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Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three ninety one. Hollywood is great. I also think it's stupid and small minded and shortsighted. David Fincher broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft.
It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, today on the show, we have award winning cinematographer Eric Messersmidt. And Eric has had the privilege of working with some amazing people over the course of his career, including the legendary David Fincher and Michael Mann, just to name a few.
In this conversation, we talk about how he collaborated with both of these giants in the industry, how he approaches the process of lighting and shooting and telling a story visually, and we talk about his amazing work in the new film Devotion, which is out in theaters. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Eric Meshersmith. I'd like to welcome to the show, Eric Messerschmidt. Did I get it right? Sir?
You sure did? He nailed it.
I appreciate it. Man thanks very much for coming on the show.
Brother, Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here.
So, you've you've done a few things in the business so far, you know, as you're a young man and you've you've been playing with some heavy hitters over over the course of your career. It's pretty interesting.
I've been really fortunate. Yeah, I've been really fortunate to work with some great people.
For sure, without questions. So my first question is, man, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film business.
Well, you know, I I was a kid that loved to make stuff. You know, I love to take things apart, I love to build things. I was. I was a terrible athlete, but I was creative. And I like to take photographs, and I like to paint, and I like to play music. And I was you know, I was,
I was doing stuff. And I got involved in in theater really early when I was a kid, and and I was I was never really interested in performing, but I was always interested in doing stuff behind the scenes, and that kind of led led me to a life in the movies. I think, you know, to some degree, I like the camaraderie of it. I like the the shared experience of it. And you know, when it came time to go to college and think about what I wanted to do with my life, it just it just
sort of seemed like a like a fit. And honestly, it wasn't so much about the work in the beginning. It was about the experience. You know. It was like about doing stuff up with people really and you know, sort of like you know, photography in the beginning really interested in me. But it's a it's a it's a it's a solo occupation for the most part, you know, I mean, in most cases anyway, it's like it's you know, it's just you and your camera, which I think can
be really meditated. But but but it wasn't really what I wanted. I wanted I wanted to experience with a team, you know. So I just kind of landed in in cinema, I guess, you know, in to film school and came out of it on the other end trying to figure out what to do you know, the next forty years of my life or whatever.
It ends up being. Now, you came up in a time where you really needed to kind of go through the mentoring process and in the in the scope of like you get on set, someone takes you under their wing, and you might have learned some stuff in film school, but it really starts at all the film set and you've kind of worked your way up and you know, to do a lot of gaffing work. You did second unit work until you became a cinematographer on your own right.
And so many filmmakers today, especially ciner Rock's young cinematographers today, they just come out and they're like, I'm a cinematographer because I have a camera, and and then I've worked with some of them and I go, oh, you you've never seen played runner? Okay, then like it's it's it's an interesting time because now you know when you and I were coming up, because we're a similar vintage. I'm a slightly bit older than you, but a little similar vintage.
You know, it was so expensive, man, everything was so damn expensive. The gear was so expensive, and you couldn't get access to this stuff, so you really couldn't practice on your I mean, I'm assuming you came up on film as well.
I did. I did, Yeah, I mean, I my my generation of film students, you know, we didn't have HD cameras or I don't. I don't think. You know, when I was in school, we even had a digital and it wasn't even part of the conversation. You know, we were processing sixteen on year film or you know, the senior students and the MFA students were shooting in thirty five and you know, it was like an investment to
make a movie at that time. I mean it still is, obviously, but but for us, you know, it's like you had two cans, you know, two four hundred foot rolls of sixty milimeters and you had to make sure it counted. You know.
Oh but every time that you know, I know, every time you heard that little like that's money, that's money just flowing. Now you roll and roll and roll.
Yeah, yeah, I mean you know, it was like back when rehearsal meant something, you know. I you know, I think I'm really glad I had that experience, and I'm glad I did it that way. And you know, I I think it's important, you know, I mean, I I know, I don't think that what we do, or certainly what I do for a living, can be learned in school.
I mean there's you know, it's like you learn things like how to you know, you kind of learn how to how to react to imagery, I think, and how to critique imagery, and how to think about movies and how to think about you know, the big picture idea of storytelling and stuff to some degree in film school, and you learn about your own taste and what you're attracted to and that kind of thing, and how to communicate with other people and you know, all those skills
that are incredibly important. But but you don't learn much technique in film school, you know, because you just don't have enough time. You know. It's like, it's like the film set is a complex environment. You know, it's a it's a it's an environment of technology and equipment, and it's math and science, and it's also personality, you know, storytelling and creativity, and it's uh, it takes time, I think to learn how all those things congeal, you know,
and and how to navigate it. And so yeah, I mean, I I I really believe that the kind of the mentorship idea or the idea of matriculating through the process is a really good one and something worth protecting, you know. I Mean I came out of film school and I was like I'm a cinematographer. You know, I had business cards. I think I'm you know.
A business card, and that's all that's all you need is a business card.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. Take it until you make it right. But you know, and I got to l A and I you know, I had shot some music videos and some short films and I was like, I'm going to be a DP and I'm going to do it. And then of course the reality of life hit me and I had to. You know, my parents, you know, we didn't have any money. I didn't come from a wealthy family. You know. My parents are teachers and librarian. You know, it's like we so I you know, I kind of
had to. I had to make it on my own to some degree, you know, and and figure out how to make a living and pay my rent and all that stuff. And uh And in the end, I wouldn't have traded I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know. I mean I got to meet so many great people, and I I learned from them. You know, you absorb their their technique and their their process. And I think that's crucial. It's certainly been incredibly importan in my life.
Yeah, you worked on as a as you started really coming up as a gaffer, and you did a You gaffed on a lot of big shows. I mean you worked on Ant Man, I know with Russell. Russell's with Russell, who's the sweetest human being ever, Like he is such a lovely, soft spoken guy. And I'm like, how did you work with James Cameron for so many years? Like how how did those two personalities work?
Man?
And then he's like, I'll tell you some stuff off air, but oh, I'm sure you've I'm sure you've heard a couple of stories as well on set. But but as so as a gaffer, can you explain to everybody what it meant to come up as a gaffer? Because the dps I've worked with in my career who came up as gaffers, I find are so well versed on set. They just will be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. There's just a different way of looking at the set. How to
do a setup. You've already been doing what you're telling somebody else to do, because you're like, yeah, I just set that over here and then they just do their thing. How did that prepare you How did that prepare you to be a DP?
Well, you know, I think there's a couple of things. And look, everyone's got their own process, and everyone has their own, you know, their their own path. For me, I was you know, I was lucky. I I liked lighting, you know, I liked the I liked the stuff and initial you know, I like the process of being on the set and getting in the mix of it. You know, you know, when you when you're a gaffer, uh, you're
in the movie quite early. You know, you're you're you're in a lot of the early conversations, depending on how how much the director photography chooses to involve you, you're you know, you're off and on the early scouts. You're certainly on the text scouts. You're in the production office. You're negotiating with the producers. You're negotiating for equipment and you know, labor resources and stuff, and you're you know, you're oftentimes in meetings with the director and trying to
figure out how to accomplish certain things. And you're in a great position to observe those conversations happen as well as you know, a bit of a fly on the wall in a way that you know, camera operators and assistance are not you know, you're you're camera operator. You're rarely on a tech scout. You're very rarely in the office and the prep and you know, you may have intimate conversations with a DP and the director about how
they're going to approach certain things. But but but I think when you're a gaffer, you're really kind of in the thick of it. And for that, you know, for me anyway, it was incredibly helpful to learn how to prep and how to you know, learning how to read blueprints and draft and how to communicate with the art department. You know, you're you know, and I was a gaffer.
