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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four fifty four. Your dream doesn't have an expiration date, Take a deep breath and try again.
Kat You Whitten broadcasting from a dark, windowless.
Room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
My next guest is a graduate of full Sell University's Film and Entertainment Business programs. He's the founder of Crash Films, Inc. He's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy has done so many crazy awesome things, and we're going to get into all that. We're going to talk a lot about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a little bit about networking too, because he didn't just go
out to La had a plan without knowing anybody. He actually had a plan in place, and he's doing such some really awesome things. And why don't we just go right into it with guests Michael ky Snyder, Mike, you were the You were the guest on the first ever episode. The episode is now considered a part of the lost episodes, the first three are considered the lost episodes.
You were number one.
You were my first guest, and uh, it's so good three years later to have you actually back one. So Mike again, I want to say thank you very much for joining us. And it's kind of funny how we've come full circle now, all the way back from three years ago.
Now. I'm so happy to be back on the show, you know, it is it is. It's kind of funny that we that we have come full circle. You're totally right, and just thinking about some of the progressions that we've both made in our careers and how things have changed, it's just really interesting. Yeah.
And it's funny too because when I when we lasted the interview again, it was it was remotely like we're doing right now, but I was in a actual studio doing it and I had nothing but problems there. And now I'm doing it from my office and I and you know, it's just ten thousand times better because I remember when we had the episode and I listened to it and I was like, what the hell happen here? And it was that freaking recorder was not would never
work right. So I for the first two episodes, did I use that recorder and this really awesome radio station was sound proof? And then all of a sudden, now it's like you know, I, I mean it just even technology, how it's improved in three freaking years is unbelievable.
Crazy, Yeah, it is unbelievable.
So, you know, Mike, since that episode's a little lost, actually it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost. You know, I want to dig a little into your background for those of you, for those listeners who aren't really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done. So you know, you were actually a graduate of full Sale University. You graduated in what twenty ten?
Oh, man, I graduated Full Tails Film program in two thousand, thousand eleven, and then I graduated their master's program a couple of years after that. So I moved out to LA in about two thousand and fourteen, twenty fifteen.
Oh okay. So then, so see I get I just found out I even know you graduated from the master's program. So see I'm finding out to Yeah, so so you moved out to LA. Now we actually met through through trauma through Lloyd Kaufman, and you know, while and that was while you were actually at full sale. So when you were at full sale, do you think you know that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't have had anywhere else, So sort of like to work on a lot of these different movies.
I don't know. I don't really think that, you know, film school in general matters as much as a lot
of people want to say it does. I think, you know, given what I know now, if I could go back, I probably would have tried to work a little bit harder in high school and tried to get into like USC or UCLA, just because I feel like, you know, it's it's really all about your network, and if you can get in out here a little earlier, it just makes it so much easier to meet executives or meat agents or meat managers or producers because a lot of
them are going to be in the same class as you. Rather, if you're you know, in Florida and you go into a school that anybody you know, it's pretty much paying to go to because it's private, it's it's just not the same pool of resources. That's not to say that they didn't help me get jobs out here and introduced into a lot of people. But I would say that a lot of what I would consider to be my own success is just based on me reaching out to people myself. Yea.
You know there's an old saying your net worth is your so your network is your net.
Worth, and that's one hundred per century.
It really is, my honest to God, Even if you do something as obvious as like crowdfunding obviously, and you go out and you're like, well, hey, I need people to to to invest in this project, or if you're doing something like even this podcast or even doing something like releasing a film, if you don't have a network built up, you really don't have any way to really distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to build it as you're doing it, which is Uh, it was just
like shooting yourself in the foot.
That's absolutely right.
So so when when when you say you should you wish you had applied yourself in high school, uh, to go out to like USC and stuff like that. I mean, no, Mike, I trust me, I feel you. I did the same thing in high school, man, I honestly, and when senior year came around, I didn't give a shit about anything, That's right.
I I literally man. Like.
My teachers were like, Dave, if you know, you don't apply yourself anymore, and I'm like, I don't care. I just want to get the help out of here.
Exactly. That's why I was. I was, I was, I would like that. Before my I was like, that might be eighth grade though, you know, yeah, I went to two different high schools and and uh, you know the funny part is when I was a junior in high school, I cook in English. I was in an English honors class because I finally had a teacher who kind of
convinced me to apply myself with writing. And she actually did an informational interview assignment where you had to reach out to a professional in your fields or where you wanted to go into the career you want to go in. So I was like, well, shit, man, I want to be a you know, writer director. I mean, Spilberg's not going to return my calls. You know, I can't really reach out with Scorsese, So who can I reach out to?
And that's actually how I met Boyd with trauma and started working like the conventions in Florida with him, which is just really funny. And I think that was a moment where my mind kind of opened up a little bit where it was like, Okay, maybe she just focus on this and focus on filmmaking and writing and your network. So when I went to high school, I mean obviously in Florida, when you go to high school, there's not like a there's not even like a film history class,
well like a film theory, like collective. It's all just the brass tacks high school stuff. And I would there was no way for me to apply myself in the career that I really wanted to except for in this one creative writing class, you know. And I think there's something to say about the art programs in schools with that, because I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in right now if I hadn't, you know, higging that course and
made that decision. I wish there was more of those types of opportunities for people young students.
Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there than just sort of like you know, you know, options A, B and C. That's right, so, and you know that's something too that you know. Even when I was in high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all these freaking movies. We would go to like all the local video stores. You know, most people who listen to this podcast know what those were, like the Blockbusters, Hollywood videos, Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then but
but you know, we would always rent these movies. We'd go out and every Friday, Saturday night or whatever, we'd go out. We'd just be watching all sorts of different movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it didn't even dawn on me at that point, dude, that I could make a you know, I could do this for a living. I just figured that everyone who wrote and made movies was like, you know, granted these special privileges by like the President of United States or some crap, you.
