You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
I was watching my therapist the other day on TikTok and oh yeah, my therapist is TikTok so.
Or Mamma Mia. I'm your host, as Shani Dante. Welcome to But are you happy? Because healing isn't just a vibe check?
And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernus, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and one of the biggest challenges to my field over the last decade or so has been the rise of the influenza self development social media TikTok therapy guru.
That's somewhat of a title.
Look and look.
There are some genuinely good people who are providing genuinely good information on social media.
But not everyone is. And it's really hard for you, you, especially.
When you're really needing some help to know how to spot the difference.
Are you here to help? I absolutely am great. Let's jump in, Anastasia.
If I believed everything my algorithm told me, I would have OCD, ADHD PTSD and I need all the treatments. How is social media making your job harder?
Social media is making everyone a mental health expert. Apparently, It's definitely making my job both harder and easier.
Look, there's pros and cons.
It's making my job harder because there is a lot of misinformation out there, and I'm super passionate about dispelling myths when it comes to mental health, neuroscience, and wellbeing. So there's a lot of misinformation circulating and I think we as therapists then have to do a lot of work to undo some of the learnings that our clients
might have. But on the flip side, people are way more aware of their mental health and have greater language around talking about how they're feeling and what their well being is like.
So, has anyone ever come to you with a self diagnosis that they've kind of come to for themselves from looking at content online like TikTok?
Absolutely all the time, especially the younger generation. I often have people who come into the clinic and say, I think I have this particular diagnosis because I saw online a video of someone talking about their symptoms, and I feel like I can relate to those symptoms. A common one we're seeing at the moment is adult diagnoses of ADHD. So from a scientific perspective, we've absolutely seen an increase in how many people have been diagnosed with ADHD as adults.
And that is true and valid, but it is what's out there circulating at the moment, and so a lot more people are actually coming into the therapy room saying that they think they have ADHD based on information and content that they've consumed online. Now, sometimes that might actually be the case, and if so, great they've got this new information and they're in a better position to be
able to help themselves. But there's also a lot of cases where people are coming in thinking that they have something like ADHD when actually their symptoms, once we do an in depth clinical assessment, are more aligned with something like anxiety or trauma.
So with the clients that you have seen that have coming to the clinic and they've given themselves a self diagnosis and you've run the tests essentially, and they may not have that diagnosis that they thought, how do they react to that? Are they quite open to it? Have they been quite resistant?
I try to prep people from the outset, so as soon as they come into the therapy room from that very first session, and they tell me they think they might have a particular diagnosis for whatever reason. Maybe it runs in their family, maybe they've seen it on TikTok, maybe they read an article about it. Doesn't really matter
where the information comes from. If they have a reconceived notion, I really try to prep them to be open to other possibilities, and I'm always really validating of what people come in, saying like I'm always pleased to hear that people have tried to do their own research. And that's one of the beauties of the Internet and technology these days.
People are really well informed, but I do encourage them to keep an open mind and for us to go through the clinical process of doing in depth assessments and going through a process of what we call differential diagnosis, essentially differentiating between different diagnoses that may actually present quite similarly. If we think about things like ADHD, anxiety, trauma, those three,
for example, there are actually similar features amongst them. So just because you have one symptom doesn't that matches a particular diagnosis, doesn't mean that you have that diagnosis.
We've really got to do the digging and explore.
I read a report recently where it's a seventy three percent of young people access social media for mental health advice. So I'm not surprised that people are coming into the clinic and you know, they've already done all the research and everything like that. But what about the other side, because I think there is a lot of power in social media, and kind of to your point before you said that it's great that people are doing their own research, like, what are some of the benefits.
The benefits are that people are just way more informed and they've got what I would call, in technical terms, emotional literacy, right, they've got the language. Previous to mental health really kind of stepping into the space of being something that people commonly talk about, a lot of people didn't have the language to actually communicate what they were experiencing, and that might be emotions that they were experiencing or
other signs and symptoms that they were experiencing. Now to have language around your experience is incredibly important because you're then better able to go to a doctor, a psychologist, a therapist and tell them what's gone going on in your body and in your experience. But look, I think there's a big difference between seeking it out and sort of being bombarded with it because I know when I open my apps, whether I like it or not, I'm seeing mental health related.
