Hello and welcome. I'm Deb, host of Deb's Data Dojo and researcher for Calling All Beings. Deb's Data Dojo is part of the Calling All Beings podcast network. Today I get to speak to Chris also known as at Ghost Archetype or the Beautiful Underground. He's going to talk to me about his interests in the paranormal. Chris is a license in practicing trans personal mental health therapist, a US Air Force BET, and he has an interest in fortunan war,
psychic phenomena and the occult. Welcome Chris, Thank you, Deb. Okay, So can let's start with interpreting or understanding some of those terms. I would really like to understand what trans personal mental health therapist means. So, the idea behind trans personal is to include say, the spiritual dimension in to
therapy. It isn't what it isn't virtual therapy, but clients and all the service we UH surveys we take and the research so is that they want to talk about these anomalousts, sometimes numinous, sometimes disturbing experiences with their therapists. But therapists are trained to deny basically those the existence of anomal anomalist phenomena. So trans personal therapists take that step to include that in our practice and the
way we view the client as an important part of the psychic reality. So when you I guess one of the Kevin Arno does his name, but he's a psychologist, and he released a paper in two thousand and seven talking about
the idea of instead of psychosis, maybe we're looking at spiritual emergencies. And he's making the claim that in our diagnoses the d s M five, we should be able to differentiate our diagnoses for people who are you know, whether you call it ontological shock or as Kevin Arnold's term, spiritual emergency, they both point to a reality of a lot of people around the globe that needs to be recognized and integrated into treatment. So transpersonal tries to accommodate that which
regular therapy would consider pathological. Now, is that something that one trains to be a part of or is that just something that one can can offer in
addition to normal licensure and services. And I think it may be the same with other fields, but there's especially in psychology therapy, somebody comes up with a therapy and then it's trademark, it's copyright and then there's an institute, so calling yourself certain therapy Like for me, I'm I grew up on young, you know young it was my is my you know, considered my hero.
But it's not so it's hard to say I'm this type of therapist because somebody will say, well, you can't say you're young in because you didn't do this, that and the other thing, and you're not licensed here and that. So trans personal is probably the most generic I can get without offending institutions who have trademark and copyrighted their theories. Okay, yeah, I just I was curious because psychology is my background as well. Also, I was
just wondering if this is something something sign Orfinely definitely tell self taught. I mean, even when I went to grad school, I wanted to you know, they you're allowed to practice different modalities, and I wanted to have a you know, a depth psychology and archetypal type approach that would allow for dream work. And you know, they just didn't offer it. They accommodated it
because that's what I wanted to do. And but I mostly you know, in grad school, I took the courses that you know they had but I, you know, did a lot of taught myself, and you know what the colleagues outside of my graduate cohort to get what we're you're not being taught in school. It's not aligned to the insurance industry model. And the training now is almost restricted by well, this is what you need to do to
get reimbursed. It's not we're we're not doing the type of research and brought in the scope of our practice like we should and have you know as early as fifty years ago. Yes, Unfortunately, other than you coming forward and talking about this, the only other group that I am aware of is Opus op Us you work, and I don't know if you have connected with them and offered assistance or anything like that. But I haven't heard of a lot
of other training for people that reaches out to these areas now. And there was an attempt to get this information into the APA. I think it was John Mack who submitted something to the APA is to say, hey, we need to we need to talk about this. And even again, when you look at the research, the you know, the therapists are saying we need training in this, and it's just not coming out. It's there is a huge stigma, and we talk about the pilots and you a fos the stingmo
of them coming forward. Therapists of all stripes, if they practiced for any length of time, will experience clients anomenous experiences or have them themselves, but you don't talk about it. Right. In fact, that was recently mentioned in the Liberation Times article I have the name here why the defense repercussions found by all saff are profound? They mentioned the psychology aspect, and one thing that was brought up was that, unfortunately, most therapists are not prepared to
accept the realities of the phenomenon. That's right, Yeah, it's even when I talked my colleagues, you know, I'm only on here as Chris, I'm not sure yet, because not only is there a lack of information on how to integrate this into our practice, there's a lack of information of Okay, how do I set up a practice that you know, caters the wrong word, but specializes as in this type of thing without your colleagues being like, oh, that's the you know, that's the therapist that deals with all
the people who think they're abducted by aliens or have ghosts in her house. You know, there is a need to bring this to a level of seriousness that at least my colleagues will be like, oh good, if something comes up, can I you know, ask if you know, consult with it and stuff like that. But that doesn't happen because we don't talk about it. Right. It's unfortunate. It's almost like stigma about trying to stop stigma.
