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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number four zero eight. First Think, Second Dream, Third, Believe, and finally dare.
Walt Disney broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goal of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, market, and
studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading temp pole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered
by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Well, guys, today we are going to be tackling NFTs. Now. We have been talking about NFTs on the show recently, and we've been talking about blockchain and all the new technologies that are going to be hopefully helping independent filmmakers generate
revenue for their film. But I was reached out to by a couple of filmmakers, Anthony Gibson and Zach Loona and their new distribution model using NFTs called Patron Self Distribution or the PSD model, and it was really interesting and I wanted to have them on the show so we could dig into how they're doing it, how they've generated money with it already, and how they're continuing to not only generate money with it for this film, but
they're already planning for their next one as well. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Anthony and Zach. I like to welcome to the show, Anthony Gibson and Zach Lona. How you guys doing do.
An excellent Thanks for having us, Alex oh.
Man, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Man.
You guys reached out to me, and I get reached out to on a daily basis to be on the show, and I get pitches constantly. But when I saw what you guys were doing, I was like, this is interesting. And of course you hit a very sweet spot right now, which is blockchain NFT's new alternative distribution models using technology to empower the filmmaker, because there's been a slight history of filmmakers being taken advantage of by distribution. I'm not
saying many, but to say the just a couple. I mean it's it's not the norm or anything, but but yeah, I want to bring you guys on a show to talk about your amazing new way of distributing through the blockchain through NFTs. But before we even get to that, how did both of them get into the business.
So we actually met each other in Chicago. We were both based in Chicago at the time, and Anthony since moved to La. So we met through our cinematographer Zach Green on a feature length project which was my directorial debut, is called He Who Lives in Hidden Lakes, which is the subject of this project here and then Anthony and I have since worked on that very closely with his production skills.
Cool. And that's how you guys got together and what made you get into the business, Anthony.
Oh yeah, I mean made me get into it. I just love movies.
My grandpa used to chase me around his house wearing wolf mask and.
Brought me into the world via horror movies.
Grandpa, that's an amazing pot.
Yeah, he was big in horror, big in westerns. It's one of my first memories. We're like in his kitchen and he's chasing you around in that mask, and it's interesting to have a first memory of feeling like you're about to be eaten by a monster. And I feel like that's informed the rest of my life, basically maybe into his Zax movie here.
So I think this is uh, this is where the therapy begins, Anthony. So, so you guys came up with this new idea called the patronized self distribution model using NFTs essentially, can you explain to the audience. And we've had other episodes about this, but I just want to kind of carry the baseline. What is an NFT in the simplest, simplest terminology.
Yeah, this is always a tough one, right because it's so new, and it's like I'll give Anthony, I'll give my definition, and then I've thought a lot about about how to position this and essentially how I think of it is, it's a immutable function on a blockchain that represents a asset like a work of art, a film, a house alone, something like this where it's universally verifiable.
So anyone, no matter who you are, where you are, you can come into the blockchain code and you can verify that this token, this NFT represents this whatever it is.
So basically that's more confusing than it was before. So now I'm actually more confused about what an NFT is and I know what an NF is. No, I'm joking, so you you don't quit your day job. No, Basically, to my understanding, you guys can explain to this. An NFT essentially is a digital baseball card, a digital comic book, a digital painting. As a one off or multiple versions
or a limited edition print of something. So there's a fifty fifty limited to fifty of this, or only one of this, and it's just a digital version of Spider Man number one, but there's only maybe one of them, or they could be one hundred of them, or could be a thousand of them, depending on how many you release out there. Is that a fair explanations?
Yeah, you know, I think, like for me, the term in my mind is like digital physical or physical digital. It's like a thing that exists like as itself that you can sell as a singular item the same way that you would have any other merchandise.
You can do that now with an NFT. It's a way to buy and sell means basically.
Yeah, it's a way to facilitate digital ownership of something.
Right.
And then when you were saying blockchain, I mean, I know what blockchain is, so you know the basics of blockchain. If you want to know about the basis of blockchain and what NFTs are based on, I have multiple episodes and I'll link that in the show notes on blockchain explain nations of it and what it all means in our world. Because that's a long conversation, and I think we have already had that conversation, so I just really want to focus on what you guys are doing, but
I'll put that in the show notes, guys. So tell me then, what is a patronized self distribution model or a PSD model?
Yeah, so patronized self distribution is a way to not necessarily actually release your film, but it's a way to verifiably own the film as a.
Work of art.
So a lot of projects that have been experimenting with n fts in the film space have been sort of in an addition or in a like you could, like you were saying earlier, you could buy multiple versions of it like you have like a limited DVD release.
Or something like this.
What patronized self distribution does is that it it mints a scarce token of your film. So you're not thinking of your film as a fungible asset anymore where everyone can go to Netflix or Amazon Prime and see it. Now you're thinking of it as almost like a piece of fine art, like a unique one of one painting.
So then that is then mapped to the token, and then on top of that, you can sell that token as a sort of non fungible piece of art, and then the economic aspect of it that we've designed that comes into it grants the owner of that n FT, which is representing your film in all of its singular artistic glory and all the blood and sweat tears you put into it.
It also gives utility to the owner.
So usually that's going to be mean like an economic benefit like a perk. You can also have like crowdfunding type benefits with it with you know, maybe you can have dinner with the director and producer. But really what's what's what's going to make it the most powerful, both for both you as a filmmaker and your patron, is the sort of economic benefit to owning this token.
Right, So when you're saying so basically, someone let's say I buy your movie for five grand your NFT. According to what I read in your on your on your website, you whoever buys that token would also get fifty percent of all streaming revenue from here on to eternity, essentially im perpetunity. Oh yeah, okay, so then they would come
in so now I own it. I bought it for five thousand dollars, and now after I've purchased it it releases the film because the film would had not been released at that point yet, right.
Yes, exactly, So there are many ways.
Really the sky is the limit with what you can do with NFTs, which is really like the power of it is like this is completely untapped potential and there's use cases for this stuff that no one has even thought of yet.
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
So this is a new one that we thought we would experiment with where we're saying, okay, we're going to mint our feature film as a one of one token, which hasn't been done before to our knowledge, and then we're also going to give an economic benefit to owning the token, and that just exists in perpetuity. So the potential that that unlocks is you can trade the token.
Again.
