Hi, everyone, It's me and Courtney. Courtney gonna say hello, right, So we wanted to have a chat, have a conversation with some really cool co host of their own show, Elephant in the room, and without further ado, we would like to talk to them. Please bring them to the stagey DJ's hanging in the background. Today is a little busy, so and Courtney's on the road. So it's an interesting day today. But so can you guys tell us a little bit about your show?
Harry, I, why didn't you start?
Oh my goodness, I knew you were going to do that. Yeah, no, of course.
So I was kind of in the UFO Twitter space for a while, and Chris was too, and I had kind of dabbled off and on with my own sort of YouTube channel. I'd done a little bit of blogging here and there just about the topic, and from there I was just sort of feeling stuck and I wasn't sure, you know, what I was going to do next and where my journey was going to take me. And then out of the blue one day Chris dms me and says basically just said, hey, I have a crazy idea.
How about you and I start a podcast? And I was like, you know what, Yes, let's do it. And so we I mean, we did not know each other at that point, and we hopped on Zoom like a week later just to kind of meet and greet and get to know each other, and we instantly knew We're like, this is the vibe. We we just had so much in common, there were synchronicities, and yeah, from there we just kind of jumped in and we talk about UFOs. We talk about all other connecting aspects, you know, consciousness,
high strangeness, science, spirituality, you name it. You know, there's just so many, so many topics that are connected to the UFO phenomenon. So we just kind of like to cover it all. Although I will say that we do very much gravitate to it's the actual UFO phenomenon.
So yeah, Chris, you want to add anything to that.
No, I mean, that's exactly what happened. I just kind of, I don't know, I got back from actually dead from DC and it was shortly after that I just felt
really like, Okay, I want to do something. I don't know what I want to do, to be honest, and I just felt like, Okay, this is something I can do, and I didn't want to do it alone, and I just I looked out and I had been, you know, obviously on Twitter for a long time, and I really felt a camaraderie with Ariel just through Twitter, and you know, honestly, I'm kind of a risk taker. So I reached out and we made the connection and and you know, we
just haven't looked back. Neither of us are you know, trying to like change the world or anything with our podcast. We're really we want to number one, learn from from our guests, and it's kind of more of an exploration for ourselves, to be honest, and obviously we want to share that with the world because when I see the world, whoever in our little world wants to listen. So yeah, that's kind of where we're at with the podcast. That's kind of what generated it.
Okay, Well, I just want to point out to those who do not know, Chris was at the hearing and I was there and I got to meet Chris and she has extremely positive energy. She's also done an interview with me before for uap MED, so she's doing a lot more than the podcast.
She's just like.
Feed on the ground. They're at the hearing meeting people, you know, putting her information out to like get this progress that we were all hoping to have with this topic. Right, So, I don't know Courtney, Courtney's able to chime in or not. Courtney, is there something you wanted to ask?
Okay?
Yeah, I swear Courtney's there, She'll be back, okay. So okay, So the next thing I wanted to ask you guys about the show is in this exploration that you're doing together, what is sort of like standing out for you is something that people should be focusing on more like in this topic, Like you mentioned consciousness, that one's sort of like, you know, controversial for people. But what is like really like this this is something we really need to dig into more.
I the first thing that comes to mind for me is, you know, I have not dug too far into the work of Jacques Vallet, but I'm just you know, I'm aware of what his you know, the brief overview at it, and you know his his idea is that we need to look and we need to try to find a way to account for all of the aspects of the UFO phenomenon that we sometimes brush aside, you know, even things like you know, missing time, you know, things like that, or just orbs or you know, entities and just strange
high strangeness that often accompanies a quote unquote nuts and bolts sighting.
We need to find a way to account for that.
And you know, I know he's a proponent of the interdimensional theory and he thinks that maybe that is something that can account for, you know, grouping everything together. But I think that's something that some people tend to shy away from, is they want to just focus on the nuts and bolts. But once you really get into this topic, you realize that there's just so much more to it and we can't just keep brushing that high strangeness stuff aside.
Yeah, I agree, I think that's I remember when when I first got on UFO Twitter, it was like in twenty twenty one and spaces were just starting and we jump onto spaces and I remember we would call it the WU. Back then, you know, it was like no one wanted to talk about the WU, but a few of us wanted to like go there because there were their experiences included high strangeness. But now I do see it. It's more common as a topic that people are willing
to engage. But I think from a like a scientific perspective, it's going to be very difficult for that shift to happen because of the scientific method, and it's very difficult to repeat right these types of events. But I mean, honestly, there's so much hope I think. And I just saw
that episode last night of Ross Coltheart. I don't know if you guys saw it, and I apologize because I don't know the man's name, but he had one of the scientists from Skinwalker Ranch, like the early the bass ASA program, Skinwalker Ranch, guy on and he talked about a study and court you may be familiar with this of like six hundred patients where they've got correlation data
from like three data points with personal devices. These these individuals where and record not only like biological like body response, but environmental response, and then they also have anecdotal experiences. So three out of thousands of patients, they didn't they only picked the ones that had these three data points, which they had several that had like two data points, which was still a strong, you know, correlation, but they didn't accept that. So I'm just starting to see that
there's just there is more data out there. Than we were aware of than has been made public, and those types of studies are taking into account the anecdotal data that identifies the high strangeness, you know, the experience. Or they did a great case study there where they showed you know, this experience are waking up and saying, oh my gosh, like if I was ever abducted, it was last night, and they were able to correlate it with the other two data points to like the second it's
just amazing, what's happening, what's starting to happen? I think anyway, that was.
