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That period of my life was like extremely low and extremely like a bit of a blur, but it's so powerful, Like I feel like that was actually the turning point in my life where I built a better relationship with myself.
Hello, and welcome to But Are You Happy? The podcast that asked the questions you've always wanted to know from the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens and about six weeks ago I saw a video I haven't been able to stop thinking about. It was of twenty seven year old Australian boxer Harry Garside after he lost in the first round at the Paras Olympics. Initially,
he cried and was unable to speak. It was as though we were watching him in real time process the fact that his most vivid life goal, the one he'd spent his whole adult life working towards, was over. In nine minutes. He'd gone from an Olympic hopeful to feeling, in his words during a postmatch interview, like a failure. I didn't envision this happening, He said, I could see the gold medal in all the visualizations and it all
went wrong. With his head bowed, looking shattered, we watch Garside come to terms with the significance of this loss. The sun will come up tomorrow and whatever happens. But I just know the next few months for myself will be a pretty hard time, he said. I'm sure I'll have some dark moments and I'm fucking terrified, to be honest.
About a month after the Games, I interviewed Harry Garside about failure, about the moment he was very publicly arrested for something he didn't do, about the time he did have a medal around his neck and was shocked to find he felt empty. Harry is warm and charismatic and insightful, and ultimately he's so much more than the outcome of a boxing match, even one taking place at the Olympics. Here's Harry Garside. I want to start by asking, did
you grow up in a happy family? Was happiness prioritized in your home?
Oh, I've never been asked that question before. It's so interesting because I guess any childhood like, there's good and bad to it, right, my parents like they didn't have too much money and they were raising three boys into the Azure five and I felt distress definitely for my parents.
But we also got like a lot of opportunities, Like we spent a lot of time in the Victorian high country, like full driving or camping, and I think that was really good for my growth, like being in nature and just being very curious about the land and about things. And I'm really grateful for that. But I think just like any childhood, there's highs and lows. There's good, there's bad. And I wouldn't say that it was it was either
happy or not happy. Like it's a good question because it's like, I don't know if any human can ever fully have a happy childhood, right because and it's all it's like, if a kid did have just like a pure happy childhood, it's like, are you doing them at disservice? Because life's going to knock them down when they're an adult and they've never experienced that before. It's like, are you doing them at disservice if you don't experience the whole range of human emassions with.
Them and build some resilience from like a really young age in terms of your mum and dad. Do you feel like they are happy people? Do they struggle with happiness? Like when you were growing up and seeing your parents, did you see people who approached life with a zest and a joy or people who you think struggle to do that?
Ooh, So I feel like I take after my dad a fair bit, But then the older I get, I feel like I've probably take after both of them just
as equally. But my dad. I found many moments in my childhood where I would reflect on my dad being like their class clown or like the one at the pub, being the funny guy, but people often laughed at him, not with him, And I think he felt this need to play that character right, And I definitely felt that for a lot of my childhood as well, like I felt this need to prove myself, especially to men in my life. And I definitely see some similarities to my dad.
And it's been really beautiful to sort of see his growth as a human too. The more open that I can be about being myself, it's actually encouraged him a little bit to be that too, which has been really nice. My mom's a little bit more like like staunch and like a householdful of men. She's the only woman, and she she's the strongest one by far, Like she rules the roofs, and all the boys know that in the family, Like you don't backchat mom, like you don't disrespect mom,
like everyone knows that. And Mom's always been very staunch, which is just nice. So in that it was like she was happy, of course, singly wrong, she was herself, but also as well, she was like the leader of the roost. So it's like we didn't really want to like make her unhappy.
Or yeah, sad.
Yeah.
I want to jump forward to the recent paras Olympics. So at the end of July, your lifelong dream of winning gold at the Olympics was over in just nine minutes, and after the fire you collapsed onto the floor, and then you gave an interview directly afterwards. That struck a
lot of people. So I have a group chat with some of my closest friends, and one friend, who is a blokey bloke didn't even know he was watching the Olympics, didn't even know what he was doing, messaged us and said, holy shit, have you guys seen this interview?
And he sent it to us and.
We all talked about how refreshing and moving that vulnerability was. You said, two decades dedicated to one dream and it's over. Just like that, I feel like I've let myself down. I feel like a failure right now. I don't even know what to say. I fear for what the next couple of months look like for myself. Did you make a conscious decision in that moment to choose vulnerability rather than those default athlete answers that we get.
I've always sort of tried my best to move with authenticity and whatever comes out comes out, and I don't always live up to that. Like sometimes you do have to play like a little bit of a character, like I'm not going to lay out my deepest, darkest secrets
to people that I don't know. But it's like in that moment, I genuinely was terrified, like I have failed a number of times in my life, or I've been through like a breakup, or like my family, I've had problems, and it's like just seeing the things that I turned to in those moments, like I was genuinely terrified, like this meant so much to me, and it's almost like I felt those emotions. I went out the back where there's no cameras around, and I like, howed, I haven't
cried like that in a long time. And I think it's almost like my body just took over. It's like full and self preservation mode right now. Like I wouldn't say I'm feeling emotions too much right now, and I think there's like this little safety kind of mechanism going
on that it's like trying to protect me. And I've said when this book too is done, I'm doing a little book tour at the moment, and when I can have it a free time, I'm going to do like four or five days in nature and get the phone, put it in my car, not touch it, and just be by myself and who knows what will come up, but create the space for something to come up. And it might be happiness. It might be joy. It might
be like, oh, thank God that Olympic journey's over. Yeah, Or it might be sadness and anger and frustration with myself. I'm not sure, bro, I want to create that space.