It's again we're thinking of the film as like a painting or a piece of fine art. Now where you can now there's now a secondary market for that for that film, and along with the economic benefit that which transfers on the resale of the token, the new owner of the film token will then receive that fifty percent cut. So we can get into a little bit more, but it's powerful.
Yeah, you know, it's really like an exploration of incentive and figuring out like what we can do within this new technology to explore new models for small business. I mean, I think of myself as like a small business filmmaker, and this is like, like this new modality is allowing people to enter a space and be new and to define it and to set up new norms, which is
really exciting. And so I think like in this case, it's like, well, we had this feature film that we had produced and we wanted to see what we.
Could do to distribute it ourselves.
And that was like along came this conversation about NFTs, and we just kind of racked our brains around like, well, what does the incentive look like and what could scenario be that would put something in the hands of the person who bought it, but also give us an opportunity to have an entirely new platform. And that's it's awesome about these aggregators. It's like you can self distribute your movie,
you know. And the terms that just happened to be attached to our NFT was we're not going to touch the aggregator until it's purchased and that was the term.
Right, And and the thing is too that well, I'm assuming that the budget of the film was at a point where a five thousand dollars nf T made cents, because if you spent a quarter of a million, half a million dollars on a movie, that doesn't make financial sense to give half of your streaming revenue away. So
it's kind of like, you know, it depends. But let's say, for example, that I have a movie that has a star in it, even a not a not Brad Pitter, you know, or Leonardo DiCaprio, but just a basic you know, a star power that has a fan base. Uh, and then we put it up for auction as opposed to locking it in. Did you you guys locked it in a five thousand right?
Oh? Yeah. We put it to auction.
So we actually got a couple of bids in and our starting auction was one ether, which I think at the time was Yeah. So we we got a couple of bids in there and it went up to two point two five ether, which was the strike price.
So that was really cool to see the bids come in for this thing.
That means that there's definitely like an inkling of a market forming around this stuff.
But yeah, so all right, So then so if we put the bid out and let's say that bid gets up to seventy five hundred thousand dollars, that's a very feasible thing, especially if you're guaranteed fifty percent of streaming revenue coming in, and that's a massive It could be massive depending on the kind of revenue you're creating. Where you're being put on. Is that you know, transactional? Is that AVOD? Is that SVOD? Is that p VOD? What
what you know? You can define all that in your NFT is that is that?
Right? Yeah, that's correct, so with ours And I'm sure everyone is listening to thinking like what are these guys doing giving a fifty percent, Like we haven't gotten into like why we think that's a good deal, right, But yes, you can define any of that within the economics if you're token. It just so happens that we're including like you know, AVOD, t VOD, every anywhere. It's the owner of the ift gets a fifty percent cut of our production.
Companies grow so not like the entire growth, so just what we take home.
So the so then the question is why the hell did you do this and how does this make make any sort of financial sense whatsoever.
Yeah, so it's it's an expense, like Anthony said, you know, it's an experiment in incentives and maybe do you want to take this one?
But I'm assuming it's an experience because I experimented to my first film was five grand, at the second film was three grand. I experimented because my budgets were extremely low. I didn't experiment with fifty or one hundred grand because I'm not rolling that deep just yet. So I'm assuming that the budget justifies this kind of of risk or this kind of experiment. Does that make sense totally?
Yeah?
I mean, and Zach can probably share more about where like the budget's coming from and all that stuff. But for us, yeah, we were very much in a place where, you know, like a one ether deal at a certain point, for the one to one NFT was more interesting to us than maybe recouping any money like all of the funding back within the actual purchase of the NFT, but also to give away fifty percent of the streaming rights.
I think for us, what's most interesting about it is the experimentation and saying, look like we're trying something new.
We happen to have something.
That we're willing to take a risk with, and it's like, hey, like if this means that more people would watch it, Like the idea of like giving up more money was okay because it's actually just about the piece of work itself and also what this could mean for the future, because everything, every project you get at alex is like a case study in like business and economics and all these kinds of things, and it's every project is going
to have a new audience. And it's like someone who's buying soap and someone who's buying toothpaste, but they buy different kinds of things. You have to find another way to sell to that person. And it's like, well, the only way we're going to get to that knowledge is if we take the thing that we already have and put forth and say we're putting all we're going all in on our chips here because.
Something on the other side of this is going to tell us what to do next.
Yeah, and to be specific about you know why we're actually saying this is the utility that we're gonna grant with this NFT is the trying to capitalize on the incentive of either someone buying it out of the gate or on the secondary market of someone who it's It's almost like a like a high renaissance artist patron relationship where the kind of person who has the money to allocate to this kind of you know, merchandise or artwork, they might have an influence in the greater world where
we call it in the crypto space, pumping their bags, you know. So you're like, Okay, I just bought this NFT. I want to show it to everyone. So the more the meme gets out there that this is a movie and you should watch it, the more valuable that the
original NFT becomes. So the idea is the person who buys this either one has an incentive to sell it to someone with a large audience essentially or some influence, or the person who acquires it outright can acquire it for a cheaper price, like say five thousand dollars, which if we're talking about artwork, isn't really that much.
But then they can say, Okay, I have.
An audience of you know, maybe a million people, and maybe I'm like a.
Big YouTube streamer. I could drop five thousand dollars on this film.
You know shaw it to my audience, and then within a couple of months, I've made my initial investment back. And also now that all of my audience has seen this film.
More people love it. More people love it.
The more cultural gravitas that the film has, the more cultural gravitas that the film has, the more value that the original film AFT you can capture on the secondary market. So it's almost like an incentive engine to keep things going and pump the bag.
Essentially.