Know, right right exactly. It's like it's it's the unattainable goal. You know, it's out there, but you have no what, you have no idea how to you know, map your road success in that field. There's there weren't a lot
of resources, you know, and it's crazy. It was literally like you go when you watch movies and you think, you know, I remember when I was ten years old, I was watching Close Encounters and I'm like, this is great, you know, And it was the first time my parents ever, were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie, and it was like a light bulb off of my brand, Like somebody writes movies. You know, it's just the craziest thing.
But now I think there's a lot there's a few more resources just years later, and not that many years, but there really weren't when I was in high school.
Yeah, it was sort of like, you know, you have to go to college, you have to do this stuff. And when I went to it, you know, and when I went to college, I didn't know. I didn't know anything exactly what I wanted to major in.
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And you know, I bounced around from major to major, but I was always, you know, in my spare time, I was practiced in writing. And I actually the first book I ever got on screenwriting was a book called The Screenwriter's Bible by David Trodier. Yes, and I bought that and that just sort of like opened the floodgates. And now I was like, you know, getting different movies and trying to figure out, you know, how to actually how they wrote that stuff and how I do it.
I'll still do it. But but then you start to realize, oh my god, there are people out there who actually make movies. And I actually and at that I guess maybe it was like two thousand and six or seven, I actually really got into it and I was like, you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I found them on on my Space. Remember my Space, Mike.
Man, Yeah, unfortunately I do. I think minds like like I think, I went went to great length to delete mine.
I mine was actually deleted for me.
Uh.
And I got to notice one day they were like, we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours is wonderful. And I said, honestly, burn that guy that burned that thing to the ground.
Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.
It's so true. It's a it's I. I have a friend of mine who who still has or he had one, and I was like, my god, man, I go to that. That that's like a something from your childhood. That's like an embarrassing moment. You're just like, please never bring that
up again. But uh, but you know, I actually I actually met some from filmmakers through my Space, and uh, and and some of these guys were actually in like Jersey and New York, and uh, you know, I never really put two and two together that there there's there's a lot more there wasn't.
There was a lot more in the.
In the whole bigger area. I don't want to say PA because it really wasn't that many and PA at that time. But but like New York and Jersey, there was a few people. Most didn't respond back because most were looking for like producers that could fund and give them money. Some actually money right exactly, And most actually did though, you know, come back and say Okay, here's what you can do. And then I just you know,
went from there. But but you know, what I'm trying to say with all this is it's Simil's what you did with Lloyd and you reached out to him and said, you know, I can you know, I should see how I could actually work with this guy, and you you made an opportunity for yourself.
Yeah, I mean I took a class assignment and I reached out on my shop in the email, I'm like, hey, I want to do an interview with you over the phone, you know, and just talk about your career and and how you've made something out of nothing and continue to do so. And he responded back with a cell phone
number and that was that was it. And then it was just really up to me to keep him pinned down and stay on top of him as much as possible, you know, whenever he was in town or I went to New York and that saw, you know, on different things. It was it was just to keep to keep the relationship alive.
Yeah, and you know, now with technology we're able to actually, you know, keep in contact with people a lot better and so and and also it's a double ed short because then you're you're getting too much contact with with every rip get you once right, Uh. But you know, but you made an opportunity. You reached out, even it was for a class or and you made sure to make a contact and I think that's so important and and I think and also you did the professional way.
I mean, I just had Whitty Davis in the podcast for the second time and we talked about networking the
right way. And you know, the first time that you you contact somebody, you shouldn't be asking for something right now totally and uh and you know you you actually were offering something for Lloyd and he took you up on that and then again you know, and here we are all these years later because and because when you when you were on that Troma film, we met through that, because that's when I I met Lloyd Uh, and then we were start talking and then I think, uh, yeah, yeah,
that's how we meant. And then then uh, there's you know, I've met a few other people through Lloyd d And you know, Lloyd's always doing something on independent films.
He's a connector, man. I mean, he's the great connector, you know. I mean he just if he's able to put you on the phone or in the room with somebody that you want to be on thunner in the room with, he'll he'll do whatever he can to be the one to do it, who does it, you know, and and then he'll take all credit for it, which he rightfully deserves. Yeah.
And I remember reading his his independent film book and it was just absolutely hilarious and I was like, see, he's he's he's making independent film. You fun. It's not taken too seriously. And you know his and when he was on the podcast, he uh, he said he founded Trauma in Prison with Michael Hurts uh and he was Michael Hurts's bitch and they founded Troma in.
Prison and I'm like wow.
And afterwards, the after the interview, I said to it, Lloyd, do you have I think that someone's gonna listen to this for the first time, not hearing of humor trauma, and think, wow, that guy really started moving prisiness in prison.
He probably like, I hope no, you know, not far from the truth.
You know, yeah, yeah, seriously, Uh, you know, I I've you know, and Lloyd is great. He's a very good connector. He's always connected and you know, different people and uh, you know again because he connected us and and I've been on different film sets multiple times. And you so, you know, after you got off this, you know, just to continue your story, after you got off you know, the working on trauma, and you know, you sort of
you went back to Full Sale. You know, at what point did you want to did you realize that you wanted to go back for your for a master's at Full Sale at.
The beginning, just because it was kind of part of the deal with my parents and just the way that they structured their programs. It was like if you it was like they had a deal, like it was like a bogo, Like if you buy one degree, you know, we can give you this second degree at a certain cost that was thousands of dollars less than it would have been had you decided to do it later. Because every so many years they restructure their programs and they
changed the cost. So it just happened to be that. When we sat down with a representative of Full Sale, they were just they were like, now, if you want to take the master's program in business, you know we can. We can.
We can go.
Ahead and lump it in with the film program and it'll end up costing you less money later on. And you know, it was like it was like no time. You know, it was so quick because it's such an accelerated program that my parents were like, you might as well. And I mean at that point it was kind of whatever they wanted to do. I was really doing it more for them. I think I kind of knew that I needed to move somewhere and just start working, but you know, to keep everything cool at home and to
put a diplomb on the wall. I was like, yeah, we'll go ahead and do that.