It's you know, it just built on itself. And you know, I want to go back to what you said about the John mac attempt to get the APA on board. It's not well known, but Bigelow and an anonymous donor work together to do a public poll with experiencers. They created a pamphlet and they sent the pamphlet all around the country to members of the APA, and they offered also to do a conference to educate them on the issue. Unfortunately, it seems that nothing came of that. I have never heard
of it until I found the pamphlet. I didn't even know it was for the APA. It they buried it, right, It's definitely not something that gets touched don when you're in psych one oh one or you know, in any classes. It's unfortunate, and you know, it's very difficult to provide
adequate treatment if we're not aware of what we need to be doing. So yeah, and just to piggyback on that real quick, there is a new book that came out I just remember it came out in twenty nineteen by doctor Paul Leslie, and it's called Shadows in the Session and he is the first, I believe psychologists, you know, since the days of young who came out and said, all right, I'm having these experiences with my clients in session, and I wonder what other of my colleagues around the world have the
same thing. So he collected this all the stories of these psychologists in this book and certain professions I guess as just you're going to encounter this type of thing, and you know, the ones who aren't trained or it's gonna be like it's weird or it needs to be medicated away. So Shadows in the Session is a good book that kind of deals with the fact that, yes, us therapists are are experiencing these things. And every one of those psychologists
in there was anonymous. They didn't want to put their name out there, right, And I did want to mention for listeners that therapy is supposed to be treating symptoms, not causes, so that is ideally how that works. But when you go to a therapist, they are supposed to be taking care of the depression, the anxiety, helping you work through that. They are
not supposed to be judging you based on the causes. Unfortunately, when that is happening, that's because they're not well trained, and that's kind of what we're talking about. They need more training. Yeah, And one of the first things they teach you in school is you are a therapist. You are a counselor. You are not an investigator. You are not an interrogator. It's not your job to find out if what they're saying is true. That's
not your role. What you, as a therapist should be doing is taking whatever is happening in her life and hopefully finding helping them find meaning in it. And even if it is a fantasy that they've made up for whatever reason, they're still meaning in the fantasy. They're still meaning in the lie. And we're not investigators, and sessions aren't interrogations, and we should remember that.
I think, unfortunately, in the history of the phenomenon, which I like to use more often now than just UAPs, because I understand there's quite a bit more going on than objects. I feel like in the history,
psychology has been used almost like a weapon. First, it was used to silence the public by talking about, you know, mass hysteria and fears of mass hysteria, which you know, people wholly misunderstand because there's not really such a thing as mass hysteria, like in a global scale, even if it even if that did happen, it would be temporary, as it has been
in every case. Also, and then there are true incidents that happen that get lumped in with that with no explanation about why that would even make sense. That's and for instance, the aerial school incident was listed as an example of mass hysteria without any explanation as to why it was put there. Yeah, like because none at all, not even claiming there was any psychological disturbance at all. But yeah, I mean, the only characteristic that it would
have with mass hysteria is that they were tight knit. I mean, they were they were classmates. Other than that, you know, because you know, with massesteria in the cases where it can occur, it's a tight knit group and there's intent behind it there, it's not it just doesn't manifest randomly. It's not a causal. It originates from somewhere, and it's uses the weapon and it's used as a whapon. And this is this is my shadow
that comes out sometimes. I thoroughly dislike when people will say they're hallucinating or that's just delusional and and these are just you know, people online. But it's man that that for me is I have to I have to step away every now because they have no right to say somebody's perspective is a delusion or yeah. I think we could go into a whole nother conversation about how little
we understand and actuality about our own perspective. But I wanted to touch on another way that psychology has been used as a weapon unfortunately, and that has to do with the military. It seems that often in the past, when people tried to approach their senior officers regarding UAP incidents, they were told that they would have to go get a psychological evaluation, and if they did get that psychological evaluation, from then on people could say, well, you had
to go see someone for psychiatric help. And it seems like they were lose lose in that case, right, So they either went without help or they got it and we're told, see, you're crazy, and they hand out those psyche valves fairly quickly, I know. And this is you know, self disclosure on my part. When I was at you know, boot camp, you know, they give you all kinds of surveys and questionnaires, and one of the questionnaires is asking, you know, h questions about death,
like are you afraid to die? And you know that type of stuff, and you know, personally, from a spiritual standpoint, I'm you know, I'm afraid to think about what happens to the ones I leave behind, but I personally have you know, faith in something. But that triggered them to
do a psychevl on me. And at the end, I asked, you know, when I passed, I was like what, and they're like, well, you had you know, you're not afraid of death and all that stuff, and I think they were didn't want any type of Rambo type personality out there, but it just did. Just that triggered a psyche val and nothing ever came in my career, but it was just something real little in
it. I feel like Clifford Stone spoke about how they kept trying to push him to do on and he was like, no, I know as soon as I do it, how you're going to use it against me. So I don't know. It seems like no win when on that one. And I think that's unfortunate because we clearly have people who are dealing with PTSD after
encountering something that they were not prepared to deal with mentally. It's you know, people use terms like cognitive dissonance, but it really boils down to if you're basically going through shock, you encountered something that your brain was not prepared to register. In fact, many people think we're still not registering everything because we just are not capable of it, and then you know they're not getting
