You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three fifty eight. Do not pray for an easy life, Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one. Bruce Lee broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next
draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored
by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that used to reading tempole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on
that. At Bulletproof script coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, Today on the show, we have film producer
Simon Swart. Now. Simon has been working in film production and distribution for over thirty years and was a leading studio executive at Warner Brothers, Walt Disney Studios, and twentieth Century Fox. After leaving his last job, he decided to venture out and start producing his own films, and he created some very profitable films, including Six with Josh Hartnett and the mega indie film hit I Can Only Imagine, which grossed over eighty three million dollars at the box office.
With those releases, he created a multi window distribution model and he created new markets for the ever shifting distribution space for competitive smaller studios. This third party distribution model started with Lionsgate and then grow into MGM, Relativity, DreamWorks and Maribacks and generated substantial fees and greater, greater efficiency and kind of knocking
down the old distribution model. Anytime I can have somebody who is championing a new way for filmmakers and production companies and studios, small studios to be able to make money with their films, I am all about it. I was very excited to talk shop with him and re really get into it in this episode. So, without any further ado, please, in my conversation with Simon swart I like to welcome to the show, Simon swart Man. Thank you so much for being on the show. That's great to be here.
I appreciate it. Man, you are you, You've been around the block a few times. I know that you have some shrapnel in the from the business, without question, and experience cars, some battle scar some shrapnel. Absolutely. So before we get into it, how did you get into the business. Wow, I've got to tell you. I got into the business by sending my resume to every record company and music company on the West Coast
and being completely rejected. And I ended up meeting and guy at a party and turns out they were hiring somebody they were looking for someone at Warner Brothers, and that was it. That's generally, isn't that the way it works? The younger generation out there, You've got to send your resumes out there and do that stuff, but ultimately it's probably your relationships and your contact so they're going to get you a job. And by the way, you don't
get your dream job out the gate. You take whatever job is going and you do it to the best of your abilities. Wait a minute, so you so you mean to tell me that out of film school, Kevin Fahy is not going to call you to direct the next two hundred million dollar Marvel movie, like right out of film school as a ten year old, a fifteen year old, twenty year old. Probably not. I think it's a long shot, just as happened. The golden tickets do exist, they're just
rare. But and I've spoken about this golden lottery ticket mentality of filmmakers for so long because that's the one story that you hear. I mean, we're still talking about El Mariachi. I mean it's I mean, it's like that these mythical stories and these filmmakers think that that's the way it's going to work,
and that's not the way this business runs. You You've got to put it in your ten thousand hours plus and you might be getting coffee, you might be driving people to and fro, But you do what you got to do, and you learn along the way without question. Now, what did you do when you got over to Warner Brothers. Well, so here's the funny thing. By the way, I studied accounting and auditing. I was actually a charged accountant by trade. So okay, you know how did that
all work out? Well? I was an art student who realized that I could probably emigrate better with a business degree than with an art degree. So I did that basic math and I forced myself to learn business and things like that. And when I started Warner Brothers, I was a manager of international Finance, which was a glorious position. It sounds very creative. It was very creative, not as much as you would think, but I would say.
I worked through Warner Brothers. I then worked for a small independent, I worked at Disney, and then I spent the last twenty years at Fox and doing different roles in different functions, but gradually getting into more and more creative roles, where I eventually became the head of sales ahead of sales and marketing, and then I ran the distribution division for the home entertainment side at
Fox for the last decade or so. So since you were at Fox, there was a few movies that they had they had ownership of that of course now Disney because the Disney owns everything, but at the time you were responsible. Soon yeah, soon, I think I should be getting my check from the Mouse at any day now just to buy me out at this point. But while you were there, you got to work on a very prestigious, you know, franchise which is called the Star Wars. So how was that?
What was the stories behind marketing Star Wars? And you were there when the re release was happening, which was the ninety seven re release, which was basically our first look. There was a whole generation we've never even seen Star Wars in the theater before. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. I mean, actually, what I loved about the gig at Fox on the that side
of the business was you were the curator of the studio's history. You're and the great filmmakers all understand that their movies will be remembered, not necessarily on the big screen. The launches on the big screen, and we're all making movies for the big screen because it is such a remarkable experience as a consumer, as a fan when the lights go out and you've got your popcorn and
this the imagery, the journey you go on is is so remarkable. But the legacy is going to be on the home screen, whether it's digital and whatever format you're going to get it. That's the legacy issue. And you're the curator of all this film history. And yeah, ninety seven we had a whole generation of Star Wars fans that you know, your access to the
movies were so limited. Now you get to re release it and you're creating a whole new group of fans, you know, whether it's Star Wars or it's a Fair to Remember or sound of music, you know, it was. I loved that part of the job was working on the older movies and working on these classic franchises and keeping them alive. And it's a privilege to
get to reintroduce them to new audiences. Frankly, now, how can you talk a little bit about the marketing mindset about around relaunching Star Wars in the theaters, because that I remember in that time that it was considered a risk. I still remember it was considered a risk and they were talking to like, why would they do this. It's available on VHS, you know what, and it killed obviously admitted the scene amount of money. Sure, you
know, Honestly, Lucasfilm was integral in everything that we did. And you know, one thing that one thing about George Lucas and the guys at Lucasfilm is they were so protective of their fans, right, they wanted they respect their fans. They everything was about protecting the fans and giving them, giving them what they wanted. Uh, and you know listening. I mean, they're one of those brands that always had a dialogue with their fans and they've
had those super fans for a reason. So everything we did was about servicing the fans. And yeah, releasing the movie out there. I want to say, if I remember correctly, we did something like a million over a million units of a trilogy. People like, there's no way you're going to sell a million units of a trilogy that's from a movie that was released sort of you know, thirty years ago. You know, everyone's moved on. It's like not so much, you know, like we were saying, and
we love proving people wrong. Yeah, Like we were saying, like I was saying before when we were off air, is like I've purchased the Star Wars movies on pretty much every format ever released. Yeah, And honestly, the marketing challenge in that right was always making sure you were giving the fans
a reason to buy it again. You're not buying just the same product again, right, So when there were technological advances, like we were able to digitize and remaster, like when we moved to DVD and Blu ray and re release them on those formats, you know, we were able to go back and actually, you know, Lucasfilm went back and fixed some of the scenes because the VFX weren't translating properly and technology had advanced so much, and that
was pretty controversial as well. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So, I mean, one of the marketing decisions we had to make is I think when we did the DVD, we released it in the original format and the original resolution and in the enhanced version where it had been digitized and some of the digital effects have been cleaned up, and so on, So you know, the fans were very
clear they wanted both. They wanted to the original the way I saw it and did as way back when, but I also would like to see the new, updated version too, So it was kind of rare we did. We did some some some pretty creative things back then, you know, releasing the releasing, releasing both movies in the same package. You know you can have both versions. Now you you you were in charge of a lot of marketing of a lot of big franchises during your tenure at Fox and at Disney.
