Did I get it.
From anybody out there? Welcome back to Calling All Beings. I'm your host DJ.
And I'm your co host Boston Bia.
And this is Calling All Beings TCU True Crime Unsolved And guess what now that Karen reads freed? Who were you gonna talk about tonight?
I'm sorry, we're gonna talk about Sandra Burchmore?
Sorry about that? Wow? Okay, all right, rough start to the night here. All right.
I do not know where I would like because I know Tricia can hear me. If you would please text Suzanne Cleveland and find out where she be because she is not Yeah, yeah, not good.
Do y'all have her number?
Yeah?
I can call her.
Yeah, if you would go and call her. And I'm going to bring on our first guest right here. I don't know if I'm supposed to say her last name, so I'll just say her first name. I got to have the fortune of meeting her at a Andrew Birchmore stand out and she's one of the stalwarts, and she's now doing her advocacy on her own, as is Suzanne, and I've wanted to talk to her for a while and get her insights and thoughts about the case, as
well as Suzanne, who's been on several times. So without further a yeah, people put the mans together for Tricia.
Hello, Hello, welcome Tricia Mark.
Hello, thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure to have you. You have some of the coolest I wear in the entire community.
I hear that from many that say that, thank you.
That's fair to say. I think that that's fair and inappropriate. So well, are you are you making a phone call?
I did. I called to voicemail.
Let me she is you know, she is a person who is late.
Okay, yeah, no like Phil Collins, no reply at all. All right, we'll say.
To people right to but yeah, let's say hi to everyone while she.
I'll send you the link right now. That's the way I went. And so she can't get on it. I'm gonna send her the link.
I just sent it to her on herself.
She just sent it on your text.
Yeah I did. Yeah, okay, yeah, tell her it's from.
DJ It's in your text Chuck Yard.
Yeah, is there another I can email it.
I can send it again. How about I'm sending it.
She needs it in our email?
Okay, does she have a laptop, because that's where because then it could be an X.
All right, here, she's going to send it to herself. She'll be right on.
Okay, awesome, that's good news. All right. Oh man, that's right. This somebody there's that fellow Paul Ryan trying to get a hold of me about the about what is this? If? What is that? Okay?
Uh, Paul Ryan trying to get a hold of me about Sandra Burch. I'm gonna have to get a hold of him.
Uh.
In the meantime, Hello, aka the cat Lady, thank you for modding.
Uh.
This is somebody here. So that's the cat Lady. She is one of our mods. And this young lady does anybody know her? Yeah? Well of course, yeah.
There she is your homie, your bestie, except for when Joanne is there, right, and Joanna's.
In the house, So listen, be careful.
I got two best all right, Yeah, so there's two. Just to be clear, there's two besties.
All right. Uh, where's Joanna? Where's shit?
I just saw her?
Oh okay, Oh look who's here?
Yes?
Hell from Deem College, twenty nine years on the board of trustees.
Terry Robbins's here, and I love Terry. She's amazing. So much was this lady right here?
Oh?
Look who's here? All right? All right, hello val hell La.
This is the official attorney of calling all beings val Hella law Or.
She says it better than I do, but you get it. You get it.
Something to do with Valhalla Vikings and retired Massachusetts lawyer.
But right now, let us.
Welcome in your homegirl, right there, your partner in crime doing this damn thing.
Party people put him together for Susan Cleveland. Welcome, Suzanne.
Hi, guys, Soria. I came in a little hot and late.
That's okay.
So we've got ac problems here, so watch me sweat.
That's a big problem.
That is a big problem because I heard it's been hot in Massachusetts. So everybody welcome. Coco is here. Let me just see who else we got to say, Oh, lady Zelda Kelly. We oh my goodness, we still got to work with her on a day to be on her show. So I will message you tonight, Lady Zelda.
Hey, darling, you are there. You I'm not, So we got that out of the way.
Uh.
Trisha's like, why is DJ doing this act? Since he sounds really silly? And there's Joanna soon now I know. Hi, Joanna and Marie the other is that your other bestie?
Yeah, Joanna and Lulu Bell are my besties.
There we go and there's money. Yeah, all right, all right, so we're in Gene. Hi, welcome, and now let's get this damn thing going. So I thought I would you know, let's just pretend we just got to.
The dive bar and we've just ordered. Before your meal gets here, you want some as they say in Ingland, do you want a stata before your meal gets it? You want a stata. So that's what they call appetizers.
So I thought, as an appetizer, we would start off with that and then we're gonna let you guys just kind of freewheel however you want to go, which is exactly how Suzanne likes it free wheeling. So with that, so I ordered these zucchini sticks with the ranch, just in case you're wondering the appetizer order.
So the latest thing is.
That can you please detail and talk about the fact that someone in the FBI or Department of Justice illuminated that the fetus that Sandra was pregnant with was not, in fact Matt Farwell's baby.
So you want me to take this one.
Any any one of you can start, both of you get shot.
Yeah, okay. So it's interesting how you say that, you know, we were we became aware of that factoid through either the do o J or FBI, because it's anonymous source, right, But interesting how some of the facts have come our way. That one. It's on the surface. I mean, it is a bombshell. It is a bombshell. It doesn't at all take any thing from the fact that Matthew Farwell did
it allegedly. I guess we'll see how the case plays out, but obviously Matthew Farrewell is still a number one monster, and the issue of the baby's DNA not matching with Matthew Farrewell is at least in my opinion, it's more about the fact that that means there's more there's more than one monster here. We kind of know that, but
to what to what extent? I mean, we're not going to find out with relative ease, you know who who the possible father of the baby is or was, because it was a big deal to get the DNA in the first place from Matthew Farrewell. And my understanding is that it eliminates his brother too. And we know who a couple of the other abusers of Sandra, you know, were there's They're still alive, they're still here, and there hasn't been any any real accountability or responsibility handed to
them yet. I say yet, because I'm so hopeful that others will be punished. But it doesn't the DNA, I don't want to say, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that Matthew Farwell he did what he did and needs to go down in every way, shape and form. And those who are saying, well, he killed her for no reason, or he killed her for nothing, then.