It's interesting you said in another interview that you felt really numb, and I agree that sometimes when something really challenging happens, it's like you'll almost go into that self preservation mode, and I reckon you go into it for a while and once you come out of it, you've actually healed, but you weren't even conscious that you were healing.
How does the loss sit with you now? Like I know you said you're not kind of feeling all the emotions, but day to day are you feeling better or worse than you thought you would?
It's interesting. I think if I lost five years ago, my answer would be completely different. But I think I have really worked on my identity outside of boxing, Like my whole life, my identity was consumed with that of only being a boxer and I the win. I felt the win. I was like, yes, I'm the man. The loss, I was like, it's me. I felt like a failure. I was, And it's like, I don't know if I ever I'll ever fully break that, like I've done it
for twenty years, right. It is very much a big part of my identities or my whole identity though, but I have created something outside of that, And I also know like who I am as a person, Like boxing is what I do, it's not who I am, and I have been able to separate that and I'm really grateful for that, because I do know boxing has a shelf life and there's a funny story in the boxing world, and it's probably all industries, but there's always those fifty
year old blocks in the path who're having a few beers. Yeah. Back in my day, I was like, go on gloves champing. It's like they're still living on that moment forty years before, and I don't want to be that. Like, this is definitely the highlight of my life so far. It's taken me all around the world and I've loved it, but it's like, this won't be the highlight of my life. I want kids, I want to do more, I want experience other things like and I'm very much not attached
to that identity anymore. So that's why I think that it hasn't rocked me as hard as what I thought it would.
What do you think you learn from those moments, like that moment of striving so hard for something and realizing that there are things you can control and things you can't. What do you think you learn from feeling like you failed.
The universe stops for no one? Yeah, self, feeling sorry for yourself?
Yeah yeah.
I mentioned this in the book The Good Fight that just come out a little plug. But like I actually mentioned this in the book, and I was saying, like I think this world kind of fosters victim mentality. I don't know, it's like, of course the world sucks and it's unfair and unjust. You don't have to look too far to see those things, like in our society and then also internationally overseas we're seeing it on our phone.
But like self feeling sorry for yourself, it's like no one's coming and it's up to you always, and don't be wrong. Absolutely feel your emotions and be in pain, don't suppress them. But like I get up, like let's go on, Like it's up to you always, and of course don't be wrong. I've also got a beautiful support network, but it is always up to us, and we can sit there and complain and feel bad for ourselves. We're living in one of the greatest countries on earth with
so much opportunity. Like I always think that, like the world stops from no one keep going.
In the book, you write about doing a breath work session and you say you had a moment of realization and it was this I've spent far too long searching for happiness and external sources people, success, money, girlfriends, sex, addiction, whatever. I think everything I need is already within me. No, I know that's the case. Off the back of the paras Olympics. How easy or hard is it to remember that that happiness is always within you and it's not about the external stuff.
It's interesting because I feel like I'm getting a massive hug from all of Australia right now, which is quite nice. So it actually I am getting external something. Yeah, So I don't know if I can answer that question truthfully because it's like I'm feeling like I'm getting it's in a sense, which is a weird thing. So I also know that it is. I'd say it's fake because I feel the love, I feel that people care, and I
feel that there's a lot of people there. But it's like nothing outside yourself can ever change how you feel about yourself. And I have realized that. I think I realized that after Tokyo. So I sat with the bronze medal, which was a success. We don't do that very often in Australia, and I sat there in quarantine and had the medal on my neck, and I was looking at myself in the mirror, and I felt so unhappy. Really now, I'm like, if that's not a sign that this isn't right?
And what do we do? Our society is just this capitalist driven society where like you're fed your insecurities, You've fed these things. It's achievement based. We show all these gold medalists on the TV, and we show all these things. We prop these CEOs and these people who are probably just they might be successful in one thing, but like
they don't have a happy life outside of that. Like, I find it weird that we don't prop up like people who work in the cancer ward almost twenty four to seven, or like these people work in child hospitals or like look after the animals. Like our society is toxic and we just keep going and we don't care about it. It's a really interesting thing. I know, I'm
getting really passionate right now. And I play into that too, because like I'm an athlete, Like my life's not hard, not really doing too much for society, Like I'm not really spending my time dedicated to helping others, but like I get all these opportunities right. It's a weird thing. It's a really interesting thing to sort of grapple with.
When you got that medal from the Tokyo Olympics and you were feeling miserable, what was it? Was it stuff independent of the medal? Was it stuff just in your life?
I felt like I wasn't worthy of love. I felt like I was nothing like I felt really miserable. And I think, whatever the belief is, whether it's true or not, it's like you will collect the evidence that it is true. That's how we work, That's how we're hardwire. So it's like, I think for most of my life, I just kept collecting the evidence that I wasn't good enough, that I needed to achieve something so then I would be good enough.
