- Welcome to Franklin Covey C-Suite conversations. My name is Patrick Ledon and I have the honor of being your host in the C-Suite. Each week I have the opportunity to sit down and talk to a senior leader to learn about their life, their work, and their career, all with one end in mind. To help you on your journey.
I'm joined today by Norma Kamali. For the last 57 years she has built an iconic fashion brand based on designs like the sleeping bag coat and designs, like the bathing suit that Farrah Faucet wore in the iconic poster, as well as impacts that she's had in e-commerce and other areas in fashion.
And our conversation today, we'll talk about her philosophy when it comes to business and life, and she'll share some wisdom with you that will help you focus on your purpose and the legacy you're building. Trust me, you're gonna wanna grab something to write with, sit back and take some notes as we have a conversation, a C-suite conversation. Norma Kamali, thanks so much for joining me today for a C-Suite conversation. - Hello. Thank you. - Thanks so much for joining me.
I'm excited about our conversation. I, I wouldn't, if you don't mind, would you share a little bit of your background, because I bet a lot of people are like, I know that name. Or like I said to you before we got started, I said, I told, I asked my wife last night, do you know who Norma Kamal is? And she said, absolutely, I do. Don't mess up the podcast. But not everybody knows your name or knows that much about you. Would you tell us a little bit about your journey?
- Well, I started 57 years ago bringing clothes from London and eventually designing my own clothes and then really fully immersing myself in the industry. I have never had a partner or investors, so what I thought was a creative life that wouldn't be involved in business turned out to be a creative life that is fully immersed in business and that I actually enjoy that side of it. It's a different kind of challenge than the creative side.
I, I feel that the experience of going through as many decades, almost six decades, five decades for sure, a lot changes. And you have to be adaptable and enjoy change and enjoy new challenges. I love being creative. I am very grateful that I have a creative life, but there are many interests that I've had along the way and still have. I'm fully immersed in technology. I love it. I'm obsessed with it. Actually, my first out of fashion school, believe it or not, was at an airline.
I decided that I really wanted to travel before I made a commitment to a profession. And I got a job at Northwest Airlines in the middle, mid sixties. And as you can imagine, it was sort of like Google or Apple or, or a technology company that was servicing the public. And the airlines were very much in the middle of that. And I had no office skills whatsoever.
And I found myself, I don't know how I got the job, but I found myself sitting at a UNIVAC computer and I had early training on what that meant and the advantages of seeing what computers could actually do just made such an impression. So in the mid nineties when I was hearing that you could have your own website, I of course jumped very early into it. And I think there were six other people that were looking at websites. So there were seven of us maybe.
And I finally, that sort of grew into understanding that I could use that more and learning more. I was very involved in VR and AR and QR codes. And then in the, about eight years ago, I was in Abu Dhabi, which is a place where there is full immersion into AI and technology. They're very advanced and they're heavily involved. And I was invited to meet with some scientists who had done research on a collection I did for Walmart for three years.
And it was a collection that was a wardrobe at a very good price, but the wardrobe was very well thought out, and it was a a, a very beautifully made by the way, well thought out collection of clothes that could carry you through any point in your life for any occasion. And so they wanted to download my brain and I said, well, I guess I'm complimented, I'm not sure, but on the plane home, I said, no way.
So, but then I thought about the fact that I've been in business so long, I have this archive now that's 57 years, and how would I want to use that for the preservation of the brand going forward beyond me? - Hmm. - And so I, as fate would have it, the universe literally put me together with one of two people in New York who were putting together.
And this is recently putting together specialized custom programs and a program that I would want where I would have an IP protected space just for my archive that I could use to design Norma Kamali and that other people could be trained to design Norma Kamali. And I thought at, at earlier on that I needed to a course and understanding exactly what AI was about so that my ideas would be in sync with what the reality was. And I also wanted to learn how to really write a good prompt.
So I took a course at MIT, it was a a, a summer course, a short summer course. But it was very challenging for a fashion designer, especially with all these technicians and engineers in the class. It was humbling. It took me a little longer than everyone else. And I was hoping no one there knew anything about fashion so that I could make a fool of myself quietly. I did come away with a lot of information and I learned a lot.
