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Yeah, that sounds so fun. I can't come though, because I have a think tomorrow where you have a thing tomorrow, but I think, what are you doing? Well, I'm just busy tomorrow, Like I just en believe no, Like we can all hang out, Like we'll just pick you up at a we can all hang out. And I don't want to fucking hang out with you tomorrow. I don't want to fucking hang out with you tomorrow. Well, why don't you just see that I was busy? You just
keep asking fucking questions. It's cold boundaries. Stop making me feel so stressed.
Or Mama Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But are you happy? Because doom scrolling is its self.
Reflection And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health. Today we are going to tackle one of the most common challenges that so many of my clients are facing. How to say no, especially to the people we love.
Well, this is a big one that this is something I see in myself and so many of my friends to especially women. Are we going to learn how to say no with our full body by the end of this episode.
One hundred percent.
This is actually one of my favorite things to teach people.
Let's get stuck in, okay, Anastasia. We hear this idea of toxic relationship a lot, but how do we actually know if we have an unhealthy dynamic with someone?
Yeah, so toxic isn't a clinical definition, rightther A toxic gets thrown around a lot, for sure, But I like to use the term sort of an unhealthy dynamic or an unhealthy relationship. And this can look like so many different things. Again, there isn't like a one size fits all answer with this. It can present in so many
different ways. But to give you a couple of examples as to what an unhealthy might look like, it might look like a relationship where there's an imbalance of power, so one person doesn't necessarily feel like their voice is heard, like they have the capacity in the relationship to say no, to speak their mind, to voice their opinion. There's some sort of imbalance in the relationship when it comes to
power dynamics. It might be that a person feels like they can't fully be themselves, their authentic self, like they have to hide parts of their identity or keep parts of themselves hidden from the other person.
So it's this idea of not being.
Fully accepted for who we are by our partner or by someone in a relationship. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that a person has to like all of us, because being accepted is different to being liked. You know, I might not like every part of someone, but I can accept them for who they are. And I guess again, coming back to this idea of I need to like I can be myself and I can have a voice. If that isn't there, then we're really looking at an unhealthy dynamic in a relationship.
Essentially, what I'm hearing is at the bottom of it. If the relationship doesn't have those key foundations of trust and safety, a lot of things can happen, which I know we'll dive into a little bit later.
Absolutely, and I love that you use the words trust and safety because when we think about what a healthy relationship looks like, or a healthy dynamic looks like on the flip side, it absolutely is one where we feel like we have that trust and that security in the relationship with someone. And the reality is we all have what we refer to in the psychology world as core emotional needs.
So we all have core physical.
Needs, right we all need water and food and shelter and protection from the elements, etc. But we all also have core emotional needs. So these are things like we all have the need secure attachment with other people. We need to feel safe and securely connected to other people in our life. We all have the need for being able to express ourselves emotionally and to have that heard
and validated by other people. And we all have the need for autonomy, for competence, for independence, to have a sense of self, to know who I am in the world and feel like I can express that freely.
And I really it's kind of extending on to expressing that freely. I think it's really interesting because when we think of unhealthy relationships and healthy relating, I feel like communication is really important. And the reality is in a healthy relationship you are going to come up against conflict and disagreements and everything like that. But I think it's around how do you move through that process?
Absolutely absolutely, and I think it's important at this point as well to differentiate between things that are never okay in a relationship versus dynamics that maybe don't suit us personally. So we never want to be in a relationship where we're consistently criticized, put down, called names by our partner or by a friend, or by anyone we're in some sort of friendship or relationship with. You know, there are certainly some no goes that we don't want to accept.
But then there's also the other side where the way I show up in the world might just be very fundamentally different to how someone else shows up in the world, and that creates a lot of friction and tension and conflict. And it doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong. It just means that the dynamic doesn't work as seamlessly as we might like it to.
So obviously, for our purposes today, let's drill down on how to say no, specifically to people we are actually in some sort of relationship with, you know, that can be family, partners and friends.
Yeah. Absolutely.
I have a great example that comes to mind of someone I worked with.
