You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Oh man, I need to study, but you know what, I have some laundry to do. Let me just go do that. Okay, time to study. Wait, did I need the stove on?
Oh? Let me go have a look. Okay, well, I guess it's off. I'm a little sleepy. Let me take a nap so i'm alert when I start to study for Mama Mia. I'm your host, Ashanny Dante. Welcome to But Are You Happy? The podcast for people who romanticize slow mornings and then snooze is their alarm six times?
And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health. Do you ever set yourself a goal or a task, but when it comes time to do it, you just can't seem to focus or follow through.
Yep, I'm definitely guilty of this. I'm suddenly doing ten other things around the house and not actually doing the thing that's priority.
Well, you're not alone. Procrastination is super common, and today we're going to dive into what's really going on when we put things off and why it happens in the first place.
Let's get into it. I feel like, procrastination is such a relatable behavior. I feel like I do it all the time. Hence why we're dedicating a whole episode to this, aren't we? Yeah? So what is procrastination?
All right, let's start off with some terms and some definitions. Procrastination is essentially a behavior where we delay a task we need to do. It's really as simple as that. It's putting something off that we know needs to get done or we know that we need to do so.
It does sound like such a blanket statement and very generic. So are there different types of procrastination or do we all just do the same thing.
We all procrastinate at times, right, because it's a normal human natural desire to want to sometimes put things off, especially if they're hard, or we know we're not going to enjoy them, or they bring up difficult emotions for us. There's a whole range of reasons why we might procrastinate on certain things. That's normal, that's natural. We all do it. I guess there's a difference between those of us who might sort of do it infrequently versus those of us
who do it on the regular. And that's where it becomes more problematic for people where they really end up in difficult situations because they've delayed tasks so long. But when it comes to different types of procrastination, I guess you know, there's the avoidance procrastination, where we just want to completely avoid doing a task so we don't do it at all. But then there's the procrastination that might feel productive, where we do the less important tasks first.
I've certainly been guilty of this at times. Well, I'll answer my emails before I get onto the big task I need to do, because.
That feels it feels way better.
It feels like I'm still doing so I'm still doing something right, so I'm technically not procrastinating even though I am. So there's that kind of like useful procrastination or productive procrastination as we might call it. And then there's kind of this more like perfectionistic procrastination, So people that feel like, well, I can't start yet because everything's not yet in order.
I need things to kind of be perfect or to be right or to be in order before I can start the task, which means that the task often ends up getting very delayed because it's really hard to get things to feel like they're perfect or exactly right before we start.
It's so interesting as you're talking about all three types of procrastination. In my head, I'm like, yep, that's me, Yep, that's me. Oh that's me again. Excellent. I don't know this is I'm curious to know whether I sit on the normal or the chronic side of procrastination. So well, I guess I be a therapy session for me.
So we would ask someone, you know, like, is procrastination causing problems in your life? Because we all do it. It's like any kind of coping behavior or coping mechanism, right,
anything in moderation can be okay. But if we feel like it means that I'm getting additional fines because I'm paying my bills late, or if it means that, you know, if you're if someone's at UNI and you're chronically handing in your assessments late and they're threatening to keep you out of the course, for example, It's sort of like how much of a problem does it show up as
in your life? Because if we procrastinate but there's no real problem about it, then I always say something's a problem only if it's a problem.
Yeah, okay, that's a really good way to discern between which side that you're on. Yeah, so why do we actually procrastinate, Like, what's the reason underneath it all?
There can be a range of different reasons y.
So some of the.
