Hey, welcome back to calling all beings call him Boston Deal. Hope you all are doing great tonight, So I have the honor and pleasure tonight. We have two great guests coming on, retired Sergeant Peter Murphy and retired attorney Val hell Law. So unfortunately DJ is feeling a little under the weather, so you have me for tonight as your host. So thank you all for joining and with the further ado. Let's see who's backstage? Hey, Hey, yes, I'll be like DJ.
Can we get in?
Aymen? Aymen?
Great to see you, Bia.
Good to see you too.
Val.
How are you so?
I think Val is on mute?
Okay, all right.
So there we go. Yes, all right, all right. I'm sorry to hear about DJ.
That sucks, I know, but that's all right. He sent me into a replacement. So how are you doing, Val?
I'm doing pretty good.
I'm looking at Peter and thinking he looks happier than I've seen him before.
Are you thinking about the win yesterday?
Oh? You nailed it? You you going on with that one? Val? And by the way, I'm very nice to talk to you, meet you and discuss things with you. I'm really looking forward to it. You can tell me a little more about your Massachusetts history, I guess at some point. But yeah, no, we are living the dream. After what happened last night. You probably know what the vote count was. We were thirty close to thirty three, one hundred to seventeen hundred.
It was a landslide and it was very, very positive, and I think the town today had a great day in general. I think they see the light at the end of tunnel for improvement in the quality of life for everybody.
That's right. So were you watching the val were you watching the results of the election?
Yes, well I got a bit of a frenzy because I was jumped around to all the different channels talking about it, and it was a little confusing because a lot of people were going off John Commo's stream, I think, and then of course Mike get the Young Turks. It was both very exciting and like such a relief, like
just oh my God, thank God. Like and I think my follow up question for Peter, which you sort of have already answered, is leading up to the election, did you have a sense that this is the way it would go?
Or was it like a nail blighter at the end.
Or well, I guess I could answer that with two responses. That one would be I did the standouts holding Susan Harrington signs for I think three out of the fall weeks or whatever it was that we did standouts on weekends, and we did them at three different locations or two and three different locations in the town. And I can tell you that we probably had a group of twelve to fifteen on any time that we did a standout, and the opponent, the incumbent, I'm not even going to
mention his name. His group was standing about twelve fifteen feet to our right or towards the north, and the people coming up to our left would see our signs first, obviously, and they would beep and wave and thumbs up and high five, and they were so animated, and it grew with every weekend that we were there, and I mean we just felt the momentum and I think the enthusiasm that the town had had enough enough is enough, as one of our signs that we hold out in front
of the police station twice a week, and I think enough is enough set it all and they were ready for change. They saw it, they saw the need for it, and they pushed the buttons. It was good. Yeah, it was really good. And we had, to Susan's credit, she had a masterful organization for campaign organization. And they had you know, I'm not going to say they had algorithms, but they had a lot of data and statistics and what the votes for Conley had been over the last
four decades. And they had a dialed there and they knew if we could get a big number of people to the polls, that we overpower him and take the wheel. Jesus, we did it, and that's amazing.
I saw that she had Rita had mentioned earlier that she had gone to over two thousand houses like door to door, and that's that's amazing she did.
She did door knocks, two thousand is right, that's a good number. I know. They did a phone bank, they did calls, they did postcards, you know, they did meet and greets, They went to different forms and venues. She just she did a great job. And I didn't actually know her before I got involved in this campaign. I certainly knew the other individual, and I was very very
impressed with her. I'm very very impressed with her. Her sincerity, her willingness to listen to people was incredible, and I think she's going to do a magnificent job my real leader.
Yeah, and I think she's definitely been paying attention.
I see her at the select board meetings well now that they're back in person, and she's always there, paying attention.
And ready to speak up.
So good for her, Great for the town of Canton, that's for sure. So, Val, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background?
M h.
I think.
I talked to DJ about this a little bit. I'm kind of paranoid about my anonymity. Oh, of course, you know, so I don't necessarily. I've just had some kind of unique experiences in my life, and I would be easily
recognizable with certain information. But I graduated from law school in the mid nineties, I beautiful, and early on I clerked for a couple of judges, which is where a lot of my interest in the cases that I watch now, and especially this case where you have this sort of very complicated ball of all sorts of.
Legal issues and.
Can you appeal them and you know, can the judge get away with X, Y and Z all these things like That's where it really comes from. And I'm just as brother counsel says, I'm just a law nerd So you know, the deeper the dive possible, the better.
So what type of law did you practice? Do you mind sharing that with us?
Well, it was more general practice. But I'm not litigation, Like, I haven't been in the courtroom, so in that sense, I'm like everyone else.
Who's a court watcher.
I may be a little more obsessed than some people, but mostly that's it.
Like the applying.
It's kind of funny because it's amazing how much that you learn in law school that stays in your head and then you're just sitting around and you hear someone say something on the stream. You're like, all of a sudden, you're like spurating out by wrote what the standard is. And if you're sitting around a bunch of lawyers, very often.
It's the news that's really funny.
So what made you take an interest in the Karen read like, how did you hear about it?
Like just on the news?
