You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Hello, it's your host, Claire Stevens, jumping into your ears to tell you why this episode of But Are You Happy? Sounds a little bit different. It's because we recorded it live at south By Southwest, Sydney in October. I was joined by Olympic gold medalist no Ami Fox, and I interviewed her in
front of a live audience. But I didn't want any of you to miss out on hearing this episode, which is why we've released it for you to listen to enjoy.
Welcome to But Are You Happy?
The podcast that asked the questions you've always wanted to know from the people who appear to have it all. I'm your host, Claire Stevens, and I'm joined by Olympic gold medalist and widely adored athlete no Amy Fox. Usually we would get straight into the show, but I wanted to give just a little explanation of what but Are You Happy? Is about for anybody who is coming across
it for the first time. So it's not an original idea to say that Culturally, we're sold a little bit of a lie about happiness, that achievement brings it, that being really, really ridiculously good looking might bring it, that money might bring it, That finding your life's passion is definitely going to bring it, that being famous or being applauded or winning a gold medal might bring it, and that if you strive and strive and do your best and get the thing, then you will be able to
look around, it will be completely uncomplicated and you will feel deliriously happy. But deep down we know that humans are far more complicated than that. I think this lie is pedled even further now that we live in this image based culture and we're all absorbing the shiny parts of other people's lives. Things like birthdays and wedding days and travel and winning gold medals are reduced to two dimensional images of smiling faces instead of being felt as
the really complex emotional experiences that they are. The problem is that then our expectations get really unrealistic, and we get to certain moments in our lives and we feel like we're not feeling what we're meant to feel. So on this show, I ask people like no Amy about success and failure and vulnerability and jealousy and times the world told her she'd be happy and she wasn't, And together we unravel the illusion that anyone's emotional reality is uncomplicated.
So with that, no Amy, I want to start by asking you whether you grew up in a happy household.
I feel like I've never been asked that question before, but yes, definitely. I think like any childhood, there's ups and downs. I think, you know, it wasn't always happy, happy, happy, and I do think I definitely felt you know, sad or angry or frustrated a lot of the time, especially you know, growing up straight away with a sister that just excelled in every single department.
But overall, definitely a happy household.
I think, you know, I feel extremely lucky and grateful to have been instilled really great values of you know, hard work, discipline. Both my parents from the start. You know, they didn't push kayaking onto us. I think they let us discover all these different sports, but we also got drilled into the lesson of getting back into the boat or back on the horse when things didn't go well, or finishing a term of dance even if I hated it.
So there was definitely you know a.
Lot of yeah, that sort of hard work, discipline, but also so much enjoyment and you know, freedom growing up in Australia.
But I was born in France and I.
Moved to Australia at the age of two for the Sydney two thousand Olympics. My parents were both involved in that, and I think they just loved Australia, you know, the freedom that lifestyle brought, how big and green the places were, the fact that we could walk to school undisturbed and safely, and so yeah, I think there was so much happiness and that sort of childhood, but also going back to
France every year and being with my grandparents. But yeah, I think, you know, it was also quite hard growing up in Australia without extended family, and that's something that you know, I reflect on now as I'm getting older and maybe thinking about starting a family. But yeah, definitely so much happiness and hard work, commitment, freedom of expression and yeah, so it was a good, very lucky childhood.
Do you feel like France and Australia are culturally different when it comes to happiness, Like when you spend time in France versus when you spend time in Australia, do you feel like there's a different ethos.
Towards that emotion a little bit. I think Australia's kind of like you're doing great mentality. And I loved school in Australia because I felt like I was doing a great job. In France, I did a few terms and they'd rip out my paper because I didn't write in the right cursive handwriting, or I did a few spelling mistakes. So also, you know, the schools, they were indoors and we would do school from eight am until six pm with a two.
Hour lunch break.
And then in Australia you do nine am until three pm and you run home and then you can play outside or do swimming, do kayaking, do running. So I think, you know, today, I do think that life is kind of easier in Australia.
I think it's easy to be happier.
There's a lot more like dialogue and open dialogue around mental health and awareness there. In France, I think there's still that sort of you know, work hard, be the last one to leave the office, and a bit more of like the yeah, I don't know. I think it's much easier to express yourself freely and not feel as judged maybe in Australia, know the French, they like to judge.
So what was.
Your dynamic like with Jess when you were growing up, like she's a couple of years older. Did you feel I also have a sister Jess who It's funny your sister Jess was topp to the state in a subject and was ducks.
So was my sister Jess.
So I feel like I understand a part of you, a very small part of you, not the Olympic part. But what was that dynamic like as you're growing up and I guess your benchmark for success is just so bizarrely just the outlier, Like what's that like?
Yeah? I think growing up we were great companions, you know. I think we traveled a lot with my parents that were both involved in the sport, and my mum she would just leave us two together by the river and we occupy ourselves and I don't really.
Know what we did, but we always, you know, had each other.
