You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three fifty one. To make a real independent film where the filmmaker is in charge creatively, one must sacrifice personal, financial, and physical wellbeing. Mark Polish broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we
really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
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head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys, I know many of you have heard about test screenings and what studios do by putting out their movies and watching a watching a test audience, having asking them questions, what they think and what goes on. But I've never really understood or gotten an inside look at what actually is happening in those test screenings, how they're set up, what the stories are behind it, and so much more So,
today we have filmmaker Terrence Martin who begun his career as a studio test screener, and his insights on the process is pretty invaluable to any independent filmmaker out
there. So we talk about his journey, some amazing stories with some big celebrities and big studios, and what happened before the screening and after the screening and We also talk about his new film get Away If You Can, which stars Ed Harris, and we also talk about how he was able to get Ed Harris for an independent film while he's being one of the biggest stars on
Westworld and just being a legend in general. So it's a fascinating conversation on how you're able to get a big, big star to work on your independent film. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Terrence Martin like to welcome to the show, Terrence Martin. Man, how you doing, Terrence great man, Thanks for having me. We thank love the
show. Oh, thank you so much. Man. Yeah, you've been telling me that you were you were a fan and you've been listening to it, and it was kind of like a lifeline of like what's going on in the business while you were going through your opus of making a movie, an independent film for seven years and all that stuff, which we're going to get into your to your new movie. But I'm glad, I'm glad we could be a voice of reason and scare the hell out of you as well along
the way. Definitely hearing some of the other similar horror spurys and when you make something new, and you have your head down for seven years. When you come out, the industry is completely different. So hearing from your guests helped us avoid a lot of troubles as we sold our film. Awesome Awesome, of course, of course that's why we're here to doing that. Man. So how did you get first of why did you want to get into this insanity? And how did you get into this insanity that business? Yeah,
man, I got a bit by the creative bug really early. I grew up in like blue collar town in Connecticut. This was not like the Who's the Boss Connecticut. It was a pretty tough, tough town. And I got into something they deemed the gifted program, right where they ship you off to another school with a few few people, which was like the worst thing you could call something at that time because all the other kids like resented you. But when I got to this special program, every week, the
teacher said, hey, what would you like to do? And I said, well, I love storytelling, I love reading, I love movies, and she's like, go in that room and just write. And I was. I must have been in third grade and I just started writing Wow. And I would come back and the teacher would say, now read it to me in the class and she would always say, yeah, your stories are okay, but my peers, my friends would start asking me for these stories.
So since third grade, I had a really great relationship with writing. And my cousin was in film school. She was much older than me, and she would then take her sixteen millimeter camera and we would make these fun little horror movies on the beach, because you know, I was the VHS generation, so I would skip school and come home with like a pile of movies, and you know, I was really into horror films at the time. So it just was writing and filmmaking were pleasures for me at a young
age and it kind of stuck through through through college. I wanted to come straight out to LA at eighteen, but you know, parents are like, you're going to get your degree, you know. So I went to a liberal arts school and I was pretty miserable unless I was studying writing filmmaking,
and they allowed me to finish here at UCLA campus. They were just starting this thing called the New York Film Academy in LA and they let me do like basically half a semester's credits to take this program, and it was right on the UCLA campus. And right after they went to Universal Studios and they needed people to help with the summer program, and I got a job with them, which was basically just running all around the lot making short films with
these like crazy high schoolers. So we would like be at the Psycho House one day making a film with one and one of my early students was Max Spielberg, so it was just like crazy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he didn't really love. I had to love like Steven for our filmmaking. But it was so crazy to be like teaching Spielberg's son, you know, not really teaching, just being a liaison for his short films.
But it was a really cool. Yeah, it was fun, man, and it really taught me that I had a lot of work to do because most of my other teaching assistants were straight out of UCLA grad school. So here I am like, hey, i'll help you get your filmmate, I'll read your scripts, and they were like, who are you man? You
just came out of the New York Film Academy program. So I realized straight off, like this is going to be very competitive, and I bet it work hard, you know, so I just really started focusing on writing scripts and reading everything I could. I had already taken to Joseph Campbell and The Hero's Journey, that was probably my favorite ARC book about how the writing process
should be. But then I just read everything, you know, put my nose to the grind soon and I wrote ten or fifteen scripts and was lucky enough to have a manager take one out on the town. It didn't sell, but it was the exact story of the Revenant, but told through the kids, the kids perspective, who was Jim Bridgard. But it was that
same trapping mission, which is like a femous mission. I remember going into to meetings and just because they passed, I thought, well, if they're meeting, I still have a chance to get this made, you know, instead of just like cultivating a relationship, I would be trying to press, you know, this Mountain Man script. And I was meeting with this executive. She's like, yeah, you know, you're really good with story, You're you're cool with characters, but we're working on Scooby Doo too, And
I say, can we call it Scooby Don't make eyes? Rest this American epic? And her face was like record scratch, and I thought, okay, like I'm doing this all wrong. What can we call it? Scoopy? I was making a silly joke, you know, but it was like, okay, cool, Like, thanks for coming in from the meeting, Terrence, We'll be in touch. So lesson for everyone listening. Don't do
what Terrance said. But I also realized, like, I don't know that I want to be auditioning as a writer for Scooby Doo, Like I love the show as a kid, but I want to do my own stuff. And that's that's when I started writing The Donner Party, you know, which which ultimately got me. So during this time, there was like a little little side hustles you had to do in La to make a living. You've had some very interesting ones. Can you talk about your time as a test
screener? Because test screenings we all hear these legendary test screenings like the Airplane One, which was notoriously bad because nobody wanted to admit that they liked it or totally you know, all these kind of movies that, like the ending