Like all of us here, yep, I in the beginning of my story. It's very it's like ninety nine percent of us. I heard about it on the news and I thought, oh my god, that's horrible, you know, and I did a little there, but for the grace of God moment, you know, And I didn't really pay attention until I think it was like the end of twenty twenty three when a friend of mine was telling me all about the caste and it just sounded insane because you know how hard it is to explain to a
new person. And even then I was kind of like, oh, oh ka, But it was a really a police conspiracy. I mean, that's what they all say, right, Like I think there's some saying like, oh, there are no guilty people in prison. They're all innocent, right according to them. And then after that I Melanie Little started covering it and we all know, you know, the progression of that, and then I started getting into the documentation and stuff,
and I was just thinking about this today. There was a to me, there was one thing that I started to see in the pre trial hearing documents and then in the hearings and the trial itself, is.
The prosecution.
Was engaged in a very particular kind of lying.
That for me is always.
Like a really really huge red flag in there's even I looked it up. There there's even a name for it. It's called paltering. And the definition of paltering is.
The art of lying by telling the truth.
So one of the clearest examples, which we hadn't seen yet in the trial is, you know, they did the DNA tests and then all of a sudden, the prosecution's running around saying, oh, John's DNA was on the tail light, it's definitive, blah blah blah blah blah. Well, yeah, that technically that is true, but you know, you, you the speaker, know that when you were saying that.
The person listening to you.
Is receiving that information was a totally different meaning. And you know that like you're doing that purposely, I mean, because you know it was touched DNA. So it really doesn't matter. You know, it's not even they're not even like arguing about facts. They're like they're trying to insert lies into the case.
And that's not the only time they did it.
You know, there's a all along they're kind of inserting these lies throughout the case. And like I said, I just find it really offensive, and it really is. It's a red flag, doesn't you know, it doesn't matter if it's a criminal case. It doesn't matter a criminal civil
big little a lot of publicity no publicity. If you are watching a case and one side, like when it comes time to show the evidence and you match it to what they've been telling you about it, and you see that it has that mismatch between technical truth and real truth, you know that side should lose, right, you know they don't have a case, and you know they are.
Verging on very unethical.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean. The thing is is that you don't really need a lot of a lot of people for you know, for corruption either.
You only need a few key players to you know, for this to have gone on and continue to be going on.
So, Peter, and how did you first hear about the case?
Wow?
I think probably like most people here in the in the Boston area, I saw it on the news. I saw pictures of the house, the snow, and it was probably on the It was either the twenty ninth or the thirtieth of January that I saw, you know, the initial broadcast that there had been a tragic death allegedly caused by a motor vehicle by the victim's girlfriend. And having been a cob for almost thirty three decades and wanting to be one all my life, I believed the
narrative that was being told by law enforcement. Why wouldn't I, you know, And I worked in the organizations in police department for all those years. I believed in the judicial system as being believable and authentic and trustworthy. And did I have some some questions over the years as far as when I saw cases unfold or I testified and you know, how things might have gone. But for the
most part, I believed in the system. And then all of a sudden, that was in January of twenty nine, almost February first of twenty twenty two, and then obviously in twenty three of April, things started to unravel. The onion got peeled back, autopsy pictures were becoming available. Turtle boy, you know, cracked open his case. I have a Boston police officer who lives very close to me, and I asked him about it. I said, what's going on at the water bubble right and what are you hearing? What
do you know what's being said? And he said, mum's the word. Nobody is saying a god damn thing about it.
Now.
This is a Boston police officer many many, many years, and he said, it's quiet crickets, And that raised some red flags right away, and I said that's all, isn't it. And he goes, well, I'll leave it to your discretion. But he said, do you know Turtle Boy? And I said, turtle Boy, what the hell is that a cartoon? He goes, no, he said, he told me what he is. He's a
professional journalist, blogger and all that. I said, oh okay, And I started watching that and I listened to that, and I mean it was basically it was a physical evidence. It was the arm, the picture of the arm, and I just couldn't ever go back to not thinking that she's innocent.
Right, So there's a question here for Mary was saying, what can you tell us about the missing plaque?
Who was that directed to to you?
Peter?
Oh? Okay, the missing the missing plaque? Do we know what that? I need more info on what the missing plaque is? I think, yeah, you know what what? That refers to?
No clue missing plaque? And because yeah, somebody else said I heard this too and would like to hear Peter thought and why Helena would do that? Yeah hmm all right, So Mary, if you can expand on that question, let us know what you're referring to.
Could that be the plaque. The only thing I can think of here is that inside the inside the foyer of the main entry room to the Kenton Police Station at fourteen ninety two Washington Street, there was a series of plaques on the wall and it had several police officers' names on them because they have since retired, and my name was on it. And evidently somebody who's been in there recently said that one of the plaques is missing, the one I guess that had my name on it.
So I think people are speculating that maybe something's going on specifically inherent to my my plaque on my name. That's the only thing I can attribute to what that questions for.
I'm sorry, Okay, yeah, it kind of sounds yeah, because Denn, it's the same plaque in the lobby was down down there adding a name, So hmm.
Interesting, that's usually why they would take it down with somebody else's retired and they had a plaque made a name tag made up and they were going to win start it. But that would be a guest, he asked.
So, okay, so that clears up that confusion, A right, sounds good.
Wait, so I'm confused. So there's multiple names on a plaque.
Yes, it's it's okay, all right. It's sort of like a plaque of honor val where there's a list of police officers that I guess they're they're indicating that the or the administration's indicating that they served admirably and left in good standing.
I see.
So presumably the plaque goes back up with the additional name.
But your name is still there.
It would be on the plaque that hopefully gets replaced up there, and I hope they didn't take my name down, but it's possible.
Well, I just thought that maybe with why people were asking, because I would be like, you know, those dirty dogs like killing.
Are you familiar with the the case part of my story that I was brought to court for tresassing on private property to which the church next door.