Videos pop up. But it's a really high.
Proportion of people who are seeking out mental health support, and I think there could be a number of reasons as to why that is. As you said, sometimes it can be costly to see a therapist. Sometimes it can be long wait lists if you are trying to access low cost services as well. And I think in society we have an increasing awareness of how important mental health is to so many facets of our life.
For us to be.
Able to show up with our family, do a good job at work, feel like we're able to exercise and sleep well, and function in our relationships, mental health relates to all of that, and I think people are becoming more aware of the important role it plays in just their day to day life.
I find with the influencer culture it can be quite performative at times. You know, there's the retreats and the green juices, the yoga retreats.
Going to BALI. I mean, the list really is endless.
What do you think the impact is when you know people are seen these things on social media?
Does it make it worse do you know.
What, when I see that stuff on social media, I look at it, I go, Damn, that looks nice.
I wouldn't mind being there.
But I also think it misrepresents what therapy actually is. Right when I see those really nice retreats and things, they look really peaceful and relaxing, and yeah, I'd love to sit in a spa for a weekends, and you know, wouldn't that be nice for anyone? But actually, when you do therapy in the therapy room for some sort of mental health condition that you might have, it doesn't feel.
That nice, Like I'm not gonna lie.
Therapy is sometimes packaged up and sold as like this thing and you walk out of the room and you feel amazing at the end. Yes, sometimes you do, but sometimes you've been crying for forty five minutes and that doesn't feel particularly nice.
But it's certainly helpful.
So therapy, you know, we have to go through the hard stuff to come out the other end and have that really positive experience and helpful experience. But it takes hard work from both a therapist but also the client who's doing it. It's hard for them to sometimes delve into the parts of themselves and their life that are not so easy to talk about.
I find as well with that the influencer culture too. It is quite romanticized and it looks like, oh, if I go to that thing, this is going to be fixed. But in reality, like what I'm hearing, there's so much more grunt work we need to do.
Yeah, it's like the phrase gets thrown around, do the work, Yes, what does do the work mean? I don't know that doing the work is just going to a sort of SPAA retreat. Doing the work is often sitting there and unpacking the hard stuff about someone's life and about what their experiences have been.
It's important for people that are seeking mental health support to not see that as a solution. It's one of you know, it's a supplement, but it's it's not like, you know, it's not the real deal.
Yeah, it's getting the right help for the right person at the right time. And so for someone who's seriously suffering with a mental health condition, then a retreat like that probably isn't going to be what helps them through.
But if someone is burnt.
Out at work and feeling like they need a reset and a restore and a bit of kind of like fulfilling self reflection. Then that sort of retreat might be perfect for them. But it's about knowing what you need at a.
Particular point in time and kind of comes back to this point of discernment, knowing what's best for you exactly at the right time. I know that this isn't social media related specifically, but you know, I'm noticing a lot of people are getting help on chat ept these days.
What are your thoughts on that?
Mmm.
The rise of AI as the therapist, We psychologists have a lot of conversations about this. I think AI really has a place and it can do some things really well. I don't know if you're familiar with an AI program called pi PIAI yes, I love pi AI. It is like a super validating supportive I'm here to give you a hug friend. If you tell pi AI I've had a really crappy day and I'm feeling really low, it
can actually really give you some validating support right. Whether it can give you specific mental health advice or not is questionable, But in terms of wanting to sometimes just feel heard, some AI programs can do that fantastically. Those micro counseling skills as we call them.
It really is excellent because I definitely have used chat ChiPT just to soothe myself. I'm really good friends with my chat ChiPT. I'm not gonna lie.
So there's absolutely a place for AI. I think we would want to be wary about using AI in substitute of a therapist if we need one. So if someone actually is suffering from more sort of moderate to severe mental health issues, we would want to be recommending, of
course that they seek some professional help. And I don't think they're the situations at the moment where AI can really jump in and provide a substitute, but certainly for some sort of like day to day I just want to touch base and like rite out my feelings and feel like they're heard.