He killed her to silence her, No, I'm saying he will think he killed her for nothing.
He oh, no, no, no, I understand. I'm saying that you know the idea that you know you did that, and he must be racking his brain thinking, I can't believe I did that for no reason. I mean, we can't really get into the mind of a killer on that level anyway, So let's not even try. But the the moving towards silencing and you know, putting an end to I guess the alleged trouble that that Sandro was causing by by trying to develop any sense of agency and
independence during her her final months on this earth. It's that's what it's about. It was about ending her her agency, her her free her her strength, her voice. It was it was way more about that than it was about, sadly than it was about a baby or the you know, the presence of a baby. And and she should be here to have had the chance to to have a life and and figure out how a function in a world that was not very kind.
To her, right, Yeah, and that that also could be a topic of discussion.
But what were your thoughts on that, Trish? What what was your sort of reaction when you heard that.
I guess as it's an unsourced it's not source that that he wasn't in fact the father.
Yeah, it didn't weigh much for me.
I don't really think it it mattered.
Okay, interesting, very It was interesting because you know, for us it was very illuminating because we thought for sure that he he was the dad, and that that was his motivation, his primary vote. I don't think he would have ended her life were he not the dead at least if he thought that.
He wasn't the dad. I don't think he would have her life. And so from that standpoint, I, oh, look who's here? The legend? Oh I Jen Ruth, what's up? Yes, another legend. And there's so many legends in here. Look at this.
We got Leanbravo and Dennis and Terry, Coco, Lulubell, Joanna.
I mean, there's just talks of you in here.
They're all here the hole.
Yeah, Boston, Brandy's here. What's the holmes and roths? Right?
And great support out there?
We do we do?
All?
Right? Then there was one other thing that I was going to ask you guys that Kate just popped into my head today. Oh, how how do we know when the first time?
Was it something that she told a family member that Sandra was actually taken advantage of by one of these officers? What that we know that it was like fifteen as opposed to fourteen or sixteen, Not that it matters, but just I'm curious, how where did that?
What's the source on that information?
I'm going to I'm going to jump in with that.
I don't so we don't necessarily know outside of the very full throttle investigation that the FBI did and going in the wayback machine and you know, calling through the messaging and the conversations that she was having, which were really distressing conversations mind you, that she was having with Matthew Farwell, you know, going down memory lane and sort of I don't know if it was in an enticement or it was just sort of how they communicated regularly.
But it was in twenty twenty that she was referring to those those dates and having a really thorough discussion
about them, which was disturbing. I don't think that there was anything that came out about discussing with a family member other than you know, she talked to her family members about what was going on in her life and her romantic interests and and and that she had a relationship with the police officer and that it was complicated, and that he was married, and and and that she was hoping, you know, that maybe there was a chance that they could be together in the future if if
his marriage didn't you know, work out. But no, there wasn't really a you know, can we point to this origin other than you know, her not being alive in them having to do an investigation that that covered a lot of written material as well as messaging that referred to the dates and the onset of the relationship. So there's there's a lot of layers to how they came across those dates.
A big thank you to Amy's Positive Pathways, who just just got certified and in this sort of counseling that she had trained for and got her masters in.
Thank you for being a member for I appreciate that. Thank you.
I'm gonna let you guys take it away with where you want to go with it, because I don't think I need to steer this conversation. So jump in, be if you've got something, or if Chrisia, if you've got something, you can throw that out there. Otherwise we can just let these ladies do their damn thing because they've got lots.
Hi Joe, I'll let you then lead away and I'll chime it.
All right, go for it, take it away, Susan.
Trishy, you're gonna have to chime in, chime in sooner rather than later. So so how we how we sort of came to be as as involved in this case as as we still are. Obviously it's just the hearing about Sandra's death and being members of the community where we're we're all humans, mothers, aunts, daughters, people who care
about our neighbors and children in the community. We were just really shocked and stunned that even when we didn't know that she didn't take her own life, it was already a tragic enough story when the original story broke. So here we are in the middle of this state of affairs in Massachusetts with other high profile cases afoot and in this case drops and it doesn't even really make a lot of traction and noise, and col Atrician
and I came to know each other. Was just the shock and trying to represent a voice for Sander Birchmore and kind of being amongst this crowd of justice seeking warriors and just looking at each other saying what we need to do more for for Sander Birchmore, I mean not she ultimately doesn't have any voice, and it was heartbreaking. And along the way, we've discovered that there's a huge need to figure out one how this could ever in a million years happen to anyone, and two how can
we prevent it? So there's been a lot of research and work going on to with with task force and panels who are educated on these matters, even law enforcement professionals who are tasked with apprehending these monsters, all towards the goal of not only finding justice for Sander Birchmore,
but how do we prevent this from continuing? How do we help other potential I don't even want to say potential victims in the community, because there's just no doubt whatsoever that others were impacted by this ongoing treasure behavior. So it becomes a matter of creating a safe space and maybe a way for anybody to reach out. And mind you, not all of us have a master's degree or or have the means to do an investigation or create safety, but damn it, we will point you to
where you need to go. There's there's a lot of safe, caring people in this in this justice community, and there's no doubt in my mind that if somebody were to feel comfortable having a conversation to just start with you know, hey, I'm upset thinking about what happened to Sander birch More. I you know, I knew her growing up. I'm sad about I need to talk to someone. If we don't know who the person is to talk to, we're going to find it out, you know, we'll figure it out together,
but the community needs to heal other. First of all, there should never be the existence of another Sander birch More case. But that it happened at all means that that a lot needs to happen to prevent and create awareness and and to heal moving forward, and it is possible to educate the communities and create, you know, a multidisciplinary way to help everybody.
When I first heard of Sandro's story and started diving into a bit and learning that it started at Stote O'Donnell Middle schools, that screamed to me.
My son was currently at the school at that time.