Can you talk a little bit about what it's like working with the studios and what a typical marketing plan is for a blockbuster film, because you know, the roll outs to the understand because we'd on the show, we've talked a lot about independent film marketing and your niche audiences and grassroots and all this
stuff. But I would love to hear from the inside, what is the plan, Like, Okay, we're going to spend X dollars on billboards and this kind of ads, in these kind of ads, And of course technology has changed a bit since probably a lot of those earlier releases, but just curious, so I think one of the biggest things is you know, back
back in the nineties, you had a slightly more homogeneous plans. Right, you would have your billboards, you'd have your radio, you have your print, you have your trailering, right, and you had television, so you knew who the audience was that you needed to open the movie. Obviously, there's a lot of testing done in those days, even pre digital. We'd test the movie against the audiences, so we knew what the rating was. And every marketing plan was different depending on the genre, the size, and
the scope of the movie. Okay, so you know the worst thing you can do, and sometimes you can see studios getting a little as you about it, as there's a cookie cutter approach, Right, this is the way we've done it. And that kind of strategy went out the window quite a long time ago, especially now with the challenges of mass market marketing. So if you're buying media on TV, you now have to supplement it with social media and online media and that becomes a much bigger piece of the budget.
So the marketing of these movies has always been dynamic, and it's always been risky, right. That hasn't changed. It's just a matter of where you're
spending the money and where you're taking the risk. And it also depends on who your target target audience is. If you go back twenty years ago, the sweet spot of opening blockbusters was males eighteen to thirty four, Right, Like, if you could get the fanboys in to go see a movie you were made, you knew you'd make your number, you'd get the butts and seats. And now you know, twenty nineteen, you know that's just not the case anymore, because those fan boys are you know, they're add basically
on the media world. You've got to They're everywhere. And I think one of the coolest things that's actually occurred in the marketing space is, you know, the old school marketing demographics don't work. Don't work anymore. We don't identify the audiences don't identify based on ethnicity, social class, gender, as much as we'd like them to. Audiences identify based on interests, behaviors, passions. So and it's very hard to do mass marketing anymore. You know,
the it's diminishing returns and what you're getting out of TV. You know, you've got to advertise on certain cable channels and you've got to be in certain events. I mean, Super Bowl ads are probably one of the rare exceptions where everybody is probably going to see your ad and then you've got to supplement it with online and social media. But your online and social media can just be a replication of what you're doing on radio and what TV. They've
got to be unique to that format. And I think that's one of the one of the cool things that's going on in the marketing space right now. But is it. I've noticed this just from just being a watcher of the industry. I've noticed that from the days of when I was coming up in the nineties to today, the studios are having a more difficult time, even them with their massive resources to actually get to the audience to get because there's
so much more competition. I mean, those fan boys, a lot of them are just sitting in front of a video game for fifteen hours a day. They're not interested in going to the movie theater anymore. So it's much it's even difficult and challenging with hundreds of millions of dollars, how do you break through even with the eighty million dollar spend, and by the way, you've got to recoup that too. So you know, you spend three hundred
million dollars making the movie. Now you've got to spend maybe another one hundred and fifty million dollars marketing it. So most people don't understand that whatever the box office is, you've got to cut it in half right off the bat, because exhibition takes half, and then you've got to recoup your marketing costs,
and then you've got all these other expenditures in there. So it gets pretty crazy because when you start having to spend against social media and stuff, is that an incremental spend or you're taking a dollar away from your your mass market TV. Yeah, And the reality is you can't take away the dollar because you still need that mass market TV. And by the way, you still need those cable spots because that might be where your target audience is as
well. Right, And you've also got to spend money on PR and publicity to break through. So really kind of your your your marketing campaign is almost a military campaign of sorts. But it's all here towards opening weekend, right, right. But I've noticed that opening weekends, I mean depends of course on the on the on the franchise or on the blockbuster that's coming out,
But opening weekends aren't what they used to be. Sometimes they will explode and will have the two hundred million dollars, one hundred and fifty million dollars, a ninety million dollar like The Joker did recently. You know, you know those are that was a surprise, But those those numbers aren't as much as they used to be in box off like look at that Will Smith movie. The Gemini Man just tanked, you know, which is a whole conversation about
movie stars. Did they even matter anymore? I think movie stars definitely matter. I think that the model is changing where you have those you know, the classic star driven vehicles. The content still needs to be really good, right, you can't just do those vanity projects. I think what's happened is there's this massive you know, the days of the studio chief being the thought
leader or the you know, the taste maker for the whole country. Yeah, I'm going to do I'm going to I'm going to create a relationship with a movie star and I'm going to give them thirty to forty percent of the budget or something crazy like that. Because it's there in it, it's automatically going to open you know, those days are long gone, right. The content needs to deliver, it needs to be good, right, And I think that's that's one of the many changing things that's going on in the film
space. I mean, you know, in the industry, we laugh about the back end participation, right because it's invisible. The whole point behind the backhand participation was that you would allow your talent to share in the upside of a movie, so you keep them engaged. The reality is, with the studio accounting being what it is, that back end never materializes, okay, so stars have to figure out a different way to get paid. So what
they would do is they'd take a disproportionate share of the budget. All that does is shift all the risk back to the studio in essence. So I think these economic models are all changing as the realities change, and the technology is changing that as well. And the reality is everybody doesn't fully understand, or i'd say nobody fully understands what the future of media consumption is going to be. It's not going to be one thing. It's not going to be
just theatrical, it's not going to be just streaming. It's going to be a balance of all of these technologies and now where does the humble independent filmmaker fall into all of this conversation in general? Well, it's fascinating. I think the challenge for the independent filmmaker has been that as studios have moved away from the mid level star driven movies and the smaller movies, they're focusing more on the big franchises. Right. The reality is to in my mind,
that's a Disney game. Disney wins that game every time because they're a licensing franchise machine. That's what they do. Right. Even Bob, I guess is I love I love the movies we're making, but I also love great indie films and those art house films, which is ironic, but he goes, but he's clear that those are not the movies that Disney is going to be making, right, Okay, And and that's that's obviously very very revealing, but it's it's insightful. He knows what their core strength is and he
plays to it, and he's brilliant at that. But for the other studios, that leaves a lot of in between. Right, if you don't have the theme parks and you don't have that big licensing machine for all the toys and the T shirts and all the other stuff that goes with it. You know, where does that leave you with the independent films and those mid level movies, because there is still a market for them. But but the risk is the risk is what it's always been. The reality is the studios aren't
going to put out that money. So as an independent producer, you have to go raise the money to make the movie. You can then partner up with the studio for a distribution deal or a service deal, and that's the way to go. Then the challenge is when you have to raise as an independent filmmaker, you've got to be thinking about how am I going to raise the money to actually make the movie? But at the same time, how
am I going to raise the money to actually market the movie? Because if you don't think about that until you finished the movie, you're at risk because that guy who comes in and puts up the p and A will then take control of the project. That is the model right now, and I think the innovation is going to come with your releasing strategy. So the challenge for the independent filmmaker is, I'm not making a movie for Netflix per se.
