You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three sixty six. Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. George Bernard Shaw broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next
draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is
sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on
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Now. John is a very interesting filmmaker because not only is he an award winning filmmaker, he's also the co founder of the Slam Dance Film Festival and the author of the book Filmmaking for Change. Now. This episode was recorded prior to COVID and prior to the protest movement and Black Lives Matter and everything that's going on in the world. But man, when I went back to listen to it to get it ready for this episode, I could not believe
how timely this episode is. So we talk about how to make social change with your filmmaking, and I think it's more important than ever before that you make a change in the world with your art, and this episode and this conversation will help you get on that path. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with John Fitzgerald. I like to welcome the show John Fitzgerald, Man, thank you so much for being on the show.
My friend. Absolutely happy to be here. Thank you man. And like I'll be saying off air, your book makes a cameo in my film On the Corner of Ego and Desire. When we're in the bookstore, we pan across it. It's the first book that's in and it's not a quick pan there's it's a moment you read the title. So I wanted to give you a shout out for the book. I love that. I love that.
So before we get started with the reason It's here movie, Yeah, exactly, now, real quick, before we get started, how did you get
into the business. I have a film degree from UCSB and broke into the training program at William Morris and back then it was actually Triad, but it was it was acquired, and did the development thing a while, socking away my per diem working on a script that I'd started in film school and eventually raised the funds to shoot it, and like everyone else, really wanted to premiere it at Sundance, but it wasn't to be, fortunately for me.
I had met a couple other filmmakers at the IFFM in New York that year and they didn't get in either, and so we all banded together and started slam Dance. So I kind of by accident, became a festival director. We all did it together the first year as co founders, and then I became the director for year two and three and brought in Peter Baxter was one of the producers of a film in the first year. He came on as a Crave director, and then I moved on to take over as AFI Fest
director, and then Peter took over slam Dance. So that's the short version of how I got into this indie film space. And Dan has been on the show. Dan Marvish has been on the show multiple times, and he also makes a cameo himself, true filmmaker. Oh man, he hustles man like there's no tomorrow, and he actually makes a cameo in the movie. And his book makes a cameo in the movie as well. So I tried to bring as many people as I could. He's great and he you know,
I have to give him a lot of kudos. He's the one that you know, wrote the first press release that was in Variety, and he was he was a big help and he's a great guy. Now, you wrote a book called Filmmaking for Change. Now I wanted to ask you what
the book is about and why did you write it. Sure, well, having done film festivals for a number of years again, you know, as a festival director essentially curating movies, I found myself on a panel with Michael Weasy and we're walking back to the hotel and I said, hey, I've become more interested in what I call social impact movies and I'm wondering, you know, why you guys don't have a book on this subject. What would
it take to make that happen? And he said, well, send me an outline in the first chapter and you know, if it makes sense, we'll do it. So that's kind of where it started. And it's true I had become much more interested in documentary and even narrative that you know,
we're movies with some social relevance. And so I did that book and really was thinking along the lines with with with some of their other books, that this could be something that was taught in film schools to really help filmmakers learn how to take ideas and make documentary, but not just talking heads documentary, but how do you how do you take a core of an idea and and
sort of break it down into a narrative structure. And I used some other Michael Weasy books, the Hero's Journey for example, Joseph Campbell's Heroes Journey in the Twelve Stages. I'm sure you're familiar with that, And so that was kind of the anchor for the book. And how to have you know, development and production and then distribution, and how you could take all these pieces
and think of these movie these as more narrative stories. And then I made a handful of documentaries along the way that I could kind of reference in the book as examples. Now, documentaries are an easy, an easy play for social impact. They're kind of, you know, if done correctly, they're kind of built to do that. Where I find it a little bit more
complicated is in the narrative space. Do you have any tips or suggestions and also examples of narrative films that have really hit us, has created social impact besides coming to America. Of course. Well it's funny you say that because you know, when I was writing the book, obviously I had to do a lot of research to give it some context. And what you really learn when you kind of take a deeper dive is that a lot of movies over
the years have been social impact movies. You're just not labeled that way. And you think you even think about you know, Schindler's List of you know, you think of Green Book. Yeah right. I mean, if you
look at the Oscars the last few years, it's spotlight. You think of a lot of big narratives that actually have something to say, And so I think it's it's not something that audiences are necessarily looking out for consciously, but I think because there's so much wackiness going on in the world, I think that one of the reasons why we're seeing a kind of a spike in documentary and even social impact narrative is that people are more interested in learning now about
the world around them and different cultures and getting to the crux of some of these big issues. Now, how do you dance though the line between preaching and entertaining, because if you start preaching, people tune off. Even in documentaries to a certain extent, I'm a huge fan of documentary, and you know, the whole plant based food movement was started with documentary basically with four Knives. Yeah, I'm sorry, Work's over Knives is in my book as
a case study. Yeah, fork overen knives, food matters, all those kind of what the health and conspiracy and all these other ones. So they're very powerful. And even back in the day with Roger and me, uh with with Michael Moore and his social impacts with his documentaries. Yeah, but how do you dance the line between preaching and entertaining. I honestly think it's it's it's a combination of different factors that don't necessarily apply into each project.