When when I found out that piece of the story, and so pulling up to that school every day, I saw three you know three, there was three cop cars there. There was officers in the school. My son would tell me, and I would think how great it was that he was safe. The police department were involved in the middle school, in the high school. And to find out Andrew's abuse started in Stoton o'donald Middle.
School floored me.
It floored me as a parent, it floored me as a member, a community member in Stoughton, and it brought a lot of shame to me that I didn't know, and I asked myself how many others didn't know? And I thought I should know about that as a parent, and that just you know, there was a moment there where I just asked myself.
What was I going to do about that?
And that's when I found out about the first standout that I attended in November of twenty three, and just felt compelled to show up and try to give Sandra a voice.
And you know, to this end, because Coco's bringing it up here and both of you have alluded to it and.
I've discussed it before. What do you think about that a parent of the explorer Cadre A companies kids on all training events that there's no And it's it's crazy to say this as we say it, because we're saying, Okay, the kids are not safe with police, like, which is like, wait a minute, they're they're the ones that protect them against predators, right.
But but the FBI agent that came on, he was on with Mike, He was on with that guy Todd, the former MSP guy.
Can't think of his last name right now, Todd. It was around the time of the Enrique that Enrique isn't alive and McGee, Yeah, Todd McGee. There was an FBI agent that appeared a couple of times with Todd McGee and he said, my kid don't go anywhere alone when when we're.
Doing scouting, the boy scouts. None of these guys are alone with my kid, you know, So that that's that's how it goes. So what do you guys.
Think about parents of a Cadre member required on all events so that guys and gals are not alone with these guys. Guys, what do you think about that?
Well, I'll jump off for part of that, and if Tricia has any input, obviously go for that as well. But they never were supposed to be alone and one on one the biggest issue. And I'm not saying, hey, let's, you know, not rule out the Explorers program because clearly it is I don't know if defunct is the right word, but certainly as it as it exists now, or with the problems that have been prevalent for so many years, it can't continue the way that it is or has been.
But the agreement and policy and procedure that was supposed to be upheld throughout this entire period and through many other treacherous stories regarding the Explorers is that no one is supposed to be one on one right alongs are not supposed to happen without another law enforcement professional or another you know, they just weren't supposed to be solo rides.
Well, one thing, I don't mean to cut you off. If it were far well and Robert Divine, is that acceptable.
Well, obviously not well of your origin story where there was already there was clearly already something bad afoot back when it was you know, the boys riding along and that you know there their interest in becoming law enforcement professionals, stoked by their admiration for a dude like Robert Divine that got them there. That was that was clearly an origin story for for their mental defects.
But if you had, if you had a parent riding along, then that couldn't have happened.
You had one member of one Explorer.
Parent on each night day whatever however this has going down, uh that so that they're not alone, then it can't happen, right that it's not creezy, say, well.
It's not something to rule out obviously if there's a if there's a parent, that that would and will do that. But what we're dealing with here and which is really prevalent with Explorers, and and I don't mean this to any offense anyone here who's been through the program and has been part of an intact family, but there are a lot of children going through Explorers that are there because they don't have an intact family, or they are
seeking guidance from other respectable, admirable adults. So that that makes it even more of a betrayal that you maybe there are kids who are I don't want to stay lost, but those who are looking for guidance. And you know, I was a single mother my daughter, you know, part of what got me involved in this story is or this case is just realizing that, holy shit, this girl looks like my daughter. I mean, they're relatively the same age.
And my daughter grew up around law enforcement and participated in in DARE and programs like that, and what we had in our lives that was different was relationships with law enforcement professionals that were part of her life that would say to somebody, you know, don't mess with you know, don't mess with her. Right, I'm not going to say her name, because you know it's her story to tell.
But she said, I even if there were somebody who was going to behave inappropriately, which she did not, thankfully encounter, she had a stepfather or cousins or uncles that would say you better stay the hell away from her, or you got to answer to us. Nobody should really need that extra layer of protection. It should be embedded in the programs and the resources themselves that there just shouldn't be. There shouldn't be any loose ends like that, and there shouldn't be, but here we are.
The very nature of the position is called law enforcement. I mean like it's.
Supposed to be baked into their title that this wouldn't happen. It's it's part of what they're supposed to be preventing. Would you like to answer this one, Tricia, this question that Julie has our mod Jules, Yeah.
I've been staring at that question for you. I've been staring at it.
Yeah, what do you say?
Of course, there's many others. There are others, and that's why we're here tonight to try to reach.
Out to people even within that department.
Do you have intel that there were several others that were victims of the Stoughton police officer exports, yes you do.
Yes, that's well.
So we both we both had conversations with individuals, whether at a standout or even you know, dive bar, during downtime, during just friendly you know conversations, maybe even through social media where somebody has identified as being harmed or affected
in some way. And and we've even at least I think both Trishian I have met people who identified as being in recovery from some type of abuse and just felt that it was a safe space to bring up the subject and say, boy, I'm really glad y'all are here to start a conversation because I was feeling a
certain kind of way. Crowds are intimidating, but you seem approachable, And that's exactly the kind of dialogue that we both want to start, or many people want to start, is to just identify as a safe person and say I'm so sorry that you've had an experience that they brought you here that made you interested in in her case, because let's face it, it's a grueling, difficult, sad, upsetting case. If somebody is showing up for it, there's a really
good chance that they're struggling with something themselves. And I've found that a lot and talking to people. Some people are affected just by knowing that that they grew up with her and were in you know, a classroom setting or sports with Sandra and felt survivor's guilt because of not, you know, not being able to recognize warning signs or that she was in distress. You know, I thought she
was okay. She was always really nice and had a lot of energy and was kind to others, and it just makes it that much more devastating.
And there was others that when she did share what was going on in the relationships that she was having, they didn't believe her. And there was a lot of that going And then people now today looking back who did go to school with her did not you know, they were kids themselves, right, They were kids themselves, They
were teenagers themselves. They weren't the ones targeted and then that scenario, but going through high school, you know, they just they couldn't see it, so and they struggle with not believing our or giving our hard time in school or whatever the case may be.