And I think my mum she was an only child, and so she really wanted to make sure that we were friends forever. And that's something that she's really been aware of. Also my dad as well, he's in this picture. But you know, I think being an only child, she really wanted to make sure that we were together no matter what. And that's something that's kind of been reinforced as it got a little bit more competitive and with only one spot at the Olympics. And that's also something
we're both very aware of. So our relationship is something that is incredibly valuable to both of us, and we both know that sport is kind of leading, but you know, life is hopefully a very long journey that we can share together. But growing up, I, as you know, the younger sibling, I think I tried to, you know, steal her clothes or things I still do now, but like, you know, be a little bit, I don't know, try
to edge her on. And she was so and still is like calm and just like the type of person that when you realize you keep egging them on and they don't give you anything, you just stop annoying them, like come on.
I know.
Like, So we didn't fight really, like obviously there were moments where you'd have, like, you know, a few arguments, but I really think it was quite a chill childhood and relationship even in high school because she's such a chill person that eventually, I you know, like I just gave up and started, you know, having a happy relationship
with her. And then yeah, then you know, I think in high school she started to become really good at kayaking, and she won the world championships and I was there, and and then she did like HC topped the state in what was it, PHP and then got a ninety nine point one a task. I was like, oh god, double world champion, senior world champion, nine nine point one ATA great. I'm just gonna be the disappointment. There's no
I can't do better than that, you know. So I think that period of my life, you know, when I did the HC, I there was that like I need to beat her in something, and I did in one one self check, And yeah, I think there was always that, you know, comparison, and even in sport, and then definitely in sport, so we also nearly did the same degree, and I'm glad there was like a difference there, but yeah,
there was a lot of comparison. And we all know that comparison is the thief of joy, but it's also inevitable and it's inescapable sometimes as well, so definitely hard kind of having such a huge, you know, like benchmark, but also being in the same industry. It's not like I then went on to do medicine and taekwondo. You know, I was in the same industry and also doing the
same sport. So it's yeah, an inevitable comparison. But also, you know, Jess is so likable that I never felt that sort of jealousy or envy, and she has always been so supportive for my career and my goals. And even though sometimes you're like, well, it's so degrading because you're like, oh, good job, that's amazing, and it's nothing compared to what you've achieved.
But I'll never forget.
We were at the New South Wales and Street of Sports Awards and the person who spoke they said it was for the world championship medalists and they said, you know, you start out by being the best in your household, you're the best in the street, and then in the state and then in the country. And I looked to my psychologist who was there with me, and I was.
Like, I'm still on level one.
Yeah, so you know I think, yeah, definitely growing up with that sort of comparison was hard, but it was also growing up with that benchmark of you know, success, that benchmark of being able to compare myself every day to the.
Best in the world. And while there were so many traps and.
Demons that came with that, there was also so much growth and good that came from that, and that helped me, you know, get to where.
I am today.
It's something that I think you notice that I notice it as a sibling, that the media kind of laughs about, but I think that there can be some real pain there when you feel.
Kind of overshadowed in your own family.
But what I find really interesting I did a deep dive after your win, and there's all this research about younger siblings being, like in sport, being incredibly incredibly successful. And when you think about it, in you know, there's the Williams sisters, there's Kate and Bronte Campbell, there's something about that younger sibling having to wait and having to be patient that genuinely does result in a very spectacular
type of excellence. What do you think that is, like, what is that mindset that clearly by waiting for your turn, it actually makes you brilliant in a completely different way, like like what do you think that is?
I think it comes down to a lot of things.
For me, it was exactly that, you know, I've been waiting for my moment for such a long time, and part of me thought that I'd never get that moment, I'd never get that opportunity.
I'd always be the.
One person in my family that wasn't an Olympian, that never like made it. And so, you know, you get the jokes like you said of oh my god, what's it like being the only person that's never made it to the Olympics in your family, and you're like, ah, great, Like what do you think you know? Like so yeah, definitely,
you know you laugh it out. But I think it was something I kind of came to terms with but didn't didn't completely, you know, extinct wish the fire of that dream of getting to the Olympics, but it was always one spot. And when Kaye Cross came to the Olympic program, it was finally an opportunity for me to get a qualifying spot. And I think it was that it was waiting for such a long time to get that moment that when it came, I was like clinging onto it, and I was like, I'm not going to
let this go easily. And I think, you know, in addition to all of that, it's also the mindset of I think, you know, not having your self worth and your identity just tied up in the sport because otherwise you're just completely and just constantly crushed because you have an older sister that's always successful. So it's understanding that there's more to life than just sport and trying to
develop yourself in different ways. And so I did two degrees, did my undergrad then did a master's because in the period of finishing my undergrad and my masters, I was like, oh my god, I'm just an athlete. That's really scary, and I don't know if I just want to be
just an athlete. And I learned that I actually am more successful in my sport when I have that sense of balance, you know, that sense of purpose that when I go to work they think of me as such a cool athlete, but then in the kayaking community, I'm the one with the real girl, big job, you know. So there was that sort of sense of balance and purpose that came from that, and I think that really fueled me. So yeah, when that opportunity came, it was
really like, finally my moment. I'm not going to let this get away very easily. And I think in the games, that sort of media attention and the expectations of oh, you're going to be like your sister, You're going to win. I think for me, I'd already done so much work in you know, canceling out the expectations the noise, and for me, I was so driven to like be here and proud that I'd made it, that my goals and like my own internal dialogue was out trumping like everything
in the media. So yeah, I think there was a lot of mindset, mental prep that came with, you know, kind of building that resilient mindset so to handle all the expectations to know why I'm there, to know that you know, I'm also I've had the hardest selection out of pretty much any other athlete, so.