That's it's I know a lot of people listening to this, so like, what are these two guys, What are these three guys talking about? These guys are insane. But look we're and I told you guys this before we started. I've said this a million times on the show before. Is that we're in the Internet nineteen ninety six. We're still trying to figure out what HTML is. We're still
trying to figure out what JPEG is. We're still trying to get faster than dial up modems to log onto the Internet without stealing an AOL disc from a magazine in a Barnes and Noble. That's how old I am. So you know, that's where we are with NFTs, with blockchain, with all this, we're at a very very basic beginning level. And it's been around for I don't know, since two thousand and eight, when bitcoin showed up and the concept
of blockchain showed up, we were around. It's been around that long, and it's taken that long to get to where we are now, and people are starting to figure things out. And again, I've talked about NFTs at nauseum some of these episodes, so you can go deeper into that, but I'm curious, Okay, So obviously the budget made sense, The benefits make sense for the investor who buys this. Now, something that people might not understand is that if I buy your NFT, I resell it for twenty grand, you
get ten percent of that for perpetuity. If that sells for twenty grand and then a year or two later it sells for forty grand, you just made another four thousand bucks. And it keeps going and going and going and going, and hopefully your next movie is you know, Taxi Driver, you know, circa twenty twenty one, and then you blow up as a filmmaker. Well, the value of that NFT astronomically goes up. And I think you use the example of George Lucas. If George Lucas had a
theorem and NFT, what would the Star Wars NFTV? And I've said, what is this? What would Taxi Driver be? What would be Ambulance? You know Spielberg's first short film as an NFT What would that be worth today if it would have been treated as such and the technology existed when that came out? So is that right? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
Exactly. Yeah, we're so.
I come from more of a fine art background myself. I didn't start in film. I just sort of arrived at film as a consequence of feeling like that that was the best medium for my creative.
Ideas to live.
So I'm coming at it from I'm trying to kind of combine these two worlds where now we have an opportunity, because of this NFT technology to assign cultural value that translates to economic value, to like these priceless film cultural artifacts.
I mean, film is such a big part of you know, our culture, and you know, you can argue that it's sort of got a lot of competition these days, which it does, but that's an opportunity for independent filmmaking at this level to sort of ascend socially and in terms of its social status. So I see feature films going more the way of like the opera or or the theater, where it's kind of more of a niche interest, but it's got a very high it's got a higher class
social implication to it. Which if we're then if then we're assigning fine art value to the films, and that can be traded.
Yeah, the the the value of these.
Tokens could you know, seriously be worth a lot in the future. And also because of the technology, we get a creator royalty on each of those secondary transactions. So if you know, one day this sells for a million dollars on the secondary market, we just pocket one hundred thousand dollars, you you know, just automatically.
Right exactly. And I mean imagine Wizard of Oz or Citizen Kane or you know, if you want to talk about fine art, I mean that's the equivalent you know, or you know, of the earlier Chaplain's first Films or something like that, as NFTs treating film as fine art, which no one's really ever had that opportunity to because film is a film has always been something that you needed to sell a lot of tickets in order to make it financially viable, and that's the entire business model.
This allows that to continue. But this is just another revenue stream for Like I was telling people, I'm like, wait till Marvel or Disney jumps in on this, Like what what is what is the Avengers? What is was the Avenger's NFT worth?
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting, Like the idea of like the concept of reproducibility is dramatically changing right now, Like there's a seismic shift that is happening and understanding what like memes even are and like essentially what we're talking about is like a meme engine, like a cultural like cultural currency being added to financial value of like singular Internet objects. And it's like the film has a one to one identity. Now the film is Films have
always up until now, had this concept of reproducibility. Films are not plays, you know, right, They're not find art piece. This is that convergence of it's both. Now it's simultaneously both at the same time if you're approaching it with this model.
Yeah, and it's it's the same exact concept as you know, the the nancat NFT selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I don't think that, like, I don't understand that in the least, But.
Well, if that's the cultural gravitas of these memes that are being sold, because it's coming from the people who are actually you know, who created the meme off the bat. So not only is it like uh, it's it's the official sort of meme version. And then the more that people share the memes, the more valuable that original NFT becomes.
So it's the exact same concept.
I mean, I know you guys are a bit young for this, but Garbage Pail Kids. Yeah, if you don't know, if you knew what garbage pail Kids were. But I was a young guy when Garbage Pail Kids came out, and I remember the first series of Garbage It's a sticker man, It's a sticker on a piece of cardboard that was not Mickey Mantle, which was not Spider Man. It was a garbage and they were selling for hundreds
of thousands of dollars. Pokemon cards, baseball cards, comic books, these things have values to the audience that they're to the to the tribe that is invested in that. To my wife a number one first appearance amazing fantasy number fifteen. First appearance of Spider Man is a bunch of paper. To me, it's like, oh my god, that's the first appearance of Spider Man. And there's a complete disconnect. Like she was like, how much is that going to cost?
I'm like, I don't know, probably a million dollars, but you know, but to me, that's valuable and so art is whatever value you put on it, period, regardless if you agree with it or not.
Yeah, it's funny to think too, like like that the interest economy of how like that's localized, Like you have a like it's like a imagine a local economy where like value is interspersed amongst itself and has its own definition outside of something that exists over here, and it's like things that exist on the blockchain with NFTs, Like we have this dollar value that we can apply to it.
But it's like it's funny to think, yeah, like you can have one thing over in this corner and that can be worth so much to one person and then you come over here and it's worthless.
But it's validating those interests.
It's saying within those communities, these things matter, and they get to matter even more now.
I mean, all you gotta do is go to comic con and you can figure that out real quick. I mean, I mean, like I took my wife to my first comic con a decade ago, and she was just in like her mouth was on the floor. She's like, I see these price tags on these on these little books. What is what's going on? She's completely no idea. She's like, people are dressed up like these are these are grown adults, and she would stop them, like what do you do for a living? It's like, I'm an attorney what like.
But that's but that is the world, and that's the value that that world puts on on those pieces of art. Where you could walk into a fine art museum or a gallery and I would I would look at something I'm like, I don't know, that doesn't doesn't float my boat. But the person right next to me like, I'll give you one hundred thousand dollars for that because he knows
or she knows what that's valued in their community. So this is just another the beginning, just barely starting ANIBA level of this this market for films, and I think independent filmmakers have the ability to really cash in and create not only revenue streams for themselves, but to provide some cultural cultural art for the society at large, and like like Sundance, like Sundance Winners, south By Southwest Winters, con Winners, you know, these these things that have these
kind of labels like what would what would an NFT from the winner of Best Picture at Sundance be worth today? Because that that director could be worth hundreds of millions of dollars later on because of oh I got there for Imagine if you had sex lizes and videotape the very first nineteen eighty nine, basically the beginning of Sundance, This is when Sundance blew up at the moment that Steven Soderbergh sold their movie at Sundance for a million
dollars or whatever it was back then. Imagine if there was a if you had that NFT, what would that be worth in or Slacker or El Mariachi or or or or Clerks. Imagine if you had what would those be worth? And they would only be worth something to like my generation, your generation people whill understand what that is. The older generation would be like, I don't know what it is that it depends well.