That that podcast by Kirk Minihan, they found at least one girl that they interviewed that said they that she knew that. I don't know if she had a kiss with Divine, but there was something in the laundry room, so that there was certainly.
It was in a closet at Stone O'Donnell Middle School. It was very clear to me that was part of the story that really floored me because my question was how did not others notice?
Well, like I said, because you.
With an administration the day to day, because that's where the relationship essentially started and took place, was during those hours where they could have access.
This gets back to there shouldn't be any one of them alone with these officers. There should be a parent and it could be a family, like Suzanne said, Well, maybe they don't have a nuclear mom and dad.
Maybe they only have one or the other. That's what we're looking at today, cousin. We have more vulnerable.
Children today and that's what they target is vulnerable children and families, addiction abuse, pre existing vulnerable.
They know how to choose, and apparently Coco wants to know because of the effort required, how dirty was Tima's toilet that it took him that long? So I think Tima, you're gonna have to roger up to that I don't know how dirty it was, but it's okay, you know what I mean, everybody, everybody's got toilet duty, no pun intended.
To that.
But in a school setting, you wouldn't expect a parent to be walking around. So in a school setting, that means that there's teachers that shouldn't be allowing the children in the hallways by themselves to have even the opportunity to get into a closet with a cop like you see what I mean, Like you can't just say the parent should be walking around school too. I mean, we wouldn't let our kids allowed, right right.
Actually, I want to add, I want to add to be his point because this actually shows up quite a bit in the in the investigation, the internal investigation, that there was quite a bit of passing of the buck. There was this school administration saying, well, I don't know that's that's divine. Robert Devine was able to hide a
lot behind the whole. Well, this is his program. This is something that he set up, and he would say that my program's independent of the oversight of blah blah blah, and the school would say, our programs are in our separate from his. This is this is the divine thing. You've got to You've got to check with the police, and he would tell the police, Oh, no, this is separate.
So there was a lot of plotting and scheming in order to make make it so that no school administrator was was thinking about having these awkward conversations, and nor was the police department, because they already had some issues going on and some problems afoot with their own you know, shady dealings they were. The Stoughton Police Department was still in recovery from a full blown you know, Rico case that was waiting on ten years when Robert Devine was able to slide in as soon as the and I
say slide in with purpose. FBI had just sort of left watching over Stoton PD when the new power came in with with Chief Shastiny and Divine, and they were supposed to be the ones to clean up the apartment. So Dolton had a lot to do to clean up their reputation, and as far as they were concerned, Divine was doing this wonderful thing in the community, which was to engage, you know, do more proactive, interactive activities with the kids and get them involved in caring about law
enforcement and and you know, being being good citizens. But there there was no there was no oversight. And the Explorers we are supposed to you know, coach and train and give everybody directives about the not not being you know, alone in rooms or or not being in cars alone. But Divine was he plotted and scheme he was able to get around that. Oh, don't worry about it. I just got to talk to this kid about this activity.
You know, we're doing a They did active shooter training through through his Explorer program, and it was his job to you know, rally all the kids and get them together. And they went around and you know, picked up the kids to bring them to this This is a crazy story which we'll have to maybe talk about in another show. There was a very lengthy and crazy story about them going to pick up all these kids and taking them to this obscure place to go. I understand at training,
but nobody was overseeing this particular drill. And these were what twelve thirteen, fourteen year old kids showing up in the middle of in the middle of nowhere or just on a you know, on some space to do active shooter training. And it was it seemed more like a hazing activity to keep the kids in line. So they were learning this valuable insight about how to protect yourselves from an active shooter. But they were growny, little kid in shirts being shot at with bean bag bullets and paintballs.
So after they had this exercise and the kids were brought home from this, they had they had welts all over their bodies and were you know, putting ice packs on their on their little arms, and the parents were just like trying to put together what happened, and they just I was a kid once. It was quite a long time ago, but I probably would have had a sense of bravado or obstinates about, well, yeah, you know, shit happens, we got rough, you know. But to me, it was it was more than that. It was a
it was a scare. It was a scare event. It was a way to let the kids know that, you know, we can do this to you, and we can drop you off and your parents aren't even going to ask why you're covered in wealth because you signed up for it and your parents signed off on the discoint. You know, do you call it the thing that says if anything happens to you, it's not Stolton P's fault. The waiver, Yes, the waiver.
Yeah, it's examples of waivers were.
You know, being overseen by Robert Divine. Like how scary is that?
I was just going to say that.
I mean, it's interesting to see all these things were played out by Robert Divine. He truly was the mastermind behind a lot of this, as well as we know the abuser to the Fogwell Brothers.
Yeah, I forgot about That's a whole other component to this.
What I was going to say is that I think, been someone who wore a uniform for twenty one years, I know that people can put a lot of value on that that may not be warranted just by virtue wearing one. So those guys, when you take a predator like Divine and you place him in that uniform with their their.
Hat with a little eyes pushed down and rolled up at the front and the whole nine yards that over over, overdone kind of a cocta hat that they wear. People are gonna even school administrators and we're like, oh, these kids are safe, man, they're safe. Look at this guy.
You know, he's all got you know, he might have his tactical vest on he's got his club, he's got his tasers, got his weapon, he's got a belt full of stuff on it is as safe.
As in his mother's arms. And they don't realize that that is exactly what this guy's counting on, is that you're not going to be looking at them. And by the way, we do have questions for you guys.
I just want to go off of that as well. Joe Gorman, you know, he's he's another stoat in the height and he was, you know, saying in the chat I could see that. It's sad to hear about Robert Divine. You've seen him throughout the community and respected him. And that's the thing about these these groomers. They're charming and that's that's. Yes, you think that they're great citizen, it's a whole charming. It's an act and that's how they ploy and scheme.
And the uniform, the parents in the it's a big, big discriminator. It's the carry potter cloak of invisibility, correct, because they thought, no, she's not in it. Not only is she, she's as safe as she could be. Or he in this case because he's loot. I don't know what rank was he then was he assistant chief yet or was he just he.