And you know, again, it's good that you had a plan, because honestly, like you can become like me and you know obviously have no plan and just kind of figure your way out. But but no, it's good to the unip man. There's not really a plan out there, you know. It's like you just have to figure it out. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this.
I think you just have to you have to do it. You have to just set goals and hit those goals. And those goals can be anything, as long as you know that at the end of that list there's some sort of success and whatever that successes, and that being monetary success. It could just be moving to Los Angeles, from moving to New York or getting a show, a gig on a show or anything. You know, there's not really there's not really a way to teach this.
And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA and that's actually what I want to ask next, is you know, yeah, so you got the Masters and then you moved out to LA. I think you said out twenty fourteen is when you moved down.
It would Yeah. I mean, I'm horrible at date, so I'm probably butchering it. Well, let's just say that. And basically what happened to is after I was done with the film program, and I went to the masters. All of my film school friends that are moved out to Los Angeles. So by the time I was done, you know, I had couches to sleep on, which is really key when you're moving from you know, Podunk, Florida to one
of the most expensive cities in the nation. Is it nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And so I host up with the career Development program at full sale and they got me the internship out here and I called by my friends and he was like, man, you can come out here. You can sleep on my couch for as long as you want or need to. You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything
with your internship. Just just get out here, like that's all we want. We just want you out here. So I flew out and moved in with him. And sorry, by internship, I mean it was interesting. I was running a ten thousand square foot warehouse in downtown Los Angeles for more Tyranny and Anthony Revevar and Sean Wing and a few other actors and Nathan Heeney, who's a great direct photography now, and they basically they pulled their resources.
They rented this massive warehouse right and it's like really old warehouse in downtown, and they needed some young kids to run it. So there was one other guy who was managing it, and I interned there and after a couple of months they hired me on as his assistant, and then after a couple of months, I got his job.
So I ended up doing that for a couple of years and opened a second location in Burbank with Stacey Chaer, who everyone knows is Tarantino was produced and partner or was and her husband Carrie Brown, who's a really good friend, and we did a lot of really cool stuff, man, and it was a lot of fun and I got to meet a lot of really great people my first couple of years out here, which is always nice.
Yeah, yeah, And you mentioned having couches to sleep on. That was actually left one of my questions because having that networks as everyone already moved out there, you know, and having those couches to sleep on and places to crash and you know, key, yeah, exactly, it is key.
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And again are your network? Is your net worth? And uh again you you're able to actually, you know, uh go out there and not just be like all right, so what next. I mean I've had friends Mike who's gone out to LA and sort of been like with with no plan and been like, Okay, what next.
It's like, well, you're gonna you're gonna suffer if you do that.
Yeah, you're gonna really really reality is gonna hit you very fast totally. So you now you mentioned you got the you know, the warehouse job. Now at this point, were you always writing scripts and did you maybe have a few scripts to show to two different like maybe producers' agencies.
Yeah, I mean I I started writing screenplays when I was probably eleven years old, pen and paper. Then I figured out how to adjust the macros and word. Then I figured out, you know, you could get heltics and all these freere Then I found out that there were all these forums and independent script hosting sites online. So
I was always putting material out there. I mean, I was just pushing short films and short stories and really shitty features out there and whatever I could just to get reads and get comments, because that's you know, structure is key from that point of view. So by the time I'd moved to Los Angeles, I had some features kind of under my belt, and I had one in particular that I was I think the most proud of been working on the hardest, and basically I started reaching
out to people. And while I was out here for those first couple of years, I was also producing short films because I had this awesome ten thousand square foot warehouse that would be rented out for events and films and stuff, you know, half of the year, and then it would just be sitting there if the other half of the year. So I would get my buddy who had read cameras and lenses and all these different things, and we would produce short films and we'd write them
and produce them. And I had two that premiere at the can Film Festival, you know, two different years. So I used that and I used like kind of my background, and I sent an email to Carson who runs Script Shadow. Some people love them, some people hate him, whatever, and I attached a feature that I've written that I was pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on his site for one of the you know, independent hostings that he does, and I would say I got one
hundred emails from people that were basically, this sucks. You know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a donb millennial. I mean literally that. And I got one email from somebody who ended up being my manager.
But you know, am I want to ask you about the manager email on a second, but I want to before I do, I want to ask you, why why do you think you got so much hate mail? Do you think it was for a lot of fact we know I have I have my own theory about why
you got so much hate mail. And my theory is this, there's a lot of people who have unrealized dreams and whenever they kind of see someone coming down the pipeline, it's like a chance to sort of almost like if I could throw off all this frustration and anger and resentment onto somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm gonna take that shot. That's my theory about it. But why do you think you got so much of those angry emails? Yeah?
I think at the combination of that, and I think that you know, I may have come off as a little little arrogant because I was like look, you know, I've produced these two short films. You know, I'm like twenty five, twenty four, twenty five years old, and I just could really benefit from hosting the script yaha, YadA, YadA. And I think it's a combination of people misreading my
inventions and also just what you're saying. It's like armchairs, you know, screenwriter reviewers, screenplay reviewers, they're sitting there and they're rewriting movies in their heads on their sofa, but they're not actually out there hitting the pavement. And because of that inability to motivate themselves, they're haters.
Yeah, it's that. That's where I think it is. That they they're very angry, they're very you know, and a lot of the a lot of people in this business.
There's a lot of awesome people.
And you and I talk about this, you know, uh, because we talk a lot, and we talk about how sometimes this business stereotyped is everyone is bitter, angry, out to get you. But there's a ton of awesome people in this business, and there are many and it's just and but but it's unfortunate like situations like that where it's like you really see the sort of dark side where it's like, what the hell is this? There was actually a screenwriting group that used to be a part
of on Facebook. It was a Facebook group and I think it was it was set a private or whatever, and I remember people would post in there and they would post stuff that was completely wrong, and you would sit there and you try to correct, you know, and just not not like say like, hey, you're wrong, but just say hey, there's another way to do this. They would jump all over people, and finally I said, why the hell am I part of this freaking group anymore? And it's fun.