I'm not going to make a movie for Amazon, per se. But I've got a structure of my financing in such a way that I know how I'm going to get to market. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And the higher your budget goes over ten million dollars, the only way out is a theatrical release, or you've got to have covered your most of your negative with your foreign pre sales, right, so you structure your financing creatively. But most people don't think
that way, right. That's that's not always There's a few people that get that, but for most indies, like you've got to figure out what your strategy is. To me, Netflix is a is a great strategy, but just remember with Netflix, there's not a lot of upside. There's a great business model and they're okay paying the premium if they own the idea, if they own your ip. That's that's the way they're working right now. But
they're predominantly focused on big, big names too. You know, if you can get that Golden ticket, you know, Martin Scorsese with The Irishman, you know, that's a good deal. They pay you a big chunk of money for the movie and the rights and you make it for less than that. You know, the margin is what you get to keep the type of thing. So the independent film model is actually a pretty exciting place to be
right now. But you've got to really understand the distribution opportunities that are ahead of you at the point that you're creating your budget and you've got another your audiences. That was about to say, because I mean, I speak to the independent filmmakers on a daily basis, and I'm going to say ninety five percent of them are the creative producer, the creative director, and they're not the business person. They're creating a product and have no idea where to sell
it. And I'm yelling at the top of my lungs from the top of the mountain I can and going, Look, if you're a real estate developer and you make condos, you know who you're going to sell those condos to. You don't just make a condo, you know, a twenty you know, twenty unit condo and go now, let's see what we're going to do. You don't do that? Yeah, what what's your business plan? Who's
your audience? Who are you making this for? What are you hoping to accomplish by making this movie right, Because if you can answer those questions, and you're the first question I'll ask any independent producer or not a dependent producer director, is what is this movie most like? What? What do you believe your end product is going to be most like? Can you name five movies for me that you think this movie is like? And part of that
is understanding expectations, right, It's also understanding tone. But oftentimes, if you've got an indie filmmaker coming and saying I've got an eight million dollar budget movie or a four million dollar budget movie and it's most like Star Wars, or it's most like Avatar, you go, okay, that had like a three hundred million dollar budget, and you're going to do it for eight and James Cameron it's probably and James Cameron and and you know, and John Landau
and a studio behind you and so on. It's like you've got a level
set expectations, right. Whereas if you're making a movie that's a ten million dollar budget and one of your compcious Juno and one of them's Napoleon Dynamite, perhaps now you go, okay, now I'm listening, right now, I'm listening, because you know, if you're going to spend ten million dollars making a movie, you've laid off half of it with foreign your net exposure is five million dollars, and maybe you've got a one one and a half million
dollar tax credit. Take advantage of all that, your exposure for you and your investors is three and a half million dollars at that point. A great streaming deal gets you into a pretty good place and gets everyone to see your movie. It's kind of like understanding how you're going to go to market, what's your perfect end goal? Right And here's the thing is for us and for where my company's at right now, for NTV Pictures and Tiba, is
we really want to make movies for the big screen. And I know that's counterintuitive with what people are talking about in the industry and so on, but we're going to make them for the big screen. We want them to be
big and cinematic. We're not going to do the big budget. You know that our biggest budget's probably ten to fifteen million dollars because at ten to fifteen million dollars, you can get a great cast, you can get a great director, you can make something that's beautiful and deserves to be on the big
screen. And by the way, if you fumble and the movie doesn't end up as good as you wanted it to be at that budget range, you can make money still without a theatrical release with a certain cast, obviously with a certain cast, and if you passage, if you know who your audience is, you know you know. Again again the challenge is you need probably a minimum and there are a lot of people that will say you need twenty five million dollars minimum to open a movie in the US. I disagree with
that. I think if you know who your audience is, and you build your audience early and you're creative on the social side, you can open for much less than that. You know, probably around eight to ten for a relatively wide release. You know, but you've got to figure out where you're going to get that money from and how you're actually going to get that get that into the marketplace, right, Yeah, And you could also, I
mean, there's there's so many different ways of doing it. I mean, I have I've had multiple I've had multiple guests on and have done case studies of films. At heart are low budget. They were a mill or two million dollars. But they knew their audience so well, and they targeted them so well, and they worked on them for a year, year and a half cultivating that audience. By the time that movie came out, they killed
it. They were pulling three four theatrical and a lot of it. It was self theatrical where they were doing, you know, neither four walling or on demand screenings, and they were just killing it. It was but there's a lot of work and you really need to understand so many elements for that to happen. And most of those films, by the way, were not star powered. They were genre powered or story power. I think for an
end, you build an audience while you're shooting or before you're shooting. Start yeah, don't, don't give up the movie, don't don't trip anything that would turn off a potential future distributor. But stop building an audience as soon
as possible. Now, can you tell you, I mean, you've had great success going after niche audiences, specifically your film I can only imagine, which was a and away blockbuster in the realm of what you do, which is faith based films, And can you tell everybody a little bit about that film and then how much are grossed? And because it was a fairly impressive movie, and what was the budget of that film? If you don't want
me tell you ask it. I think a lot of all the credit on that movie should go to, you know, to the Owen brothers, Cindy Bond. I mean, they made something amazing. And you know, the Owen brothers I'd worked with when I was at Fox and we set up our whole third party distribution model at Fox. And the Owens were young filmmakers who I came across there and they had a little movie called October Baby, and it was very much a faith based movie, but it was really beautiful and
well shot. And that was where our relationship with them started. And they've just come along so much as filmmakers. You know, they've got two A cinema scores going in the faith based space, two general market A cinema scores. They're great filmmakers. And I think I can only imagine what worked with I can only imagine is we had a built an audience. It was based on a number one contemporary Christian song of all time, so it was a
massive audience. Most people didn't know the story behind the song. Generally, most people don't care about this is this story by the song, but for this song. But this song. Did I even know the song? And it's not that's not the music. I listened to YouTube, but I heard that song a thousand times. Oh it broke, It broke out of the out of Christian music because people just loved the song. It was inspirational and just for for for for giving people hope in music. I mean, it
is the power of the medium. So we knew we had a built an audience on that one. And you know, the Irwin Brothers did magic, you know, they they they grew up shooting, you know, doing sports and music anyway, and they were the right guys to do this project. In this in this movie is a universal story. It is about So you got a built an audience. That's a major plus factor. Our budget was less than ten million dollars. They started building the audience a year over,
