BPS 396: How to Become an Indy Mogul with Ted Sim

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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three ninety six. We must learn to live together as brothers or paris together as fools. Martin Luther King broadcasting from a dark, windowless.

Room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.

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I don't know about legendary.

Brother. Yo, holding up.

Man, it was good man, doing good, hanging out, working on a bunch of stuff.

Listen to that NIFILM podcast. Man, here we go.

Yeah, baby, I mean, this is like I was saying earlier. Man, I think it's a long time coming. Man, it's it's uh. You know, I've been I've been a fan of yours for a while, been a fan of what you've been doing with Aperture and now with Indie Mogul and all the service that you're doing for the film community in general.

Man.

Because we're such a small group, there's not a lot of us doing what we do as far as trying to help the community and trying to be of service and all that stuff. And we all it's so funny if we don't know each other personally we know somebody who knows each other, and it's kind of like it kind of goes that way. So it's it's very it's but I've been wanting to get you on the show. I had Griffin on the show a while ago, which was so much fun, and it's so much.

Fun, and he's seriously just that. You think he's a nice guy when you watch the videos and then you meet him or talk to him in person or online, and then you're like, oh my gosh, he's like ten times nicer than I ever thought he could.

Is he like is he like Canadian nice?

That's a really good question. I don't know how to answer that, but I will say, absurdly nice. So however you define.

You, because Isaac Canadian nice. Canadian nice is like so nice. It's like I still remember the first time I went to Getada and first time ever went there, and everyone was so nice. I swear I was like in a horror movie, like they're gonna kill me. This is way too nice. I don't understand why.

Well, you're also coming from Los Angeles too, a film of Los Angeles. I mean, you could not ask.

For a more like culture, shock horribly.

Mean, spirited people, the community to come from.

What do you mean, sir, La? What how dare you? Sir?

Los Angeles is where all the friendly people are.

But they are, but La is the nicest. They give you the nice FEUs, the nicest FEUs ever. Like I've never it's an art form here. They'll never You'll never hear the word no ever ever. It's just we're passing. Like you go to New York, Dude, your stuff sucks and I'm not going to do it. That's like what you hear in New York.

I just I just don't I know it's true.

I just don't want to admit that it's true because I hope that it'll change some days. From Baltimore originally, by the way, so I'm used to the same thing. You get on the bus and the bus drivers, you know, drop an F bomb in there and be like are you fucking coming on the bus and you leaving the bus. I'm like, let know you.

Let's move let's move it along kind of thing with the bus.

All right.

So before we get started, man, how did you get into the film business in the first place?

That is a great question. Uh, yes, I grew up in Baltimore. It's basically in Baltimore. If you tell people you want to make movies or working, well, it's basically like saying you want to be an astronaut. It's like, honestly, I think saying you want to be an astronaut is actually a more reasonable job because there's a GUTA Space Center and all this stuff out there, Like there's actual MASSA employees walking around, So it's not really the most

It must be easy, it must be easy. I've seen the behind the scenes. It shouldn't be that different, of course.

Yeah, I mean everyone's just having fun. You're eating snacks, so there's there's trailers.

There's sushi, there's lobster tail. I mean, yeah, so you.

Fall for that, and you know, you get into it. You start. I'd make movies and sounds of kids. It's like middle school. I was like trying to you know, play cameras and stuff like that. In high school, I actually got a job as a projectionist assistant where I was Actually my grades were terrible in high school, but I would go to the local theater every day and I'd work as the assistant over there, and eventually I

So you mean reality, you're talking about reality?

I'm just reality TV.

No No, no, that's that's life. You mean life hitting you, smacking you upside the head and going no, no, no, you're not as cool as you think you are. Yes, we all.

It's the worst feeling in the world.

If there's anyone listening to this that it feels like they're in that place in their life. I'm not going to say that it doesn't get worse than that, but I'm going to say that that is a low point, and it's normal to being a low point there.

That's okay, Yeah, it isn't It is a normal place out of I mean out of film school.

I was.

I started working at Universal Studios Florida doing PA work.

Oh, I was.

In PA work. I was a translator for Global Guts, the Nickelodeon show. And then I just realized a while I was like, this sucks. This is not what theyre I was told that I was gonna make one hundred million dollar movies. This is this is you know, my last name should be Spielberg.

I don't understand to me who lies around.

Oh, I can tell you who lied to you. The one that you're paying that bill to every month to pay back your student loan, that's the one that's the one who lied to you.

You're driving a hot take there, like in terms of the you know, obviously the film school versus no film school debate. It's a hot topic, right.

Yes, I gotta be honesome when I when I.

First got out, and for probably ten years afterwards, I thought for sure no film school, right, because I was like the golden boy in film school too, Like I graduated like top my class, I like.

A director's all this stuff, and it came out in just.

Nothing right, crickets. But I think it takes a certain amount of time to see the people around you grow up and become because I think when you first graduate, you look around and you look at your friends and you're like, man, I'm an idiot, and all of these people that I graduated with our idiots, Like what network are they talking about here? And what you don't realize is that it's not that it's idiots, and it's not

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Or a certain person out there that you know can't make that jump or doesn't have that self drive, I don't think it's a bad move anymore. I've flipped on that, but.

Argua but arguably speaking though, if you don't have the drive to go to to self educate yourself, do you think you're going to have the drive to make it in this business?

That's a really good question. That's a really good film.

I mean, if you're like I don't want to like have to do work to learn, I need someone to tell me what to do, because that's the way the film business is. Yeah, that's there's going to be someone holding your hand through this entire product, especially indie film.

Oh absolutely, yeah, Ani film is a nightmare, right and like again, I'm speaking to people mostly that are in the States, right, because you know, you got publicly funded arts in like Germany, sure and like a lot of places. Sure, that's a different thing, and there's there's downsides to that, and there's outsides to that. But if you're doing indie film in the States or any place that doesn't have publicly funded arts, man, it is.

It ain't easy.

It ain't easy in this world, all right. So you get out, you realize that the world sucks and they lied to you, and now you're in this dark, depressive place. Where do you go from there? Sir?

