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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four twelve. I Think every woman should have a blowtorch.
Julia Child broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categors micro budget, indie film, market and
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by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, Today on the show, we have Oscar nominated documentarians Julie Cohen and Betsy West. Now they are the creative force behind the new documentary Julia, which is about the legendary Julia Childs, and we discuss how they approach documentary, how they work the story, how they get the interviews, all the kind of creative story points of how they approach
dealing with a legend. They had some experience with that because they also did the Oscar nominated the Notorious RBG, which is of course Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the late Great Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and we talked a little bit about how that project got off the ground and how they were able to put that whole thing together because she'd been very private most of her life, and we just get into the weeds of documentary in this episode, So without any further ado, please enjoy my
conversation with Julie Cohen and Betsy West. I'd like to welcome to the show, Julie Cohen and Betsy West. How you guys doing.
We're great, Alex.
We've just been having a lot of lasts before we started recording, so I do appreciate you guys coming on. I did have the chance to watch your amazing new doc Julia about Julia Childs, who I am a huge fan of, a fan of, and I've loved your past work as well, which were going to get into, but let's just jump in. How did you guys get how did you guys team up and how did you get started in documentary?
Well, big question, big question.
We teamed up through a project called The Maker's Project, which was possibly not so surprising given us some of the work that we've done subsequently about the history of the modern women's rights movement.
Oh, very cool.
Yeah, that was like ten or so years ago, and then you know, we went our separate ways more or less. And then in twenty fifteen, as Justice Ginsburg was kind of blowing up on the internet for the sense she was writing, and we had I both interviewed her. Prior to that, we came up with the idea of doing that documentary, and then subsequent to that, we've been working on a few films together.
Now, what was it about a documentary for each of you that made you want to go? I went to this side of storytelling, the side of the industry.
You know, when I look back on it, I always loved documentaries, and you know, I loved as a kid. I will now date myself watching the world at war and you know, just longer storytelling. But you know, I became a broadcast network news producer and behind the scenes producer, working on shorter format and then magazine pieces. Julie and I have sort of a similar background. But I always loved documentaries back in the day, even when they were kind of it was kind of the D word, you know,
documentaries weren't so hot back then. But that's really what I wanted to do.
Yeah, I mean, similar deal for me, also came from the broadcast news world.
Also just love documentaries like I like movies, like movie movies.
So doing tell real stories in the format of movies is really fun. Like my favorite art is always true story art. I love photography, I even love music that's kind of documentary, as you know, the Bruce Springsteen's like Ghost of Tom Joad album that's really sort of like a documentary in an album.
Like anything that's anything.
That's real feels like kind of some of the coolest stories to tell.
Now, how do you guys choose the subject matter that you guys tackle, Because it doesn't take you know, six months, three months to make one of these things. It generally takes a few years. And but how do you guys choose and then how do you stay stay interested in it for so long?
Well, I mean you put your finger on it, Alex. Really, you have to choose things that you want to spend two or three or four years on or else you know, you'll go nuts. And I think, you know, with Justice Ginsburg, it was kind of one of those light bulb ideas of oh my goodness, what an amazing story, a current story, a backstory, a love story. I mean, you just couldn't have anything better than working on that.
You know.
After that film, we started looking around for other projects and thinking about other women who perhaps had not been appreciated so much, and you know, had had really been groundbreakers, had really changed our world, and that's when we landed on the idea of doing Julia.
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely not a formula that we have.
It's the main decision point is like do we want to delve into this because it is otherwise, like you know, making a documentary. As you're in the film, audiences probably know like it's it's it's just it's a lot of work, it's a lot of time, a lot of the process is a big pain in the butt. So the reward side is feeling like you really love the subject matter, and we just realized like, oh, this one could really be fun.
It's so different than.
The other stories that we've worked on in our careers, and there was just like so much joy involved in kind of deliciousness, and it seems like subject matter that we really really might kind of groove on you No.
I think it also was a kind of filming challenge for us to do something different. Yes, Julia has archive, but also the opportunity to do some high end food photography, which neither of us had really done before, and to really dig into that we thought would be would be super fun.
Now, going back to RPG, what was what was it like working with her, interviewing her, being in the room with her. I mean, I have to ask, because she's essentially an icon at this point, and she wasn't icon while she was a living icon when she was with us. What was that like? And how did you even approach that? When did did you just call up I would like to make this film about you? How did the whole process come to be.