I spent a lot of time in production designers offices and art director's offices and sitting in there with the draftsmen, and you know, you're you're you you know, you learn about all that stuff and you have to get good at it quickly if you're going to survive, you know, so that you know that process and that that kind of part of my life was was incredibly helpful to me.
And then of course you know, that's it doesn't even include all the conversations you have with the DP uh in PREV then also obviously during your you know, during during the shoot, you know, when you're shooting your you know, at least when I'm a DP, my closest ally is always my gaffer. You know, I'm They're the person you know, they're you know, kind of the most effective weapon that
I have. And also you know the shoulder that I cry on most cases, you know, so you know, because they're sort of you know, the gaffer is in a really good position to kind of observe objectively about what's
going on and on the set. You know, the operators often in the mix, they're there with the actors, they're there with the director, they're you know, they're they're working every shot, and there there's hyper involved in gaffer is you know, working in a setup and getting a setup right, and then they're in a position to kind of step
back and watch the shot take shape. And so I find my gaffer is a really good person to kind of turn to for objection objective feedback of what's going on and how the shot is taking shape and what
they think could be improved and all that stuff. I mean, you know, not not always even just in lighting, it's in terms of generally what we're doing, and you know, as filmmakers, and so you know, I always when I look for gaffer, you know, I look for filmmaker first and foremost, you know, beyond what their what their lighting skill might be, or their personnel management skill is. You know, No, there's something I'm really glad I came up that way.
You know, you know, no, no question, no question. And there's something that that they don't talk about very often anywhere, let alone in film school, is the politics on set. There are politics that you have to deal with within the crew. There's different politics groups. There's the producer and the directors, but even just within the camera department there's politics that you know and on set and on you know, the production designer. How do you approach dealing because I'm
assuming it hasn't always been a smooth, smooth coast. The entire career you've had, you've probably run across some politics on set and how to deal with it and how to properly you know, not step on people's toes, and how to even fight for your own you know, as a DP, even fight for your own vision while still serving the director. But there might be other departments that are pushing on you because it's easier for them, but might not serve the movie. There's all sorts of agendas
on set that they just people don't talk about. So can you kind of discuss that a little bit without obviously naming apps.
Sure, No, you're you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, the film set, film set is full of creative people. You know, people get in the movie business because they they want to They want to contribute, you know, and they want to participate. And I you know, I think I think generally people in movies sets and film crew they have the best intentions. You know, generally people you know, they really want to make a great movie. They want to they want to do the work, they want to participate.
But also, you know, a lot of the work is sometimes just service job, you know, move this from here to there, do this, do that, and and that can happen, you know, for someone in my position with a director.
You know, if you're paired with a really strong director and I just need to put a twenty nine millimeters lens here, that's the shot, twenty nine million lens here, you know, and you may personally think, God, it'd be so much better on a thirty five people back a little bit, you know, but you have to be careful about, you know, when you assert yourself, you know, and you have to read the room and understand what's going on and sort of you know, h it's it's you know,
it's about timing, you know, and and and you're right, it's it's there are people with agendas, and there are people that desperately want to be heard, and there are people who who are who get frustrated when their voice is not heard, you know, and and and then sometimes you have to deal with that, you know, and and it's you know, it's that is part of the job,
for sure, you know. I mean, there's there's a bit of air traffic control and personality management with being a director photography, especially in a bigger movie, you know, where there's you know, you might have an operator who's very outspoken and wants to communicate straight with the director, and you have to figure out how to you know, when to assert yourself into that conversation, when to allow that
conversation to happen. How involved you want to get if you know decisions are being made that are outside of your uh, you know, what you think might be appropriate for the scene, when to interject without making someone feel bad, et cetera. You know, and it's it can be complicated. Uh, you know, it happens with production designers too, you know.
So how do you if you're a director of photography, how much ownership do you want to take over things like color palette, you know, or costume designers production designers too, you know, you sort of have you know, the director photography, the production designer, and costume designer are often tasks the sort of forming an aesthetic, the esthetic principles of the movie.
You know, you know, obviously with the help and with the leadership of director, but you're you're you know, in many cases that you know, those three people I think end up sharing that responsibility. And to be honest with you, probably the director photography gets a disproportion, not a which really should go In many cases it should be more
equally shared, I think. But uh, you know, it's it's it's challenging, and you know, I think you hope that you you end up with enough people who are generous and thoughtful and and are able to share themselves creatively. You know that that you don't run into a lot of problems it's not to say that they don't exist. And you know, I also think that there's something to be said for debate and disagreement, you know, on a set.
You know, it's like some of the best work I've done has come because a production designer and I disagreed about a direction to go on a particular set, or a particular way to design something, or you know, especially like complicated physical effects, you know, sort of things like that that need that you know, that are that are
different than a couple of walls and a camera. You know, it's those oftentimes, if you know, two people meet and they're strong minded and it's like, well let's do this now, and I think we should do this, and then you know, if it's a safe space creatively, then you work something out. If it's not a safe space, that's where it gets ugly, you know. But I do think, you know, that's sort of the idea of it being a place for ideas
that you can then you know, debate is important. But now don't a sentence you're.
Question no, you know, it's it's it's a complicated thing. It's a very total, you know, you're on eggshells kind of situation and it is a case by case basis. Like as a cinematographer, you know when you're working with a strong director, and you have worked and are currently working with two of the strongest directors in the business, Michaelman and David Fincher on your on two of two projects are coming out next year. I mean, they're really
strong directors Fincher specifically. You know, I had I had your friend and colleague Jeff Crunlworth on, and you know, I talked all about like David's legendary for being so technically precise with everything, and he's he almost has a Kubrick esque vibe to him in the sense that he could maybe light the damn thing himself like Kober used to be able to do so technically good at this stuff. You know what I mean. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
So how do you, as a cinematographer approach working with someone like David Because I know you worked with mind Hunter, which, by the way, gorgeous love that. Please tell me another season is coming soon? Please? I want another season. I think I'm not the only one. We all want another season.
Me too. I'm with you man, I'm with you.
Yeah, but like, how do you like that was a different that was a different scenario. I think that was kind of when you first started to work with David directly as a cinematographer.
Correct, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
So how did you I?
You know, I had seen Jeff work with David and I you know, I mean I have Jeff Is is an incredible mentor to me, you know, I mean, I owe him so much. And you know, Jeff is a real master at managing the set and managing the environment and boarding the director he's working with. You know, I mean I've worked with Jeff when I was a gaffer.
I worked with Jeff on with many other directors other than David as well, you know, And Jeff is always consistent at making you know, he protects the director and and and supports them, uh you know, whatever way he you know, he can find that they need support. And I think that's something I learned from Jeff Is. You know that the role of the cinematographer is fluid, and it's it's not a binary black and white thing. It's not like Okay, I do this and you do this.