Okay, So I get lucky. Actually, so I start. I just I just start owner operating. I just I got a camera. I start shooting things. I shoot everything. I shoot bad weddings, I see horrible commercials for the people down the street. I start taking on just little gigs here and there. I find my way eventually onto a set until I started doing a kind of a spiff in terms of working in reality documentary. And this is

I got in because originally from.

Baltimore in Silver Spring Over in Maryland. Discovery channels out there. So I had a couple of friends that were from the Discovery Channel people, and I met some people on set and I just started working as the like go to guy for the Shark Week people. And I was the guy that was no as And really this is because I was just some kid out of film school.

I was known as the guy that could do it for really cheap.

It would be okay, not that great, but I could get it done quickly and for a budget that everyone else would be like, hell no, we're not doing that.

Eventually, the guys that I started working.

For were the company that would get contracted down to do Sharp Week, and they'd get contracted to do these kind of like big discovery gigs here and there. But you know, just like any freelancer, entrepreneur, company owner knows, you get reached out to from time to time with low ball gigs, right, And they used to just say no to those gigs and they would just start throwing them to me. And I was the guy that was like, oh, you'll pay me the holy camera, Hell yeah, I just

Oh hey, it paid, It paid something, it.

Paid, and you know what I was.

I was really lucky because I think I got paid to direct really early on, which is something that I think a lot of people, Oh that's awesome.

I mean, yeah, look, I would have killed to direct. I was. I was editing. So basically when you were doing a camera I was doing in posts. So that's why my IMDb is like one hundred credit long. And that's not even including the yeah, just post and not even including commercials, music videos and all this other crap that I did. And I did anything for any if it walked in the door, I did it.

Were you an editor or were you like an editing assistant on pioscoping for a long time and it was like, man.

No, I did editing.

I did.

I was an assistant for like a minute. And then I went off and started freelance editing commercials and music videos and things like that. Then slowly I got into feature editing. Then after that I got into color grading.

Dude, dude, I think post is the smartest way to Again, and maybe the grass is always greener, but I actually legitimately believed editing if you want to if you want to write or direct or any of that stuff, like right, let me write. Most people want to write and direct. Right, if you want to do either of those things, I really think post is the way to enter because that's when you assembly. This is going to sound like belittling

Oh I would agree with thee hundred percent. It helps me. So when I started directing commercials and directing TV and all that kind of stuff, it I could move so much quicker than anybody else. I mean I was doing and ten and twenty setups a day, just flying because I just knew what I needed. I didn't have to wait to like, oh, we're just going to take that whole shot. I'm like, no, no, stop right there, I'm going to cut there. Let's move on here. Yeah, And

It's I don't care even if it was slower, even if it was harder. Just learning how to assemble something, yes, and just know and be that close to the finished product. I think it's priceless, man, because everything else is just so vague and ephemeral, and you don't know what's important until you see it in the edit.

Absolutely so then, so I wanted to ask you, man. You obviously you know, the first time I, you know, discovered you was through Aperture and in that company, and you're the president of Aperture. Uh. And for people who don't know what aperture is, it's a lighting company, a very cool lighting company. How did you get involved with that company? And you know, how did you jump from you know, doing really bad wedding videos to the president of aperture.

It's a really good question. That's a really good question that obviously.

I had my stent kind of doing the directing for that production company, which which that was. That was good, that was fun. I would basically get asked to bid on a job maybe probably somewhere between fifteen and twenty times a year. I would put bids in and realistically it probably on a good year, i'd win I don't know what, six to seven. On a bad year, i'd only win like three or four gigs out of that, and they were like pretty big gigs. I could spend my time and shoot that. I could live off that

What year are we talking about? What years are we talking about?

I don't want to say, okay, okay, it's early.

Look, it's only been around for like fifty ten to twelve years, so it's not.

Yeah that long, someone's gonna piece it together, right.

But I ended up working for a really early YouTube. It's a little cringe, is why I say it too. Because I wasn't really happy with a lot of the work that I was doing, but it was paying, it was regular. This is like the gold rush of YouTube to A lot of money was coming in and you.

Could and you can still cheat. You can still cheat to get your stuff up on on the on the front page.

I actually, to be honest, I wasn't doing a lot.

I was basically managing the production schedule and making sure that that the videos would come out on time.

I actually had the Rocket Jump guys on and they told me there are techniques what they did back to the day.

You could just you could just just do a thing to tweak it.

And you were on the front page. That's why they have nine million freaking subscribers.

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know what that that stuff is is life changing and I still think that way about most new film technology that comes out. The first one to get there and break it before it is too hard to break.

Dude, you you read the rewards.

Get on those guys, all right.

So you're working, you working on YouTube, so.

Doing YouTube channel, managing for a big guy out there. Eventually, I'm not happy with the work I'm doing there. I'm kind of getting this sort of I'm getting the trickle of commercial gigs. I'm not really happy with a lot of it. And I get reached out to by this person who is the he's one of my mentors, but his wife's brother reaches out to me and says, hey,

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I meet this guy in this warehouse thirty miles east of Los Angeles, and I sit down, and I swear it looks straight out of like a like a James Bond of Me or something like the light start. Damn, I'm sitting in empty warehouse. There's like two chairs, and we're looking at each other and.

We're just talking rights.

To be honest, as soon as I walked in, like my first thing that I'm thinking is like, I need to get out of here. This is not a good situation. Like this is clearly not legitimate. Why did my mentor like recommend me for this thing? But we started talking about equipment, and you know, this isn't that long ago. This is twenty thirteen or something like that, And this is just after the DSLR booms happened. Right, DSLR boom happens.

It's expensive as hell.

Hell, and it used to be like the cheap option, right, And like I was really tapped in on the gear. I was a here nerd, so like I did all the research and I was like, oh my gosh, like this shoulder rig is only eighteen hundred dollars, and like, you know, he's looking at it and he's like, you know, like that's two bike handles and like some PVC, Like do you really think that's worth eighteen hundred dollars?

Right, And you got to start thinking.

Don't get me wrong, I get all the people out there that say fine eyes by twice, right, Like I have one of those people too, right, But when you have a niche industry that all of a sudden becomes blown up, and the people that are providing for that industry aren't pricing it for a lot of people that are just pricing it for studios, Like if Disney comes over to you and says, how much is a light?

Yeah, dude, you you're Disney, It's ten grand a.