You know, step by step? Basically, we approached Justice Ginsberg pretty carefully and strategically. And initially when we went to her with the idea of doing a documentary, she said, you know, not yet, I'm not ready. This was, you know, when she was in her early eighties. We're thinking, okay,
but we she didn't say no to us. So then we came back a couple of months later with the idea of, oh, well, we're just going to start to interview people with your friends and colleagues and whatever, you know, to kind of get her approval for that, and then we took it from there. So it was we didn't go in saying, oh, yeah, we want to do a documentary and can we go with you to the gym?
By the way, like we didn't start out with that ask even though in our minds we were thinking it would be fun to go with her to the gym, but it was a slow building of trust.
It was a step by step. So when you're approaching a subject, a subject like that who is so high profile, you can't walk in with guns of blarin You have to really kind of really baby step your way in to that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I mean, I think you're always trying to.
Ask questions to which you can get the answer yes, So those need to be small questions.
First.
You don't come at some you have to think of it from their perspective, Like you don't come at someone with like a really like, oh, we're going to impose on you.
So much, We're going to take up so much of your time.
We're going to you know, pick apart every aspect of your career. No, it's not like that, You're like, I mean, the way to get the process going is to try to start to get it going, So trying to come up with things that you think that your subject might agree to.
And in this case, as.
Betsy says, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor out back to the show.
You know, the initial thing wasn't even about us interviewing or even filming the justices herself. It was about like, oh, is it okay with you if we start to interview some of the people who you've worked with in earlier phases of your career, just so that the project, so that she starts to get the sense that this project
is moving forward. And here back from people that we interviewed, like, oh, you know, these women were pretty serious about what they were doing, and they seemed like they'd done some research, and you know, they seemed like they came in with this amazing you know, woman cinematographer who had like greater like this is like a real production happening here.
So then you get that sense.
And then at that stage, Justice Gisberg let us start filming some of you know, some public events that she was doing, and then later some more intimate or private events, and then the actual interview didn't happen until you know, to near the end of the process, actually two years into filming.
Now I have to ask, I mean, how nervous were you to show it to her?
Well, you know, amazingly, Justice Ginsburg never asked to see the film ahead of the screening at Sundance and which we thought was a real act of trust, or maybe she was just too busy or who don't but you
can't ask. She agreed to go to the Sundance Film Festival, so we had both our major first premiere at Sundance there with Justice Ginsburg sitting across the aisle from us, and it was completely totally nerve wracking, and you know, we were kind of watching her the sock of our eyes the entire time, as opposed to watching the film.
And you know, she started laughing right at the beginning because there is sort of a kind of funny opening sequence with statues saying mean things about her, and then you know, just a little ways in she pulled had a tissue and wiped her eye and it was it was incredible. I can't even tell you what it was like to experience that and to have her like like the film and appreciate it. I mean, it just meant everything to us.
And you guys, would did you guys premiere at the eCos at Sundance or was it that the Egyptian.
Give us the other I try to remember, but it was.
The Egyptian, the big one, Mark, Okay, it was just I was just trying to visualize it.
Yeah, about five hundred people that had like a sort of bleachery, right, there's sort of bleacher seats and yeah.
That must have been And then and then with the whole oscar stuff going around, what was that like when you got that call?
Well, you know, you don't get a call and you watch it on watch what you watch everyone else? The nominations being announced, and certainly it was fun.
But we had our we our husbands made us breakfast. So we're at my house and we had a really nice breakfast that we sat there. And actually our name, the RBG name, was the last one in the list of the nominees, so we actually thought when they named the fourth one and it wasn't us, we thought, okay, that's it. You know. We didn't so that that accounted for our rather exuberant reaction, and it was more a reaction like you're kidding.
We were really we were quite surprised.
So so as the inaudacious were being an nice we're like just past the hash Browns. It's like it's over already.
We weren't that casual. We had eaten already.
Okay, good, I got you.
That's because we were the last one to be announced as the other.
You know, as the other.
Films are being named, you sort of start to get the that you're not gonna.
Be No, what was the biggest lesson you learned from working on RBG?
Hi? The biggest lesson from art working on RBG? I mean, I guess persistence. You know, slow and steady wins the game.
I mean, that's what RBG did in her life. Lots of setbacks, lots of discouragement, you know, for a super smart person who gets out of law school and can't get the kind of job that she really deserved, and then you know, just started finding this opportunity to challenge not only the discrimination that she faced, but the discrimination that all American women faced, and a world that people
took for granted where women were second class citizens. I mean, kind of an extraordinary thing that really came out of the obstacles in front of her. So I guess it's a lesson of persistence and don't let anger get the best of you. Think strategically, Okay, you're up against a wall. How am I going to get past that? That was her approach.