And then you achieved something like I got the Comwalth Games gold medal or my home soil my first major support event, and I woke up in the morning I was like, nothing's changed, Like I'm still the same person and I still hold these core beliefs, but I don't
feel like I'm worthy or good enough. And it's a really interesting thing because I do also like sit this coexist belief is like it is also the twenty year career of striving for greatness that has made me change my belief about myself or made me realize that I
am more, I am capable. So it's like I don't want to say to young people that, like, hey, striving for things is a bad thing, but it's like just realizing that, like set big, audacious goals, but just realize that achieving that goal won't change who you are as a person.
It's almost like the striving, striving is.
What makes you who you are.
But do you think sometimes achievement and as somebody who has medals and has been winning things from a young age, do you think sometimes achievement can like plug the self esteem holes artificially like that you it's like you get a medal instead of looking internally for things to feel proud of.
Yeah, and it kind of like you get like a slap on the bump from all of society. People start celebrating you go, oh you are so amazing, How good is this? And then you you feel good. It's like instant gratification. You feel good. It's like eating the sweet food or like I don't having a beer. It's like
those instant gratification things like short lives. It's like really short lived and then you go back to home and you're like, Wow, I'm lonely and I don't like my own company, Like it's a strange reality that we can't And I think there's this is a common experience for many people in our society. I think I've just tried my best. I don't think it's like a linear thing. I don't think you just arrive at a destination and go, oh,
I'm happy. I'm contenting myself. It's like, I just want to have more days like that more often than not. But I find that by me collecting the evidence that I am a good person, that I am worthy, it's like that has changed a little belief about myself. And nine times out of ten my days are like that now, where I'm like, I think that I'm worthy, I think that I'm capable, I think that I'm deserving. But it's because I'm doing those things and I'm collecting the evidence that I am those things.
Yeah, from what you're saying, it almost feels like that moment in Paris where you don't get what it is that you want. Sometimes that's like a more meaningful life moment because it actually clarifies that the reason you were doing all of this was not for the metal, but
for what it would teach you along the way. Like, I think it probably as much as I'm sure it is heartbreaking, And me sitting here not having trained in the Olympics for two decades, I'm like, it's fine, but I kind of think there's got to be some profound meaning in that moment.
Yeah, have you ever read The Alchemist?
No, but I should smart people.
It's a really easy read. I'm not a smart person, but it's one hundred and seventy pages and it's so easy. But it's very much the story of that he goes on a search for treasure and then he kind of gets the treasure. He realized that. He's like, oh, this wasn't what I was searching for. It's a weird thing, right, Like even if I was to win that gold medal, and then I ride this wave and it kind of plugs a hole, and then like he is something like, wow,
I'm like depressed, Like what you know? I mean, like, at least now I'm like, hey, my worth isn't attached to that gold medal, Like I know that who I am as a person, of course is heartbreaking. Of course I spent two decades trying to chase that. It's like, I know that if my friend called me, or my brother called me, or if I saw someone on the street struggling, I would be there to help. And that is where I get myself worth.
And I think that's really important for people to be aware of. And and I love what you say about being an athlete or being in the public eye. You're not the person working in a council ward or working with sick children, because I think sometimes your ego can trick you into thinking that you are actually the most important thing in the world and you're better than everyone else.
And it would be easy to think.
That social media, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
People are just like, oh my gosh, you're amazing. You must get messages every day from people just in awe of you. And I think it's really important to remember what it is, yeah, that you do, and also be in awe of other people and what they do day to day.
Yeah, there's a saying it's like, be more interested, not interesting. Was Matthew mcconnae.
He's actually very I know.
I'm super wise, and I really like his story. I'm pretty sure it's the youngest of three boys too. So yeah,
I love his story. But it's so true, like I actually got someone to take over my social media like a couple of years ago now, because it's like it was nineteen to nine percent positive like this, there is some negative, and you probably remember the negative because that's say hard why, But like, so you read nine numbercent positive comments about yourself, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, it's
like you start thinking you're a legend. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not, like, I'm not like I know, I'm not a bad person, but it's like I'm super flawed and like I and I don't always live up to the person I want to be. I try my best, and I think that's like most people, right, But it's like you start reading that, you're like, yeah, I'm real good. Let's say so good.
It's I often talk on this show about the idea that the expectation of happiness can be a bit of a trap, and there are moments in life where the world tells us we'll be happy when we get the thing we've been striving for, or how lives look particularly shiny and perfect from the outside, but beneath the surface, we are just not happy. Is there a time in your life that you think of where the world told you you'd be happy and you weren't.
Or that if and when mindset. Yeah, it's a weird trap. Yeah, probably after most achievements, right, yeah, yeah, definitely after a lot of the times where I achieved something and as I said, like it was like a plug something for a period of time, but it's like it's not long and then you're like, I've got to get the next thing. It's like it's a genuine addiction, like like an addictions running my family. I've been addicted to negative things in
my life. I've been addicted to positive things in my life, but they all cause very similar things. And it's like low self worth and then it's like unique that next feeling to feel something to feel in your body or else you're just like life is boring. I find that because I've lived the highest of highs and I've been the lowest of lows, and wow, I feel alive in both. Yeah, but in the middle you're like, oh this is so yeah,
it feels like that sometimes. So I don't know. I want to try and get control of that before I have kids, because I don't want to pass on to kids, but it's a hard reality to live in of Like when I'm operating at this like halfway, I'm like, man, this is boring.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
And I think also when you're used to those extremes like which I can imagine when you go into the ring for boxing, you have so much adrenaline, you have like you're just so present and so aware. I can't imagine there are many other times in day to day life when you feel like that. Is there a comdown after a.