I think each kind of has their own, their own anchor. Obviously, with More you've got you've got a charismatic figure who you you kind of want to watch because he's so crazy. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. But there, there's there's other there's other documentaries where the filmmaking style is really interesting. You know, you
think about life itself. Right, the documentary made a few years ago and they used animation and this this this you know, this guy had had grown up with with you know, a disorder essentially and and connected it back to Disney movies and and so I think it's really a question of what your style and your structure is and and if you can somehow weave in a narrative ooh, I mean there there is a reason why, you know, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end to most of the bigger, more
popular stories, whether it's whether it's a book or a movie. So so I think that's the key, and I think, you know, filmmakers are getting it. And and that's why if you look back, and to some extent we could thank Netflix, they've they've really you know, busted open the doors for documentary in the last few years, I think, with such a deep library and of course HBO, so they're out there and there's a reason why people are paying attention now. And I think it's because these stories are
told in such an interesting way. The one thing I found interesting about your book and what you're trying to say with it is that it does really fall into the concept that I've kind of been preaching about profusely over the last six months or longer. Is this whole concept of being a film entrepreneur being an entrepreneurial filmmaker and finding a niche and then feeding that niche, providing service to
that niche. Impact social impact movies are literally that. I mean, unless it's a very broad like you know, racism or the Holocaust or even that, those are still niches of the larger society. They're kind of pre built for that. Do you have any tips on how because I know, when you're making a social impact film, money might not be a specific goal, but if you're raising money for a cause, for a foundation, then generating revenue is as important as if it was going into your own pocket, even
more so then at that point. So still revenue generation is still extremely important for filmmakers, even doing social impact movies. So do you have any recommendations in regards to what you've seen over the years. Yeah, it's a great point, and I love the idea of your book, By the way, and I've consulted for a number of years helping filmmakers kind of figure out their
marketing and distribution strategy. And one of the things that I've been saying a lot in the last few years is you really have to think of your movie as a brand, and you have to think about it as a product and not just find a distributor, stick it on that shelf and you see how many people might find it. You do have to do all the things that I'm sure you cover in your book in terms of social impact. What's interesting
is you need to have a call to action. And when I talked to filmmakers about this, it kind of all starts with the goal and then you back into the process from there, and each film kind of has its own goal, right because a film about homelessness is not necessarily going to have the same goal as a film about the environment. You look at a movie like
Racing Extinction. You know, they created an amazing campaign and I don't know if you had a chance to check it out, but the new book, the second edition, has a whole new section which is called activation to your point, which is, you know, how can you take this idea that was built with a mission in mind and put it in motion? And I think what Racing Extinction did which was brilliant, is that they took this concept of climate change and you know, they put different challenges in there. We
call to actions. Did you know that animal agricultures responsible for fourteen zero point five percent of global emissions, I mean, and then they talk about the fisheries. Did you know that ninety percent of the fisheries are over fished. So they talk about these issues and then they follow up with questions and solutions and what you can do as a person to make your contribution. And I think part of the problem is that people get overwhelmed with the idea that oh
my god, there's so many problems. How can little o me make a difference, you know, And I think it does have to start with us, and we have to just know that every little bit counts. Yeah, there's I'm thinking of a movie camps like Boys Don't Cry, which obviously touched upon at the time. Really you know that, you know, LGBQ rights, which was something that was not even discussed when that movie came out.