Now, when you guys are laying out a film, how do you lay out the story. Do you discover the story along the way? Is there an outline? What is the actual documentary process as far as you guys are concerned, Yeah.
The process is sort of like continually organizing and outlining the story and changing that as you go along. Like certainly at various stages we have a rough idea of thoughts of what you want the structure of the film to be. Then at a certain point in the process, our editor gets involved.
And in the case of both RBG and Jewel, oh yeah, are the same.
Brilliant editor Carla Gucierrez was part of that process with us.
So you sort of, you know, we sort of you have.
Very you know, you're very tentative outlines in mind, but often what works the best, I mean, we we like to.
Start, you know, in the.
Same way that I was saying, you're trying to get to it, yes, pretty or you know, we try to start with some scenes that we really think are going to work, not worry about like the whole thing in one in one sitting, but just like you know, take a bite of it, take a small slice of what the story might be, and like once there's a really beautiful scene, then that gives you the optimism that you need to push to the next level and sort of piece things together and if they're working, keep going in
the direction that things are working, and if they're not working, make revisions to the parts that aren't working.
Yeah, I mean, we do use, you know, the sort of modern method of the little post its on a wall, which filmmakers know where you have you write the scenes and the things that you expect you're going to have to cover, and you put them on a wall. Only we do it digitally now with this thing called jamboard, which you can use to just move scenes around and
as Julie said, we start cutting scenes. I mean, in the case of Julia, one idea we had was, Okay, people have seen this archive of Julia, you know, the her cooking lessons have been repeated thousands of times and you know, people love watching them. But how fun to deconstruct the making of that show of the French Chef
from the very beginning. And we have the opportunity to do that because the producer Russ Morash is still around, and we found the stage manager Alex Pirie, and you know, sat them down and had them take us through what it was like to put together this show, this groundbreaking show in nineteen six, and it was so fun, you know, to get the scenes of the kind of makeshift studio that they had and the photographs that Julia's husband took
behind the scenes. I mean, I think people going to a documentary they want to experience a world, you know, they want to be immersed in a world that they didn't necessarily know. They may know the characterization of Julia, they may cook some of Julia's food, but do they really understand Julia's world and what it took to become Julia child. And that's what we were trying to get at.
Yeah, what I was, what I found so wonderful about the film was that, you know, my experience with Julia's obviously, I know her growing got my mom had the book and everything. I probably saw her on TV once or twice, but it was Julia, and it was Julie Julia, Julia that the midl Street Julia, Yeah, Yeah, which was a fantastic film, but that was the introduction to her story, and it kind of skims over a lot of stuff
because it's you know, it's a it's a movie. But what you guys did was you went so deep into it and I really didn't realize how groundbreaking she truly was. I mean she she changed how America cooked it was, uh and also was you know, a women's rights icon as well. But before we keep going, what did how did Julia come? How did you decide on Julia and and said, Okay, we're going to spend three four years with Julia? And how long did it take?
Yeah, I mean you could say it took it.
It was three years from the time that we sort of first considered maybe doing it and the time the film came out. But like the first year of that is just trying to make the whole thing happen and trying to get someone who's going to fund it, and trying to get the various entities, mainly the Julia Child Foundation as well as WGBH, the the Boston PBS station that had you know, rights to so much of that archive.
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Like getting everyone on board kind of took a year and then two years basically to make the film, and like the decision was as for the reasons that you said, because because Julia was groundbreaking and groundbreaking in ways that we're going to let us in our film show the context of like what was the crappy food that Americans were eating in the pre Julia era? What was the vision of women on television that was being that we're
you know, being elevated before Julia came on the scene. Like, in order to understand how big a leap she made, you had to know what the world was before, and that gave us the opportunity in our film to like set those contexts.
And we knew because we know those worlds, like we know about food.
And we know about sexism, So we understood that we would be able so that it would actually be pretty entertaining to lay that stuff out into film form.
Yeah. And what I loved also is that you you really focused on the love story, like her love story with her husband is it's just beautiful. On what he did was groundbreaking as well, a man of his generation to just push her in the into the spotlight and he was happy in the background. Is so it was, like you said it in the documentaries, like that just doesn't that that didn't happen at those guys.