Common ones can be if someone has a lot of self doubt or a kind of fear of failure. This can really get in the way of starting a task. So again, if someone's got a UNI assignment to complete, for example, and they're worried about it. They're worried about not doing a good job, they're worried about getting a bad grade, they're worried that they don't understand the content well enough. This can absolutely get in the way of them starting the task. So that kind of fear attached
to the task. It might also be a fear that's related to kind of not knowing how to do the task. So, for example, if someone has to do their taxes and they've never done their taxes before, or they find that a really hard thing, that could be another reason why
someone procrastinates because it feels hard and overwhelming. We also have the category of people who are more perfectionistic and do have those perfectionistic tendencies, and that can make tasks feel really overwhelming because if I approach a task feeling like it needs to be perfect or I need to get it exactly right or do the absolute best I possibly can, it feels like a lot of pressure, and so naturally and understandably, someone's going to delay starting that task.
I mean, it's really interesting because all the three factors you've just identified is so relatable. And I know for me, you know, a lot of women ask me. You know, procrastination is definitely a question that comes up women who want to start their own businesses and they want to know how to combat this. But a lot of the time,
at the root of it is things like fear. And you know, we just keep ruminating, ruminating on all these thoughts, and it actually gets me thinking about two seasons ago on our first episode we talked about anxiety, and I know you mentioned a lot of okay, what's actually helpful thoughts and unhelpful and I feel like that kind of weaves in quite nicely with what we're identifying.
Absolutely, and I love that you talk about this link between perfectionism and kind of self doubt and self belief, right, because the two really do go hand in hand. Often it is that the person who may appear as being quite perfectionistic and having everything put together and under control, operates that way as a coping mechanism for those underlying beliefs or fears around self doubt.
Yeah, so true. Gosh, it feels like you're reading my journal lately. I was like, how does she literally write about perfectionism like the other day? It's great. So it's interesting to me because when it comes to procrastination, it somewhat feels quite automatic, like it's a habit. Like what's going on there?
It can become a habit, right, The more we do something more habitual it does become. So the more we procrastinate, the easier it will be for our brain and body to procrastinate. Again, if I talk about neural pathways in the brain, the more that we use a pathway in the brain, the stronger and more automatic it becomes. So if procrastination becomes a habit for me, it's often because I've practiced it a lot. But procrastination is often in
some way a choice. Right. We don't not do the task because we forget about it, because if we do, if I forget to do my taxes, that's different to me procrastinating doing my taxes. If I'm procrastinating, I know at the back of my head, I've got that thing, Oh do your taxes? Do your taxes? You know, like I'm not forgetting about it. It's there. Yeah, So there is a degree of choice when it comes to procrastination,
and people are often aware that they're procrastinating. It's slightly different to something we would refer to as task paralysis. So this is a kind of form of procrastination that some people can develop. We see it sometimes common for people ADHD, for example. But it is this overwhelm that feels paralyzing. It's almost like the body's fight flight freeze system is activated and someone goes into a freeze state,
and that's much less of a choice. That's sort of an experience that overwhelms someone and renders them sort of paralyzed to be able to engage in that task.
Wow, I didn't know about that. It's really interesting because I definitely can find myself when I'm on social media. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm just going to take a break, and then next minute, I'm literally I don't even know if we say next minute anymore. I don't know if that's a trend. Gen Zs. Don't judge me, but literally, ten like thirty minutes later, I've been scrolling and it gets me thinking about the environment that we're in. So how does environment impact procrastination?
It's a good point, you know, if we are in an environment where we have a lot of distractions, where there's a lack of structure, for example, this can make it easier for us to procrastinate. In every day. We have limited mental resources and only so much capacity to be able to plan out the day right, So, being able to have sort of structure in our day, if I know that when I wake up, I have these certain tasks I need to do, it's going to reduce some of the mental load that I need for the
day ahead. But if everything is kind of unstructured in my day to day life, if it feels quite chaotic and disorganized, it means that I need to use more of my mental load, more of that mental capacity to figure things out and plan as I go along. So that can sometimes be not very helpful if I'm trying to reduce the amount that I procrastinate.
I really love that you're talking about structure, because essentially structure does give us more clarity, like in our everyday task, but also in our inner world too.