Light, right, Yeah. But the whole thing that he said was he was like, I think that there's going to be this change that's going to happen someday. I don't have a lot of experience in the film industry, but I'm looking for someone that is a shooter, that understands filmmaking, that knows what the indie process looks like I can actually just try to push this stuff right. I didn't go to business school, I didn't do any of this.

I was doing this now, I probably would have reached out to you, Alex.

I probably would have reached out to me, I would have reached out to Darius, I would have reached out to anyone that has some kind of following online. And I just said, hey, I'll send you this thing. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you do like it, consider saying something about it. And yeah, now I say this, and everyone's like, well, that's the most obvious influencer marketing crap ever. But you gotta remember this is a different time.

And to be fair, the gear was pretty good, but I think a.

Lot of it was also that nobody was reaching out at the time, Nobody was taking them seriously.

No one taking no one was taking the online filmmaking community seriously.

And I think even today we're still starting to see the online film making and you get taken more seriously. It's blown up a lot. It's changed, like crazy, right, like we live in a day and there and now where you know, Cannon pays like a quarter mile to like someone like the top like crazy again, not not me, but like these like crazy something.

Yeah, that was his name, Peter what's his name, Peter something or other? Oh god, I think And okay, the big guys things. I have no idea Peter Cannon or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, I know that all those are huge now it's crazy to me, which is insane, but nobody was taking them serious at the time. Because of that, we ended up just meeting these people, talking to these people, and to be honest, it was kind of radio sounds for a while any of the rolls. Around two months before ANAB I actually put in a notice to quit. I say, hey, you know, I've been here for ten months, which is longer than I expected to be there. I

So then random people are now at our time by ten and it's this swarm of people.

I think I did something like like sixty to seventy interviews per day because every time I shot an interview, like three other people would see it and be like, why is this company so hyped?

I need to go shoot a thing now.

Dude, I gotta stop you. When I was doing research on you and when I typed you in, all I would see you is doing is and ab videos, Like that's all there other than the thousands of videos you've done yourself. I would just see interview after interview of baby and baby, like, dude, did this guy sleep?

No?

So this became now it's like a tradition or something.

Right, It's like go to nap an interview ten, which is I think it's very flattering and great and.

It's a good thing for the company too.

But at the time it was we were just so shell shocked, right, Like we had like five people there maybe, and we're like overwhelmed by people. Like I think Shack came by at some point, Like Shack comes to NAB.

You mean you mean Shaq Shaq Johnson or or I don't joking, Okay, I'm absolutely joking with you.

Shack comes by and uh, you know they're like the booth is just so busy that he ends up walking by and uh, if becomes this crazy thing. We're at the end. Uh you know, one of the bigger gear companies out there actually asks like, hey, would you be interested in sitting down the talk business, And the big question all of a sudden becomes, uh, one, is aperture going to remain aperture by itself as an independent thing? Or Two? The second question when we all sat down

But now you're like the face of Aperture.

They love you. That's how life works. And let me just say too, Uh, there's like a lot of people that work in aperture that work super hard that I get credit. I get I get way more credit than I deserve on this stuff, really, and it's just because yeah, I can't say that's not seriously, there's there's so many people here that work super hard. So I do want to be clear that for the most part, people think I'm like some like black magic Wizard or something. We're

I mean, you're not the one in the back actually designing and building it from from from scratch yourself, sir.

That's and even the videos where you have like the team of people that help us make the video.

You mean you don't do all those videos by yourself and editing by yourself.

This is what people think they want, some feeling of some person doing something. It's absolutely not true. Anyways, it's up against the the epic saga that has become aperture.

That's awesome.

A lot of changes have happened since then. The team's grown like crazy, but we're now at a point now that you know, like Disney bought a whole bunch of lights, which is crazy.

Did you charge them ten thousand dollars? Did you charge them ten?

No?

Absolutely not. In fact, they sat down they're like, well, what's the Disney price? And I was like, there is no Disney price, because like you get to realize that we sell for average judgemo filmmakers, right Like I talked to gear companies that are like, we feel bad when normal people buy our products because normal people aren't supposed to buy our products, right, Like, I would feel bad if you charge some guy down the street had like fourteen thousand dollars for some of these lights.

I'm like, this is crazy now today's technology now, I mean before I would get it because there wasn't led technology that it actually did cost a lot to produce a professional cinema light, you know. And I mean I worked at those lights. I've used those lights. There are beasts and they last forever. Ever. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.

Yes, and I think it's also that when you make them for a small quantity of people, then yeah, you.

Can do that.

Yeah, the same reason why, like you know, diving gear, Well, look.

That's why an Alexa look at an Alexa a lex' one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars for for for that's not for everybody, and arguably, unless you're have an ASC at the end of your name, it really doesn't matter as much when there's so many other options that can get you a really pretty picture that most people out there will never notice.

And don't get me wrong, there are there are you know, there are real differences expenses, absolutely, but if you aren't, I would just urge most people to do a little more research, because look, what is it when when the you look at the camera that shots Superman returns, Oh, the Genesis, Yeah, it was some million.

It was, but it was like it was like a It was kind of almost a Frankenstein between a Sony and Panas and a Panavision, and it was a beast. It was a monster. I saw that camera. It like the workflow was just built for five thousand post guys to work. It was just not a friendly can.

The only thing I just want to say, and like this is not to cast shade on people that use the super expensive stuff, because it's okay to use the super you know what you're paying for, you know what you're paying But there's so many people out there that they see price equals quality and it's just not true a lot of the time. In fact, if I'm being honest with you, perception equals quality. So it's like, just be wary of marketing. Be wary of because it does.

Every time I watch a Super Bowl ad. The first thing I think is.

Oh, if I buy that product, I'm paying for that Super Bowl ad, right, Like I can't buy it. I can't. It's really hard for me to buy a mothe because I'm like, damn, MOFY just bought like three super Bowl ads. I'm like, I just wanted to phone charger. I didn't want to pay for a Super Bowl l Likewise, I feel that way. The other type of marketing is where you stand back and you just price things really high, and you just say we're the best, and this is

Can I cars on this show given a little.

Bit, some asshole is sitting there thinking that it's just like me at some company that's trying to market stuff and sell stuff to you.

Somebody's sitting there and thinking.