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean we are attracted to story to subjects who have a good love story, and certainly the Paul and Julia's story is fantastic because it starts out with Paul being the one who is opening up Julia to the world. You know, she had lived a rather privileged and sheltered life until she volunteered for World War Two and met Paul in the in Salon where they were both posted. And you know, he was a worldly guy ten years old, knew about art culture, knew
about food, you know. So when they married and moved to France for his job with the State Department, that's when Julia just blossomed and discovered her passion for food and started cooking for Paul, which was really good for him. And we have, you know, a scene in the film kind of illustrating some of the benefits that Paul and Julia's love affair in France. And then, as you said, something unusual happened. Paul's career was in decline, he had
left the State Department. He really didn't have anything to do. They'd moved back to the United States, and Julia suddenly her cookbook after twelve years, is published, and she goes on television and becomes a kind of superstar, and Paul's reaction to that was just to help her every step of the way, to believe in her, believe even her when she was writing the book that nobody else thought was a good idea, and to believe in her when she became a superstar, and to continue to help her
for the next three decades. It's kind of extraordinary.
It's extremely extraordinary. And the other thing I found that watching the documentary is that she was absolutely fearless, like she threw herself into whatever, and she didn't care what anyone else said. How old was she when she started in this stage of her life. Wasn't she in her early fifty as.
She was fifty years old when she first showed up on television, Like Julia was not famous until she was fifty, which truthfully is another part of the story that we really loved, and you know, just like a good reminder for audiences and particularly kind of young women in the audience to see, like, no, you actually don't have to have had it all together and be ready to break out when you're twenty two. There are all kinds of different paths people can take.
And you know, so that that was.
You mean, you didn't have it all figured out at twenty two. I mean, I obviously, I mean.
Yeah, I mean I think I think there's something about the fact that Julia did have this later in life success that gave her the sort of confidence that she had, you know, and once once she got there, she really she really was pretty strong in her beliefs about how to carry on in her life, just in all aspects, and yet also someone who evolved and who changed. And we love that part of the story as well. It's not just like, oh, Julia went on television in the
early sixties, it became famous and that was it. I mean, there were there were many more chapters and some challenges when she was kind of being pushed off the air by PBS, and how she met that challenge, and and how she evolved in her thinking on social issues like homosexuality, which was you know, pretty major in the nineteen eighties, and and she really changed her thinking and her prejudice
frankly about homosexuals. So those parts, those aspects of the story of Julia's ongoing evolution, you know, really appealed to us.
The persistence that Julia had is absolutely remarkable to be on a book for twelve years. I mean many filmmakers listening and writers listening could really feel that because I said, yeah, we were on the book for twelve to sit and to do anything for twelve years, and to keep going and to keep going no matter what when there was no hope. There was really no There was no there was no signpost anywhere that said this was a good idea.
It's not like you're making a movie and they're like, well, other movies have been made before and made money or were successful. There was nothing like it, and she's just kept trying until finally someone opened the do it for her. It was just it was just so inspiring to see that.
Yeah, I mean I think that Julia and the French colleagues that she was working with to develop that book really felt strongly that what they were doing was a good idea and would be valuable for home cooks. And that was that was the deep impetus, as you say, there was there was nobody saying this is.
A fantastic idea.
They had gotten an extremely small advance money that would have long run out, but in the first year, let alone the twelfth year, it wasn't like there was you know, nobody was chomping at the bit waiting for this book.
They would just like had this vision like, oh, this would.
Be amazing, And I think they felt like they would get some real fulfillment out of putting on you know, putting down on paper, like some of the amazing French techniques of cooking that you know that are well known in France and very much not known in the US.
Like they thought it would be a worthwhile thing to do. And that's where it started. Not so much.
I mean like, yes, of course they want commercial success. As the twelve years go on, that is seeming less and less likely you want.
And I think that's that's a lesson that everyone listening needs to take on. It's like, if you believe in your stuff is something that's just so believed and the world hasn't caught up to that idea. It took the world twelve years to catch up to that idea essentially, and then it took another It took a little bit longer for them to catch up with her being a fifty year old TV star on PB I mean, it's just insane. It's like a PBS in Boston somewhere. It's like she makes an omelet and then all of a
sudden like, hey, you want to show. Okay, we don't know how to do a show, let's just do this. And it just it's like if you would write it in a screenplay, you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense.