Fight, absolutely, yeah, massive come down, even after an event like the Olympics. But I think like you even't thinking about like the smaller scale. So you go to like a music festival, like or you go to a concert, like it's like amazing, this endorphin release, you're connected to humans, you're singing your favorite band. But then you go home you're like, like you're little bit unhappy the next day.
But it's like it's because you've like exhausted yourself a little bit, and it's just that's the reality of things. But and I guess the higher you go, the lower you go on the other end as well. But I've learned to manage that quite well. And I'm pretty proud of myself this time, like five years ago, I ailed at a number of things, and like the different decisions I was making compared to now, it's like chalk and cheese. So I'm pretty proud of myself for that.
What kind of things did you used to do when you failed?
Where did you go? And what were the unhealthy behaviors that you leaned into?
Be more like substance abuse and stuff like that. Yeah, it'd be trying to like numb the person I saw in the mirror. Yeah, Yeah, it was just like I was super ashamed of myself, and it would be like more of a punishment, Yeah, punishment, but it would be kind of hidden away with like laughter and joking with people that you're with. But it was like even because you're like shivered singing about like it was hard to be in that like just knowing that I wasn't there
for fun. I was there to like actually just like no numb my feelings. Like I don't know, and I just I feel like I've spoken to a number of people in my life and I feel like we often do this as humans, Like we feel the heaviest of emotions and we run away and distract, and I'm guilty of this too. I'm doing it right now with this book tour, like I'm not really feeling what i need to feel, and I am conscious that I'm trying to create this space when I have some time. So but
it's one of the things we do. It's like, as you said, though you like run away, distract, try and you may not feel it, and then it's like, in the process of that, you kind of pick up a few tools and you get through it in a weird way. It's like out of the universe is always working for us. I believe, not against this, but yeah, it's a strange reality.
After the break, Harry talks about how his life has changed since gaining a public profile and whether he thinks money actually does by happiness. You talked about during your childhood you didn't necessarily have a lot of money, and now I would imagine you're in a very financially different position where not only I assume you've made good money from boxing and media and that sort of thing, but there are lots of opportunities for you to make money. Do you think money buys happiness.
The buye's freedom. Yeah, I don't think it buys happiness. I think you can chase something your whole life, and if you don't like the person you see in the mirror, it's like that's not happy. But I think money does
buy time and freedom. And I know, coming from no money, like I want to make sure when I have kids, like I didn't go to private school, and or make sure I try and send them to the best school possible, Like I want to give them the best opportunity I can, right, I want to strive for things financially for them and for myself as well, like I want to change the stars for my family and my future family. But I
don't think money buys happiness. Like find your passions, find your interest, and it's like when you're feeling secure financially, it's like, make sure you create time and space to do those things. It's like I actually read this threat. I think it was on Instagram, and it was around like investing in love. Like love is the most beautiful emotion, right we all love being in love or loving our
favorite sport team or like our favorite thing. Love is so pure, And it was like invest in love, invest in those cute little romantic dates, invest in those like the journals so you can write each other love notes and invest in those things that like you care about me. I think so often as humans we're just like we push those things to the side because they're always here our partner or our family. We push them to the side,
but like, dedicate some time to those people. Like I don't know, we spend more time working rather than like investing in love. But I get it, you might need to strive that. I'd rather spend all my money and like I don't be in love and just pure.
I think the problem is that when you're struggling financially, all your energy goes to that and you don't have time to think about investing in love, or investing in peace, or investing in yourself because every moment is stressing about money. That's what it feels like with money. Like what's your relationship with money? Do you use it to help your family? Do you use it to invest in incredible experiences?
Like where do you go with it?
It's there a combination of everything. Yeah, this is one of the qualities I really like about myself. I'm super generous for my money, almost to a fault sometimes, But I've always been very much like that, like I'm always the person who say you're at a friend dinner or something like that. It's like, I get up, I've gone on the toll and I'll pay for dinner.
Right.
It's just like my dad very much was like that. And I'm in a position now where it's like, yes, I don't have a house, like I don't have heaps of money, Like yeah, that's the thing, A generation won't buy a house, but like, I don't have heaps of security. But compared to where I was, like I literally didn't make the Rio Olympics in twenty sixteen. I was fresh eighteen and I was in fifteen thousand dollars debt trying
to make the team. I didn't even make it, right, And it's like I spent the next two or three years paying off that debt as a tradesman. And then now I'm in a position now where it's like I can look back at that and go, I'm so different now, And yes, of course I'm not well off on the standard of Australia. I'm in a position now I don't
have responsibilities, I don't have kids. So if I can help a friend out, if I can help a brother out, if I can help a family out, then I will one hundred percent trum my best to do its.
In twenty twenty three, you went into the jungle for I'm a Celebrity and you finished second and you were just adored by viewers, and there was a little period of time when you'd finish filming and when you got on the plane to go home, that sounded really magical and you got to spend time with your dad. Can you tell me about what that experience.
Was like talking about money, Like I upgraded my dad to business class, which is awesome. So like me and my dad like growing up, like would never have a dream of going to business class.
I've never flown business class. And your description of business class, I'm like, oh, I just.