of Fatal Attraction was changed because of the test screening. So what tell us your adventures in the test greening pace and what actually goes on behind the curtain, because I truly never been I've been in a test screening once or twice in my life, but I truly don't know how the studios work within it
and what the process is, And tell me what you know. Sure well, I had gone from the New York Film Academy and I knew that the summer program was ending, so I kind of just was walking around a lot and I got a PA job on Holes, which has turned out to be kind of a hero to that generation, or a Shia the Buff's first movie. But man, they'd worked me. I was a PA in the art department from start to finish, And I came out of that thinking like, what kind of job can I do where I make my own hours and I
write. And I don't know, if you're ever living in LA you see these guys like giving out free movie passes all the time and the point is to rate the film. And I thought like, there can't be an easier sales job than get a person to see a movie. And it did turn out to be a lot harder than I thought, but it was still pretty easy and it was really good money. Like if you put in the hours, You could work whenever you want. You could go to a cinema twelve
at night and get people if that's what you felt like doing. And I liked the freedom of it, and they started to ship me off to other cities. So what would happen is you would get like a demographic. You would say, hey, I remember the Ring was an early one. The first ring, I went to San Diego, and they wanted high school age girls and boys. So we would go to high schools and we would talk to teachers and try to get like their perfect audience, and then they would
all fill out a questionnaire and the filmmakers get a score. Basically, the main score is like how many people rated it very good or excellent. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. That's like the number one score because they can really say, oh wow, we have a movie that super plays. And then the other score is like how many people recommend it? Because sometimes they'll like it, but
they won't recommend, which can impact the box office. So I just went on this run for like four years of just a different city every Friday. Because basically, if you're filling screenings. They need you, like they need people who are getting numbers, just like any sales job. And we were killing it. So I had this partner and we man we did the highest scoring movie just so people get an idea of like what studios really want. Was Hitch with Will Smith, Like I had never seen a movie score that
high. I think it was like ninety nine or near one hundred in both boxes. And Will Smith was out that screening. And you just gave these scores to Will and the direct and their faces because they know how key these scores are to the studio hits. Their faces just lit up like they won the Super Bowl. They were like yeah, like you can't get better than that. Like, and the movie was a massive hit because it's such a
such a crowd pleaser, you know. And I realized in these screenings, when you make something just that pleases the crowd, it's a really special thing because the drama is even when they're good, like Colling Brothers stuff, I don't know that they test so great because people need time to reflect. You
can't just put a paper in someone's space. Twelve Monkeys was one that didn't test well at all, but still had good particular acclaim and it has now become a hit, but people didn't know what to make of it from the first moment. So it's not conducive to like saying, yeah, I love this, because you're just like, WHOA, what the hell was that? I'm sure like two thousand and one, you know, wouldn't test well either, even though it's a complete classic, because these movies need more reflection.
And probably the coolest thing I've ever seen in the test screening was I was working on You Glorious Bastards here in La at the I forget what theater it was, but nobody had seen the film, and Quinton, being who he was, and Harvey would generally bully when I worked for Harvey would generally bully filmmakers. He would use the scores to get to cut the movie. He did, so Quenton just took all the cards when they were done, through them in the trash right in front of Harvey and said, I'm just going
to talk to the audience about my film. And it was so great and so refreshing to see a filmmaker just so proud of his work. He didn't even want to see the scores. I mean, I would never recommend this to it a young filmmaker that has an opportunity unless your name is yeah.
But it was cool. Finally, a guy in the audience like had the current to say, hey, like, I don't know why you would use a David Bowie song in a period movie, and he goes because I'm the director and I love it there like and they were like, okay, cool, okay, cool. Yeah, that was nice. But that's pretty fascinating. Now. I've heard those stories of Harvey during his heyday that he would
bully filmmaker. I know Studio fifty four was a really big one. He just literally just took that away from the filmmaker and cut it up and made it into something that it really did. It wasn't good. Later years later the director got a chance to do a director's cut, but yeah, And I'm imagining other studios and studio executives would use the test screening result the kind
of bully or push around directors to get what they want right. Yeah, And to be fair, sometimes the film is just not working and right see it. And they thought they had a crowd pleaser. They thought they had a genre film that scared people, and it wouldn't work, so the directors would come in and recut it. I al started working for jud Apatol a
lot of I did the first test screening of Forty year Old Virgin. It was it was awesome because we were in a thousand oaks and the film broke and there was only like ten minutes left, like everything had been resolved, and everybody just stayed glued to their seats. And I remember I was sitting near Seth Rogan. I said, man, like, you are going to
be massive after this movie. You could just feel it the energy. But Judd was really good because he's a comedy guy, so he could read the audience and he could do a second test screening with a couple the key jokes and just tweak them in the editing room or reshoot something, and then the crowd would explode. So for comedy, I think test screening is like so
essential, even even on that level. But did you also see multiple test screenings on the same film, So like you would see the original a test bad, they go back, shoot, re edit, come back and get it. Like, did you go through that process too? Yeah? For Knocked Up, it didn't test bad. His film's never tested bad. But the ending was a boy I think in the original in it it was like a dick joke. I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but
I don't think jud would mind. He's such a cool guy. And it was like you had so much of that the whole whole movie that when he changed it to a girl and he had the ability to read the screening and make that adjustment, and it just made you leave with this kind of like warm feeling, not just a joke. I thought that was pretty brilliant that
he made that adjustment. And I saw that a lot with filmmakers that were open to the test screening and those where the filmmakers and studios really wanted to work with because they they knew that their their their film could be changed. And when when a director was new and they were too married to it, I found like wow, like a lot of guys never worked again after bad
test screatings because they were they were inflexible with their with their film. You said you also worked on The Departed, right, Yeah, with with with a young and up and coming director at the time, Martin Marty Marty something like that. So Scorskezy, what was it so I'd love to because he is legendary for being man on a tour, like, truly, you're not touching a frame of my movie. So what was the test screening of like a legend like that was? And was he in the room? Did you?