Well, you know the part of that that I just love is that, you know, Julia just connected with the audience immediately. It wasn't like the executive said, oh, we've got a potential star here, let's invest in this Julia child person. Let's bring her along. You know, No, they said, okay, we'll do three shows. Well, you know, we'll pay you a minimal amount of money. And you know, she was instantly just memorable. You know, people were like, who is
that woman? That crazy voice? But she's funny, but and she knows a lot and we loved watching her. So to me, it's this example of going direct to the audience, and you know that that's how it happened. It was not the TV execs who were doing it.
And what I loved also that you mentioned in the documentary was the SNL skit by Dan Aykroyd, which I always wondered. I'm like, I wonder if she actually got a kick out of that or not? And it's and the answer is in the documentary you were like, oh, okay, she brought it out constantly and constantly bringing it out to show people. That must have been I mean, she was an icon. She was even in the seventy five. Was that seventy five?
Yes?
And remember, I mean remember what you know what SNL in the seventies was what a huge big deal.
It was just like, you know, one.
Of our characters mentions that, Like in the early days of Julia's show in the mid sixties, everyone would be like, did you see Julia Child? You know this week, have you seen Julia's episode? And of course that's what SNL was by the mid seventies, like every Sunday, I mean I was a kid at that point and every Sunday it was just like breaking down what happened on SNL the night before. And I think that Julia understood that having dan Aykroyd impersonate her was a real sign of you know, cultural.
So she appreciated that.
But like, you know, the problem, I mean, at the time, I think it's so fantastic. The problem is the decades have gone on that Betsy and I kind of came to discover that people who are familiar with Julia vaguely like that's what they remember that, you know, a caricature of a completely zany, completely off the rails.
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Like drunk lady, you know, with the chicken, and like you know.
Judi Child actually was a lot more than that. Not only was she a true expert in food and bringing that expertise to Americans like in a way that mattered. So we are amused by that, as Julia was, but we also wanted to, you know, the whole point of the film is kind of to tell you what the real story is behind that caricature.
Yeah. Absolutely, and you did a fantastic job doing that. Now did you learn what life lessons did you learn from Julia? I mean, because you I mean, when you go into when you go into a subject matter like this, like with RPG, that you you have to something has to rub off on you. So what was that one?
I'll tell you one. You know, I like to cook, but often weeks go by before I really do cook, and and sometimes my ambition gets the better of me, like I think I can create some great thing, and it's like it's ten of seven and the guests are coming soon, and I'm like doing four different dishes, and often I'll be disappointed with how one or the other came out, and I in the past would apologize, oh, you know, like this corn thing, it was supposed to
rise more or whatever. I am never ever apologizing again for a dish that I serve to people, I mean, and I love that attitude. Julia's hall point was, Oh, you make a mistake, you make the best of it. You turn the potato soup flee into something else, and you just serve it. You know. So you turn the dessert that flopped into a soup and you serve it
and you not apologize. So that's my life lesson. And I, once the pandemic and the shutdown is over and I actually am entertaining regularly again, I plan to implement that advice.
And again a before her time feminist message, because like apologizing.
For one right, it's a big lady problem.
Like it just you know, you do have an inclination when you're presenting what you've done to a room full of people to start pre telling them like everything that's.
Wrong with what you did.
Oh, this was actually supposed to be that I used baking flower when I was supposed to.
Use fell on the floor.
Just serve the book like, and Julia was like, you know, we all make mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes, but that said, don't like apologize for them, just like you know, say that's what you know, say you meant this to be.
That kind of dish.
It's like everyone like, if you, if you did it, if you give it a little hype like the boys often do, that's gonna that's gonna change people's perception of it and of you, and it's a great it's a great Julia Lesson.
Yeah, as you know, I mean, I was I was raised surrounded by women. So I have no brothers or sisters, but I was just women, very strong women around me at all times. And now with my family, my daughters and my wife, I have no testosterone at all in my life, just the cat, and the cat got fixed. So I feel that And as a young man, you never ever taught to apologize for anything. You just go
with it, you roll with it. And as I'm teaching my girls that, I'm like, no, no, I'm teaching them to be strong women, and to teach them from a male side point of view and also from a female side point of view with my wife of like, no, this is the world and this is what you're going to be walking into. And my god, I can't even imagine walking into the world that she walked into or she lived in, you know, it's such a different world.
Yeah, and then imagine the world in France. I mean, we love that part of the film in France to kind of create how what kitchens were like there, I mean, talk about a macho, sexist environment Julia Child walked into, you know, going to the cord Umbleau with the master chef, and the students were all male gis from the US who were using the gi build to further their education before they went back to cooking restaurants in the United States.