Jim Sigala study, Chris, I think that you're talking about, and they did they did like a multiple prong approach where they gave the experiencers and correct me if I'm wrong. But I read through all the slides and everything, and I've been following the data that's come out from that. But what I thought was really novel in that research is they gave them like a personal a personal device to take with them to work and also in their home.
And one of the things that they found was there was twenty two times the gamma ray signature out of their sensor data with the experiencers. So I thought that that was really interesting. I didn't get to watch the recent video, but I really like their the way they're the way they're collecting their data, and how they're doing it. He did a really interesting study, so I'm waiting to hear more about it. I've asked a couple people who we've had on CAV about that data, and they've all
just said, asked Jim. So I need to go to Jim and ask how he did the Gamma ray collection, because that, to me is the most interesting part so far.
Well, and it sounds like we can purchase this device from him, so, I mean, I have no idea how much it is, but I was definitely tempted to look it up because you know, like Jared on UFO Twitter and he's doing a project that that incorporates different like EEG data, He's trying to study the same thing, and it's just like, well, there's already somebody out there doing some of this. This is really interesting, and it's it's it's yeah, I don't know. I just found that that recent.
Who is that individual?
Can you say his name again? I'm sure I'm aware of him.
Dr BO D D A y A R B O. I think on Twitter.
Yeah, I've actually interviewed him as well.
Yeah, and he works Joel from the Future Future folk your folklore, I got your girl, thank you. There goes my name thing my my brain. But yeah, anyways, he's he's doing some early investigations in that manner. So yeah,
it's just really interesting where it's going. So I agree, Areel, that is something that needs to be addressed and from a multi you know, multi dimensional uh way, we need to approach the topic because there's just too many, too many fingers, you know, too many areas and impacts and uh we can't ignore the anecdotal and the like you said, the.
I say, my favorite part about this so is like people try to say there's one fight or the other, but it is possible to merge them with things like that. And by the way, the device, there's one called the Muse. They're not sponsoring me, but it's on Amazon. I seen mixed reviews about it, but supposedly it's like, you know, you can just read your own brain waves at home, and I was fascinated by it. And when they did
use something similar at Skinwalker ranch On. I can't remember his name either, I have probably yes, thank you I'm surprised.
I remember it only because I recently.
Watched it talked about the theta brain wave state, and the theta brain wave sate is fascinating because that's the one where people will have like these epiphanies of great ideas. It's also the one that's when people are meditating their each sure having deep prayer. So I feel like if we meditate or have deep prayer, we're going to have like these deep revelations if we access that data brain
wave state. So it is interesting how often, like when we put science to the woo, there's actually something underneath it that can be helpful to everyone. So I agree it's cool.
Very much.
So, So I wanted to ask, now that you guys have been underway with this exploration and you've identified some of the things that really need to be looked at, what still strikes you it's just like really weird, Like what is just like too weird for you at this point, or or like something that makes you go what oh, Because sometimes we hit something that even I'm like, oh, I don't know about that. I don't know if I want to go down that rabbit hole. But what is it that you guys are dealing with.
That's a great question, Ariel, do you have anything yet, because I mean, to me, there's a few things.
I feel I don't know.
For me, time traveling humans gets me every time, Like when that theory is brought up.
My brain, I don't know.
I just I feel like that would just fundamentally because yes, visitors from another planet. Absolutely, that would fundamentally change everything too. I'm not saying that wouldn't you know, be just crazy, but being able to travel time, I mean that would just that would change everything, and that would really just even change how we like good history in the past.
I mean it would just I don't know.
That just for me is something that is kind of blows my mind to think about when that theory gets brought up.
That's a really good one. Yeah, for me, I think I think the thing I personally struggle with the most is the.
Oh no, we we understand, no big Well.
What about you guys, what's your strength? What's like, what's yours?
Oh?
The non corporal thing. There's the theory that NYHI has gotten to the point where they don't need bodies. Oh. Yes, that one freaks me out because actually Courtney knows him Dave Scott talked about these entities entering craft to navigate them, and that freaked me out because I don't want to get trapped in a craft having to navigate it after I pass away.
That's like, yeah, deep, like who thought of that?
Well, it doesn't seem like it wasn't implied that it was enslavement or anything like that, but that idea freaks me out. That's one that like, if I go into that thought too much, I'm like, no, I when I pass I want to have some say and what I'm doing with my soul, you know.
Interesting.
