You're listening to I'm onm with mea podcast.
Are Taylor Swift's fans yield Swifties in a cult? Well, let's go ahead and have a little conversation about it. What is a cult?
And do any of the Swifty behaviors look like cult behavior? A few things to keep in mind here while we're going through this, and this is an article from very Well Mind, So good stuff. Number one, cults demand intense loyalty to a strict belief system or charismatic leader. People may join cults because they desire a sense of belonging, guidance, or purpose, even though there are high personal costs.
Keep that in mind.
For mother Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante.
Welcome to But Are You Happy?
The podcast for people who journal about their feelings and then go to their therapist.
And I'm doctor Anastatia Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about happiness and mental health. Now you've probably heard terms like cult, classic or cult following thrown around, right. Maybe you've even found yourself in a group that feels a little culty, like a hardcore fandom or super intense community.
But what actually separates these groups from an actual traditional cult like where's the line?
Today, we're diving into that question, exploring what cults really are and why it can be surprisingly easy to get pulled into a high demand group because at the core of it all, it often comes down to one simple thing.
Let's get into it. So the word cult gets thrown around a lot in today's world. You hear things like cult like products, cult like culture, cult like following, and you know, it actually gets me thinking about Taylor Swift. You know, everyone loves her, obsessed with her. I feel like she's very talented, and it gets me thinking more specifically around Swifties, like, are the Swifties in a cult?
We're going there, We are going.
To starting straight there.
We are.
Well, look, there's some features of Swifties that are similar to people who are perhaps part of cults.
Right.
I wouldn't say that the Swifties are in a cult. Yeah, but it's as you say, like that sort of like cult like following. We use that. We use the cult, the word cult in so many different ways, which speaks to a lot of things that we'll get into. But look, there are some features that resemble cults. Right, So Swifties love Taylor Swift they see her as the goddess, the queen,
the be all and end all. They're involved in rituals like the friendship bracelets, even like dressing like her, and you know, buying all the merch buying all the records and everything. So there's a real devotion from Swifties to their queen, Taylor Swift. So from that lens, we see similarities with cults right where there is usually a leader or a figure that people are really devoted to. The difference here is that Swifties hopefully aren't being forced into
following Taylor Swift. You know, they're doing so voluntary. They're not feeling like they're going to be punished or there's going to be some sort of negative consequence for them if they decide to move away from the Swifty fandom and decide that they don't want to be a Swifty anymore.
Yeah, it's interesting too because it gets me reflecting around, Oh am I swifty?
Like, I don't really know.
I don't think, I don't I'm not a swifty.
I think if you're a Swifty, you wouldn't be questioning if you're a swifty.
Yeah, and I don't think i'd be getting defensive with this conversation, you know what I mean, because I feel like just I mean, I see it all the time in my socials, Like you know, I have a lot of women on my Instagram, so it's just people are obsessed with her, and for me, it's it's quite beautiful to witness being like, oh wow, everyone gets so excited, Like I know when her latest album came up, the Life of a show Girl and how people had listening
parties and we're getting really excited about the countdown for the launch, and I'm like.
Oh wow.
I appreciate how people get really excited about it, but there is also an element for me where.
I feel a little bit excluded.
Because I'm like, oh, like I want to be a part of it, because it's like that fomo element. But also I'm like, oh, but then I'm just trying to become something I'm not. I'm not going to listen to her whole album straight away.
There's definitely that feeling of all or nothing, right because I have a similar feeling like I can appreciate Taylor Swift and her music amazing story. Yes, yeah, I wouldn't call myself a Swifty. I'm not the first to listen to the new record or go to a listening party.
Yah.
And actually there's a part of me that almost wants to push back against swift It's like, no, well, I'm not going to do that, or I don't want to be a part of that, because it feels like if you're in it, you have to be fully in it, you have to be fully committed, you have to know all the songs, the meaning behind every lyric. Ye. And I don't know that I want to commit that much.
Yeah, it's so funny, isn't it.