It's it's it's much broader than that. Uh, and you know, I think part of it is you you you meet someone, you talk to them, and and then you're you know, you're first down the set. You really learn what it is they need from you or you know, and they
don't always tell you, you know. I mean I think is some you know, directors, uh, you know, often think they need something other than what they what they actually need to you know what I mean, they're they're they're not always the best people at stepping back and observing what it is, how how best they need to be supported, you know, I mean, I think none of us really are. You know, you sort of have to inquire and ask ask you you know, what what happened then you know.
But uh, you know, David is not that case. Dave is extremely good at sort of recognizing where he needs help and what what he what he needs. And you know, David is an extraordinary communicator. He's very clear and concise, and you know, his tremendous economy of language, so he can say quite clearly clearly about what he what he wants to accomplish. But he's also you know, he's he's been I think a bit mistreated because he is incredibly collaborative.
At least that's been my experience with him. I heard the very open to ideas and yeah and and and excited about ideas and wants people to bring ideas to the table. He just wants them to He wants idea is to be presented in a reasonable way with enough time to act.
On them, you know, and helicopter here.
No, yeah, exactly, yeah, uh, you know no, It's like and I think that that's you know, that's really what you want directors. You want someone who has who has a vision, who has a plan, who says, Okay, we're going to do this and this and this and this, and if there's room for improvement or room for other ideas, you can voice them when it's appropriate, and they could, you know, it's it's it's up to the director about whether or not they're going to take that idea or not.
You know, I don't think of my job as being one necessarily that that requires me taking ownership of anything. I mean, I think it's like, you know, I want a film I'm working on to be a dictatorship. I mean,
I think that that's where the best work gets done. Honestly, it just should be a benevolent one, you know, it should be ideally, but uh, you know, it's it's I I hope that I you know, I come and approach something and I am a director I'm working with has brought me there because they like or are interested in my point of view as well, you know, so so I and I want to bring something to the party.
And and I think, you know, it's certainly in my relationship with David has been that it's like we you know, we we make a very good team in terms of evaluating what's going on on the set and and bifurcating
our collective responsibility. So even though and you're absolutely right, David could for sure show up and talk directly to the gaffer and say put that light there, put that light there to you know whatever, But he also knows that I have a skill and I have a communication method with the geffer, and I have taste, and I have a point of view that that you know, for whatever reason, he sometimes likes and is willing to let
me run with. And then if he doesn't like something, he points it out, and that's okay, you know, I mean, that's I think that's part of the job, and it's it's really a lot of it is is helping the director, you know, pull the walls up of their sandbox so that they can play, you know, and right. And that's the way I try to look at it, you know, as much as I can. I mean, it's ego always
gets in the way a little bit. You want to you know, you really want to take Sometimes you feel strongly about whatever it is you're going to do, and you know, and you know, if you know, if it seems appropriate, your debate and if it's you know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but you know you're not the director. And that's how it is.
And I think you're right. I think you said that David kind of gets a bad rap sometimes. I think it's because of the legendary number of takes he takes. And I think that kind of has been like the the mythology of the myth of working with David, Like you're going to do it's like Kubrick again, We'll go back to Kubrick. You're going to do seventy. You're going to do seventy takes and he might take take three, but he's going to push you to seventy because that's
just the way his process is. And from someone who's worked with him, is that true. He does do sixty takes and stuff that not every take of everything.
I mean, will I mean David, you know, David wants to do it until it's right. And I think he should, you know, I think absolutely should. I mean, and and you know, it's like, look, I've been in a d I suite where we haven't done it right and it's painful. You know, yeah, yeah, you know, and and uh, you know, no nobody walks out of the movie theater and says, at least they made their day.
That's so great. You should actually get t shirts made and give it to give it to the department. And just like no one walks out of the theater and say, oh, at least they made their day. You're absolutely right.
But that's that's why.
But that's why, it's that's why his movies look the way they look, and that's why they are the way they are. It's I mean, there's something really magical about a Fincher film, all the back to you know, from seven, even Alien three with all the problems he had with that, but Seven and Fight Club and The Game and all of those films, they're so specific. Almost when I look at him, because I'm a huge David Fincher fan, He's
almost surgical with how he approaches telling the story. It's almost like a surgical scalpel almost, like it's so clean and every edge is almost done right. And I think that just comes from ten thousand commercials and music videos he's shot before he ever got onto a film set.
For Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know. Look, it's like, I think what is important to appreciate about David, and I think any filmmaker is that the you know, David in particular though, is very aware of film technique and film grammar and the kind of you know, the the He's incredibly cinema literate. So if you said to David, hey, I need you to go out and let's let's take this. You're gonna take this commercial, but I need it done in the style of Jean Lucagar, you'd absolutely do it.
You know. It's like David's David's choice of technique is is is his, arn't you know I think and you know, I think I think people discount and it's and I wish it was top more in cinema is the idea of this kind of balance between between intent and working practice, you know, the idea that you have, you have, you know, the Kubrick methodology of like, this is the shot I'm gonna shoot, and it's going to be this shot is gonna be on a twenty seven milimeter lens and the
focus is going to be here, and I'm going to get it until it's perfect right, and it might take all day, but I don't care because I need this shot.
And then on the other you have the kind of French New Wave or Cassavetties or whatever you want to call it, of this kind of veryite idea of like, well, let's just go out and shoot, you know, Lars von Trier kind of thing, like let's just go out and shoot and be spontaneous and exciting and fun, and we're going to get some stuff and then we'll figure out
in the editing room. And there's some intent there, but you know, they're both completely valid ways to make a movie, but both of them have a tremendous effect esthetically on the movie, you know. And and so it's so your point is quite right, Like you don't get the David Fincher look once you do it until it's perfect.
Can you imagine that John Cassavetti style David Fincher film. Can you imagine that would be.
Like just.
Like we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
But you know, the other the.
Other side is true too, you know if you so, it's I think that you know, you have to kind of there isn't enough attention made towards the environment of the set and the methodology through which you make the set has a huge bearing on how the movie feels emotionally, you know. I mean we love to talk about shots, and in film school they like, Okay, let's do this
handheld and it'll be exciting. What's way more nuanced than that, you know, because you could do you know, I mean there's handheld shots and and uh you know the great example, well it's not handheld actually, but it's on the dolly, but you know the shot and clute Jane Fawn is walking through the through the through the club and she's
she's eyeing or a shier and it looks spontaneous. You know, that shot looks like it's just a walk through the club, Jane, And we're gonna follow you, We're gonna pull back on the dolly and it's like, no, it's been If you watch it a couple of times, you realize so incredibly rehearsed it, you know. And and and that's you know, I think that's the great example of like the perfect
card trick of cinema. It's like making someone believe they've seen something spontaneous when in fact it's incredibly rehearsed, you know. And David is is you know better than anyone I know at exactly that now?
Is there is there any story that you can share publicly, uh with of you and David working on set, something fun, something like I learned something that day by seeing him work, something that you can share publicly. We could talk after our after we hit the record button off, we could talk about the other ones.
I you know, I think about that a little bit. Yeah, probably. I mean there's every day, you know, we're sort of confronted with with stuff. I mean it's like, you know, I mean.
