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Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens and today's episode is a particularly special one. We have the Australian exclusive for a long form podcast interview with New York Times best selling author an internationally acclaimed guru,
Deepak Chopra. I can almost guarantee that, so where deep in the abyss of your phone photos you have a screenshot of a Deepak Chopper quote, or there is some piece of wisdom of his that you have tried to pass off as your own, thinking that you're actually quite clever and profound when you really just heard his words at some point. Over the last few decades, he has long been known as a pioneer of New Age spirituality, and he has long advocated for the benefits of meditation.
He encourages people to expand their awareness and their consciousness, to really feel the awe of the mystery of our existence, to see obstacles as opportunities in disguise, and to pursue above anything, including happiness a sense of inner peace. Now, I am very much on the record as not being a very woo woo person, and I often flinch at anything that isn't based in hard science. I can think that it's a bit flimsy, a bit silly. I sometimes look at ideas like manifestation and I think that they
haven't been interrogated enough. I have a bit of a visceral reaction to it. And some of Chopper's ideas about alternative medicine are quite controversial, but this interview wasn't about discussing them. The truth is, I opened Deepak Chopper's most recent book, which is called Digital Drama, How AI Can Elevate Spiritual intelligence and Personal well Being, and I could not stop reading. Maybe this book and these ideas came to me at the exact right time, which I'm sure
is a sentiment that Deepak Chopper would agree with. He's a big propose in their being meaning in these sorts of things. But his ideas about purpose and having a path and his optimism about AI, which is the thing that is just going to change the future of humanity in the immediate future, those ideas were utterly compelling and I just kept reading. So here is my conversation with the man who's written over eighty books that have been translated into over forty languages, so his ideas are just
known all throughout the world. He's been interviewed by Oprah, so maybe that was the second best interview that he's ever had after me Ah. He has taught Madonna how to meditate, and he has informed how so many of us have come to think about our own well being, satisfaction and happiness. He is deepact Chopra Deepak. I always begin this show by asking our guests the same question, which is did you grow up in a happy family and was happiness prioritized?
I did grow up in a very happy family. My father was an army doctor, my mother was a storyteller, and they were always celebrative about everything, looked at every challenge as an opportunity, and enjoyed life basically, do.
You remember as a kid or an adolescent having any challenges to happiness. Do you remember was there anything that you found you contended with in terms of well being or satisfaction or finding meaning.
As I mentioned, my mother was a storyteller, and every time before she put me to bed, she would actually sometimes sing or read a story and then stop it at what we call a cliffhanger. Everything was going wrong, and then she would say, I wanted to dream up the rest of the story, make sure it has a happy ending, and also make sure it's a love story. So I got to reframe every challenge as a love story with a happy ending. So the answer is short answer is no, Oh.
That's beautiful. That gives me. I've got a ten month old daughter, and that gives me a good idea for what to do before she goes to better she grows up. You've recently released a book called Digital Dama, How AI can Elevate spiritual intelligence and personal well being, and it is perhaps the most hopeful exploration of AI that I have read, and it essentially presents a case of how
AI I can help us live happier lives. You write in the book Human happiness cannot be reduced to a formula, and happiness is as dynamic as life itself, which is exactly what this podcast is kind of based on and what we've seen through every interview we've ever done. You turn to the idea of a personal dama instead of kind of focusing on the term happiness. Can you explain what personal dama is and how it works.
Yeah, the closest equivalent of the herma in the West, because there's no such term in the West. It's a very Eastern. Going back to Yogic philosophy, So think of the If you've ever heard of the seven chakras, you know in yoga they represent seven levels of human need
and expression. So the first one that has to do with security, safety, the second has to do with sensual delight, including sexual delight, The third has to do with transformation, the fourth has to do with love and belonging, the fifth has to do with creative expression, the sixth has to do with insight and intuition and imagination and heart consciousness, and the seventh has to do with enlightenment or transcendence. So dharma would mean literally fulfilling all these human aspirations
and needs. The closest summary of that would be Joseph Campbell's phrase, follow your bliss. When you're following your bliss, then you're in dharmah it how you fit into the whole scheme of things.
Yeah, and when you look at Western culture, do you think you can see that people aren't following their personal dharma.