And it's interesting like when I know, we're sort of kind of loosely talking about this in the context of cults, right, But the difference with the cult, as we're saying, is that you won't have this sort of negative pushback or any criticism or like you know, you know, you're not
being forced to kind of follow along. But I will say that what we do see with swifties is they are they can be quite critical of those who are not on the Tailor Swift bandwagon, and there have sort of been these quite tense exchanges we see them online.
If people are not really kind of a big Tailor Swift fan, that swifties run to Taylor Swift's defense, and so it does then make it feel like it's hard to sit in the middle ground of like oh yeah, like you know, her music's great, you've sort of got to be in or out. Yeah, and that's maybe where we get more of those like cult like flavors coming through.
Yeah, totally.
So it's interesting because when it comes to being a swifty right, like, it feels like you need to you know, buy buy the vinyl or buy the merch to feel like you're part of it. So is that kind of an element of something that is cult like, like you have to buy.
More to feel more a sense of belonging.
Yeah, that's a really interesting point because I yes, the difference between having to sort of purchase things and sort of give money forward to feel like you're part of something adds a different element as opposed to being part of a group where you feel like you can belong and have that sense of connection on a broader level without needing to spend money to be a part of
that group. So that sort of capitalist element, does you know, Taylor Swift has received some criticism for this that you know, it's not just about the kind of connection and community she creates, But there is really this sort of capitalist
lens there as well that's important to consider. I still don't know that that necessarily means it's a cult, yes, but it does add another layer where I guess if we're asking people to buy into something, there's going to be people who can't afford that, and it might mean that they then feel excluded. And look, Taylor Swift is not the first person to kind of have this celebrity status with this fandom behind her. You know, we saw in the days of Justin Bieber the believer.
Yes, are you a believer?
I'm not. I'm not a Swift ear of believer. And I think like the Beatles had Beatlemania, And actually I was doing like I was doing research into sort of like big celebrities or bands that have had these big sort of followings and not just followings in the sense that you know, people really like to listen to their music, but really kind of get behind them with this sense of fandom. And I was doing research and it said, you know, back even to the days of like classical music.
So Richard Wagner wrote the Ring Cycles and apparently he as you do dedicated a shrine to himself, like when he died, and the people actually go to the shrine and like listen to his music and engage with his music. But it's just like real commitment to it. That's quite interesting when you see people go to quite extreme lengths to be a part of something.
And it's interesting because I feel like a lot of the things that we've spoken about in terms of cults have been in a more or non traditional way.
But what actually is a cult.
There's no actual, one single definition of what a cult is. But I was doing a bit of research and there are some common themes to think about how we would describe a cult like group. So occult is usually a social group that has some quite unusual and extreme beliefs. So these might be religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, or kind of philosophical beliefs about meaning and life. They can sort of be these quasi religious groups that are quite secluded
from the outside world. So we see these themes of seclusion and isolation, and there's usually some sort of authoritarian structure to them. So there's an individual person who is a leader, who can often be quite charismatic, but holds a lot of power.
Yeah, it feels like the charismatic leader is really the foundation of a cult.
Right, Yes, often the person we hear a lot about when we hear about famous cults. So for example, Jonestown, the followers had this intense devotion to Jim Jones and this actually resulted in the mass suicide that happened at Jonestown because they were so devoted to what he instructed them to do.
Well, yeah, I mean, you see this across history, right, I know. I mean there's so many Netflix documentaries out there, and one that I think about is Wild Wild Country, and I don't know if you have you watched it.
I haven't watched it, Yeah, but I've heard a little.
About it about it, So it's based around this one spiritual leader, Barguan Osho is kind of his other name, and essentially it's like he started a movement in Indiana Ashram and then exploded. He started getting global interests. Then they moved to Oregon in the US, and then again it started to grow and grow and grow, and then to the point where you know, it's like I see this pattern where it tips over and it doesn't become
it's start to good intentions. You know, it was initially about spirituality, self expression, you know, finding yourself, which sounds really lovely. But then I think and it's like, as it grows, it's like that leader gets more power, and it's amazing what happens when power and ego come together, Like it actually can be really destructive if those charismatic leaders don't have structures in place, you know, they don't have accountability, and it's such a massive responsibility and I get very.