Really it was kind of like one of those films, and it could have been at the end like hey, if you know, somebody put on go to this website, sign up and get help or whatever that might be, or you know, get assistance or whatever. There is there's always an ability, and I think the filmmaker just really needs to be very clear about what
their endgame is. I've even seen big movies who that touch like I mean obviously Schindler's List, you know, with the social or social project that that he that Spielberg created, which was, you know, to record every Holocaust survivor in an art chive, you know, and he used Shindler's List as a catalyst for that as an educational tool. I think that you're right that
filmmakers really need to be very clear about what their endgame is. Uh. And also I was going to ask you how can filmmakers, depending on the social impact they're trying to make and the niche that they're trying to do, how could they or should they team up with organizations in that niche to get
the word out in ways that you can't. And also as a basically free marketing, because if you're making a film about the environment, let's say, or specific something even more niche than that, and there's an organization about that, they have on thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people on an email list, and they can market your film for free. Essentially. Do you agree with that? Absolutely? You just hit it right on
the head. I mean, with virtually all of these what I call cause cinema movies. You know, these are projects that have not for profits. Depending on the category, whether it's the oceans, or homelessness or education, veterans, you name it, all of them have organizations to support this effort. And it is in a way almost a sponsorship or a partnership agreement that
is developed between filmmaking team and and you know company. Really it's going to them and saying, look, I've got this content and it supports you your mission. How can we help each other? How can you get our message out to your audience base. Maybe it's giving you some content for your website depending on what their forum is. But it really does come down to understanding after you get past, you know, underneath the layer of the goal,
it's what your what's your distribution plan? Are you? Are you interested in playing on Netflix or HBO? And what if they don't want you? You know, are you are you going to play in schools? Are you going to play in high schools? Are you going to play in colleges? What is your what is your action campaign that supports the screening? Are you going to have bumper stickers? Are you going to have T shirts? What is your call to action? And I think once you back into what your distribution
model is. I did a movie a few years ago called The Milky Way, and it's about breastfeeding in America, nice and kind of restoring the nursing phenomena in it. It will blow your mind just how bad America is at this. This really kids, I trust me, you know I did so. I was psychotic than my kids were in my wife's belly. I was just like, I did so much research. I watched so many documentaries.
It was like, maybe you're breastfeeding and she's like, I know, and don't tell me what to do. What's crazy, though, is that a lot of people just assume that, you know, for me, it's about the nutrition factor or whatever, but they don't. They don't realize it's the skin to skin and anyway I know about I know more about that now than my wife did when she was breast But the point is is that these filmmakers
weren't making it to make money. They yes, they were on Netflix, yes they got the exposure, but it was more about how do we do a screening campaign that will give mothers an opportunity to see this movie and who are the right partners to do that so with that particular film, speaking of Tug, Unfortunately, we did a campaign with Tug, and frankly, these filmmakers did not set the bar super high in terms of how many people had
to see the movie to trigger to the screening. They were thinking, look, if they're fifteen to twenty moms in that theater, we're good that we help, we're in So they didn't do it for money, and it's it's a wonderful thing to see when you see the emails plotting into babies. They're both they're both essentially nurses. To see the impact they're having, and that is a perfect example of a social impact film that we created. With the beginning, middle, and end. It has a story, there's the good
guys and the bad guys. There's some animation, and it's an interesting it's an interesting story, but it does make a difference. And they knew that it wasn't about how much money they were going to make. It was about connecting to these groups. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show and having their Facebook and their Instagram and all these social media platforms and websites in that nursing category. That could do
outreach for them because because audiences want to know about this subject. So let's since you've touched upon it, I want to talk a little bit about distribution, and that is it's a dirty word, uh in many ways and has become a dirty we at the end of the day, it's always wow, it's it's and people think it's, oh no, everything's so much you know, easier, or it's more controlled. They're rules. There's absolutely no rules.