I think the entities coming through the wall for me is one of the hardest and it's you know, it's falls in in that whole body of work with abductions, and so I'm still one of the hardest things for
me to reconcile as abductions. And I know there's a lot of I know, there's a lot of opinions about that and even you know, in Kit Green's one famous quote, he said, there are absolutely no abductions, right, And so that's one of the things that really gets to me because I go into my you know, dark thoughts at night, you know, when I'm going to bed wondering, well, what
did he mean? You know, if there are no abductions, And I just saw a recent comment about it, a new take on it that I'm not ready to talk about yet. But I just was reading something as of yesterday that would kind of explain away the idea of abductions not being from the visitors but being a whole nother kind of like corporeal phenomenon. So once I look at that and can kind of tease that apart a little bit, I'll be more ready to talk about it. I just don't feel as articulate right now because I'm
just coming upon it. So anyway, Yeah, abductions, the beings coming through the wall, having no control, that's one of my biggest problems.
Going through the wall thing touches on my thing, like the no body like they're beyond bodies, they're at the next stage, which leads to something I brought up in a recent episode, probably the last one. What if all of us at some point are those entities and we just temporarily visit being in a body and it like goes into a hole like see that the rabbit hole. It leads to, Yeah, Chris, you didn't answer this yet. Did you come up with some of them?
Yeah? Yeah, it's too hard for me to nail it down to one thing. I mean, it's not it's it's interesting because I'm hearing what you guys are saying, and for whatever reason, they don't spark any like emotion in me, and I'm like, oh my god, what's wrong with me?
Like it might be terrified because I've thought about it a lot of times, Like I just as much as I believe, I totally believe that not only have I encountered aspects of the phenomenon, I just there's something that still blocks me from thinking I will have some sort of entity experience. I don't know why, because I believe that they do happen, and I you know, heard people out you know that I trust that I think have
had these experiences. But I don't know. Maybe it's just this weird curiosity in me just to try and understand it more like it would be more, it would be more of like I mean, I'm sure I would be terrified.
I'm sure it'd be horrified, but there's just this curiosity to understand it, So I don't I think the worst case scenario would obviously be if they were, you know, a manvolent invasion of some sort would be probably because that's kind of what I dreamed about as a child before I was into this phenomenon, and I was terrified of them as children as a child, and I didn't really have any other years between of really like connecting
the dots. So I think that would probably be my biggest fear now that I think about it.
It is always interesting to me how often children report seeing something in their room and people brush it aside and say, oh, there's nothing there, and they go and they put the flashlight under the bed. This happened to me, by the way, because I would I was so scared about something being under my bed that I would jump to my bed right so. And and I actually still don't like gnomes because I told my family that there were nomes under my bed. And to this day, I
don't get why there are nomes everywhere. It's like, what is going on? Why do people have gnomes and decorations like.
The little gnomes and people's lawns are like Deb's worst nightmare.
I don't know.
I know, go ahead, I have a couple of those, like, but this is this is a different like the little ones that are like squished that are at like, for instance, they're all over the dollar to either all over the dollar store, right, Like, why are they a thing now for every holiday?
Yeah, Well, I was just going to add on to you to what you said, deb that one of the things that really stood out to me when I read one of John Max's books. I'm not exactly sure which one it is right now because it's been a long time ago, but he went into the children's cases and one of the things that he said when he was talking about his abduction syndrome was that the kids were most of them, their stories were very similar. That was one of the things that I liked his analysis on that.
And then he also said a lot of them are too young to have like psychiatric disorders at that point in their life, like delusional disorders or other kinds of serious, you know, psychiatric problems that they just that they don't clinically. So that was the other thing about max work that I really liked, when you talk about the kids cases
and how it brought abduction syndrome into the light. So I'm not sure how many people have picked up on that, but I think the kids studies that he did were raw authenticity and validity into the field.
All right, So you know, I go back to what you said before about Kit Green saying they're not abductions, and I know you don't want to say what your new information on that is and a new perspective, but you know, let's pull this out for Ariel and Chris. Do you think like this is just my take on that, maybe it's something else, like maybe it's not malevolent malevolent, sorry, but maybe it's like almost an agreement, a partnership or something.
Or maybe it's back to what I say with the rabbit hole, like this is just us, we're connecting back with ourselves and like the body is just like a temporary thing. I don't know, man, the whole thing about that freaks me out. But what do you guys think?
Well, I will, I might My view is a little out there, to be honest with you, but I I tend to think when you say there's an agreement, I wonder if there if there's either an agreement with someone above our pay skill that you know, if that exists or not about what they do with us, or I think deb you're probably talking about like a personal agreement.
Maybe that that's the case, But is there a also or is there is it just that you know, I know it's simple, but we you know, we're the lab rats and they just we even if they explained it to us and tried to express why maybe they're doing things, we would not have a concept or understanding or ability to comprehend. I mean, it could be manevolent, it could be for our own good. They could be studying our food supply, and you know, why do they always study?
I think that's a curious thing. So and I'm not saying it's okay, but I also think like we do that. We do that to our animals, We do it to our pets. We put them on tables, like we test them. We don't give them, we don't they don't give consent. You know, these are sentient beings and we make that decision for them. Is that something that could be happening to us is just another question I have.
I'm like afraid to give them that role of being superior parentalfied entities, you know what I mean, Like I don't like that when and I'm saying it's not the case, I'm just saying it makes me really uncomfortable when people talk about them being superior, and I'm like, just because someone has a better car, it doesn't make them better than me. So I just it's like a self righteousness comes out.
What do you think, Ariel, I tend, I tend to agree with you.