Oh? Yeah, that was exciting man, because of course I'm a huge like the Fellas is for me, like one of the tops, like I mean, he just he just hits on runs like that's what he does. So I was so excited. And we were in Chicago at this cool art house theater, but he had been so like nervous about that he told the projectionists not to start the film until he gave the okay, but nobody could find him, and it was my job to find him. So I'm
running around the theater looking through seats. All the lights are already down, like the movie is ready to go. And then finally I find him and I get on the wire and I'm like, hey, I'm here with Martin, and the projection goes, okay, cool, we can roll now.
So he had already talked to his technicians and make sure like on his command only to go, and the movie was almost exactly what came on the final screen there was there was a few key scenes where Jack Nicholson was really improvising that I noticed were a bit shorter, and I thought that was a really smart move on his part because you could kind of feel like, oh, this is great acting, but the story wasn't moving at the same pace that
it was. And it was really interesting for me that he even he who was you know, such a Martin. Yeah, and his famous editor Elma was there, so that was awesome. Man. That was also so Jack because I know in that movie Jack Nicholson, he would kind of you know, I think you do a take or two or how many takes of the script, and then Marty would go go nuts and see what you have, and a lot of that did. The improvised stuff did fall into the in
the movie, and it's such gold because it's Jack Nicholson riff. But if you saw that first cut before, like it was like that like in a few Moneys with a couple of minutes extra, which I love, but I realized, like, I mean, he won the Oscars for that, so he could feel you know, it's so interesting when when you're in the movie house you can just kind of feel the energy dropping you know, which is funny that I made such an art film get away if you can, because
this movie would never test well like the movie you don't make. But I just needed maybe all that testing. I needed to express myself in an artistic kind of way. You know, how and how what lessons did you learn from that test screening experience as a filmmaker yourself? I think when I'm writing in my hope started to make a bigger budget movie to really think of the audience, you know, like, really think of how you're making people feel
if you're trying to scare them, really get that right? Is it like you're you're writing for the audience in a way. You know, film is a business, and these big budget movies need an audience. And it really taught me that the audience is unforgiving. Even with a free movie. They would leave often, you know, they would say, hey, this movie
is not for me. And sometimes you'd be dealing with like a half a theater and you would realize, like, these guys have spent millions and millions of dollars, these are not small movies, had made a complete flop, and you know, if you're not thinking of the audience, there are certain budget levels you can get away with art, right, but when you're doing these big films, man, you need to deliver. And what was the
worst screening of a big movie that you ever were on? Come on, you could say, I mean, look, you're that test screening anymore? It was it was a DC comment that never got another one made. But I like the filmmaker a lot, but it was like a true disaster and it was his first feature and he didn't want to make any of the notes with the studio and he never got to do it, like they took a huge risk in hiring him. And did that movie get released? That movie,
yeah, I got released. That got released. I'll just say it was a DC comic hero not in the main months. But but it was quite sad because they put a lot in. There was some innovative stuff with the sounds and the music, but it just didn't deliver. And some of the effects semes were laughable, so the whole audience would laugh, and not a good way. And instead of cutting that, which they should have done,
they left it in. And it's just it really took people out because you know, if you don't deliver great CGI with these big h Timple movies. That's where people are judging the visuals right, So it would have been so much smarter just to cut it out. But you know, it was just it was quite sad because he was about my age, and I just saw him just bodding heads and I was like, this is not going to end well for this guy. You know, we'll be right back after a
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I mean, if you're a Ridley Scott or Martin Scorsese, you can get away with that because you've already had decades of creating behind you. But when you're first up, man you and you get a shot like that, you gotta play You got to play ball. It's a balancing act where you need to protect your you know, your artistic you know, artistic integrity. But at the end of the day, people are spending god God, just hundreds of like fifty
million, one hundred million dollars. You kind of helped it. This was over us, and he had the audience telling him too, like we do like overwhelmingly this scene is laughable. Cut it, take it away. But it's just, you know, sometimes the filmmaker stubborn thiss like you like it and you don't care that the whole world and maybe your career is never going to get another shot like that. Yeah, I mean yeah, no, no, no, no, I feel bad. I feel what did he
what did you do it? On his battle hat? It wasn't at all like taking notes. It was just like I am battling and that's that. And you know, never got a chance to make a big studio movie again. And I mean that's why I feel so bad for the guys who did Backgirl. I mean, that's that's unheard of. I like, even bad movies get dropped into streaming. Why would they? I don't have to shell of one hundred million dollars? And Michael Keaton was back for God's sake,
Batman, Like, what is going on? Even if it doesn't play like, you have so many fans that are gonna check it out and comment on them and talk about it. The released cat Woman, I mean, is it worse than cats? Like? How much worse can it be? The cat or cats? Let's just put cats out? How much worse it going to be the cats? For God's sake? Yeah, And you have like
a thirsty film audience for it too. So even if it's bad. It's like you're gonna have people watching it, and that's the main thing with streaming is you want eyeballs in time. So that would surprise me. I think if they really actually, if they decided right now they just say, hey, you know what, we're putting it on HBO backs. Do you know how many people would just watch it just that weekend on Twitter would just be talking about this movie. It would it would trends, as the kids say,
it would be trending. Uh so is there is Do you have an insane story like it? Just like I can't believe this happened in one of these screenings? Well yeah, I mean the Quentin was pretty awesome because I was like, wow that some day to have that power as a creative force. But I had a really good one which was kind of sad too, with Denzel Washington. He directed a movie called The Great Debaters and that scored
really, really high. But at the same time he had that movie where he was she was like a criminal kingpin coming out in All American Gangster. Yeah totally, but he didn't direct that one. He was It was a really really so all the energy of his directorial debut went to that film, and even when I was testing it, everybody's like, no, I don't want to see that Denzel one. I want to see that that crime one. So even though that movie scored super high, audiences didn't come out for
it. But I remember like working with like Denzel's election and I had the cards and He's like how much to make those all good? And I'm like, we don't need anything, like they're wonderful, Like people are really loving your film. But it also taught me that people can love a film, but if it's not hitting the right marketing or it's just not the timing that you know, it can still not be a financial success, even with Denzel promoting it. And I didn't don't think he acted, he only directed it.