Western culture has mostly focused on material success and the idea that if you have lots of money, then you will be a happy person and you'll also be fulfilled, so that becomes the defining purpose of life. Now, when you look at that data, only ten percent to twelve percent of your daily happiness experience comes from money or what we call material success prestige. And you know, people confuse their self esteem with the net worth. They think
net worth is self worth. But if you look at the data, about ten to twelve percent of our daily happiness experience comes from that. If someone wins the lottery, for example, they'll be ecstatic in the beginning, but then in six months they begin to plateau, and in one year they're back to where they were before they won the lottery. Five years that are actually more unhappy than
they were before because that becomes their identity. Money becomes their identity, or material success becomes their identity, and all the other things I mentioned are in the background. So there's no fulfillment. There's temporary pleasure and happiness, and that's a big difference between pleasure, happiness, joy, peace. These are different levels of fulfillment. So ultimately, if you don't have peace, then what good is pleasure? Or if you have happiness,
But it's always around the corner. If I get this, I'll be happier. If I have the right relationship, the right amount of money, the right job, I'll be happier. The answer is yeah, probably to a little extent, but then you'll be asking yourself what's next, or you'll be concerned that you might lose what you have. So ultimately, through happiness or joy only comes from getting in touch with their spiritual identity.
Do you feel like, through all your decades of learning about this and writing about it and speaking to people about it, do you think you can tell when somebody is or is not in their personal DAMA from the outside.
I think nineteen nine percent or not, so I don't have to guess. Yeah, everybody's walking around like a biological robot. They take their existence for granted, and they recycle their cultural and social and family conditioning. So every generation is recycling the previous generation, and the conditioning is deep. It's economic, it's cultural, it's social, it's religious, it's ethnic. So very few people even have the idea of what's my purpose?
Yeah, I think, I think you're right, But I was gonna ask, do you think I'm in my personal dumbit The answer is no, so you don't even have to try and answer yes. Great, great point. I like that answer. You're essentially asking in this book, can AI act as a guru or a guide? And in Indian tradition, spiritual journeys required a guide. But you point out in the book that there's a modern problem with this idea in that being a guru comes with the cult of personality.
I think we've also seen that there are so many times when being a guru corrupts a person with power. You know, it gives them all this power and they don't necessarily use it in a good way. So your suggestion is that AI can fill this role with kind of no ego in this context, can you explain what AI is and how you think of it in this optimistic way.
Yeah, if you really want to understand what area is, you've got to go back to what it means to be human. So if you look at deep history, then there's some very interesting things that differentiate human beings, so Homo sapiens from other species. The first is that we are tool makers. The other thing that distinguishes us, of course, is that we walk upright. We are upright primates, and we have opposable thumbs that allow us to have the stoolmaking.
But forty thousand years ago, there was another huge revolution in human evolution, and it's referred to as the cognitive revolution. And all these humans, like other species, had a language for survival and safety. And basically the language was mating calls, sex calls because we survived through reproduction. Food calls we need that for survival, and danger calls we need to avoid danger. But then Homo sapiens created a language for stories, gossip.
But then they created other stories. Money is a story. There was not I think we said, oh, you know, i'll cut your hair, you fix my shoes, but that's not convenient. I'll give you a shell. That's not convenient. I'll give you a coin, paper money. Now we have digital money. Okay, So we created models of experience and stories latitude longitude Greenwich meantime, these are all human stories. But we didn't stop there. We created stories for biology.