It's worse than ever. And I've literally I actually had conversations uh today
actually with filmmakers who are going through this whole Tug situation. If if and if anyone listening has not listened to episode three seventy three, where I, you know, break the story in regards to what happened with TUG and what TUG was and everything, but that that there was documentaries who had educational series and educational content that was licensed by TUG, and now they're they're going to lose eight to ten grand and they're like, that's you know, plus all
the all the exposure for the cause and everything. It's brutal out there. So it's brutal out there for filmmakers as a general statement. But it's even I think it's even a little bit more heartbreaking when you're when you're doing this for almost a nonprofit and there are nonprofit filmmakers out there that just want the cause to get out there, and they still get screwed and in the in the films get screwed. I mean, you're you're in that, You're in
this space. You're definitely in the space of distribution as well. So I'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas about what can be done, what you look out for. Uh. And we touched a little bit about the entrepreneurial filmmaking model, which I do believe is the future or a hybrid version of that. But what's your what's your take on it? Well, I I I think I tend to try and look at things like a little bit more
of the silver lining side. I do think that it is it is really disturbing when you hear about to Stripper and Tug and these these these companies that were doing so well for filmmakers that you know, shut down. I will also say though, that that by having so many new streaming channels and frankly channels that that aren't necessarily curating there isn't as difficult of a barrier as there
as there was some time ago. I mean, clearly, if you don't have a relationship with iTunes, you don't have a relationship with Netflix or HBO, it's going to be hard for you to get get traction there. So I do think it's a challenge. I think to your earlier point, I do think filmmakers have to be entrepreneurial now now more than they used to be. It wasn't just I'm a visionary and I'm going to create an idea and then give it to a al's agent who's going to rip me off and try
and sell it. You have to be able to get creative on your own. But I do think there are a lot of opportunities out there. You still have to do your homework, You have to know who the right players are, and you still, I believe you know, some of these content careers are creating channels for themselves, right. Roku has over two thousand channels now, right, and there's going to be some consolidation, of course, But there's a lot of opportunity out there. You just got to do your
homework. Yeah, I mean, I even have my own streaming service, you know, so that's dedicated to filmmakers. So I mean a lot of people have streaming services, and you know, I think the future is curation. I mean, you can't like, I agree, I just I can't compete with Netflix. Not many people can. Amazon can't compete with Netflix, so let alone me. So there, the broad spectrum channels I think will start to just die off because they won't be able to be sustained. Their
funding will finally crap out and they'll and they'll close. And I've seen that already happening. But I feel that the niche, the niche or curated channels are going to be able to survive because people will want you know, if you're into documentaries, curiosity stream is a pretty good deal. I just I just signed up for twelve bucks for the year. I'm like, okay, it was a quick like end of the year of a Black Friday sale. I was like, yeah, sure, I might, yea, why not?
You know, so that makes sense, And I think you're right. There's just so much more homework that filmaking. There's a lot out there. There's a lot out there, and I do agree there's gonna be some consolidation for sure that there won't be two thousand channels in five years. But the point is, do your homework and see which of these channels have your niche, you know. And I do think that there is something to be said
for curation, especially if you're focusing on a specific category. I think, you know, throwing as many ideas against the wall and just hoping a channel that has seventeen genres is going to promote your title, that's that's a bit more of a challenge. But I do think especially for docs and some very specific like sci fi very hot, right, So I think if you if you, if you're in a certain category and you do your homework and you
can find a home, you have a chance to succeed there. And if and and I still think having a website and having fans and creating community as you know, I mean, those are those are the audiences that would come and see your next movie. So I still think you don't want to just give it up and wait for the checks to roll in. You gotta you gotta, you gotta keep hustling. Yeah, when you're preaching to the choir on that one. But but I see it too that the distributors you know
when I was at AFM this year, Uh, they're they're scared. They don't know what to do. I mean, all their golden calves are gone, so they I asked, I literally asked a distribution company who was in a meeting with me. I go, you guys really have no idea how you're gonna make money this year? Are you the Like, We're just gonna throw up things as many things up against the wall as we can and see what sticks and things are. And the wall is moving and the things you're
throwing up against the wall are moving. So it's a constant game of musical chairs, and nobody really knows what's going on. So that's kind of why I always again talking about entrepreneurial is the exploitation of the movie is one revenue stream, while you should be creating multiple other revenue streams from other products and or services like food, like I mean, fork over knives. I mean
those guys. I have them in my books as a case study as well, because they were really food matters, fat, sick, and nearly dead. Even even Kung Fury, Kung Fury, that little short film. I remember that that guy, he you know, the niche of eighties action movies. I wouldn't say that's a social impact film, but depending how you look at it. Okay, I worked on a really bad Stephen Sigau movie. You mean so pretty much almost all of them except for the first maybe three
or four. Yeah, well, on Deadly Ground, I have to say I like it. Oh wait, on denund is that the one is that the oil one? No, Actually, on Deadly Ground is the one that I worked on. Okay, horrible, it's a horrible movie. It's the one with Michael Kaine right under Siege I think was the first one right that he was actually decent at. So arguably this is my time of life.
