Hey there, I'm Maiki Lynch and I'm an accountant. And in this series from ACCA, I'm sitting down with some other accountants and people who work in finance to lift the lid on some of the common myths you might have fallen for about this awesome career path. This week we are looking at one of the core questions people tend to have about these jobs. Namely, isn't accounting and finance basically just maths? Do you need to be a maths genius? And can you make a career in accounting
without a maths degree? Let's find out. This is By All Accounts. Ah, maths, for some of us, just the word can send a shiver down the spine, conjuring memories of school and protractors and calculators and quadratic equations and worst of all: maths tests. Then there's the opposite, the people who love maths and numbers and even have degrees in the subject. But do you need to be one of these people to progress
in careers that involve some numbers like accounting? For me, I'm one of those people that has always enjoyed maths. I found if I really understood what I was trying to do with practice, I didn't need to remember anything at all, and that's brilliant. In over 10 years of teaching, I found it is exactly that practice element that can get those students who love maths and those who haven't touched the subject in years to where they need to be,
mathematically speaking, through their accountancy studies. So I found two people who currently work in accounting and finance to ask, do you need a maths degree to enjoy these jobs? First up, Kyle Simpson, welcome.
Thank you. Thank you for having me here.
And Ben Kewin. Hello.
Hello. Thanks for having us.
So what do you think? Kyle, I'm going to come to you first. Do you need to be amazing at maths to work in accounting and finance?
I don't think so because I'm just exactly opposite of amazing at math. If I look back at my school days, I never liked particularly math. My school grades were kind of reflective of that, and when I was studying accountancy I didn't really feel that there was a overall huge area where you need very technical math skills like plus, minus, multiply, divide. That's kind of the basic principles I had, but that got me through all the exams I needed to pass
to be qualified. So I don't really think it's essential to have extensive maths knowledge to become an accountant.
That's really encouraging to hear, particularly for those who perhaps maths isn't their favorite subject. Ben, can we come to you with the same question? Do you think you need to be amazing at maths to work in accounting and finance?
So I'm quite the opposite to Kyle there of... I was always into my maths in school. When I started doing my accounting exams, I always thought that there was quite a big maths implication on it. I was actually quite upset by the time I came to qualify, because there's not really that much complicated maths in there! So I think that that is very much one of the things that all the way throughout everyone's always like, " Oh, you've got
to do loads of maths. It's very maths based." You deal with a lot of numbers, but it's more about the trends and the patterns and the numbers than it is with actually messing around with them and doing complicated maths.
So coming from a different viewpoint there, but you're kind of landing in the same place, a similar conclusion that there isn't too much maths. There is some maths and it is helpful, but there's, there's not perhaps too much or as you may have expected going in from the outset. Kyle, I'd like to come back to you. Can we ask what your job is?
I'm currently working as a finance manager at an all- through school in Northumberland. I work with one finance officer, but basically responsible for everything to do with school finance, financial reporting, all the way to petty cash expense claim,
those more sort of administrative tasks. It just involves day- to- day school life, plus a bit of technical finance skills as in when I need to do sort of reportings, but it also has allowed managerial tasks to run the scope from business perspective while principals are focused on education side of it.
That's quite a lot of numbers for someone who admitted from the outset that numbers weren't really their bag, if you will! Do you have a maths degree?
I don't have any degree. Well, actually I dropped out of high school, which is equivalent secondary school in the UK, and I took an exam to be equivalent of high school graduate. So as a formal education, that's my final education. And in that, the pass mark was 50 for each subject and maximum score is 100, and on average I got something like 88. 5 across all subjects, on average. But there was one subject that brought the score down, that was math, and I got 50 out of 100 and that was
just literally passing mark. But I managed to start accountancy training and become qualified two years ago.
Congratulations. You were able to start that accountancy training without having a degree or without having another qualification to get you there?
Yes, there was a slightly different pathway when I started. Effectively, it's exactly the same training as if you start the full ACCA qualification. But for those people who didn't have sort of entry qualification, so effectively, even though it was slightly different way around, I could start my ACCA journey without any more formal qualification.
I love that and I'm aware of that as well, that we are one of the professions where you can come in without having a degree and you can still move through and get that chartered status, but you build that foundation without that being a degree or without that being A levels. Ben, I want to come back to you and just ask you a very similar question. Can you tell me about your job? What do you do, where do you work?
So currently I work at Crowe Isle of Man. I'm a Client Accountant. So we get books in, do a lot of debits and credits, lots of bank recs. When you obviously get your big clients do their bookkeeping as well on the side. We deal with quite a lot of trusts, quite a lot of big companies as well.