I'm worthy of being here.
I have what it takes to do well, and yeah, I'm not going to let my moment, my turn, finally go easily.
Do you feel like because you'd been exposed to what success looked like in the lead up to that, like once you qualify for the Games. Well, even before you left Australia and you didn't know if you were going to qualify, do you visualize, like, do you visualize that moment of winning? Is that a thing?
Yeah, it's a thing, and it's something you don't really talk about because you I don't know. I think I was kind of embarrassed of telling people that I would dream of winning the Olympics because it's such a hard thing to do that. I really mentally prepared myself for I guess disappointment as well, and I was okay with the disappointment. But I had a really hard qualification race in Prague, and in September we had to put in a strategy in place to to really, you know, focus
on getting to the Olympics. And so for eight months, visualization was a huge part of my strategy and I would visualize that race, the rounds, and the finish line of qualifying to the Olympic Games. And I feel like I sound so wooy when I say this, but I really feel like I manifested so much of that result, even to the point that you know, I was thinking about, you know, what's the worst case scenario of being up against you know, who are the worst.
Athletes that would really destabilize me.
And then I ended up in that exact heat that I was like, Okay, I think I'm really strong mentally.
I need to stop manifesting this.
But so when I qualified, I really like wrote down everything to make sure that it wasn't just luck and you know manifestation. It was also you know, hard work paying off at the right time, this incredible focus and resiliency, and yeah, that carried me through to Paris, that sort of same focus. And and there's a funny story. We have like a track suit and then we have a podium tracksuit. And when we were the week of the
competition and just was up first. I was a week later, and the day before her race, we were neighbors, so I went into her room and I saw that she had her podium track suit hanging up so she could see it every single day. And I was like, oh, that's such a good idea.
And then after she.
Won, I actually and when it was the day before my race, I got my podium tracksuit out and I tried it on and I hung it up and I was like, you know, I just wanted to feel what it was like wearing that. But there was a lot of visualization about winning, mainly in Prague, and I think that was my qualification race in June, and then for the Olympics there wasn't I didn't visualize winning. I didn't
even visualize you know, the podium. I think I had a completely different visualization process, and it was on the actual process. You know. It was visualizing the crowd because normally we compete maybe max. One thousand people are watching. Here there was fifteen thousand people. The noise was something, the adrenaline was something, so you know, visualizing this time,
not the heats. I didn't want to manifest being next to some really tough people, but you know, the media manifested Jess and I so.
And yeah.
So there was a different sort of visualization, but it was definitely a key.
Part of the whole process.
You say a lot that, especially like leading up to the Olympics, you were process driven.
What does that mean.
I think it's so easy to get carried away and just think about the result. Especially in kyae cross and ki cross, you have so many different rounds. It's not like in sylom where you have one race and you've got to deliver your perfect race.
In kite cross, you.
Have the time trial, then you have round one, then you have Heat one, and then you have the quarter final, semi five, and final. So it's so easy to kind of get carried away and think, Okay, if I get top two, then I'm going to be in this and then I might be up against this person, and then all I need to do is beat that person and
then I'm in the final. So it's really easy to get carried away, and also to think compared to slalom, where you know, if your level is top ten, then you should make the final and you can hope for a top ten finish. In kaya cross, you can be one of the best in the world and be knocked out in the top thirty two. That's what happened to Jess, and I think it was a testament to the level of the women that were competing. It was an incredibly hard field and so I was, you know, I had
made the Olympics. I didn't want to get carried away by the expectation of winning, or there was an inherent fear of being eliminated first. That was definitely there, but I didn't want to, you know, be consumed by that. So something that really helped me throughout the whole competition was just I had, like, you know, my little journal kind of like Nicola the high jumper, and always you know, just focusing on the process, what I needed to to do,
how I felt, really reflecting on the facts. I think it's so easily like you can just get carried away by thinking of that, you know, the self doubt, the imposter syndrome, the result. But you know, reminding myself of my previous results that you know, I had, what it I have, what it takes to be here, and really doing that positive reinforcement to stay in the moment and then focus on what I need to do before getting on that ramp, and then what I need.
To do up until the first gate.
So yeah, really staying in the moment and doing you know, having little cues that kind of help you get in that moment. But yeah, it's very easy to get carried away and think of the result and the Olympics essentially you see the one percent of the success. And it was really important for me to be be prepared to have a disappointment but also enjoy the whole Olympic Games experience. There's so much more to the games than just that end result and just the certificate you get that says
your place at the end of the the campaign. And so because it was so hard for me to get there, because I never thought I would make an Olympics, I wanted my experience to be defined by more than.
Just my results.