Was he was deputy chief, and he was deputy chief and he was given you know, as explorers, was given to him as as an assignment to sort of to beef it up and to make make the department look better. I'm gonna go ahead and speculate the divine wasn't right in the head back then, because I don't, you know, it's just how do they make these choices? Who knows? But nope, you know, grooming wouldn't be effective if everybody came out of the gate wearing a big pee for
Predator on their chest, you know. They it's the it's the hiding and playing sight and the and even well and to your point DJ about the about the uniform and all the bells and whistles. These guys added shock and awe to it. I mean when you talk about the firewells and I know one of your one of your mods talks about the military aspect of it. They were coming in and doing demonstrations with with you know,
explosives and and the dogs. And also you've got that aspect of it, and that's gonna be that's really exciting. I didn't have that ship in my life as a teenager. We would stand like on a hut playground somewhere and learn about you know, stranger danger and baking the sun and do next nothing. These kids are having explosive demonstrations and demonstrations with canines and an active shooter training. It was kind of exciting stuff.
Let's get all three of you to react to this one, Tricia Bion and.
This is from Perry and Sue. So once you start this attrition.
See willing to try and cover.
I can't believe so many coups are willing to try to cover. Yeah, why so what is your reaction to Why would those guys want to cover for someone who it appears doesn't deserve to wear the uniform? Why would they cover?
Well, I mean there could be several scenarios involvement.
No what from the troopers side, you're the investigating off sir, Let's say you weren't involved.
Ah, yes, so Fannings yeah or BUKACKI.
I think there's a bigger picture here of what's going on. I think this is something that Susanna and I agreed with very early on, that there's a systemic issue going on with child sex, trafficking and grooming of children. And I think it's happening on a bigger level where Mastate police are aware. Politically they are aware, Morrissey is aware, and that would give them investments. I think Sandra became a liability at one point, and a liability to many.
So there are some really I want to answer this on, you know, sort of a more general sense of the numerous reasons why cases like this don't actually make it to don't make it anywhere number one, or maybe not number one, but say there are four or five prongs of it, one of them being fear of retaliation. Farrewell's pretty I know people will be horribly offended when I say this, but a scary dude. He's a scary dude. He's a terrifying dude. I mean, both of them are.
I remember at some point, I don't remember who it was, but somebody said, you know, my money was on William Farrewell. I thought he was the more twisted of the two, and I thought, well, that's actually not good to think that. You know, we know what we know about Matthew Farrewell, and that somebody when somebody heard firewell, you know, may have may have done this to Sander birchmore the fact
that they thought it had to be the other one. Again, it goes back to the whole there's more than one monster here, and so fear of retaliation from somebody who's obviously violent, obviously doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything. The other facet of it is, these are the people that that you work with day to day in an effort to prosecute cases. He was a detective. Detectives need each other in order to get to get the job done, and they work hand in hand with the prosecutors. I'm
not saying in any ways, it's not a justification. It's just a complication that that there is, that there's this hunkering down of it's too inconvenient to know exactly what happened here, So let's just put that in a like I want to say, literally in a box and like lock it in someone's office until I guess, until the
FBI come for it. But there there was a lack of design to move forward because it would just uncover so much other shit and nobody's ready for it, and nobody wants even now, nobody really wants to know exactly how how much is under the cover up part Now that we've all done our online sleuthing thing, and we've seen what Matthew Farwell looks like walking in and out of that apartment building, and we know the details of how Sander was found and in the extent of the
relationships and it's not relationships, the abusive relationships that were going on the fact that we know all that, and there was at least six or seven other law enforcement professionals who saw all that too and had to say, yeah, no, boss, we're not going to move forward with this one, like are you are you shitting me? How not even a cursory look as to how the girl could have ended up in so much pain, in so much trouble that that was the only alternative. There wasn't even really a
full effort to look at that part of it. If she had died by suicide, which we know she didn't, why wouldn't there have been an effort to figure out how the heck that happened and what was going And then when they actually could see that there were multiple types of really serious abuse going on over a long time,
even then, they didn't move forward with apprehending anyone. I it does make you wonder what their motives were, because not everybody can be as bad as the Farewells and Divine and josh Heel and our fifth maybe will never be named military recruiter because these are these are all part of the case. They're all part of you know record.
If you will, I hope we do. You get to find out who all the scumbags are and bring them to justice, because if they're out there and they get away with it, it's not very likely safe to whatever community they're still working in.
Bah did Why did those troopers see fit to let a Stoton cop walk on this?
I think it comes back to they work too closely with the with the Norfolk County DA's office. These officers are you know, they take over, they work hand in hand with them. And then it comes back around to Jen's point. At all times, they can't investigate themselves. That's the issue you have when it when there is a crime against or an alleged crime that an officer has committed, they should not have other you know, closely working you know, investigators that they work closely.
With investigating them.
There needs to be an independent agency actually making a look at these things. So again, I think it comes back to they can't investigate themselves.
Well, let me let me rephrase it.
If you were going to put you in uniform, you're you're a mass day trooper now and you're embedded with this this office here, why would you want this guy to be in you to wear essentially, I know they don't wear the same uniform. Why would you want this
person to have a badge like you do? If you know he's a criminal imp and you believe that he murdered this girl, why would you want Why wouldn't you want to say, I want to extricate him, eliminate him from this brotherhood that we have because he's not one of us. So why would they not feel that way?
You would think the good cops would be angry, and I'm sure there.
Are many are, Yeah, but they didn't.
There's a fair factor here, I believe.
Of what what is Farwell going to come beat you up if you haven't arrested for murder, that means that what you're working, you know, I'll quote Brian from the LV Cops, there's none of these guys scare me.
Well, well, there's the the Enrique we saw what happened with Enrique, and I think that's a real life scenario that played out in real time for us to see.
What what what's happening.