Like passionate about it. I'm not getting a bit emotional.
Yeah, I think it's something I'm really passionate about because you just see so many people that give away their power to someone that you know, like may not be using it for good intention.
Takes advantage totally essentially, and takes advantage of other people's vulnerability, other people's desire for belonging and connection and the needs.
That they have. Yeah, yeah, totally.
It's interesting how you talk about starting with good intentions, because I think there can be I mean, this is part of the lure of cults, right, Like, no one or at least not many people are going, Hey, that's a cult, I'm going to join it.
Yeah, tonally like that.
Maybe there are a few, but that's not kind of the common trajectory into a cult. It's often people seeing something that feels like it feels some need in them, it feels like it's got good intentions behind it, And who knows, maybe some of these cult leaders at points in time have had good intentions. I think others are probably quite narcissistic or have you know, traits of psychopathy and know how to manipulate people to sort of follow them.
So we probably have spectrums of individuals there, but it's like no one sort of just jumps in, going yes, I know this is a cult, and I'm jumping two feet in. It's a slow progression where people are coerced into it.
Yeah, And it does get me thinking around like why why people are vulnerable to these kind of groups, And I know you kind of started to speak to it a little bit.
I think as society has changed over the years, where we find meaning, connection, belonging, a kind of philosophical understanding around life, these things have changed. We've moved away from sort of traditional religion, which has historically provided those frameworks for a lot of people. Now we have more people who are not religious but are looking for that same feeling of connection, but also meaning and purpose. And I think this is where these structures and organizations and cult
like groups fill a need. You know, we think about the psychology of belonging. Everyone wants to belong Everyone wants to feel part of something bigger than themselves, to feel connected to other people. And when these cult like groups are structured in the right ways, they can really feel like they feel those needs.
It's so true, and I think it just comes back to like how when we start to externalize our power and we think, oh, me being part of this makes me feel good, makes me feel worthy, that's when like that's when things like that happen. But then it's the journey that we all go on, especially when you've been a part of organizations or groups like that is oh wait, that was always within me, Like I can access that
without it, you know. I think it's great to be part of communities that are healthy, but when it's taken away your identity and your individuality, like that's something that we've got to inquire into.
You're forced to conform totally part of the group, which is different to a community which sort of has open arms and says come, come enjoy, come share, come be part of what we're doing here and still be yourself totally, versus cult like groups that say, leave the parts of your identity that don't fit this structure behind and change them to fit how.
We work totally.
One of the key features that cult like groups will lean into is the isolation. So if you are part of this group, you essentially need to isolate yourself from other people who are not part of the group.
Yeah, with that, is that because it's seen as a threat.
That's mainly what it is.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's a threat to people I guess questioning what's happening within the group and perhaps being provided with outside information or perspectives from other people that might challenge or question why they're actually part of this group and if it's actually that healthy for them if we isolate people. We see this in abusive relationships as well. Yeah, people often become isolated from others because it's a way to maintain power and control over someone.
So why is it so hard to disengage from these kind of groups. Is that kind of where Stockholm syndrome comes into it.
That's an interesting question. Look, there's a lot of factors
that keep people stuck in cults, right. Even sometimes when they have their own doubts that might arise, people will sort of still stay a part of these groups because, you know, if they've been cut off from their family and friends and they don't feel like they have people that can maybe help them get out, or they don't feel like they have a clear sense of what their life might look like if they leave, if the cult is what they've known for a period of time, there
can be so many factors that stop them from being able to remove themselves. Plus often these groups have, you know, spread messages that create fear about leaving. So it's not just finding it hard to leave, but you know, if I leave, I might feel threatened, or I might feel like I'll be hunted down, or I might have messages that you know, demons will you know, get me or whatever. Whatever the messages are, they've often been you know, quite
strongly ingrained into the psyche of the individual. Stockholm is a little bit different. We often think of Stockholm syndrome in the context where someone has very suddenly found themselves in a situation where they are a victim, and you know, Stockholm syndrome is thought more of actually as a survival mechanism to develop some sort of kind of bond or
relation with the person who's taken them as captive. So it's a little different in terms of how it plays out to someone who may enter and find themselves stuck in a cult.