We'll call her Rebecca.
And she found herself in a really challenging dynamic with her mom, the kind of mother daughter relationship is one that I and that I hear about a fair bit.
I'm not gonna lie in the therapy room.
Where there are certain expectations sometimes placed on a daughter to show up in certain ways, whether that be how she kind of presents herself in the world.
So this person I worked with, Rebecca, had.
A lot of expectations from mom as to how she should look, what she should wear, how she should interact with other people, but also how she should contribute as an adult to the family, how she should help out, how she should help take family members to doctor's appointments and help them with the groceries and the shopping, and you know, be available for all the family lunches and dinners.
So there was just a lot of expectations placed on her, and she really struggled to figure out how to maintain her own independence and identity and life whilst also keeping that relationship with her mom. Because of the end of the day, it's not like she wanted to cut mum off. She wanted a happy, healthy relationship with her, but just struggle to navigate that.
Okay, so there's a lot of Rebecca's tuning in today. Why is it that we're so inclined to say yes.
This is a great question because again it comes back to biology and what we're hardwired. I know last week we were talking about emotions and how those are sort of biologically ingrained in us. This desire to say yes or the desire to not say no is biologically ingrained in us. And I'll explain why from an evolutionary perspective. If we think back to the caveman days, it was really important for us to be part of the pack for the survival of ourselves and survival of the species.
We needed to be part of the broader group. And if we weren't, if we were isolated, we were more vulnerable to threats, would be more likely to be eaten by a tiger or a lion, or we'd be more vulnerable in life, and it would be harder to survive. So we have this ingrained sense of wanting to do what we need to do to stay connected with others. Nowadays, fast forward, how many hundreds and thousands of years, we can survive pretty easily without that desire and ingrained need
to be so connected to other people. Right on a physical level, we can survive, but because it is so primal that part of us that wants to stay connected. We find it quite hard to say no, and we find that we are more inclined to say yes sometimes when we actually do mean no.
It's interesting when you say that, because I'm thinking about how there's so many times where I actually want to say no, but I say yes. But then in my body, I'm actually feeling all these different sensations, Like, I know you're talking about the biology of things. Is what's going on in the body, Like is there actual physical symptoms.
Exactly in what you describe where we yes, but we actually mean no. We feel that tension, right, And again I come back to emotions are sources of.
Data and information.
If we're feeling that tension in the gut, in our body somewhere, I would say to listeners, tune into that feeling because it's telling you something. It's giving you some sort of message that there's this conflict internally happening within you.
So what is the impact of when we say yes too much?
It often means that we end up over committing. So we might be saying yes to too many things and then we're over committed.
But the downside of that is that maybe we.
Don't end up having time for the things that actually we really want to do, the things that align with our values and that are important to us in our life. So for everything we say yes to, we essentially sacrifice something else. We only have so much time in the day and so much kind of energy that we have to work with through the week. So by saying yes to certain things, we're also saying no to others. And the things we say no to might actually be quite important to us.
And I think it's really great that you're touching on values again, because I know we spoke about that last week and the importance of values and how it's needed in decision making, but also how it's really relevant in relationships as well, and how we communicate absolutely.
And the other downside of saying yes too often to things that maybe we don't really want to or don't feel inclined to, is that over time, we can inadvertently send ourselves a message that our needs are not important, that my needs are not valuable or as.
Important as others.
And it's actually a way in which I somehow lose respect for myself if I'm not able to communicate to someone else the no or communicate to someone else what's important to me and what I need time for, I'm actually disrespecting myself in the process.
It also kind of feels like self betrayal too.
Hmmm.
Yes, the idea of sol betrayal is a really big one and I think a really important one for us to unpack, because it really is this notion that we don't give ourselves the time and the respect to fully explore what's important to us and communicate that to others, right, because there's something to be said for we need to show and teach others how we want to be treated.
So if we show up in a relationship where we're constantly saying yes to everything, unless we actually tell that person no, sometimes they're not going to know that we're saying yes but meaning no. Right, So they're just going to continue treating us and acting in the way that they are in the relationship because they don't know any different.