Well, so so yeah, I'm just catching Boston Brandy's comment. Yes, yes, Boston Brandy, Yes, that is the case and allegedly and allegedly,
but not allegedly. So what I've heard from law enforcement professionals who who do care and do want to do the right thing and and are dedicated to being on task forces where they apprehend people such as Matthew Farrewell, is that they are They're not hiding behind being overwhelmed, but indicating that they are in fact overwhelmed, and that they are working it as constantly and as fiercely as they can. And by the way, if it had been twenty years ago, you wouldn't even we wouldn't even be
having these conversations. So the fact that you're seeing indictments and you're seeing apprehensions, and you're seeing some of these dominoes fall is a really positive result of an intensive amount of work. And I have to believe that that is hopeful that these dedicated multidisciplinary professionals who are in
fact trying to stop the bad guys. They live and breathe it and they want to, but they're up against a lot, you know, just in terms of the sheer magnitude of the task, which is I hate to bring up a another question on a panel where I'm answering questions, but why is there such a demand? Like why is there such why are there why is there such a market for this type of behavior that that any law enforcement professional is so passed with having to stop predators.
I mean it, it's unfathomable for me. And I'm not even doing I'm just trying to create awareness and trying to help create some healing. But they really do have the deck stacked against them.
Yeah, but that doesn't.
Wonder why why it's like that, you know, But this.
Case is not indicative of that, Suzanne, because they didn't have the deck stacked against them. They knew what happened. They hid text messages, and they facilitated the Basically the exculpation of the criminal is what they did. So it's not a resources issue. It's see, you like to me when you're part of something elite, I want only the elite around me. Now there's gonna be different levels of elite. Like with what I was when I was doing what I was doing in uniform, I wanted to be among
the elite and belong there. And there are certain standards these guys. It doesn't matter if you're a leader or not elite. You could be a criminal. But just because you went through the academy and you put the badge on in the uniform, I'm gonna protect you, even if you kill this girl. I mean, that's in that doesn't make sense.
I would want you.
In jail to say you're not one of us, Matt, Billy Robert, you don't belong with us because you're not a law enforcement officer.
You're a criminal.
Okay, but let's address that because I'm gonna I'm gonna say something really controversial and horrifying for most to that that it wasn't it wasn't, it wasn't isolated there there are others. We don't know how much the others, so we don't know. I mean if from at a glance, at a glance at looking at the indictment, you know, paperwork specifically for Farewell, it would would the world would be a better place if we could just isolate it
to him being the only monster. I'm sensing that the quick action to bury this and to you know, put it under the rug and to say nothing to see here with thirty two seven and nine text messages is motivated by the fact that it is much bigger and more vast than just those couple of random assholes.
Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'm just I only have them.
If we were to have an experimental group, like I could call the larger cadre of the control group, and this is the experimental group.
The experimental group failed.
I mean they they covered it up and they didn't want to be elite, and they facilitated them perhaps doing it again. You know, divine might be doing it again. For all we know is an attorney worried and pissed off, says lead investigator.
And most of the cops in Brian Welsh case are same as ones of wald Sandra Burchmore, Karen Reid. Constitutional rights violated constantly, et cetera. That is, folks, show we got about twenty minutes left, So I want to give you guys the floor to just illuminate for the audience anything that you want, because you know, a hell of a lot more than we do. And I'm sorry Kiyoka that you hurt your thumb and that typing is going to be a challenge and I don't know if you
can use this talk to text. But anyway, thank you for coming in. I oh, big, it's better. Please take it away and we can.
Take a few questions too. I can't see, I can't we have if there's anything that stands.
Out, yeah, let me know. These are the ones.
This one really gets to the FBI things is ken the FBI look deeper into SB phone record, sell location, text, and deduce what other males were around her during that conception time and follow the DNA test of of course, of those men. I mean I can answer that one for you. The answer is yes, they could. Uh, and maybe they do know who those men were.
We we don't know. They probably do know.
I'm certain that they calculate. I'm certain that they know a lot more than than we do. Coco. I am certain that they do not have divines DNA because I another unpopular opinion is a divine, you know, step forth to get his law degree so that he could devote his life to covering up his own scumbag behavior. And he is not going to answer affirmatively, to giving up DNA, to doing a lie detect or anything.
That can I speak to this one.
He's fighting, he's fighting for his own right to be a scumbag right now, can.
Speak to this one.
There is a methodology that they use to get these and it really involves placing an agent inside a restaurant. Bartenders can do it with a beer glass. They will switch out your beer glass when you go to the bathroom. Cigarette is one. If you're a smoker.
There are forks, spoons.
So basically they will use basically someone going to a restaurant. So I wouldn't say for sure that they don't have divines DNA. It was a question of how creative he was. And after a few drinks, guy goes to take a leak and they switch out his beer. There's lots of different ways that they can do this, but a lot of it revolves around eating, following them with when they go to Starbucks, you know, and they get a cup, and there's a lot of I'll just say there are
ways that they do this. Let's see, we talked about Timm's toilet, we talked about Boston Brandy. Yeah, if you have questions for Tricia and Susanne.
I DJ, I love that you brought up the the FBI agent in the in the the restaurant and the drink, you know, all that, because that's how allegedly Brian Albert was able to to take one of the suspects off of the Brians the what do you call it, the the Boston Strangler case through dumpster diving water bottles.
That's another thing that they in.
Fact to intertwine into this case that that, yeah, it was somebody's relatives I think poland spring bottle that actually allowed Brian Albert to break or or to debunk and to debunk brost Boston Strangler.
Case.
So that this is just bizarre, but Divine is somebody who first of all, he would have had to have been being looked at during this period, and I feel like he's probably spent a lot of his time making sure, like you said, being creative and moving in such a way it doesn't allow anybody. And he's a paranoid dude. I'm sure that he sure is. So that he didn't just leave, you know, glasses on the table for people to swoop away from him because he was doing shady shit. Long before Santa Brtimore.
Well, there's well, there's a lot of well, I'll say this like sort of like John Voight told Robert de Niro in that movie Heat.
He says, the police they can hit and miss, you can't miss once when they were knocking over those banks. So I would just tell you, over these three years, it's not impossible that they got his DNA either, as Kyoka pointed out, by going in his trash and getting things out of his trash, or even just being at a bar, even being in a restaurant, he can be as careful as he wants to be. They they they can hit and miss, but he can't miss once.