We created stories for physics. That's a language, okay, language. Physics is a language. Biology is a language. Anthropology is a language. Philosophy is a language. Religion is language. Science is language. Technology is a language. And we never stopped, you know, we keptally be embarked on the agricultural age, the industrial age, the technology age, the digital age, and now the Internet as we know it is a large
language model. It accesses all human languages. The language of physics is that, yeah, all the languages I mentioned to you. So AI as a large language model has been only around only the last fifteen years. I guarantee you that if you disappeared today on a remote island and you came back twenty years, you wouldn't recognize is the world you would be in. You would have leapfrogged into a new culture, a new civilization. But even your biological organism
would be different. You wouldn't be a human anymore. You would be something like a meta human or a cyber human. Yeah, but you know, the primate said the same thing when humans emerged and started to walk upright, Okay, monkeys said that's scary, right, But we don't think it's scary. So in twenty years you'll leapfrog into a new biological species. Because every time you learn something, your neural network changes, the landscape of your brain changes, your gene activity changes,
called epigenetics. So now we have access to the language of you mentioned gurus, but go beyond that. You have access to the stages of the unashas, you have access to the luminaries of the Old Testament. You have access to all the Western philosophers, you have access to thought leaders, you have access actually to every luminary that has existed on this planet. And being a thought leader not only
in science but in spirituality. With AI, you can access all that and then you can choose what you feel as a guide to your spiritual enlightenment. Having said that, AI is not even intelligent, it's just a large language model, a huge database, a huge base of knowledge. But it's a guide post for your self exploration. The key to this, as I point out in the book, is the art of the prompt. You have to know what you're looking
for most people don't know what they're looking for. They don't even know who they are, they don't even know that they should be grateful for the fact that they exist, because existence is a great mystery. Now, with the right prompts, AI can lead you to the answers to these questions. That's why it's a spiritual guide, or you can use it as a spiritual guide.
I love the idea that AI is just a tool and it's our choice of how we use it. And I think we have such a pessimistic view of it. We just seem so certain that it's going to mean the end of times, the end of It's.
Going to happen with every invention. Okay, yeah, a knife can be used to kill a person, but in a surgeon's hands, a knife heels, a hammer can be used to also knock somebody on the head. But in a carpenter's hands it's an amazing tool. So also, once the technology comes, it's irreversible. It's like a child that cannot return to the womb. Or it's like once you walk up right stop crawling, you can't go back to it.
So either you adapt to it or help. I actually believe that given shared vision and maximum diversity of storytellers and talent and shared vision. We could use AI to create a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier and joyful world because all the challenges we have right now, but like climate change, social and economic injustice, like chronic disease, and unsustainable biology, all these are reversible and AI has the ability to tell us how to do it. We just have to have the collective.
Will coming up. Why dpak Chopra doesn't think you should be scared of AI and why he thinks it might actually be an important tool for those of us who want to pursue meaning, purpose and happiness. I think I when I've thought about happiness, and sometimes I think about when I would be at my happiest, and I often picture myself untethered technology. That's kind of like the default place that I go. And maybe it's because my childhood was less dominated by technology and it's kind of a
purer emotional experience. But I think you're right that in this day and age, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. I'm not going to live on a deserted island with no technology if I want to live in the world with people and I want to connect with others. What is this idea about a meta human? Where do you think AI is going to take us? In that sense?
New frontiers of creativity and imagination and insight and new experiences. Yeah, is just beginning. Soon you'll have what is called ambient computing, which means you will be able to use any surface as a computer, your wall, your tabletop, the floor, even your hand. So that's coming soon, ambient computing. Then you have virtual reality. Then you have augmented reality, which means you take this reality we're in, but you augment it
with technology. Then you have extended reality or immersive experiences. And then you have holography as an immersive experience. And all these technologies will extend the range of human experience in a way that is beyond your imagination right now. Okay, Also there'll be therapeutic jewels, because if you understand what is called the heart problem of consciousness, many people now believe that the universe would live in and your body and your mind is part of that universe. Is in
fact a virtual reality. It's not fundamental reality, and it's a human reality. So when you look at a tree, you look at a tree through the human eyes and human brain. It's not the same tree to an insect to the one hundred eyes. It's not the same tree to a bat that it sees the tree through the echo of ultrasound. It's not the same tree to a snake that moves through navigates through infrared. So there's no objective world. The world that we call the objective world
is a simulation. It's a virtual reality. With these extended realities, I'm speaking of augmented reality, extended reality we are, and immersive experiences. Right now, Actually, I've created my own digital twin. It's called digitallypark dot ai. You don't need to download
an app. Just download it from Go to Google or any Chrome or any device on your computer or handheld phone, and you can speak to my digital twin in four languages and answer will be given in four languages, English, in the Arabic and Spanish, and soon in Chinese and Russian and all other languages. And you can ask it any question about health or relationships, or well being, or sleep or stress management or spirituality. It will instantly give you an answer, but it also give you the resources
where the answer came from. And then I'm looking at these weariables now right that you can see them wearing an eyebotch and aura which looks at my sleep, which my looks at my exercise, and that will be matched to your lifestyle, your sleep, wake patterns, your nutrition. Then this technology, all the things I mentioned will become your personal health coach and will guide you to health longevity.