a year out with limited screenings and so on. And you know, the movie's kind of a bit of a love letter to Nashville as well, but it deals with these fundamental issues of forgiveness. It doesn't become overtly preachy, but it's really a father son's story, but there's a love story in there also, And I think when you look at that movie, it delivers on all the beats that it's set up, so no matter what you believe, it doesn't force you into a certain belief paradigm. You do believe in forgiveness,
you do believe in love, you do believe in redemption. Right. We all love those kind of underdog stories, and that's what this is, you know. It was basically a story about a kid who gets beaten by his father, who's a heavy drinking, you know, abusive dad, and eventually he has to come to a point where he can reconcile with his father, and he does. There's this beautiful reconciliation. It's based on a true story, and I think, you know that's the power of a true story
too, is that you go, yeah, that actually happened. That guy got through it, He did that. This is what he accomplished. If he can do that, I can do that, you know. And that's that's something that's kind of cool about the story driven pictures. Yeah, and that movie, If I'm Not Mistaken, made about eighty four million domestic in the theatrical which is for a faased automatic. And again it was a very
limited marketing spend. The team at Lionsgate Roadside did a great job releasing that and you know, we had a lot to the producers had a lot to do with the releasing of that movie. But you understood, but the producers also understood their niche so well that they understood that. I'm assuming that any marketing spent wasn't just billboards and TV advis They were going out to churches, they were going after that where that niche audience lived. We'll be right back
after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Yeah we we Uh. Some of the best sort of agencies in the in the business were hired on that and helped guide that with with Roadside and Lionsgate. And you know that was an example of everything going really well. Uh. And you know, I think I think the Owens have another movie coming out. I forget the name, I still believe I think uh, which is coming out in March, and every every indication is it's going to be another hit.
It looks amazing, the anticipation is there. If you look it up on social media, you can see the kind of following it's got already. And again, that's just an example of building an audience early on. And it's a story that people know about in the community, and you know it's going to be a well made story because you know what this these filmmakers brand is. And and yeah, exactly, and they are building a brand around there themselves as Oh look, the Irwin Brothers. It's like Spielberg is a
brand and Scorsese is a brand. Yeah. And they're also doing it for a smart number too. It's like it's not like they're making this for one hundred million dollars, right right. Budgets are very the budgets are very rational if you've got a very targeted audience. You know, again, I think as an indie filmmaker, you've always got to rationalize your budget. That's part of knowing who your audience is and how you're going to go to market.
So making a movie for twenty million dollars when you can get the same result for age or nine, you know, that's just asking for trouble. I mean, you know, one of the most famous indies of of recent memory is Get Out. I mean, look at how look at Jordan Peel's brand look at how he's exploded, you know. But he didn't just show up. He paid his dues. You know, he took some creative risks.
But you know, I want to say, get Out was made for what less than five million dollars, you know, and that did I think they did over one hundred and you know it didn't. I think it did like two hundred something. It was some crazy number. And what a brilliant movie it was. It was just so fresh right in. But with that, that's one of those you know, he was with the Bloomhouse guys, so then that's a whole other conversation with Bloomhouse has been able to do and they've
been so smart. So that that's one of my other points as an indie filmmaker. Don't comp yourself to a lightning strike. Okay, oh that's great. I like that. Yeah, like, oh yeah, my movie's just like ceronormal activity. My movie's just like Blair Witch projects. Yeah, we're all aware of the outliers, right, It's like, you know what, Actually, when I was working at Disney, the first movie I got to
work on was Lion King. Okay, and this is something I learned every other movie, animated movie that came out after Lion King was the next Lion King. And the problem is they were all very successful, but they didn't do what Lion King did, so they were deemed failures. And so it's kind of like, don't benchmark yourself for an outlier. I think the key thing in an independent film is that you've got to set yourself up where singles
and doubles are a good thing. But if you hit a home run, you're great, right, But you're playing for the singles and doubles, like, get on base, just get on base. You know, that sets you up for your next project, your next thing, And if you hit a home run, you're ready to go. And it's kind of like every project I look at now, it's like, how do I get back to break even? Right? Failure should be break even, and I want to know that I've got a plan for break even, and then how do I
set myself up? Will this is this movie capable of a disproportionate return, right, And the disproportionate return is that big you know, the Juno type number, the Napoleon Dynamite type number, the get out type number. It's like, but you're not banking on the breakout. You're banking on a single or a double. Have you been Have you been listening to my podcaster,
because you literally said the exact thing I've said so many times. With my baseball analogy, I go, everybody wants to go up to bat and hit a home run, but most people when they make their first movie haven't even been in a baseball stadium or picked up a bat before, and they're expecting to hit a home run at the beginning, where there's that other guy or girl who's been in the batting cage just hitting away, hitting away, hitting
away, and just practicing until they finally get their shot up at bat. You know, it's fascinating that the egotistic mind of the filmmaker, which there is a few egos in our business, just a few, not many, but we have these delusions of grandeur as filmmakers. I definitely had for many years. You know, I was going to be the next this, or my film was going to do this thing. I'm sure you've run into this many times, so I'm fantasy to Indie Hustle. I won't reveal my sources,
okay, but I appreciate that. Yeah, I run into it all the time. It's a process, right, and you're gonna pay your dues. You've got to learn right. And by the way, there's a ton of people out there that will help you as an indie filmmaker. You've got to build up your network, find the people that can help you and advise you. There's a lot of people that will give you advice for relatively free. Don't pay for the advice yet, you know, you know verify.
It's like, I see a lot of people getting suckered by paying people to market their movies when they haven't fully vetted them, and they make bad deals and so on. There's a lot of people out there that will advise you as an indie filmmaker. There's a lot of resources out there available to you. But remember it's a slog and you know, I mean, my hat's
off to anyone who actually makes a movie. Because a movie, even if it's shot on your iPhone and it's edited and put together, it's a it's a pretty significant creative accomplishment, no matter, you know, just to actually pull that all together right, getting people to perform and so on. I mean, when when you've been on sets of on indies, you know, I enjoy indies because there's there's a lot of less, there's a lot of les, less, roomful waste. So everybody's very mission focused and usually that
crew is tight man. It's like they will do that. They're in battle man, and they're going to get the shots, they're going to get the coverage. And you know that your indie director is the ultimate team leader because he doesn't have money to throw around the way a big studio director might have. Right, like, you got to do this for the passion. You've got to enroll your entire cast and crew in your vision for what you're doing.