The fact that we're talking about these films in this context and we're realizing like, wow, how much would that be worth? I mean it speaks to I think the viability of of this this model that that we've come up with here too, because you know, we're talking about you know, why why are these you know, pieces of paper worth so much?
Not only is it from the meme and.
The the cultural aspect of it, it's also the scarcity of it too. Write so like there's only so many you know, holographic charge aards, if there's only so many Spider Man first appearances, like the filmmakers will do very well to understand these principles around economics, incentive, and scarcity. So the decision to mint a single n f T was also driven by the scarcity question.
So there's only ever gonna be We're not gonna mint you know.
In addition, after this of you know, maybe other he lives in Hidden Lakes NFTs, the film is only ever going to be minted as a one of one n f T, So that means that that's just automatic.
Built in scarcity. There's only ever gonna be one.
So that's that the dynamic of that makes it much much different than if we said, Okay, we're gonna mint you know, fifty of these or one hundred or a thousand. So what that does is, you know, there's much good work to be done in designing incentives around those types of additions. But what happens then is that you have to manage each one potentially being worthless and also in demand as well. So it's it's you gotta you gotta look at your trade offs with with this kind.
Of stuff too.
Yeah, and I don't I don't know if you guys knew this, but I jumped into the NFT market when I did my first in my first interview, and I put out I happen to be the first film tutorials ever on YouTube, which makes me old as dirt, but I happened to be. I looked, and I looked, and I looked. I'm like, I think I'm the first guy ever to put and I'm I might be the first
movie trailer. I can't. I can't say that for sure, but I beat like Sony Classics, which was like four or five months after I released my movie trailer for my first short film in two thousand and four, so I don't and I can't find any movie trailers prior to that. But I don't want to say that because I'm like, that would be insane if I actually released the first movie trailer on YouTube. But I don't know. I can't say I don't have an NFT for it. We'll be back after a word from our sponsor. And
now back to the show. But I did put NFTs out for the six videos that I put out on that day, tutorials, and I put the first three out just to see what would happen. They sold out within two days. Yeah, because I only sel them for one hundred bucks, but still it was just it was an experiment. They're like, hey, let's see what's going on here. So I put the rest of them out and there's been slowly selling and it's just like, wow, that's cause that's
kind of cool, Like you have the first filmmaking tutorial. Now, who is that important to filmmakers or fans of mine? You know, like something along those lines. You know, again, it's based on the perception of what that is valuable, what's valuable. There's YouTubers like you know whatever, qudie Pi who's got whatever one hundred and fifty millions follow or something like that to his followers. He puts out a
scribble on a piece of paper. There's value attached to that, which you and I would pretty much be like, let me put my drink on that. But it's all about perception and value and what people think the value is. It is a very it is n f T S and your model of n f T S as as ludicrous or genius as a piece of cardboard with a picture of a baseball player. Yeah, and someone attaching value to that. It's just a piece of cardboard with a picture on it.
But because ultimately the goal is to turn Zach into a human Pokemon card.
Nice, Nice, I will accept no less than ten million.
We're working on the holographic shirts right now.
That's genius. So what are some tips that you can put give the audience when they're creating using the PSD model. What are certain things that should be in place for a good successful PSD model.
NFT Yeah, I would say, I would say again scarcity and looking very closely at the kind of utility that you're including with UH, with the NFT because you want to make sure that you're not giving.
Away more than you're willing to lose.
Right, It's like you know that that old rule of investing is, you know, don't don't invest more than than.
You can afford to lose.
So we we went about it and we said, okay, fifty percent of our streaming revenue is an acceptable uh trade off for getting this you know upfront feet whatever it may be. Because we tried to listen for forty three ether and then we uh put the starting bit at twelve ETHER. Now, I happen to think that it's still worth that much, like we were just talking about, but because it's such a new thing, the market isn't willing to dip its toes that far into it yet.
So I would say, uh, make sure that you're that you're the utility is not only beneficial mutually for you and your patron, but also that your patron isn't uh they don't have they try to minimize the work that they have to do in order to capitalize on it.
And also like I was, like I said at the.
Beginning, you know U dinner and you know, uh tickets to exclusive premieres and stuff. Oh, that's cool, you can include that, but keep in mind that if you know you resell it, do you want to offer that to the new owners of that?
How often do you want to you know, keep that going.
Uh, it's stuff like that is is less quantifiably valuable to an investor or our collector. And I also want to note that when I say investor in this context, much different from your investor that's going.
To give you your budget to do the film.
So it's an art investor, it's an art investor. It's different.
Yeah, it's it's much different.
So you don't you don't owe them any money unless you want to. Like we're we're owing our investor our patron money. That's why I call it a patron and not not an investor. But there's also uh, the next project we're going to be doing is kind of exploring how we can incorporate this model and do like a hybrid ps.
D crowdfunding model.
Because we we came into this already having the movie done, so it had never been released before. We had just finit it in uh you know, the the tail end months of twenty twenty, so we had already had the budget and we you know did it and you know that's all done. So we were in a position where we could say, okay, we don't have to pay anyone back now because we were self financed. But now, how do we use this stuff to viably crowdfund?
Yeah?
Well, what does it look like to explore the nooks and crannies of incentive in development and how you know, you know, Alex you were talking earlier, like you know, if you have a star attached, you know, that's that's often how distribution deals are made. You know, it said, oh I was able to attach x y Z actor, which you know, these kinds of audiences like this actor.
Here's here's the way of suring up your investment because you know, you've you've done the calculus and you're like, this will you know the likelihood of this exporting value is higher because of this thing, And it's like, well, what does that look like in today's a with so many different corners of value in the Internet, Because what does it look like when someone who does you know, video tutorial podcasts and also someone who does fashion and
makeup videos, someone else who does video game streaming, and you say, hey, I'm going to put you all in the same movie, and what does that look like now when now you're tapping value from all of these different areas to say that yes, And also we're incorporating the NFT universe and instead of incentivizing with you know, like various crowdfunding perks and saying you get a T shirt and those kinds of things, no, you have an NF. Like what if there was a way to create an
NFT that could have value on the secondary market. And so it's all about finding all of those different areas of incentive. And for anyone that's looking to make projects considering this as a model, you know it's there.