I I feel like and I understand, but I don't necessarily I see levels of sentience and so we are much more sentient self aware than animals, and so like, I guess maybe you could make the case that an evolve species is you know, much more sentient than we are and could make decisions for us. However, I feel like with the self awareness that we do have, that they would need to, like we would need to give consent.
I don't know. That's just kind of where I'm at with it.
Well, then there's the hypothesis that it's the my labs that they're you know, they're overlaid, that there is possibly an h eye contact or an encounter, and then you know, usually after that there's you know, my lab, and you know, I have to be real honest and trans parent and say that I didn't used to believe in you know, my labs because it was just too horrifying I think for me to actually believe that our own government might
be abducting. But you know, once you start to look at all the studies and things that have been done and ethically, you start to figure out real quick that it's very possible and also likely. And so I think that there is a you know, a compounded traumatic you know, layer there when you're talking about NHI encounters potentially and what that's all about. But then also the my labs.
So I have heard for a lot from experiencers saying that they believe that it's the government, that one part of this is the government, And so it's horrifying, right, it's horrifying to think that that's happening, but that it's all being done supposedly, even legally right for studying the
phenomenon and studying the NHI. So I have a problem with all of it actually because I think that it's it's not only consent, it's like violations right, physical, mental, emotional, and being violated and then being left with having no answers to any questions at all. And so I think that's why I have such a hard time with that part of the field of study, is because it's all unethical.
It's all horrifying, and to be knowing that, you know, the my lab phenomena is real for me now has even taking me many years to process and absorb and to come to grips with it because so many people have similar experiences. So I don't know how you feel about that deb about you know, the my lab part of it. We've never really talked about that, but I imagine you probably don't.
You know, we're going to bring that to the table. But before we do, and a non et, by the way, mentioned mys and the chat high and on, I just wanted to say, before we bring my labs out and some of the things that are behind that, I wanted to mention the con sent part that even if we were in some way giving consent to these entities, it's
sort of like getting consent from a drunk person. Because we hear about them manipulating people with a sense that true, that such a good right, Like they get like people this wave of euphoria, right, And I'm like, that's manipulation, Like we could we don't know, Like they're suddenly feeling really happy to see this giant ship over their house.
I'm like, no, that there's something's not right there, like they manipulate because it's not that actually hard to do, Like they do that now with a type of therapy that's like a magnetic wand that they put over someone's head. And imagine having greater technology, like you can easily manipulate people if you know how to do it. So it's scary. So myla, I want to go a step farther down.
Yeah, if you don't mind. This is something that just really gets in my craw a lot. And I am going to be controversial in saying this, but we're all women here, so we have a stake in this, and nobody ever talks about it. But I think it's time we finally start, especially as women like spearheading some of this together. And I didn't think this would come up, but it's a good segue and nobody has to make a comment on this. It's just something that I've been
really upset with lately. Is I hear Danny Shean, you know on the Circuit, you know, in the podcast Circuit talking about disclosure and talking about you know, are intergalactic family and being part of citizens right of this larger universe.
And one of the things that comes up crops up periodically, is that he's talking about abductions, and he talks about how if women were allowed to give their material right their give their material, then a lot of these abductions might not happen anymore because they're giving consent to give their reproductive material, and men too, And he speaks about
it in a way that's like we're already there. For one, which gives me a real strong gut you know no, And then the second is that you know we we should be allowed to talk about this right, women should be allowed to have a vote and discuss this. I mean, we live in a democracy, for goodness sake, We're very lucky for that. But when I hear those concepts come up, like if women and men just were giving their reproductive material, we wouldn't be in this situation anymore. I also think
that needs to be discussed, especially by women. So that's one of the things that I've been discouraged by recently on the podcast circuit when it comes up and there's no women in the room or on the podcast talking about this or addressing it, so you guys don't have to comment in it. But it's just something I see like a wave happening in the sound bites and stuff, and.
It speaking to it personally, Courtney, but I can tell you, you know, my close friend who who's an abductee, is a may But one of the things they they struggled with was intimate relationships with women, especially during certain during the women's reproductive years, because it would impact them and they would have visitations and sorry, So it is something you know
that even is in men's conscious awareness. I'm sure experiencers may have thought about that, and yeah, nobody's really talking about it.
And there's also the equation where women are introduced to beings that are supposed to be their children. I haven't heard a lot of cases of men being introduced to those children and it doesn't go well, and it's almost
treated like an experiment. And can you imagine, like I don't have this experience, but can you imagine being introduced to a child that you're not raising and that you're actually afraid of and may have somewhat scary abilities but still be partly human and want you to take care of them, but not be able to express like it's so complicated, right, Imagine you're introduced to that kid and then you're like taken away.
I think that's the horror behind it. I think, honestly, I think that's the horror behind it that I have the most fear inducing like response about, you know, And I can be honest about that, that that's part of it that I've always just been the most tenuous about of all.
And Chris, you were muted, but I saw you trying to chime in on that.