AI can actually do that really well.
I find this is really interesting though, because with AI it's really helpful because especially for people that may not be able to access mental health services because it can be expensive.
Like, what are your thoughts on that?
I again come back to knowing where AI fits in the bigger picture of someone getting their mental health supports right. AI can can certainly sort of sit in a pocket of that, but we don't want it to be the be all and end all of mental health support for someone, just like we don't want social media to be the be all and end all of someone's mental health kind
of guidance and support. It can absolutely serve a place and a role in someone's progress, but it's not the only thing we want them looking to.
So I've got a bit of a thorny question, and I'm trying to figure out how to word it.
In a way that is going to land.
So I feel like, with the rise of social media, and you know all these different labels that are thrown around ADHD, OCD, do you feel like people are wanting a label to feel some sense of belonging or acceptance.
I just want to get your thoughts on that.
It's a tricky question, yes, for sure.
I think I'm going to answer this in a slightly roundabout way. I think generally, as people, we want community, we want a sense of belonging, right, we don't want to feel on the outside. Many of us are also quite impressionable to the things that we see online, and the more we see something, the more we're going to
start to consider it. If I see twenty five videos as I'm scrolling on ADHD, or twenty five videos on OCD, and there's an element of that that relates for my experience, there is a good chance that I'm going.
To lean into that more.
Now I'm not saying that is a good or a bad thing, but we want to be mindful of over identifying with anything we see online because we can certainly be swayed in particular directions depending on what we consume. And this is where I come back to what we were talking about, where if you think you do relate to some TikTok videos that you've seen that talk about a particular diagnosis, bring that to a therapist.
And unpack it with them.
It could very well be the case that, yeah, you know what, you actually have had ADHD your whole life and no one ever diagnosed you, and here we are doing it. And if that's the case, well done for doing that self research. But it might also not be the case. So collect your ideas, don't hold onto them too tightly just in case they don't quite align with actually what your experience is, but take them to someone who can help you sort through them.
So it is taking more of a collaborative approach rather than funneling in being like this is what it is.
This is who I am.
Yes, in the therapy world, we have a bit of a saying, which is to the client, you are the expert in you. You know your experience best, you know your symptoms, you know your life, you know your personality better than I ever will you know you. I know psychology stuff, I know research, I know books, I know psychology, and we work together. You've got your expertise, I have my expertise, and we're going to bring them together to help you solve your problem.
After this shopbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to teach you how and when to use the advice you get from social media, but more importantly, where you can get the help you actually need. Okay, so what we know is that people aren't actually going to get rid of their phones, so algorithm is here to stay, whether we like it or not.
So we really need.
To develop skills to manage and discern the tidal wave of content constantly coming at us.
How big question.
I'm going to share two key ways to kind of reflect on social media content. One is about what am I consuming in terms of how valid it is, who's providing the information and should I listen to this person or not? And the second is about, regardless of whether it's valid or not, how do I feel when I consume that? Okay, so let's start with the first one.
So I want people to ensure that if they are looking to TikTok, Instagram, social media for mental health and wellbeing advice, that they're looking to people who are reputable in the field. Ideally, we want to look at people who are registered therapists, registered psychologists, psychiatrists, who have some sort of degree behind them that shows that what they're saying is actually based in science and evidence and research
and not just purely their opinions. We have seen the rise of a lot of mental health coaches who maybe don't really actually have any knowledge behind them or studies or research that give them kind of credibility in that space, and so we really just want to be wary about who we're consuming content from. Any psychologist or psychiatrist will have to be registered with in Australia the appropriate body.
So all psychologists are registered with OPERA, the Australian Health Practitioners Regulation Agency, and psychiatrists have the medical body that they're registered with as well. Similarly, with counselors, there's counseling bodies that they need to be registered with.
So if you actually.
Ever do want to check what someone's credentials and credibility are, you can actually go on the websites and search up to see if they're registered. So that might be taking it one step further than what people want to do.