They only got to get one thing that has his saliva on it, and I suspect they probably have that.
I would suspect that.
Your lips to God's ears. DJ, Let's hope. Let's hope they do.
It's been done. I mean, this is a methodology. This is not something new that they do. It's it's you know, this is.
I do have a question, why do you think since he was arrested at the end of September that his hearing just keeps getting pushed off And now it's the new estate of August, Like, what do you think, Like my personal theory is that he must be in there, you know, possibly talking but making deals. Yes, but you know, do you have any thoughts of why he hasn't been you know, just keeps kicking the can down the road.
So I do, And and just it was it was August, not September. It's not a huge not a huge factor because it's still almost a full year in terms of the next court date being is it August fourth? So yes, I'm sure that he's got some some things to say. I think that he's not in a helpful way. I think that he's probably a really miserable, spiteful prick and would like to throw people under the bus. So that's fine,
go ahead and do that. If I remember, and I do remember Josh Levy saying, you can say whatever you want. It's not necessarily going to keep you out of, you know, out of the death penalty. But we'll listen, we'll hear you out. So I'm sure that he's got a lot to say. I'm sure that he is giving up voluminous details.
And unfortunately we know, even just from the internal investigation standpoint, that there are a lot of stories within the story, and I say that as delicately as possible, because none of what happened during the last few years of Sander Birchmore's life is in any way her fault or her shame to bear. And the details of there being other men besides Matthew Farewell and obviously the scumbags that are
part of the civil lawsuit, it's really dark. It's really dark, burdensome stuff, and some of it the powers that be probably don't want all of the information to come out, but they also need to use the voluminous information to prepare for his defense and to prepare for the prosecution. So the kicking the can down the road. It's very frustrating for all of us. But it's also because of the complexity of the case. They were in agreement on this delay because of well a couple of things, the DNA,
the death penalty attorney being added. So that's and I don't know how we didn't even get to touch upon that, but for there to be a lawyer put on the team that specializes in the death penalty is kind of big news as well. I'm sorry, no, no, no, that's
all So that so that is what added. The most recent delay is to bring the death penalty attorney up to speed, and the prosecution agreed to that because there's a lot they like DJ you were saying about how you know you you can you only have one chance at hitting this one. Well, the government only has one chance at hitting this one, and they're not They're not going to f it up hopefully, and the defense attorneys
definitely need to brace themselves for impact. And that's that's where a lot of the delays have come in.
Well, two things, So constitutionally, Matt Farwell has a right to a speedy trial. So they could not have done this without the concurrence of his defense team. So that you should know that.
Right away that the fact that we are laid is not the government in this case, it's Farewell. So that and his and his legal team, they're just happy to continue to like Suzanne was alluding to, to gather evidence to do whatever they need to do because it's his defense team. He has a right to a speedy trial constitutionally.
Now, your friend, someone who's a friend of both Suzanne, Tricia and BIA is named Dennis Sweeney, and he wants to know if the me has if this is from a state commonwealth standpoint, if it's still characterized as a suicide, yes or no, and then we'll move on yes.
And she has she has not budged. Yes, she has not budged.
And Brandy is Brandy's fired up tonight. Uh, you know typically, I know that. I know you guys are surprised. You guys are very surprised that Brandy's fired up.
I realized that this is kind of I would just grab ahold of your table. Yeah, a character, I know, Yeah, hello standing Stone seventeen seventy six. I heard the DA has not changed. That is correct, correct, But it would be the medical examiner. And her name was I put the entire name out there like four or five months, six months ago, Maria something she has like a oh Martina Mario del Cappo Martinez.
That there might be a fourth name in there, but it's it's I think it's del Coppo Martine.
I think you're right, Maria. Yeah, I even found it.
It ended up someone gave me her LinkedIn and I and I found her LinkedIn. But yeah, I think it's something like Maria del Cappo Martinez. You should be ashamed
of yourself Uh. And the reason you should, ma'am is because, uh, doctor Michael Boden, who's like about ninety years old at this point since the oj trial, still doing this type of work, came in and found the most fundamental of all things that could inculpate somebody that they've been that they're guilty of choking somebody and breaking the highway bone. And then doctor spock On behalf of the Department of Justice,
came in and said the same thing. So obviously you are really not bad at your job, but you let them talk you into this, and now you're going to have to be saddled with this for the rest of your life, which really sucks for you because you.
Played ball with him.
Don't let these guys come in and tell you how to characterize someone's death. You write it how you see it. And then if the heat is too much, you know, get out of the kitchen and go into private practice, is all I can tell you. If not, they could likely get his parent, her siblings DNA. That's another great point, Terry says, he just got a new public defender from Tennessee.
That's right, Terry, awesome. Dean College always got an applause. You guys are not applauding Dean College of Franklin, Massachusetts. It's been there since eighteen sixty five.
Come on, we love Terry, we love Terry.
We do love Terry and Dean College.
Okay, in college, but we specifically love Terry.
Terry, Okay, Terry and the Dean Bulldogs. All right.
The most disturbing thing for me is the culture in silence. How many were compliant? Were there any to try to alert others? They were ignored? So many questions, Do you guys have any information that would say that police officers were trying to sound the alarm bell against these guys? Are you aware of any good And I'm sure there are good Stoton officers, so let me just put that
out there for Stote PD. We're sure that there are really awesome, honest police officers at Stoton PD, But are you guys aware of any from that time frame?
So I have been actually spending a lot of time on this topic to try and figure out where the wounds are and and maybe how to how to stop the bleeding. There are definitely some officers coming out of the case the internal investigation who have ended up not okay in some way if you will, you don't, You're not necessarily going to see a shouted from the rooftops. How many people transferred, how many retired, if anyone died by suicideicides? Yeah, whether anybody has succumbed to the perils
of substance abuse and alcoholism subsequent to this investigation. There
there's a lot going on there. And I have actually tried to talk to a town official or two to say, you know, what, if anything, are you doing in terms of crisis management and a task force to you know, to actually make sure everybody's mentally well so that they can move forward into protecting and serving in their community in a way that that is not dictated by the demons of this case, because that's going to be a really hard thing to overcome, whether you did everything by
the book or not. And we know that some have not overcome it, that there have been losses, early retirements, substance abuse and alcoholism issues. It's just I'm not trying to denegrate the satin PD at all, but the wounds and the suffering is real. We want we want them to be healthy and okay to move forward, because there are plenty that just want to protect and serve absolutely.