There really is an onus on us to be able to communicate with others how we want to be treated, how we want to fit in terms of a dynamic in a relationship, and what we want from others.
And it kind of feels like with like the flip side of self betray is taking like it's self responsibility, Like it is our responsibility at the end of the day to be able to communicate that. And I'm interested too, because I know Rebecca. You know that's a mother daughter dynamic. Like have you seen other kinds of relationships where these kind of behaviors are playing out.
Absolutely, so I use the mother daughter dynamic as a as a common one. But we see it play out amongst friends. You know, we might have a friend who's constantly asking something from us. Maybe it feels a bit like a one way friendship where the one who's constantly trying to reach out and organize things with them, or they're constantly asking us for things. We see this in friendships, we see it in sibling dynamics, we see it in romantic relationships. It can really play out in any kind
of relationship where there's some degree of intimacy. And when I say intimacy, I mean emotional intimacy. Self sacrificing is also a really important part of this conversation because we might find ourselves in situations where we genuinely feel like other people's needs more important than ours. This is what self sacrificing comes down to this idea that I need to give and give to others in order to feel
like I'm a good person. And if I don't do that, then I feel really bad and guilty about who I am in relationships.
Oh gosh, I can definitely speak to self sacrificing and I can just get out my scroll of all the times I've done it, and I definitely know that this is so common among so many women, and I know for me. I think for me, I'm naturally someone that does want to put my needs in the backseat and be of service to the people that I love most. And I remember recently I was going through a really hard time emotionally and I just had to try and
take care of myself. But I remember getting a miscall from one of my good friends who I know is really struggling as well. And it was this moment because I had a friend of mine who was really honest with me recently. She said, Shany, you need to actually put yourself first and not keep sacrificing yourself, and that was hard to hear, but also I really trust her wisdom. So I remember in that moment when I saw that
miscall from a friend. I just sent her a message and I just said, hey, look I can't chat right now. I'm really in it. Maybe just send me a voice message for now and I'll give you a call back later. And that was really hard, because it is it is a skill, you know, especially when you've been so programmed to go the other way. It takes time.
But I want to pick up on something you said.
Yeah, because you made this comment about putting yourself first, right, and we hear this all the time. We've got to put ourselves first, you know. Don't just put other people's needs first, put yourself first. And I almost want to reframe that. And I think your example is a great one, because did you put yourself first or did you put
yourself as equal to the other person? Like from what I hear you're describing, you respected yourself and what you needed, and you respected what the other person was wanting from you, what your friend was wanting, which was to have some degree of communication and connection. So I don't know that you like necessarily put yourself first, And I feel like people can rebel against that. Its a bit of a selfish thing to do, but we can certainly put ourselves as equal.
Yeah, I actually never heard it like that before. Now that you've said it, I'm like, oh, that's going to stick with me because it is a bit of a reframe there. And also it's a bit like when you're on the aeroplane. It talks about you can put your oxygen mask on first, but hear it all the time, put your own oxygen mask before you put someone else's. But also what you're communicating is, hey, I need to have this space for me so then I can be better and show up in the world and be a
better friend to you. After the shortbreak, doc do Anastasia is going to teach you exactly how to say no to loved ones in a healthy way. Stay with us, Adasasia, How did you teach Rebecca how to reset that dynamic with her mum and how do we learn how to do this with the relationships in our life without burning any bridges.
The first thing I taught Rebecca, and the first thing I would recommend to all our listeners who want to set some boundaries.
Is to learn how to not give an.
Answer in the moment. So when someone makes a request from us, it's a really important skill for us to be able to kind of say I need to get back to you or I can't give you an answer right now. And in the case of Rebecca, she often felt a lot of pressure and obligations from her mom,
so she really did want to maintain that relationship. It was really important for her to have a close relationship with her mom, so she felt that pressure in the moment to just sort of say yes, okay, I'll be at that event, I'll be at the family lunch, I'll take you to the shops on the weekend. You know, yes, I'll do all these things. So the first thing we actually practiced was how to say, I'll have to check.