It can't all be negative, Yeah, you know, it has to be. It has to be. There has to be optimism because it's such a hard industry to break into that if all people are bringing is negativity, you're just going to stop someone from potentially a cheat air dream.
And it's almost too like when when uh, you know, when you're actually producing a film, you know, if you have people around you who are constantly just being like problems spotters and not problem solvers, you know, there's those are the type of people that you.
Got to like.
Jettisid from the project as soon as possible.
Oh totally, man, it's it's you can boil it down to, you know, don't bring me the problem, bring me the solution.
Really Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail right on the head mic and uh, you know. And so so as you sort of go back to tell that script shadow, you got one email that was from a manager who said, you know, I want to talk to you.
So yeah, it was like, I think you showed a lot of talent on the page, a little bit about me, gave me the background, and he was like, let's, you know, let's grab some coffee. And we went and we got coffee, and I thought he was great though. I was really knowledgeable and nice guy, and you know, I kind of just pitched myself as hard as I could, and at the end of the meeting he was kind of like,
all right, what do you want to do? And at this point I had an idea of what I wanted my next project to be, and had I chose something that I felt was, you know, probably not going to get made. But if I could partner with the right person, I could get in front of the people who would potentially make it, and that would open all the other doors for me. And it was a script I wrote called The Mouse who would be king, And it's the story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt Disney developed and
created Mickey Mouse. That it ends with creations of Mickey Mouse. And I wrote it in a very Roger Rabbit way, where you see what he's thinking and all these different things. And so I told him that, and I was like, it's never going to get made, but let's put it out there. Let's take meetings and let's get into development because you know, we have time. We can do this now. Kind of like what that mean? He was like, all right, let's do it, and we shook hands and we went from there.
So and then where did you go from there? Did you go to start actually going too like all these different like pitch meanings and stuff.
Yeah, I mean we beat out the story. You know, I had the story because I grew up in Florida, right, and we went to Disney World all the time. And at Disney World they have an exhibit called One Man's Dream where you can go in and it's like a
Disney museum. And then there's this movie at the end where it basically explains how Walt had created Oswald the Lucky Rabbit and it was stolen from him or you know, he didn't really understand the full the paradigms of his contract, and Universal owned it and he put all this working through it, and he's like, I should own this because I put all was working through it, And on the train ride back home to tell his team and his wife,
he started coming up with Mickey Mouse. So I knew that that's what I wanted to end the movie with. Like I had my end. Then I had the idea of Walt Disney going on a train and having like this just epiphany of Mickey Mouse, and the way that I wanted to dramatize it was to actually have Mickey Mouse walk on the train car with him. So we beat out the story and we you know, I read a bunch of books and kind of just filled my manager's head with all this knowledge that Didney that he
didn't otherwise know. And then we wrote it, and I wrote drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts while still working at the studio, and he was like, finally, you know, we nailed it down, and he started tending it. He sent it to agencies, sends, production companies, executives, producers, all sorts of people, and then the real game began and I started taking meetings.
So how long was it before you know, you talked to the manager, you able to beat it out, and before you got meetings? How long was that whole time seriod there?
Oh?
Man?
I mean I really knew the story, so I think it was kind of an easier development process. And it was just he and I, so there were weren't a lot of coats in the kitchen. I mean probably a six month seven months, and then I started taking meetings.
So when you actually started to take these meetings, what were some of the what was some of the feedback that you were getting.
I everyone loved the script. It was it was something where they were like, you know, we love the script, and we want to know what else you're working on and if we can find something to work on together. And I started developing, Like I developed a TV show with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a TV show with Image Movers, which is Roberts and Max's company, that didn't go anywhere. And then I took that, and I took that somewhere else, and everything kind of led
into other projects. Every every meeting I had, every conversation I had ended up giving me something else to work on, or they had something that I could fit into, or I showed some sort of interest in a project that
they brought up in the meeting. And then you know that that's really key is you go in there and of course I'm nervous, you know, and I'm moved out here to do this, and I'm going inter meeting with these big guys, right and they can be very intimidating, and the key is really to sell them on what your brand is and what your personal story is.
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And if you can do that, they're going to try and find something that they have that almost feels like a perfect fit for you, and then you have to capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere, but they led to other conversations and other development things and other specs that led to where I am today.
So you use that Mickey Mouse script and that sort of became like a calling card script to get your throat, yeah, to get your foot in the door. And they were saying, you know, did they say to you, hey, Mike, we love you know? The mouse would be king what else do you.
Have Yeah, I mean there was a little bit of that. It was like what else are you thinking about? Like what else are you writing? And then based on that, it was like if I was writing something that was sci fi, they would say, oh, we have this sci fi thing, or we or we're looking at this book,
what do you think about this book? Or for instance, when I went to Image Movers, it was more so about the fact that I used to box and I was an amateur boxer, and they had a producer who had optioned all of FX tools short Stories and FX toolvote million Dollar Baby, right, so they had optioned all of them except for a million Dollar Baby because obviously Warners had that, and they were like, would you be interested in trying to build a TV show based on
these short stories? And of course you say yes, and astarted developing that and when that fell through, I took all of the FX tool references out of what we had been working on and I wrote a spec pilot just without all those references that I filled it with my own personal experiences from boxing, and then that pilot became my TV calling card and then we sent that out to everybody.
And so when you set that out to everybody. Did you sort of have like a whole another round of meetings with like the same Oh yeah, askment companies or was it different masage.
It's kind of like a like an album, Like you write an album and then you go on a tour and you do all these concerts. Like that's kind of how I look at it. You write a script, you give it to some of your manager or your agent, they send it around to everybody, and then people finally get back to home and they want to meet with you. And then you go on a tour, you know, and then and you're basically going to all these different generals and all these different meetings and and hoping that something
turns into something else. You know. I never feel like the specific project that I'm going in with is going to sell, you know, I'm not there to sell that project. I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as a writer and to get on something either they already have or just open that line of communication where I can pitch them something later on.