Yeah, I know that there's a lot.
I really still have some problems if people have have left quite a few transfers and in definitely some untimely passings.
Still waiting for the boxing video they claimed to have. Yeah, that boxing video they creamed to have with Enrique that they showed his family was obviously for the dummies out there was the one that he did boxing training and didn't get killed. So just in case you're wondering, newsflash, so they're going to show you, uh, you know, we're still waiting for uh, you know, keller HER's ring camera video.
We're still waiting for an unedited sally Port video. That's probably where the video of of Garcia is probably in Fort Knox, Kentucky. In Kentucky, uh, in the securest vault they have like seventy five feet underground.
Well, let me while we're talking about video, while it's freshing my mind in reference to Santa Birchmore's case, is just looking over my notes again before coming on. And with regard to the video, you know the infamous video
with Matthew Farwell walking in and out. Wouldn't you know that there were a couple MSP and of course Colleen Crawford coming to gather this entryway video and go through it, and they were having problems finding the part with Matthew Farwell because because there was a thirteen minute timestamp issue with the security camera. And these are just these are just odd things that seemed to happen a lot out
of Norfolk County DA's office. This thirteen thirteen minutes of different like we weren't able to see this, this creepy asshole walking in and out being sketchy with his hoodie like Higgins and where someplace where there were multiple you know, cameras, there's thirteen minutes missing or we didn't know who that was. What do you mean you didn't you know, there's just why did they sit on this information? Why were there
thirteen minutes unaccounted for? It's just it's an anomaly that doesn't seem to plague every other law enforcement agency on the planet.
Yeah, uh, I mean well, I mean this, this happened this. There are other places where this has happened that these things and worse, but it's just been localized. They've had a light on themselves because they've had three cases in a row where someone was killed and they had tried to blame somebody else. And it's so it's and localized to one office.
It's like, you're not like the Dirty thirty in the Bronx or the seven to five in you know, in Brooklyn or something I mean.
Or the you know in Manhattan. Rather, this is like a little police department, you guys, and in the friggin DA's office in Canton. I mean, come on, man, you guys, I mean, you're you're you're saying look at me, look at me. Well we're looking at you. We're looking at you.
All right, it's about time to get out of here. So I want to get some final thoughts. We'll certainly have you guys on again because I realized that you guys have hours of material on Sandra. We haven't done anything on Sandra in a while. Now, Karen Reid is freedom. I know that both of you were you know, we're full blast on that. You know, Suzanne Entrist, we're both you know. So now we can focus on Sandra, we can focus on Turtle Boy and him trying to you know,
them trying to railroad in the same prosecutor. You know, what is this with these guys hiring, like they said, hiring special prosecutor Mark. I think Mark Betro said that what is it with his office hiring special prospcutters to prosecute these people? Why are you hiring Ken Mellow and Osgrove, you know, at hundreds of thousands of dollars when you have a young a group of what thirty young prosecutors or whatever the hell they have their why are they having to bring an outside help.
For Aidan Carney? You know why?
Well, with regard to these cases and the complexities that surround them, I'm going to say not specifically about Aidan, of course, but just about the co mingling of these cases.
There is.
Organized crime, sex, trafficking, besiege, awful, repugnant. DA's office that is that has a big, big fat toe in all of these cases, unlimited resources, which I guess not unlimited because they are literally coming out of all of our pockets on the screen except for you, DJ, because you're out of skate, but literally coming well, actually, you know there's federal.
Too, but right, half a million dollars, right.
But so that and there are obviously bad actors at we don't even know what the top is at the top of this heap of shit. There are obviously some bad actors with very very deep pockets.
I just that's why I don't want to answer Derek's question. Derek, I don't know that they are bringing in a special prosecutor if you're asking to prosecute far Well, I mean there are there are special prosecutors already, for there were
two Mellow and Cosgrove that are prosecuting Aiden. Cosgrove is a retired judge that they brought out a retirement and two hundred thousand dollars a year to prosecute Aiden h And in the case of Sandra, I mean, there's app absolutely no reason why you would bring in a special prosecutor when they have probably a cadre of extremely talented federal prosecutors that will eat him alive.
With the evidence that they have, and he knows that. So with that final thoughts, Tricia, thanks for having me, Thank you. We're finally coming on.
Yes, and we'll see you next time in Massachusetts when when I'm out there.
Awesome. Via, Absolutely, we'll do another meal.
Food.
We're going to do it again.
So many meals, so many meal.
Yeah, but hey, you know what ours is. You know, you just come and buy what you want to eat and buy the beer you want and there's no price.
Tell we always have fun.
Well, I just want to say thank you Trisha and Suzanne for coming on. I think we definitely, like somebody wrote in the chat, we need to keep the pressure on and we need to we can't be silent, so let's keep talking about it.
Thank you for coming on.
Trish, you did amazing.
But Stee, I told you this is just like a FaceTime, so thank you for coming on. Yeah, we're just hanging out, So thanks again, ladies. We'll be in touch, and yeah, let's keep spreading the word.
Thank you.
It was an honor to have you you guys on. And yeah, we're gonna have to save it for later. That's what Eddie Vedder is playing on the guitar right now.
But we do need to do more Sandra birch Moore work, especially as as things start to heat up.
And I'll like what Maria said here, we both did amazing true that, but yeah, we need to to do more work with Sandra birch Moore. That yeah, that she not be underrepresented. So whatever you guys can uncover and and help out this investigation. I'm sure we'll be appreciated, so on behalf of Tricia, Susanne and Bia. This is DJ saying peace out, one love and we will see you down the road.