what they needed for assistance with it. Yeah. I think in the Liberation Times they used the term onto logical shock, and I thought that that resonated with me. I talked about Kevin Rnodes. He said spiritual emergency and that resonates, but ontological shock feels people can digest that once they look up that term and yeah, it's real. It's trauma. So there is no such thing as a vacuum, especially in your psyche so trauma will fill up that
vacuum. It doesn't matter if it's because you're a new kitten, you know, passed away, or if you see a UFO that it will fill up the vacuum. So the fact that they would just deny that manifestation of trauma because it's not catalogued in a certain way, it's and I think that comes down to a lot of the secrecy because they have done things, whether via policy or not, that will have to answer for. So it's they backed themselves into a corner and now the lad's gonna shine on them and they're gonna
have to fess up to a bunch of things. And I don't know how it's going to turn out. Well. I certainly hope when they passed the NDAA that when they were talking about the biological medical interest that they were going to have that they were also including a psychological you know, they were going to start really taking it seriously, because I think there's increased recognition that that
is an issue. Unfortunately, you know, since we were saying before, you know, Mac and Bigelow, they were all working on this decade ago,
so we're a little behind. But hopefully we're going to get there and step up now, right, Yeah, I think you know one person here I know for me, you know, hearing people like misch Love, Jeffrey Mitchel Love is you know, he inspires me to slowly come out with doctor Paul Leslie coming out, you know, just little things like that, and then me coming out, you know, even though I'm still just Chris and
the last name. And again the hesitancy is, Okay, how do we do this without, you know, becoming a segment on the Doctor Phil Show. We want to do it seriously, but we know the inevitable backlash will get from the critics. And then Michel Love even said that people have lost their license because of this, and now I don't know anybody who has, but you know, I'm sure he could give the details. Well, I
know they went after mac at Harvard. Yeah, they pretty seriously and investigated him, and it was difficult for him to keep doing what he was doing. So let's turn it to a more positive note. Let's talk about someone who is serious in psychiatry and psychology, who a lot of people have been quoting and mentioning. And you know who it's going to be, Carl Young. Can you please tell people who Carl Jung is and a little bit about
what he's been saying and how it relates to the phenomenon. Why do people keep mentioning him? So Carl Young was contemporaries with Freud. Basically Freud looked at him as his predecessor. Freud a neurologist, a psychiatrist, very hard science, and Young, who you know, was at the end of his career. I think it's safe to say that Young was more mystic than he was medical, and you know, I appreciate that in him. But Bernardo Castrop has a very good way of describing being Carl Jung and how he is.
He was the he kept a light lit through the twentieth century for the acknowledgment of something greater. Psychology wanted to get recognized. They wanted to come out of the philosophy classrooms, and they wanted to be recognized as a science. So they were The zeitgeist of the time was to remove anything that the hard scientists can say that doesn't make any sense. So a lot of things
that they would develop even though they were experiencing things in session. One example with Freud is so we all know about telepathy to be able to you know, really you know, get thoughts from other people. Well, this this kept happening to Freud, and Freud did not want to acknowledge that it was happening in session, so he gave it a fancy name called thought transference, you know. So it was like, oh, oh yeah, it's basically
saying, yeah, sometimes telepathy happens in a session. So Young is not afraid to say that these things were there, so he kept that. Uh. He opened up various terms that when he when they come, when you hear about him, they resonate so much with like, oh, yeah, that's what the name is. Like archetype the collective unconscious right now in the context of UFOs, and that's where I go. I know, ups,
but I'm always the UFO guy. He saw them as representative of the collective unconscious, the manifestation of our self and our you know, for wholeness. But then at the end of his research said that, but they're physical, you know, so we're dealing with something that's physical and psychic or consciousness, and the collective unconscious to Young was filled with these archetypes. Archetypes are like cookie cutters, but they hold meaning, like the mother archetype, the father
archetype. Archetypes. He referred to them as psychic organs. They're there and the collective unconscious to ensure that humanity has a similar evolution. Everybody is born, has a mother or has the experience of being mother, even if that mother may be out of the picture. The archetype is filled with them through input from the collective unconscious. He saw the collective unconscious as having a type
of volition on its own and a will. He also saw that our interactions with archetypes with over the course of our life creates what we would call complexes. Now you could become obsessed or possessed with an archetype and these you know, complexes. Anyway, the idea is the collective unconscious can manifest physical The
collective unconscious is there to endure that we have a similar psychic development. The phenomenon seems to follow a pattern that mimics the technological age of our time, almost like it's putting a carrot in front of us, you know, and you know we can go back to where you know, they were seeing a stairway to heaven, to a flying carriage. You know, it would morph
with the time that would make sense now. Of course, you know in the fourteen lower you can go back and people were seeing flying saucers and and the like, you know, and paintings and the Renaissance and stuff like that. But the idea is that it is reactive to us on a conscious level. Yes, can you please explain the forteen law? That was definitely one
of those things I wanted a better explanation of as well. So Forti and Lare is everything UFOs, Bigfoot, Mothman, and the way I kind of described for T and Lare is you know, these little, small local newspapers that have published these weird events or experiences that people in their community have had. And a lot of these small newspapers, if anybody's familiar with them,
you know, they're not out to smear their fellow community members. So people have been having experiences with something or something is singular or plural, and I find it fasting that I can pull up a newspaper clipping from nineteen sixty sixty and read an article about a woman who woke up to find three orange men in her you know, bedroom. And you know, with Jacques Valley, we'll talk about how it's like the kookie theater or absurdity of the manifestations are