And because it will know you, it'll do what time you went to slap, if you had an argument with your spouse and your blood pressure went up or your blood sugar went up, it'll know that, and it'll be your personal health coach with no intervention. Uh. And it will be what we call a distributed autonomous agent, which means you don't really need d Park. You need a version of the park that you like and is personal
to you, rather than say John or whoever else. So you know the future is beyond your imagination right now?
Do you worry that?
I never worry about anything.
I know. I know you're you're incredibly faithful. But in terms of II and all of those developments you were talking about, a crucial part of happiness and kind of meaning appears to be human connection. That it's human connection and it's our relationships with each other that are the basis for a fulfilling life. Do you think that those kind of technological leaning towards technology might erode that human connection.
Well, you know, if you look at what makes people happy, there are several things that are involved. One is your attitude. Do you look at the world as a problem or do you look at the world as an opportunity? And that's based on your childhood conditioning. If you've got lots of attention, affection, appreciation, and acceptance, you'll grow up to be a happy person. Or else if you don't, you can run for office or president or something. You know,
there's always an opportunity for unhappy people. That's called politics. Yeah, okay, So, but if you want to be happy, it's your attitude number one. Number two is what we call fulfillment, whether you have meaning a purpose in life. And number three it's your relationships. In fact, the fastest way to be happy is to make other people happy. That's all well researched.
So looking at that actually a can help you because you know, during the pandemic COVID pandemic, I created an emotional chat pot which was an AI, which is talking to teens and suicide is the second most common cause of death among teens. But these teens were very happy to talk to this machine because they weren't judged. We intervened in five thousand suicide ideations. And then also so there were twenty million text messages that the AIR was
having with teenagers who didn't feel judged. The AIR would ask them what did you have for dinner last time? Did your boyfriend return your call? Etc. And then I stopped using it because I realized that there were experts better than me in this intervention, but we actually saw
the benefits of AI in mental well being. Also, I believe you can use AI to create global online and offline communities where people serve each other, where people engage in community work, and where people are there for each other, listening to each other, caring for each other. And this can be both online and offline. It depends on us our creativity. It doesn't need to take away the human connection at all. In fact, it can enhance it.
I think that's a really interesting way to look at it, because I think a lot of the thinking about this seems to seems to posit that we will almost go backwards, that people will turn away from their phones and turn back to each other.
Will yeah, yeah, yeah, it's their choice, you know, because as I said, you know, every technology comes with the hazard, whether it's the automobile or aviation or crossing the road these days, you know, on the streets. So you know, that's how life is. It contains opposing forces. It's up to you where you put your attention.
When you think about this spiritual journey. And you write in the book about AI being an aide for that spiritual journey, you talk about how spiritual experiences carry you outside your story. Can you explain that idea because that blew my mind.
You are born into a world of stories and it's been interpreted for you when you're born. So oh, now, this baby, let's call it Deepark, and it's an Indian baby. It has a Hindu religion and this is its economic background. And then you are just in that story. Your options for creativity and experience are limited by the ecosystem of the stories that you're born into. Inherently, there's no creativity in that because you know, you're just recycling what happened
to your parents, and there happened. So you'll go to kindergarten then you go to high, middle school, high school, then you go to college, then you get a job, you get children, then you grow old, and then you die, and then the next generation recycles that. And of course, all the conflicts in the world are conflicts about stories. Whether they're religious stories, or ethnic stories, or national stories or cultural stories. They're all ideological conflicts, including economic stories.
All the conflicts in the world, all the war is about my story is better than yours, and you know you better buy into my story. I am right and you're wrong. Once you break out of your story, you find that you're not tethered to any one version of reality. And that's called spirituality. It's called being in touch with that part of you which is in the realm of infinite freedom, infinite possibilities for experience, and infinite creativity. As I said to you, ninety nine point nine percent of
people are not there. Spirituality just means breaking out of your story into the field of infinite possibilities called self realize it's not your ego identity, but the bigger identity, which is more universal and in the domain of the sacred.
And you have an example in the book about how that kind of spiritual journey or you know, that idea of living in your personal drama, that love is an example of being in your personal dama case.