There are so many ways.
It's ultimately so creative right now. You can do so many different things, and right now we're just getting nitty gritty for our next project about what that could look like.
Right And you can, i mean, in a crowdfunding say you can use, for example, someone you can crowdfund an NFT and then just give them a percentage of based on what they give a percentage of the final growth or the final this or the final that's some sort of incentive in that way. So it's almost like more of an investment than a gift of a crowdfunding, So it's now you're you're actually sourcing it out, and it's all could be done on the on the blockchain, which
would be ideal. And I hope one day we get to the place where all of distribution is done on the blockchain and all payments are done on the blockchain, and everything's done with smart contracts, and and we don't have to deal with this BS anymore. That you know, distributors do this, or distributors do that, or excuse me, let me rephrase predatory distributors do this, distributors do that, because not all distributors are bad by by any stretch.
There are a lot of great ones out there, but we focused on the predators.
Exactly.
Well, let's let's talk a little bit about how distribution actually like functionally comes into this, right, So like for anyone who's still kind of like skeptical a little bit about it about this model we've done, I mean, we sold it. So we we made you know, five thousand dollars off of this, which is comparable to a minimum guarantee might get it from a distributor if.
You're lucky, If you're lucky, if you're.
Lucky exactly if you're lucky, and well, now you get the secondary you know, revenue stream from secondary sales too.
But you know, think of it like that.
You know, it's like, we can't because the other thing that's happening with this is that we're retaining all the rights to our film.
We're not giving away any rights whatsoever.
With this because the revenue stream and the NFT itself are reason enough obviously for someone to collect it. So now we could say, Okay, now we're going to go to a distributor and collect a minimum guarantee from them.
So that's an you know, another.
Possible avenue for so yeah, especially like you were saying earlier, Alex, this is like another revenue stream for the film that will also work to hopefully automate some of the marketing lift that you have to do by virtue of it being this transferable meme capture units so to speak.
Right, and if you had a let's say you did one thousand units. Let's say I'm just throwing that out there, a thousand units, and that those thousand units are worth ten to fifteen percent of your revenue. Jumping in, I'm just going off the top here, so you put away fifteen percent of all revenue, it's going to go to this one hundred units that you're going to sell on
crowd sourcing, a crowdfunding excuse me. And then all of a sudden, all those people who buy those hundred people they're going to be incentivized to market that live in hell out of this and get this out in the world. And if you did that with a thousand and broke up that fifteen percent accordingly that way, then you even have more. So it all depends on what you're doing. And then you could also put a price tag on all of that just to get in the game. There's
so many different routes you can go on. This is it is essentially the wild wild West right now.
It is.
It's the Internet circa ninety six. Man, it is like the wild wild West.
You can take a look and see just like what's happening on the internet. How are people communicating on the internet? How are people pointing a camera at themselves? How are people quote unquote influencing? And then like how can and taking a look at that and being like, hmm, there is some serious untapped potential through this communication mechanism for getting new ideas, getting new films out into the world and seen by people. And it's just about connecting the dots.
It's just saying you come over here, you come over here, let's do this thing. It's you know, in some ways uses the same philosophy as like if you're a YouTuber.
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And you want to like go on someone else's show to get to get some other audience to come see your thing, and you cross pollinate.
I mean that's essentially it's taking that and it's scaling it up and using the blockchain in order to do that.
And it's all like Zach and I love to just like, you know, one of our favorite things about this whole thing is that it's just it's all memes.
Memes.
Me everything is a meme, and like that is like pretty like you know, core to our philosophy in all of this. It's like, what can we do with memes? What can we do to make people think about memes? And that's a cornerstone of the mythos that we're trying to create with a bigger world that we're actually working on.
Now you guys also created a physical version of the NFT to send to the person who purchased it, which I think is awesome. How do you How did you create it? Because it looked awesome from the pictures I saw what was the cost? If you don't mind me asking, look at that. That's a customized situation. So what was that situation done? I was done.
So that was a nightmare to put together.
But I'll just be front up front and get this so our our collector wishes to remain anonymous for now, but they told me, like, hang on to it. I'll redeem it when I feel like it. So I still have it, like it hasn't left my house yet, which I'm fine with because you know, I appreciate that, like it's it's it's gorgeous and we're pretty proud of it.
No, it looks stunning. I was like, that's gorgeous. Like that looks like a special, special, special freaking criterion, you know, to the degree kind of one. On one hand, drum, I mean, it's beautiful.
Okay, you're making us blush.
Yeah it is.
It's nice. Appreciate that, Yeah, very proud of it.
But in terms of the logistics, yeah, it was so not many you know, packaging manufacturers take one off orders, and the ones that do are are pretty pretty pricey. And see, here's the thing too, is that we didn't have to do that. Obviously our patron doesn't even really
want it right now, which is some thing. It's a phenomenon that's happening in the crypto art collectible space with NFTs, where it's like, you know, there are artists who offer, you know, the physical painting with the NFT, and collectors will say, I don't want any physicals, I just want the I just want the JPEG and my wall and that's totally cool. So we went into a kind of half expecting that. But for me, you know, like you know I mentioned earlier, I come from a fine arts background.
I like having like a physical artifact for the film that I've created.
But you know, obviously I'll put it this way.
It was a lot of money, probably more than I would recommend for someone else who's trying to do this, But it is a very cool thing. And when it's in the museum, you know, in twenty thirty forty years, that's a nice little museum, you know, I'm just kidding.
And when everyone understands my genius by then. I mean, you know, hopefully I won't be Van Go when I'm dead and they'll go, oh, Zach, no, I get it. I guess yeah, no, No, I'm sorry. I just saw I saw a clip from I don't even watch Doctor Who, but I saw a clip where they brought back Van Go and they brought him into the museum.
Oh I've seen that.
Oh my god, that's so like you just start tearing up like an artist, just like, oh my god, it was so beautif anyway, sorry geeked out for a second. Guy, Sorry, I apologize that. So so did you, but I am I wrong. Did you not create any other NFT things for like, you know, stills of the movie or other things, or did.