because they repeat himself, appear to be intentional. So do you do you get the sense that it's I believe he's called it a trickster Do you get the sense that it's part of this game that the phenomenon is playing with us. I believe that there is a trickster entities. My first experience was with
what I now go back as a trickster entity. But I do believe are dealing with all the above because the collective unconscious throughout history of humanity is recording everybody's not only their lives, but their their mental experiences, and the collective unconscious will grow and change with us. That the young said that the actual physical world is the manifestation of our collective unconscious, I mean, he's getting into that idealism now, and I'm sorry, I kind of I wander on
these topics because that's okay. I feel I feel like there's a connection to a lot of different things going on. And one thing that's interesting is that if you look at people who are studying DNA right now, they're saying that what we do in our lives, how we interact with the world impacts our genes, basically turning them on and off. I think they call it epigenetics
or something like that. And it seems very similar to some of the consciousness concepts, the idea that you know, we're kind of manifesting things and it's we're actually literally having a physical effect on ourselves. Does that mean I believe
that, you know, I believe that. I mean there is you can get into like the idealism, like you know with Castrup's analytical idealism, where everything's kind of a manifestation of one consciousness and all of us are disassociated alters of this one consciousness and when we see ghosts or aliens, we're seeing disassociated parts of this larger consciousness. And if if that is the model, everything is true. You know, it comes down to like whatever you can imagine
it could be. And that comes back to that absurdity aspect to it, which to me, it's just that is interesting. Yes, well, I mean, is it absurd or is it we just don't understand because I'm fairly sure we didn't even know that much about genes, say, I don't know fifty years ago, right, So yeah, so some things are just things we do not understand yet. I even I've seen people say even when it comes to UAPs, they're clearly doing something that's natural in some way, we
just don't understand it because we haven't learned everything yet. Yeah. Absolutely, and the way we look at it. And I heard somebody I think it was Nolan who just recently said something to the effect of we're expecting to have these experiences individually, that this intelligence is trying to communicate to us individually. But what if it looks at us as looks at humanity as one giant organism, and it's trying to get the attention of the organism like we would get
the attention of a beehive. So it's not trying to reach out to us individually in that model, but it's trying to just prod humanity as one organism, right, which again goes into what really is kind of implying that we're being guided towards something that Yeah, it's all. It is interesting. It's really for some reason as we talk about this, I'm thinking about like an old fashioned typewriter, you know how you like push down the keys one at
a time. It's not quite as fast and smoothed as keyboards nowadays, you really have to push, really calculate getting those keys in place. So maybe it's like they're trying to send a message pushing the buttons down, Like when
are they going to read the sentence we are writing? Yeah, and you know with the crop circles that I mean that obviously some of the hoaxes, and I hate having to preface that before everything every topic, but there is certainly some crop circles that have been manifested by something that we didn't know, and they there's an intelligence that just seems to emanate emanate from them, and
what are they trying to tell us? You know? So how do you talk to humanity that maybe you know kind of what's you know, partially what's going on, and but the absurity factor keeps you going in one hundred different directions, and you know, somebody like John Keel kind of like drove them off the edge at the end. So I would I guess I want to
go back a little bit. You started talking about your experiences, would you be willing to share a little bit about your own personal experiences with the phenomena on? Yeah, So the the first thing I'd say is there was no craft. There was no it was in a UFO. I'm not even sure
if I would put it in that category. It was an entity. There's a therapeutic intervention that we we use, very simple, but the idea you just asked the client what's your earliest memory, And the idea is that your earliest memory will change based on the mood when I ask you that question. But when I do my own therapy, and you know, my own introspection, I had this. My first memory is this entity. And you know, for the longest time, I called it the devil baby. That's just
what I called it. I was three four years old and it would there was my mom had this cookie jar and the head came off and she put her on the counter so I couldn't reach it because I went to the cookies and this entity, like I was trying to got this entity was walked up the counter and knocked the lid off and it fell on the ground and broke. And you know, I got blamed for it, like I did not do that. Can you tell me what it looked like? The entity it
was? I called it the devil baby, but I don't like that term now because I don't think it was ever being the leveolent. It was screwing with me, It was teasing me. That's why I came to call it a trickster. But it looked like like a Benjamin Button type of baby, like a baby that was an old man that was older than it was. And obviously it's affect and the way it moved wasn't baby like, but that's
how it, you know, presented itself to me. And of course, now looking back, if it was in facing with my collective unconscious, at that point in my life, I didn't have a lot of archetypes integrated. I had a mom, the dad, the house family. There wasn't a lot of archetypes integrated. So when this trickster entity shows up, perhaps he shows up in the way that I would find as threatening, but again I
never hurt me. And then you know, we moved away from their numbers other experiences that I had throughout my life, and kind of what led me to counseling is like, kind of what's going on here, Like I know, I'm not crazy to use a non clinical term, but I'm having these areas is nonetheless, And so when started practicing, and you know, we had one my advisor was a great, great lady, even though she didn't kind of know what I wanted to do. She was just like, hey,
go ahead. But she told me. She's like, we were talking about synchronicities, and she said, you'll find that whatever problems you're going through at the moment personally, the next client and you're the next client that walks through your door is going to be having that same problem. So if you're dealing with problems your marriage, your client's gonna walk in deal with problems or marriage. And it's so interesting how that works. Well, I start to
get clients who were having anomalous experiences like it. Just I kept getting those those clients and the synchronicity, I guess the definition that I have of it is when our conscious intention is aligned with the uncollective unconscious and they come into alignment. Basically, it's a sick like you're on the right path, you're