You can see the church in the back here if I move, you see that white that's a church immediately adjacent to the Canton Police station. They actually share a common driveway. And I was criminally charged back on December twenty seventh for trespassing on private property, but to it the church. The individual beside me was never charged. He was never even addressed by the two sergeants and the sign that was ten inches by ten inches black in collar, was under a big pile of snow and was not
visible to the human eye. Yet they still charged me. And they've charged a lot of other individuals over the course of time. If you're familiar with the case as far as just sort of how I say it, intimidation and harassment. The Canton nine Richie shiff of the duck Guy Whitey for assault and battery on a public servant, and then the Peter Murphy case trespassing on church property, and all the cases went suf.
Yeah, I would hope, so so yeah, so much for thirty six pages for rubber duckys and that went nowhere.
And the thing is is.
That they could have out just come out and asked you to move like they you didn't have They didn't have to have you sit there the whole time and then go home and then all of a sudden, now you're being notified that you were trespassing. Right, they should have addressed it while it was happening, or don't you think if it was truly a concern.
Well, I raised the question at the time to the sergeant who I actually have known for a long time, including his family, and I said, I'm not clear on where the elements of this trespassing charge you have been met in this instance. I said, I've never been put on notice by anybody. I've never been served anything in writing. And when we got to court, val will appreciate this, he said, get off the property. I'm not going to
discuss the case. I said, sure, sorry, I respect that you respect the uniform and the badge and I left immediately. I only there to exchange some signs with the gentleman beside me. We weren't going to use the property, but we had used the property so many times in the past for standouts, is recently in a big one in September fourteenth of that same year where there were seventy five of us and we all parked there and we
were welcome there. But getting back to the actual merits of the case and the elements of the crime veil which you probably would like to hear about. We were in the court magistrate hearing and the question came up, had I been put on notice? And that was raised by my attorney and the prosecutor for the police department said, yeah, he was put on notice back in September fourteenth, and it wasn't one of the seventy five people that were there that day that ever, Saigny police officers put anybody
on notice. They never even came out. So if I were to tell you that the magistrate couldn't produce that supplemental report as they called it, that put me on note, and I didn't have a copy in my discovery, and neither did the lawyer, and neither did the magistrate. It was kind of a how would I say it, unveiling of perhaps some untruth that were being told about me being put unnoticed.
So this goes back to a point that Andrew Burkhardt. I don't know if everyone's familiar with Andrea, but she often makes which is the process is the punishment? Right, They can't get at any of us, and hopefully never succeed in getting at Karen, So they use the process to hurt all these people at the very least inconvenience them.
Or like, if you're like Peter, you said you get to get a lawyer.
I mean that's ridiculous to hurt them anyway they can.
Correct, not only but to stifle and discourage you from saying anything or doing any of the standouts or holding a sign and to send a message to the rest of the people. And I can tell you I lived in the town for forty years now. I brought my children up in the town, and I have several people still living in the town, relatives and so forth, and I talked to them. It's recently Saturday, at that audit meeting at the Campton High School, and I want to tell you that fear in Canton is alive and well.
People are terrified and afraid of retaliation and a weaponization of the system against them in their family, in their businesses, in their children, and alienation in school settings. They are paranoid and hence they sit on their hands and they're afraid to come out and say anything. And that is a horrible way to spend your life, day in and day out, in the community.
Absolutely, and Val, did you watch any of the the audit result meeting. I'm haaty.
I heard a lot about it, and honestly, I didn't think I could. What I heard was that great disrespect was paid to Peter and I honestly I didn't think I could stand to watch that. Like I was kind of like, okay, I'm gonna be just as disgusted as if I had watched it, and I'm gonna hopefully send that out into the universe and join with all the other people's feelings and have the same effect as.
If I did watch it.
And maybe that was just kind of an excuse, But there are moments in this trial where I'm like, I just don't think I can view this, or maybe i'll view it later, do you know what I mean? When it's not quite like it didn't just happen. I'll go back and I'll I'll see. Like there's some people who testify that I have a hard time watching when they're live, like especially Jen mccabem well, actually now they think of it,
a lot of them. But I think I imagine, or I hope that the select board victory was some I don't want to say vengeance, because that's not really what we want to be about. But for Peter that that that was like, Okay, fine, you guys decided to be big fat jerks and this is what you get.
H Yeah, I know, where do you see this? Where do you see the town moving forward?
Peter? After this?
You know, now we have Susan Harrington as a new select board member. We have the audit results coming out. So where do you see the town? How do you see the town moving forward?
Well, I know, just in talking to people since last night's certificate. While it hasn't been officially, I guess they have ten days I think to do it. But since the official will count came in noticeably and substantially indicative that Susan won by you know, fifteen hundred votes whatever their final number was, but it was big, it was very big, and I think the direction of the town has sort of a It's u four. People are feeling like they have finally turned the tide a little bit.
Now they have two new select people and by just happenstance, both women, Trash Boyden and now Susan Harry Rington. The forty year repeat offender John Corney has gone his history. There's a couple of the other players, one being Chris Albert Mike Lochran who's a chairperson right now, and JR. McCourt, jus nephew by chance, was a Canton police officer and left abruptly after the Birchmore murder. Oh just went into
another line of work. Valve just left the department, which very speaks volumes as you and b A no. I mean for somebody to just suddenly bail on a career that most people have wanted all their lives, and his what would it be? His grandfather was a lieutenant mccannon police, and so he would have been almost like a second
generation officer. There's been I think the comment I got yesterday was thirteen police officers have fled, for one of a better word, either retiredransferred, or or or just just quit, even sometimes without necessarily tenure or retirement, going into other lines of work. I think that tells a story. And so to answer your question, I'm sorry I got to offer the track. I think it's a two pot story.