Now did you? Did you also work with the Academy? In some way I heard you say, yeah, I had a job. One of my early peers had a job right out of film school like hosting talent coordination
on the red carpet. So he would basically hire you as a page for the Oscars and the Emmys, and you would you would on Friday, you would get like a program of the whole show and you would see like three celebrities that you were in charge of making sure they were on camera when they needed to be, and that would include like meeting them on the red carpet
and greeting them. And you know there's every every now and then there's like a person who doesn't show up when the nomination and that's that's my job. Like somebody screwed up in my job, because that's highly coordinated. So like why they shouldn't be in the bathroom is what you're saying, Yeah, exactly, and they should know exactly, Hey, your your awards coming up, or you're presenting into commercials, we take them to the green room, or
the producers really wants you at the start of the show. And that was insane because I started that in my early twenties. That I remember early on. Russell Crowe was one of his first years at the Academy Awards. I forget if it was Beautiful Mind or or what came first, but they really wanted him at the head of the show. But his publicist was having him do like interview after interview and it's like, okay, like we're three minutes
to go. They just said, grab Russell. We don't even care if he's in an interview, so I, being the good employee, just grabs his arm interview turds like he's going to punch me in the face. And I was like, oh my god, like I'm about to get hit on Maximus totally. I think this was maybe even pre pre Gladiator. But but he said, what do you want? Why are you bothering me? And I said, no, I worked for the show, Like, if you don't get your ass in the seat right away, you're gonna miss the whole
opening of the show. And he's like, oh, and she just tell me that, right, come on? And I ran him in and Entertainment Weekly the next day was a shot at him looking at me and you could see me in the corner like like this like really small, and nobody knew the context of it, but it was really crazy. And but I that could have been, like I could have been that guy. You know, that's everybody would have been talking about that. The next day, Russell knocks
out a page on the red carpet. So in your new film, it's called get Away, if you can tell me the journey of this seven year because you know, I'm all about filmmakers making their movies and I know we're all nuts, you know we're crazy, But when you get to the seven year mark at a certain point, you just got to go, this is this? Really? Should I keep going? You know? You did you finance the how did you remortgage? Did you finance the house? Did you
give me your first born? Like? What was it? What was the journey? Why did it take so long to get up up and running? Well? I had, you know, through all the screenwriting and nothing selling, through managers taking my scripts out. I wrote a script about The Donnor
Party in my mid twenties. I had this like stupid goal that had to make a feature by thirty, you know, like of course, and I finally did with The Donnor Party. But instead of doing it on my own credit cards, I ended up taking other people's money, who then had final cut. So basically like, even though I put together the cast, we had Garry Oltman at one point wanting to do that movie, we had some really strong interests, but I gave up final cut and I didn't know how
dark a place that would take me to to see producers making choices. It's all subjective, but that I did not agree with at all, and then have that movie come out and sell the show time and it was an early streamer on Netflix, so it did get a platform. But I was really disheartened, and I said, I'm never going to do that again. Even if a movie takes me thirty years, my next one is going to be
one hundred percent. And I fell in love. I found the love of my life with the swoman Dominique, and she She's like the kind of person that I would watch a movie with and we would both get annoyed with the same plot lines and get excited about the same movies. So I thought, hey, like our taste really lines up. Like what if we just did a project together, travel the world, go to different islands, so it's not a total loss. Like the movie set mostly on this island off the
coast of Chile, but we went to Kawai first. We did like a year of scouting, you know. And even if I have to put my own finances and take it lost, we don't have any children at this point,
Like it's going to be a great life experience. And when we did the rough cut, it was just her and I and we submitted that seven years ago to Sundance and like right before they made their announcements, they got like one hundred views and we were like, oh, man, like Sundance is really considering our video, like and then we got a letter from the head at that time saying, hey, like you just missed it, Like, guys, like there's something here, don't give up on this project.
And we were like, okay, cool. Like I had I had met Ed Harris to You're a Pollock at the Academy Awards, and I knew I could get him that footage. So I said, hey, like, what do you think of Ed Harris? And my wife was like The Abyss is my favorite movie, Like, let's do it. So we had to configure what we had shot to work at in but we had sent it to Ed and didn't hear anything for like four months, and finally I get this little handwritten letter saying, hey, guys, I got your link. I started
watching your movie. I'm intrigued, but I can't figure out how the link works. Sent it to me again and we were like, oh my god, we have a chance. And he watched it and he said, hey, like, let's meet for breakfast next day. And after breakfast he said, I was meeting you to tell you I'm doing this show Westworld. So this was the first time he was and I won't have time to do it. But after meeting with you guys and seeing how you're going to fit my
character in, I'm down. You just have to give me a year. So that was a full year of just waiting for him, you know, fair enough, but we were like, we have an icon now, like we have Ed. He's really supportive of division. He wouldn't have done it if we hadn't shot that stuff, you know. So we knew that we thought we had something special and Ed did too. So this encouragement kept us going. But when we cut the Ed cut, it fell so into the
male energy, which we didn't want. We wanted it to be very balanced. So we had to find an actress to play Dominique's sister, and we actually she's from Argentina, so we ended up testing Martina Guzman, who's one of the top Argentine actresses and they have a really similar likes. But that took a long time because she has a Netflix she has two Netflix shows she does and she was into it. But again it was I think waiting about
a year. So that's another year of waiting and then a whole editing process. And then it was only during the pandemic when Domie and I finally like said, hey, we agree with this cut. We had been through a lot of editors and we just we couldn't get the story to where we both felt it was everything it could be. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And during the pandemic
we finally did. We had an editor named Ross who who really came in and talked to us quite a bit and worked with us, and we finally got it to where we said, hey, like, we're happy with this, let's let's take it to market. So after so what are you doing these seven years to survive? Brother? You're living in La right, I mean, like are you doing the page? You're not doing paid stuff anymore obviously, No, that was that's just a temporary job. Actually, it's
a funny story. Man. The guy who I tested who was the best test screener, Like he could just he was like a term itlated. He would just go and get hundreds of people and he was my partner on the road. But he was like a total gambling at So we would go to Vegas for like long stretches. Adam Sandler love to test his movies at this place called Samstown, which is off the strip. It's like this, but it has an AMC in it, So he did all his movies there.