No, I yeah, I can see that as being very difficult and dark, and I I, you know, I think I can understand, I guess having a little bit of that fear because after you know my recent experiences, you know, you start to think back over your life. And the one thing that I know is that I used to have reoccurring nightly paralysis and hear footsteps coming upstairs to my room and then I would black out and I don't remember anything else. And that was happening quite frequently,
and I was pretty young at that time. I was in the Navy, and but it totally left my memory. I mean, I talked about it very actively when it was happening with my husband and my family because it was scaring me, but I didn't have any connection. So now I look back, and that is something I do think about, like what you know, was something happening that I don't know about? And I think obviously there's more fear in that unknown because my husband was leaving, he
was gone. He would go to work at one in the morning at that time, so it's like me alone at home and hearing these whatsteps come up and then I black out. So I don't know if there's anything to it, but I just I think that maybe I do shut down on some of those thoughts.
Yeah, I had to give a shout out to Geraldine who did a movie about this. I think it was called The Seating. I've spoken to her before, and that's a prave move to come out and just put this out in the open, that this is an issue that some experiencers are talking about and it's a whole ball of wax that we're not actually bringing out into the
community and dealing with. Like that's traumatic and on a personal level, I did try to meditate on this, and I was kind of like given the impression that these are not children that you can nurture, like they are as needy as a human, but they can manipulate and control you and can you imagine even a human child being like that has like special telepathic abilities and can manipulate like that's a horrific it was. You're muted again, Chris.
Sorry, I'm worried about the dogs. No, Yeah, that's hard to imagine.
To be honest, I guess I would ask Danny sheehan. I mean, so he's he's saying that if we just had the ability and freedom to give our material for them, they would not abduct us. But I mean to what end? I mean, what woman is going to want to give that to them? If they're creating a hybrid race that's gonna like eventually take over the planet. You know, that's one of the theories. So I would say, how, I mean,
how is that any better? I mean, I guess you're not being violated and invaded at that point, but it's still wouldn't be like the end product would still not be okay, right is?
I mean? I'm confused why he.
Comes up in context with the agreements that we're signed.
This is the this is the context, and how it comes up, and then how how he segues into if we had, you know, the choice to give it, people would give it over He goes from the agreements that were signed with our government potentially with another with another species that you know, we're still waiting for disclosure on, and then he goes from that potential executive order that was signed that we're working with them, and so if we've been working with them, the abductions are being taken
place essentially underneath that agreement that historical you know, essentially understanding or partnership between these groups, and then that's how
abductions are made possible. So then he talks about if we were to change this and disclosure happens and those agreements are made public and people understand what's been going on, then he goes into well, then we could have potentially, you know, people possibly giving their reproductive material in order to prevent abduction style harvesting or gathering of reproductive material. So that's how he kind of strings it together in context like that, and in a sense you could see, okay, yeah,
well that would make sense. But my problem with it is that we need to get through, essentially, if that is to happen, a truth and reconciliation process with our own government about the fact that it's happened in the first place, and then we should be able to decide rather than just proposing that as a potential alternative without even you know, discussing that. Especially with the people who have been harmed by this program.
I have to say there are people who would do it one hundred percent that is correct. Like I was watching a documentary recently about some guy who has an enormous amount of children because he was cheating the system. I think it was in Norway, going around to different places to have and not charging. By the way, he wanted to have like hundreds of children for some reason. So there are people who would do it. And I'm thinking also of the lady and independence say who went
on the roof with a sign. You know, she probably would have volunteered too, But that was a movie and in reality, that's not what's happening right now. People aren't being asked and it's not voluntary. And I think of a story in Artise six Killer Clerk's investigations where she asked people what happened to them, and one lady said she had to talk to these entities and say I don't want to do this, but they kind of made a deal with her and said, well stop when you're
like twenty five. But it wasn't like we're stopping now when you don't want to do it. We're going to keep going, you know. And and Whitley strike. Streeper also talked about how damaging it was for him when that particular aspect was part of his experience, like he's mortified that people made fun of what happened to him. It was not voluntary. So I'm going to switch gears if if I can. I'm going to talk about my labs.
Not an easier topic, by the way, but I just before I throw this around for us to chat about this, and want to bring up two things. One that some of these experiences with people who appear to be tressed as soldiers indicate that these soldiers may not actually be conscious when they're participating in this, so they may not be the villains. They may actually also be victims because there's stories about people seeing soldiers lined up and they are in a trance, so it's not just they're coming
in and grabbing people. They're completely not aware of what's happening. And then the second piece was Rick Doody mentioned in the documentary that he did that some of these quote abductions are actually happening to fake people out, they're not actual abductions. So both things are happening in addition to, you know, what other people are reporting. So let's see what people want to add to that. You want to go first, Ariel, which is randomly picking.
I mean, I would not be surprised to find out that, like you said, that they were under some sort of trant, some sort of drug, some sort of manipulation, that they too were a victim. I mean, I just I mean, just thinking about like about a month ago, my daughter slept walk and she slept, walked all the way downstairs, and she had no idea the next morning, you know, but she was in control to an extent, but she didn't know what she was doing at the time, and
she couldn't remember. So, I mean, I just don't think that would be very hard to replicate.
But I do.
I think that's I think that's interesting and important to consider as something that could be going on.
So I'm glad you brought that up.
Chris, you want to go next.
Yeah, I haven't heard too much about the program specifically. I know my understanding is that these are usually typically abductees, right, and then the military somehow comes back and also abducts them and then tests them to see what or whatever they're doing. I'm assuming testing them and obviously under some sort of covert operation. I don't really know of anyone.