It's uh. One is we've now started to change the mindset of the select board, and I think there's there's a good opportunity, a huge opportunity there. It's a it's a new world of order in that community right now. There's going to be lots of changes. You know, in a five person board or whatever. If you think one person's going to make a difference, well it is, it's
going to be huge. And the person that is now not there anymore, you know, he coordinated the show for forty years, and I think things are going to get rapidly improved quickly. And the other thought is it's gonna it's going to migrate into the police department, the police chief. It's been there for a long long time. She was connected at the hip with John Conley and d Marcy.
All you have to do is look at a retirement party she had for Berkowitz, the former chief, and you look at the players who are there, and you know it's telling, very telling. So I think, what's going to happen. I mentioned it on a post earlier today that there has to be this deck in Velgan is aware of this,
probably in v Ares too. There's decades and decades that go into a police organization, a law enforcement organization which is paramilitary in its own nature by itself, decades and decades of mentorship, and when you come on, you field training officer takes you around, shows you the streets, and basically tells you how you are going to act as a police officer for the rest of your career, or
at least what the guidelines are. And I could speak to some issues about that, but let's just leave it that it takes decades to build a culture in a police department, it's going to change. To change that culture, you have to bring in someone from the outside. I believe that'll just like Governor Healy finally did after you know, eighteen to twenty months of putting up with the former acting colonel. She brought in this guy from New Jersey Noble,
and that speaks volumes. She brought in somebody from the outside she didn't filled from withinside, and that sends a message to the rank and file. Things aren't right, folks were changing. It's like changing a goalie when when you know things aren't going well on the ice, it sends a message and you know, you got to smell the coffee or you're going to be gone too.
Right.
Do you think she'll align with so Susan Harrington will align more and allow Trish.
Boyden to have more of a voice, Like if those two select women kind of.
Come together, because it kind of feels that Trish just kind of goes a lot along with everything and doesn't really question. I think at the beginning she used to question things, but now it's just like, you know, she agrees with everything that's going on. Do you think this will give her a voice that maybe she wasn't able to speak up before.
I certainly think it will. And in to Tricia's credit, I speak to Trisha quite often. I've worked with her on the campaign, and her hands are pretty well tied, or they were tied with the odds in the numbers that were against her. Now she's you know, now she's coming to the game with a plan that she and
Susan can work together on. And the strength and numbers we all know that, you know that name, and I think they can collectively very much have an impact on the community, and they're going to do it very quickly. And Tricia's she's voted no on many issues that were controversial. Into her credit, she stood up and said no or or went against the you know, the momentum of the others, and I do give a credit for that. I think she's trying to work within the survival mode that she's
had to put herself into. But I think now it's going to be she's on offense, and I think Susan and she are going to do a great job together and you're going to see immediate improvements.
Right, and then another chair is up next year.
Yeah, so there's hope there too, so hopefully the there's somebody in the works that wants to seat and yeah.
Yeah, can I can I ask a real dorky question, so thing I know, So if the if the vote is we assume is mostly three to two. Now in the other direction, like how how how does the chair get to be chair?
Like does the board vote or.
Does someone run specifically to be chair of the select Board?
If that's addressed to me, though, I would say I believe it's more of an attrition or a rotation type of thing. Somebody is a secretary, you know, somebody's the chairperson, somebody else is this and I think they kind of rotate through. I haven't really read the bylaws. I can't confirm to you rate this minute with full knowledge of who would be the next chairperson will say in the next election, I can't tell you how that's going to
rotate through. I know Mike Lochran currently is the chairperson, and I don't know how that would play out. But I'm sorry if that doesn't answer a question. But I can't. I don't have the knowledge of the receipts to tell you how it's gonna play out. For the next term.
I was looking on some of the public Canton pages and I couldn't track down how that.
What's the word I want?
Like the nomination or appointment of someone too begitear work, because I was.
Thinking that could be another benefit to the change in attitude of the board.
Sure, going really far into the future, and I don't want to count any chickens before they're hatched.
But in I think it's in twenty six morisses up. And do you think.
That the success that the people can't have been having recently will carry that far over into the future. I mean, do you think he'll leave run?
Is that for me?
A ber?
Do you want to jump on that? I could take a shot at it.
But beer, well, both of you.
Well, they had a fundraiser for him recently that we had a standout at and there was you know, significant players from Canton that showed up at that fundraiser in Quincy. For Marcy. He has run unopposed for a number of terms up until I'm hearing the two perspective candidates are gonna run against them. I believe one female and one male.
Don't hold me that if they still have kept their papers in But I think I think the whole county, I think the whole state is ready for change, and I think they're they're seeing basically how you know the birch More case was handled, how the Read case has been handled. There's been a couple Yeah, Enrique, my god, you know I I spoke at that at the at the vigil back in February at just Nut Hill. Where where I'm going to use a word he was assassinated
or executed. I mean, it's it's it's scary. It's scary. I really, there's no other way to put it. And I support law enforcement I have all my life and I still do. But god, damn it. I mean, you you you gotta have accountability and transparency, and it certainly is lacking in the Enrique case. And I'm sorry I was talking about I could confused Justin Root case. Then you talk about Enrique is another issue. I mean, it's
just it's just one cascades into the other. If you're familiar with the Justin Root case, are you, well?