You you know you're getting into sort of the next chapter for us, and you know we're working on a big part of I mean, I can let Zach take over sort of talking about like the content of the movie itself, because I think it's specific to like, it's kind of amazing what work ended up working at, what we ended up having in our lap at a time when Crypto was around, it's kind of came to the mainstream and our film is about a cryptid, like a
like a Bigfoot esque Sasquatchean figure Cryptid. Cryptid meets Crypto, and it was just like this perfect marriage of like what can we do with that?
And I feel like I let Zach kind of take over from there.
Yeah, I mean there's so many places to go from that. You know. It's like so one of the ideas we have is you know, uh build, So.
Essentially what we're trying to get at now the phase that the project is in is we are taking this feature film that we have and we're trying to use these community incentives to build an audience around the IP itself.
So you know, we we can get into like the specifics of the plan, but we're we're going to be minting more NFTs around the the fiction and the lore of this of this you know, essentially a monster movie mocumentary IP, so you know, like minting specific clips from you know, the film, like, oh, here's a found footage. So Crypti is called the Hidden Man. It's a proprietary monster that we came up with. You know, here's a a an eight millimeter still or a film clip that we that we used.
Yeah, we actually used an eight milimeter.
Camera for some of it, you know, a nice little badge of honor there. But yeah, like minting stuff like that and then using that to sort of do you know, add more value into the IP through those specific items of merchandise where it's like at a lower level, you know, you're never get you you're only one person can ever have the actual film NFT.
But you can own pieces of the film.
You can own merchandise of the film that also give you like community benefit within the community that we're trying to build.
So I'm gonna pitch you guys something for an NFT. Please bear with me. This is a real thing. This is a real thing. This is not making this up. But there is such a thing called bigfoot erotica. Now wait for it, wait for it, wait for it. My friend told me about this, and I'm like, oh my god, this is genius. Anyone listening right now, when you're done, listen to this episode, type at google bigfoot erotica and just just lose your mind at what you'll you'll find out.
There's no, it's not just like pictures. It's like stories, like books, novels, ebooks about It's is amazing. I can't believe you guys haven't known about this. But the best, but the best part was I had a friend of mine who's like, man, my brother's really giving me a hard time. I'm like, this is what you do. Go
to his house and he's married. He goes go to his house and go on his computer and just start doing a lot of Google search for Bigfoot erotica and leave it on this leave it on his on his stack, and let his wife find it. It's exactly what he exactly what happened. And he left. He left, and then his wife, like my brother calls him, like, dude, did you were you were you searching Bigfoot of ronica on my computer? My wife thinks I'm doing I'm like, I
have no idea what you're talking about. You're sick and disgusting. And he hangs up.
Wow.
So that's savage. That is savage. But that's that's their relationship. I don't get involved.
But he is a tool to ruin a marriage.
Yeah, but you know, but just or or just or just uh, you know, hidden man erotica. I'm just throwing it out there, just throwing it out.
I can add that to the Technically, the proprietary world of the IP why not, Well, Zach is speechlessly.
If anyone listening, everyone's listening. I see Snack's face. It's just like, it's all right now. He can't even speak.
Like, yes, obviously, obviously this is the thing that should happen. Oh, it's funny.
Actually, in the early days of the film, when I was exploring ideas, I was.
Like, what if we had a romantic encounter there?
This is a whole whole market that you guys are not serving, sir, There's a whole market you could be just selling this stuff too.
I'm just we're not saying there isn't a romantic encounter.
There might be. There might be, there might be.
Here's the thing.
Let's get into me and Anthony, have you know, we want to We've got a very specific idea on how we can take this even further. So a new concept, a new blockchain concept that people maybe are not as familiar with, is is a dow a d A.
Have you heard of this?
No, I haven't.
Decentralized autonomous organization.
Oh I've heard of decentralized for banks, but not for organization. Okay, so talk to me about that.
So there's been DeFi, which is decentralized finance yep, and that's very cool. The next step after DeFi, after NFTs is downs, so decentralized autonomous organizations. And these are essentially corporate structures or business structures where it's not really run by anyone, there's not really a corporate hierarchy, and the governance of the organization is equally spread out among all
of its members. So essentially anyone can come in by the governance token, the you know, the currency that's native to the Dow organization and start working on projects and getting paid for it.
So we're still doing a lot of research on how to do.
It's imagine a decentralized production company where every all the fans get to vote on what the next project is.
That's what we're working on.
And they're paying and they and they pay for and they'll pay for it by paying into they can help finance it.
It creates a liquidity pool essentially, yeah.
Yeah, and they get rewarded for financing the production. And also what's going to happen is we're going we're creating uh now, this is this is very early stages here, but we're really excited about it. The core component of how this dow is going to work is essentially it's going to manage the Hidden Lakes IP.
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So, uh, you know, the the the our film is just the first installment of this IP. We're gonna be making sequels and stuff. And part of how we're going to get that done is that we're gonna fractionalize and decentralize uh licensing.
To the IP itself.
So we're gonna say, Okay, we're gonna mint a set of ten thousand tokens. You buy a token, you can send it back to the Ethereum contract and uh so it's you know, not in our control, it's in you know, the contract itself. And for as long as that's in the contract, as long as you're you know, in this bank, uh, you get in return a license to use the IP however you want. Thanks Steff for man pornography.
Yeah, I mean the thing.
The thing is like erotic assert erotic U. There is a difference. Let's clarify that right now between bigfoot porn and big you can't make porn correct, there's a difference there's a difference, sir.
It's it's it's.
We're kind of people are gonna think like that. I've like, look enjoint big. I'm the one that started this, all right. I know right now, I know somebody right now listening to this is like curving off the road laughing at like the big Oh Jesus, no, this all sounds great. Look, this is the thing where we're so early on in this whole this whole experiment of NFTs and blockchain everything. I've said this before on the show. I'll say it again.
Blockchains is as or more important than the Internet is to human civilization and people, people who don't understand that statement, you will just the same way as people in nine ninety six said the Internet's going to change everything. Just like that guy who shot that rocket up into space the other day that looked like something that I won't say on it looked like Bigfoot of Rotica. His rocket
looked like Bigfoot of Rotica. That guy said, Hey, I'm going to sell books on the Internet, and now he sells everything that That's the same thing that blockchain is going to do. We're just not there yet, and we will get there. And it's getting there. It's growing fast and there's issues. And I think you said it in your article as well, Zach about you know, theorum will become cheaper, it will become a greener. It's just a lot of electricity that runs through to get all this stuff.