Clarity and control. Right, if i feel like I've got a plan for the day, if i feel like I've got some degree of structure, I feel more in control over myself, over my behaviors and actions for the day and how the day might pan out.
It's so fascinating because procrastination it feels like there are so many layers to it, and I feel like you've already spoken to the emotions. It can be a habit. There's the environment, like are there other reasons as well why we procrastinate?
There can be unhelpful thought patterns attached to procrastination. So if we think about we've talked about thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in the past, these link up. This is the foundation of a lot of psychological work that we do. If we think about the emotion underpinning procrastination, it's often an emotion relating to anxiety or overwhelm or stress or fear of that kind of fear of failure. But there can be some unhelpful thought patterns attached to it as well.
So these might be thoughts like what we call the optimism bias, so I'll feel like doing it later. It's this kind of false optimism. I don't feel like doing it now, but I'll feel like doing it later, and I'm going to wait for that feeling to come about because that will motivate me to get the task done. Nice in theory, but usually doesn't work that way.
Yeah. So are we like lying to ourselves in that moment when we say that subconsciously?
Pretty much?
Yeah?
Okay?
Mostly. I mean if you are the sort of person and you have the experience in the past of going I know that I will feel like it later and I can run with that, then great, okay, But for most of us, the feeling will come once we start. It's not often that the kind of feeling of motivation to do my taxes is going to just magically appear.
Yeah, that's true.
So there's this kind of optimism bias where we're biased in thinking that at a later point in time we'll feel more motivated to do it, and that's not how motivation works. Motivation typically works by us starting a task and then building upon that, and once we start, we generally feel more motivated to keep going and complete it.
So there's this optimism bias. There's also sometimes a bit of a planning fallacy, and again I think this is a little bit of us sometimes lying to ourselves, where we maybe tell ourselves a task won't actually take as long to get done as we think, or the task
won't require as much effort as it actually will. This is a way of kind of minimizing the requirements of the task and being like, I'll do it later because it only takes me like twenty minutes to do it, when in reality it probably won't take me twenty minutes to do it, or I'll do it at the end of the day, when actually at the end of the day, I'm probably going to be most tired and less willing
to do it. So we can, you know, play sort of little mental mind games and tricks and fall into these unhelpful patterns of thinking that mean we delay a task, but it's not actually very good for us.
Yeah, it's such an interesting one, the planning fallacy one, because I feel like I'm the opposite where I can overthink a task and like this is going to take me five hours and it can be quite dramatic with it, but I actually can sit with it and you're like, oh, dang, it took me an hour. Yes, so it's like I'm I'm going the other.
Way, which is great when you do it and you get that after effect of like, oh it wasn't as bad as I thought. Yeah, But on the flip side, that this is going to take five hours can feel really overwhelming because it's where am I going to find five hours to fit this in and to do this task?
You know?
That real big, overwhelming kind of approach can also have the opposite effect where we then procrastinate because it feels so big.
Yeah, and it's also hard. I mean, this is where we've got a blanket some self compassion in it, because sometimes there's tasks that we haven't genuinely done before or their new tasks, so we don't actually know how long it's going to take as well.
Yes, that's true. That's true.
So I feel like the word procrastination can often get villainized. Is there any good to procrastination?
Well, to procrastination itself, to delaying task? Right, if we're talking about procrastination is delaying tasks sometimes, like you know, if I have something I really need to focus on right now, and this other task can wait then delaying it is a useful approach, but I kind of wouldn't necessarily call that procrastination. Procrastination is when we're intentionally putting
things off that we know we need to do. What I would say is there is a usefulness to sometimes feelings of anxiety slash stress, because that's often what might be underlying the feeling of wanting to delay something. So there's actually something called the yerkx Dodson law, Yes, the law about the law. So essentially what it is if you can imagine an upside down U shape, right, So
there is a level of stress. And when I'm talking about stress, I'm really talking about kind of a physiological stress. To think of it like energy or adrenaline, not like you know, debilitating worry. Yeah, there's a level of stress that can be helpful for us when we're trying to get tasks done. So if you imagine the upside down U shape, if you're on the very end of the kind of you where you have no stress whatsoever, this means we don't really have much motivation to get things done.