That's something I might.
Do, but if you're ever curious, you can actually take that step for yourself. It's also important to note that the terms psychologists and psychiatrists are protected titles, so it's actually illegal to call yourself a psychologist or a psychiatrist if you're not one. On the flip side, the term counselor is not a protected title, so literally, anyone who wakes up one morning and decides they want to be a counselor can set up a TikTok or an Instagram
and call themselves a counselor. It's not a protected term unfortunately, which sucks for people who are registered counselors. Right, they've done the study, they've done the years of hard work to become registered with their counseling body, but unfortunately that term is not protected and anyone can call themselves a counselor.
So just something for people to be aware of.
I actually didn't know that about the counselor thing that's good for me to know. So then what happens if people actually enjoy watching someone's content and they may actually not be qualified.
What do you think about that?
I think everything with a grain of salt. There's heaps of content online that is general what I would call psycho education, general information about psychology and how the brain works, and how the mind works, and what emotions are. And you don't need to be a registered psychologist or psychiatrist to be able to talk about those topics. So it's not to say that people who don't have those qualifications can't provide really valuable content. I would say, take everything
you consume online with a grain of salt. Don't take it to be entirely true, even if it's coming from the most qualified person.
Right.
We want to be able to fact check.
I think in today's day and age, where misinformation can spread in so many ways, not just about mental health, but politics in the world and society, one of the skills we need to be able to learn is to do some of that research and be able to fact check for ourselves.
I create a lot of content online as do you, and you know, when we're creating that content, we're putting it out to the general public. It's not specifically tailored to one individual and knowing exactly what they need.
And I think that's important for everyone who's listening to always keep in mind, is that you could be following someone online who's got really great content that they're putting out that is valid, it's fact checked, it's really helpful, but it is always going to be that you know, TikTok influenza that therapist whoever they are speaking to a
general audience. We can't be specific when we put that content out there, and the person consuming that content might actually need something really specific or a specific application of the technique that's being talked about.
So this is where the individual, one on one.
Kind of therapy really comes into place, because that's what a therapist is there for, to help.
You apply that skill or that strategy.
Or that technique in a way that is relevant to your personal situation. The other thing that I want people to be aware of is not just the validity of the content. You can, we want to be across fact checking what we see.
But regardless of what you see, how does it make.
You feel at the end of twenty thirty sixty minutes of scrolling tiktop therapy or instagram reels, how do you actually feel after consuming that mental health information? And there is something to be said for overtherapizing yourself. Right in real life, it's a rare situation that I would recommend
people deep dive into therapy throughout the week. I wouldn't be saying to someone very often, you need to see a psychologist every single day of the week, and you need to see a psychiatrist, and you need the naturopath and the GP and the whoever else is kind of part of your recovery journey, right, maybe for some people, but look, it's a really small small percentage of people.
So there's something to be said for over consuming this information and at the end of it not feeling particularly good about ourselves because TikTok therapy will tell us all the things wrong about us and all the things we need to do to fix ourselves. But in reality, most of us are just out here living life.
We don't need that much therapy.
Do you feel like the byproduct with all this TikTok therapy out there is that we actually start diagnosing other people in our lives dot dot dot, husbands and partners and everything in between.
When you see that good in surreal and you're like, hmm, that sounds like someone I know.
Who Maybe I'll just send it to them. Yeah, you're the beauty of the share button.
Oh gosh, yes, Look, I think where many of us are guilty of that, of seeing something online and saying, hey, that sounds like someone I know. That sounds a bit familiar,
and look, maybe sometimes it is. Maybe sometimes through our consumption of social media content about mental health, we do pick up some signs and symptoms of people in our lives, and maybe that can be a really helpful thing where we see an account that's got some great information and we can share that with someone, whether it's a diagnosing them or if they already have some sort of mental health struggle, being able to provide them with some resources
we've found that can be great. But of course we want to be worry about doing that too much.
Yeah, some subtle messaging going on there. Yeah, after this shotbreak we hear from a listener who's trying to keep the good parts of social media without all the anxiety in comparison, stay with us.