And so when you know, you're building relationships, relationships, so now you're and so now they know when you come to the door, like oh, you know, there's Michael K. Sledder. He's he's guy was so, you know, brought the whole Disney project and he's done this and you know so and you you know, so they're sort of you're building a good reputation for yourself.
Yeah, you could. This whole countered relationships and it's really all it is. You know, somebody who I met, you know, five years ago and was a you know, creative exac somewhere is now you know, VP production out of a studio, right, and I can go to them and be like, you know, just just by just because I've kept in contact with
all these people throughout the years. And then they move up and they change, and their mandates change, and you never know when you're gonna have something that fits their mandate.
Yeah, because you know, you know, tastes change, you know, And now everybody, I swear like the number one question and the number one thing I hear from doing this podcast is you know, always have a TV pilot ready, because now they all they want something. Everybody wants something episodic.
Now. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I knew with some producers who they don't want a pilot, they want to pitch and the specific networks who they have to deal with or whoever they've worked with has you know, their mandate is, you know, we want to hear the pitch and then develop the pilot because there's money. And then some producers are like, we only want to take a spec pilot out. You know, we don't want to pitch, we don't want a bible. We just want to get
the spec and then take that out. So it's really you know, everyone's different, every network's different, every company is different.
Yeah, and you know now with everybody else getting into the game, like you know, like Amazon, I mean even even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon, there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into the custom content game. And I mean you just see all these these different players now popping up, and all the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know, and and and in Hulu and all your big your
big studios. So it's just you know, now it's like you have a lot of options as a writer.
That's great, yeah you do. It's just you know, getting into the conversation.
So as you talked about getting into the conversation, you know, you had just recently pitched a treatment for a sequel for a very well known movie. And I know you can't talk too much about it, but uh uh, you know, can you just tell, you know, all the listeners about, you know, what, what the treatment was that you pitched.
Yeah, yeah, totally so Bigically what happened is, I'll go back and kind of preface it with another story. I was sent an article from you know, by my girlfriend about this SeaWorld orchid trainer named John Hargrove who worked at sea World for fourteen years and became like this elite killer whale trainer and quit and he wrote a memoir. So, I mean, of course, again growing up in Orlando, I have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting on shammou, right, you know. So I'm like, I don't
want to see Blackfish. I don't want to know anything about it. I know it's probably terrible, but I don't need that guilt, you know. So she's said me this article and I read it, and I was so drawn into that rabbit hole, but I just I totally just jumped in and I bought his book and I read it overnight and I started like, as I'm reading the book on like highlighting themes that I see in my head and different things, and he's the author is just
so interesting. A personal story is so interesting beyond the fact that he worked at Ye World. And the day after I read it, my girlfriend was in Long Beach and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author, who doesn't even live out here, and she went up to him, was like, you gotta pass to my boyfriend. He's got a great idea. You know, how to turn your book through a movie. He can do it. We can do
it together, you know, give him a call. So before he could call me, I'd already like hyped up a pitch you know of why I should write this movie and what my version of his story is, which was essentially to take audiences into the tank with him and grow that emotional connection that he had with the Killer Will. And so I sent him the email called me the next day and we talked for like four hours and just became really good friends, and he was pretty much like,
all right, where do I sign? So from there, we wrote a thirty page treatment and he took that and we pitched it all over town to all different companies, and the consensus was, this movie is great. You know, this idea is great, but we need you to spect the script. So I spec that feature out and then we sent that back and it just it just at that point, you know, this is a matter of a few months, just to go back to what we were
just talking about. Those companies had already changed their mandate and it was like, well, now we're looking for thrillers or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon, and we don't think this fits that mandate, blah blah blah. So it's fine. So we sent that around and and I had met with an executive at Ellen Pompio's company, Calamity. Jane Pompio is Meredith Gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we had talked about a couple of projects and she is
a big anti SeaWorld person. So you know, they only have a TV deal with ABC, they don't do any films. So I reached out to my manager, you know, on my My girlfriend is like, you need to you need to send it over to them. And I'm like, well, they only have a TV deal, and she's like, just do it. Just do it because the moral of my life and right now is my girlfriend Rachel's always right
to be comple be honest with you. And every time she tells me that I need to do something she's and I disagree with her and I end up doing it. Everyone benefits from So I've learned that the hard way, but she's always right. And so we sent it over to them and they called and they were like, we love this. You know, we don't know how to do this, but we love this, and we want to reach out to someone else to try and see if we can
partner with them because we don't make movies. And it just so happened that person that they wanted to reach out to was Lauren Schuer Donner, who of course is the amazing producer of all the X Men films and Deadpool, and she produced Free Willy. And she's the wife of Richard Donner, who everyone knows is the director of Superman, the Omen Bethileppin, The Gooney's all that, and they're big
anti activity, anti fur anti zoo, all that. So we went down the line with them and they were interested, and at the end of the day, it just wasn't something that they felt they wanted to go down again because they again, they produced Free Willy, and they got kind of attacked for that at a time, and they were like, we don't really want to do that again. So my manager went in and he met with the head of their company and he was like, well, what
else Mike want to do? And my manager started talking to him about a couple of projects that I had that everyone considers to be ambling in tone, as in seven Spielbert's Pression Company, of course, and he was like, well, we wanted to do a Doonies too for a long time, and we've heard a lot of pitches and we've got a lot of treatments. So I'm basically every writer.
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In Hollywood, and nobody can get you know, Dick and Stephen and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of the sequel. What do you want to do that? And my manager's like, yeah, of course he wants to do that. I mean, he's kidding me, right. So I get a call and my manager and he's like, what do you think about the Goonies And I'm like, are you serious? Like, of course I want to do there. I mean, of course I want to throw, you know, throw my cards in it. And really try to throw in my hand,
but it was quite a challenge. So we sat down and I watched the original movie a dozen times again and came up with a with an idea for a new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel, I wouldn't I wouldn't really say, but sort of like, how do I force awakens the Goonies? Right?