I haven't really spoken to anyone who's had that experience, but I have spoken to people who have had definite like intimidation tactics by the military after being, you know, an abductee, of following, tracking, other things like that. So it wouldn't surprise me that it's going on.
Isn't that what Carla Turner spoke about. Do you know? She was an abduction researcher, and.
I think she spoke a lot about the military involvement, and I think she said something like she felt like the military involvement and what they did to her and her family was worse than the abductions themselves.
Well, Chris, I think you were there for this. I think we were in the room together down at Contact in the desert and we were there. Were you there for the women's panel because I thought I saw you? Okay, Well, Yvonne Smith talked about this, and she said that she's seeing a recent phenomenon in her practice where she's noticing a lot more abductions recently, even in the in the
last few months. And so there is this idea, you know, out in the community that abductions used to happen in the seventies, you know, and hit a peak and then you know, waaned. But she said that's not the case, that she's seeing a lot more. So I'm not you know, like commenting on the first question, but I'm wondering, deb like, has anybody heard what Yvonne because she says she has a new hypothesis about this. Has anybody heard what her new hypothesis is? Or is that too new of a research area.
I don't think she even mentioned it to me when I spoke to her. I know it's too new.
No, But I think, you know, just tying in some of these loose pieces on abductions, like the missing for one one, and I mean, I just you know, Native American women, I just feel like there's got to be a tie in to to where they're going. How is nobody reporting them missing? How are they just I just don't understand some of these missing person cases. And it does make me think that there's and I don't know if it's government or you know Nhi, but there's some sort of connection. I think.
My sister's always constantly reminding seven thousand people missing in national parks every year.
Yeah, it's it's ridiculous if you go to the number. Yeah, if you go look at a missing person's page, it's extremely depressing. It's like all ages. You know, it's clearly not just you know, obviously there's some cases that involve human trafficking, but would they take people who are a certain age and beyond for human trafficking? Like, that's not what's happening to them, right, It's just excessive, and you know,
it gets into really dark things. So I'm trying to switch gears again because I don't want us to go there too much. I don't even want to talk about it. But Report thirteen keeps going through my head. Why isn't that one out in the public yet? You know from blue Book? Have you guys heard about that?
Oh? Tell us, Oh.
It's supposedly if you look at the sequence with blue Book, fourteen is the one that's out in public, And then you go back, you see you know, one, two, three, four, whatever, But thirteen's missing, And I'm like, that's not like when they used to make elevators and being superstitious, Right, it's missing for a reason. There's a rumor and some people have said they've seen it, that it goes into really dark things that have happened to humans, and that it may eventually come out.
Oh wow, were you suspecting deb along with that rumor with the other rumor that we heard that some classified Project Blue Book files might come out in the declassification through the through the archiving process or is that separate it?
Maybe? And maybe that's where thirteen is right and super classified because if you guys have read Rubolt's book, he said that some files he couldn't even process, they couldn't even investigate, they took them from him. He also said that others that involved you know, entities often got tossed in the trash, that they didn't want to talk about it, that they he definitely didn't really get to investigate a lot of those, right. So yeah, it's it's pretty much
a trend. You notice in looking at Foya's Blue Book that that's minimized.
Wow, I think it's ongoing. I mean, I know you guys know this, but you know, at the Soul Symposium that was one of the things that was told to Whitley Streeper because he wanted to be able to talk right about his experience and being an experiencer and being someone in this field for so long raising awareness about these topics, and he was just told, look, it's not palatable for DC. We're not even bringing up experience or issues. And so it's ongoing, right, I mean, it's we're still
experiencing this moratorium on ex experience or issues. But I think that's really where the battle is at, to be honest, is the human encounters.
I think it's also something Courtney and I have worked on before, is just trying to prepare people for this reality because you know, at some point in time, like I still know people who do not believe that there could be life on other planets, Like they cannot wrap their brain around that. And there's people who don't understand that we're already hybrid humans. And I'm not talking about
necessarily an hi. I'm saying we have multiple types of humanoids in our blood right now, and like they can't understand that we used to coexist next to other intelligent beings, Like there's this huge ego thing they like they just can't grasp it. Like you see people resisting AI intelligence and it freaks them out if it like the AI looks human, you know, so I can't imagine. So that's something we're concerned about too. It's just getting everyone on board and ready.
And how do you do that. It's like this impossible task of like I don't even know, because I mean, I you know, I talk about it obviously regularly, and I have family members, you know, Mom, they'll talk to me about this. I don't and the things you mentioned, and you know, going through the walls and you know, female issues, those are all the things that scare her
as as they should. And so but but then what do I say, Because in a weird way, I do feel that some of my experiences were positive, not necessarily, like I didn't have an encounter with a being and I didn't have, you know, anything traumatic like that happened
to me. So I can't speak like other people, but I feel like the process that happened to me as a result of the sightings and as a result of my encounters, the change in my consciousness and the shift in like how I see the world, and that is the part that I think I value out of the whole thing, even though it was very painful going through it, There's something about it I value, I think, so it's kind of hard not to talk about it, right.