By standing back and by being aloof and by pricing things high, this is how we'll get you to feel like it's worth more. This is all we get you to feel like it's royalty. And I have heard people say that I've paid in conversations about this stuff, and I just I want indie filmmakers to know and I think they already know this too, But know that one

I mean, we were talking a little bit before we got on air about my movie on the Corner of Egan Desire and that movie if you want to talk about quality versus investment. I purchased a ten eighty p pocket camera, shot the entire movie on it. I blew it up to two K and projected it at the Chinese theater, and nobody believed that I shot it on a little camera the size of my iPhone with shot at raw. But I also knew what I could do

It's not going to fit, right, It's not.

It's not going to fit a lot of what you're paying for is you're paying for. One is like intense reliability, which is that like, this thing will last forever and it's built like a tank and it's never going to break. Two is that you're also asking for like certain organomic things of like I just need it to do certain features. But if you're an anifilmmaker, you might never use those features, right, Like DMX is an easy one, right, like lighting boards

So why are you paying for that function?

Unless unless you're extremely pretentious?

Yes you are.

Hey, Hey, listen, listen. I said that. Ted didn't say that. If you're an ani filmmaker with a ten thousand dollars movie, you bust on a lightboard, You've got to re evaluate your you're a priority sir or man.

There there are plenty of plenty of talented people that can make it do unless and maybe you're using different.

But yeah, I completely agree.

Yeah, I think.

Uh so, now we're in this weird place where and I would say that the past two and a half years of After have been marked by this. Right, we've been doing this for seven eight years now. The past two and a half years in particular have been the indie community loves us, and we've kind of we really like we came from the bottom.

Yeah, I think zero.

There's people that come to the top.

There feeple that come to the botto. We came to the bottom. We're going up. And we're now at the point that this is the first time I've ever heard this in my life, that the low end is like after where you're going your gear is becoming too expensive and a high end, which is mind blowing for me. But people from the high end are now saying, after stopped playing with the kids, we like what you're doing, make it for us. And we're in this weird situation

Man, No, there's it's it's two camps. I mean, like, yeah, when you say you made a movie for five or ten grand people look at you weird and they're like, how is that even humanly possible? And then and then how dare you make cinema for that little bit of money? And then there's the high end guys. Look, I I'm best friends with some asc guys who look at what I do sometimes and they just look at me like I don't understand. I don't I don't understand.

I don't get it.

I don't did you do this?

It's and there's there's so much value in both of them. Yes, yes, there's so much value in both of them, and they're both right. It's just, uh, what's the end game either?

But what's the end game of each?

Yeah?

What's the end game of each?

Yeah?

Yeah, Look, if you're if you if you're making one hundred million dollar movie, there's a there's a way to make that movie. If you're making a ten thousand dollar movie, there's a way to movie make that. Yeah.

Yeah, that's just that's said it better than I could have ever said.

That's just just the way it is. So people, But sometimes where you get. The problem is and I love this,

Yes, and that right there, which you said, is what I wish I could tell everybody in terms of there's there's a high end and there's a low end, and for some reason they hate each other. I wish I could just tell people on the low end because it plays down to this, right, Like the low end thinks that there's no reason to spend that much money on the high end. And I know I sounded like I was talking, Yes, you can achieve amazing results with affordable gear.

Right, But you can't, like, you know, Chavo can't. You want Chavo to have the best paints, the best paint brush, the best canvas to do what he does, you know, or any of these high end.

Mastor needs the greatest tools.

He needs the best to So I want him to have a sixty five alexa. I want him to have you know, giant cranes that block off you know, he's flagging off the sun. I want him to do that because that's what a master of his statute deserves. To work with. And I'm not saying that he's better or worse than anybody else, but he is a master at what he does, so he you can't do what he does in the films that he does with, you know,

Making it's like we can tell the high end the low end is amazing and they can do incredible things for such little money.

Please respect for that exactly.

And I think it's just like how that the hop ends looking down, like how dare you? The bottom line is like up looking up and going, I screw you, you elite bastards.

Yeah, you guys spend money frivolously. You don't realize what you're spending money. And no, no, no, it's not true. The high end knows exactly why they're spending the money that they spend, and there's a precise reason.

For it, and it makes and it makes financial sense because the projects they're working on are by the time they're on set, that conversation has already had, it's already pre sold. They already know how much money they're going to make. If they're spending one hundred and fifty million dollars. I promise you, unless you're Cats, you're going to make your money.

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On, will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Best, my favorite, my favorite tweet on Cats. I've get to see the movie. I'm dying to see the movie. I can't wait to see it, because that happens once in a lifetime. You get once maybe twice in a lifetime, of film like Cats. Cats is the worst thing to happen to cats since Dogs. I thought that was, guess just the best review of that movie. Cats is the worst thing that happened to

I completely agree to that. For and like, let me the irony of this is, did I run a freaking gear company like we are when.

You run an affordable gear company?

People?

No? No, But let me just say people livelihood, because now we're in a place that people say like apture is like the gold stand for a lot of people out there, right, So let me just say, you know, our livelihood depends on people loving and liking and gear and needing gear. You don't if you're an indie filmmaker out there, people use gear as procrastination the same way that I see people that try to make their own

Just do the B.

Start off there, start off with a thing that you want to do, just setting out to do that. Being said, for the high end people right again, like seriously, I understand why, and I understand the results that you are that are capable if you peek out about gear, and it's amazing. But for ninety nine point nine percent of people out there, people just see as gears. I want to procrastinate and to research something that research isn't the best O time researches. Research is code for procrastination.

Most I did a ton of that, Oh god, so much, so much. That's why I knew what that red rock handle was because I did. I did. I did research on that I did. I did so much research just this.

Everyone doesn't. They say I want to I want to work in film, and you know they sign up for you know, I'm just as guilty of this as anybody else. Like it's fun to research. It's fun to feel like you're learning when you're not actually learning in the fastest possibly it feels good, right like, and and you know, I have people that reach out to me for for mobile or reach out for aperture, and I'm sure you

The two year old light that you bought from us a couple of years ago. It still works. You're good, it works.

Go go make something, dude, Like they go chase your dreams. Don't chase talking about your dreams. You know, I have no horse in this race. I have no horse in this prace. I literally benefit from the opposite.