Well, let me let me ask you this, you know, well, let me let me ask you this. What was the what was the worst day for you as a cinematographer on on working David that you felt like the entire world was going to come crashing down around you, which we all have those days on set, and how did you how did you overcome those days? And it could have been anything from a camera fell in the lake to the actor didn't come out of the thing, or
the sun's going down, We're losing the light? What is what was that day for you?
And David Sure it was you know, the first day we the first day of shooting on Mank, we we had we had had a plan. We were sort of like we had we had had a plan that that
that MGM and Paramount would have two different looks. That Paramount would be this sort of soft lit, very like gray environment, and it was because it was sort of the low rent at the time, and MGM would be glamorous and hard lit and lots of contrasts, and and that's how we would you know, And that was a conversation we had had a lot at the beginning of the movie, you know, like in the prep we had talked about it and talk and then we you know,
implemented a bunch of lighting plans as a result. And the first scene we shot in Mank is a scene where where Gary oldman is gambling with his buddies in the writer's room and they're spinning the they're spinning the coin and there's a whole there's a whole kind of bit with them. And they've got a they've got a show girl who's who's who's uh they have they have a secretary whos dressed. It's a show girl. And it's sort of like it's there's you know, levity in the
scene and it's sort of silly, you know. And we were going to do it softly, and we were just going to tend the windows, blow them out, the soft sideline, you know, And that's what we did. And we showed up. We rehearsed the scene the day before and it was lit and you know, we looked at it and then we started shooting and and at lunchtime David pulled me aside and says, it's not working, and this is working.
It's wrong. This is wrong. And you know, I'm quite a literal person generally, and immediately internalized it.
You know, it's me.
Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, and you know, and really what it was was it was the conversation of, like, hey, we made this decision to do it this way, and we can't do it this way. We need to we need to change the change the look. And you know, of course, yeah, I mean I started feeling like, oh
my god, what have I done it? But then it's you know, it's just it was a it was a decision that we had make that that that was wrong, and he was quite right, actually, you know, and so we we quickly moved over to the second scene we shot is this they're playing cards and it's and it was intended to be this kind of very dramatic slashes of light and there's patterns on everybody's face and it's sort of classic noir kind of style lighting with a lot of smoke, and and I was, okay, so we'll
go we'll we'll pitt, we'll go shoot this scene. The next day. We're going to go back and shoot this differently.
And and he, you know, so we finished the first scene, he was really happy with it, finished the second scene, was quite happy with it, and then we went back in we started talking about how we could do it differently, and and you know, we backed it all up and we put hard light out through the through the windows instead, and talk you know, explained to him what I thought we could do differently, and then we shot the scene and it worked great, you know, but it's sort of
like it was that moment of failure, you know, it's sort of like, oh my god, what have we done? You know, But in actuality of the conversation was really it was just, you know, between two people trying to figure out what could be improved, you know, And that's that's one of the great things about David is he's very open like that when it's not working.
And it's so funny because I'm sure there's other cinematographers listening right now going If I would have shot a scene with David Fincher and then went to lunch and he came up to me at lunch like, hey man, yeah, first half day didn't work at all. I can only imagine the internal oh my god, cause I mean I've been around dps all my career. I know how they think. They're like, holy crap, I've screwed this film up. And
that's at let's say, my level. Can you imagine if David Fincher walks up, or Michael Mann walks up, or or or Joseph works up somebody like some of these big directors and say something like that. But it automatic isn't funny how you automatically thought just first it's me, but it was it was a it's not that you like under expose something that's unusable. No, we exactly executed what we had planned to do, but it is not working stylistically. It's not like there was a problem with
your technique. What you went after you got but it's not working that But you internalize the different things.
Yeah, of course, I mean, because it's you know, it's I think also when you're a cinematographer, you are I think to be to be a working cinematographer, you have to these days, you have to be practical, right, you have to be responsible and practical and thoughtful, and you have to sort of you know, the costs of the day on a major motion picture is expensive, you know, and it's you want to use your resources wisely and
you want to make the right choice, you know. And you know the idea of reshooting something because because it doesn't look the way the director wants it to look is is you know, it immediately feels like failure. You know. I actually I quite think that's it's actually the opposite. I mean, I think that sort of that is the process of developing and creating something with someone who's is
learning about what's working what's not. And in the end, because we sort of looked at it together and we thought it it, we thought about what could be improved. It opened up a lot of things for us on that film and and help and ultimately it you know, it ultimately made us better collaborators and sort of and
it made the you know, improve the film enormously. And so it was like, I think it just you know, it takes fortitude to make that decision in that moment, and because there was technically nothing wrong with the scene, it just didn't look quite right, didn't.
You know.
All the camera direction we did is exactly the same. You know, the performances are quite similar too, you know. I mean it's like it's not like, like you say, it's not like it was under mistaken, you know, seeingly under exposed three stops.
Or something exactly. Now, I gotta ask you, man, because you're working on some pretty big budgets right now. I mean the movie you're doing with David the Killer, I'm sure not an independent film, uh, And the one you're working with with Michael Mann Ferrari, which obviously I have to go see. Uh it's my grandfather's company. But then you know, you're talking about massive budgets. The pressure is heavy on a normal cinematographer on a basic budget. There's
a lot of people asking you things. On a director as well, but you know, your your department, what's it like dealing with not just five people. I'm assuming your crew is fairly massive, and you've got a lot of things going on, and then you've got responsibilities here and there, and then like you were saying, costs and and make, it almost seems like the pressure of all the crap that you have to deal with overpowers the creative pressure almost, so there's a balance that you have to to do.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Yeah, I mean, you know, you're right, it's it's I mean, I think that's really where the importance of prep comes in. And you know, it's I believe you make the movie and the prep and you know, if you're if you do it right, you're you know, you're you're coloring the
lines when you're shooting. And it doesn't mean that there isn't room to to go outside the lines occasionally and make adjustments, but it's you know, it makes all that stuff easier if you know where you're going in the prep and you sort of have a you know, you have a visual plan, you have a you know, you have a logistical plan about how you're going to move equipment and people, and you know what your locations are
going to be in with your schedule is. It's it makes all that stuff substantially easier.
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It's it's complicated if you if you haven't done that obviously, and then you sort of are are are You're making the you're making the creative decisions and the aesthetics sort of you know, overarching artistic stuff at the same time you're trying to solve logistical problems into meet you know,
that's a real recipe for disaster. So you know, if you can, if you can prep the movie in advance with enough kind of understanding of what's going to happen and you know, with a little bit of contingency for whether or whatever, then it alleviates a lot of that stress. But you're right, I mean, you know, a lot of the job on a bigger movie like that is just personality management and people management, and you know, you're sort of you're trying to get people pointed in the right direction,
you know. I mean, on a on the movie I Do with Michael, you know, we had really big camera department. We're usually you know, shooting three or four cameras at any given time, and so you know, it's it's you're not in a position necessarily where you can control every frame,
you know what I mean. With David and I it's like we kind of set every shot together and we're like, Okay, we're gona do this, and we're gonna do this, We're going to you know, we're picking each lens together and going through, Okay, this is the camera and this is the camera. And then you know, uh, not every movie is like that, you know, and and sometimes I wish they were, you know, I mean, sometimes it can spiral
out of your grasp a little bit. You have to you have to clot back, but but you know, there's there's a bit of kind of allowing things to happen. You pay out lead and then you kind of pull it back when you can. You sort of try and figure out who's who's right which shots, and you know, it's there's a it's a process like anything, you know, any kind of massive creative endeavor like that.