So I worked in a video store during this time. So this is there's a like I've said before on the show, there's a window of time that I will challenge anybody to a trivial situation. So from from eighty seven to ninety three, I pretty much watched everything that was put out. So during that time there was above the law, hard to kill, mark for death, out for justice, and then under Siege showed up. I would argunder
Siege in the middle Pack. Yeah, so under Siege, I would argue is probably his best and was his biggest hit, and it was a Warner Brothers release, Above the Law not bad. I have a small a good place for me in a Heart to Kill, But I didn remember he did on Deadly Ground if that's if I'm not mistaken, that's the oil one in Alaska with Michael Caine, and he directed to see McGinley, Billy Thornton. It was. It was an awesome cast, but he directed, he directed
it. He was so drunk on his own power. I could only imagine what that was like, but he was. But it was a social podcast of what not to do in studio production that that movie would check all the box. But that was but that was a movie, if I remember correctly, that was a social impact movie. He was trying to say something about American m was American, Indian and oil and Theano Alaska. It was Alaska, so it was so it was like the Natives of Alaska and all this.
So it really was a bit preachy, if I remember correct. It was like a bit preaching. It was bad. It was just bad cinema. It started to it started to take good about it was it. It puts the money in the pocket that I could get closer to making my independent film. That was the kind of help me get the slammed in. That's the that's the way to look at it, an absolutely wonderful way to look at it. My friend, I have to say, now, do you
have any tips for finding funding for these social impact films? Because when you're doing a social impact film, funding opportunities are more relative than the action movie starring Eric Roberts and Michael Madson. So you have places you could go to get that. Do you have any tips for that for your listeners. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
show. Well, you know, I I do. I do cover that a little bit in the book, and I and I have a list of of of organizations and it really just depends kind of on how much you're looking for. There's probably half a dozen or so, and I know seeden Spark has has a lot of information about that fledgling. You can you can go to the doc the I d A website see a really long list of organizations
that support docs, a lot of grants. What what's also interesting is that is the crowdfunding campaign has kind of shifted to equity crowdfunding and and so now you can get a you can get a piece of the movie instead of just you know, a T shirt. So so I do think there are a lot of opportunities and and and as as we both know, you can you can make these movies for next to nothing. So just a question of how
creative, how creative you can be. But the other thing I'll just add is there are companies like Creative Visions right that that really support as a fiscal partner and with a lot of tools and outreach and a lot of examples, and they have talks and they bring filmmakers in and they really support this social impact space with a lot of information and resources that are hard to find in
one in one shop. So that's another organization to know about. And I think moving forward, there has been definitely an uptick in social impact cinema over the last twenty years. I mean just from the moment where I was talking that little magical moment when I worked at a video store that you know from there, I don't remember seeing many. You know, it was the eighties, so it was a little different, but there wasn't a lot of social
impact films. But they have becoming more and more and more and more, God, I can't believe inconvenient inconvenient truth. Yeah, that launched an entire conversation. I talked about that a lot in my book. Oh that's it, That's what triggered me. It was such a great It was such a great It's such a powerful use of the medium. I mean what they were able to do. And I actually taught trailer editing in colleges and classes,
and I bring out the Inconvenient Truth trailer. That trailer was so well edited and it was so powerful, and it's Al Gore in doing a slight show, the slide show like they made the movie they made Al Gore kind of cool. It was kind of weird watching that. And then you watch a movie like Supersize Me, which completely started a conversation, a global conversation about obesity and about food and about so much so that the multi billion dollar company