Yes, Actually I briefly had the opportunity to uh talk to his sister.
Yeah.
Her first name just went right out of my head when she was fillowing her cer petition to the United States Supreme Court. So I got a little bit of a legal background that way. And the facts of that are I mean, okay, each case that we talk about, the facts are heartbreaking, but.
It's just heartbreaking. You know.
It's not very often that you're sitting around reading a legal brief and you're starting to tear up because it's such a horrific story.
But all like each of these cases, just the plane.
Usually boring facts that that that lawyers put in their communications, they're they're tragic in an overwhelming kind of way. Yeah, so I'm really hoping because Okay, so one of the things that lawyers do very often is they think of the best case scenario in the worst case scenario. And I'm gonna put out a worst case scenario, and not because I think it could happen, but just because you know, you want to game out all the moves. Let's say the worst happens and or not the worst The worst
is a conviction. But let's say there's another mistrial, which some people think is likely just because of all the forces raid against Karen, and we go through another trial, and it seems to me at that point one of the few things that can stop the repeat cycle of miss trials because I just don't see this prosecution or Morrisey ever stopping is getting Morrissey out of office so some normal moral person can get in there and make a different decision.
I agree, go ahead, be I'm sorry, No, I was going.
To say, and that's why you know his he's coming up next year as well, in twenty twenty six, right, his seat is up for so hopefully we have people that are out there wanting change and are willing to run for his seat. And hopefully that isn't Hank Brennan, by the way, hopefully not, because that's what a lot of people speculate. That's why he was brought on to try this case. But yeah, so Peter, you know, I
know you feel this question. A lot people are always asking, which I did see on here about Walmless and the tail.
Light, and have you brought this information to the defense?
Yeah, just maybe quickly summarize for perhaps people who are up to speen with that year if I may is well, of course, all right, So when you asked me a few minutes ago when I jumped into the case, and I said it was April of twenty three, I was actually up in the office of office of Brian Wanless, which is an auto body in Canton, Billion's auto body, and I was actually having a conversation with him face
to face in his building. He was a friend of mine for twenty ideas in the police department and as a neighbor, and we were friends, and we were also co workers, and I was a supervisor as a sergeant and knew his family well. So the point of my story is I had said to him in a couple of other offices on a boat that first or second week in April, I said, hey, amen, you know we worked together for years. We got in and out of some dangerous situations together. I don't want to see you
get jammed up in this case. I said, if there's anything that's you need to talk to me about off the record, you know I'm retired. Obviously I'm not a supervisor, but I'd be glad to help you with her, make some advice, give you some advice, and even help you get through it. I said, what you don't want to do is get caught from behind by another agency to wit the blue jackets with the yellow lettering that says FBI. I said, if you've got some connection, I'm not saying
it's nefarious to this case. You want to get out in front of it. You don't want them to come from behind. And that's when he said to me face to face, Hey, Merph, don't worry about me. And the only thing I did was take the tail light out of the lexus. And I said, what I almost got weak need right. The only thing you did was take the tail light out of the lexus, which is the murder weapon. That's the smoking gun, right.
That is the thing, that is the thing. It's the whole thing.
It's the whole angeloe. So I said to him, Brian, that is huge. What do you mean that's all you did? I said, that is that's the whole mcgilla ry. He said, ah, I don't worry about it. They asked me to take it out, and I said, Brian, did you do a chain of custody report? Did you do a supplemental report like on such and such a day to attorney val from Officer Wanless. I was asked to remove the tail light because my skill set from being in the auto body business, and they couldn't do it. And then I
said what did it look like? And who told you to do it? And he clammed up. He said, no, I can't tell you. And here we are twenty years, twenty five years with best friends, and now all of a sudden he's gone into gag mode. And I said, Brian, we got a problem. You and I got a problem right now. I said, I'm really really concerned that there's something going on in this case. If you can't tell me who told you to do it and if you did reports, And his comment was, I don't know what
they did. I didn't do anything. So tell tale speaks volumes, so that that's the story in the tail light, and that's how it got brought out. And to my knowledge today, val and Be his name, to my knowledge, hasn't appeared in any reports anywhere in the state police or the Canton Police that he was brought in to remove that tail light, when he did, at what time he did it, who witnessed it. There are some, I understand, some video captions of him being at the scene and taking it
out and putting on a pair of gloves. Eventually again.
Concerning well, but I think didn't his name turn up on the prosecution's witness list it did?
It did this time, but not the first trial.
Right right? Yeah, no one knew who he was the first time. But yeah, so I'm still kind of puzzled trying to puzzle that.
Out, aren't we? All? Yeah? I mean the whole case starts with a tail light. It starts with none being found in the snow, with a couple of inches of snow in a leaf blower, and it proliferates into forty seven pieces within a couple of days. How could you not have brought the story of that tail light into the case on the first trial?
Fell well, and didn't.
One of the early I think it was a Canton police officer who testified, said that he watched them take the tail light out. I can't remember who it was, but it was like the first week or two, and it's like it and then it disappeared like no one ever mentioned it again, which to me, would provide corroboration for what Brian Wanless was saying.
M Yeah, I honestly just to comment on that, I honestly, and I might be suffering from data overload on this case and the other cases that I've been involved with, but I do not recall any officer ever testifying or even me hearing that anyone else witnessed him do it, And in fact I asked him who directed him to do it, and he took the fifth So I cannot corroborate with you on that. And I'm not saying that that didn't happen or that information isn't in testimony somewhere.