So I'd be stuck in Vegas with gambling at it for weeks. I would go and you know, play blackjack with him every now and then and lose and just say, hey, I hate It's like I don't want to gamble at all, Like I'm not into it. And he said, well, why don't you try poker, man, Like you can really beat the game. And I said, really, I don't know much about poker. But it was starting to like blow up at that time, and because we had
so much downtime, I started to read books on poker and it. You know, within a month or two, I was making double what I was making testing and I could make my own hours. So so you became a professional gambler. Yeah. This was like the early two thousands, and the games were just rich, like even in Hollywood. I would go up and actors wouldn't even know like anything about poker, and it was just like a
free for all during that time. And I would just start going to like, I don't know, if you know the commerce, it's like the biggest poker room in the world. It's right off the five right, and hear in commerce like La was the home of poker even before Vegas. Yeah, so, I mean I just put all that into the film really and I thought, hey, it's funny. So so okay, I got it.
I got it. Okay, us back up here for a second, because I've heard of I've heard a lot, man, I've I've done almost almost nine hundred of these at this point in my in my career here as a podcast or an interviewer. I've never heard. I've had professional gamblers on the show, some actors who actually became really good and they've got into the world series of actors of a poker Poker. Yeah, of poker, So I know of the world. But I've never heard of a filmmaker becoming a professional
gambler and using that to survive and to make a movie with. Yeah. I mean for me, it's like, I'm not a gambler. That's why I'm so good at poker, Like the gamblers are why you make money. Like I'm just sitting there, I'm playing the odds. Your professional you're a
professional poker player, not a professional gambler. All the all the the regulars would make fun of me because my wife would make me like an organic sandwich and I would take out my sandwich and listen to calm music and they would be like, you don't even try to pretend you're a gambler, and I wouldn't. I would just sit there for seven hours and eight for big hands, and at that time, I don't know if you still could be.
I think everybody's gotten quite better at poker, but there are those that just blow off steam and want to gamble, and that's kind of what you're looking for. You go on Friday, Saturday, Sundays, and that's pretty fit, that's pretty fascinating. And then you would go back up with the hills and stuff like that, the actors houses and stuff. Yeah, I would, but you know, those those games can be quite dangerous, like I've had I've had a really famous actor that I used to play with, you
know, rob at gunpoint at one of those games. Like people find out those games are going on and they can be robbed, and you know, you don't have like the safety of the casino to resolve disputes, you know, like actually got into a really really big fight, got thrown through a window and had to choke out this pretty well known actor over a poker dispute. We will we will discuss who that actor is off. Yeah you all like that. I say I choked him because he's kind of a tough guy.
But it was either that or just kept pummeled to We'll tell Russell pro next time. You shouldn't be I just don't love joking. I'm joking. No, that's really that's really fascinating, man. I've never I've just never heard that. I've just never heard the filmmaker doing that. So that's yeah, do you filmmakers, filmmakers out there. I don't recommend this because you have to have a certain makeup. You have to like love chess, you have to love game theory. You can't be a gambling at it. You
will just lose all your money. You have to, just like anything, put in the work. You know, I read five of the top books of the time before even do you do you still do it? Yeah? You know sometimes, but you know the movies now kicking in where we're hoping that keeps me off the table. I mean, that's fascinating because I mean I understood that Poker is you know, a game that you can kind of
understand and it's there's there is some chance. But if you're looking at how the how the table is being laid out, you can you can actually it's it's you can actually make it a go of it. I'll be a profession out of it. Yeah, And after a while you develop a data so you see like you have an edge even higher than the house edge that Biggas has over the gambers, like ten to fifteen percent edge and the good games
that can go even higher. So it's just like if you know what you're doing, it's just you know, there's there's no losing because you just have to put in volume to cover the losses. But any night, you know, you get aces, you get it all in and you lose. You got to be cool with these people when they do that, because that's how you're making money. You can't get frustrated with people for breaking your good hands. You know, that's that's that's why you're making money at it. That's
fascinating, dude, So you got it. So I want to talk to you about as a director, you've got Ed Harris on set, who's an absolute legend. There's a you know, in the trailer alone of your film, there's some intense scenes with Ed Yeah, where he is yelling at you only the way Ed Harris can yell on screen. He's such a great yell. Oh my god, that's great. Right. How can you cast him and not get some anger out of it? Like when he like that? When I when I heard that, I'm like, oh my god, it's
the rock, oh rock, Like it's just like the yelling. So that so one, how do you approach directing an icon like that who's honestly coming down from the Mount Hollywood and doing a little indie film because he kind of you know, I enjoy it. I think we could do some cool stuff here. But he's doing it out of just truly love. So it's not like he's getting a paycheck out of this major paycheck approach directing, you know,
an actor of that caliber. Well, what I loved about it is he directed Pollock and he started it himself, So he's like really sympathetic to our journey as independent filmmakers. He volunteers at the Sundayance Labs every year. He's He's really a good soul of support. But you know, as far as having him on set, I was really glad that I was playing a submissive character to him because I could feed into that energy as an actor.