Now I do have to ask, man, is it a was it a dream? Shooting bank in black and white? Like how you just don't get that opportunity in cinema today, Like I'm sure you got called by tons of your cinematographer friends at the AC going. So what was it like? It's like shooting shooting black and white at that level? Just I mean, unless you're the Coen Brothers that does it once in a blue moon, but the generally studios just won't allow it. So this was not only black
and white. It was black and white in the style of the Golden Age of Hollywood. So what was it like as creatively just living in that, in that world of blacks and grays and whites and all that.
Well, well, I you know, I mean, honestly, I was really intimidated. I I can imagine, you know, I wanted to make the right choices, you know, I mean, it's it's hard, It's like you know, I I was at the time, I was particularly conscious of the fact that that black and white could easily become cliche, you know, and and derivative of something. You know. It's just I didn't want it to be like, oh, they're doing the Venetian blind thing, you know, painting the shats on the wall. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know. So it's like I think, you know, I I was sort of you have the idea about what you're going to go out and make, and then you're confronted with the you know, the realities of the of the limitations the locations present to you or the stage sets present to you, and you sort of, you know, it's like filmmaking is compromise, you know, so you're always, you know, you're always sort of coming to it, coming to an intersection, figuring out, okay, A or B, I'll
do this or I'll do this, and you sort of hope that the decisions that you make in the broad sense congeal enough to make something that's consistent. You know. It's because it's really hard to see the movie, you know, in day six and uh, you know, I I think, you know, if I've learned anything in them day but it's like and Michael actually and a lot of the great directors I've worked from. It's like you have an idea and stick with it, you know, don't get cold feet,
don't get you know, and I did. You know, there were moments on Bank where I was worried and I said, man, I don't know if are we being bold enough? We've being you know, And I went out and had a beer with David one night and I said, I don't know, Man, I'm worried we're not being bold enough. I worried people are going to be critical of it. And he was like, fuck them, No, You're doing exactly what you should do.
Just keep this whole, you know, hold the course. And it was you know, at the time, it was exactly what I needed to hear it because I was getting insecure about what we were doing and I was exactly if it was right. But yeah, I mean, I mean
in terms of black and white, it was. And got what incredible opportunity, you know, to do something that very few people get to do, and something I really was excited to do and something I quite honestly was not comfortable doing when we you know, when we started that film, I mean I got more comfortable with it, and I you know, did a ton of research, and I looked at a lot of images, lots of tests and sort of figured out what it was we wanted to do.
But we also, you know, we wanted to make our own look too, sort of our own style, and that was scary, you know. Yeah, it was especially considered in the subject matter. You know. It's like I, you know, I just felt I felt the weight of honoring Greg Tolan and Orson Wells in the film and the film community as a whole. You know, when we were making a movie, I really you know, I wanted to I wanted to be respectful to what, you know, kind of the importance of that movie as well, you know.
I mean, Eric, I'm stressed out as you're talking about it, and I didn't shoot the damn thing. I mean, as you're talking, I'm like, oh my god, to area find Orson Wells and it's Citizen Kane, and and every filmmaker in the world is going to see this because everyone seeing Citizen Kane. And I could imagine you could just drive yourself mad thinking about this stuff.
Yeah, easily, Yeah, for sure. You know, you can just go to work and have a good time, and you.
Know, and it's another movie and you have to. You have to look at it like it's another movie. If not, you'll you'll psych yourself out without question. Now, I do you know you are working with Michael Mann? Or I don't know sure? If you're I think you're in post production at this point on that film. If I'm not mistaken, we can just finish, just finished. So what I mean? Michael Mann, He's a legend man, He's a legend in our in the in our business. And you know as well,
legendary stories. You know, I was in Miami when Miami Vice was going on, so and I came up in Miami. So all I hear is about Michael Man Miami Vice. Stories from all the old crew guys that I used to work with on the commercials. We say, yeah, I was on there when Michael and Adie almost came on, and like you hear these stories about what happened back then. So what's it like collaborating with someone like Michael because this is your first collaboration with him? Correct?
Yeah it was. I mean, you know, I don't really want to talk a lot about the movie because we finished it, and fair enough, we just we just made the sausage and now we're going to age it a little bit. In a little while, someone's gonna cook it up, and then you guys are gonna taste it, and you have to let us know if we did any good, you know. But I you know, look, it's like the great thing about this job is coming in and watching other people, you know, learning how other people make their movies.
And you know, as a cinematographer, I think it's your you know, it's your job to come in and and uh, you know, kind of like I said earlier, figure out how it is you can help, you know, what is it this person needs for me?
Mhm?
And it's often very different, you know, it's it's it's often you know, doesn't and so there's you know, there's a process of discovery I think creatively with people and also just just straight up logistically about where where where does my cob fit within this machine? You know. And and the thing about Michael is that he is probably
the most tenacious person I know. I mean, he will fight forever for his film, and he will fight for his actors, and he will fight for the but but you know, but most importantly, he fights for the story, and he fights for what he thinks is important for
the scene and nothing else matters. And I really admire that about him, you know, I mean he uh, he is not distracted by the kind of incidental stuff that that you know, me and my fellow cinematographers would go crazy about if it if it detracts from something that is dramatically important to him. And and I think by the way that he's he's absolutely right about that. And it's something I really learned from him. Is you know, you protect the film and the story first, and and
and all the other things are our secondary. So you know, it's it's uh, it's it's it's a it's an interesting environment to participate in. And and you know, the kind of energy that that feeds is is exciting and sometimes
complex and and uh and and uh uh frenetic. But but you know, but Michael, you know, he's he's a force and uh and and he's he's incredible, you know, and it's and the thing is, you know, I I have been fortunate to work with a few directors of his vintage and and you know, they they there's there's something really special about working with people that have been through you know, we're not talking ten thousand hours we're talking one hundred thousand hours, you know of you know,
understanding cinema language, understanding blocking and thinking about the same thing about and then doing it their way, you know, and they're not distracted about like, well this is how you you know, you need an over the shoulder and then you need a two shot and you should get the POV and you.
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Michael doesn't work that way. It's not you know, he's he's he's working in in his language exclusively and and that's that's really cool, you know, because a lot of filmmakers, especially younger ones, will turn to you and say, well, what do I need now? You know, how many shots
to tell this scene or whatever? And you can have your opinion, but uh, but you know, I think, uh, it's you know, as cinematographers, we're we're there to provide guidance and assistance and and and and interpret things visually contribute. But but you know, I think of all the directors that I admire, the ones who speak through the frame are are are my favorites? You know? The directors that really kind of are are you know, appreciate, you know,
approach it holistically. Are the ones that I respond to the best. And so so I'm I'm really cautious when I when I inject too much of my personal opinion, uh into a director's workflow if they haven't asked for it, you know.