vibrating at the resident freek that you need to be on right now. And the way that I will let you know the collective unconscious is to give you these little things, a little path to let you know you're going the right way, and they can give you the opposite secretouy say, hey, don't go any further so I would have these experience. Go ahead. I was
gonna say, it's interesting. I hear a lot of people talk about things like getting downloads that guide them or wondering why they end up where they do, and kind of feeling like they're being driven. People used to use terms like destiny, serendipity, you know, things like that. I feel like you're just you have a different vocab for it, but you you're more aware
of it. Yeah, it's And there's somebody on Twitter and he's a great jockey, but he said one time that her people who have experienced with the phenomena, or if they don't, they're just touched. And once that happens, once that's activated, you become hooked by it. And for me, I was driven into this and partially, you know, now I know why I'm I don't like the term psychic. I get, but I get impressions that have been validated, you know, through twenty years of marriage and now
ten years of practice with my colleagues. It's just I can get an impression when I sit with somebody that I know. My colleagues don't, and you know, Milton Erickson, another famous psychologist, was the same way. He had these. He would never call it psychic. He just you get downloads. I guess the term for it, and I always call them impressions. It's not imagies. It's just so okay. I know. I feel like a lot of people talk about that, their impaths, and then of course
a lot of those people end up in the psychology field. So I don't know. I wonder, you know, is it we're driven to the field because we have some of those any abilities? Do you think or do you think it's just an overall curiosity about all of it? I think both. I think d innate ability part. So counting is hard, therapy is hard. You know. You I worked construction jobs fifty or sixty hours a week, and the level of exhaustion I would have after that job was nowhere compared
compared to six, seven, eight clients in a row. So it's exhaust and the need there needs to be an innate ability because you're become robotic, you know, And that's kind of the system that is designed. I'll get as many people through as possible, but there is an idea of that. I am here because I get these impressions. What am I going to use it for? It wasn't like a conscious idea, but you know, I imagine you know, great athletes, you know, just know they just are
led to a sport where they excel. Yeah, that's a good point. I think that probably happens for other people. In fact, I think doctor Pisolka calls it, of course, like a calling. I don't know if you've read American Cosmic. She's great. Yes, yeah, I love how she looked at from the religion and vocal or aspect, where she right off the bat says, I'm here see if what these people are telling me is
right or wrong. That's just documentary experiences. Listen to people. And the reception that she's got, especially from our community, has been nothing but positive because she's she's not out there trying to with you know, trying to get people just like, Hey, I'd like to hear that this is not going away. It's fascinating. It's my undergrad was in social soology, so I the closer I can get to you. Well, I feel like her approach
has definitely been you know, more open minded. Like she she's also been very honest about her own opinion at the same time, and for some reason she manages to do that without being offensive. And I wish we could all do right. Yeah, yeah, I know, I just I hope everyone starts learning that skill because she's she took it very seriously. She took it with uh, you know, her own opinions still intact, and was willing to change her opinions over time. I think that, you know, I
think we need more academics to come in with that approach. People who are willing to listen, not necessarily put their opinion first, they can break their opinion, but who are willing to listen to the other opinions. I couldn't agree more. And it's a recent phenomena, you know, it's you know, only for the past hundred years have we been conditioned as a culture to deny this stuff. You know, one hundred or fifty years ago, you
know that wasn't the case. So our cultures to change almost two extenomena. Our culture the way is structure right now, it's almost it's misaligned with where the phenomena wants to guess actually hit on that, right, I keep I keep talking about. You know, when you look at the psychology of humans, there's about three tiers and one is magic, what is science, and one is religion. And we used to be at a place where I think those things were more connected and now, you know, maybe we're coming back
to being connected on those three again. But there was quite a delay, it wasn't there. Yeah, And it's and it's a recent phenomena, but we don't know that, you know, because it's all we know, you know. But if you know, we could place our culture two hundred years ago, this stuff wouldn't be as dismissed as easily. And the Internet and the way we're able to share information now, it's there's no way of the
dying it. The only way is how do we integrate what's happening? And I believe cultural and societal changes are necessary to integrate this because as we're structured now, I don't believe we can integrate the phenomena. Yeah, it's a little too much opposition, right, Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting. Well, Lesa, try to try. I'm in on that one. For some reason, that was odd. I don't know if you heard that. I'm
definitely wasn't. It was Alex, Okay, Yeah, I was like, I don't, We're not no, it was Alexa, and I'm like, it's so funny because what I was about to say was I remember Jock Phil talked a little bit about how the next phase for us is gonna be basically like the Internet, right, And I can't help but find myself comparing the collective consciousness to the Internet and how we basically are using AI to do what we may have already been doing but not so aware of. Does that make
yeah, I have No, it's absolutely a lot. I have a theory too, because we have. I think it's just that the collect consciousness empirically through not only young work, you know the seventy five You know, fifty years after that, the collective unconsciousness is real. And then where's the collective consciousness? You know, the the collective unconscious waking up and the Internet feels
an means to wake up the collective consciousness. Now you and others have theorized if this happen, it's going to be you know hard, it's given birth. You would give birth to well collective consciousness. And that doesn't mean we all can read each other's thoughts instantly, but I believe it means that our ability to react in a unified manner is you know, one day compared to one year, we're going to be able to move almost like a collective organism.