Right, So does love bombing happening cults?
Something similar to love bombing can happen. So if someone finds themselves in, you know, somewhat of a vulnerable situation, they find a group that feels like it offers some sort of meaning and connection for them, they may feel like they're being love bombed, or they might get this very strong and intense message of I want to say hope, you know, like there is a bigger purpose and a lot of kind of like mantras or messaging around that yes,
and a bit of like you have been chosen. God has chosen you to come into the group, so feeling special to be a part of the group.
Yes.
So it's a little bit different in terms of like love bombing in relationships is more about that individual person, like you are so amazing, you are so wonderful, you are so beautiful, You're the best person I've ever met. In cults, it's more like you are special. We see something in you, God sees something in you. You have been brought here for a reason. We have the answers. So it's but it's got that same flavor of it being very strong. Yeah.
And it's interesting too because it kind of comes back to something you were talking about earlier around how you know why it can be harder to leave, right because the associations to it is like, wow, but this leader did help me with my you know, you know, my career, or helped me with my sense of purpose, Like there's still that loyalty, right, being like, oh, like you feel guilty, right, And that's why that I can imagine that would be part of it being harder to step away because of
all of those factors and that fear of that being weaponized against you when you do want to leave. So it is really confusing.
Yes, Yes, And the reality is it's probably not a one hundred percent negative experience for the personally. Otherwise they wouldn't they wouldn't be a part of it. They would have they wouldn't have started or gone through that progression. There will have been moments at time where they will have felt seen and heard and valued and like they
have that sense of connection and belonging that they're seeking. Yeah, the other thing that I'm thinking of here that's important to consider is a psychological phenomenon called groupthink.
M never heard of it.
So this kind of dates back to like the nineteen fifties. There were experiments that were done that exemplify how group think works, and I'll tell you about in a moment, But essentially, group think is this idea that when we are part of a group, we have a natural desire for harmony over conflict. And so what this means is that people will sometimes when they find themselves in a group situation, they might find themselves agreeing to things they
wouldn't normally agree to. So the people around us and the decisions they make can actually influence the decisions we make or we agree to. So there's a famous study called the Ash Conformity Studies. So the researcher's surname is Ash. So if anyone's interested, ascch and this was done in the nineteen fifties. And basically, a person goes in for an experiment and they think they're in a room with other people who are also doing the same experiment. Actually
the other people are actors ah yes. And so what happens is there's a task to do, and it's a really basic simple task. It's actually advertised as a visual perception task, whereas it's actually an experiment about decision making. And so you're shown a picture that has different lines on it, four different lines, and all you have to do is say which of the two lines are actually
the same length. So what they do is they do two rounds of this where all the actors give the correct answer, and then they ask the experimental participant last and they give the correct answer as well. On the third round, all the actors give the wrong answer. Now, this is a really obvious easy task because you can see there's four lines, two of them are the same length. Like, it's not hard, it's not hard, yeah, right, But all
the actors give the wrong answer. And what they found is about seventy five percent of the time the participants who's going after all these actors will also give the wrong answer wow, because they doubt themselves and don't want to be the only person who's saying, hang on, guys, that doesn't look like what the answer is wow, Which
is kind of scary to think about. Really, If like people are willing to do that in a very basic task where we're looking at sort of the length of lines a simple task, how likely are people to be to be conforming with what other people say on more complex and nuanced issues.
So true, and it's interesting because it just gets me thinking more about like even you're talking about the doubt piece and how when we are in an environment where we are constantly starting to doubt ourselves, like that's a red flag, right being like, huh, really interesting, I'm feeling this kind of dissonance, like people saying one thing, but I am feeling something different. It's learning to lean into that voice more. Yes, as well, because there's so much wisdom in that. Yeah.