And it has been incredibly helpful for coming up with new ideas, for using my archive and using ai. And so I've integrated it into the business and I'm doing more and more experimentation. There's a very creative side of it that is just so exciting. That's sort of a mix between technology, art, and fashion.
And I believe the train left the station, and if you haven't gotten on it, it is really important to decide how quickly you can do that, because people that do not accept the fact that AI and technology are real in the future will feel very alone and isolated. And I, I liken it to being in a town in northern China where they don't speak, where you don't speak the same language, you've never eaten the food, you've never seen anything, you don't know any of the, and you really feel disconnected.
And I think that could happen if people don't decide to figure out what AI is to them, learn about it. Take some courses, do whatever you can to see how either you integrated in your business or integrated in your life. So that's where I am today.
- So take me back to the, in the sixties when you were initially working at Northwest Airlines and then you got into the fashion industry, and you mentioned like, I wanted to work my creative side more, but there's kind of this, I dunno, tell me if you see it differently, but there's, there's definitely this general thinking out there, I guess, that oh, you have the technology side and then you have the creative side, and those two people don't typically mix that well,
but you have been able to be creative and, and exploit or put to work technology. Were you, were you kind of wired that way? Did you grow up and and you were encouraged to like pay attention to the new advancements? How did you kind of start to figure that out? - No, no. I I just, you know, I'm a great believer in the universe and, and the reason I got the job at the airline was because my first job interview after FIT was horrific. I walked into, I had a very good portfolio.
I was very well prepared for this interview. And the interviewer had his feet up on his desk and he's eating a tuna sandwich. And he tells me to put my portfolio down and turn around for him. Hmm. And I just ran out of his office crying, thinking, I can't work in a place like this. I, this is not for me. I need to see what's going on in the world.
And because of my desire to travel and getting a job at an airline so I could do it for $29 round trip for four years, mind you, to London in the middle of the sixties. So the universe put that guy there to make me leave, to protect me from getting into something that probably would've been very claustrophobic. And what happened was, because of that, doors opened.
And, and I often say to people, when something really horrific happens, it's there to stop you from doing something you shouldn't be doing. Don't look at it as my life is falling apart, poor me, everything's going wrong. When it's really horrible, it means just stop and make it a u-turn. Do something else because that's not what you should be doing. And so I'm very grateful to this man because he, he is the reason I explored traveling.
I explored London in the sixties and realized that I could be a designer and that I could do that. The sixties fashion designs were very different from what was happening before, which was more mad men style. And then sitting at a computer when nobody else even knew what I was talking about. When I, I didn't even tell people because it was something you couldn't even explain to, to most people.
Well, I'm, I'm looking at this computer and it's telling me the wheel on the plane fell off and that something hap you know, all, all of this information. And, and it was so exciting and I never forgot it. So it wasn't that I was wired for it. I got wired by just my life experience of just going with the flow and not resisting and trying to do something that clearly there was a big stop sign, don't enter. This will not be good for you.
And, and so I don't think there was any, anything that, or my mother certain, I mean, how would she even think about technology or anyone in my family? And even in the way I grew up, you know, I grew up in the fifties and early sixties. I mean, we were playing in the street in New York City. This was, you know, it definitely wasn't about technology. - Oh, that's, yeah. - We didn't even have, we didn't even have telephones. How's that? We didn't have telephones.
Only a few people in the neighborhood had a telephone. I mean, is that not, it's crazy, but a lot has happened in, in the time I've been alive. - Yeah. I mean now, now everybody has a telephone and you can't help people don't even look at each other half the time. 'cause they have their face too many buried in their telephone. - Yeah. Too many. - So, you know, I, I love hearing that story and that backstory of kind of how you got into the space.
And, and like you said there, you said, well, if, you know, if there's a stop sign, maybe you need to turn around or go in a different direction. What advice do you have for people? Because as I told you on the front end, we were just chatting that there's a lot of people listening to this podcast who may be interested in like, what's happening in this C-suite.
Or maybe they're in the C-suite and they're looking for some insights, but there's people throughout their entire career journey or just life journey who are listening into our conversation. What would you tell folks when they're, when, when the light is flashing at them or the stop signs in front of them and it says, you know, turn around or go in a different direction. And sometimes we feel it, but we don't act on it.