So it actually can be really hard if we have no stress to get the task done. On the other end, of the U. When we have extreme amounts of stress, this can also be debilitating because we're not in the right mind frame, we're not in the right sort of
physiological state to actually get the task done. So there's this optimal level in the middle, at the peak of our you where we have some stress in the body, and that means that we're actually quite effective at getting the task done and getting it done with a degree of efficiency and accuracy as well.
Oh, I really love the visual diagram because I'm just seeing it now and it's just going to be a good check for me next time when I'm stressing out or procrastinating being like, Okay, where am I at with this law? Yeah, at the Yerkstudson law.
Yes, And when you feel that like a little bit of stress there that's kind of niggling almost like lean into that and use that and be like, right now's my moment, I've got a little bit of that stress kind of happening. I can lean into that and actually use that to motivate me to get the task done, because when the stress gets to the other end and it's overwhelming, we're probably not getting much done there.
I feel like, for me, my inner critic voice can get louder sometimes, especially when I'm procrastinating. Is that a normal thing?
It's very common. Ye, it's unfortunately common because people know they have a task that needs to get done and they do want to do it. It's not that we don't want to do it, we just don't want to
have to go through the process of doing it. We want it done without having to do it totally, and so we know we need to do it, we know it might be really important as well, But there is that part of us that in a critic that comes up and that can be really mean and harsh towards us when, as we said, sometimes things are just hard to do. Sometimes they feel quite overwhelming. Sometimes they don't feel personally important to us, and we almost kind of
resent the fact we have to do them. But that inner critic can make the whole process so much harder to deal with.
So true. Thank god I'm not alone. So when it comes to procrastination, the hardest part is always starting. So how do we start building momentum?
The hardest part is starting, and I want to say sometimes the most important part is starting. Yeah, momentum and motivation comes once we start. So that's why the start is so important. If we wait for motivation to come, we'll be probably waiting a really long time. So we have to find ways to make the start feel as easy as possible. And typically what we recommend is break the task down into its smallest components, and I would
often recommend find the easiest part to do first. So if it's you know, I'm going to use the example of doing your taxes, right, if you have the task of doing your taxes, the idea of doing my taxes feels big and overwhelming and oh my gosh, it's going to take hours and I'm going to have to do so much and go through so much paperwork. Yeah, what's the first the first part of it. Maybe the first part is just gathering a bunch of papers and receipts,
you know. Maybe it's just putting everything in a pile together on the desk, And that's the first step. Find the first step and make it as small and as easy as possible. And that's important to start this kind of trajectory of motivation to come from there. And I love that it sounds simple, It sounds a bit cliched, but it is effective.
So have you found that effective for you breaking it up.
Yes'm I mean I'm not a typical procrastinator. I like to do I'm II lean the opposite way. I like to do things as soon as they like come into my orbit.
Yeah. I love that.
But I will say the one thing, well, one of things that I did procrastinate was when I had to start writing my book. I procrastinated that for about a month. I only had like a six month deadline, so a month felt like a long time to produce the manuscript. But I delayed it because it felt like once I started, then I've started. But before I start, I haven't yet started writing. So it was almost this like fake reassurance. Well I haven't started yet. I haven't. I've still got time.
I haven't started yet. And I remember I was like, okay, Anastasia, you just need to create the document that you're going to start writing in. And I remember like the day where I like sat down and was like, I'm making the document and this is the start of the book. And I just put the title there and that's all I did. But I started. It was like literally as simple as just starting a word document and that was it.