stopped supersizing it was. That's amazing. It was amazing. So these films do do hit and the in the just hyper sensitive times that we live and where any little thing offends. The corporations are so sensitive to this. So if can you imagine if Supersized Me showed up today? Oh my Oh my, could you imagine because that was like pre was that pre that wasn't pre internet, but it was like early it was really when did that come out? Like that was the nineties? It was, Yeah, it's more than
it was more than ten years ago. No, it's it's definitely the nineties, if I'm not mistaken. But late nineties when when that came out? So late nineties or early two thousands, but it was like pre Facebook, free, pre insane social media. I know you're looking it up. Go ahead, go look it up because it's going to try and find it while
you're talking. But yeah, but so the I think that there is an uptick, and I think it's a very powerful way for a filmmaker to make a difference in the world and also, uh, change minds and and help people with with this because we have were working arguably the most powerful media in the world as far as cinema television content, like the video content. You know, you can watch a movie and your life changes, like you make
a difference, you know. Yeah, and and it yeah, so two thousand and four, by the way, okay, good, and I wasn't too far off, not too far. But the thing is these movies are are are movies that you you start a dialogue with somebody that may not know anything about it. Right. You see something, it's like hearing a new song. You want to tell your friend about that new song. You see one of these movies and it strikes you somehow, it makes you want to
talk about it and share the information. And one of the things that I think is the next wave. I started this a bit with Cause Cinema, and then I got sidetracked with these other ideas, but is I believe there needs to be a more concentrated approach at connecting the cause to the movie and so that if you see the movie, when you finish the movie, you're actually on a landing page that tells you more about the causes if you want
to get involved or make a donation or read more about it. That's something that hasn't really happened yet. And I think, you know, Participant Media was was the was the likely candidate to assume that role, and they did a lot with their digital and then they shut it down. So somebody needs to do that, and in a big way, because what you don't want to do is see one of these movies that can really make a difference and
then kind of go out to dinner and forget about it. Right, you want to be able to make a difference and and and that's why calls to action are so important. Yeah. I just saw the film Game Changers, which was I just read that was the biggest documentary in iTunes history within two weeks, which about vegan athletes. And I've had so many people publicly now come out, like Dolph Lungren and Iron Rob, Donny Junior and all these
people that watched the documentary. They're just like, yeah, I'm changing. I'm not trying to preach your guys, eat your meat. It's up to you. But I'm just I'm just using it as an example of a film that's had immense impact. I mean, I haven't seen impact in that space as much probably since either What the Health or fork Over n Over Knives they were the first. Wasn't Fork over Knives the first Forks over Knives? Well, I think Food Matters might have come around first, but I think Forks
over Knives is the one that really busted it open. And they were smart talking about your film entrepreneurs. You know, they had they had a companion piece, they had a magazine, they had a website. I mean, they've created a whole franchise around this. But but I think I think that you know Louis who also did the cove right Yes, and Racing Extinctions, So he knows what he's doing. He's got an oscar and he knows how to make a difference. And I think with with that movie came out of
Sundance last year, right, I didn't see it. Their Team Changers, So yeah, it's going to have an impact for sure. And and more importantly, back to your other comment about distribution, it doesn't really help if
you have a message and nobody sees it. Right, you got to you got to find your audience and and not everybody's going to have the luck of an acquisition out of sun Dance and and an iTunes yeah iTunes deal, and also having James Cameron, ar Schwarzenegger and Jackie chann as your executive producers. Like that doesn't hurt, doesn't didn't hurt in the least. Uh De Man, I want to I wanted to thank you again for being on the show.
I'm going to ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today, I think I think mentorship is key. Uh, find people that are doing what you want to be doing and reach out to them because most of them are willing to help. And and if you know what genre you want to be in, try and find somebody that's making projects in that genre.