So no, no, And the bottom line is that because there's as you know, and I know this might sound as a shocking statement, but there are a lot of talkers in our business who just like to talk and hear their own voice, and they don't actually go out and do it. So that's why when someone comes up and says, hey, I'm going to go make something and

Let me let me just say too, like I like part of mogul Is.

And again you see this all the time too, is that we talk to high end like the best ASC filmmakers out there every week, and when we talk they tell us every single one of them has some story about like, oh, we didn't really have the tool we needed, so we had to just Jerry.

Rig right, Absolutely everybody.

Has that story. So if that story exists on the top of the top highest end production, why are you using your lack of gear as an excuse to not get something done on the lower production?

Every DP I've ever worked with has has some sort of magic rig, magic light that costs five dollars that gives us like the coolest strobe effect or something like that. When I had I had Russell Carpenter on the show a while ago. He's amazing. Russell is amazing. For everyone who doesn't know Russell is he's a DP of Titanic and the New Avatars and ant Man and stuff. And you know, everyone was gonna and I was gonna get into true Lies and Titanic. But the first question I

Like a a a ring light, a ring light.

Before ring lights were ring lights, you know, there was the wooden built ring light with light bulbs built in. This is like going back into the nineties for like music video styles.

Still no dps that are using like strip lights that are just like they basically look like makeup lights. But they bring them one sets and dude, they bring them onto big sets. It's literally like a home depot strip.

Of Deacons did that? Deacons did that for like Blade us, Yeah.

All the time. Absolutely most look your your you know, everything goes according to plan until it doesn't, right, and like your job is to when it doesn't go according to plant, So you know, stop freaking out. Just don't have the tools. Do you feel like you need for things to go according to plan? Start moving and being ready and preparing and practicing to just let things get out of hand and figure it out.

That's the job.

And totally.

So we could keep talking about gear for about another forty five minutes, but uh or four or five hours. But I wanted to get into Indie mogul Man because is when I heard you you went over to Indie mogul I was like, well this this I didn't see this coming.

And uh yeah.

So I had Griffin on the show and I asked him like, wow, how did Ted get involved? Like I didn't, and there's like He's like no, it was great, he was great. We wanted to bring him in and it just all worked out and blah blah blah. I'm like, you know how Griffin is and like the sweetest, like Canadian sweet, Canadian sweet, he's Canadian sweet. Uh you can quote me on that. He's like super canadianswere He's so nice.

Yeah, that's a great question. Es. Basically, we we We've always been been in touch with the YouTube community. We've always been in touch with the online community of filmmakers. And back when Anyboddell had its first They'll Comeback, they were talking about it and I reached out and just said, hey, big fan of the channel, I watched the channel. I honestly watched the channel way way way back when I

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And sent it and it was kind of radio silence, right. I didn't really get a response, and I was like, man, that was like kind of rude. I like put in all this time, and like, you know, I was trying to support some people.

And eventually, like a couple of.

Months passed and you know, like a good idea kind of stalks you. It stocks you right, like you can't shake it. You know, you're you're you're eating portos at four thirty pm in the afternoon by yourself, and the idea comes back. And the idea was really simple, is just you know what would happen if I just asked and said, you know, hey, I am a huge fan of the show. I loved it since the very beginning.

Yeah, absolutely doesn't makes sense. Doesn't make sense at all. So I was thinking it was already kind of cooking.

That maybe we'd just start like a separate channel, or maybe it'd be like a ten SIM channel or something different. And I got to be honest, a lot of the motivation for that, and the motivation of the Aperture channel in the first place, was I the longer I was here at Aperture, the longer I was OFFSET. And you know, the film industry and it changes so fast every day, it changes, it's so hard to keep up with it. And like that's why it's great to have all in

When you ask a question like hey, do you know of anyone we're.

Just trying to be kind, asked we want to take you to the prom.

Yes, it was Uh, it was great. It ended up being like this perfect fit and we ended up talking to Eric and Don't about it, and they've been talking about how they wanted to see the show have new life, and I think for me, one of the biggest things that I was worried about was, you know, I'm not like Eric, who's like a practical effects genius, right Like, I'm not like Zach Finnrock, who's like a props master who can like make you anything, who can build you

I can't do that stuff. So for me, it was you know, what.

What can I do? You know, I really like Indie Mogul and just like how Griffin kind of brought this d why kind of documentary angle, what can I bring? And I started thinking about it, and I think one of the best things of being part of Aperture, and we also have we also have dating microphones too. That's here too, is that we've been in touch with some

So the one thing that I could bring to.

Mogul is I can bring this network of people that I know. And I'm going to tell you right now too, and I say this on the show too, But I'm not I'm not like a set expert. I'm not a lighting technician. I'm not Those people know more than me. But what I can do is I can bring someone and if you ask me a question, hey, how do you do this thing? I can bring someone that's an expert about it, and I will happily sit there with you and learn because that's my job and I need

And I feel you that's exactly That's exactly what I do And how I've learned so much doing my show is when I ask, when I ask a question, I really want to know, like I had when I had Russell on, I'm like, so Titanic, Yeah, James Camra, how was that you know?

Yeah? Absolutely? And I think a lot of people look at it like it's just this like marketing thing or like a money making scheme, And like I'll say right now, like Nobel doesn't make it, We really don't make any money.

All the money that we make those to editors that make the show.

And honestly, the editors that make the show are amazing, and I'll say their names right now to twenty in Austin are just amazing. And the reason that the show is able to exist and that I'm still able to do Aperture is because those guys do the heavy lifting. Of making the episodes happen. I I spent some time, I learned, I get to talk, I get to meet filmmakers, and then I'm out, honestly, and those guys put together the show and all the episodes that people watch and

So that's that's amazing, dude. And you've been able to accomplish in such a short amount of time, dude, is pretty amazing. I mean you you're definitely hustling out there, man, And like like I said, hustle, hustle recognizes hustle.

Man. So I got you. I got you.

And on a side note, I think I told you off air, but I want to say it on air. The only light that I used on when shooting on the corner of you and the lyre was an aperture light. And the few times we was light because we were all natural lighting mostly was one little led light and we just bounced it off walls and stuff like that, and it was great. It was wonderful. It was wonderful.