So I signed up to all the activities. I you know, did the opening ceremony, lived and breathed the magic of the Olympics. When it was jess as race, I let myself be carried away as a sister and as a teammate and to you know, live the wins, not just to step out. I didn't want to be too emotionally invested, but you know, I ended up being very emotionally invested and very drained and exhausted.
But your batteries recharged quickly because I can imagine, like.
You could obsess over I think.
That that idea of sticking with the facts is really applicable to anyone because you can totally psych yourself out. And I've listened to you talk about your sport and the fact that in order like even in order to compete, you sort of have to go over it, like it's in Europe, and so you could psych yourself out and be like, well, all these people have the course in their backyard and I have to fly over here, Like you could completely lose your mind, and clearly you don't.
Do you have a performance coach or a mindset coach?
Yeah? I had a sports psychologist that I've been working with since I think it's been two years, and I think, yeah, I think it's definitely easy to get psyched out. And like you said about going overseas and people having a course in their backyard. We actually had three months of no water in Australia, so that was very hard. We had a water quality issue at our only training center
at in Penrith. Green algae blue green algae not great, our worst enemy, and so we after the selections in February, we had no water for a whole month and that was really hard because you start seeing people preparing doing training camps in Prague, where the Olympic selection was. That would kind of give me anxiety when I'd open my phone and see people doing training camps there, or training
camps with other athletes as well. Like I just had Jess and one other under twenty three guy who was really great to train with, but other than that, there really wasn't a level that would help me train for the Olympic qualification race, and so that in itself was
easy to get psycked out on. And then we went overseas in March to do a training camp with the British girls and the French girls, which was great, but then came back and no water until we left overseas, so there were lots of little I guess hurdles that we had to go over that definitely can make it really hard to.
Swallow I guess.
And then yeah, back in September as well, having to give up my World championships to remain eligible to qualify for the race in June. There was a very messy period in September because the rules that were written there were a lot of Yeah, it was basically a policy that was very confusing for everyone and had a lot of loopholes and traps, and I was a victim of those loopholes and traps, and so that was a very
frustrating period. But then yeah, the mindset coach and my whole performance staff, they really helped me switch that narrative as well, and see well you actually have an opportunity to go to the Olympic Games, you know, so we have to do everything we.
Can to see those opportunities.
So this whole, I guess past year there's been a lot of you know, changing the narrative to see the positive and seize the opportunities. And and you know, those hurdles, they make you stronger, a lot of flatwater, you know that that's great for our sprint and our starting sprint, and that's something that definitely helped me.
At the Olympic Games.
I had the fastest start out of everyone, So I think I was, you know, racing to do my best, and that was still my strategy at the Olympics, you know, race at your potential. But for that race and Prague and then afterwards for the Olympic Games, it was, you know, race to win and race to do your best. And it didn't feel irrational, like it felt very rational, you know, to dream that big and to go for it in
that sense. So yeah, I think a lot of mindset coaching and positive reinforcement and you know, changing the narrative and seizing the opportunities. I really see this past journey as like a story of overcoming the noise, the self doubt and really seizing the opportunity and being so driven that nothing can get in your way.
Yeah. I find that so fascinating because there's so many different ways to look at a situation. And from the outside, when you won, it seemed like the most perfect. It seems like everything had been logically leading up to that moment. But I can imagine there are many times throughout the process where it feels like there are things completely against you. When you think back to the race, now, what do you you see, Like, what's the what's the moment.
In the race.
I'm sure everybody here has watched the race, maybe multiple times. What's the moment in the race that is the most vivid to you when you think about it.
I actually had to rewatch the race a few times because it kind of all feels like a blur, even though it was four days of racing, so it's a lot of days of racing, a lot of races, and yet it kind of just all feels like this one race, and I think the moment that really sticks out to me.
I guess they're true, the one that I feel most vividly that I you know, remembered that I was in the moment was before the final, and I had a moment with my coach, who he's very again process driven and come and I think that's exactly what you need for the Olympic Games, you know, really centers down and focuses on our little cues, our little protocols, what we have to do. But right before the final, he was broke character and he was like we made it, like
go out and enjoy it, you know. And I think that kind of not unsettled me, but brought me out of that process and really made me be in the moment. And when I walked up with my kayak, everyone was getting their kayaks held by the volunteers, but I would always carry mine and I think it kind of just helped me, like, you know, really get ready for the race. And when we were on the ramp, there was a French girl with me, so she really amped up the crowd.
You know, they were so excited to have her. But when they called my name, they also really cheered for me. And I knew my friends were in the crowd and they would always play music and they played ulavou by Abba and you know, you're kind.
Of like vibing to that show.
But I think that's one of the moments that just really sticks out to me because it was pure, like I think, enjoyment, like I really felt I'm meant to be here, you know, like I made for this moment, Whereas when I was watching the slalom, I really feel like being alone in those blocks with everyone watching you, waiting the countdown and then having that bit of stretch of water to get into.
Your race would have really freaked me out.