So it's gonna get It's it's just like dial up man in ninety six, ninety five, ninety four. It's like dial up. It's like, how can anyone can even think or conceive that I could buy something on the internet? Remember that, how old are you? Guys are younger that much younger than me. So I remember the time was like people were like, I'm not putting my credit card online. Like that was people were like, I'm not putting my credit card online that they're going to steal my identity.
That was the mentality back then. That's where we are right now with blockchain. I think in five or ten years, blockchain will be at a completely different place. Crypto I think will be probably at a completely different place. And what you guys are talking about and defy and and now and all this these kind of concepts I think are really going to help not only the world, but in our little microcosm of independent film. It's giving a lot of power back to us.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say, is that like this, like the paradigm shift that's happening that mirrors the Internet revolution.
That's the main people who are.
Going to benefit from our independent creators. So what this technology does is it cut outs the middleman. It cut outs the big centralized institutions that tell you yes or no. It's really going to power the empower the individual creators who want to you know, contribute things to their favorite stuff and make money in the process.
And you and you, so you give away fifty percent of all streaming rights. But of right now, you still have to do the accounting. In other words, the money has to come into an account and then you've got to convert that into ethereum or whatever, you know, whatever stable coin or whatever you're going to use to pay that person exactly.
So that that goes to show how early we are where you know, in five years that will all be able to be able to get done on chain. Right now, there's not really a solution for that, so we you know, for however long that would take, and we'll just say, okay, we're just going to do the accounting ourselves.
You know that. Being said, you know that it may be that.
Not only is the smart contract upbradable and that we can automate that, you know, from the token on chain, or we could we could find a crypto powered streaming platform which is also a new territory where the film will be online and you can watch it for free and also maybe even get paid for watching it. And it also probably give us a better rate streaming wise than you know, Amazon Prime for Vimeo on demands.
You mean a penny for an hour? Is that not fair? I think that's more than fair. I don't understand. I mean, didn't you hear that that? Jeff Bezos thanks us all for having him go up into space.
Yeah, built on the backs of independent filmmakers.
Oh, don't even get me started. Happen we made it was all us. We started off at fifteen cents. Now he's down in one sense. What happened with those fourteen cents? Boom into Space? Big Foot e rotica. Anyway, So another big player jumped on the scene in the NFT world, which is Kenn Smith, and he came on with his film kil Roy was here, but he did the opposite of what you guys did He's literally selling or giving his distribution rights away to this film. What do you
think of that? And how do you think that model is gonna work? Did he even sell it yet? I don't even know if he sold it yet.
I don't think it's online.
So we've been we That was actually his announcement of That was actually the reason why we press the launch button on this project, because we've been building it since like March. We're like, oh no, we gotta we gotta beat up to the punch. But uh yeah, I don't think it's online. But again it's like it's it's very similar to what we're doing, but there's also some key
differences that kind of make it. I I prefer to not take that approach simply because, like I was saying earlier, you don't want to make your patron work too much to exercise their their utility that you give them. So with Kevin Smith's n FT, which also is being minted on the Phantasma chain, which is different from Ethereum, and we can maybe get into you know what chain you should actually mint on, but regardless of that.
That's very technical knowledge.
Essentially, the the the best person who's gonna want to buy the Kevin Smith n FT is a distributor, So like, if you come come at it from our perspective where we're our target market for this, n FT is a private individual collector.
They're not gonna know how to how the.
Hell to distribute this thing, right, So, uh, if you're giving them the entirety of your distribution rights, that's cool. Just know that your market is much more different and you're probably it's it's it's like, if you're selling to a distributor and you're looking to give the distributor your rights with the n FT, you probably don't even need an n FT. Like that's pretty much just the exact same thing as a deal you would strike.
And I think he's just I think he's just trying to get some hype over it, and that's all it was, because he's actually selling, like you know, James Simon, Bob NFTs and he's making a mint with them. Uh, you know all those like cool little mean stuff like that. He's it's not stupid that sense. He's definitely. I mean, he was one of the first podcasters. He was he jumped on the podwagon years ago before it was cool uh, and and everybody had a podcast. Uh. And people tell me,
I'm like, oh, you jumped in early. My dude, I jumped in six years ago, like Kevin Smith jumped in like a decade or more ago. Like it's it was insane. Respect Joe Rogan frick Man, he's jumped like oh nine, you like couldn't get that damn thing to stream. I saw the first in the first podcast, it was just like trying to make it work, and it was like like three twenty by you know, by two forty videos, Like it was horrible. Uh, but you just made a
hundred million bucks and that's not bad. Did Okay, it's good, good ROI.
So I think, like you know, anyone that's doing anything in the NFT space is just like adding to the value of everyone else that's trying to work on it apps. Like we're all just trying to like I said, like for us, it's an experiment, Like we're curious about other people's case studies.
We want to see what they're doing.
We want to see like what models of incentive they're developing and kind of like you know, works some magic. I mean, we're all really excited about the new technology. We need people to know about it. This is still super inaccessible to like an audience, Like they don't most people don't understand.
This stuff, and so it's just like we need more people to be interested.
I mean I had to I had to educate. I took it took me like half a day to figure out how to mint something. Like the technology so clunky. It's just so clunky to get stuff done. Now, I'm like, my god, isn't someone figured this out to make this a little easier, Like it doesn't seem that difficult. But it was like, and I use Mintable because it was the easiest. Open Sea was like too expensive. They want to gas freeze up front, Mintable to gas freeze on
the on the end. Now we're like talking in languages that nobody else understands. But but yeah, but it was it just and even then Mintable was still like a pain in the butt to figure out. It's just it's still so early, man, We're still so so early. Now. One thing I want to ask you is we're talking about all these NFTs and independent film and all that stuff. Not every project is going to be a good candidate
for an NFT. So what make how do you how does a filmmaker know if their project makes sense for this world?
You know, this is an awesome question, and I think Zach and I probably talk about this every day, and I think what makes particularly like understand like internet communities.
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Like if and who you're from a development perspective, who are the people who are going to be investing in your project to actually like make it happen so you can go into production and those kinds of things. Who is your like financing audience essentially, and like our film specifically is targeted towards like village voice myth making and where does that happen.
Happens on the Internet.