And that isn't easy. That takes a lot of practice. That's why it's like working on other people's movies is really one of the best ways to learn because you're in this together, your problem solved together without without questions. Preach, sir, preach, preach. Now, we wanted to talk a
little bit about distribution and distribution options for dependent filmmakers. You know, I've talked a lot about distribution on my show and on my other show, Film Entrepreneur, where is about how to get your film out there, And the landscape is changing so rapidly every other month, there's something new What was true last year is no longer true today in every its streaming and theatrical and on
demand and DVD, all of it. You know these legacy models, I call it the legacy distribution models, which were basically designed by the studios and the larger distribution companies to keep more money in their own pockets because they're businesses. I get it. And we've all heard those kind of predatory stories of the filmmaker signing the their movie away for fifteen years and never seeing a dime. We've all heard those stories. What are the distribution options that we have
as independent filmmakers moving forward? From your point of view, Well, look, the number one predictor of downstream revenue, you know, ironically, right, everyone's talking about all the disruption, all the stuff that's going on, the chaos of streaming with Amazon, Hulu, Netflix coming on board, how the studios are struggling and so on, but still the number one predictor of
downstream revenues for a movie is the US domestic box office. And it's like that brings a lot of clarity to all the discussions that are happening around the world and in the space. Right is the number one predictor of overall profitability. And what I mean by that is it still sets most of the downstream revenue streams. So if you have a guaranteed domestic release with a reputable domestic distributor on say one thousand screens, your foreign value goes up by four or
five x, maybe even more depending on the package. Right, So that is still the number one way to go, But the problem is it's really hard to get there, which is why you want to have the option of bringing your own P and A if you can, because that gives you the
option to release yourself and manage it yourself. However, if your budget's right, you can still get enough money out of foreign and if you structure it taking advantage of tax credits and things like that, you know, you can then release also directly to an HBO or a Netflix or a Hulu or an
Amazon. Right now, you can also get ordered. You can also get your product ordered and paid for ahead of time in some case by those guys if you if you're hitting something that they know that they have a need for or a niche. But if you're an unknown that's pretty hard, you know. So at the end of the day, you can you can self release digitally. You can put it on a digital platform yourself. The problem is you still need someone to find your movie, you know, the marketing.
You can't release a movie without marketing. You have to have a marketing plan. You might have the best movie in the world. You might have the you know, you might have the next Napoleon Dynamite, for example, but if people can't find it and don't know about it, you're never going to build up that word of mouth. So you've got to have some kind of strategy for releasing when you're making the movie, right, so you've got a couple of marketing in with it. I mean, the distribution landscape is really
complex. Right now, you've got windows collapsing. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So it's kind of you know, it used to be that you would make a fair amount of your money on the theatrical release. If you could recover most of your marketing money and the theatrical release, that was a good thing because then you
could try and recover your negative in the downstream. Right. You know, the streaming services used to pay a percentage of the domestic box office this TV syndication would pay a percentage of the domestic box office and then your your your digital and DVD in Blu ray. You know digital being transactional. If you pay to watch it again like a pay per view, or you buy it digitally on iTunes. That used to be most of the profit of a movie,
right, But that's collapsing with the advent of streaming. That's that's that's where that that's where the industry is in a scramble because all that that secondary transactional revenue is shrinking. And what I call transactional revenue is again if a consumer pays to watch it again, either by renting it on video on demand or buying it on iTunes, or buying a DVD or buying a Blu Ray. And by the way, you know people are still buying DVDs and Blu
rays. You have a if you have a big screen TV and you've got the biggest ultra high definition screen, the best way to watch your best sci fi movie, these Marvel movies, I would argue, it's still on a Blu Ray. It's the best way to replicate what you saw in theater. Because of transfer rates, buffer rates and all of that stuff is changing, but you know, each of these are individual segments that I still think. I still think physical media of some form or digital media is that's the legacy
platform. That's where as a filmmaker you get to explain your journey, you get you know, that's where people will discover your movie. And I think that's something we do have to solve for. And I know previously a lot of talk going on about blockchain and how that can apply to how consumers can transfer rights and how they can renew right. Explain explain that to people, because I know a lot of people don't understand blockchain, so I don't underst
stand it fully, so I'm going to qualify it. But what I understand is that it's basically it's this amazing certification where if you have a share certificate or it's like having a dollar and I'm not talking bitcoin, but if you buy the right to a movie, So let's say you buy the right, I can only imagine you pay twelve dollars or fifteen dollars right through blockchain technology, it will identify that I'm the legal owner of that digital copy of that
file. That means it can't be pirated. It can't be taken away from me. But that blockchain also identifies that the Urban Brothers own the copyright to that file as well, right, So it's kind of like this perfect aligning of rights where it's encrypted and protected. So I have the right to that movie. I can now sell that to you if I want to. I can sell it to you for seven dollars or eight dollars, but I own that right and I can certify that I have that right. So like DVD's
Blue RESERVEE just any physical media you could do that with as well. Yeah, except for with blockchain, you won't be able to rip it and I won't be able to share it. So for the studios and for the people that are making movies, I mean, let's face it, piracy has been a bane on the business since you know, its just since smart cams and bhs, right, and piracy is not is a major issue because the creators, we have so many challenges actually making money on our movie anyway getting it
through the traditional system. People are taking it for free and actually making money off of what you've created. So you know, piracy is not one of those victimless crimes. I really I don't believe it's a victimless crime. People are selling it and making money without actually putting the investment in the time in and people that have worked on the movie are therefore not getting paid. I mean, that is a fundamental problem, and I think that is one of
those things that the blockchain technology can actually help address and fix. I don't think it's there yet, but I think that's the promise of it. That's the way studios are looking at it, that's the way content creators are looking at it, and distributors are going, Okay, how do I make sure this happens. I mean the irony is, you know, you broke the story about the digital platform, the aggregator, Yeah, the Disugar product form. Yes, that kind of went sideways or went under and people lost a
lot of money. The funny thing is is that when you're selling Blu rays and DVDs, there's an audit trail that goes with that. It's like I know that I shipped these discs to that retailer, and that retailer then sold them and I got paid, and I can trace the money all the way coming back. Right with digital technology, ironically, even with the downloading and
the you know, the digital downloading on iTunes and Amazon. It's almost impossible to audit even though there should be a one relationship, there should be a trail that says, my credit card was charged fourteen dollars for the movie. Therefore, the studio should be able to know that. You know, I can follow that revenue all the way through the system. It's not it's not. That's how it should be, but it doesn't work that way. Yeah. I was always wondering that myself, because I'm like, who, Like,