Yeah, and uh, I think again, because I don't know how how. I don't want to go to in depth of it, but there's there is one thing I want to say that that it was I think was awesome that you did and when this was since since will, when I Willi's treasure was found, the town itself was basically had become Hey, nobody, it's not special anymore because there's no more there's no more treasure to.
Find, right Toltally, it's it's how do you tell this story? You know, thirty something years after the first movie took place, and it also you know, I love the Goounies and everyone loved the Gunies, but it's a it's a product of it of the year it came out, right, and you really it would be really hard to make that kind of movie today because there's just constraints with the way that budgets work and just having an all kid
casts and all these different things. So it was really how do I in a way bring the magic and tone of the original into today's marketplace and into today's kids in the world of today's kids, And then how do I bring select members of the cast back and have them involved. So I don't know, I don't know if the movie will ever get made. I don't know if they'll ever be a new Gooney's movie, because it's
hard for everyone to agree on something. But you know, decas it and he's reading in I'm just waiting to hear back from him now. So do you ever think, Mike, that you would ever maybe use this treatment as a sort of like a pitch for other projects? So maybe, like, you know, if you ever they ever said, hey, Mike, what else if you were working on You'll say, hey, I've worked on this Gooney's treatment for for you know, and I pitched it to Richard Donner.
And you know, would you ever at any point ever do.
Something like that. Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've brought that up in the room, you know, because everyone collectively loves the Guneyes, So when you bring that up and if you know, they want to kind of know what the basis of the pitches, and you know, without giving too much away, you give that to them and then they can kind of see how your mind works when adapting other material. You know, source material, which is
key right now because that's what everyone's doing. And it's actually funny because of the project that I'm most excited about and currently developing that I can't really say the name of what it is and who the players are, but it's two veteran producers who made, you know, a lot of movies, and it's an adaptation of a classic
story by a well respected author. And I partially believe that, you know, it was sort of a combination of Beneath the Surface, which is a cer World movie, that script getting me in the door with them, and then me saying, you know, oh, by the way, right now, I'm also writing a treatment and pitching a Gooney sequel, and here's kind of how I'm doing it and how I'm adapting it.
So so so as you know you're going to these pitch meetings and as you are sort of working on things, you know, one of the things that you and I always talk about is development and you know sort of and sort of managing expectations. So what are some of the things that you know, you can sort of discuss about, you know, development, Like let's just say, for instance, let's just give a scenario example. Let's just say that somebody does buy a script. It's a completely original specscript, they
were to buy it. You know what, what are some of the things that happened at development.
It's interesting. I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of always felt or or or still feel that once you get to the point in your career where you're actually meeting with the real producers, you know, not just the assistance or anything like that, but the actual people who can sign a check, that everything just changes.
But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right, so you climb up to the top of Everest, only to realize is that there's another like, you know, six hundred miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall. And that that's how it feels. So I think, you know, when someone comes along and they buy a spec, they're gonna do one of two things. If it's a big spec, like if we're talking, you know, Blockbuster Temple, they're going to hire a studio writer to do a polish. And
that's partially two. If it's a if it's a big studio and they're they've got shareholders that they have to convince, it's that it's like, well, we'll have the Coen Brothers come in and they'll do a polish on all the dialogue and everyone will be happy to give us the money to make the movie. If it's a smaller contained kind of genre film, like a ten qulverfilled lane or
something like that, then it's a whole different conversation. Then then you could be the sole writer, unless they hire a writer director who wants to come in and do a polish as well. The other end of the coin is when in the situation I'm in now is that it has something pitched to me. You know, So I go in and I pitch five movies, and they want to one of the movies I pitch, and they also, but you know, but first we want to do one of the ones that we're looking at with you, So
they pitch me the movie. Then it's you know, I got to look at the source material, which is a book. I got to figure out how am I going to add my voice or you know, what's my style with this source material, and then it just begins this really lengthy process of development that nobody really understands, and I'm just still learning it as I go, because one, every executive and producer is different, and two it's just not something that anybody ever talks about in film school or
anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's it's very much like, Okay, read the book and then give us an outline, right, that was the first thing. It's like, give us an online of how you would adapt it. So then I sit down and I write, you know, like a ten to twelve page outline and it's basically in pros that's just how I write my outlines. And I send it over to them and they're like, okay, great, well come into the office. I'm gonna talk about it. So go
in the office. They tell me what they love, they tell me what they don't really like, and then they tell me, you know, kind of how to help structure it. Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true, then you know, they categorize writers in two different categories. Right. One is a writer who can write character, and the
other is a writer who can write structure. And the key I think is to really understand character, because they can give you the structure if you can come up with the characters, and.
You can come up with what the real story.
Is behind everything and why you need to tell this story and why these characters are going throop what they're going through and not just you know, bye page twelve for at the inciting incident, blah blah blah blah blah, save the cat. If you can come up with the characters, they are paid to kind of look at it like math and look at it like plotting. So they're going to look at what you give them and they're gonna say, okay, so do you think this section of your outline is
like the first five pages? And you say, yes, that's first five pages and then blah blah blah, and it helps you. It helps them to plot it in their mind from a producing standpoint, whereas use the writers should be thinking about the characters. And when I look at a lot of movies and I see you know that, and I'm just unhappy with the screenplays, it's because they're coming at it from a complete structure and you know stand or POV and not from character. And I can
see it when I watch the movies. And I can also see complacency where it's like, you could have made that better, but you didn't because of one or two things. One, you're getting a paycheck and it doesn't matter because you know they're gonna market a shit out of the movie and million, million of million people are gonna see. Two because you're nervous.
You're in the room with these guys.