And Julia is the only woman. We love that. And she seemed to have a kind of confidence about her, which I think was you know, just part of her makeup. You know that she she didn't mind being six foot two. Some women really don't like being so tall. Didn't seem to bother her. She married a man who was shorter than she was. I mean, she didn't have that self consciousness. And I think also in breaking into a male world that she found herself in France, she was just very
matter of fact about it. I want to learn how to cook. This is the best place to do it, and please, you know, let me into this class, and of course impress them all.
And again that fearlessness and what she said, because she towered over most men, I mean easily. I think that's also probably a little bit where the confidence came from, because she'd always towered over over men's in many ways. I mean, this is just me, my my psychoanalysis of it, but you know, she does feel that that kind of vibe.
And you see these pictures of her in the in the documentary where she's these guys are just so small, She's just towering over and it's just the confidence to do whatever she wants.
It's it's pretty interesting, is even though all of the ways that you know, we're kind of socialized as women sometimes to be a little apologetic or a little demure or not show yourself, you know, off into the world. And Julia's self self confidence and the feelness and the and and the being her selfness is exactly what the audience has responded to. They completely got that this was an authentic person. They saw that they're seeing the real Julia.
They liked that she was fearless, They liked that she wasn't apologizing, they liked that she was loud, even like everything that was real about Juia, which is a lot of things that girls actually aren't taught to be even still, is actually what the public really responded to, and not just women like guys liked her too.
Yeah, And that's the thing. I love the word to use, authentic because that's exactly what she was RBG is that they were who they were, and they were comfortable in their own skin and weren't trying to impress. They weren't trying to be something they're not. They weren't putting an Instagram filter on themselves in many ways, and that's what
people are drawn to. I mean, in all of your work, even doing news and other things throughout your career, have you noticed the same thing I have is that the people who get the attention some not all the times, but they are who they are and they're not trying
to be something they're not. Generally speaking, especially the important people meaning important people, meaning that people who are changing the world, people are being of service to the world, like RBG, like Julia, because I mean, you can't fake Julie like that was that's a hell of a performance. If she's pulled that off for so many years, that's who she was. Do you find that that's one of those common factors in all the work that you've done over the years.
It's an interesting question. I'm not sure that I would want to make that generalization across the board.
No, it's case by case, right, I.
Think it's somewhat case by case. I mean, look, people are very different. There's such a huge variety of people, and sometimes you know, you'll what was so and so, like, Oh, they're exactly like what they are, you know, what you would imagine on television, and you know, you know, you
can say that, but that's not always the case. There are certainly people who have a pretty good public and I think that's you know, sometimes there are interests of introverted people who then get in front of a camera and they kind of transform into something else. And I'm not saying I'm gonna call that phony. I'm just saying that's the way they are, and then they get off camera and Okay, that's it. You know, they're moving on to something else. I mean that was not the case
with Julia. I mean, Julia was an extremely outgoing people person, loved being on television and loved meeting people in the grocery store. It didn't really matter to her. So I would say it's true of her, and it's and it's you know, I think Justice Ginsberg a very different character of you know, really was an introvert who later in life had this amazing celebrity. But she was pretty true to her personality I think throughout and was very much the same, you know, off and on camera, I think
in a way. But I wouldn't want to un realize it to everybody, do you agree, Julie.
Yeah, yeah, well it was when it was when Alex brought in our broadcast news careers.
That we were both like.
Some people that were I mean, you know, look, there are people that have gotten called out in recent you're being the same nice guy on television that they in real life that they might have appeared.
To be on your morning television show. So I'm just.
Saying there is there's that, Yes, there was this, Yes, Juliu had a nice smile on her face as you were talking back. She's like, Okay, I got yep, it's in my head. I know it is. Now I have to ask you, what do you think Julia would do with today's technology of social media, of all of that stuff. Do you think she would have Would she have an Instagram account even in the later the years of her life, would she be out there really kind of connecting with
her audience in that way. We'll be right back after or a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
In your opinion, well, there's an interesting mixed thing like of Jua.
My husband actually always likes to talk about it.
There's there's some uh, there's some hypothetical about like what Napoleon had had.
To be fifty two? And like, well, of course this is sort of cellar.
What if Julia had had I think I think even might be an esnl skin, But what if Julia had had Instagram?
There's sort of there's sort of a two part answer.