Wanted so so wild, Like I'm just doing that with my dad, Like, especially after such an amazing experience like I'm a celebrity. Yeah, me and my dad, it must have been. We're both quite pissed by the time the time we took off, Like it was such an amazing experience and just to sort of share that with my dad, like so unbelievably grateful.
I don't know why it's particularly with our dads but sometimes we feel like you're trying to be all flashy and achieve things so that your dad will be proud of you. You're doing like a dance, You're like, hey Dad, hey dad, look at what I'm doing. And with that, it's like you had been on TV Australia had loved you, and then you had some time in like fancy accommodation where you got to.
See animals and all that, did you feel like your dad was really really proud of you.
I know both my parents are extremely proud of me. I don't think you realize this when you're younger, but I I went to my dad a few times in my life and some quite recently too, Like I would say, this is like my goal, this is my dream, what I want to do, and he would shout me down straight away. And I didn't realize this as a kid, and you would take that personally think oh what, like he doesn't believe in me or like whatever, and you
just take this creates your story. But what I've realized it's like it's his projection of him not believing that he's capable of doing that, which is heartbreaking. Right, Like my dad's one of the smartest men. I know, Like he does those quiz you know, those game shows, He's getting every question right. I'm like, that's why are you trained? But obviously you're the smartest, like go on who wants to win it. I know it's sad because it comes
from his I'm assuming I have no idea. I think it comes from his projection of he doesn't potentially believe that if his wild reshimes, he could do it. So but I'm like, surely, after twenty seven years of life, I've proven to you by now that like if I said I'm going to do something, I'm going to try my absolute hardest to do it. I might not achieve it, but I'll be bloody trying.
Yeah. And so it sounds like you were in this beautiful moment of doing things that you never thought you'd be able to do with your dad, and having come off the back of this show, then you landed in Australia and you pretty much entered a nightmare. Can you tell me about the moment that you were arrested?
Yeah, it was. To be honest, I haven't ran away from that. More than anything. I don't know if you'll ever get fully get through something like that it's like a weird sort of I wouldn't say PTSD. Maybe it is, it might have formed of PTSD, but yeah, I just walked into something that I had absolutely no idea was
going to occur. So just like that period of my life was like extremely low, like a bit of a blur, but it's so powerful, like what goes on in that I actually felt like that was like one of the best things to ever happen to me. Like I feel like that was actually the turning point in my life where I built a better relationship with myself. I had my own back in that moment, I showed up for myself. I didn't turn to anything negative. I didn't drink for
like six months. I like was just doing what I needed to do to get through that moment, and I'm really grateful for that. I actually did a breathwork experience probably three months post and I was still very much in it, and I had this beautiful experience where I was like bird's eye view of myself. And this has never happened to me. People talk about it in their breath of extimes. My shut up, that doesn't happen. It happened to me, and I was like hugging a young kid,
and I'm just assuming it was my younger self. I'm what a full circle moment. That young kid was like so sad, right, But I, as a twenty six year old man at the time, I had his own bag. I had his back, And I'm really grateful that that moment happened because I think I wouldn't be able to handle the Paris loss the way I am now if it wasn't for that moment, right, that was life shattering.
That moment of being arrested. From reading your book, I didn't even think how many opportunities you would have lost in that moment, where people would have just pulled contracts, pulled things. And the other thing you write about is how it impacted relationships. So what happened in terms of like, were there people who let you down in that moment where you really needed support.
I wouldn't say let me down. I would definitely more so say they showed their true colors. But there was many people who like led a hand, like gave me a hand up. And I'm really grateful for those people. And I'll speak so highly of Sue Christanthe and Rebecca Giles and Hamish McLaughlin and the girls that Swiss multivitamins like my management. I mean, like people stepped up, Like when I was lost, right, and there was a lot of people who did it. It was a pretty hectic experience.
And I get it. The world we live in, it's like this cancel culture. But how I've always is like Peter Bowl, prime example. We went through Peter Bowl, the ade of Ameter Runner, who went through that drug doping situation where he was falsely accused of drug doping, but he was like accused for a long period of time, right, And I messaged him because Peter Bowl has always been a bloody legend to me always. I do not agree with drug cheating. I'm like so against it, like morally
it's not okay. But he has treated me with respect and dignity. And when he was going through that, I messaged him saying, mate, I'm always here for you, call if you need anything, because he has been good to me, right, And I try and base people on that. It's like whatever comes out about them, I have no idea. I
don't know what's right. Obviously got proven to be false, you mean, but it's like they treat you with respect it's like we should be judging people on that, not this public stuff, because this cancel culture is just like toxic, it's like gossip, Like it's so just like, oh, trashy.
It's interesting that when a story like that comes out, and for you, it was being accused of domestic violence, which for a man in the public.
Eye is the worst thing that you can be accused of.
And I can imagine for someone like you, who is incredibly respectful and incredibly you've always been very open about embracing femininity and just not being that kind of man, I can imagine that was a really frustrating, hurtful experience in that moment. Did people come to you and ask if you did it? And how did that feel?
To be honest, Like, I don't know, I kind of would have respected someone if they did. Yeah, yeah, because absolutely, like you should ask that question. I think if I remember correctly, like it was kind of a blow that period, But I don't think it happened that often, Like I can't remember any specific moments. But it's like, I don't know many people like want to front up and have that uncomfortable conversation, like and I would kind of respect
it if they did. Absolutely. If someone come to come the pub and said you can write comments online, like yeah, you're real tough doing that. It's like if someone comment through the publem was like hey, like push me or something like that, It's like I would kind of respect that, right, It's like yeah, because those charges are so hectic, so hectic, but it didn't happen. No.