That's I believe where we're going. What's funny about that is it goes full circle back to what you said before about if the phenomenon sees us as one organism, and it's almost like we're becoming what maybe what they wanted us to become. I it would like, I guess it's probably anthropromising it whatever the word is. But like if I were an intelligence and I wanted to contact Earth, and right now Earth was separated into seventy nine different tribes,
all believing that, you know, there should be the diplomat. I'm going to wait until they organize themselves a little better, you know, then the theorist of new World order and everything. It's like, I think just practically the Phenomena would rather deal with us collectively as opposed to individual And it's funny because I have to say, the cliche take me to your leader came into
my head. And of course, of course it would make sense if we just had the one leader for them to be taken to, right, yeah, yeah, And we don't have anything we don't have you know that structured you know, I know there's exopolitics being discussed at to U N, but it's really kind of like I think a side project do over lunch. I don't think they're really engaged with Okay, what if this happens, what's the
protocol? And honestly, I think that every country would argue that they have a different protocol, you know, like one country, Yeah, one country might be like, hey, help us out with curing cancer. Another might be, hey, make us better ships. Another might be like, hey, you're from our religious text, can you be our god again? You know, it's I think every country will respond differently, and that might be a little more It might be more complicated to have that engagement because of that.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It was that one Carrie movie where he becomes God and he has to answer the prayers and the prayers come through email, and the email is just like you have like through thirty billion unread
messages. And so when we look at and that's our ego talking, our ego consciousness when we said we wanted to interact with us individually, and I think the evolution of any intelligent being will be to somehow eventually coalesce to be a collective and then maybe then we'll have some form of I guess contact disclosure.
Yeah, people always talk about you know, of course, some of these civilizations, if they are extraterrestrial, could have been around like billions of years, you know, longer than us, right, and could have reached a very different place in their civilization than we have. They could have already figured out a lot of these things and gotten over boundaries of uh, you know, country lines and things like that, and finished all their battles and
finally figured it out. You know. Yeah, there's an Nolan was talking with Lex Friedman. I think he asked him a question to the effect of, well, how does something that's conscious become physical? And Nolan went on to describe how you could, you know, individually, you know, charge individual molecules to do certain things, and then you know, in theory that could happen if you know what the goal is, the idea that it could just like an app or one day we'll have the science to be able to
do that. And once you get to that level, I imagine the science is just quick, you know, when you're quantum computing some of this stuff. Well, I think quantum computers are where they're looking now, right. And actually, when I was doing research initially on this topic, the UAP topic, I did not find just one place where they were working on moving craft with our brains. I found multiple projects working on that. And of course, you know, Elon Musk is working on putting chips inside our brains.
And you know, I feel like we might be trying to speed up a process that maybe we would have come to on our own. I think we have maybe evolved to perceive some more things and maybe are trying to open
our eyes to things a little bit more now. But I didn't. We're and you say, I to speed that process up quite a bit, Yeah, I agree, And that was you know, I'm not a tech guy, but I asked them, you know, a tech guys like you know, once we have a practically functioning quantum computing system, you know, all the a lot of these problems that we have not been able to solve, especially you know when they talk about space quantum that they'll be able to solve.
And he's basically he's like, yeah, he's like they recently did a quantita or it took him. I don't A couple of minutes to solve this equation that would have taken regular computers one hundred years. So multiply that by a thousand equation. You can feed this thing a thousand equations a day, and now we're, you know, millennia in the future. When it comes
to our knowledge. It's used a way, right, So knowing that that we are, you know, pretty much catching up as much as possible to the phenomenon in some ways, which hypothesis do you feel like you kind of lean towards? It sounds like you spoke a lot about the control hypothesis from Vallet, and of course you know there's a possibility that we touched on et h. The extraterrestrial hypothesis a little bit. But which way do you feel
like you're leaning or are you just staying open to any possibility. I'll always stay open because it's self serving. It's more fun to stay open. It's
everything, then close myself off. So I believe the UFO phenomena as we call it now, is not just UFOs, but it's also go hosts, and it's also out of add the experiences and all these things overlap in a ven diagram type of way, which then leads my hypothesis that you know, whatever to collective unconscious, that you know, the the consciousness that spawned each individual consciousness to be able to reflect on it, there's no bounds to that.