Abl please believe me when I tell you, I just can only say I haven't heard that.
Well, you know what, I can assign myself ask of taking that up because we were all on data overload, you think, you know? Like, yes, sometimes sometimes I start to think that things various players have said or thought are like my own thoughts.
Do you know what I mean?
Because that would be really interesting, Yes, because it is very curious for them to call uh Ononless to the stand.
And I think, now what you're remembering is the person who did the forensics. I think alluded to the fact that they had that somebody else removed the tail light, and I just think his name wasn't mentioned because I think that it was a woman on the stand. I totally forgot her name, but she was testifying and she was the one that also stated there was no DNA
of John's underneath the vehicle. So I believe it was a forensic lady who was given that testimony, and she just said somebody had taken out the tail light, that she didn't do it herself. Was the line of questioning, Does that sound familiar to you?
Yes? That is sounding familiar.
So I think so there's a clue and hopefully we can follow I can follow it back to see if I am imagining this.
Sure, Just to comment again, if you add more to to the story, valgo with it. Otherwise I'll just make one other comment about the tail light. No, okay, So, since that conversation I had with Officer Wanless, and he was still in the job at the time, he since retired. He's one thirteen that has since retired. I think the numbers thirteen were up to thirteen since the Birchmore case, which is, you know, in a very short period of time and cost to town a huge amount of money.
But there is a story that somebody has told me that may may show up in evidence at some point as a witness, that he made a comment to somebody that whatever Karen backed into in that lexus was heavy and bode the tail light inside, cracking it and putting a piece of the tail light into the assembly of the whole entire lens, a piece, not forty six other
pieces fell. And if reasonable people can conclude that what he was speaking to was not a human body that weighed two hundred and twenty pounds, and that his arm was not bitten by man eating taillight animal, then we can we can come to the perhaps conclusion that the fracture in the light lens that he spoke of happened when she bumped into John's traverse backing out of her garage, and we saw the wheel cavitate rotate just that small degree.
And nobody's testified that were broken pieces in his driveway. Yet forty six pieces or forty seven pieces showed up in the street over the course of four days, but were never found by the thirteen or the Canton police. Keska seig.
Yeah, that's that's insane.
And some of it was supposedly found where his body was, and they were able to recover every single piece. And you know, as you would imagine the plow drivers, I mean, that tail light wouldn't have shattered and then spread all over the lawn. It would have just come down on the ground, and the plows going behind it one after another would have at some point moved that tail light to probably three houses down.
Like how was it all in the lawn where John's bar he was found?
Doesn't even make sense if you even believe that crazy theory.
Right, right?
What say you val well, thinking that, uh, what you're what your other person had said to you lines exactly up with all the evidence that the defense has put forward, right, you can believe that, and right now it's just hearsay, right, and and only you know who the person is, so we don't know any The rest of us don't know any like level of credibility or trustworthiness for all those things.
Right, But you can slot it in.
To all the other testimony the defense is brought forth to offer to Barrios, too, even to carry Roberts when she said she saw I can't remember exactly her words, but she saw peace sticking out.
She never said any thing about the whole thing was like smashed.
Pieces, right, And it makes sense that I mean, I am no engineer and I'm no physics expert, but.
It makes it looks like a likely result of.
What we see on the film at John's house, whereas their version of events, which has changed like every five seconds, only brings up more.
Like questions like a reasonable yes exactly.
Not distractors reasonable doubts.
If so, Peter, I'm sure you have.
We heard many times about the information that Scanlon brought to the defense team, and I kind of put this a little bit in the same category as the treatment.
Of of of of one less in the first trial.
You know, then call him, how much do you think that that account of what happened inside fair View.
Is probably true?
That uh, that Scanlon allegedly gave to Yunetti's office and then backed out of an affidavit, Is that what you're referring to him. Yeah, Yeah, I have no reason to believe that whatever he passed on to the defense was anything short of, you know, firsthand of the maya and indoor or truth. I have no reason to doubt his his authenticity.
I guess I do have a comment on that because the recent the ID Channel, when they asked David Yannette about this, he said that he received a phone call from this person named Mike and that basically he didn't have firsthand knowledge that he just told them that he knew Ba and knew how dangerous he was, and that
just kind of put them on a path. David Yanetti did not admit that he gave him any kind of information because he himself wasn't in that house, so any information he had would be secondhand knowledge, would it not?
He just knew him because they used to box together.
Well, I think, yeah. So cirl Boy's point, which is made many times, is that the details that Scalon gave to Yanetti included information that was consistent with the uh uh medical examiners the injuries.
Yeah, even though the.
Report wasn't out yet, And and presumably the only way you could know is if whatever Scalon was told was essentially true. And the reason I was I was bringing it up is because the same way what Wanless told you and then the other unnamed person told you about the tail light, Yeah, there has been no evidence inconsistent with those accounts.
And and you know until uh, what's Wanless's first name?
Is it?
Brian?
Yes? Now the Bryant until.
Brian want Wantless, you know, testify some court it is here say and the Scanalt account could be double or triple here, I could even be quadruple here, say which you know, not just judge Canoni, but no judge would countenance letting in.
But there there there aren't.
There's just no contradictory evidence that's solid, right, like that's forensic or like material physical evidence that contradicts that. And that's kind of where I keep coming back to. And it's very frustrating if those accounts don't get into court. Like I don't just agree with why they're not getting into court, because you can't just have people running around telling tales and you know whatever, right.