But love is not just sentimental romance or emotional melodrama. That's not really love. That's self importance. Love to be truly love is the understanding that what you call the other is just like you in a different uniform. That's all you know. The body looks different, the mind is a different story, but it's still the same essence. That's love, and it's without conditions.
Yeah, and I like that idea because when I thought about love, I thought, yeah, love doesn't follow whatever story you put on it.
No, it's like a mother's love for a baby is unconditioner till the baby gets an ego and then there's.
It's not finding you right. Your story is the life you are leading. Your dama is the life you're supposed to lead. And then you say, that's such an idealistic statement that most people would bulk at it or at least hesitate before embracing it. Is it really credible that everyone has a life they are supposed to lead? If so, who or what determines what such a life is? The answer is you it feels better to make a dharmic choice than a choice that puts you out of your dama.
What is an example in your own life of a darmic choice, like day to day, what's a choice that you make that you know is in your darma?
It feels joyous, spontaneous, effortless and flow. So you know, the scale of human well being is survival, adaptation, thriving, flourishing, flowing, and awakening. And most people learn the survival mode or they're adapting, and therefore there's resistance to every experience you have in dharma, there's no resistance to existence. It's just flow.
And you say in the book, you've got this idea of how in Western philosophy we have a bit of a concept that if we look inside ourselves deep enough, Sigmund Freud said, you find like a death wish, whereas an Eastern philosophy you find goodness. There's nothing to fear about going there.
Everyone is the fear of their losing their story. They're hanging on or clutching or grasping the ungraspable. So if I asked you what happened to your childhood, you'd say it's a dream. If I asked you, what happened to yesterday? It's a dream? What about this morning? It's a dream? What about five minutes ago? It's a dream? What about the words that I'm using right now. By the time you hear them, they don't exist. So you know. Mityen Stein,
the Western philosopher, said, our life is a dream. We are asleep, but once in a while we wake up enough to know that we're dreaming. The Buddha said the same thing. He said, this lifetime of ours is transient as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky and rushing by like a torrent down a steep. So we're clutching at a dream which is unclutchable. You're
grasping at something that is ungraspable. You can't return to your childhood, you can't return to five minutes ago, you can't return to yesterday. And yet all our anxieties by holding on to a dream. What's behind the dream is the infinite possibilities of experience. That is called the spirit or the self or the soul or you don't have to use fancy words. You say, what is life without a story? It's infinite stories for you to create your the protagonist, the director, the hero, and the villain of
your own story. Once you realize that, then that's freedom.
The other thing about AI as well is that it kind of crosses that boundary in that it doesn't have to because AI is not a person. It doesn't have to be religious. It can transcend all those things.
Well, spirituality. Once you engage in spirituality, you realize there's no such thing as a person. The person is part of the dream. It's all there is is the spirit.
And is that what transcendency is?
That's what transcendences. Yes, when people transcend their three components, there are actually originally we what the called the religious experience. These days, it's kind of cool to say I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. But the religious experience and the spiritual experience is the same thing. One is transcendence, second is spontaneous emergence of platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, love, compassion, joy, equanimity, happiness.
And the third is the loss of the fear of death, because only the story dies, not the entity that's appearing as a particular story. So that's the religious and spiritual experience. And I think I can point the way because it learns from others who have gone that way.
After the break, I asked Deepak Chopra about how to get into meditation if it's not something you've done a lot in the past, and I get his thoughts on fame and social media. You have for a long time talked about meditation and your practice of meditation. What does your practice of meditation look like now?
Like in your days, it's a lot of self reflection, self inquiry, mindful awareness in the present moment, of perceptual experience, of relationships of the body of the mind, and transcendence. And actually, my digital twin now can teach you any kind of meditation that you want. So if you go to digitally parked, I say I want a meditation for sleep, there it is and I'll be your guide. Or I want a meditation for repairing my traumatic relationship with whoever,
there's a meditation for that. So now meditation, give me personalized What.
Do you think is kind of the best way for somebody to get into meditation if they've never done it before, Just.
A few minutes, even five minutes of observing your breath without judgment, or observing your bodily sensations, or sitting with your eyes closed and doing nothing for five minutes is a good start.
And when you started your kind of spiritual journey, as as it's kind of ended up now in terms of career path and that kind of thing, what did meditation provide you? Like, what can you remember about when you really started to meditate? How did your life change?