No, in terms of the people who you say kind of showed their true colors and maybe didn't reach out or it's weird. When you're a public figure, it's almost like there are two versions of you. There's like the human, actual version of you that people know and get to be with, and then there's the version of you that's
in the daily mail and in the newspaper. And clearly they get conflated sometimes, and for some people it probably was that they just went, oh, he did this, and then their minds turned off once the charges were withdrawn and it was incredibly clear that this never happened. Did people come out of the woodwork, Did people kind of come to you like people who had disappeared when the charges came out?
Yeah, definitely, definitely a couple. It's part of the world we live in, right, now, But and I also know, like for myself, I stop being so self centered and narcissistic, Like people have their own problems in life, Like I don't know people's situations, so I can sit here at absolutely critique. And there was some really hurtful ones, right that turned their back of me when I thought that we were like good mates. But it's also like I don't know their reality, right, I don't know what they
were going through. I don't know what they could have been an experience with something in that, so I try my best not to sit in that like resentful spitefulness, Like I know, I just find that quite ugly for myself. But of course, like I don't know if you can ever fully be like oh yeah, no, worries may whatever, like it's like you remember, like it's like forgive but never forget type situations. So I the whole situation, like my circle got way smaller, and I'm really grateful for that.
Like I spent my whole childhood sort of searching for like heaps of friends, but it's like my quality of friends right now is so strong, and I'm really grateful for that. And the circle is very small in the Sanctum is very small, and I'm extremely grateful for that.
When you got famous, did you find that that there were people who tried to latch onto you? Like with fame, does it change the nature of your relationships?
Oh, that's why I probably realized that the most in dating. Yeah, yeah, because it's like it's my own inner belief. It's like they like the they love or like the idea of me, not actually me. And I understand that's my own story of like that inferiority complex whatever, but it's like I very much do feel that. So it's like it takes a decent amount of time for me to break free
of that. And I always try and listen to my guard my intuition, Like you can kind of tell someone's intentions pretty quick most of the time if you're paying attention. So in saying that, I've been very wrong a number of times too, So it's just part of it, part of the nature. Like I always try my best to be as genuine as I can, and you can kind of read like sometimes you can't help if you don't
like someone, like you just don't get around them. But there's so many good people in this world, and I've met so many people since I got like a little bit of public knowledge. So and I'm really grateful for those people.
Now looking back at the allegations and the arrest.
Are you angry, Nah, it was the best thing that happened to me. So you learn the most. Of course, I don't like saying this, because you learn something from every situation. You learn something when you win, you learn something when you succeed, But it is true we learn way more when we don't succeed or when life really knocks us down. And for me, that was like soul shattering.
And I'm yeah, I'm not angry. I'm not resentful what I've moved on, and I know, I feel like I'm just focusing on my goals my ambitions now and I've got a new partner and I'm really happy in that, and like, I think that's the most important thing. I never wanted that situation to take away from my ability to love, because love is the most pure and genuine thing.
And I love when I share my life with someone and you want to tell them about your best moments and your worst moments, and you want to hear theirs like, oh, that's what we live for. We are social animals. And I'm really grateful for that, so I'm not angry at all.
More of my conversation Harry Garside after this short break. You have a line in your book that really stuck with me, and it's anger is just sadness suppressed. And I thought it was really profound, particularly when it comes to men and mental health. When you look at the men around you who fit that stereotype of being angry, and I think we all know men like that. Do you think deep down they're sad? And what do you think is making men sad?
So I've thought about this so much, and I obviously can only speak for the males in my environment, but I think I've met a number of men, especially being in a sport like boxing, and I think the biggest thing I reckon men search for is acknowledgment and respect. I don't know what your relationship's like with your dad or if you have a partner, I'm not too sure, but it's like, if you really pay attention to them.
All the men in my life they do this weird acts of service when no one's looking like my dad, I'll go down to Melbourne and the car will be clean and it'll be full of fuel right, doesn't say a thing, doesn't do anything, and it's acts of service. I think the biggest thing they're searching for is acknowledgment. And so often we just like overlook men. Right. It's like when the boat's thinking, who do we take care of? Which we should is kids and women, right, And it's
male's duty. That's like a man's role. And I love that. But I think in a society we live in now, it's like, I think men just are searching for a little bit of respect and acknowledgment. And in that it's like I think a lot of their sadness may dissipate a little bit potentially. I'm not sure. I'm not like a psychologist. I don't have the rules of the universe, but like, I think it would really help.
Yeah, I think there's something about feeling a bit invisible. And my husband and I have a little eight month old daughter, and so it's always about like I'm doing this and you're doing this. And I've realized that he does a whole lot of things that I don't see and it's really easy for me to say, but I'm feeding the baby and I'm getting up at night and that sort of thing, and he will have a huge list of exactly what you say, acts of service that I don't acknowledge. And I think it is that thing
of wanting to be seen and acknowledged and respected. My dad is exactly the same. You say you hate the term toxic masculinity.
Why is that?