how do I really know how much money has come in? There's no way to actually check it. There's no way to audit it. I'm trusting Amazon, I'm trusting iTunes, I'm trusting all of them. They could easily be siphoning off I'm not saying they are, but easily by either by error or whatever. But we can't really prove that we got all the money that we get, right. There's there's quite a few opportunities for leakage in the
current system. Yeah, there was a well there was there was leakage when you were shipping DVDs because people could make copies of DVDs and they could rip them and then they put them they put them on the internet. And then they're sharing them through bittarrents and all that kind of stuff, and you know that that's a constant process. And you know, that's where I think, again, just coming back to my limited knowledge of blockchain, that's where blockchain
is the promise to actually shut that down. But it also will I think it also has the potential to create a whole secondary and tertiary market for the content that we've all bought. Right, So, the days of us having our big physical libraries, you know, of us owning all favorite movies and having them on DVD and Blu ray, I think what's going to happen is
we're gonna have a digital library. I think our absolute favorite movies we're gonna want on whatever the hottest format is that's going to give us the best experience at home. So there's a handful of movies that we're gonna want to own
physically and we'll rebuy a'lla Star Wars. Right, going back to your first question, right, when Star Wars comes out again and it's ultra high definition and there's all these interactive features and you've now got a you know, a holographic George Lucas who talks through the entire movie for you exactly, and your TV is the size of the wall in your house, and it's super high
definition. You're gonna want to buy it on that format for that movie, but the vast majority of other movies, you're probably going to be okay just to stream it right exactly, or to wait until it comes on syndicated TV or pay TV that type of thing. If there's even TV, then who knows. It's all to be a series of channel apps and everything's going to be over the top without without question. I mean, things are changing so
rapidly. I mean, I mean, I again, I talked to this independent filmmaker so often, and I'm always getting these questions like how do I make money? What do I do this or that? And I've really tried to stay on the cutting edge. And I love this this blockchain idea of yours, you know, or the or the other promise of it, because it's basically, well, you know, for people who' understand block blockchain,
it is the basis of cryptocurrency. So it so that that then you have to you know, whoever wants to learn about cryptocurrency please go do so that's a that's a deep well that we will not cover in this episode, but that, but that technology does have so much promise that I always got pissed about that too, because I come from the video store days. When I worked in a video store where I could buy my VHS or buy a DVD. I'd hold it and then when I didn't want it anymore, I would
sell it on Amazon or eBay. Digitally, that does not exist anymore. You can't sell a digital copy unless they bootleg it. And even if you bootleg it, you can't really sell it in a digital way. You can
there's other ways, there's other business models. Inherently, as a consumer, I should have the right to sell that right, I should be able to sell it to you, and you know, and that's that's the stuff that I think blockchain actually enables, and I think it's it's high time because the reality is when you do buy a digital file, now you're not actually buying it. You're kind of renting it. Oh yeah, it's not I don't have it all to put on your hard drive. But it's not like something
else you buy that you can sell to someone else. It's basically, yeah, I'm renting it. Oh and by the way, if I change my cable company or something like that. God forbid, I'm probably gonna lose it.
It just that's it's that's the reality. Yeah, with our question, now, do you do you think and I believe it is, but do you believe that niche based films are the future of independent filmmaking Because I always tell people all the time that film independent filmmakers can't do a giant like aromantic comedy, a broad spectrum film, you know, a ten million dollar romantic comedy, unless there's some major star power in it, and that story has
to be really you're now you're you're really trying to hit that target so perfectly, you risk a lot. Whereas in if you I always use the vegan chef movie, you make a vegan chef movie that's romantic and you could target that demographic a little bit. But I'd love to hear your thoughts. Yeah, I think you have to have a clear idea about who your core audience
is. But you know, the exception to that is, you know, you take a movie like The Big Sick last year, right, Even Napoleon Dynamoe just one of my favorites because it's illustrative, it's a small movie. You know who your core demographic is, but it has the ability to break out because it deals with the human experience, right, And that for me, so it depends on you on your genre and what you're doing. Right.
So I tend to focus on content that unites and inspires people. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. And I gravitate towards stories which have a broad appeal, even though I will know exactly who my core audience is, right, So, if you're going to do a sci fi movie that's a high tech and that's going to appeal to that subset, Yeah, you've always got to know who your core audience is, and you've got to know where they are and how to get
to them. And you've got to know that at the script stage, frankly, but you're always hoping that you're doing Like again, for me, I'm looking for movies that have that breakout potential, and they only breakout if they connect beyond that niche. Now, now, faith based movies are interesting because in a way they're ultimate niche. So much like horror movies are kind of
a niche, they're a bigger, more commercial niche. Right, But if you're going to do a faith based movie for a niche, then you must do it for a budget, a smart number, A smart nat You've got to do it for a rational number because that's your core and you know that. You know it's going to be narrow and deep. Right, it's like horror. You know that if you get the core, and it'll be narrow and deep, but it has the ability to run, right, it's like
get out, Like get out, yeah, exactly. I mean that's just a I wouldn't even consider that exactly horror. But you're right. It was that Blumhouse model and it's like this is they know what to do? You know? So so yes, I think I think independent I don't think independent film is just is just niche. But I think you've got to have a hook that you can hold onto, right, Like when I read a script,
I'm I read script backwards from most creatives. I'm thinking, if I'm thinking of it from a distribution standpoint, and how am I going to market it? Where are the scenes that are going to be in my trailer? You know what I'm thinking is that's what I'm looking through. That's what I'm looking through. A script looking for Does that help? Yeah, it helps. I mean I think that I agree with what you're saying and that,
but potential to break out is that home run. So we you know as well as I do, we get one maybe two of those a year, you know, if and then there's maybe multiple levels of that breakout. So it could you know, if I if I could only imagine made twenty five or thirty million dollars, you would have been, you know, they would have been ecstatic, like, oh my god, you know, because it
was a super hit. But then you occasionally get the grand Slam, which is, you know, tenfold of what the budget is or something along those lines. But I do, I truly believe that, again, keeping that when your budget goes higher, you've got to have something to to hedge your bets. So it's either cast. It's either it's either cast, story, niche, genre, something that's going to hedge those bets to higher that budget
goes. And then and I'm always telling people to drop the budget as low as you possibly can while still being able to create an MVP, a minimal viable product to get to realize your dream, realize your vision, but get a product to the marketplace and not just look at this as an art form. It is an art form, but it is a business, and it is a very expensive art form to work with. Do you agree? Absolutely.