Dude, you've got to you gotta let me know about like if there's anything in terms of feedback or features or anything like that that you need, because that's that's literally that's how we make everything now, is it's just people tell us a list of stuff. It goes into a little list, and then that's what the engineers work on. They just work on that list of things. That's like people. That's the thing is that most people that make stuff,

Stop it, stop it. That just makes way too much sense. That makes sense, right, Like that would break the easy rule. So you don't want to do that. You want to break the easy rule. Now, what is the biggest challenge you think facing filmmakers today?

That's a crazy question. Ooh, I think I have a slanted view of this stuff, to be honest. Do you mean in terms of.

Just as a challenge, like as a challenge on as filmmakers as the industry in general, because look, there's always challenges with gear there's always challenges with finding money. There's always challenges of making money with a film, Like where do you think you feel that the biggest challenge is because before, in the eighties and nineties, it was technology. Technology was arguably one of the bigger challenges because you could just make a movie and it was sold. It's done.

Quality to make things. Yeah, high quality, super make a movie.

Absolutely absolutely you could. But in the general, in the in the whole industry, I just love to hear your perspective on where you think the larger challenge is for filmmakers moving forward.

Let me let me say that's not the problem first, and I think I'm moving around on It's nice as it loops in the circles. If you ask anyone on the high end what's the problem of filmmaking, they're going to say. To low end, they're gonna say that that that dude down there is taking my gig and shooting it for way less and he's taking no money or working for free or whatever the heck end. He's ruining my industry, right, And I'm sure there's someone listening that

Of the price and get the commercial somewhere else. I get this, But you also got to.

Realize that we live in a time where the demand for content is higher than ever that it's ever been. Because of that, there's more jobs and gigs and need for video and content, whether it's online digital commercials. And I know everyone hates making an Instagram ad in the vertical form. I know that everybody hates that, right, but those are real content jobs.

Those are real video gigs that didn't exist before.

And guess what, most of the people that take those jobs are lower end filmmakers, right. So the problem isn't each other. And I don't think the problem is that there's less jobs in the industry. There's more jobs than ever. I think if you're an independent filmmaker and you want to do narrative, the problem is marketing, and the problem is making a film that actually provides value to somebody.

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Marketing isn't the same way that it used to be. If you're looking, you're talking about industries that have changed. Oh my god, filmmaking and marketing together and changed. If you're a filmmaker that doesn't know how to market your.

Movie, or yourself for that matter.

Or yourself for that matter, you're you're dead in the water. And I think a great example of that is you know, I think this year Peanut Butter Falcon came out.

Yeah, we talked to the.

DP and the team amazing, so good, and they shout it and we're like next to nothing. Man, it didn't get into Sanians. It went to south By Southwest instead. I know a lot of people are like, yeah, of course I went to south By south dude. There's so many films that go to south By Southwest and don't go anywhere.

Most most films.

Go and do go anywhere, right, And I'm sure.

People are like no, but if you no, no, no, that's not the case.

The problem is that the traditional ways that I've worked for marketing, which are you know, festivals. There's people that will make it with festivals, but they're not as potent as they used to be. It used to be like you get into Sundays, so that was your way, and it was it was actually it.

Was a ticket.

It was a ticket.

It was it was a gold it was a golden ticket. You got into Sundance, you got your movie sold, you had a career period.

And it was possible to get into Sundays because it wasn't this like super corporate, high end Hollywood.

Thing that it is now.

I'm not saying that it's super super corporate, but I'm saying that, you know, a list movie stars are now in Sundance movies, which is that's strange, right, that's strange and some degree. So you can't look at all these traditional You can't look to a PR firm because you probably don't have the money. If you're doing an India film, you got to look at yourself in terms of social

No, dude, learn how to do this.

Learn. I guarantee that you can learn this, and you can probably do this better than a lot of the older marketing people out there that don't even have a Facebook or don't even have Instagram. If they do, they don't know how to use it. I think it's social media's kind of the computer of our generation, right. It's the thing that gives you an edge over people that have way more experience than you were able to use it to promote your movie.

I mean, if you look at every industry throughout time, especially in the Industrial Revolution, when electricity was coming around and the light bulb was coming around, people were like, no, no, that's too dangerous. Kerosene is the future because there was an entire kerosene industry ran by Rockefeller, who owned the oil, and he was like, no, no, I don't want you to mess with my kerosene business. Or when trains came in versus horse and buggy, or when the car came in

And oh and I had a lot of filmmakers that blew up from those early streams.

You know, it was like Casey Nistat people, Casey Nystack, he was he was the first one. But I have to say, because I was telling you, I was going to tell you the story of how I should of controls.

Yes, I want to hear this, Okay.

So in two thousand and five, when YouTube was a year old, maybe it was before pre Google, and I created a DVD for my short film Broken that had like one hundred visual effect shots in and we shot it on a DVX one hundred a Panasonics. It was pimp classic with a wide angle adapter. So we had a nice oh yeah, the screw on wide angle adapter dude, Oh yeah, oh yeah, I was nice two cameras.

Please give me something that looks like a movie.

It was twenty four P. You kidding me. It was like the first twenty four P camera, not that Canon XL crap, like real twenty four P. So we had two cameras set up. Then we had we edited on a final cut four five something like that, and we did our visual effects in shake and we had like one hundred visual effects shots in it. And I put together a three and a half hour Gorilla film school on how we did it because in the marketplace there was nothing about how to make an indie film. Nothing.

I think you know, at the end of the day, it always comes down to what if you're working on and taking it really seriously, dude, I can say the same thing about my time after. I didn't expect to be here this long, dude, and you just don't know, You never know. You got to put you got to take everything seriously that you do. And believe me, I feel the same way about like but with the one thing about is that it's never too late. That's another excuse that people say all the time, I missed my

It's gonna take it's gonna take too long. It's gonna take too long. And the same look. The same thing happened with me with indie Filmhoussole. I started in twenty fifteen. There was an other podcast going on at the time. I mean, I'm not the first indie film podcast, yeah, but I'm the most I'm the most prolific.

You know.

I got almost four hundred episodes of Justice One podcast because I just kept pounding it, and all of a sudden, by just this daily and weekly pounding it and grinding, all of a sudden, you look back and go, oh my god, I'm almost at four hundred, and.