They have a bad idea and you're afraid to tell them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod, go home and find out how to best tweak their ideas that are worse than the story. And that, to me is what development is. It's this long process six months to a year, where you're beating out the story with producers in the hopes that at the end of this process they're either going to hire you to write the script or they're going to make a deal with you where you spec the script and then once the
project gets funded, then you get paid. Yeah.
And you know, there was an article, I think it was a wal Street journal about how you know why do so many of these these big budget movies feel the same. And that was the answer, was they think that there's too much, you know, save the cat structure in there because it's all structure.
Yeah, you know, and that's great. I mean, you need structure, but you should be the story guy. The writers should be the story guy. The writers should be the person who makes the audience feel for the themes and the characters and the film or the TV series.
The executives, the.
Suits, the money people.
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They should be the structure guys and girls. They should be the people who are looking at it from a plotting pov so that when they call a director who comes in, they can beat out the acts with the director and he totally understands what they're saying. It's like math. Let them do the math, but you have to provide them with the numbers.
So and you know, I was talking to somebody about this too. Was you know, if you look at movies in from like the seventies and the eighties, you know there's there's all these you know, really unique movies and you sort of as you sort of get to the sort of end of the nineties to now, you can see the big difference. And the big difference is it's almost like with now they want to sort of have creativity controlled where they know sort of what they're going
they want to have it. So it's almost like the project is handheld from all these steps and they're sort of like, Okay, you know now on page seventeen, this has to happen. On page twenty five, this has to happen. Stuff like that, right, right, totally.
It's interesting. I mean, I've never thought about writing like that ever in my life. I've never I've read all these books, and I've taken all these classes, and I've and I understand the logic, but I've never truly approached writing that way. I've always approached it as what is the story? Why is the story relevant? And how do I fit these characters and these things in just today's marketplace.
That's the only math I ever do. I don't worry about what happens by page thirty, with page twenty five or page sixty, not at least until after I've written out an outline or a treatment or even a first draft. Then I start to think Okay, how can I whittle this down? You know, how can I get the action started earlier? But I I the key is really to just do it, get it finished, and then you can always go back and correct it.
Yeah, it's like Tarantino on the Coln Brothers. They don't write, you know, by that either, you know, I know there's a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robertriguez, I know, he's those don't those guys don't write by the whole, like you know, hey, we have to have this happen by this page and stuff like that. And I think, you know, yeah, and I think what it happened is I think as you sort of try to crack this nut,
so to speak. I think that's where you see guys like Sidfield and Blake Saider to save the cat, they sort of wonder, you know, okay, how did they write this? There's somebody whoever script it is, how do they write this script? And what are what doct what are all the good things that they have in common? So these scripts that are you know, the top one percentile, what
are they actually doing versus what they're not doing? And I think that's then that's where all these systems come from, like you know, and that's where all these books come from.
Yeah, smart understand, and it's far to read the books and the smart to kind of get what you know, the end goal is and and understand the structure. But I just I don't think anything should ever be approached with structure in mind. First. I'm not saying you should have a first act that goes, you know, eighty pages, but I am saying that, you know, if you look at some of your favorite movies, like you just said,
they're not really going off of any structure. They're going off of what's the best way to tell the story.
Yeah, And I think also that I think that's why independent film now is sort of having, you know, it's sort of why you know, crowdfunding and everything else. I think its actually becomes more popular. That's gonna be where you know, more people are gonna say, you know, I could just crowd follow my movie for maybe twenty thirty forty thousand dollars and at least shoot it the way I want to, rather than rewrite it and try to actually you know, sell to an agency or whatever.
Right, Yeah, And I mean you can you can definitely do that and there's definitely ways to modifyze that and build the career off of that. I think my approach is, how can I get into the system and not change the system, but just bring that storytelling approach into the system with some of the bigger titles and bigger films, and to not be complacent and just say yes to everything, but to find the best way to tell the stories.
Because if you find the best way to tell a story and you can pitch it to an executive or producer and they know that what you're saying makes sense and is right, they're not going to tell you no. They don't want to make a bad movie. Like the goal isn't to make a bad movie. You just have to be ten steps ahead and be willing to tell them your idea. Yeah, it's uh, that is you know.
Key is is sort of how to communicate, right, So how do you communicate something without actually, you know, nobody wants to say no, but you also can't say yeah, So you have to communicate in a different way.
And I remember, yeah, I mean it's risk management. You know. You have to give them a way that they can tell their boss, or tell their financiers, or tell the studio that they have to deal with. You have to give it to them so that they can they can express the idea or the story or the structure or whatever you're presenting them with in the best way to their bosses.
Right, yeah, yeah, because that way, you know, obviously it's sort of you know how they nobody wants to be the person who says no. Because I was reading a book about this a few years ago and they said, you know, if you you don't want to tell you know, the next Vince Gilligan no, and then you know, if you if you work for that, that that studio and then all of a sudden needs a hit. And then he comes back and says, now, aren't you that person that said no to me?
Hell?
Aren't you that guy? Totally You're totally right, So you know, And Mike, I just wanted to ask one I have I have a few more final questions. I know we're starting to get on out of time, as I see the count. I didn't even I realized this, This conversation flew by. I didn't even realize how long we were talking. And so, you know, for writing competitions, what do you think are some of the top writing competitions out there right now for writers, ah oh Man.
I mean, I think it all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to get some representation, then I think, you know, Nichols is always great because it's such a well respected contest. I think that the tracking boards contests are really great. I know a lot
of people get reps based off of that. If you're trying to make some money, you know, put a little bit of money in your pocket, then I think there's a lot of genre based writing competitions that have money prizes, and maybe their contacts aren't as good as some of the other ones, but you're going to get some money out of it. So I think it's really how you
how you want to approach it. Do you want to build a career and get representation or do you want to get like forty g you know in the in the bank.
And you know, because I know you went through the you know, Script Shadows website and you were you know, I was just wondering, you know, because I know again as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the different opportunities out there, and you know, that's that's why I asked that question, just to see because every time I turn around, this new writing competition opening up, and yeah, I don't know a lot of them, you know.