If I may piggyback on your sausage analogy. Uh, the it's kind of like a great chef who has made the sausage a thousand times the way that it's in the textbook, and now they're just they're just kind of riffing. It's kind of like kind of jazz in a sense, and like, well, well, you really need to put the meat in the casing first. It's like, no, I'm going to put the casing in the middle. I'm going to wrap the sausage or the meat around it, and then I'm going to bred it, and then I'm going to
defron and then there's others. You're just approaching it in different ways, and everyone's like, oh wow. But he understands the basics of how to make or how to shoot a scene exactly how it's textbook supposed to be done. But because he has so much understanding of the medium of the language. Just like David. They could just riff and do whatever they're You don't need a two shot, you don't need a once. You can cut the whole damn thing on a long shot on one hundred mil
through a tree and it works. You know, you're like, oh, oh, but the in the textbooks, any film school teacher would go, don't do that. But they just understand that language. It's like a tarantino, Like they understand the film language so well that they just they riff. It's jazz. It's like watching the jazz play and you are one of the collaborators in the band working with a master jazz player.
It's kind of like, you know, if I may use jazz as analogy, you're there and you're just like watching, just going. I handed him the trumpet, but holy cow, I didn't know he was gonna do that with it.
Right right right right right, yeah, you know, I mean it's like, yeah, you know, I mean, if you're gonna run with you, allow me to run with that analogy a little bit. It's like, if you know, if we're playing jazz, then then then in that you know, in those situations, I'm really just trying to make sure everybody's in tune.
Oh great, and yeah, we just want to make.
Sure that where it's just trying to like, you know, it's like, okay, I get it now, we're going to go, oh we're going to D all right, cool, let's play
D artist. Well you're a little sharp, you know, like, let's just like just sort of attenuated a little bit enough, you know, I And you know, it's that's that's a wonderful thing about this job is watching how people make movies and learning how there are different types of movies, you know, different ways to maze movies, you know, and also learning about the kinds of movies that you want
to make, you know. I mean it's like every time I finish a film, I I think about the types of collaboratives I'm going to seek out too, you know, and the types of work I'm interested in doing the things I'm less interested in doing. And you know, I am definitely on one, you know. I I quite like the kind of surgical type of filmmaking. I like puzzle pieces of figuring out how to you know, you know,
like I you know, Hitchcock is like my filmmaker. You know, there's sort of like the puzzle of you know, show the person seeing something, that show the audience what they see. You know, even that you know it's a vast simplification of it, but you know, thinking about how to break a scene down into a spare bones and and tell the story that ways is is the type of filmmaking at the moment anyway that I'm interested in. But you know, it's like.
You got some good collaborators to do that kind of I mean David, for I mean, as you talk about puzzle piece directors, he is, He's definitely that guy, and Michael exactly the same. I mean, but David specifically, like he is. Look, I mean not to blow smoke up David's ask, but he is our Hitchcock. He is our Kubrick. There will never be anyone like Kubrick or Hitchcock. But in our generation there's very few filmmakers who are as
surgical as him. And then Michael has his. There's never gonna be another Michael Man, and people will be studying Michael Mann movies in film schools one hundred years from now. And same thing with David, you know, and and same thing with Tarantino and Nolan and some of these other greats there, there's a handful that are our generations Hitchcock's and our generations Kubricks that you just you sit back and you get you're lucky enough to get to work
with some of these guys. Man, I mean, you must smile every day going to work. I'd imagine most days.
Most mostly I'm worried about whether or not that conor got parked in the right place.
Is the techno creme here? Why is it the technology? Exactly?
Yeah, you know so, I mean you know it's like, go ahead.
No, no, if there's look, if you had a chance to go back and tell your younger self, who's just starting off in the business, one thing, what would that thing be?
It has nothing to do with the equipment. Oh great, thank you, I'm worrying about it.
Thank you. You mean to tell me I don't need the latest, I don't need to shoot twenty four K or forty eight K.
No. No, by And you're coming from and no.
But the thing is that you're coming from the perspective of one of the most technical directors and working with David who is he's always on the cutting edge with reds and and what you guys did with MANK and and even then you're saying, it's it's not always about the latest camera, the latest lens, or the latest lights.
No, I mean some some of the best thoughts we did in mank with it with a sixty wild light bulb, you know, I mean it's it's I mean, you know, it's sure. I mean technology helps you, you know, technology makes things easier, but it doesn't give you better taste. And it doesn't it doesn't give you better ideas, you know. And and when I was younger, if I had spent more time thinking about the ideas and less time thinking about the equipment, I would have had better ideas, you know.
And you know I got, you know, because you get seduced you know, you get seduced in films by you know, you read Americans for magazine, and I see your magazine and there are all the advertisements, and everyone's trying to sell you this and that, and and you start to think, oh, man, if I shoot three five milimeters on my film, my film will be better. You know, If I get an eighteen K then I'll be able, you know. And it's
you know, it's funny. It's like the longer I spend this business, you know, and the more I have to kind of repent for the the the requests I make to producers, the more I remind them that that the things I need are generally scheduled driven. They're not aesthetic, you know. You know, for example, if if if I you know, if I can shoot the establishing shot at at nine am, when it's backlit and it's beautiful and there's you know, missed in the air and stuff, I
don't need anything. I just need the camera. But if the actor is available till three p m, then I need all this stuff, you know, And and that's that's unfortunately the problem of the big movie. You know, the small movie is nimble enough to make that choice. Yeah, great, you need to shoot a nine am. Let's shoo at nine am. You know, let's figure that out, you know, on on a on a big Marvel production or or
or you know, a big war movie like Devotion. You know where you're sort of your balance saying, you know, you're balancing aircraft and you know when when when the when the ceiling is lifted so the planes can take
on off. Can't necessarily shoot it at six am when the light is perfect, you have to shoot at eleven or whatever you know, so you have to figure out how what you know, and the compromise has become about seeing that they picture and not being myopic around what is what is immediately important to the image versus what's important to the movie, you know, And and that's kind of I think ultimately the biggest lesson for me has been like learning to recognize how my needs impact the
rest of the film and how to best navigate it and sort of advocate for what I think is important without detracting from what's important for the film as a whole, you know. And I think a lot of youngertin photographers fall in this trap of like, no, no, no, it has I have to shoot anamorphic and it has to you know, and then you know, they spend four thousand dollars a week on lenses and then there's no money for costume.
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Know what I mean. And it's like, so it's it's you know, it's it's important to be thoughtful. I think about how how you how you absorbed the resources of the movie as a cinematographer, and how you how you advocate for the things you need.
Now, you brought up Devotion, which is your new movie, which another small independent film you've been doing. Can you can you tell everybody a little bit about the movie. And I mean it looks gorgeous, man, I saw the trailer for it. It absolutely looks stunning. Again, you get into play with some beautiful toys and a vintage piece. I mean, you can really get to have some fun. Man, You're
having some fun with some nice toys. And I know you, I know you had to suffer in Italy with Michael mann On on the latest film.
I'm sure.
I'm sure the food was horrible, the weather was bad. I mean, you're you're you're living a tough life, sir. But uh, but Devotion, tell me about devotion.