But but it's kind of like it was. The case was solved that first week. Are you on mute b oh?
Yes, I was, thank you for noticing. So, Peter, I have a question here.
It says was O j O's car taken for repairs by pack?
Uh?
P O k Slash o j Oh's dad.
Was the first part of the question again, was so was John's.
Car taken for repairs?
Uh?
That question has been raised by many people over the course of time. And I have no receipts for what where that cop went anytime after the morning that we saw Karen's com make contact with it. I have no receipts. I hope somebody does.
So thank you for the two dollars I got. I got to know, but unfortunately we don't know. I do have a question for you here, Why for Peter, Why aren't more cops and or retired cops coming forward like you?
Where are they?
That's that's a thousand dollars question too. I don't I don't know. I mean, I could see why. I Unfortunately I am only too familiar with the culture within a police organization and the fear and intimidation tactic tactics. Offices probably have been pretty much made clear to them that if they speak out about this case, their career is going to be over on paper. If not, it's actually over.
So I can kind of I sympathize with the pressure they have on them, But for anybody retired, what are they going to you know, what are they going to do to me?
Oh?
I guess I know what they're gonna do. They've said they get there's a target on my back. Don't don't come to Canton for any police funerals because there's a target on your back. Pay that's been told to me by sworn offices that were still on duty and active at the time. Val So I neglected to go to a couple offices funerals because of that reason. And lo and behold, there is a target on my back because they took me to court pretty much under false pretenses. So am I going to stop?
No?
When the going gets tough, the tough get going, and I ain't got no quit. So they're going to see a lot more of me over the next couple of months during this trial. And I can assure you that.
Yep, that's yeah.
I mean the strength and numbers too, you know where you're out there doing peaceful protests, speaking up, and yeah, we ain't got no.
Quit, no.
And I have an instances we were police organizations. Police departments have taken a voter no confidence against their chief because it gets to a point where morale is so low. They've had twelve or thirteen police officers vacate the department for various other either law enforcement jobs or just got out pulled early retirement or or retirement unexpectedly, well in advance of when they had told people they were going to go out. So you know, I don't know, a
union does have some power. They could take a vote of no confidence. That doesn't mean the chief it's going to be terminated. But it's volumes as far as where the rank and file within a police organization are at, as far as their mindset and want to change in the culture. Right, would we ever see that in Canton?
I don't know. I know there's some good offices. There's still good officers that are still working there that we're under my command when I work there, And I have no reason to believe that they are going to bed every night with extreme headaches and lack of sleep in the morning when they wake up because of what they probably know about this case.
Right, all right, I know we're coming up on an hour here, and I just wanted to know if you had any final words, statements, comments, emotional outbreaks that you'd like to share with the rest of us.
Can I think.
Here about one more?
Of course you're saying, I don't know, Peter, if you had heard, uh Bia, this is the thing that we talked about on the phone with DJ, this mysteriously manifesting police like at the end of Karen's driveway in the morning.
Have you heard about that at all, Peter.
I've just heard that in the last week or so because it's been sort of chatted about for one of a better word on some podcasters, blogs and content writers. It's it's only come to my attention now in the last I don't know a week or ten days about hearing anything about perhaps a police cruiser behind her car
at five in the morning. That's all I can tell you is it's kind of new and fresh information that I haven't been able to verify, and it's only come to me in the last ten days, which I probably heard on the media common media posts.
Anyway, have you have you seen it? Did you get a chance to see it at all?
No, I have not. Have you did you see it? It doesn't look like a police cruiser with bullets.
It really does, Okay, But I think I saw it on It was video Jesus talking on I think John Cammo's show, all right, And in order to see it, she did have to slow the video down, and she explained a lot about some stuff that I honestly didn't understand about the cameras and you know what, the there's kind of the strobing effect from the lights and all that.
But it really really looks like you see Karen reach into the driveway, you see her turn left out of the driveway, you see headlights come on behind her, like I think they said eight or ten seconds behind her. Then you see red and blue lights alternating right, you know, at the height of the top of a vehicle, and then you see that vehicle pull out behind her, and at some point when it's pulling out, then the lights shut off, but you can kind of still see the.
Headlights, you know, like following her. And I know, you know, like b are We.
Talk with DJ and it seems like this is highly unlikely to be evidence that would actually get into trial because they don't have.
Really way to authenticate it in any evidence that.
Logs anything like that, or well, well, we're probably never even created if it is really a can't police cruiser, or if they were created, they're gone now, you know. They would be beyond foolish to keep anything like that around at this point.
But I was shocked and fascinated and it was a.
The other moment in the first trial, during one of the pre trial hearings, the moment was when Yannetti dropped that Higgins had done a proffer with the Feds. In this moment, this like, I mean, because no, there's there's no other reason.
I'm sorry, it's not a coincidence.
Some police cars just hanging around in the middle of the night outside of John O'Keefe's house and just happens to follow Karen down the road.
I mean, it's ridiculous. Those two moments are like, oh my god.
But it's all information that they probably can't get into court.
But it made my jaw drop.
I mean, I saw the same thing, and I think, really, all that's going to prove is that the fix had been in before they found his body. But at the end of the day, Arca said John didn't die by that car, So whatever, you know, a story happened with that, I feel like only brings it to the fact that the fix had been in. Maybe they were watching her, but it still doesn't change the fact that Karen didn't hit John and John didn't die because of her car.