You get it.

Yeah, and then but you have to start. You have to start like I turned out. I woke up one day at forty one, almost forty one, at forty and I said to myself, I have not made my feature film yet, and I can't do this anymore. I'm not twenty five. I gotta go out and make it. And thirty days later I was shooting my first feature. Yeah, that's simple. Not because it's like, oh I need this, I need that. No, we just got to go out and do it. And if it's good or bad, irrelevant,

Because if it takes you ten years to make every movie too, you are not in business.

You're Kubrick Kuberg is the only one that can make that work.

And even Kopbrick has practiced. He practiced it, you know, and he was able to do this. Yes, I you know, it's the same thing my brother works, said Amazon, and people are I'm sure listening there, like does Amazon have to do with filmmaking? One of the number one rules at any tech company. And the reason I had to study this too. Is because I run a tech company. Is you have to throw out your first draft as quickly as possible. You have to get it done as

Faful, is fairly painful thing in the world.

Right, It's hard to say I'm born to be an actor and then be a put on a bad performance.

But at the same time, you're never going to do anything and.

Just start throwing stuff out there.

Man, And like Amazon does this, tech companies do this. You throw out a horrible, bad idea in the beginning.

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And then you reiterate. And the faster you can start reiterating, the faster you can start practicing, the better that results. I mean, I would say Muggle is doing the same thing too. When we first started, we were like, we have no idea what this is going to look like. Let's just start making stuff.

And then you start to realize, figure it out.

What can I do long term? What actually makes sense? What is fun? What's enjoyable? Where's that balance? Everything's a balanced.

I actually talk about it in my book about the ten thousand We all heard about the ten thousand hours that Malcolm Gladwell said, of course, but the argument was that there's a new thing. It's not ten thousand hours to learn one skill. It's the ten thousand experiments. So you have to keep doing it and doing it and doing it because you learn more from trying and failing than you do from just training to do the one

It is, And who is spending the most money on business? And what is the most efficient work process? Tech companies, So how are they doing it? Because there's some method to the badness, and the method is iterate as quickly as you can just start throwing things out there. And I think it's harder in art than and tech, because tech you can be like, hey, I read this quick

But you know what, just look, I love the Room. I think The Room is one of the greater films of all time. Maybe not for the reasons that Timmy was so thinking it was the greatest films of all times, but I personally think the Room there's always something for somebody.

How are you approaching this? Are you talking about like you love it.

In a way of like he threw something out there as quickly as possible.

No, no, no, no. If you want to have this conversation about the Room, I can have this conversation about the Room because I love the Room and I am not ashamed of it. I think I'm one of many millions of people who love the Room. The reason I love the Room so much is one Tommy Wisseau is our modern day ed Wood, where there is so much passion and delusion in his filmmaking process that all he

Banter and to chat and be like then and I.

Would sit there and we were watching it, and you just see people going, why is there?

Why?

What's going why is it? The same stock footage from San Francisco, What's going on? I'd like, what is it? He's talking to a dog? What is like? There's so why is there? Pictures of spoons what is happening, Like it's so bad that has transcended good, Like there are movies that are just bad to be bad, sack Like I saw that documentary about the worst film ever made, Troll two, which is an amazing documentary, and then I

Oh my gosh, oh my god, send me send me this link.

This is like Coelus ridiculous.

Uh, you know, I I will, I will I watch The Room again at some point, and I'll be sure to remember.

You have to watch it with friends. You got to watch it with friends. If there's alcohol, if there's alcohol in play, it's even better. You know, if you can watch it at sundance, even better. These are the things. But it's so it just transcends. Like you watch ed Wood and you watch like Panna nine from out of Space, you just go, you there's there's so much love behind it, Like it's there's just so much insanity. Did you ever see ed Wood? The movie Tim Burton's movie Edwood?

I don't think I have that, dude.

You okay, okay, okay, your homework assignment's ted. You need to obviously watch the obviously watching myself, you watching it, obviously watching movie. But after you watch my movie, you've got to watch ed Wood. Tim Burton's Edwood. Any filmmaker, yes, will cry in that movie because you could just see the love and the love and the insanity, the insanity

I can see that in that in that view of art, I can see how that is an eternal, once in a lifetime movie.

Just you can't read. I couldn't remake that if I tried, Like if I wanted to go out and make a movie badly enough, because I would know the joke. I would know the joke, and you would too.

Self aware, it's not funny. It's Rebecca Black's Friday, right, Like, yeah, it has to be. It has to be earnest for it to be as funny as it is.

Yeah, exactly, that's what makes it work. We've gone completely off topic, but this is fine.

I think everyone.

I think everyone's enjoyed it, all right. I mean we could keep talking for hours. Brother, But let me ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker wanting to break into the business today.

I think outside the Box is everything that someone everything that's worked for someone that is twenty thirty years older than you. I don't think it's going to work for you because the time's changed so quickly, and it's every right.

I appreciate it, dude, it's not nineteen ninety one. You are not Robert Rodriguez. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. It's not gonna happen that way anymore, guys. It's the way it works, a different way like YouTube.

That's what I mean by the research and things that you're doing right now, and you're I guarantee people are researching. They research the way that old people made it. It's not gonna be the way that you're gonna make it. I'm sorry, it's just not The industry is changing too much. Try something new, do it earnestly, put all of your effort into it, and just see what happens, and you might be surprised.

It could fall flat on its face, or you can have the room. Okay, are those the only two options we have? I really is that it. I mean it could be really bad or it could be the room. I don't know. That's really now.

What is horribly hard, man. I mean everyone listening to this knows this, but it's just like it's tough out there. Man.

Look everyone, if anyone listens to my podcast understands how I mean. I've I've given a lot of tough love conversations and tough love episodes where I'm like, you know, follow your dream, but don't be an idiot. You know, and and you know, and and all My work is about trying to break down the realities of the film business while still being supportive, while still being motivative, while

Like you know, one of the things that I like to think is like, if you were doing this in any other industry, would this be a waste of time? Yes, sir, Like if you if you spent five years working on a screenplay. Let's just pretend like Ellen has this weird thing, coffee shops has this thing.