And get back to you, okay, I need you to give us a script. How do we exactly say no.
Yes okay.
So first up, when we get the request, we want to try and say I'll have to get back to you right And so this might sound something like, firstly, nurturing the relationship. Always nurture the relationship if it's an important one to you, let the person know that. So if Rebecca's mom is asking her to have lunch on the weekend with you know, mum and the extended family, and Rebecca's really not quite sure if she.
Wants to do that.
When Mom calls and asks, Rebecca could say something like, look, Mom, this sounds really lovely. I love spending time with the family. I'm just not sure if right now I'm going to be able to commit to that for this weekend. I'm going to need to just check a few things and get back to you.
But thanks for asking, and I'll let you know.
Right So, I want to step away from this idea of us being like it's a no, like it's a hard no to you know, no is a complete sentence. Yes, no is a complete sentence, but it can come across more beneficial to the relationship if we can sort of pad that with nurturing the relationship. So first delay giving a response, then I would recommend that, you know, at some point Rebecca gives Mam a call back or texts
her back in some way, again noure the relationship. Hey Mom, I know you asked me to join you guys for lunch on the weekend, and it sounds like you're going to have a really lovely time. I would have liked to be there, but unfortunately I'm just not going to be able to make it this weekend. I really appreciate you reaching out and you know, offering for me to come, but it's just not.
Going to work with my schedule. I'm really sorry.
So it's really interesting because these are really great. But I'm also thinking about even in the first steps, if you get backlash straight away and the like I mean with Rebecca's mom, I'm just saying hypothetically whims of Rebecca's mom felt really offended. She's like, how what do you mean you need to go away? Like, because she's noticing a difference in the dynamic, right, So it can bring up a lot for other people, like how do you handle that?
I talk about this notion or technique of being a bit of a broken record, right, because these are the instances where we end up saying yes when we actually meant no, when we feel the pressure, when we feel like someone's guilt us to say yes to something when we really don't want to. So I talk about this idea of being a broken record, and we can do this really nicely, but it's literally just repeating ourselves again and again. So it might be something like I hear
your mom, I know you really wanted me to come. Unfortunately, I'm just not going to be able to make it. I get it, Mom, I know you would have really liked me there. Unfortunately it's just not going to happen this weekend. Yeah, Mom, I know, but unfortunately I'm just not going to be able.
To make it.
So really just sticking to your guns and very kindly just repeating the same thing over and over.
I really love that because the way that you're saying it is kind of what you're saying around nurturing the relationship, and you're validating Rebecca's mum's experience where she might feel hurt. So it's like, how do you do both? Which I really love? So tell us what the next step is?
Yes, okay, So the final step is the negotiation, right, and this doesn't have to be the final step, right, No, I can't come to lunch.
Might be the final step.
But if the relationship is important to us, we want to nurture it and we don't want to burn those bridges. It might be for Rebecca or for the person in Rebecca's shoes to think about what an alternative might be that actually suits her needs. So maybe Rebecca comes up with another option where she says, you know, look, unfortunately I'm not going to make family lunch this weekend, but I'd really love to see you one day through the
week for dinner. Is there a night that you're free, I'll cook some lasagna and bring it over, you know, So come up with some alternatives to be able to negotiate if our goal is nurturing that relationship.
So do you think a lot of this is influenced by society or culture.
Absolutely, we definitely see differences depending on whether people have grown up in a family dynamic or a culture that's more sort of individualistic versus collectivists. So what we see is that in those more individualistic societies and cultures, there is more of a focus on being able to say no and putting the boundaries in place, and less of a focus on repair in relationships. What we see that collectivist societies and cultures do really well is that they
focus on maintaining and repairing dynamics. The reality is that we are always going to be faced in our life with situations where we have to say no to people, where ruptures occur in a relationship. It's normal and it's natural, and part of what we need to learn is how to be able to do that and become okay with it.
So a lot of this is getting comfortable with disappointing other people.
Right.
Absolutely, we're all unique people with different ways of thinking and being in the world, and that means that we're going to face conflict in life and we're going to disappoint people sometimes.