Berb berb Bibby, I'm having a serious christ.
To the BRB having a crisis.
Friends, we have arrived to the segment of this program we call BRB Happy a Crisis, and today we're hearing from Riley.
I like using social media to stay in the loop and keep up with people I care about, But I'd be lying if I said it didn't mess with my head sometimes, you know, like I scroll Instagram and I see these influences living what looks like the dream, traveling all the time, perfect bodies, endless free time, and I know, like, my life's never going to be like that. I've got
a regular nine to five, five days a week. I'm not chetting off to Bali once every month, and I definitely don't look like half these people I see on my feed. It does get to me sometimes makes me feel like I'm falling behind or not doing enough. But then I come across content creators. You talk about using social media in a healthier way, muting accounts, focusing on stuff that adds value. I don't know.
I'm just stuck.
Wondering, like, who's actually giving good advice? How do I keep using these apps without constantly comparing myself and feeling like I'm not measuring.
Up Riley, I'm an advocate for many of the positive aspects that social media brings. As you said, social media is a great way to stay in the loop, keep up with what people are doing, keep in touch with people, foster connections and relationships that maybe we don't naturally kind of keep up with as easily in our day to day life. I'm all for a good sharing something on social media with a friend that I don't see that often, but I get to kind of keep connected with through Instagram.
So look, there's positives to social media, but as you've shared, there's the downsides as well, and so much comparison. Right, we can all be so susceptible to comparing ourselves to the influences of the world who are traveling to Bali every month.
Gosh, wouldn't that be nice?
I wouldn't mind a monthly trip to itsh Can we tee that up, Ashani?
Can you do it?
Put it out there?
If only?
But look, I would say, reflect on how you feel. How do you feel when you see this influencer traveling to Bali every month or with their you know, perfect potentially photoshopped ai body. You know, how do you feel when you consume all this content? Is it actually helping you in your life in any way? Or is it making you feel less than? Is it making you feel miserable?
Is it making you feel not good about yourself? How would you be feeling today if you hadn't consumed that content and if you just woke up, have your coffee, and lived a normal day. Really start to tune in on how this content is making you feel. From that point you can make some informed decisions for yourself around what you do and don't want to consume.
Unfollow the accounts.
You know.
They might seem quite glamorous and appealing and interesting to look at, but if you don't feel good at the end of it, unfollow that account. You know, there's lots of great accounts nowadays, I think that are popping up that focus on presenting the realities of life. I've seen a lot of them in the parenting space about how hard parenting can be, or about the kind of day to day mundane aspects of life that can be really quite boring and monotonous.
Sometimes there's a lot of content on social.
Media that is trying to undo the glitz and the glamour of influencer lifestyles. So look to some of that to see if that helps you feel better, but ultimately tune into your feelings again, their data points, their sources of information. Unfollow, mute the stuff that doesn't make you feel good and lean into the stuff that does.
Something I've also done which has been really helpful is on your algorithm. Like on your feed, there's an option the three dots on the side of the post that you don't.
Want to see. You click on it and then you click not interested.
So in a way, you're actually retraining your algorithm.
Perfect.
We covered a lot of ground today, did it we, Anastasia, Can you please give me a roundup of the key takeaways?
Absolutely?
First up, do not believe everything you see on the internet. Always do some extra research. Second, take time to check in with yourself and reflect on how you feel after consuming certain types of content on social media. Third, please don't overdo it with the online therapy. Everything in moderation.
And last there really isn't.
A substitute for real in per therapy with a qualified professional when you need it.
Now. Next week is an important one.
We are going to talk about people pleasing in the workplace, and why being a yes person isn't always the best strategy.
If you have a burning question, there are a few ways to get in touch with us.
Links are in the show notes.
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal history. The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Talie Blackman is our senior producer.
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
I'm a Shandy Dante, and.
I'm doctor Anastasia Hernas. The names and stories of people discussed have been changed for the purposes of maintaining anonymity. If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.
Thanks for listening.