No, it's got this coffee shops, final drafting, coffee shops. Yeah, I get it, I get.

Yes, absolutely, it's got this this way of making wasting your time seem like a normal thing to do, and you you can't fall into that, into that vagueness. You can't fall into that that lazy river, because you'll sit in the lazy river forever. And one of the things that helps is if you're not from that city, go home and just just look around and be like if I lived in you know, from Baltimore. So I'll say Baltimore. I lived in Baltimore and I spent five years working

They do?

You as a bomb.

I'm sorry they would view you as a bomb.

But for some reason, when you're in La and you tell somebody working on your screenplay for five years, and they're like, oh, it must be really good. Just don't let yourself fall into that. Look at it like you're looking at it like any other job.

Seriously, do it must be it must be really good.

It's but like, let's let's just assume, like you know, okay, Like say you did want to work and you want to be like a lawyer or something, and you just said like, oh, I'm just like studying this for the Bible contract for five years.

It's like what, so you you're a bomb.

It's like you gotta treat you, gotta be that cutthroat about it. You can't just say, oh, because I'm in the film industry, this is okay. It's it's it's not okay. And I don't mean this to say this as a bummer, because I'm sure someone's like, man, that really bummed me up. No, I'm not trying to say that. I'm just it's easier to say things that are nice and like everything's fine. It is harder to say things like you need to get your you need to get your stuff together, because

Like I always say, anytime I jump into an uber, I always go, so, how's the screenplay going, and to go, how'd you know?

No, that's so mean.

No, No, it's either how the screen how's the screenplay going? How's the screenplay going? Or how is the castle call? It's one of those two, and it's and it's and it's sad, but it's true. And I'm not trying to look. We all have the hustle. We all got to do our things. I'm making a joke, but you know, if if anything, I've done more than enough to help the community. So I can occasional joke. It's okay.

You're doing it for like six months or something like that. That's different.

No, No, looks like you know the duplus brothers, right, of course, Mark and j Right. So the du Plus brothers. When they first got back from sun Dance with the puffy Chair, they were the toast of the town. So they went on the water bottle tour, you know, the water bottle too, around to all the agencies and all the studios in the lounge and given a water bottle, and you just and you meet with everybody, and you meet, you meet everybody like, we want to work with you.

For stuff, call make stuff and they will call it's it's uh. You know. When I was think commercials, all the same thing was. It was never because you had a great meeting. It was always because they watched something they liked and they were like, can you make And let's be real, it's always can you make this again? But for us and cheaper? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, if you're lucky though, like maybe we'll make it a little bit nice if you're lucky, you know, really lucky. Yeah.

When you were doing commercials, didn't you love when they said, you go out and you bid a job for like, you know, puppies, there's going to be a horse in the shot and the like, but there's no horses on your reel. Dude, it's a horse. I don't need to pull a performance from the horse, are you kidding? Minds?

It's people that are scared of looking down in front of their bosses. Right, some some see some see some great execs somewhere is like is holding on for dear life? Being like, if I just keep working this job for forty years, I'll be a head and head of creative at one of these places. But I just can't get fired in the meanwhile. So they want to recommend the safest option every single time, just in.

Case, just in case you, as a director screw up. I'm like, well, everything on paper looked okay, it's not my.

Friend, and I picked the exact guy that has lots of horse stuff on his reel and he did the horse thing for a horse commercial.

There was no one could flame me for this decision. Truly, there was no one better.

No one better. I mean, he is the horse guy. Like it's like, oh Jesus, all right, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life.

I'm still learning this lesson, but fail fast everyone's heard this. Everybody has heard this. You don't really understand what it means. You don't understand what it means. You think fail fast means like write a first draft and then like look at it again tomorrow. No, I mean like, write something that's awful and show it to a lot of people, and you gotta you gotta get used to that.

And I don't care what industry you're in.

I don't care if you're a writer, if you're a filmmaker, if you're a cinematographer, Go shoot something horrible and stand next to it and be like, this is the thing that I made.

It's so hard, but just do.

It earlier than later. Get used to that feeling, feel comfortable in that feeling. It's something that like I wake up every day and again, you know, these days I'm doing I'm doing more company running the stuff. So I make probably five decisions that I regret every day, and you have to go back on them and say, you know what we tried, because you can't just do the same thing all the time. Although you're not going to go anywhere.

Right, Very very good advice, sir. Now, what was the biggest fear you had to overcome to make your very first film.

Oh man, I don't know if I'm a great person to ask this question too.

Because your fearlessener? Are you fearless?

No?

No, I don't think that. You think, well, one mother question was the greatest fear.

Yeah, the greatest fear you had to overcome to make your first fear, to make your first project, to shoot your first thing.

It's just looking dumb. Yeah, everyone's afraid of that, right. It's it's scary to say this is the thing I'm born to do and then make something bad. It's like, well, what were you born for? Then?

That's literally what that's because you've attached your personality to your job or to your career.

What I'm born to do? Look at this thing, it's mediocre. Was I born for a mediocre reason? No, it's people feel that way and they're taking that way, suf. Just to be careful.

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I hate this question. I actually asked this question for your team members as a joke, and we just like because because I feel like, no matter what answer you give, everyone either they either get or they just rail into you excited that My new answer to this question is rat of two and all movies are based on the ratom two B scale. Does the movie have a rat in it? It's a six out of ten? Got it? The movie cooking in it? It's a seven out of ten.

So where can people find you and what you're doing online?

Yeah? Absolutely anyone that cares about technology and gear. And again I say this and fully standing by all the stuff that I say about your research to be procrastination. For some people, it's also just their true and deep love. They really love gear, and honestly, there is a part of me that really does love the technology behind it. It's fun. So Aberatur is probably the easiest place for that.

Very cool brother. Thank you so much for coming on, man. I know we could talk for at least another four or five hours, but you're busy man, and I got things to do as well. But I do appreciate it. I would love to have you back sometime. And it was it was great man, So thanks for being on the show.

Brother, Yeah, it was fun. Thanks, I appreciate it.

I want to thank that for coming on the show and dropping those major knowledge bombs on the Indie film muscle Tribe today. Thank you so so much, Ted for the good work you're doing over at Aperture and at Indie Mogul. If you want links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three ninety six. Thank you so much for listening to guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.