Most of the stuff that we do is normally Isle of Man based, which is normally a lot of investments, but then also there's quite a lot of stuff going on in the UK.
Lovely. You talked about loving maths. Do you have a maths degree? What's your background, your relationship with maths?
So I did maths for the maths and physics as my A- levels, and then when it came to going to uni, I went to university to do a degree in maths and physics. I lasted for three weeks and then dropped out of uni. Then I started as a trainee auditor, did that for a bit then for multiple reasons, mainly that I wasn't mature enough to be working, I left. I went to then go do a second degree. This one was in accountancy, but it was on the Isle of Man where we
don't have a specific university. We've got a college which is then linked to the University of Chester. I was there for a year. Then COVID hit. So from that I then dropped out of that as well and that's when I then started doing my ACCA training. So...
Wow.
I've not dropped out of one, but I've dropped out of two uni degrees and then I've still ended up becoming fully qualified.
Okay. So you are fully qualified, you are a chartered accountant as well.
Yeah.
Congratulations. I think that really shows that career paths are not just linear. They're not just go to university, get that degree. When you finished, when you got that text message or that email that said, " You've finished the qualification, you've passed all of your exams," how did you feel?
It was brill! It was really nice to know that you've reached the end and there's a point whereby you never actually have to do anything again. If you did want to continue doing more qualifications and everything, you could do, but it would be entirely your call. However, having that ACCA stamp after your name just opened so many doors. Having that means that you are set and you're going to at least always have a comfortable life and you
never have to really worry about getting a job. It was a really satisfying text to receive.
And I want to come back over here please for me, Kyle, and just ask you a similar question about when you got to the end of your studies, how did you feel?
I think it took a while for me. I mean I immediately realized I did pass and it was very exciting, but to actually feel it in my day- to- day life it took a while, because at that time I was juggling a lot of things. I was buying a new house. My daughter was newly born, moved to Newcastle. At that time I was working as an IT Auditor at one of the big four firms, so the work was quite busy as well. And doing the last professional stage papers
while doing all of that. And it was really probably the most difficult time of my life. And then I was so relieved, one side excited, one side, relieved, but at the same time it's quite hard to believe I finally did it. So it took me a while for a few weeks, and then I thought, I looked back and I realized actually I did pass, everything's done and I've finished. And as Ben said, I can now do whatever I want to do. It was definitely good, the best moment of my life.
Oh, that's so fantastic to hear. It really is. Just want to take you to that journey. So you're saying you're working as an IT auditor, you're moving, you've got your baby, you've got a lot going on, maths also in the mix there. How did you find studying for maths, particularly as you're moving towards the latter stages of the qualification as someone who didn't have an initial love for maths, how did you find the maths within your studies?
I think if I use the example of our last stage exams, like the strategic level papers, I see one was business study and the other was financial reporting. And I didn't feel like there was a lot of maths involved in those two. And I feel like the only paper that really required a bit more advanced maths knowledge was the advanced financial management. But even then I could
kind of teach myself by searching on Google. It wasn't like a university level of maths, it was probably somewhere around the secondary school level of maths. I happen to not study as far as some other students might have
done because I dropped out of school. So for a lot of other students it might be still within the limit of what they studied at school, but even if it's not, I think it was not that complex enough that you could just learn as you go.
So just touching on some of what you've said there, what skills do you feel have turned out to be most important to you working as an accountant?
One is professional skepticism. We, I think, hear about this a lot in audit paper. But I think as an accountant in this kind of time when the technology is changing really fast and the business process is changing every year by year, we see a lot of ways that we've done things that worked in the past, but maybe
not quite the best way of doing going forward. And by exercising professional skepticism like this, having mindset of always double checking are constructively challenging, whether it's the best way or not, that kind of provide opportunity for development, whether it's for the accountant like personal development or whether it's for that workplace, the company. So that's I think one
of the key skills. And in line with that then if things are changing, if I've asked the question, is it the best way? If it's not, what's the way forward? And if we know what's the way forward, then the adaptability to be able to learn. And I think we
have this requirement for continuing professional development. So in line with that as well, we need to just constantly accept the new things so that we are able to utilize the technologies and different way of doing things that's available as we progress in our career and year by year.
I love to hear an auditor to talk about professional skepticism. That rings true, and I think auditors will be very happy to hear that too. And I just want to ask about your career. Do you feel your career has turned out as you expected?