I mean, there's so many independent creatives that I've come across that know exactly how to make a movie for a budget, and that's that's a massive skill by itself. Got it. But these days, you have to know how you're going to get that money back to You can't just know that, you have to know the other part as well. So it's kind of like like you're saying, if I'm going to do a niche movie, you know,
I'll use an example. If you're going to do an inner city basketball movie, Yeah, okay, it's probably not going to travel very well. You're going to have to make your money in the US. Now. The markets are changing. Don't get me wrong, it's changing. Maybe you can sell it in China if they stop tweeting about it, you know, the NBA and they settle at hash. But but you know what I'm saying, It's like, if you do a very local movie, you've got to know
that it's probably not going to travel well. Therefore you make it that way and your distribution plan fits that accordingly, right, So you know that you're going to make all your money in that local market and then anything you make overseas is going to be gravy. It'll be incidental, but that's not core to my business plan. Right. It's like a baseball movie. Do a baseball movie. There's only a few countries in the world that it's really going
to work. If you do a movie about NFL football, you know, Blindside's probably like an exception that traveled really well because it wasn't really about football and it was CenTra Bullet too, and Canta Billick is a international star.
Yeah, so that's not the example. But it's like, there are certain genres that you know that you know are pretty niche and they're probably not going to break out, and you've got to You've got to you've got to have that plan and that understand you've got to be honest in the development stage of
your movie. It's kind of like, you know, if I use another analogy, if you're in a let's say you're in Colombia and you are a baker and you make this certain Colombian pace that is very well known in that segment of the country, not even the whole country, just that segment of the country. It's a niche product. But then you say, I'm going to throw in thirty million on this pastry because I think the rest of the world is gonna and we've seen how many products like that We've seen that are
culturally great. But the second they tried to break into the American market or another market, they just like, I would never eat pig like it's trying to sound like a big mac in India didn't go well yeah, well, well see now that gets into the heart of the DNA of the creative right again, coming back to what our company strategy is. Our game plan is to make movies that will work in the US marketplace. That is one of the lenses that we use. It's not everyone's lens, that's just our lens.
They're going to be filmmakers that are going to go, I only want a movie that's going to appeal to the African audience, or it's only going to work for the Indian audience. And by the way, I've got a business plan. It's going to work just fine. Right, there's nothing wrong with that. That's that's totally Those all viable options and plans, but you
calibrate and scale your production appropriately. Okay. But again for us, we're we're creating content that we believe well and we're going to cast it and we're going to package it. We wanted to work in the US marketplace because generally, if you can break it in the US marketplace, it is a pretty good indicator that it will travel elsewhere. Yeah, and it's it's it's just
fascinating. I've just seen. I mean, I know of filmmakers like Isaac Nawaja who is a filmmaker in Uganda and he makes films locally, and he created a whole industry in Uganda and he makes his films for two hundred dollars two hundred dollars US. I think that's really exciting for us exactly. And now Africa is turning into a whole thing. I mean, there's a lot of Nollywood and all these kind of wonderfuls. There's so much media growth potential
right now, and it's a it's a great thing. But the funny thing is, with Isaac's example, he made these little two hundred dollar movies that were action really just fun and action, and the visual effects are horrendous and you know, according to our standards, but his audience has loved it. And then he cad a cult following worldwide. So now he travels the world
with these little movies. But he had break up potential. But I promise you, because I interviewed him, he had no indication of ever getting out of his little town. He but he's going to break out. Yeah, he did already. He already is. And people like, where did this guy come from? Well, he's been doing this for a long time. He didn't get forty here it is, right, forty features under his belt. Tyler Perry's a brilliant example of that. Yeah, just brilliant trot,
just unbelievable. He saw a niche that was completely underserved, which is the African American woman, right, Nobody was catering to them at all. And he saw that opportunity and he saw the opportunity for positive messaging and he filled that gap. And it's like, kudos and credit to him as he saw that niche and he recognized what it was worth and he committed himself to it. And it's just one of those amazing success stories. But it wasn't an
overnight success. It was a lot of blood, sweat and tears and just a lot of courage. Frankly, no, I remember seeing Diary of a Mad Black Woman when it first came out, which was a big, huge deal. When it came out, it was like, how can they make this movie? And there was a lot of controversy and all this stuff. I remember that was like in the nineties, if I remember, it was
in the nineties when that came out and he was just getting started. And now fast forward twenty nineteen, he's got a studio in Atlanta that's bigger than Disney, Warners and Paramount all put together. Yeah, isn't it cool? It's insane Those stories that get me really excited. I mean, you know, Frankly, I mean there's a lot of that stuff going on. So like ntb our Company to talk about my company a little bit, sure our
headquarters in South Africa, because there's exciting stuff going on South Africa. What most people don't know is that all the major studios Netflix and Amazon included are shooting down there because it doubles for just about anywhere in the world. The exchange rate is fantastic. There's an incredibly strong local crew down there, and there's a great accent centive. You know. The problem is it's a long way away, but it's like there's something exciting to me about building these industries
and places in these more remote places where technology is possible. It makes it possible, right and you get these great crews and the quality of the production happening down there is remarkable. So we're not exclusively producing movies down there. We just have a very strong proclivity to want to do more down there because all the studios are doing it down there. They see what we see.