I feel like I'm thinking about David Grush talking about like this huge styop that has happened with us, right, Like is a society and you see it all the time. Here's an example. My dad used to work at the Pentagon, So I asked him, Hey, Dad, can you tell me about those underground bases. I'm just curious. And it's like, of course we have underground bases. And then he said, we have to stop talking about this. You're going to
ruin your career. Like he has never said that this is real, like, of course, not right, but he has definitely said this is career ending conversations. And then ten fifteen minutes later, my sister was talking about a ghost tour and he was all in on that conversation. That's a weird psychology thing. What about the conversation we just had outside about UFOs. Why is that a career ending conversation? But we're cool with ghosts, Like everyone's cool with ghost tours, right,
that's a public thing. If we had like Melinda Leslie's tour everywhere in every town, like we have ghost tours would be cool.
Probably, I'm thinking of turning my Montana property into the Montana UFO Ranch, basically because Melinda was like, anybody can do this. But I just want to say this before we move on. Devin, correct me if I'm wrong, But I remember us having a conversation about how your dad kind of came around, didn't he, or he's at least willing to be more open about it with you, wasn't he like down the line.
Give me a UFO book, which frankly gave me a UFO book that was him coming around. The rest of my family still treats it kind of like a joke. They just give me alien gifts. They don't know that I actually appreciate them, and I decorate my house with some of them, but they aren't taking it seriously. And they're so interested in NASA and all of that. It's fascinating to me that they're not open to this idea.
So there's a weird psychology. And another example of this weird psychology that I can't get over is someone is always very very credible, like everyone's respecting them and have great esteem for them until they talk about this topic and then suddenly all of that credibility apparently disappears. And it's so weird to me. So what do you guys think about this psyop weird psychology movie manipulation that also happens thanks to the CIA, et cetera, that we're all dealing with.
I when you said weird psychology, I think this is one of the things that we should mention. And I hope I'm not taking it off topic. But one of the things that I've found the most fascinating is talking to an abductee and and to talking to like Travis Walton.
I sat down with him for like an hour at one of the conferences, and one of the things that I do find fascinating is this idea of the initial trauma of the situation, but the later endearment that is built and again maybe that is manipulation that that could be some curious what your guys thoughts on that? And also but so there's this weird psychology thing, I mean, is it what's that that that syndrome called when somebody abducts you and you you know Stockholm Center. I mean,
could it be that could it be. I mean, because they'll legitimately tell you they even appreciate the experience. But the thing that traumatizes them now is the stigma and the public response and the military response. So I'm just curious about that. Sorry.
Yeah, I agree, because if we didn't respond that way, and if we let these people talk and it wasn't snickers in the audience or snickers by someone talking to them, it would not be traumatic. And actually that is what I've done with some of my clients. I just let them talk and then we move on. They tell me about experiences that they have, and a lot of them are kids, and they just talk about them. I don't tell them about my interests, I don't tell them my
point of view. I just let them talk, and then five minutes later we're talking about a video game or something. It's not traumatic at that point if you just let them speak. But the snickers, the stigma, Yeah, it continues. Ariel What did you Courtney? What did you want to say?
I just wanted to say that I was just watching this morning. I saw something on ex about Elon Musk's patient who had the neuralink and he was talking to Chris Cuomo and he's into UFOs and UAPs, and so he was talking about his perspective on it, what's happening, and don't you know, Chris Cuomo comes out and says, well, look, you know, there are some people that I can't exactly what he said, but he threw in the little green Man.
He had to do it. He threw the little Green Man into the into the narration, and I thought, man, we're beyond that, Like, just leave the little man green Man behind, or the tinfoil hats or whatever stigmafied stigmafying thing you're you're gonna say next. And I wish we could just drop all that now. And I think that just shows us we're not there yet. That's that's all I wanted to say about the OP. You know, it's been very effective, very effective.
Yeah, l.
I yeah, I find I find that very interesting because in in the context of like personal conversations with family and friends, it's like people can kind.
Of, you know, be more open to it.
Like I feel like I don't get the snickers, I get more just the kind of like, oh that's that's nice. That's nice. So that's interesting, that's nice, and then move on. I don't get like you're weird or you know.
Any of that.
But when it comes to media, we still have these news anchors just pushing the stigma, like you said, throwing in the tinfoil hat comments and the green little men comments, and it just it drives me crazy because I just don't know if that's representative of what's going on in people's like personal conversations.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, And you know what, I'm just gonna say this, like I did this. I started from a point of research and just reading the investigations that were happening, Like the Army has a PDF that a lot of people don't read. It was fascinating. That was like real life movie stuff right there. They went all over to Germany trying to figure out if the Germans were doing the flying saucers that were being reported, and it was right after
Kenneth Arnold sighting, and they took it really seriously. There was like page after page of all these things that they did to investigate, and I'm like, that's serious stuff. That's not joking. Stuff like that was manpower and money and woman power going out there trying to figure out what was going on. And those stories are being missed.