Absolutely, So with cults.
These days, how does that show up in like an online space?
Well, like many things, the online world provides the potential for things to be amplified in ways that just didn't exist before we had the internet. And so we do see that a lot of people, a lot of young people may find themselves radicalized or pulled into these high demand organizations or cult like groups, and they are sometimes
very strategically identified. It could be through video games, it could be through social media, through online chats, and blogs where they interact with people they are identified as being vulnerable in some way, perhaps isolated or lonely, and they again find this sense of kind of belonging with people online who may provide answers to the things that they're
questioning in their life. The way that algorithms work nowadays is that if you have some sort of skewed or extreme beliefs, the algorithm will feed you more information that aligns with those beliefs and views that you have. So it's really quite dangerous in that sense because you don't actually get the normal spectrum of beliefs presented to you on a particular topic. You get a very skewed portion, and that can very much influence the path that people go down.
After the break.
Doctor Anastasia is going to tell us what red flags we should look at for to make sure we're not being sucked into a cult. Stay with us, So, Anastasia, what are the red flags that we should be looking out for to.
Spot a cult.
This is a big topic.
It's a big it's big and all's important, right, yeah, yes, absolutely, So I'm going to provide some key identifiers of cults.
If you do feel like you're talking with people or a group and you've got some question marks or red flags in your mind, have a think about these following things. So the first one is a sense of authoritarian control. So this is essentially the idea that a cult hinges
on encouraging maximum dependency on the cult. If you are talking with people who are part of a group and they are encouraging you to leave all facets of your life behind and have maximum dependency on them and the people in the group, you may have some red flags popping up in your mind. Ultimately, you know, people who are in a cult often feel incapable of living their lives outside of that cult. So it's this very all or nothing feel and the key word maximum dependency.
It's interesting too because it's kind of like the world of right and wrong, being like, oh, it's wrong to still have these aspects of your life.
It's right to be a part of.
This yes, yes, yes, yes, you're right. Very clear, black and white, divisive sort of thinking exactly. So the second thing to be wary of is if people are encouraging you to cut contact with your family, with your friends, with your work, with just sort of people in your
day to day life. This sense of isolation is a key factor that we see in a lot of cults that keep people stuck in cults, and it sort of removes them from being able to consider other perspectives or hear from their friends and family as to ideas and beliefs that might be contrary to what's being discussed in the cult. So big red flags if you're being encouraged to isolate yourself. The third thing I'd encourage people to look out for is a strong sense of peer pressure.
So and cult like groups will often use rituals and kind of intense group activities to bond people, but this can come with a lot of peer pressure that you must participate in these activities. You must participate in these rituals to be a part of the group. So again we find these very extreme, black and white all or nothing approaches. One more thing for people to look out
for is a culture around fear and shame. So this builds on the kind of peer pressure and the requirement to sort of give yourself to the group, and it comes with an added layer of if you don't do that, you will be shamed, and sometimes this actually involves sort of public shaming and public humiliation. We hear stories from cults where if a member sort of deviates from what the cult is preaching, that they are publicly shamed in
front of the group. Public shaming and shaming is a great manipulative tool to make people conform horrible feeling shamed. So if you are talking with group members and there is this flavor of fear and shaming coming through, that would be a red flag as well.
I think it's really great we're having this conversation around the red flags, and it's actually getting me thinking for anyone tuning in where they might be like, oh, tick tick, Like I'm seeing these red flags because I can imagine that can be a bit of a confronting space to be in. Right, So it's like, what could be a next step for people, because I know that sometimes there's so much shame and embarrassment and fear around what to do next, especially with a conversation around cults.