Complexes damons you. He let it open that the collective unconscious could ontologically be its own society and have certain aspects of the phenomena that do these things. Certains that these things that they're just as disparre and unorganized as humanity. And there's even further theory that you know, we are the collective unconscious of that you know reality, that is the yin and yang. You know,
we're kind of on top of one another. That they look at us as you know, they're collective unconscious, as we look at them, and you know, we're basically staring in the mirror. So I believe a lot of it originates from the collective unconscious. That doesn't mean they're not intelligent and under their own volition, and it doesn't mean they're physical, but I believe they
use that as a means to get here. Well, what's interesting about that is it's almost another way of thinking of interdimensional yes exactly, and that's so young called the collective unconscious, because that's the term of the time, you know, And in his letters with Polly, the Young Polly letters, you know, that's exactly what he was saying. He was telling Polly that, you know, you're described quantum physics to me with different words that I was
describing psychology. That they mimic each other. So there's there's there's a hard science to it, right, And I think that's what I'm discovering the more I explore this. I'm definitely, you know, obviously taking the research approach and trying to explore as much as I can and understand it. And I'm also trying to do it in a way that that's tangible for the general public. So that's why I'm always kind of picking at little that sounds like that
word and whatever. I'm like, you know, we got to simplify things. I think we get lost a little bit in some of the more complicated concepts, and really just you know, when you're going to be having a conversation at Thanksgiving about interdimensional beings, we better be able to explain it to to Uncle Joe. You know, we can't. We can't be throwing out things that they don't understand. So I don't know. I think that also in my experience so far, looking at everything, there's a lot of different
things going on, and there are some common patterns. Yes, there's there's a lot of pattern I mean, as far as my hypothesis, that's as certain as I could get. Now, it's real. I don't know why you're out, but it's real. Yeah, I think we're all sighing. Finally that the government has accepted that, admitting that as well. Right, finally after well, people say seventy years, but we know it's longer, right, I'm personal. Well, it was room for me to say to my wife, be like, see, I told you, I know,
I know, I I you right. I also greatly appreciate having a law on the books to point out to people, you know, someone's taking this seriously, don't laugh at me. Yeah, exactly. And then that's an element that stigma's still there, you know, even though we're talking openly here, the stigma is still there. All right. Let me, yes, I know. I think that it's interesting. I will tell you, since
I am in the field of psychology, that you'll appreciate. I have told some of my coworkers about my interest in UFOs and instead of being ridiculed or laughed at or whatever, they were very open minded. And one of them turned around and told me their UFO story. And that's when you do, Like generalachar, I think it's over half the population has had a powerful experience in their lifetine. So when we're saying that these are rare, they're not rare. You're you know, it's like a flow of a coin. If
you're going to have an experience that you can and explain right. Well, I think that if more people were looking for it, it would probably as they say, look back right, and it's reactive. I always say that to my clients that whatever you're dealing with, if it's part of the club unconsciously, you know, it's reactive. And we know that this is a co creative process that no one is under You're under no one's control. Mm
hm. So I know that we are wrapping up shortly because we've reached an hour, and I really want to give you a chance to talk about the web page that you're building based on your interest and your background. Can you please tell listeners about that? Yeah? Yeah, so at first, so I've been moved for decades, just you know, personally. And there was a time I was like fourteen years old, many majors. I had all my collection of UFO books and haunting books and vhs is of all my bed
and my mom came in, She's like, what is this? And I said, this is the beautiful underground. It just came out, so this idea that at least there was a lot of fear to the unknown, and I always thought it was fun. And that's why I was like, hey, this is this is fun to go in these different things. So start researching and practicing and trying and more serious. And I got to the point
where I had more to say. So I was like, I'm gonna start a blog and then I'm you know, start writing, and my my research is all over the place, so I got some over here. When I'm trying to reference something because i'm you know, academic to a fault, sometimes it takes me a half hour to track down where I heard that one phrase that I wanted to now, you know, reference in what I'm writing. So I'm going to just upload all my research in a like a web server
organization so I can take all my and do content analysis on it. I'm starting to do meta analysis on So I'm never going to be able to read the thousands of UFO books that are out there of people and their experiences. But if all those books were somehow uploaded into a server and you can do like content analysis on the whole corpus, you could find patterns that we aren't recognizing right now. So I have this big idea that I'll be able to
do something like that. But the thought behind it is, I want to organize my research exactly for me, and in the process if other people find that, Hey, I like the way that is, and when I upload articles, I feel I'm going to do it in a way that you can search them the content of it, not just an image. So that's the idea, and it's just fun. I'm you know, I'm having a good time with it right now. Right well, you know, I'm going to
put that on the UFO connector because it sounds fascinating. So you're gonna have to message me as soon as it's live. Absolutely, you're going on. I'm always on your side, And I have like a list of what I'm just calling friends to just be like because obviously I'm pulling information from work and I think this kind of where a lot of it starts. It's it's like, man, I wish I had everything that I would need in one spot and then I wouldn't have to go all over So it's very self serving venture.
And if other people like it awesome, well yeah, I think I was frustrated because when I was doing my research, I was finding things hidden all over the place and it was not connected, which is exactly why I needed it a connectre like so I and I also wanted to support all the work other people had done. So I wanted people to not start from scratch like I had felt like I had to do. It's a fabulous job, right, It's yeah, I mean get in there and it's it's nice and
simple, you know. And that's one thing about my say. I don't think I'm gonna do like ads or anything. It's just going to be like, all right, this is for all yah to be fast and quick and right. And I'm glad you're taking the fun approach, you know. It's funny. People don't always react well to my approach to the phenomenon. I do not have the level of fear that I have encountered in other people. I actually think of it as natural, and that's not always taken very fall,
But I have a similar idea about it. Yeah, I know I'm not I'm like, hey, come on, and then to talk about oh yeah, initiating contact of that, you don't mind if I do, Like, yeah, I'm not so bad that I'm like out there saying okay, just put me on your ship per se. Like I've heard people say that, and I've been I've been made fun of and told that I'd be the person on top of the tower with the sign if a big ship showed up in Independence Day. But I don't think I'm I don't think I'm that far.