We're doing that every single day, and so thematically our project is designed to be talked about on the Internet, and it's like self conscious of that, and we think that that in itself is interesting to people who are on the Internet creating and sharing memes and using that as a form of communication.
And so specifically for this world that we're building out, which is.
Like like like a modern mythos, basically that's using the Internet as like as like a community standpoint, people who are moving money on the Internet, people who are in crypto communities and want to see content that is more directly related to them and their user experience. Those are the people that we think right now, because it's the initial audience in this world that are going to be interested in funding projects and seeing things that reflect back like interesting elements to them.
Yeah, I would say, if you're trying to build a community like that and you're trying to build an audience into the IP and it's like the shared experience, this is definitely NFTs are definitely the route for you, and I think you know, to for on a more logistical point, this is definitely geared to, like like the PSD model itself.
It's assuming that you already have you know, you already have a completed film first of all, and that film is probably going to be low budget, like we were talking about earlier, it's probably going to be the director driven.
To you know, take the fine art sort of box and you.
Know, like we were talking about before, you know, maybe if you have like a decent name talent, maybe you don't need.
You know, the boost that this as D model would attempt to give you.
But at the same time, maybe that's an incentive to grab an even more a higher price at the auction. Right, So like, oh, Brad Pitt is in this one of one NFT movie. I'm an art collector. I have a Jackson Pollock and Mark Rothko in my collection. I can throw a million dollars at the new Brad Pitt movie NFT.
That'll be fifty million dollars in fifty years.
So what would what would a Kubrick be worth? What would be what would what would Kurosawa would be worth? And now we have Nolan, Fincher, Spielberg, Scorsese, you know what, what's the Godfather worth?
Like?
It's just I think once mainstream Hollywood and some of these directors start figuring these things out, they're gonna go, oh wait a minute, and we can make not only can we make some money with this, but we can actually insert ourselves into the conversation culturally just and and uh, who was who was the filmmaker?
God?
I forgot, I lost my train of thought. But but yeah, it's it's it's worth that. And I think once filmmakers are able to these higher end filmmakers start doing things like that, you know what would a Fincher n f TV worth man, Yeah, what did a Nolan fin What would a Nolan you know, what would tenant be worth? You know?
Yeah, And that line of thinking again is very different from saying, Okay, we're gonna you know, we're gonna have n FT tickets where you know, that might still be worth something that's more like a like a collectible, you know, Pokemon card or like a Beatles seeket from like you know, nineteen sixty nine or something like that. So it's it's like almost like two different asset classes. You have the scarce sort of fine art NFTs, and you also have the fungible quote unquote like merchandise.
At FT, collectible collectibles exact.
Yep. So there are two different asset classes.
And when we're thinking about what is a David Fincher worth or was it Chris owerworth?
Like that to me, is the.
Fine art at least like chars are for sure?
Yeah?
Yeah, and obviously bigfoot erotica.
So Pokemon cards a game, guys.
So I'm gonna ask a few questions to ask on my guest guys, what advice would you get filmmakers trying to break into the business today?
You take that one the advice I would give you is focus on what's in front of you and figure out how to like build a team around the things that you're stoked about, and like don't be afraid to just like.
Not sorry, I'm blanking on this. Actually I terribly giving advice.
What I'll say about this is that when I was in college, there were classes that were offered to me, and I felt like that wasn't meeting the needs of what I wanted to get out of my education. So I figured out that I actually had the agency to create my own class and get credit for it and bring people on and make the movies that I wanted to make. And I didn't have to wait for anyone to tell to give me a curriculum to do that.
So get creative. There's tons of opportunities out there. You don't have to just follow what's given to you.
What is the.
No go ahead that Anthony anthlete perfect answer for that.
What is the lesson that took you, guys the longest to learn, whether in the film industry or in life.
Tax credit financing, touche, sir, touche, touche.
That's a that's a very fine, fine, fine lesson to learn tax credit financing. Everyone, tax credit financing. First time in almost five hundred episodes, someone said, tax credit financing is.
Something about how valuable it is, and uh, it's actually big on that amazing tax credit.
And three of your favorite films of all time?
Oh uh, mine are weird.
I like two thousand and one, I like Napoleon Dynamite. And the third one is a toss up between mystery Men and bad Lands.
Oh that's a hell of a combination of films there. There, that's I'm trying to put connecting dots. I'm like, I connected to and I took connected to mystery Men. Wow, mystery Men, first time on the show mystery Men. That's I love. I love mystery Men. What a cast, What an insane cast.
They had the production design like the writing smash mouth, smash mouth, smash mouth man man.
Yeah, so that's that's mine.
How about how about you, Anthony?
I'll say Princess Mononoke, yes, little Miss Sunshine, classic Indie, and I will just say Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone probably if honest?
Sure, Hey yeah, nice.
Is the magic of childhood?
Yes, and it's and it's a nice Christmas movie. It's like every time it's I always watched it during Christmas, That's when they came out. So I always associate Harry Potter movies with Christmas as well. So and where can people find out about your NFTs, about your films, about your projects and so on.
Yeah, so you can learn about the film and the n f T at who is.
The Hiddenman dot com.
Uh, that's where all of our links are, and also follow Hidden Ones Dow DAO on Twitter.
Uh.
You can join our discord too to get the drop on that cool dow project that we're doing, which is the next step of this.
Oh and also the film is live on.
Vimeo on demand too, so you can search for He Who Lives in Hitt Lakes on Vimeo and demand and it'll be on Prime video as well soon.
And you're and you're using film hub as well, right.
Yeah, we are using film help discover them through indie film hustles, So thank you to that.
Yeah. Yeah, there are some good they're doing some good work over there. Trying trying, everyone's trying. Anyone's trying to cut every Like I said, everyone's trying to break you know, you know, break that nut. No, one can crack it. No one's cracked the nut yet on on on the Perfect Model, I think it's always shifting and moving and and but this is awesome, man. I thank you guys
so much for coming on the show. I'm excited anytime I hear in new ways the filmmakers make money with their films, especially when it comes to the blockchain, I'm all about it. So thank you guys so much for coming on the show.
Man. Yeah, thanks for having us. Alex, Yeah, thank you so much.
I want to thank Anthony and Zach for coming on the show and dropping their NFT knowledge bombs on the drive today. Thank you so much.
Guys.
If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes. I had Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv forward slash for zero eight. Thank you so much for listening, guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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