I think when it started it was quite pure, But I just think it's been used in a really bad way. And I think any platform, any podcasts, any place in society that is putting men against women is toxic in itself. Like we need each other, like that's how we were animals, right, Like we need each other just as much as it's like, and I think absolutely there is things that we need to reflect on about the male culture. It is negative
for sure. And I noticed this, Like when I'm in in a male environment where I say, there's a group of ten boys, I noticed that I start acting a little bit different and the jokes are a little bit different, right, And it's like, I do notice that. That's so, I mean, do we need to reflect on Like we don't talk about deep stuff. We're always taking the piss out of each other, Like, but there is also so many beautiful
things about masculinity. I'm sure you've saw that with your dad and your partner and other male figures in your life. And I just think that any platform in our society that is putting men against women or vice versa is toxic in itself, and I think we need to work together to get to a better position.
You also talk a lot about men and mental health. What do you think is the difference, for example, when you have struggled with your mental health. We know that suicide rates, for example, are really high among men. What do you think it is that makes mental health issues among men particularly scary and severe.
I personally think like men want to feel capable and like they have a job. It's like I have beans for many men in my life and like say call my day's Yeah, what are you doing this week? I'm like, yeah, I'm just trying to look for a car. It's like here will go that night and like find eight cars in my local area.
You know.
I mean, he's just like that type of person. It's just like they want to feel capable, they want to feel needed, right, And I think that is actually biologically in most masculine people, whether it be male or female. But it's like they want to feel capable, they want to feel needed, And I think in a society, it's like the generations before us right have just kind of created a world that's like almost in Western world, it's like almost perfect. It's like, yes, there is so many
things that we can evolve and get better at. But it's like if you're born in Australia in the top three percent of the wealth in the world, it's like we're not really struggling. Like I've lived overseas, I've lived in poverty stricken countries and I've seen that there it's like real struggle. But I think the world we live in right now is just like it's almost really good.
The fact that we don't need that masculine energy, whether it be man or woman as much anymore, Like we don't have fires, we don't have as much war or anger. I don't know, it's a weird thing. I just think in that a lot of men are feeling loss, and it is up to I want to say this, it is up to men as well to make sure they recognize this and go, Okay, I need to go to the gym more often. I need to find something where I feel strong and capable. I want to start at
Brazil and jiu jitsu. I want to do something where I feel strong, I feel capable, and it feeds that thing inside of us, right, and then in that maybe they feel more secure. But at the moment, it's just like they're probably sitting behind a TV and just like watching like terrible like and they're feeling like unheard and listen to it. It's like what are they actually doing to help themselves too? It's like a both society needs to help them and they need to help themselves.
Yeah, you have a bit of an interesting kind of approach to that, where you have little challenges you do every month. I find this so inspiring and I really really want to do it. Can you explain what those challenges are and a few examples of once you've done.
Yeah, So I originally started for an Olympic gold medal this start of twenty nineteen. So this month, which I'm currently doing right now, is the sixty eighth month in a row. I've done stuff like fifty hours no talking, public reading. I've begged for money, I've washed windows at lights if that's a really hard conversation, started ballet karaoke. Some are fun. Some are good. Improv class was a lot of fun. Yeah, some of fun, some are good.
The one I'm doing this month is I'm living under the poverty line, so I'm living off for two hundred and fifty bucks for the week after rent and bills and stuff like that. So four hundred and eighty nine dollars in Australia is under the poverty line and I am living at two fifty after rent and bills, and it's thirty five dollars a day. So it's day two
and it's been really interesting. Like yesterday I walked through Coals trying to find some dinner and it was like, oh my god, Coals and Woolworths are absolutely ruining the hip hocket of our population, like it is wild. I couldn't get anything for like a decent amount, like so remember that five dollar meal? Remember that was it? That was it ten dollar meal or something like that? Feet family for ten dollars. Something that calls out is that you
couldn't do that anymore. No, I could not do that.
And sometimes when you're not conscious of it, it's almost invisible, like I'll just go to the tooth market and pick up what I need. Then when I scared everything, I'm like, oh Jesus Christ, I have no money and this is why. But when you're being fully intentional and looking at how do I have an affordable meal, it is terrifying. You talk about embracing your feminine energy and you paint your nails, and that's become like a bit of an iconic thing. What did it mean to you the first time you
painted your nails? Because there's a bit of a story around it.
Yeah. So this youth organization, the Reach Foundation, they come to my school when I was sixteen and I was in this stage of like, I was having no success at boxing, and I was like, do I just start partying like all my mates and go down that path and leave school and become a trade And I only really stayed at school for boxing because it's really easy for your body. And they come to my school and I was having this like identity crisis and through the
day it was actually all about challenging masculinity. Is probably the reason why was so like strong about it because of that day, right, And they gave me a space where I could delve into myself and actually see what I find because I felt like I played a role my whole life, and I was feeling misunderstood, but I didn't know who I was. So it's like, how can you show who you are if you don't know who you are?
Right?
And I just went on this like and I'm still on it. I love it, Like iing on this like wild journey of actually trying to find out who I am. Right. I don't know if you ever fully find the answer, but I'm getting closer and closer each day. And in that day, it was obviously a very masculine environment. It was just males, and they spoke about men are always the ones like you see at parties jumping off the roof onto tables or fighting or like drinking the most.