Yeah, yes, I think the most important thing is what someone decides to do next, do it safely. Yeah. You know, different different sort of groups and cults will have different levels of risk attached to them, and some groups, some cults might feel easier to step away from in the sense that there feels like there's less risk than others,
So ensure safety when taking the next steps. I would encourage people to try to reconnect, if possible again with safety, with the previous support systems that they had, So that might be family, that might be friends, the people that
you know you may have cut off. It's surprising often if we do try and reach out to someone for some help and for some guidance, even if we've previously sort of cut them out of our life or taken some space and distance from them, those people can usually be quite willing to be there for us in a time of need. Definitely, so I would encourage people to consider that. Also, there are health professionals like psychologists who are specialists in working with people who've been in cults
or perhaps in some sort of high demand organization. So seeking out someone who specifically understands how these groups work and why it is so difficult to step away from them sometimes is really important as well.
Yeah. Absolutely, Now, I know we unpacked a lot of red flags, but how do we actually protect ourselves from cults?
This is good again, I'm going to come back to the support system. Support systems are so key when it comes to protecting ourselves. Stay connected to your support system. Be wary of anyone who's telling you to disengage from people in your life, because those strong connections and those existing connections you have in your life will be very protective for you. So stay connected to people. The second
one is question things you know. Cults often thrive on a blind obedience, an obedience where we don't question anything, So be willing to question things. And if questioning things is shut down. There's a difference between you questioning things and people giving answers or providing answers, or being willing to engage in a discussion, versus shutting down your curiosity.
Yeah.
Yeah, be wary of anyone who wants to shut down your curiosity or shame you for being curious. Yeah'll treat you as if it's a bad thing for questioning things. We all question things. We want to understand things fully, so there's nothing wrong with that. If anyone's making you feel like that's a wrong choice or the wrong pathway, some red flags there. So that's a way to protect yourself by questioning things.
After the break, an anonymous friend shares a dilemma about trying to help their friend who they think might be in a cult. Stay with us, Berb Hearb Barb.
I'm having a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
We've reached that time in our episode where we answer a question or dilemma from one of you our listeners, Anastasia, this one comes from someone anonymous.
So here's the situation.
I have a friend who's gotten really involved in this group that, to be honest, kind of feels like a cult, or at least something high control and intense. At first, it seemed like just another wellness or personal growth thing.
That now she's.
Constantly quoting their leader, cutting people off you disagree, and spending.
All her time at their events.
When I gently raised some concerns, she got super defensive and said, I just don't get it. I'm worried, but I also don't want to come off as judgmental or push her further into it. How do you support someone who might be into deep when they convinced they've finally found the truth?
That's so hard, really hard.
Anonymous. You are a good friend for caring about this person in your life. One of the things I'm going to suggest to you is where possible stay connected with this friend of yours. If we think about often what drives people into these high demand groups, it is some sense of connection and belonging and those groups providing meaning
and purpose. By staying connected with your friend, you have the opportunity to provide her with connection and belonging outside of the group, and this will be really protective for her so that she doesn't hopefully end up deeper and deeper inside of this group. So I would say, where possible, stay connected. Your connection is going to help protect her
in the long run. The other thing you could also consider doing is talking to a mental health professional about this situation so that they can advise and guide you around the specific circumstances that you and your friend find yourself in.
Good luck, Anonymous, Anastasia, This one was a big episode. Can you give us the main takeaways from it?
Yes?
I can.
First of all, cults and high demand organizations use many coercive and manipulative tactics to pull people in. Second, a drive for connection, meaning and belonging can result in people entering cult like groups. And lastly, protect yourself from cults by staying connected to your support system and being willing to question what you're told.
If you have a burning question for us, there are a few ways to get in contact with us. Links are in the show notes.
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
Next week's episode is all about introversion, extraversion, and somewhere in between. We unpack social anxiety and help you better understand where you might sit on this scale, so tune into that.
The senior producer of What Are You Happy? Is Charlie Blackman, the.
Group executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is Jemma Donaho. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok. Search at but Are You Happy Pod to find us, I'm a Shany Dante.
And I'm doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we have links for more resources in the show notes. You can also reach out to organizations like Lifeline or Beyond Blue if you're needing more immediate support.
Thanks for listening, See you next
Time, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on