What, what do you, what have you learned about the necessity or willingness to act on it that might be helpful to somebody who's kind of right at that intersection? - You know, I think it's something everybody can relate to is it's being in a relationship too long unless it's yours, which actually has worked.
So you don't, you don't count in this example, but in, in it, when you're in something too long or you're doing something that's not right and it sort of eating away at you, it's, it's only harmful. It's really harmful and it's a signal that it's going to get worse and it's gonna be uncomfortable. So why not be uncomfortable in a new opportunity? And then maybe something can happen from that that could really lift you and be very exciting.
So I think the fear and the challenge of the unknown is the, the thing most people have to decide they're not gonna let scare them. And just like me taking that course at MITI mean, I can't even begin to tell you how I was like, oh my God, Norma, what are you doing? And everybody, there were 250 students from all around the world, and everybody was, was supposed to read other people's papers and look at other people's tests. And I was like, oh my God, that cannot be true.
And, and so you just have to surrender and get through it. And I'm so glad I did. I can't say that it was, it felt good for a while there, but when I finally left and it took me longer, I really understood all of the possibilities that I was hoping would happen could happen and more. And so I think doing things you haven't done before is something a habit you should get into. And what I hear often here is, well, Norma, I've never done that before.
You want me to do this? I've, I have no idea how to do it. Well, the answer is, well, I haven't either. I haven't done it before. And I think the brain just expands when you do that, when you do things you haven't done before. And the fear of it is part of it, but it shouldn't cripple you. It should, it, it should obviously, you know, make you be at attention. But it shouldn't stop you. - You know, you, you work in a pretty tough industry.
I think we would agree. It's a, it's a, it's a tough industry to survive and thrive in. You know, by, by definition trends change, fashion changes, there's always looking forwards the lowest co you know, price point we can get to in order to produce a product or bring it to market. And fast fashion, I mean, just all that going on in your space, how have you managed to have 57 years building an iconic brand in such a tough industry?
- I think determination, really cherishing having a, a creative life. So learning as much as I could to how to survive in it. I certainly made tons of mistakes. And the, the business is one that creates expansion and shrinkage, expansion and shrinkage. So through the years I've expanded and then I've shrunk and expanded and shrunk. And right now in the fashion industry, in, in the US especially, it's a very difficult time.
Two major retailers are not paying people, and the result is gonna be disastrous for people who are very entwined into the companies and how much is owed to them could either close their companies, cripple them or put them in debt to have to help pay it off. And so it's a time like this where when the big accounts, the big retailers go outta business or create the chaos like this, that, that companies fold or businesses shrink.
So the fashion industry, not just because of trends, but also because of the way the industry operates now, it's really doing a lot of things in a lot of old fashioned ways. And those ways have to change. And the universe is coming and doing some ugly stuff to say, wait a minute, you are not going to get paid. What are you going to do about it? Right. How are you gonna react to it? So a lot of, a lot of businesses are having to deal with that right now.
And obviously if you can't pay people, you have to shrink your company. You have to, your budgets have to be reduced. You have to do things to survive. So through the years, I, I've learned how to look at every penny in the company if I have to look at saving money in different places, unfortunately, letting people go when you, you don't wanna ever do that. And then there are other times where it's, it's a different kind of business.
During C-O-V-I-D-I, you know, I had no idea how we would survive or anybody. And it turned out that it was, worked very well for us. The way we had structured the company was very complimentary to how to survive because we build a real base in e-commerce. And so e-commerce really was a survival type of distribution during covid. And as a result, we restructured the company to be the way it is now, which is much more efficient.
And what very global and, and the distribution is, is is really diverse and healthier for the company to have balance in the kind of stores you sell to. - You know, as you were going through that, and I was hearing a lot of different leadership kind of lessons and things that I would oftentimes hear people talk to me about or I've read about certainly, and I jotted a few of them down. So forgive me as I kind of read back through them.
But as you were talking, you were talking a little bit about, you said determination, you know, the critical point to be able to persist through things. You talked about flexibility and adaptability and the ability to pivot your business and fiscal responsibility and diversifying your distribution channels.