There was one really key scene in the office, like very close to where, and I hope Ed won't mind me telling the stories that really helped the scene become better. And I was super nervous and I'm saying action and he's not coming, and I'm like, oh man, this is the big scene. Is he even hearing me? And it's like a minute goes by, two minutes ago by I say action again, and then all I hear is I hear you, motherfucker. And he comes bareling in and does the scene.
So the reaction you see is not just acting. It's like he shocked me into the emotion that was needed to that scene. And afterwards he smiled and he said was that cool? And I was like, Yeah, that was awesome. Man. I looked at the footage and that was what we had used. And he wasn't afraid to take those kind of chances, and
you know, we were open to them. We had like worked on the script a lot at his house, but he knew it needed something that felt felt stale a bit, you know, and he injected that energy into the scene. And I really thank him for it, because that's what you're saying,
that yelling scene. That look on my face is not just acting, you know, it's doing it. Yeah, and me being like, holy, like I didn't know if like I shouldn't say action like I would like my brain was just doing a millionferent things and that was the energy that was needed for that scene. So I thought that was really generous of him. And you know, he's he's a good guy. Like for him to play this character too, that is a bit controversial in this political time period.
You know what what was was generous of him because he's not like that at all in real life. Like he's so supportive and cool and he I mean, he's I mean, it's you're releasing the film on the tail end of one of the biggest movies of the last the Last, and he's in it. He's in Top Gun and he plays he's just so good man, he's just so good, so good he just choose up the scenery with his performances
and I mean he's just remarked he's just a remarkable actor. Is there anything that you took away from him as as a as a creative From an acting standpoint, I learned so much because I acted when I was younger, but I was never a big into like driving across town to audition. I just thought it was such a lottery ticket that I've had friends become successful at it, but they really put in the time, and I much rather write or
do projects on my own. But what Ed does that I found really helpful is he actually does the scene before the scene of the movie, so through improv, he wants to like play that scene out so he knows how to go into that scene. So when we did the dinner scene, like we say, oh, hey, Dad, how are you making steak? Come
in? So we kind of like lead up to that scene and that that was really helpful to make sure when you're in the scene, it's not just figuring it out, Like you've already come to that energy and I haven't set but yeah, oh really, so you like like you yell action or you like work it before the scene. No, just in a casual kind of way. So it was like, hey, like what happened five minutes before
we get into the scene and we do like a little improvisational exercise. And I find that really helpful because then when you get to the scene, like the energy is already built to there. You're not just like starting full scratch. Yeah, and it doesn't take that much It doesn't take that much time. And ed it must have developed that technique somewhere and we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. That's something
I'll take with me forever. I thought that was a really good way to go. I've never heard of that technique. That's a really really good technique thinking about that, because a lot of times you as a drugon action and you're just like like start looking at each other like like you've got to rev
yourself up to it. So at least if you have some context of what happens before and after the scene, yeah, and you're not like nailed down to like the reality of the script, right because you're just improvising the energy of it. You know, you're not shooting them. So it's like a kind of a free, fun exercise. And that's something man, that was great. I mean, working with him was just so good because he's a filmmaker too, so he's constantly seeing it from that side. And I had
a great time on the dinner party. Of the actors were more like into the idea of my character this that, which is typically how you go and I came away from that with a much different experience, like I only want to work with people who really get the overall wanted the story, that you can talk with deeply about the themes and ideas and not just their character, but how it all relates to the greater, greater whole. That's fantastic.
Now as directors, I asked this question often on the show. You know, as directors, we all have that day that the entire world has come down crashing around us. It's usually every day, but there's the one day. What was that day for you and how did you overcome it? Oh? Man? Well, we shot on this island called Robinson Crusoe, which we as filmmakers talked this guy into giving us or renting us their yachts and getting and told the captain, hey, yeah, we can handle open.
See like we've never done it before, but I'm sure we'll be fine in two days. I mean, it was like a four day journey and about half an hour in, I wanted to start shooting right away in our editor's face just like turns completely white. And by the end of the by the midpoint, he was coughing up blood and it was very scary, and I just thought, oh my god, I'm actually like, people are going to
die in a movie like this is a disaster. And by the time we got to the island, we had already crossed the halfway point, so we couldn't turn back. So as soon as he hits land, he gets to a phone and he calls me, calls his girlfriend and Buenisarius, and he says, I'm so sorry for everything I've done. My life flashed before my
eyes. I'm going to be a better man. And the whole energy of us, our crew, our small crew going through that just made everything a breeze because people really had like this profound sea journey, you know that they really thought like maybe they wouldn't come out of it. So so that was a very scary day. I mean, if I think if we hadn't crossed the halfway threshold, we might have it turned back and certainly wouldn't have the
movie that we do have. And I have to ask you man, because you know, being doing an independent film is tough enough, but you decided to do it in nature. Yeah, you decided to go on boats in an island and and then and going underwater and surfing and all this kind of stuff like, yeah, you don't do If Jaws taught us anything is don't shoot on the ocean. I mean that they didn't mean come on, So how was what was that like on a limited budget? I mean it was
a struggle. But that's the kind of stuff we'd love to do in life. I mean, not to that extent we now know, like the voting part is not a fantasy of ours. But we thought, if we're going to pay for a film, like, let's have these experiences that we'd like to have in real life as a couple together, and then we'll make a film too. So even if the film doesn't have any success, will have had these amazing experiences. And I love being outside, I love surfing.