It's like it's like this competitive, highly competitive nature environment and it's just like often in that we do a lot of negative things. And I think that day was just all about challenging it. And one of the things was paint your nails. All the boys like, oh you
imagine what six year boys are saying. And when you're painted your nails and you went out for lunch and then you come back, you realize that the world didn't finish and nothing change, right, nothing changed it's just this like belief that we choose to believe about well, how we have to act. And I'm really grateful for that day. And then I become a crew member and I guess the rest is history. And that really helps me out about building my emotional intelligence, which I'm so grateful.
When you talk about having feminine energy, what does that look like to you?
Feminine energy for me is the place that I go where I need to take care of myself. It's probably the place that I'm distracting myself from the most right now. It's in flow, it's care, it's just being in rhythm with yourself, being in sync. And I love that. I think pure feminine energy is like organic when I dance, I feel like that when I move my body, I'm in flow, I'm in rhythm. It's really nice. But it's also the space where I go and I need to
let go. I think the masculine energy for history has been like you'd be strong, and like if you're in war, you don't talk about gees on my leg swords, like you keep going, you keep fighting. We need that we're ers, and I think we all have masculine and feminine inside of us. It's just up to us to ask ourself the question to see what energy we need most right now, and that will vary through our time.
Yeah, I think that idea of feminine energy is really you don't hear a lot of men acknowledging it, even though every man I know has clear different parts to them and even do things that YE are clearly leading into their feminine energy.
Have you experienced this before? So I spoke to a lot of women in my life and they've said that like when they date a man, like the man would love like words of affirmation. It's just like men never it's like the acknowledgment right never. Really like men love when their partners saying all these nice things about what you say. It's like they want to hear it, right, And it's just like it's like a really interesting thing. And I think more men need to sort of just
as create space and ask yourself the question. I'm not saying that you need to paint your nails or like start dance or like wear a dress, like, just ask yourself what you need and it will vary throughout time, and create that space and try and give it to yourself. Like I think we need to take care of ourselves rather than focusing other things to take care of us.
Yeah, what currently day to day keeps you from happiness? Like what would you say is your biggest challenge to happiness At the moment, I.
Think happiness is like a fleeting thing. It's like a weird myth that the Western civilization tells us, like we will be happy. Then it's like this, when I do this, then I will be happy. It's like that if and when mindset. But it's like some days are on I'm sure hormones for females play a massive role. Like I have been around many women in my life and you're like, oh, okay, it's coming. She hates me, hates me right now, But it's like it's just noticing, like some days are good,
some days are bad. But I try my best to have more like consistent and happy life. And probably the thing that is shopping me from that is like it's like myself sometimes like how often do you like sacrifice like going to the gym, or sacrifice like seeing your friends, or sacrifice something for work, or like just really your prioritization list for me is the thing that will take away from my happiness at times yeah, yeah, So I think it's just like it's like knowing what really lights
you up. It's like does work really light you up? It's like, yeah, you probably need a work to put from the table, but it's like do you need to stay back here until seven thirty at night? Like, yeah, do you need to take that book home? Like do you really need to? Of course, we all need to progress in our career, but I don't know. I think that's probably the thing, is like the prioritization of other things rather than the things I really enjoy.
And right now post Paris, post some really difficult times. But you know, also in the midst of having your book out and feeling like you have a lot to offer, would you say that right now you are happy?
As I said, it's very fleeting. It's very fleeting. I feel like there's days where I wake up and I feel playful at the moment. I don't know. Do you ever see Kathy Freeman when she won that four unameter race, It was like relief? Yeah, right, it was relief. Like I love competing, I love fighting, I love like that primal energy that it brings out. I love chipping away at a goal for a year for twenty years, and
I love that. It's great. But I also like there was moments in my preparation I was like, oh, I can't wait for this to be over. Yeah, when I was tired, I was really tired. I think in that I'm just like, oh, like my shoulders are down right now. So yeah, it's I feel in that. It's like I feel playful in that I'm eating bad food. I'm also having a few drinks when I've never using a drinks. It's like my body is not feeling amazing, but my mind is quite strong right now.
Yeah, playful is an interesting word. I know exactly what you mean, and it is those moments in life where maybe you have been working really bloody hard on something and it's happened and there's no more you can do, and so you get to kind of just be in the moment and choose like hedonism and joy rather than putting all of.
That aside for the big goal.
Thank you so much for your time today. It has been such a wonderful chat, and I think people will love what you've offered about failure and success and how it doesn't necessarily have any bearing on happiness.
So I really appreciate your honesty.
Oh, thank you, It's been absolute pleasure to talk to you.
I hope you took something from Harry about the significance and the utility of failure. Sitting with him, I was struck by the fact that while so many of us chase external achievement, it isn't medals or awards or any kind of metrics that I loved ones will remember us for, and it's not any of those things that actually make us happy. I want to thank Harry for being so open and for sharing himself with us. And if you want more from Harry, you can buy his book The
Good Fight at any good bookstore. Harry also spoke in this episode about how much breath work helped him, and if you're interested in breath work and you don't know how to start, the move by Mummeya team has made a free quiz to help you find the right meditation for your day, your life, your needs. There's an entire hi a collection of gentle mindfulness sessions over on move
mum MEA's exercise app. If you want a personalized recommendation, head to the link in the show notes and take the quiz to find your Meditation Match And if you want to recommend anyone for the show, you can always message me on Instagram. And if you like the show, leave us a review. We always love your feedback. The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Niama Brown and the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronik and I'm your host, Claire Stevens.
We'll see you next week.