But one thing you mentioned that particularly jumped out at me, and I'd love to kind of dig into this a little bit, you said cherishing the creativity of it, and it made me think about gratitude and how important it is to be grateful from your perspective, whether you're starting something new or you've been running something global forever.
I mean, how important is it in your mind for you as a leader to be grateful and for all of us to be grateful for the opportunity to cherish what we're working on? - Oh, it, it's incredible. It's what, it's what inspires determination. It's what inspires, oh, it, it also helped me define my purpose in, in this industry, there are many designers that I've seen come into the industry with the goal of being rich and famous, and they reached that goal. But sometimes it's not long lasting.
And there are the, there are compromises also. So many designers want big companies with deep pockets to, to, to pay for everything and to be responsible for the upside and the downside. And in doing that, they compromise the kind of things they wanna do creatively. So there are people determining more of what you do and how you do it. So I've had opportunities through the years to have deep pockets build the business out for me.
But then I realized I really would not have the final say about what my designs would be like, or the aesthetics of the company. Even though partners and investors say, we want you to be exactly like you until something doesn't sell, then they become the experts and, and that creative freedom is now in the hands of somebody else. So I, the fear of that has always kept me on my toes to try to find solutions to protect the business, look at ways to look at finances and creative in a balance.
So it depends on your goal. So for me, I chose a creative life over rich and famous. I'm famous enough, you know, my friends know me, my husband knows me. I'm good. I, I'm, I'm enough. It, it says I don't need more of it. In fact, it's not what I desire. I'm not rich, but I certainly have a comfortable life. I I have what is if, if important, there are things that are important.
When I turn 50, I gave up all of my possessions because I realized I was gain gathering too many possessions, and they were too important. Me. And if they were, if the possessions were safe and everything was okay with them, was really a big concern of mine. And I thought, no, that can't be your life. So at 50, I literally sold, gave away. I had a big auction, I had 20,000 samples that I just sold off, and lots of other designers bought them.
And so ever since then, I have a minimal lifestyle and anybody can come into my house, my apartment, and steal whatever they want because it's not, there's nothing of value except my husband and my dog. And so I, the truth is it's so free to think, you know, the TVs are not great TVs. They're okay. The, and that's the most valuable. I think probably the TVs are more, more valuable than anything else. So I really, and I love, I love that, I love a minimal life. I love the way it looks.
It's very aesthetically beautiful for me. But, but I'm not encumbered by things. So being rich is, is therefore I, I wanna be rich to be comfortable. That's a, and I wanna be rich in how I feel about people and, and not things - That's so insightful. I, I appreciate you sharing that. You were, as you were talking about your, like discovering your purpose and kind of legacy components.
I was thinking through the research I was doing prior to this call and I was like, okay, the sleeping bag coat certainly known for creating that. And I think everybody probably recognizes one. If you don't Google it, you'll know exactly what it is. Innovations in e-commerce with certain, certainly things within the industry, people would be aware of the iconic photo of Farrah Faucet and the swimsuit. You design that swimsuit from what I understand.
So there's a lot of things that are kind of your, your marks, if you will. They may may not be the ones you point to to say those are the ones, but there's certainly things that kind of put you on the radar for folks. But when you think about your legacy, you know, what do you want your, what do you want to be remembered for? - Well, you know, I haven't done it yet. I, I feel like I am, I'm going to do what I wanna be remembered for, but I don't think I've done it yet.
And I, I I, I think a lot about what an incredible time this is where anything I, I can't remember a time that is exciting and the, the future is right in front of us, ready to be taken and ready to be explored. And so because of that, I try to live a healthy lifestyle so that I can be here a while to be involved in it. And I have a lot of ideas about what that is.
So when you ask me that, I feel like those are the ideas that are gonna have a different kind of meaning than maybe fashion, than maybe what I'm doing now. Even though this is, this will be a part of it in some ways, but I feel inspired to think about basically, is there a way I can change the world? Is there a way I can affect people's lives? And maybe it is through fashion or design, but I, I think there may be other options.
And that's why technology is, is so exciting to me. You - Know, I love that sentiment. I, I I'm inspired by you sharing that, you know, the idea of like, it's al it's still in front of me and this times are really exciting and I don't even know what it is right now, but there's something I could do that'll impact people's lives. I mean, I think if everybody could take away that message from the conversation, that would be tremendous.