That's just a part of it. And if we're not used to saying no or.
Asserting our needs with other people, it's probably going to feel pretty uncomfortable to start with. It's a new, different experience for us. So we might actually find ourselves feeling a little bit anxious to do it. And if that's the case, then I advise listeners go back to episode one and have a listen to how to deal with anxiety and worry if it comes.
About guilt tripping, So is that a real thing?
Absolutely, we can definitely have the experience of other people making us feel guilty. And what I want to highlight here is there is a difference between us feeling guilt and other people imposing guilt on us.
Right, I'm going to come back.
You'll probably hear me say this time and time again through our episodes that emotions serve a function, they're important.
So if I feel guilt.
If I naturally feel guilt doesn't feel pleasant, but it's an important emotion because it tells me that I've done something that goes against my moral code and my moral compass. So guilt gives us important information that we've done something that we don't feel good about, so that we can not do it again in the future and maybe try.
And make some sort of repair and amend.
That's very different to us feeling guilty because someone else has said we should or made it out as if we should be ashamed of ourselves for the decision that we've made. So it's really important in these situations for people to stop and reflect on is this guilt my own or is it guilt that someone else is putting on me?
BRB Barb Bierb, I'm having a serious Christiss BRB having a crisis.
Guys, it's time for BRB having a crisis. This is your opportunity, listeners to get Anastatia's advice and guidance on your dilemma, challenge or big live question. Today we're hearing from Ruby.
My partner's a slow riser and loves easing into the weekend. I'm the opposite up early ready to get things done, and I get restless.
If the day feels like it's slipping by. He always says, why.
Do you have to be in such a rush, But it's not about rushing, it's just how I'm wired. On top of that, he watches every football game all weekend. I'm not into it, and sometimes it feels like I'm sidelined trying to fit in my own plans. I want to support his interests, but I also want space for my own. It's tough finding a balance between spending time together but also feeling fulfilled in myself on the weekends.
Oh Ruby, this is a tough one. But I think you're not alone because I've heard a lot of people talk about this idea of individual identity versus the relationship identity, And how do I keep space for my own sense of self and who I am in the world and in the relationship while also building, developing, and nurturing the
relationship which forms an identity of its own. What I would encourage you to do is maybe, as you can predict, this involves having a conversation with your partner, but invite him into the solution right when you talk to him, share what your thoughts, feelings, and concerns are and try and do so using eye statements.
I feel this. I think that.
This tends to result in more open communication and the other person doesn't feel as defensive if we start statements with I. But what I also encourage you to do is invite him into the solution right, open up the challenge that you're facing with him, and invite him to help you find a solution. So this might be something like saying, I really value our relationship and I want us to both feel.
Good in it.
How do you suggest we go about navigating this? So you're bringing him in so it can be a collaborative approach, because, as you've highlighted, that balance between individual identity and the relationship can be a challenging one to get right.
And there's not one clear answer that's going to work every week.
It's probably going to be an ongoing conversation with an ongoing solution.
Saying no is literally such a skill. Sounds so simple, but really it's not. And Asasia, can you give us a recap of what we learned today?
Absolutely, First up, it's okay to say no. Second, we can say no to other people while still maintaining kindness and respect for the relationship. Third, if saying no feels hard in the moment, try to opt for a not right now or I have to get back to you. Lastly, by saying no, we will have times where others are disappointed or they feel let down. This is normal and
natural and a part of life. If you value the relationship, think about what else you can do to contribute to the relationship that still nurtures it while maintaining your boundary. Next week, we're tackling a biggie. It's when I hear about from so many people in my life, not just my work. We're going to be discussing the quickest and easiest way to get out of a life rust and reset when we feel like everything sucks.
If you have any burning questions, there's a few ways to get in touch with us links in the show notes.
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal history. The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Niama Brown.
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
I'm a Shani Dante, and I'm.
Doctor Anastaga Hernus. The names and stories of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation.
Brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach out to organizations beyond Blue All Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.
Thanks for listening.