And here I see like this kite Cross moment, and I was so calm, so ready, so excited, and I really do think that, you know, I realized that I've always been made for kaya cross as opposed to slalom, and my success in slalom was kind of because of that environment, not being able to ever make it, not being able to put the perfect rundown, and then being in this Kita Cross environment, I feel like I really thrived and was able to you know, express myself and
achieve those results. So sometimes that change of environment, you know, really helps. But yeah, so there's that moment on the ramp, and then there's also the last upstream, which for me in the final kind of defines my whole Olympic campaign, and that's being leading but not even thinking I'm gonna win, like really just leading and focusing on the next gates.
And then in the last upstream, knowing that Kimberly Woods from gb was behind me and that she'd go to attack me because she's one of the strongest paddlers, and she tries to attack and overtake me in the last up but I do I think what my dad calls the up of the century, you know, And I managed to get in and out the sort of technique that you practice in training that's really hard to execute in a race, and that's really hard to execute after six
rounds of racing when you're really tired. And for me, that sort of I guess really summarizes and beautifully wraps up my Olympic campaign of being so focused and being able to pull out my potential when it mattered, and the finish line isn't something that I remember as deeply. I think that was a state of shock, pure shock.
I think I nearly passed out.
After the break. I asked now Amy whether she's superstitious and how she mentally prepares for a big competition like the Olympic Games.
Are you superstitious?
Like, is there anything like just before you started or even during the race, is there anything that happens you're like, Oh, if this happens, it's a sign that blah, or I have to be wearing this thing. Like do you have kind of something that you have a superstition around.
I'm definitely superstitious.
And bringing it back to the sports psychologists who really tried to remove my high level of how superstitious I was, and to you know, I had this thing before the Games. I was like, I can't wear my mouthguard. Every time I wear my mouthguard, I lose the race. And he's like, I don't think it's the mouthguard. I'm sure you'd rather keep your teeth and wear the mouthguard. And so, you know, there was elements like that where it kind of got
a bit too carried away. But I'm definitely superstitious, and I take the signs. I take all the little, you know, cues, you know, I have the im app on my phone, the affirmations up and things like that, and I take
those cues to you know, boost me. But I definitely do like wearing the same clothes if I have a good run and I would always wear I was wearing my long sleeve CAG and you know, I got through the first day, I got through the second day, got through the third day, and on the fourth day was really hot and I was like, oh, do I wear my long sleeve CAG and sweat and be uncomfortable and be way too hot but you know it's brought me
good luck? Or do I change for a short sleeve And you know, there was a twenty minute thought process that went into that, and then I wore the short sleeve. I was like, I'm still going to do well even if I were in a short sleeve. And then there's another level and everyone's going to think I'm absolutely crazy. But in twenty twenty two, there was this woman who stopped me at the World Championships and she gave me like this little this little rock and it had this
fox drawn onto it. And I was at a really I think frustrating point in my career and felt very nervous for those World Championships. I really wanted to make the final and I felt like I needed like an extra push, and so I put the rock in my sports rock and I made the final, and I was like, wow, you know.
This rock has super Woman is amazing.
Anyway, I care for that rock and I had it with me in Prague and I wore it in Prague and it had, like I said, the little Fox on it. And that day when I qualified, my Grandpa Fox he passed away that evening, so it was I knew he was sick, and it kind of you know, carried me through, but he found out just in time that I qualified. So that was, you know, a really moving but hard thing to process after having such a huge high and
then being hit by such a low. So when it came to Paris and Jess told this story as well, but there's a little memorial and you can collect these little rocks. So because my rock of my Fox had such a huge significance to me, I also collected one from the memorial for my other grandpa that had also passed away.
So I did the.
Final with my true little rocks and my sports rat and when I was getting ready for the quarterfinal on the final day, I realized I didn't put them in. So I went back running to the change room and my coat was like, why are you running?
What did you forget? And I didn't want to yell out, you know, my little rocks idiot.
Yeah, so I had my little rocks, had the mouthguard which didn't bring any bad luck, and I had a different short sleeve. So superstitious, but also you know, working on not being reliant on.
Like the rocks.
I think cancel out the mouthguard. I think we all know that logically, rocks cancel out mauth. God. There's something called gold medal syndrome, and it's the idea. It doesn't just apply to w Olympians, but it's it's kind of a phenomenon just in life. But it has been born out of the idea that once you win a gold medal, there can be a bit of a dip, like people can experience depression and anxiety and a bit of a
funny feeling around loss of purpose. And it's probably the transition from such a high high and being so driven towards a single goal and then achieving that and then feeling a bit empty. How has it been since the Games? Have you had any of that kind of whiplash from experiencing such an intense high.
Yeah, I had heard about it and I was like, oh, that's definitely not going to affect me. Because I'm just so happy and internally satisfied and nothing can bring me down from achieving, you know, such a huge, huge goal that's kind of indescribable. But I think, you know, I've experienced it to an extent. I think it's it's for me. It's more so been. You know, you you have the two most intense weeks of your life. Everything's new, everything's exciting.