As we, as we wrap up our conversation, if you think about Norma, the various people listening, different goals in life, different legacies, they're trying to build, different career paths, different industries, different, you know, steps along the way, whatever that means. What would you say would be one piece of advice that you could just give any random person listening to this? Do you know, that's just good advice. What would you say to them? - I think authenticity is a big one.
When I was in the sixth grade, my, my teacher wrote in my graduation book Know thyself. And I never knew what it meant until a few years later when I realized that that was such a wise commentary in my book. And, and to really know what you believe in who you are and, and being true to it.
Not trying to follow what other people are doing, except it's somebody who, if it's somebody who's doing something really fantastic for people or doing things that change people's lives in a good way and having the inspiration from that to do more yourself, but basically the authentic self is always going to be the best. Being something other than the authentic self is never good enough. It's always, it's always secondary. So I think just know thyself and be authentic about - It.
What smart words she wrote in your book all those years ago. It's, it's, it's, it's interesting. Yes, as you were saying that, you know, the authentic self, I, I'm a big advocate that, that the idea that we're always writing our story and you know, some days we, we might jot down a whole paragraph 'cause we had some massive breakthrough that day that kind of plays into our full story. Some days we might dot an I across a t that's for people who still use pens to write, you know, a keystroke.
And then, but then the, the reality is that there's a lot of people who aren't really holding the pen themselves. They've given it over to somebody else, or they're trying to like read out somebody else's story and live it. And I think that's a really quick path if you're trying to live about somebody else's life for them or letting somebody else own your pen for you.
It's a really quick path to frustration, anger, bitterness, difficulty, regret, and, you know, all of these things we, we don't wanna see. And you mentioned earlier, you know, determination, the importance of purpose and determination. And if you aren't really authentic and owning your authentic story, it's really hard to persist through the difficult times.
- Yeah, I think the other thing to think about is there are so many really talented people who have so much to offer, but they're so afraid of making a mistake or being wrong that they, they hold back and they don't do what they should be doing. And you can, if you can't make a mistake and learn from it, you can't grow. So a lot of people stop growing because of the fear of being wrong or making a mistake.
And, and I think the, the, the, the act of being wrong and recognizing it and then correcting it and acknowledging you made a mistake and it was a bad mistake from that, you've learned the following and you're going to do the following. You're gonna get up, wipe yourself off, recover, and find course correct. I know a very successful person who early in his career made huge, huge, very, very public mistake that was beyond humiliation.
And he soul searched and he really meditated, studied humility, became involved in a lot of Japanese cultural things and took the time to read and learn more about himself. And in that process, he is transformed into a hugely successful but kind and generous human being who is extraordinary and, and impacts the world with what he does. And I think about his journey and how most people would've just, I don't know, just given up or said, I, I'm just, I'm a loser.
I'm not. But he's taken his life and turned it around in such a way that so many people benefit. So many people will benefit for years to come and not even recognize what his journey was. And so that's a really great example of how that big, big public experience corrected it. He, he corrected it and he rethought in, in his humility, rethought his purpose and how he was gonna proceed.
So failure and I, that was an extreme example, but failures happen all the time and they won't, they won't happen unless you take a chance. And you're lucky if you have a failure and you learn from it because then you grow tremendously. It's just a given. It's painful, but it doesn't have to last a long time if you figure it out as soon as you can.
- Well, you talked about living a rich life and obviously there's a monetary measurements people use, but when you think about richness and wisdom and willing to learn and grow and develop and share insights, I mean, you are one of the richest people, people we've ever had on this podcast, for sure. Thank you for sharing all that wisdom with us and insights and that's gonna make all of our lives richer. - Oh, that was very kind. Thank you so much. And thank you for inviting me.
- Our pleasure. - Thank you, Patrick. - Well, folks, that's all I have for today's episode. Thanks to Norma Kamali for joining me for a C-Suite conversation. I truly cherish the words that she shared and the insights she provided, and I hope that you do as well. That's all I have for today. Thanks so much for joining us. My name's Dr. Patrick Lyden. Now go make it a great day.