I think one of the other one of the other challenges is some people think they want to make movies, but it turns out they don't want to make movies. You just want to be connected to the movie business. So I think, you know, part of the challenge is to figure out which part of the iss you want to be in, right and and then figure out who can mentor you and give you advice on on on the best path to
reach that goal. So, so you need to tell me there's people in the business who just want to be famous and don't really care about the work. Stop at john Stop. Yeah, Next, you're going to tell me distributors are you know a lot of distributors are predatory? Like what do you what are you even saying? What is? It's up as down down as up? Cats and dogs living together masssterio That the key is get into a training program and and be willing to do internships because a lot of those internships
lead to full time gigs. Yeah, and if not, it starts a sponge, and if not, you start building that rhinoceros skin that you need that you need to build up in this business. Without question, that's right now. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life. I think the lesson that I learned over time in the film business was I kind of believe that if you did something and you did it really, really well, that you you'd be able
to make a lot of money. I love that. That's awesome. And then I realized, Okay, if I want to be a really good curator and a really good fescil director, or I want to teach film classes, or I want to write books, unfortunately most of those don't generally pay. Making documentaries is not going to make you rich. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I'm not
saying I got in this to get rich. I'm just saying I think I kept saying I'm not going to think about the finance picture and what I have to do to get my kids through school. Sure, I'm gonna work really hard, and so I think the lesson was, you know what, you got to go the other way. You got to you gotta love what you do. And fortunately for me, I've loved every minute of this journey. I've I've got to make movies, I've got to meet and discover tons of
filmmakers. I love what I do. But but you the lesson I learned was you can't think about where the money is going to come from and think that just if I do this really well and I work really hard and I'm good at that, the money will come. Because the truth is some of these some of these categories in the film space don't pay as well as you know, producing a movie for twenty century Fox, and even those films sometimes or Disney or exactly, there is no more twenty century Fox or come on,
come On, It's gone now. And three of your favorite films of all time, I have to say Citizen Kane. I saw it in film school, and you know that's kind of an easy answer is Beautiful, which I had the pleasure of showing with Benini and everyone there at the Chinese when I was Running a Fi. I love that movie and uh gosh, my third one, I think one of the most impactful movies for me kind of coming out of film school. Sexualizing videotape. Yeah, Soderbergh's first film,
and actually What puts on Dance on the Map. Yeah, very influential, well, he is in general. Those are three Those are three three big ones. Yes, even as in general very influential. What he does and
what he's doing now with iPhones is pretty insane. So I'm glad there's someone like him out there doing what he's doing, and for that and for that sake, and and for and and also I'm glad that you're out there doing what you're doing and fighting the good fight and helping filmmakers find not only you know, meaning sometimes and using this medium to actually help other people, which is very important, but also helping them find their path in this business and
in life. And if you once you get a taste of this, uh, of doing something social and something that helps other people, it's fairly addictive, uh and very rewarding. Yeah. Yeah, it might. You might not live in the Hollywood Hills, but you're happy. You're happier I feel, but you know, you ever like you live in the Hollywood Hills and have social impact. I mean, look, Arnold did it. Yeah yeah. One of the taglines I use for for Cause Cinema was see good,
do good, feel good. I think that kind of sums it up right. You get to see good social impact movies. You want to do good right with the call to action, and you'll feel good for doing so. That's that's an amazing thank Thanks for having me, man, It's it's an honor to be here. I've been I've been listening to your show and a huge fan. I appreciate that. But thanks so much. And real quick, where can people find you in your in your work? Uh? Cause
pictures dot com is is kind of my my anchor organization. And then for the book Filmmaking for Change obviously, thank you so much, brother. I appreciate you coming on the show and keep fighting the good fight, my friend. Thank you you too. I want to thank John so much for being on the show and being an inspiration to the tribe on how to use your filmmaking to change the world, to change society. And again, guys, you know you don't have to put all the pressure of the world and the
world's problems on your art and on your films and on your writing. But as you can make a slight change, use a theme, use something that can change somebody's mind to really help the world as a whole. It is I think, really really important that you use this very powerful medium that we call filmmaking to make a change in the world in any small way we can. Now. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including links to his book Filmmaking for Change, head over to
the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three sixty six. Thank you so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.