You have no time to process. Like I said before, it's like every day is huge, and you know, I wrote in my journal every single day to kind of, you know, help on that processing side, and to also remember everything, because otherwise it's all a blur and you forget all these incredible things that you did or things
that happened. But then when I got home on that charter, I think think that was the first time I could really like whoa, you know, everything hits you and you finally have time to think about everything that you just experienced. And something I am really grateful for was that my partner was there, and because it's really and also my family obviously, but it's really hard to describe how that
experience changes you. And so when you have people that are there and experience it firsthand with you, especially my family and my partner. I think it just makes it so much easier. Otherwise you can't. You go home and you're like it changed me, but you can't you know, describe, and you know that they don't know what you experienced. So that definitely helped. And then I think, yeah, it was a lot to deal with, you know, the media, the constant like everyone I guess wanning a piece of you.
But then also the quiet time and seeing that there are other gold medalists that are doing this, this, this, and oh should I be doing that or you know. But I think for me, something that's really helped me has been having this level of I guess, maturity and experienerience before winning gold. I like I said, my identity wasn't just an athlete. So this gold medal isn't like suddenly my life is amazing. It's this huge bonus, but
it's not. I feel like I'm equipped to say not to a lot of things, or to you know, give
a perspective on a lot of things. But yeah, I think the biggest thing has been that's kind of given me a lot of anxiety has been the amount of messages I've received because it's quite overwhelming and it's amazing, but you can't reply to all of them, and there are a lot of people you don't reply to, and then you know they say, oh, you know I followed you before this, and now you've just forgotten me, or like friends that you don't reply to, and then you
just feel like a bad friend because you never got to message. So there's a lot of that that I think has been causing more anxiety than before. But otherwise I think, you know, for me, it's just the internal satisfaction of like having achieved something I never thought i'd achieve and having you know, proven to myself that I have what it takes to be remarkable and to achieve greatness and to you know, when I put my mind to something what it's incredible I can achieve essentially, so
that kind of out trumps everything. But then you know there's still the oh, like they're more interested in Jess and they're interested in me, or.
I'm still the younger sister.
Or you'll get media that you know, bring you over to do an interview after they finished with one gold medalist and they're like, oh, we'll just wait for your sister and you're like, okay, but I'm here.
Do you want me? Or should I move on?
You know?
So there's that as well, when.
The gold comes all this media attention and as you say, social media, everyone's messaging you, commenting. There's just a whole lot of attention, and I'm always interested in with that your story gets covered in a whole lot of different ways.
And as you say, the fact that you know you might still be described as Jess's sister can be incredibly infuriating, because if you're a gold medalist in your own right, is there anything else through the process of being in the media and on social media that you've found has hurt? Like I think what I find interesting is that when you're, you know, a media golden girl from the outside, you see that attention as purely positive and exciting and you must be on top of the world, but it must
also be weird because it's about you. And has there been anything that you've been a bit that you bristle at or you're a bit uncomfortable with?
Not really, I always try to like not be controversial, and so I think that's helped me a lot. But then there's that element now where I'm like but I do want to speak up about some things. But there's my you know, the inner me that's like, oh no, you'll go against you know, all your values and this is this. So I think I haven't given the media anything to like like and when I see stuff like or be the next dress Fox or Jess Fox and
her sister or you know some one. The other day I did see like a really there was a podcast on Jess and it's like Jess Fox.
They talk and they're like, oh, and your sister she also won.
And they never like name my name and things like that, And for me, I do like I brush past that, but you know, it does bite me sometimes. But I also think, you know, because my name is quite difficult to pronounce. Sometimes I'm like, it's just the name. They just don't know how to Yeah.
By the way, is there a French way to say it? Yeah? How do you say it in a pretty way.
In a nice way. The way it's meant to be said is nu And all. What I don't understand is my dad's English. So I don't know how he never thought that in English, you know, the name doesn't exist or it sounds wrong.
But he also loved it.
After the break, I ask Naomi about failure, and she gives me one of the most profound answers I've heard from a guest about how to conceptualize failure. I'm obsessed with the idea of failure and what we learn from it, and how often failure teaches us a lot more than success does. Is there a failure that sticks out to you as something that really changed the course of your
life and actually taught you a huge lesson. I think there's not like one race where I think it was a huge fail But I think where I had the most, where I struggled the most with the idea of failure was definitely in September when.
I had to give up my World Championships, because it was kind of it was the time and the place where I made that campaign public that I was going for that one of three Olympic spots and no one else had really, you know, put that forward. I think I was used to doing three categories, and when you do two categories and you miss one race, you've got the other category, and then you miss that race and
you've got the other category. So it's like, you know, you feel safe with the armor of three categories and three opportunities, and this was the first time I was fully putting myself into Kia Cross, and there was this huge fear of failure of losing my World Championships and then missing the quota and then I would have been left with nothing, and then the next World Championships was
two years away. So for me that the idea of just doing that was a big fear of failure and embarrassment as well, like, oh, how embarrassing you know she publicly went for that quota and didn't do the world and now she missed, whereas you know, I didn't do that, did the world and I made it. So there was a big battle with failure. But I think, you know, I really worked on the mindset of like, true failure isn't missing that quota and missing the target, it's never
taking the shot to do it. And that really helped me really commit to that goal and not be afraid of missing the target and not getting the quota. But there was, yeah, definitely a deep battle with that idea and fear of failure of you know, not making the Olympics and missing out and it would have been so public and I would have, you know, wasted so much of my career and my world championships and things like that.