One is that the whole love of food on Instagram is really the world that Julia created, that like, food is this amazing thing that so much it's not just what we get to nourish ourselves, but you know, it's like to be celebrated and shown off and like so that's like really validation of who Julia was.
On the other hand, Julia had a role. We mentioned it in the film.
She called it French rules, which is when your food is served and still hot, you eat it immediately. You do not stop what you're doing to take the most glomorous overhead. Food is meant to be eaten, not photographs.
So on both sides of that, Now, did you guys find yourself eating more? Why do you mean this thing? Because I found myself wanting to eat, Whereas those beautiful food footage that you guys were shooting I knew were an archival because I was looking like, oh that's fresh. Did you find yourself like, I mean, did you find a new respect for food? Did you find a new uh? Just you know all of that while making.
This Yeah, I mean we have to say that we filmed most of it before the shutdown. We filmed a lot of it in twenty and nineteen, including an amazing trip to France that was really so much fun to be to visit Julius haunts and to eat some great food. But you know, I think when the shutdown happened, all of us changed our relationship and chip to food and to cooking, and you know, I found myself going to the farmer's market, you know, shopping outside and thinking more
about fresh food. And definitely, you know, both my husband and I were just cooking for each other every single night. And one night we've made like a list of all of our regular dishes that we liked, you know, that we're in our rotation, and they were like about I don't know, forty five of them that were in our now in our rotation, and I think so we really
expanded our possibilities. And I guess that was partly about the pandemic, and I think partly because all day long, you know, I was being immersed in this world of food. In the middle of the pandemic. We managed to do the high end cinematography that you see throughout the film that which was last summer that we filmed under somewhat difficult circums dances with everybody masked or whatever, and created
a studio down in Chelsea and replicated Julia's kitchen. Our producer, Holly Siegel, did an incredible job basically having a shop construct Julia's kitchen and sourced all the copper pots and the Garland stove and everything else, and then filmed for about a week with our cinematographer, Claudi Rashki, And then similarly in France, we were filming with a photographer using macro technology, really tight shooting and slow mo of the
food that was Nanda Brettelard in Paris. We'd intended for the two of them to be together or to but because of the pandemic that was not possible, so we did the parachute remotely. So there was a lot of thinking about food, and I guess it did influence us.
Yeah, And we brought in a fruit food stylist and cook Susan Spungen, who not only prepared all the film and actually you prepared all the food and you actually see her in the film sometimes because it's kind of her hands that are rolling out the dough and that sort of thing, but helped us in the substantive quest of figuring out which Julia Child recipes would work well
with which scenes. Like one example is we wanted to show something kind of messing up during the phase that they're experimenting with all different recipes and we talked to Susan about like, oh, what could we show that would like screw up all the time. She came up with hollandaiy sauce and how it breaks and looks all curdly and disgusting, and then you know, for looking for the sort of love in the afternoon sensual scene, we asked
her and we had a number of discussions. You know, what is the So what dessert is like the sexiest, like what do you think? And we went in thinking it was going to be chocolate, because when you think desserts like chocolate is the first in your mind. But then she described to us that pair of tart and every step, all the rolling the dough and the poaching
the pears in red wine and that custard. Now I'm going to have to go anyt But so when you talk about like were we in, I mean, you know, just the enthusiasm for even certain certain food groups definitely grew during the production of this film.
Yeah, that tart. When I was watching it is it is a fairly sensual tart. I had no idea tart could be sensual. I was watching I was like, Wow, I want to, I want to, I want to have a slice of that right now. Now, where can people watch the film? And when?
As we released, Yes, people can see Julia in theaters in New York and Los Angeles starting November twelfth, and then it will be rolled out in many minut theaters in cities around the country in the subsequent weeks. Uh So by Thanksgiving, uh it should be available. You want to see it before your Thanksgiving meal. You might want to have a snack just beforehand so you're not too hungry during it or whatever. I think it's a good it's it's potential good Thanksgiving fair.
Now, And what advice would you give a filmmaker who wants to get into the documentary game?
WHOA hard It's a hard question.
I mean, I think you know there's On the one hand, technology is such that people could be experimenting with making short films on their own. That probably doesn't mean that that's something that's going to be headed for distribution. The other thing is to just you know, get there. There are a lot of documentary production companies all around, and getting in on the ground floor in the interning in production assistant mode is kind of always the way to start.