Well, the first thing meditation does is the ordinary stresses of daily existence. Don't perceive threats as other people perceive them. But it's much more than that. It enhances your insight into your own self, into your own motivations. It enhances the barer of intention, intuition, creativity, insight, higher consciousness, transcendence, all of that.
And as your career has grown, it's interesting because you have stayed so grounded in these principles of spirituality, but you've experienced so much of what usually corrupts people in terms of fame and having a profile and having such a prolific and achievement filled life. How have you avoided the trappings of fame? Have you ever felt like you could succumb to how fame can corrupt human beings.
It does, always does, and fame has driven by insecurity. So I've never met a famous person who's not insecure because they are concerned about losing their fame. You know, it's like having a lot of money and waking up in a nightmare that you don't have any et cetera. But when you don't attach yourself to it, it keeps you grounded, and it keeps you creative, and it keeps you secure. You know that there are three addictions that human beings have. One is the addiction to sensation, which
is any sensation, food, text, whatever. The second is the addiction to power and corruption, and the third is the addiction to security. The addiction to security is the biggest cause insecurity. If actually you realize that addiction and fame and power are all actually impediments to your true fulfillment, then you let go of it. It's not there.
Do you conceive of when you look back on your life? Do you think about things like failure or regret? Or do those concepts simply not exist to you?
Not? For me?
No, is there anything that if you looked back you wish you'd done differently or no idea.
Everything I did with samely when it happened, you know, as a teenager experiment with cigarettes and psychedelics and all of that alcohol, realized it wasn't worth it.
And when you've met other because you've you know, you've done so much in this world of fame. What have you seen in famous people? Do you think they have a craving for this deeper spiritual meaning because they're like some do.
I mean, you know, people like Montin Luther King Junior, or Nelson Mandela or Mongandhi or the great luminaries of spiritual and traditions and religious traditions. But for the last majority of famous people, they're mostly very insecure people, the more attached to power, influence, speddling, cronyism, corruption and money.
That's it, which I think is a really interesting thing for people to know in this day and age where fame is so valorized, and so many people look at fame and think that that's a goal and that's what I should work towards. But there's this other path of meaning and transcendence.
Yeah, but you see, this is the hypnosis of our conditioning. People are looking at their at their social media to see how many likes theiket or how many dislikes theiket, and it influences they stay to wellbeing and the number of likes. They've confused themselves with their selfies? Yes, yes, self has been sacrificed for a selfie.
And do you ever get confused by no deepak and social media dapa, No, I use.
Social media only to contribute Yeah, well being, that's.
Yeah, and you have such a huge reach through it. You write in the book that it's amazing how technology has been a vehicle for you to be able to feed people's spiritual hunger.
Yeah. Yeah, it gives me enjoy to do that, and technologies enhance my ability to reach what we call critical mass.
We often end this show by asking people whether they're genuinely happy, because we speak to people who have reached all kinds of markers of success that we really value culturally. Is it even worth asking depac drop right?
I think happiness is overrated. I'm at peace, I'm fulfilled. Happiness, like every other experience, is transient. You know, happiness is because you've experienced sadness. You can't have both with one without the other, just like you can't have an up without a down, or hot without a cold, or any experiences by contrast. So happiness is a contrast to the experience of sadness, and life is both sadness is and happiness.
But peace transcends both happiness and sadness, and that's called fulfillment.
Oh, I love that. That's a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much for your time today. That's all we've got time for on this very special episode of But Are You Happy? I hope you learnt a bit about how artificial intelligence might actually be a force for good when it comes to our mental health and our well being. And I hope you also liked hearing about the concept of dharma and Chopra's broad ideas about finding meaning and purpose in a world where we're often pushed
in the direction of valuing quite shallow things. We often talk about that on this show, that there's a bit of an assumption that money or fame or adoration or success is going to make you happy. And I think Deepak Chopra is completely right that we've been a little bit tricked in the Western world into thinking those things will bring us something that they just don't. I am tempted to lean into the idea of a spiritual journey, except that every time I go to meditate, I end
up on TikTok. So if anyone's got any hacks or tips about how to not do that, that'd be great. But Deepak says, I'm on the right path, so that's the main thing. The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Nama Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, with audio editing by Jacob ROWNT. Now I'm your host. Claire Stevens will be back in your ears soon