Devotion? You know, I got I got a phone call from a from a friend of mine, Bruce Franklin, who had been a first d D that I had worked with a lot with Joe Kazinski and and you know, old friend of mine, and he called me up one day. I was in Chicago doing the finale of Fargo, the TV show Fargo, and my phone rang and he said, Hey, I got this script you should read. I'm producing, and I said, I didn't know that he had started producing. And I said, okay, cool, Bruce, Yeah, I send it over.
And he sent me the script and I read it. I was like, oh my god, this is so great. You know, it was it was it's a war film, but it was really a drama in the under under the the guys of a war film and uh and it was period. And he's he you know, he said, look, I've got airplanes. We're going to shoot it for real. We're not going to do a bunch of visual effects. We're going to really have an area in it. They're going to go up and they're going to put these
planes in the air. We're going to choreograph this. And I think you're the guy to do it. I want you to get with the director. And I said, okay, cool, Uh yeah, get me on the phone. So we met. I met JD. Dillar the next day and we had you don't know, two and a half hour meeting and
we just talked about everything. We talked about the movie, we also talked about life, and we talked about cinema, and we talked about history and race and politics and you know, a lot of things that related to the movie, and a lot of things that didn't just because we became fast friends and and I, you know, I finished the zoom call and my phone rang and it was Bruce and he said, hey, do you want the job? Said, yeah,
of course I want the show. So we did it, and it was great because I had, you know, they had they knew that they had they had bitten off a big chunk, and they wanted to do it right. And the producers really, you know, wanted to support the film, and they were prepared to sort of support the film. So I had a lot of prep time, and I sat with Jad and we you know, we we sat in la and we storyboarded and you know, brainstormed ideas about how we could approach and what worked and what didn't.
We talk to people, you know, the guys that had done done Kirk and the guys that had done Midway, and we you know, we sort of just did our research and we looked at stuff we liked and stuff we didn't like. And and then you know, when Thomas production design that joined the movie, and then the three of us would sit down and talk about different ways to call you know, how much of the aircraft carrier to build and you know, how are we going to shoot the buck stuff? And what can we do for real?
And you know, then Kevin LaRosa and Mike fitz Maurice joined the party and they were there are our aerial unit. Mike fitz Maurice's Ariel DP and Kevin the aerial coordinator kind of second unit director, aerial director anyway, got involved and that was like a whole new world open up to me. And I, you know, I hadn't I had shots and aarials, but mostly like helicopter establishing shots, very simple things, you know, And and they had a whole differ a set of tools available to them that they
started to explain to us what they could do. And we started to you know, hold little model planes up in the air and storyboard and shoot you know, kind of low fi previous videos and talk about how those sequences were going to work together. And you know, it was great. We had an incredible experience making that movie.
It was you know, it was a lot of people that really really cared about it and wanted the support JD and the project, and we're excited and we had producers that were just incredibly supportive through the whole process and really wanted us to succeed, and we're willing to listen to an outlook that maybe otherwise would have been expensive.
You know, there was certainly plenty of visual effects of the leaching store problems that that would have saved them a lot of money, but I think would have would have been detrimental to the film. And and you know that fortunately for us, they agreed and they were willing to go down the road with us and try to figure out ways to do a lot of it for real. On that you know that I think in the end paid dividends. So you know, I'm really thankful to them
that they we're forward thinking in that way. You know, I guess maybe it's backward thinking because that's how it would have been done seventy five years ago.
So so they pulled like a top gun Maverick. They're like, no, no, we're going to put the we're going to put the planes in the air, and we're going.
To shoot this.
Do you see a movement because you're working in the big in the studio projects like that, do you see a movement or almost a slight backlash against so much visual effects, so heavy visual effects and they're like, no, let's get it for real, because I mean even Nolan on on Dark Night when he flipped that eighteen wheeler, he did it for real, you know, and you can
tell and you can sense it. There's something organic on screen that when you're able to do things real you I mean, I think that's one of the main reasons Top Gun Maverick was such a massive hit, among other reasons, but just something we just haven't seen before. You don't see that in today's world. So I'm assuming that, yeah, you know, what you're doing, what you guys did in Devotion is going to be you know, similar in the
sense that you did it. But do you feel that as a cinematographer that there that there's a movement towards like, let's get to see if we could do this for real, back back the way it was done even twenty years ago.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, you know, it's like, look, Richard Donner did it, you know. I mean, I think it's I I think, you know, I mean, I yeah, look, the audience knows we can do anything, you know. I mean, the audience seeing Guardians of the Galaxy, you know, no disrespect the Guardians of the but they know that, you know, they know we can take them base, they know we can put you on an alien planet. We know we can you know, fly to the center of the Earth.
So it's it's not you know that it's it. It used to be the David Copperfield event magic show. You know, that's what the audience would go to the theater for. Right, they go for the spectacle, And now I think the audience goes for the car, the slight of hand card trick. You know, they want to they want to feel it. They they would prefer to they would prefer to not even notice that it's happening instead of seeing this kind of all the razzle dazzle on screen. That's my opinion anyway.
But so I I think, I think when you can do it for real, and you can do it for real with with the assistance of visual effects, maybe you know, you clean up the you clean up the stick that's holding the camera on the plane, it's different than making a plane, you know what I mean. And it looks
different and it and it feels it feels different. And and I also think in some ways it forces filmmakers that that mode of thinking and and and look there's there's plenty of visual effects and devotion, but but we set some rules for ourselves and say, okay, well we're gonna put the camera. We're only we're only gonna put the camera in places where we could put a camera
on a real aircraft. So we're not going to you know, we're not going to put the camera the plane in front of a blue screen and fly around, fly the camera around it on a techno crane and give you all these crazy shops and go, you know, go through the landing gear and up over the flaps, and you know, we're not going to do that stuff. We're going to do We're going to do things that you could really do basically, that you know that apply to physics to some degree. And and I think you're going to see
more more of that. And I think actually, you know, Tom Cruise deserves a tremendous amount of credit for as someone who is is promoting the idea and saying, hey, look, you know, cinema is important and it's worth protecting, and it's a national treasure and we have to and we have to you know, the audience deserves something better than than then, you know, pre visiting the virtual camera through
you know, through the wormhole or whatever. You know. I mean, it's there's there's it has to be story forward and thoughtful and considerate and respectful to the audience, you know.
And and again there is I mean, Pandora is not going to be shot practically, you know, that's not a practical You can't go to fly to Pandora and shoot those things practically. So there is a place for that kind of storytelling. You know, when you go into the quantum Relemant man probably not going to build a set or a miniature for that. It's gonna right, But if it's something that can be ext it's something that can be done, it should try to be done, especially at that budget level.
Yeah, yeah, I think so. And you know I think also, you know, with all due respect to to other filmmakers, it's it when you do it. If you do it digitally, you can make it up later. If you do it for real, you have to decide in advance.
