discrepancy and witnesses to me that could actually blind to something
that is working. In terms of the case being a bit dodgy, but I think certainly other times it seems it seems clear that that there is some kind of manipulation of perception, and even cases like where there's that that case that Jacques Vala had looked at where they saw one shape, took a picture of it, and when they developed the photographs it was a completely different shape.
Yeah, Yeah, that's really yeah, some of that stuff. Yeah, I've had I've had people where they've kind of tried to take a photograph of something they can see in the naked eye. Yeah, but when they take the photograph, there's nothing on the photograph and yeah, and they're absolutely
convinced that it was there in the sky. Yeah. That really makes you wonder what's going on with this, And it's kind of are we dealing with something that's actually physically there or is it just appearing to them and it's in
some sort of other realm of reality. There's all sorts of like really deep elements that come out through through some of the cases on record and some of the ones I've investigated over the girls are just absolutely fascinating, and that we've got these particular aspects where you're like, wow, you know what if you
know what's exactly what exactly is going on with this stuff. Yeah, absolutely, well, I mean we've not got too much time left, but I was just wondering if you've got any thoughts just in general about black triangles, Like, obviously we know they've got these, as we've discussed quite a bit
actually over the last hour. You know, they've got these often quite similar characteristics, moving very very slowly or stationary and shooting off the no sound, often at very very low altitudes as well the lights, which is obviously particularly baffling on it almost seems in some cases that there's certainly not hiding if they've got lots of lights on them and they're so low and that kind of thing.
I just wonder if you've got any theories obviously we can't say for sure, but the theories as to what black triangles are actually doing, I mean reconnaissance typework. I And as I said, I've dealt with a number of contact cases where people have literally been taken aboard black triangles and have experienced an abduction experience with gray beings and sometimes other types as well. So yeah, I think they've got numerous different agendas. Maybe there's certain types that do a
certain thing. You know that nothing is set in stone with this, you know, there's no kind of definite role like, oh, if it's a really big craft, it's here for this particular purpose or anything like that. Yeah, because I guarantee you'll find you'll find other cases that are the exact opposite of that. You know, all we could see is the similarities in
the shapes and the capabilities of these things. The size varies, obviously, sometimes these things are absolutely ginormous, like the phoenix, like the incredible phoenix lights incident with the obviously that was delta shaped, not specifically triangular, but triangular ish, shall we say. I actually dealt with the witness of a military witness who was actually a witness to the Phoenix lights for many, many
years. I actually really really hoped that I'd get to speak with at least one witness of that event, because it was seen by hundreds and hundreds of people, and a number of years ago I investigated it was a contact case. And the gentleman had had experiences throughout his life, numerous UFO sightings and contact experiences as a child, and he'd moved across the States and served in the military and the States and had even had contact type of experiences occur on
a full space where he was. But yeah, he was actually a witness to the Phoenix lights incident, which was he was really fascinating speaking with somebody had actually seen it with their own eyes. Yeah, do you know that's a really good point. He made me think when you were when you were talking there, I mean obviously pondered this a lot, you know what I mean in terms of what these things are in and you know, and all the rest of it, and had discussed it at length with with with folks.
But it's a really good point there is that the shape and size of an object doesn't necessarily, you know, determ in the function. Like if we look at I was just thinking, made me think when you were saying there, if we look at the example of lorries or HGVs. Heavy good vehicles freight trucks, depending where you are in the world, those things are essentially the same shape, big, big old vehicle with lots of wheels that can haul large objects up and down you know, roads and whatnot. Some
of those might be used for carrying frozen goods. Some of them might be used to carry formula one car. Some of them you might be used to carry people, you know what I mean, It's a very similar shape object, but all of them have completely different functions. So yeah, absolutely, yeah, I don't think there's any there's no kind of definite rules with this. You'll always find cases that don't fit if you put down any particular role.
You'll find because it's such a complex subject and there's so much going on with it, and you get a lot of similarshes, but also you get differences coming out with cases. But I've seen enough to convince me that flying triangles are at least some of them are non human flown things. I mean there's even cases where they've seen these things down on the ground and have seen
alien beans, grays or whatever in their vicinity. So how do you explain that if it's military what they're wearing suits, it's so you know, there's there's enough going on with it that that means that there's an alien elements to to that particular craft type. But yeah, very interesting spot on. Well he thanks very much, Dave for joining. It's been an absolute pleasure.
I've found that super interesting. I'm sure they listen as well as well, and I'll make sure to leave some links to burning UFO group and to yourself as well in the description. For anybody who would like to check out some more of your work. I'm sure there'll be plenty who will want to do so. And yeah, just thanks again, David. It's been a pleasure, no problem. Yeah, yeah, the cases have gone over today, so obviously two of them already on the site and they invest goation side.
You can look up the Irdington one in there, you can look up the East Coast Greece one, and soon you've had to look up the other brand new one as well. So yeah, there's a there's a section on the site and it's got literally hundreds of cage reports in there written by myself and
the other investigators for Birmingham U four group over the last sixteen years. There's a hell of a lot of information in there to check out, and some other interesting stuff on the site too, So if anybody wants to get involved, if anybody's in the Birmingham area, you're more than welcome to come down to our monthly meetings which take place on the first Thursday of every month in Oldbury. So if you live in the area of the Midlands, you're more
than welcome or you want to travel. Most of our meetings we tend to have speakers come and talk. We've also got a Facebook community page boof Fog truth Seekers, So I'm the sole l admin of that site, of that community page. So if you add yourself to that, that's where we chat between meetings and post links to reports and interesting articles, etc. So yeah, come and get involved, even if you're even if you're you live too far away to attend our meetings or whatever, by all means, join us
on Facebook and say hello spot on perfect. Well, yeah, thanks again, Dave, I'd love to do it again sometime in the future. Indeed, yes, sure things Franks always happened to talk. Great stuff. Thank you, Thank you very much. You are funking the podcast.