My wife is an advanced scuba diverse So all that stuff you see with the seals is all one hundred realistic. Did you get the seal? Did you get the seals in? Did you fly those in? From la We had a seal wrangler. You know. We actually had a local guy that was like, yeah, the seals bite people all the time, so that was like the extent of our wrangling was like, Okay, let's go for it. This is the insanity of being an artist, and especially the insanity of
being a filmmaker. Like a filmmaker, normal people don't do this. We were also able and filmmakers can maybe other filmmakers can benefit from this. We were able to take from Argentina some of the most talented people of the Argentine industry and their rates are just not Hollywood rates. So you're getting a guy and my guy, Lucino, he shot forty fifty movies that are good movies in Argentina, been to festivals all around the world. But you're getting a
much different rate than Hollywood union rates. So we were able to keep the budget low. And I'm I'm sure any country that makes films, probably in India, you can also find talented people. Know, you can look outside the Hollywood channels. Absolutely, I know a lot of filmmakers who have done that shooting outside and that there's a lot of talented grew around this world. Doesn't always have to be Hollywood other than seal wranglers. You need from Hollywood
without question. And the financing of the film was also financed by you. Yeah, it was all self. When we got ahead, we had to go sag. So we actually took on some executive producers, but the same problems started to happen where they're on it to even though they promised to say we won't have any creative input, it's just the nature of when you take money from someone, you you have to invite that. And this project wasn't
that. It was a passion project for my wife and I, so it wasn't one that they could kind of massage into being too much of a thriller or this. So we ended up buying them out once once we knew like we were going to kind of put out the movie, and you know, in a way that we weren't getting like a ton of money up front, because that's still what a lot of producers want, even though that's very rare.
I learned that from your show like Donner Party, I think was like a quarter million dollars up front, you know, so that at least what year was that what you Yeah, exactly so, but producers still think that's going to happen now. And from your show, I learned like, not only you don't want that, because you want an honest distributor and you want
your ceiling to be much higher than that. And if your movie catches on and you have eighty percent of it, like you can still stand to do do really, by the way, out of that quarter million for Donner Party, how much more did you get after that? I get nothing, exactly gave that's the game. They're like, yeah, we're buying your movie for two We're not telling you were buying it, but we're gonna still just that's all you'll ever see. Yeah, And I didn't even have a point on
it. It was just like a four higher job, even though I basically did a lot of the producing and I just totally didn't want to work that way again. It's like part of this learn the beauty of this industry is freedom for me. You know, I love making my own projects, and even if they don't sell or I don't get a chance to make a big studio movie, like, it's fun. Like it's an exciting and fun to do art and craft and story and the Hollywood interaction can be very disheartening at
times, you know, it's mostly rejection. Yeah. I try to keep my creative very separate, and over the years my ratio of like pursuing the industry has gone way down, just for mental health, you know. So the more I'm creative, the more I'm doing this. And even if it's just a hobby, which I hope it's not, it's fun, you know. Now, how did you get the distribution? Well, we had a
great lawyer. He's like started out on Monster and rather than then tried to showcase at festivals, he had given me the distributors that were doing very well during the pandemic and giving his clients accurate payoffs you mean money, actually paying their clients. Yeah, and not like a little bit of money, like a lot of money. And these are like indie films with one or two known guys, and this was his top one. And he said, do you mind if I just share the cut with Brainstorm? And I said,
yeah, yeah, sure, I'd like to go straight to distribution. I don't want to do this whole journey of trying to get into a great fest and sell it that way. And they liked it, and they said, hey, like skip it all let's just put it out and see what happened. So we were like, right on, let's do it, let's put it out, and we just depressed and some people the first waves were pretty negative, but now we're getting some braves, some people really responding to it.
So I think over the years we'll find our audience and at least if you get some percentage of people loving your film, that can be a lot, especially for an indie. And where can people see it? Well, it's on Apple TV, now it's on Prime, and then we'll find a streaming home down the road. I'm interested because of your show also on this ad revenue. Yeah, AVAD seems to be a way to make sense. So I'm sure we'll do that and then we'll end up, I'm sure at
some point with a streamer in a more long term kind of deal. I mean, there's no question that this kind of film will do very well with AVAD because it got it. Oh No, there's no question. You put Ed's face on the thumbnail and people are flying by and they're gonna he's so popular because of West World. He's just a legend because of who he is. You put his face on there with YouTube on there in the background, but it's and center sell him yeah, and you a thumbnail going by.