I mean I don't. I'm not really familialuse I don't enter a lot of them. I mean, I think Blacklist is great if you have the money to spend on evaluations. So I think I think Blacklist is still a very good asset. Like I said, I love the guys at the tracking board. I think what they're doing is is great. And they have a lot of great managers and agents on their review boards that that do judge these scripts, and they do sign writers and give them other opportunities.
And I know that from a genre pov, like if you're doing a horror script or a sci fi script, is probably great genre contest. I don't that are offering cash prizes or or you know the opportunity to pitch a producer or or you know, producers are partnering with these contests. I don't. I just I'm not well versed in in their names and what they are exactly, But I agree that they're popping up every day.
Yeah, particularly the Bloodlist that came out of nowhere, and when I heard about what that is, I was like, Wow, that's a fantastic idea.
Yeah, it's a good one for sure. And by the way, for those.
Listing the blood List is uh, actually I realized that I said it, like there's probably actually explained what we do. So the bud List is the is the is the ranking of the top horror unproduced horror scripts that are out there. And this was put together by I think, is it Kelly Marshak is there or Kelly marsh Yeah, it's uh, it's she actually put this together, and it's it's sort of like the Blacklist, but for horror scripts.
And uh, you know, gu horror is so underappreciated man, And and I was just having this conversation that I day is like some of the best directors come from horror, like even someone like Spielberg, Like if you watch his action sequences and like Jurassic Park or some of the even the close Encounters and et they're all tension and horror based, Like it's all about building the anticipation for the scare or the reveal, and that's all classic horror filmmaking.
And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, especially when you look at so many great directors who come from it.
Yeah, it's so true. I mean, if you'll go all the people who started off for horror and uh and you know it was like particularly like guys like Sam Raimi. Uh, they started out totally.
I mean, look at his career like it's it's it's amazing. He has the career that anyone could dream for.
Yeah he does, and uh.
You know, and he's a great guy.
Yeah, and and and he's he's been, you know, making all these great projects and uh. Now look he's got the Evil Dead TV series.
And uh, exactly, and it's great, you know, and he's doing great things with it. He's just just launched Skydance Television. You've got a whole in the TV you know, profession company. And he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that is today's current TV mark.
Yeah. And uh, you know that's when now you know, you're we're talking about episodic stuff and that's something else too, is a game because everyone I swear Mike, it's always about you know, hey, feature films are great, but you know,
do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that like a TV pilot that can you know, go on for eighteen years like, uh, you know, but but yeah, totally yeah, yeah, And you know that's that's always something on too in the back burner that I've always been making sure I have at least a couple of you know, TV pilots and uh yeah, exactly, you know, anything, you know, just just making up, you know, just just in case they actually say, you know, hey, you know, what else
do you have? And you know you're ready to be prepared.
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And I also think, like as we you know, we talk about expectations and development and all and networking and all the stuff that we've talked about, I think being prepared, yeah, you know, I think you'll agree with this. I don't think you're ever really one hundred percent prepared. You can just do what you can do, and if and and sooner or later, if he keeps trying, you're going to be in the right place at the right time.
You gotta love the process, you know, you gotta love the process. You gotta be willing to get a day job if you need some money. You gotta be willing to sleep on a couch if you don't have a place to stay. You just gotta love the process of hitting the pavement, finding representation, and then taking that and exploiting that to the ends of the earth to meet all these traditions and executives and then hoping that you
get into development. And then you have to learn from love the process of development, which is hard because there's not a lot of money in it, and you know, if there is any at all, it's it's not a ton up front. So you have to really love the process and love how it feels to crack a story and to negotiate for plot points with executives and defend your case. You have to learn to love that, and if you can learn to fall in love with that, then the rest of it is is Kate.
Very well, said Mike. Mike, so we're just about out of time, and I agree, Mike, you have to love that process and you're just in closing way. I just want to ask, you, know, work, if you'll find you out online.
I'm always you know, I'm on Facebook, Michael kse Snyder, I'm on Twitter at m K Snyder nineteen ninety I'm always looking people to reach out and connect and if I can help, I'm more than happy to. I'm always looking to collaborate on different things and help put the pieces of the puzzle together.
Yeah, and everyone, Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my just to my mental role decks, Mike, I think I might might have known you longer than anybody else. No, no, no, though there's two of the people have had on a podcast where I've no longer than you. So you're like, you're like number, You're like the third or fourth person
in live people I've known long. I love it, but uh, because I just remembered there's a friend I had on here for middle School episode one with Chris Pireminico and Chris actually you know, Chris actually was a producer on Game Over and he also actually now teaches film and TV production, and that was that was a fun interview. And I'll give you this little snid bit. It was just funny because he he's like, I'm in I'm teaching now.
He's like so, so he's like, don't curse, don't tell any weird stories before and I'm like, oh Jesus christ Man, that's all I do. Is curse and tell. Yeah, if you take that away from me, I'm not Dave Bullets anymore. All I do is Chris tell weird stories.
That's awesome, that's You're right. Uh, I love it.
Yeah, very very true, Mike. Uh, and Mike again, I want to say thank you so much. You and I have been friends for years.
Uh.
You know, you're somebody whose opinion I really trust and I really, I really just know that you were going to hit a huge, colossal grand slam soon enough.
Thanks man, I really appreciate that and the feelings mutual, my friend. You know I think that. Yeah, your opinion is one of the opinions I value more than many others. You know, I send you work before other people see it because you're that guy man, you have you have great taste.
Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And everybody, everybody, make sure you go check out Mike. Seriously, this guy is always on the ball. He's always doing something really really cool. So please go check out Mike and Mike. Anything I'm gonna come back on, please let me know. I'd love to have you on. And uh, I wish you the best of luck man everything.
Thanks Man, I will. I'll take up on that.
It sounds good, buddy. I take care of you too, my friend.
I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.
Forward slash four four.
Thank you so much for listening to guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what.
I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.