But what happens is all the IP and all the upside comes back to the States or goes back to Europe, etc. And it's like, we can do this, we can cast it this way. We can create movies that are made for the American market because it's already happening insideth Africa. Now we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
show. And you know, South Africa has just been a country that has consistently hit above its weight class, shall we say, and with its message of diversity, it truly is a remarkable place right now given its history, and I actually think South Africa being a former South African has a message for the world right now in terms of diversity, in terms of unity, in terms of kind of a message of humanity and bringing people together. And I
think it's what we all need right now. And I don't know again, you can tell that's the kind of content that really draws me, that draws me out, is stuff that brings people together, where we share our common humanity and challenges us. And there needs to be more producers like you out there, sir, doing doing the good work that you're doing. So I thank you. I thank you very much. I wanted to ask you, can you tell me about your new project? I Am All Girls. Yeah,
this one's a very cool little project we did. It's a great INDIEA had a very talented director, Donovan Marsh who did Hunter Killer with Gerard Butler that released last year, and coming off that big movie, he wanted to do something that was kind of small and personal but had an impact. And in South Africa, I don't know. A story had broken a couple of years ago about this human trafficking that was going on in South Africa, and
it became very clear that human trafficking is a global plight. It's a massive problem that people don't want to talk about, and it's happening in the US. It's not a South African problem, it's not an Asian problem or a Middle Eastern problem. It's truly a global problem. And your slavery has been
a problem since the beginning of time. So we wanted to create a movie that was commercial, it was entertaining, but we wanted to explore the world of the people that actually go into the human trafficking world to try and stop it and ascertain what the impact is on those people. So this is kind of a crime thriller. It starts off as kind of a vigilante movie, and you realize it starts off as a serial killer movie, but then you
realize it's a vigilante movie. And there's a conflict between the investigating police officer who realizes that this killer might actually be doing her work for her where she's constrained by the rules and the regulations. This vigilante is going to the place that she can't go, and you know, she's she's torn by duty and she wants to do it the right way. Now she's like, Okay, do I bring this person in? And then she discovers the identity of the
killer. So it's kind of a very commercial thriller. We have. It's two female leads are two great South African actresses, and it basically is based on real events. It's based on stuff that actually occurred in South Africa in the nineties, but when you look at the Me Too movement, you look
at what going on. We wanted to create a movie that would wake people up and want to get them more involved in anti trafficking and just being aware of what's going on in their own communities, and that's one of the reasons we created this movie. But we recognized its entertainment as well, so we're going to entertain people. The cinematography is stunning. We tested it in front of a US audience. We tested just above the norms and above and well
above the norms against the female targeted audience. But you know, it was really gratifying to us, as more than eighty five percent of the recruited audience in the US said they wanted to get more involved in anti trafficking activities, and ultimately, for us as independent filmmakers, that's the good housekeeping seal of approval for us, and actually We've got a song from Pearl Jam on the soundtrack that that hit daughter and Nancy Wilson from Heart saw one of the rough
cuts of the movie and she was so moved she actually did a cover of it that will just blow you away. And she is so talented. But this song just captures the energy and the defiance and the brokenness and the strength. But just it really epitomized what we created in the movie. And you know, and then happens. It's really magical. That's amazing. I look forward to seeing that movie. So you're doing good work out there, and I'm so I'm so glad that you will be able to come on the show
and talk drop some knowledge bombs on the show. Now, I'm going to ask a few questions I ask all of my guests. Sure, So, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today? Get into the business, do something and find people to learn from. Build a network. Start building your network right now where you are. Whoever you went to film school with, those are probably the guys you're going to work
with again in the future. And make sure your networks are all supporting each other. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life. Sure, if it's not coming together correctly, you know, be patient and sometime it's not. Sometimes if it's not coming together, there's a reason why, and you've got to be open to the possibility that maybe it's not meant to be, and then you move on to the next So cut your losses. There's kind of a balance between
cutting your losses and being the stoic champion of the movie. Right. If you're hearing the same answer again and again from many people, it's probably about right. But you know, but but don't don't let that crush your creative instinct. And I know that balance. But yes, and you don't have to win every battle, yes, yes, especially in this in this business, it's very difficult to win every battle. Figure out which ones you must
win and be okay to lose a few. It's okay. Now, what was the biggest fear you had to overcome when making your very first feature film? Uh, the biggest fear I had to overcome and making it was actually it was based on a true story and for me, my biggest fear was that we would accurately portray the line of this person whose movie we did, and that was a movie called six Below, okay, And we wanted to accurate, you know, because because to me, when you're doing a true
story of someone's life, it's a sacred trust. And and I really wanted to make sure that we delivered on that and and of course made it on time, of course, and on time and on budget, sir, And on time and on budget. Yes. Now, what are three of your favorite films of all time? Oh, that's a rough question. I've got to say. Apocalypse Now is up there? Patterns up there. There's definitely a Copola thing going there. Apocalypse Now, mainly because one of my favorite
books growing up I was a peculiar kid, was Heart of Darkness. You're very peculiar kid. I love that translation of it. It was just stunning and and uh, yeah, that's that's probably it. And I've got this is this is not good but probably dumb and dumber. Hey, you know, dumb dumber and something about Mary. I mean, I love the far early work. Uh and and the fact the fact that Peter Farley had just did The Green Book too is stunning to me. And as a filmmaker,
I love. I love his work, and he always has something more in his movies. Even he's crazy comedies, there's there's something just there's just such a great heart in there. The wouldn't have been interesting though, to see Apocalypse Now by George Lucas, who was originally slated to direct that movie. Yeah, that would have been an interesting film. Well, you know one of my anecdotes with Francis Ford Coppola, so we were working on the DVD
set. This might be the segment you want to cut, but it's like what I'd say to young filmmakers, just remember the thing that you're doing that gets you fired might be the thing you were remembered for. And the reason why I say that is that mind we did this whole thing with Francis Ford Coppola around the making of Pattern, and you know, we did a special edition and so on, and he talked about that opening scene and Pattern and
that opening monologue and he was actually fired. He was about to be fired off of Godfather. Apparently the South story goes he was fired off of Pattern and he was about to be fired off of Godfather when he won the Academy Award for Patent Okay, and that So it's kind of funny how that works, right. This industry is not as predictable as you would see him.
It's not a straight line. And you look at what a great filmmaker like that and the creative risks that he took, and conventional wisdom at the time was that this scene sucks. Why are you doing this? This is terrible. He got an Academy Award for it, and he got to finish The Godfather as a result of that, and that's that's true story stuff. And imagine imagine The Godfather without Francis Ford Coppola. You can't. There is no Godfather with out fresis for Copola, you know. So I guess to the
young filmmakers out there, it's not a straight line. It can be a pretty bumpy road. And that just stay the course, man, without the question. I promise you everyone listening right now, whatever you think is going to happen in your career, it is not going to happen, not like that. It's got to be different, exactly. And if it does happen like that, God bless you, be thankful. But if it doesn't,
just remember it. It's a marathon, not a sprint, exactly. Without question, Simon, where can people find you and more about your work that you're doing well. I'm pretty much on LinkedIn and we have a company website and Tiba Pictures, so it's a bit of a mouthful. I'll I'll put it in the show notes somewhere on the show antiv Pictures you can see more about us and the stuff that we're working on. So time. Thank you very much, Simon. Thank you so much for being on the show,
and I do appreciate you taking the time out man terairis. Thanks Alex. It's been a lot of fun. I want to thank Simon for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so much, Simon. If you want links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including links to his films, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three fifty eight. Thank you so much for listening, guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what.
I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.