But yeah, I really was at peace with that, and I knew that so much good would come from really committing one hundred percent to that Olympic qualification. And when it came to the night before, I was so proud of myself, I think, for having committed so much and being so you know, committed to that goal but not half hearted about it, like, oh, yeah, well if I miss, I didn't fully commit and I still have canoe and kayak, and yeah I won't get to the Games, but not
everyone gets to the games. You know. I was so committed to that goal and I had nothing to lose, And yeah, I knew that so much good would come from that process of accepting that I might miss, but that it wouldn't be a failure because there would be so much growth that came from having an Olympic opportunity and doing everything to qualify for that.
Yeah, you forget from the outside about all those tiny decisions that you actually had to sacrifice things and give things up and be incredibly intentional in order to achieve something. When you think about the rest of your life, what is it that you still want in order to have lived a happy life. Like when you think about being an old woman and looking back at a life that you think is meaningful and happy, what do you think that.
Life looks like? It's funny.
I actually had this thought the other day well, as soon as we finished the games, and it was like, gosh, these are all memories. Now it's all done, and it's all memories, and it does make it does.
I don't know.
It's hard to visualize looking back and being like, oh, yeah, I won gold forty years ago or something like that, but I think, you know, I'm incredibly ambitious and driven in different ways, and.
I've worked full time.
I've done an internship in Switzerland where I worked full time, and that was also my first.
Glimpse of life outside of sport. That was four years ago.
But it also made me realize how much I love the sport and how much the sport is a part of me. And so I do hope that I'll stay connected to the sport in some way, and I think that's definitely inevitable.
The river has a way of, you.
Know, attaching itself to you and keeping you involved and around it, and I think career wise, sporting wise, I definitely won a World Championship medal and we have the World Championships at home next year and that's definitely my big target Olympics wise. You know, I think four years is a long way away and I'm definitely at this stage set on LA but I think, you know, backing up isn't something I've thought of just yet.
I do hope that I.
Can go in slalom as well and not just in cai cross, so that will definitely be my target. But then outside of the sport, there's so much that you know, I'm excited by as well, career wise, getting back into consulting, maybe working if I'm not competing in Brisbane and always involved in sport or the Olympic committee in some way.
That's something that really excites me.
But I've worked already at the Olympics in a different capacity as a commentator, and I think I definitely want to stay involved in that way because at the end of the day, I think, you know, I realized that the Olympics is like the only place where I get to feel such incredible emotions. It it's like a drug essentially. You know, you want to be involved, even if you're
not an athlete. You want to be involved in those key moments that bring everyone together and make you feel that sense of purpose and passion and you know, feel alive essentially. And then you know there's also the personal life. You know, get married or have kids or who knows. But I think, yeah, there's so much that I still am yet to do. I realize I'm definitely in a space right now where I'm saying yes to so many
new things and discovering new things. And yesterday I was in China, for example, just got back last night, so say yes to do a little race and discover China as well, and being open to all those new opportunities that come through, and not being tied down to a job just yet because previously I've always had to work part time and work full time when in Australia, part time overseas, full time at home, and I'd say no to so many things that would pop up because I
couldn't move that meeting or because I had to be in the office. And so I'm also really enjoying this freedom that I have right now of just seeing what comes at me and being able to be free to.
Say yes to things as well.
When you think about happiness, what are your biggest challenges to it at the moment? Being where you are now, you've achieved something that is just unthinkable and must be you know, you must go to bed and be like, I still cannot believe I did that. What day to day challenges your happiness.
I think it's understanding that happiness is very fleeting as well, and it's a work in progress, and it's you know, like a little muscle that you have to work out to ensure that it stays strong and that the baseline is, you know, naturally pretty high. And I think I've done a lot of work to make sure that that baseline is naturally pretty high. And it starts with a lot of you know, gratitude and reflection, and I think I
just see the little perks of life. And compared to sometimes my teammates, I'm like, God, they're so moody, you know, like enjoy it. We're here, Like you know, whether I get my soic coffee in the morning and they've done a really cute design, like you know, that still brings me so much happiness as well. So it just because I've achieved this huge goal, like my things that make me happy. You haven't, you know, naturally gone up up
to a super high standard. I think I love I travel so much that when I'm home, I love the mundane and I love the routine. I love, you know, seeing my dog, getting coffee with friends, doing a pilates class and being able to do it the next week on the same day. You know, that's stuff that I love. And then when I get to travel, it's the excitement of you know, going back overseas, traveling with my three kayaks and hitting people in the airport. You know, it's
like there's there's joy in that. But you know, I think, like I said, it's it's a muscle that I know I need to exercise. And some days are really hard, and some days you don't understand why you're You're moody and it's not worth fighting, and it's okay. And sometimes, you know, hormones come into play as well, and sometimes the world just feels like it's crushing down. But it's knowing that there's always something to look forward to. And I do love, you know, goal setting. I've always loved
goal setting. I've always had something to look forward to, and I think for me that's so important to always.