I think it's more like when we have a discussion, to me, it's almost like we're talking about whales or anything that's natural to me, like comments asteroids. Oh, if that's natural to me, we could be talking about you know, a NASA spacecraft. You know, It's like to me, it's just part of the natural world. So I hope more people are able to imfray sit in a positive way, either with the find or the natural, or if they're not and they're still struggling, they have learned from
this discussion that there's people available who are going to support that process. There's people who are doing the work like you, and there's people at OPUS, and there's experience or support groups. So people who are struggling with it will find somebody if they need it. Absolutely, yeah, you know, and I always say, just from a Nettal standpoint that you know, the Beautiful Underground is not affiliated with my private practice, but it's it's my passion.
They're both my passion. So if anybody's out there who sees this, he's like, yeah, I have a lot of questions. I get a lot of dms like that, and just and I they just times just need it framed in a different way, or sometimes just a matter of okay, when you go in you want to ask these questions mm hmm, and they're like, okay, I feel better now. I have three questions. Ask when I go to my therapist if it's going to be a fit or not right.
And of course I would like to for anyone listening who is having issues with mental health and is hesitant to speak to a therapist, I'd like to remind you, as we said earlier, a therapist is not supposed to be judging the cause. They're supposed to be treating the symptoms, and if you
are struggling, they're getting literally paid to help people who are struggling. And if you just are in with one that's not the right match, you're going to find out there's going to be people like Chris who are so don't give up. Your mental health is extremely important. I just wanted to make sure people hurt that. Absolutely, absolutely, there are a lot of people out there to help, right So, Chris, could you please let people know
where they can find you right now? The only place on that is Twitter. I'm a social media news of four months ago, but I'm at ghost Archetype. Are at ghost Archetype and the Beautiful Underground is my my title and my name. My name is Chris. But you know, the irony of all this is as I'm talking about how we need to be more open and you know, not give into the stigma. I'm still just Chris, and you know I'm still semi anonymous. I just don't feel like having a conversation
yet. You know, I think my reasoning is a little different, but I will say that I did think of another reason. I work with children a great deal, and I really don't think they need to see me on the internet talking about dmt elves. That's another reason right there. Yeah, I like the X files. And there's this one person I follow that she always puts X file stuff up, but supposedly she does like seductive fan fiction with the X files and her students. She's a high school teacher and her
students found out. To me, that's just as funny. But you've got to be careful what you put out there. I know, we were talking recently about some people have had some very interesting teachers right now. For instance, some people have Rick Dodi as their math teacher, and some people had Heinek as a teacher. You know, like, how cool was that? But you but you know, that's okay. They don't need to know what I'm doing, and in my mind, I'm doing it kind of for everyone
in the world. But yeah, that's cool. I could just be their counselor. That's fine. I'm good with that. Yeah, yeah, and it's any counselor, even if you know that wasn't your perspective. You know, our world view shouldn't be intruding into session. You know, we set space for them, so regardless of my badge, that space is saved for them and we need to remember that regardless of our of our opinions, that help. So if you believe right it is, it is helpful to be
supportive. And you know, it's funny. I just I'm just going to chime in. I have this need to explain these things to people. It's it's very similar to for instance, someone who's going through something in their life, they're going to go to the minister of their church. You know, They're not necessarily going to go to another church, another person, another reverend
of someone else's church. So you know, you could almost say comparatively, if someone's having an issue in their life related to APS, it makes sense they would want to go to a therapist that would understand and believe as opposed to another religion like or another you know, a person that doesn't. So it just don't feel bad if you need someone who's a believer to be your
therapist. Yeah, I mean, I think that helps for me. You know, even like spiritual based counselors have you know, sometimes whether it's a Christian you know, backing or whatever it is, So it helps and you know self, but you know, it's I have to at least admit it, you know, to an extent. My experience is if I want people them to admit them to me to or process them with me, the wrong
work. Okay, Well, again, I want to thank you very much for coming and talking to me. I greatly appreciate that you gave me your time, and that you have so many interesting things to provide to people in the community. Information, a future website, all kinds of information about young you know, so much going on support all of those wonderful things. You know. I can't speak for the entire community, but I can say I
appreciate it a great deal. And again, please remind people where they can find you on Twitter, the Beautiful Underground at ghost archetype and that website. Will I'd probably give it a two to three month timeline, okay, but it would be a great Another resource for researcher is like the UFO or it's out there, the better we are right. Absolutely, again, thank you very much, and I'm going to go ahead and side off. This is dev from devs Data Dojo, part of the Calling All Beings podcasts. I
can be found at Twitter at Study of UAPs. Also I am on LinkedIn, Facebook and I can be seen on YouTube with calling all beings okay, have a good night everybody, and have a good day if it's a different time zone, Hi, everybody A deb fie