So yes, And I think I think the reason why the defense team and I feel like all of us kind of in the first trial, we're riding so high by the time the defense completed their case is we were all like, okay, Arca just blew the entire prosecution out of the order, out of the sorry, out of the water. And then obviously it was such a disappointment when the jury came back with the results that they did.
And I am I still feel that for all of our analysis about you know, what went wrong with the jury and what can they change and and and I think there's you know, tremendous potential for them two remake the case. Maybe remake is maybe not the right word. I don't mean like a total overhaul, but reposition the case. But I am still bothered because I feel like there's something about what the jury did that isn't quite explained. Okay, yeah, anyway, Yeah, sorry, I don't I don't mean to prolong the No.
No, that's fine.
So Peter, do you have any final words for us today, or emotional outbursts whatever you'd like, take your pick.
If you've seen the A couple of things, if you've seen the the video of the auditorium on Saturday, and what I was the direction I started to head in. I had some very very plenty of questions that I was going to ask, but as you saw, I was kind of shot down for one of a better word, and and people turned their back and I didn't get
a chance to ask follow up questions. Uh, but I guess what I'd like to do is perhaps consider a GoFundMe for having maybe a Coppenter build me a soapbox over the next couple of months.
Deloxe Deluxe soapbox.
You know, something with the American flag or the scales of justice on it fell and.
Exactly whatever whatever we can come up with.
But no about the case in seriousness. I mean, we're talking about a brother officer that has been murdered and there is nothing humorous about that going forward in this next trial. What I think needs to come out in my opinion, and I was surprised more wasn't made of it. And see what you to think is I believe, if my memory serves me right, is that there were three leaders of blood that were allegedly discussed by the autopsy doctor that his body was missing. He had three liters
of blood and we know I had wound. Usually will believe profusely the ground was frozen that morning. They've said it was what caused the fracture to his head. To my opinion, he would have to have been dropped from a crane at defeat and land raid on his head to do any damage at all, not get hit by and deflect off and skid along the snow. But you know,
we don't have any photos. We have nothing of him being spun around or skidding across the surface of the lun no pool of blood of three leads at all. But he's one of the biggest things that hasn't come out either, is in the investigation and why I believe that the Canton police and the police chief and the command staff should have been put on administrative leave soon after the accident or murder. I guess one of a better word, and that is a police officer should have
gone in that ambulance. That ambulance was a continuation of the prime scene. The crime scene got split up between thirty four to five of you and the ambulance. Right that body contained in his clothing and everything was laden with evidence. It could be dog salvrary, it could be other DNA from other combatants. He could have had a bullet hole. He could have had a knife sticking out of his back, you know, and I know, and we saw it in the videos that they and I was
an EMT for most of my career. The first thing you'd do is you cut with scissors and remove clothing and expose the body to find out trauma and wounds, fractures, bleeding. There were no wounds consistent with being hit by a car from his chin down to his feet, but there was a lot of evidence on his right arm that
he'd been bitten by a dog. Now, had a police officer been in that ambulance when they cut that sleeve open, they could have communicated right back to dispatch or back to the crime scene incident commander, which they never established. We can talk about that all night long, but they should have communicated back. Hey, you know, we're almost to
the hospital. This guy's got what appears to be lacerations and puncture wounds from a canine, and there is a canine at their house, or if you want to play dumb, we didn't know there was a canine. Knock on the door and ask him if they've got a dog, and see if you get a dog barking. You know, you tell me was it intentional that nobody went in that ambulance and they didn't, And then you see the evidence piled up in a pile next to the gurney, and who knows how long that had been there. That was
later in the day when Practo was there. I mean it just it was on the floor. Yeah. But the point I'm making is, had the information been observed by an officer going in that crime scene, maybe his body core temperature would have been raised to a point where he might have quickly or suddenly or briefly regained consciousness and said made a dying declaration. Yeah, you know, terrible, terrible absence of police protocol.
Yep.
And how about you, Val, do you have any final words for us?
I'm still a little bit thinking about what Peter was saying. I think that the praise weaponized incompetence is kind of what what covers most.
Of the case.
And I would almost add I think it's kind of a separate category of like weaponized inadequacy, because it's not just the evidence that was actively disappeared or actively messed around with. It's all the evidence that they failed to get.
Right like you.
To me, it seems to me that a police officer's job, if they're doing an investigation, that what leads you follow through to the end is kind of the biggest discretionary piece, Right, You need the most judgment to decide, oh is this a red herring or is you know this something to pursue do we wanna.
I can't think of a good example right now, but.
Uh, like like the whole thing about uh go for the geolocation data, and I mean, we know that was messed up, but failing to go after data that you knew would be available, it's a fuzzy, fuzzier category than the the other kinds of messing with evidence, but it.
It's just as like pernicious.
And it's also I don't know if either of you've been following it all the Delphi case in Indiana, that same thing happened there. That was also very bad police investigation, like whatever you think of like the results of that case, and I think it was horrible.
But the very obvious things.
They just didn't do, like and they were very critical things like determinative like.
You'd have the answer, you'd know right anyway.
Yeah, so I don't have I usually do have a pretty good rant ready, but you know, I didn't know you'd be asking, so I hav a cued one up.
All right, that's all right. So I want to thank you both for taking.
The time to come on calling all beings, and thank you for not backing out just because DJ was six. So thank you for a great conversation and for all you guys had you know, your thoughts, opinions, and yes, so thank you so much for being on. So I'll let you guys go and I'll just close out the show here.
Thank you so much.
Did a great you did a great job. Bell, very nice talking with you discussing this. Okay, stay well, all right, all right, have a great night. Bye bye,