Have a little goal.
And now that my big goal is completed, there is a bit of you know, like, oh, now what like at the end of finding Nemo, you know, like, yeah, but I've still got things I'm really looking forward to, like you know, trail running rays and going to Christmas in France and going skiing, so things like that, and then knowing the World Championships at home next year. But I know that, you know, little goals definitely helped me, you know, keep happy, stay positive, whether it's in the gym,
whether it's at home. Yeah, I think it's really a muscle that you have to keep on working. But knowing that life ebbs and flows, and there are some days that will and definitely are very challenging. But sometimes, you know, if I just hear that one song or get a pretty latte design, my mood can shift as well. So yeah, also having good people around you as well. Do you
see the sports psychologist? Is that a thing that you do ongoing when you're an athlete or do you do it just when you're competing?
It tries to be ongoing. I've ghosted sometimes, Yeah, I think we all.
Yeah, but I think I look back at the last two years and compared to say a gym coach or like a training coach, it is sometimes hard to feel like you're making progress.
It's really hard to see that tangible progress.
You know, in the gym, I can hit a PB in my weighted chin ups, you know, I can go from forty to forty five, and I'm like, wow, I'm making progress. I've got that tangible result. And then mentally, sometimes it's really hard to see that you've made progress because you might race on a bad day and everything comes crashing down as well. So I think, you know, I kind of always saw him because he's great to have a chat to.
It helps me voice things.
But I did it also because I had to do it, or because you know, he'd always be persistent and say let's catch up. So and I enjoyed his company as well, and I think that's made a big difference. It's having that sort of relationship with a psychologist where it doesn't feel clinical. It doesn't feel like every time you come you have to talk about your performance strategy, but it can be about you know, other things that might be
affecting your performance. So but now I look back and I do think that there was such a huge improvement in my mental skills, my capacity to deal with stress, my capacity to you know, handle high pressure moments and perform under pressure and perform when it mattered, and to know that you know, I'd done the work and I can deliver my best really when it counts, when everyone's watching, when fifteen thousand people are watching, in the whole of Australia is watching.
And we always end the podcast with one question. I think I know the answer, but right now, are you happy?
I'm a bit jet lagged, I'm a bit tired, but I'm definitely happy. I think, you know, like I said, there's so much more to my life and my self worth now than just my sport. And when you achieve such a huge result like this and you've got that good sense of balance and you've got you know, that perspective and you seized all the opportunities, I think you can only be so proud of what you've achieved. And I think I'm lucky to be in a position now.
I'm meeting so many different people that you know, liked the sport, watch the sport. That kind of really reminds me of the Olympics and how they watched it and that brings me so much happiness as well. And I'm also just so happy to be back in Australia and to enjoy you know, the summer that's coming up, and to be out on the water again. So yeah, I think generally I'm very happy. But you know, even after the Olympic Games, there were moments that.
I thought I'd be happy, but I was just exhausted.
And I was really tired, and I think I realized, wow, I'm not happy, But it doesn't mean that I won't be happy once I've recovered, and once I've taken the time to reflect and to stop and to celebrate and to you know, process and recover. Really, so yeah, I think I'm very proud of what I've achieved and grateful
for you know, the mindset. Grateful for the opportunity to have been on the most successful Australian Olympic team, to have shared it with my sister, with my mom, with my dad, with my partner, and with everyone back home, and to be able to yeah, enjoy that success but also have things to look forward to inside an outside of the sport.
Incredible. Well, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for everything you've shared. I really appreciate it, and I really appreciate.
Your vulnerability and openness. It means a lot.
So thank you so much to no.
No Amy, no Amy Box, thank you. Thanks.
I want to say it in the French way, but I can't. That's all we've got time for on this special episode of But Are You Happy? I like to joke that I over relate to a lot of my guests when I actually do not have a lot of relatability to them, in that I am not an Olympic athlete, for example. But when I interviewed no Amy, I was personally in the final weeks of finishing my first novel, and I cannot tell you how much I loved the
way she spoke about process and trusting the process. I feel like it's a phrase you hear so much from successful people who have achieved something incredible, and I often glaze over it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, trust the process, whatever.
But when I drilled down into what she meant and what that looked like to her, I had a real clarifying moment, and I spoke to her afterwards about the way she journaled throughout the Olympics, and I asked her questions about exactly how she did it, and she gave me examples of how she would hype herself up. And I started keeping a journal to keep me on track and keep myself motivated, and it was absolutely transformative. It's
the single most embarrassing thing in the world. I hope no one ever sees it, but I think it's a practice that stops you from psyching yourself out. And in so many moments in life, it's mindset and not ability that's our greatest barrier, and that approach of really reminding yourself what the facts are, what your goal is, can be so powerful. The executive producer of But Are You Happy?
Is Naima Brown, and the producer is Tarlie Blackman. Audio editing by Tom Lyon and I'm your host Claire Stevens. Will be back in your ears soon