They're missing them because they're not paying attention. Another one that's fascinating was that someone who worked for the US Air Force tried desperately in the fifties to have the public know more about this topic. And she wrote to people talking about the US Air Force wants to come out and open to the public information about this topic. And guess who stopped them. Guess who stopped the US
Air Force? It was the CIA. Just real stuff that happened, and the media is missing it because they're making jokes. There was also stuff that scandals about people lying and politicians and you know, things the politicians were doing with their money, which was really interesting. Actually, there was a whole article about someone who worked for a senator and senators that created conventions like they spent their money on that.
It was pell by the way, who did that. In part he wasn't the only one, I think like Rockefeller and some other people were involved. But you know, these are really interesting, real things that happened, and people just want to make jokes and it leads down to like, oh, seriously,
bad things that people did. I found out about Japan and MacArthur and we made a deal to cover up the experiments that they did on people that were horrific, and that's a real thing that happened, and the media never reports on that, and they just made that deal so that we could get the data from it and let all those people off the hook. So yeah, Courtney, I could tell you wanted to chime in, go ahead.
No, we only have a couple of minutes left, and so I want to make sure we give enough time because I have some comments to say in the goodbye part, so I'll go ahead and pass it back to you.
Okay, Well, I guess since we do have to wrap up, if you would like, could you please tell us what's going to happen in the future with your show, because I'm sure people are going to want to chime in.
Go ahead, Chris, gotcha.
Well, we're just plugging along, just doing what we're doing. We try and have a show every couple of weeks, you know, and depending on schedules and things. So we just dropped an episode today with the Ancient Enigma Files, and it was a really fun episode to actually talk a lot about Christianity, religion, some beliefs that he holds on, you know, just different theories. It was it was a
really good, uh full topic. And then we have I have I think Joel is going to come on in August, and we have another deep dive we're going to do at the end of August. So we're going to bring on actually a couple of brothers is what I understand, and they are going to deep dive a case with us, so that'll be fun. And then we have some really cool step in September. So Ariel's got in on a
really big name on simulation theory. So I don't even know why I'm going to be on the show just to listen because I probably can't even have a dialogue.
It's going to be fun.
You need to start searching for Mendela effects in your life so that you can ask your ask your host about your Mendela effect experience.
Oh thank you for that tip.
Do you want to get that? Do you want to give the address of our YouTube channel you're meeting?
I think Truly has put it in the chat at least once.
Oh perfect, Yeah, it's I always get confused. It's the elephant in the room for one one. I don't remember if it's elephant in the room for one one on YouTube and you can find Ariel and myself on x most of the time. That's pretty much where we're at, and Ariels on Instagram, so she'll post some updates and things there. Yeah. So we're just kind of taking it easy and slow and doing it at our own pace as I'm going to school and Ariels going to be busy in this fall as well.
So yeah, but thank you so much for having us on. I have been wanting to meet the both of you for so long. Now I'm just getting to, you know, put faces and voices with names and just kind of getting to know your personalities. This has just been so much fun. So just really appreciate it.
Well. I will say before Courtney gets to say goodbye that I think we're going to need a part two at some point because I am thinking we need to talk more about women in this community and some of the issues that we're looking at, because it isn't a topic that is addressed nearly enough. I can tell you there are some podcasts that I stopped watching because I never saw them interview a woman ever. And there's plenty
of women doing this work behind the scenes. Besides the people like Sheehan, there were women working with him and for not seeing them. So yeah, definitely should talk about that some more in the future. Your turn, Courtney with you got Chris.
I just want to say, and you probably don't remember this, but I have a really good memory when you came into the Mothership, the women's research group that we did so all the women in the field who were available could highlight their work. One of the things that deb and I noticed was that it really quickly got into experience or issues. It was like we had a couple of people come in share their work, you know, do their introduction, and then it was like heavy with experience
or issues. And so I just want to say this to you because it's something that I remember. One of the participants was a husband who had experiences that didn't believe in his wife experiences and then he did eventually, and he was really struggling with that, and you know, I remember kind of addressing it but then moving on to the next person for time, and I just want to say that you really addressed his issues, you know, and gave him a lot of positive feedback and support,
and I wanted to thank you for that. And I know that you're not like an experience or support person or you know, not running the groups or anything. But I really I saw that in you. I thought, wow, that's remarkable that she took the time to address this person's real feelings and offered support and help and even said there's a lot of great people in this community that will help you. So I learned from that, and that was just you being present and aware and you know,
really listening to what was needed and providing it. So I've followed you guys since and all your work, and I just want to say keep doing the good work. I love that you guys are on Twitter and you don't get into the Twitter wars. You're very balanced and even and and Ariel, that's what I wanted to say
to you. You seem to be able to stay out of the fray and keep it classy, and I really like that about you, you know, but you continue to do good work, So both of you, I just I regard you very highly and keep up all the good work that you're doing in the field. It makes a difference.
Thank you so much. That was really nice for you to notice.
Thank you so much, and thank you from myself as well. I think that some Pe people probably really appreciated this conversation today and the fact that we touched on some things that maybe don't regularly get touched on and should be. And I'm hoping that more people will go check out your channel and absorb all the information that you have, including some presentations. I saw that there are some presentations. People come prepare to your channel with presentation. So thank
you again from all of us. I have thank you for writing in the cab today and to everyone who came to listen, thank you and have a wonderful, wonderful night.
Oh love you ladies. Thank you so much, appreciate you.
Bye.