I didn't put any more pressure on myself, and I knew that it would sort of come once I ripped off that band aid and started that first part. But that first part I did delay, but just breaking it down into the smallest part of like you just got to start a document that made it feel more manageable. And I just had to focus on right now, not on finishing it, not on the end point, but just on doing the thing that I have to do right now, this one simple task.
I really love that because essentially we're wanting to create a winnable game for ourselves, Like every task we do, it's a game. And I think when we can show ourselves like, oh, look we did that one thing. We put a title on that document.
Yeah, you know, it's a win.
It is, and it's celebrating the small wins, that takes that pressure off. Yeah.
Absolutely. And I think to kind of build on this com about sort of time management and structural techniques. When it comes to addressing procrastination. There is something called the Pomodoro technique. So this again is about time management and breaking tasks down, but it's more about time intervals rather than pieces of the task itself. So the suggestion is to try and improve focus in productivity. We work on a single task for twenty five minutes, take a five
minute break, and then repeat this cycle. And after you've done four rounds of this, you take longer breaks of fifteen to thirty minutes.
Oh wow, And that's effective.
It is effective, And I like it because it's prescriptive. And sometimes when we're struggling to find our own self motivation or self regulation, having a prescribed pathway can be useful to lean on.
Yeah. Absolutely, So, I know you've given us some really great practical time management skills, but when it comes to procrastination, it isn't all about time management, right, because there's stuff going on underneath, So like, how do we address that?
The time management is a real sort of practical sort of way to approach it. But as we said before, there's these emotional underpinnings at a lot of the time that can be related to sort of fear or overwhelm. I think this is where it's really important for us to reflect on what's actually underneath my procrastination. What am I feeling? Why am I feeling this urge to procrastinate this task and put it off? Is it that I'm
worried about the failure potential failure? Is it that I feel like I need to get it one hundred percent right, that I resent the fact I have to do this task. If we can address and find those underlying feelings getting in the way of the procrastination, then we can work with those feelings. We can sort of challenge some of
those those emotions and thoughts attached to the emotions. We can journal about it, we can kind of work through the feelings to take away a layer of a barrier to that procrastination.
So what about the environment when it comes to breaking through procrastination and building that momentum.
I would recommend an environment that is quite clear, you know, clear of distractions. We don't want too many distractions in the space. We want it to not be an environment where maybe we usually do other things. So often we recommend to people, you know, don't sit and try and do work in bed, for example, because bed is attached to sleep, not attached to work. Guilty, and we might be more likely to just open Netflix rather than actually kind of do the task in front of us. Again,
this is with a grain of salt. If you find you work really well in bed and can also sleep really well, then keep going. But for those of us who might procrastinate, don't try and work in bed or sometimes even in your room. I know that's not always possible for people who might be living in spaces where the only place they can work for is in their bedroom, but if possible, maybe not working in the bedroom. It might be sort of taking yourself to a different space.
Some people will find working in a cafe can be really effective for them, so taking themselves to a space that's away from their kind of usual environment.
Yeah, I love that you were really unpacking environment because for me, I can operate very differently because I like to romanticize my space, so lights and candles, incense. I might even create a bit of a reward system for myself, being like, okay, Shannie, you can have a mucha after you get through this task. It's still a reward even though I have it every day. But I think creating a cozy space for me feels like it just allows
it to feel a little bit more enjoyable. So it is you know, it is going to be different for everyone, and that's okay too.
Yes, absolutely, sometimes people will find a lot of comfort in that romanticized space as you said for others, it'll feel too comfortable and they'll not want to do the work or the hard task. So it depends on the person totally.
And I think something that's really worked for me, And it's an interesting one because I know we have all sorts of people tuning in, but I know for me being a woman, and you know, whether it's people that have wombs as well, knowing that women operate on a twenty eight day cycle, you know, because I think we're used to that more masculine consistency, twenty four hour clock, but our bodies aren't designed like that. And that's been a massive breakthrough for me because I'm tracking where I'm
at in my different phases on my cycle. So right now I'm giving you all insight into my cycle. But I'm like in my late lou Tell phase, So that's when I feel a lot more tired. I'm like not my energy is dipping, So that's when I can ramp up my self compassion, and then that also helps me to know what environment I want to be in. I want to be horizontal while doing my work and that's okay,
you know. So I think it's really nice that we can bring more of an awareness to it because I think it's like a new dialogue that's coming through for women.