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And that's intimidating to some people. You know, you have
practical considerations you have to think about. You know, if you're if you're Dick Donner and you're gonna you know, you're going to drop the drop the gasoline truck, you know, for real, with a real pyrotechnic explosion, you have to be considered of how big the explosion is going to be, and how far the camera is going to be, and what the you know, what the location considerations are, and you have to plan it and you have to go text out and you have to say, Okay, we're gonna
put the camera here, and put the camera here, and put the camera here, and that we're going to suspend it from a truck or we're gonna drop them and there's gonna explode them. There's going to be four days of clean up, and we're going to pay off all the local businesses. And it's you know, like that, it requires advanced thought in the way that doing the gasoline truck. You know, shooting a plate doesn't right, but there's obvious
significant advantages to doing it for real. It's just more different and it requires, you know, sort of consider It requires directing to some degree, you know, can I so, I you know, I support that idea. I just I just wish more people did it, and I wish and it's part of why I like working with older directors because they understand that and they they advocate for it, you know what I mean. They don't go for the easy solution because it helps the location department and they
don't have to pay off that business or whatever. I mean, No, no, no, we're going to drop the truck for real and we're going to blow it up. You know.
Can I I have to tell Can I tell you a story really quickly because it's this is going to exactly what we're talking about. I had Simon West on the show, who was a legendary action director, and he was telling me how he did the con Air gag when the plane crashed into Vegas and they found a hotel that was going to be demolished, and like, hold on, can we run a plane into the front for our movie? And they said yes, and there was it shut down
Vegas for a minute. But the thing was, and this goes to your point of like you have to plan ahead. He had six cameras on that on that shot, it was a one take you had. There was one take. Someone said something over the over the the walkies the cameras start. They just took off. But none of the cameras were rolling. First A d was like, oh crap, oh crap, yeah, to turn it on, turn it on, So like to turn it on, we're going, We're going,
and everyone's like freaking out. And then he's like, I had six, but then two four of them didn't work, so I had two. And then we're like okay, and like he told the whole stories, like three when three didn't make it, there's all film, by the way, and then the two made it. And then at the end we only really one was out of focus because it's the first day. D oh, that's right. The crews couldn't.
The crews were eating a crafty and they everything we was going, so the cameras were going and they had to run to turn them on. Wow, oh my god. So the end they had one shot, one take on one angle and that's the angle that got He's like, I can't go back and shoot it again. This is why you had six. If I would add five, we would have been in trouble. But it's a different way of knowing about it.
It is it is, it is, you know, and I think I think it's in the sense if filmmaking has been made it's it's easier now, you know, it's a lot easier. I mean, you know, when I was growing up and I was you know, I came out of film school with one film, you know, and it was like I had, you know, and it was it had been transferred to Beta SP and I had a VHS tape and I would go and show it to people and hand them the VHS tape and look at my movie, is ntsc you know? I had a let a box
on it at great quality, you know, yeah, exactly. And then you know, if I wanted to make more copies, I had to go find a place that had had an SP deck because I couldn't dupe the VHS, you know. And it's just like long before TVD. And you know, kids come out of film school now and they have like six movies that have all been made you know, on a red camera or you know, on the Lexo or something, and god, I mean I would have been, oh, what a privilege, you know, what a tremendous privilege to have.
And you know, so that that and I think that extends outward into cinema. So you know, so when people are like, oh, I don't have any opportunities. I'm not that empathetic, you know.
I'll listen. I mean, I spent fifty grand on my first demo reel for as a commercial director, shooting on thirty five because you had to shoot thirty five and I would make beta sp masters and then I would convert them to three quarter inch. And that's when I've been send out to the agencies because VHS that's that
was for amateurs. So then it was the cost and I had to make with the big clam cases and I'd had the FedEx them all over the place, and and it was like and now they're like, oh, yeah, I shot this thing on an iPhone And I'm like you sounds a bit.
Like yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you know, there was no video when I.
Was you know, when I just came out, there was no internet sort of, let's just go there was no internet. There's definitely no video. There was no video online, especially when I came out. Yeah, not that good video at least. Now, when does the Votion come out? Say that again, when does the Votion come out?
Uh? November twenty fourth, right, so just.
For the holidays, And it seems like a it seems like cinematic experience. You got to go see it in the movies.
I I hope everyone does. Yeah, we did it. There's an Imax release. If you have an Imax theater near you, you can see it. That's exciting. It's the first film I'm done it's been Imax and yeah, I think it's you know it's It's certainly a story and a film that deserves to be seen day. It was intended to be seen big. You know, we shot up to be seen big.
Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions, ask all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today.
Everybody's going to tell you now and that your work isn't any good and you can't do it, and you got to ignore them fair enough?
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or.
In life, that that there's always another job. But but you have to uh, there's there's always another job, and the time off is is more important than the time at work. So you've got to prioritize. You have to you have to prioritize your time off with the people that you love. That's that's that's the thing. That's that's most important. I think.
And as I've talked to a lot of dps in my day and worked with the like, dude, the divorce rate is pretty high. I mean, it's not it's no joke. It's no joke. Especially when you become successful as a DP, the balance is really difficult. It's difficult to do. So that's something they don't tell you when you start walking down this path.
No, they don't, But that was really I mean, look, you know, I I think I spent twenty eight days in my bed last year, you know. I mean, it's it's, it's it's challenging. You know. I spend a lot of time in hotels, a lot of traveling, and it's a lot to ask if your loved ones and your family and it's, yeah, you know, it's they don't. You're right. They don't teach you that in film school and they should.
And you know, when I speak to students or whatever, I try to I try to say, listen, you know, if you want to get in this, make sure that you're ready for that, you know, because it's it's, it's it can be quite quite challenging.
For sure, it's the Carnee life, sir. We are just carnies and putting up tents, putting on shows and taking the tent down, getting everything on the train and going to the next location setting up shop again. We're cardials at the end of the day. Now and last question, three of your favorite films of all time?
Oh god, how much time do you have? That's a long list.
Just three, just three of your three of your favorite films that come up in your mind today?
Oh my god. I mean, I you know, if people ask me that question all the time, I think Chinatown's way up there. Close Encounters, mm hmmm. Probably. God. Now you're now you're gonna make me pick a number three. You know, I should pick a I should pick a foreign film because it's underrepresented in the list fair enough enough, and my colleagues will judge me. But I'm not going to do that. I mean, I think Raiders Lust Start probably.
I mean, it's just it's like those I just think about the movies that I They are the movies I admire and I respond to creatively, and then they are the movies that I have seen a hundred times, and that is one of them. Is It's like one of those movies that I've just probably I've probably seen it one hundred and fifty times, yea.
And they move and they moved the medium forward. All three of those movies moved the medium forward in one way, shape or form. And Steven for sure, And I can't even start talking about Steven. I mean, Jesus, I mean, I've had so many people on the show who've worked with Steven, and I just yeah, I'm not going to gush over Stephen, but yeah, but brother man, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing your sharing
your experiences with us. And I can't wait to see Devotion and I hope everybody goes out in the theater and actually sees it it's in a theater just like they did Top Gun Maverick and enjoy the real life spectacle that you kind of put together. Brothers. So I really appreciate your time in and continue doing some great where. I can't wait to see Ferrari and Killer That those two another two films. I mean again, you're you're doing okay for yourself right now, sir.
Thanks Al Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying one day at a.
Time, you know, a pleasure, brother, thanks appreciate it.
Thanks so much, man cheerus.
I want to thank Eric so much for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you again so much. Eric. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch his new film Devotion, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three ninety one. Thank you so much for listening, guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.