And I always tell people this, what do you do when you're watching, when you're going on Friday night you're screaming, You're going through your streamer, whether it's HBO or Amazon or Netflix or Hulu or whatever. What do you do you scan? And when do you stop? Either when you find something that's in a niche that you absolutely adore. So if you're a surfer,
you're going to watch a surfing documentary or surfing movie. If you're a skateboarder or things like that, those things might attract you, but generally it's a known face that you're like, Okay, I know because there's so much gluttony of product in the world right now that for me even to try for five minutes to try something that I'm not knowing, like, I don't know switch, I do the same thing exactly, but I got to the point where
I don't even try unless it's something I've heard about or I feel about. So that's why Adam Sandler has three picture one hundred million dollar deals every few years. Because Netflix knows that when you're there on a Friday night and I've done it. Man. I look, I love Adam Sandler films. I think they're fun, they're escapist, they're they're dumb and ridiculous and they're funny and they just they're just what they are. We'll be right back after a
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Yeah. There, they are what they are. They know what they are, and they try not to be anything else but totally. And when there's a Kevin James, a David Spade, a Chris Rock it was his name, the other guy from Bigelow, those guys, all the cats, ruption that are all the characters that are in the Adam Sandler universe. Sure, when you're scanning and you're like, oh, this is new Adam Sandler movie, I know
what I'm gonna get because it's safe totally. You know, you rarely watch it unless you watch something like Hustle, which was the new Adam Sandler movie. When he's a it's a drama, I love it. Yeah, I love he's a recruiter. I love what he does, like uncut jams to it. And of course the one who did Paul Thomas Sanderson like when he ventures into that he probably loses song of his core audience, but you can tell like he's really going for it. He's a great hitor too, and
he actually could play basketball. From what I understand, he's like a real like he actually played basketball. I heard he has a he has a court at his house and it's like a little Hollywood game that goes h Yeah. But when I was testing Adam movies, like the audience when you would come to them with an Adam Semi movie, their face would just light up with good vibes. So he earns that money because a certain percentage of our entire
country and world just loved the guy. You know, like he someone's watching him as much as he might be trashed out there like oh it's an Adam sadly go f yourself, guys, someone's watching him. Yeah, And critical response is so long. I mean they've they've missed it on so many great
classic movies. The first critical wave is very negative and it takes years, and Adam is going to go down as one of the top guys like Jerry Lewis, you know, like an icon of comedy, no matter how how the reviews were at the time, And you have to ask do reviews even matter anymore. I don't think so. They don't. They don't have the like the Roger Eber or time those thumbs could destroy a movie or or make make or break a movie. And then the time of any cool news when
that was a real sight that did a lot of big stuff. I mean, they destroyed Batman versus Robin like they they took down an entire studio movie because of what they did they said about it. These these days, there's too much content moving too fast exactly. You'd love for to get the tomato, But great movies don't get the tomato because the tomato is easy. It's almost like systemliber thumbs up, thumb down. You get, it's like, okay, it's interesting, right, and even then how many I mean,
yeah, it's nice. Look one hundred percent fresh. We all want one hundred percent fresh in our movies. Yeah, but generally speaking, it doesn't who like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's not. It didn't. It doesn't have to sway. I mean, people used to sit there and listen to Jean Siskel and Roger Ebert and whatever they said exactly moved the box office. They were they were our friends, right, They felt like friends of you who were talking movies to you, like that's how I felt growing
up. So when they really went and you could see the energy, it was like I have to see that. So but yeah, there's no reviewer now I think that commands that level. No, No, there's not even a website that really has that kind of juice other than Rotten Tomatoes, which is just basically a bunch of critics. Yeah, it's just aggregate. Really yeah, and then the audience, it's like it's a weird it's I don't know, I don't know. But anyway, we had we had one five
star that didn't even get to Rotten Tomatoes. And I'm trying to get this five star review there, and he reviews for a major newspaper, but for some reason, he's not a sanctioned Rotten Tomatoes viewer. But it's a shame because it was like a dude who really fell in love with Get it right if you can, that's awesome. These are the frustrations of filmmakers. I got a five star review, I can't put it up by a major newspaper. What that exactly? So I'm going to ask you a few questions.
All of my guests, if you've listened to the show. You know what these are, so you better be prepared. I do, what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to get break into the business today, I would say, fall in love with the process, you know, like, don't let the negativity can get in you. And I've seen it happen to so many people, and really not only like spoil your journey in this business, but spoil your life in a way. And if you fall in love with
creativity and writing and you keep that separate from the business. And I'm not saying don't put all the hustle you have into doing it, but really fall in love with that process and don't let anybody take that from me, be it writing, directing, acting, Like you can do those things on the cheap and have it not be related to your success financially. And I think that that's been a key for me and something I would recommend to every creative
person. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life. Work with good people. Man, even if even if man, I know how hard it is. But if you take money, as you know from taking money from the mob, it's not fit ll. I know, Hoche, I know how hard it is because it's a sign you just want the money to do your project. But if you put those blunders on, you can really screw up your
life or be killed. Literally. Yes, sir as, my book has a very how not to follow your filmmaking dream is I like to call it? Yeah, exactly. So if you work with good people, you end up happy and that's nice. And three of your favorite films of all time. This one is a tough one because I was going to tell you you should have a podcast just where you asked this question. It could be like five, bring up all your favorite guests and just talk about this. But
because I'm writing like a bigger budget thriller, I've been studying thriller. So I'm just going to give you the top thrillers of all time. And first is the sixth Sense, because I don't know if people now realize how big
that twist was. That's all anybody in film was talking about, was this twist to capture an audience's imagination with a twist like It's just I've been studying the script, reading it, seeing how it's been worked in, so I would say that's that's one two thousand and one, because it's I'm writing a sci fi thriller and that's got the science, but it's also got the thriller aspect, you know, the man versus technology, and it's just so beautiful,
like you can learn something new about it each time you watch it. And my all time favorite thriller is Hitchcock's Rear Window, and I've heard it's just impactably put together, beautiful cast, everything relates to the story. And because we get out out if you can, we're so free and improvisational. I want to do a movie where you just Hitchcock was the best at shot structure, you know, like every shot told a story and was related to
the next shot. And so I've been really studying that film. I just think it's a wonderful movie. My friend. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your insane journey, insane journey of making not only this film, but your journey through this business and how you've survived it because it is a it's survival and you're still at it, man, And I gotta give you props for that, because a lot of people would have quit a long
time ago, and We've just become a professional pokepilla full time. I'm exactly No, You're insane, and that's okay. That's what we are. We are insane creatures that just like no, No, I'm gonna make my movie. Even if I gotta take money from the Bob. Fine, I'll just do what I gotta do. But I appreciate you, my friend. I wish you the best of luck with your film. I hope everyone goes out and sees it. My friend, Thank you so much, Thanks a lot
of us. I want to thank Terrence so much for coming on the show and sharing his journey with the tribe today. Thank you so much, Terrence. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch his new film get Away if you Can, starring Ed Harris, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three fifty one. Thank you so much for listening, guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening at a bulletproof screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.