Yes, absolutely, and on a broad level, just this idea that we're not consistent as people. You know, we're going to vary in terms of our mood, how we're feeling, how much energy we have, and that's going to impact our ability to get things done in the day. Herb Hearb, Hearb. I'm cowving a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
We've reached that time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you Anaesthesia. This one comes from Eve.
I don't know if this is procrastination or if it's something deeper, but I find myself putting things off, even things that I really want to do. Like I'll look forward to the weekend and I think I'm going to start this brand new project. I've been excited about it for months, and then on the weekend, I'll just spend the time like cleaning, watching videos on my phone, and just doing anything except like the project that I really care about doing. And with this comes a massive like
shame spiral. I beat myself up. I'm always telling myself that I'm lazy and unmotivated and just like not disciplined enough to follow stuff through. But I don't think that voice is helping. If anything, it's probably making it harder for me to get started. Why do I keep avoiding the things that matter to me? And how do I stop feeling so much shame around it?
Great? Self aware? Does Eve?
I agree?
Yeah?
I agree, especially recognizing that that shame spiral isn't probably helping. Right when I was listening to this, I was thinking about that productive procrastination sort of category that we were talking about. Not that they're sort of clinical definitions of procrastination, but these sort of subtypes we can fall into. They're sort of cleaning the house instead of starting that project that you want to start. I would recommend to Eve to think about what's getting in the way of starting
that project. Is it that it feels too big and overwhelming and you're just not really sure where to start. Is it that you're worried about starting it and not being successful or there being some sort of failure along the way. Do you feel like, perhaps you know, once you start it, then it's real, you've sort of committed
to it, and there's something scary about that. I would say, spend some time thinking about the fear or the emotions underlying the procrastination for you and what getting in the way, and once you're able to identify that, you'll be able to figure out ways to move past it. As we've said before as well, starting small is the best way. Where they say you eat an elephant one bite at a time, or whatever the saying is, that's not the saying. I hope I got that right. If not, that will sound terrible.
We're a leading elephants now.
But it really is the idea of just like taking it one chunk at a time, figure out what that first step is with this project that you've got your mind set on, and what's the very first small step that you can take to get started on that. And as for the shame spiral and the self criticism, you're
absolutely right that this is probably not helping you. So in that case, i'd actually recommend you check back in Without Inner Critic episode all about self criticism to find out some ways to combat that critical inner voice.
You've got this Eve, let us know how you go with breaking up at it. Anastasia, can you summarize all of the latest takeaways we got from this episode sure can.
First of all, procrastination is a normal, natural, common behavior that everyone does. Second, some people might fall into the category of chronic procrastinators if they find themselves doing it too much and in excess. Third, starting is the best way to overcome procrastination, So find the smallest first step you can possibly do and build from there. And then, lastly, remember to hold compassion for yourself if you do find yourself falling into the procrastination trap.
If you have a burning question for us, there are a few ways to get in contact with us, links through in the show notes.
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
On next week's episode, we're going to be talking about different ways to grieve, what's healthy and what's not. Tune in next week.
The senior producer of But Are You Happy?
Is Tarlie Blackman, Executive producer is Naima Brown, and Social producer is Jemma Donaho.
Sound design and editing by Tina Madalov.
You can find us on Instagram and TikTok search at but Are You Happy? Pod. I'm a Shani Dante and.
I'm doctor Anastatia Heronus. The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today. If you are wanting more immediate support, you can also reach out to organizations like Lifeline or Beyond Blue.
Thanks for listening, See you next time.
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.