But like learning learning, some technical skills is kind of important. Some shooting and editing skills is great these days, as well as sort of some substantive knowledge. We always try to tell people it's actually good to know, like when people ask, oh, should I major in film or communications
in my undergraduate college? Like maybe, but also it's actually good to learn some things about the world and to understand something about business or science or politics or history, like you know, especially for documentaries, like you need to have some grounding in the real world before you're maybe going out and trying to say something about the world, which at its heart is what may be a documentary is all about.
Now, I'm going to ask you a couple questions, ask all of my guests, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn learn, whether in the film business or in life.
Thank you so much, Calex.
Let me go, I think of one while you got one, but you go ahead, you go back, Okay. I was just gonna say, to not worry too I mean, in some ways it fits in with the messages we were saying earlier to not worry too much about things that go wrong, Like.
When something goes a little wrong, that's all right.
Things have gone wrong in every film that we've made, and you it comes round like the biggest problem is what happens after the thing goes wrong, where everyone is so panicked about the thing that went wrong and trying to convince themselves and the others that it is not their fault. But then a cascade of things begin to go wrong from there. So like things go wrong, forgive yourself and move on.
Yeah, I mean I took the heart are Rbg's advice which she got from her mother, basically that don't waste your time on anger, you know, try to move past it. And yes, it doesn't mean you're not going to be angry. Of course you're going to get angry, you're a human being, but try not to get consumed by anger and just find the way around it because it's a waste of your energy.
Now, in any of your projects, there must have been a day that the whole world came crashing down around you. What was that event and how did you get past it and what did you use to get past it?
Well, I would say my whole world came crashing down around me when I lost a job in a very high profile way in two thousand and five, when I was at CBS News, and you know, it was kind of a wake up for me.
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But opened up doors to a whole new life because I had been an executive, and you know, executive jobs are risky. You know, you're always you're always the person you know that gets blamed when something goes wrong underneath you when you know. That's sort of what happened to me. But in general, I think executive jobs are tough. And I realized that I so loved making stories. Telling stories.
That's what I really love more than I loved being an executive, although you know, I think it was okay at it, but I really loved doing that and so that allowed me to pivot back to what I love doing the most. And Julie, yeah, crash, she's never crashed. Clashing.
The crashing experience, to me, the thing that I associate.
Most with that is like when you know something that.
You thought was gonna happen like doesn't happen, And that actually happens a lot in a world, like where you thought you had to shoot and then you didn't, and the person cancels or you thought you had a booking and someone was going to cooperate with something and they didn't.
And sort of similar to what back to be saying, like in the end you I.
Almost think almost everything that happens, there's a way in the end takeing like.
Oh, it was good that that did. It was great that we didn't actually.
Get that personal because it would have best, it wouldn't have let the next thing.
It was so amazing.
So and last question, uh, Three documentaries that all documentarian should watch.
Oh my god, all right, Hoop Dreams, Yes to my mind. And I saw the re mastering of Hoop Dreams, thinking oh my god, this thing is so long. You know, I think it's like three hours or something, and I was thinking maybe it's too long. It is it's just masterful. It's unbelievable and was so lucky to see it again recently. All right, that's one documentary.
See I think I'm going to say Waltz with Basher. I really recommend that to everyone. It's an animated doc that came out probably around two thousand and eight something like that. That's like just telling a story in a really new way, but that feels really emotionally profound.
So that's one that I think.
Of and one more. Any of any of you, I won't put you on the on the spot for three each.
Okay, there's so many, like what have I like?
For me, it was like searching for Sugarman? Uh? Which was that was a great one? And Walking the is it walking the line or the one with about the type rope guy? Between the twin Hours.
We both loved Raoul Pex I Am not your Negro.
I Am not your Negro.
Really different take on an archival. It's like an ray, it's an archival film. It tells me something about American history.
I really like stories. Stories we tell you know that Sarah poly film, which I thought was just really pushing the boundaries of storytelling in a way that works like sometimes I think the boundaries get pushed in a way that concuse me. I thought that was Wow, what an interesting way to tell a first person film. I don't know, I like that one.
Betsy and Julie so many But thank you guys again so much for being on the show. I truly appreciated it, and I hope everybody goes out and sees Julia And if you haven't seen RBG you have to go see RBG as well. So thank you guys for doing what you're doing, and please continue making amazing documentary. So thank you.
We will thank you.
I want to thank Julian Betsy for coming on the show and dropping their knowledge bombs on the drive today. Thank you so much. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch their new film Julia, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash for twelve. Thank you so much for listening guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.