Yes, in terms of direction, it did. I did have the idea of studying accountancy and I decided that when I left Korean Navy I did some navigation sort of things and that had nothing to do with getting a job on land. So when I left that job, I just started from scratch and I met my wife back in South Korea. So when she wanted to come back here, I need to decide what am I going to do to make living? And then I looked at what sort of things can I do without a degree, without much
saving to start with. And that's where I saw accounting as the way forward, because I looked at other professions and quite a few of them had barriers to entry and accounting was one of the very few that didn't have barriers to entry. And I also felt that accounting is kind of a core of any sort of organization, whether if they're profit- making or not, or government... well without money, nothing really runs.
So to me it gave me the idea that if I choose to go become an accountant, I can start as an accountant, and there are so many other pathways that's available. And whether if it's technical accounting like audit or tax or some other ways, or more leaning towards management if you are more interested in that side of business. So I think I'm heading towards where I wanted to be. I'm still exploring what's my next step of my career, but it's going toward the right direction and I'm really happy that
I could do that. The reason why I moved from more private sector to public sector was as an accountant, I feel like once you're qualified, we can reasonably have a financially comfortable starting point as a newly qualified accountant. So that means that from that point onwards, you could either choose to do what you are doing at that sort of newly qualified level or you could go all
the way up. But for me, because I spent so much time studying, I wanted to kind of adapt into that level of new life and focus on something that's a bit more meaningful. So something that I can give back, which is why I thought possibly going into education sector, particularly in the public sector and education, that is something that what I do, I can see what difference I
do make in my workplaces. And also volunteering for this... ACCA has this early career ambassador, so the promoting thing, those sort of things, I feel like I can give something back. So that's why I think it's really good that I have those choices.
It's exciting to hear you talking about the next step. Coming back to you, Ben, has it turned out as you expected?
If you asked me when I was 18? No, it's very different to what I expected. I did expect to go do a degree in math and physics, then probably go on, do a master's, potentially a doctorate, go on that route. Even then when I came back, accountancy was always my plan B because both my parents were accountants, so it's in my blood. So it was always something that was
always on the table. And so when I came back in and started that, but then I was an audit, I'm not an auditor, I did not enjoy that side of it. So then even then I still wanted to end up being an accountant, but I decided to start taking a different route towards it that then didn't turn out. And
then I started again doing accountancy. But where I was working, I was essentially training up to end up being a teacher to then start training people to be accountants as well. I then didn't like the idea of standing up in front of a classroom and teaching. So after I qualified, that's when I then went more into the private sector and doing people's accounts instead.
Working with clients. Lovely. What's your favorite bit?
My favorite part about everything that I've done is the helping people side of it. So when I was working at the place where I qualified, all the students would always come to us and they'd ask us for help. And being able to sit down with someone and go, " Right, I see that you're stressing out about something. Here's the way that you get around it. This is how we
can help." And being able to put other people at ease and help people, that's always been my favorite bit throughout everything. I've always been quite a social person so that being able to comfort someone and be able to make someone feel better in themselves, that was always my favorite side of it.
So just to bring it back to the topic of maths, do you think you need a maths degree to work in accounting and finance?
Oh, not at all. No. Without a doubt, no.
Kyle?
Not at all. I agree.
No? And if you could give advice to someone who's considering working in accounting and finance, considering that as their career path, what would that advice be?
If it's someone who's in school, I'd say, whilst you can make sure that you get out there, try and get some work experience, get a feel for what it's actually like to do the job, to see how it is, see if it is something that you like. And if it is something that you get started on it
as soon as you can. The sooner you start it, the sooner you finish it, the sooner you finish it, the sooner that all those doors open up and you can crack on with the rest of your life, well, in such a brilliant way.
Kyle, any thoughts?
Yeah, absolutely agree. I think work experience, the most important thing to start with, and especially because there are different pathways available. Where possible, I would encourage younger student to look out for a lot of pathways that's available, especially with the graduate scheme or apprenticeship and that sort of thing. Depending on which area of accounting you start from, it might take some time to be able to switch
to something else. It's always possible to switch between different roles in terms of accounting, but it's always better to know where you're walking into and then know that you'll be reasonably happy with why you can't 100% tell until you actually start a job.
I think that's such great advice from both of you, getting that experience and just a bit of exposure to what the work might entail I think is really key. That's it from this episode of By All Accounts. Thank you Kyle and Ben for chatting with me today. For a link to watch the video version of this podcast, check out the show notes. With skills in accountancy and finance, you can work in any business anywhere and turn your passion into an exciting and rewarding career with an ACCA qualification.
You can sign up to find out more by heading to accaglobal. com/ beyouanywhere. That link is also in the show notes. See you next week. I'm Maiki Lynch and this has been, By All Accounts. By All Accounts is a Fresh Air Production for ACCA. Its Lead Producer is Eva Higginbotham and its Executive Producer is Annie Day, with support from Sarah Moore. Yohan Forbes is the Videographer.