You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three forty eight. Cinema should make you forget You're sitting in a theater Roman Polanski broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we
really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari.
Now. Today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are. Actually break it down
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Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, today on the show, we have
an amazing filmmaker by the name of Scott Cooper. You may know his work from the Academy Award nominated film Crazyheart, which was his first script and his first directorial debut, and from there he's done films like Out of the Furnace, Black Mass with Johnny Depp, Hostiles with Christian Bale, Antlers, and the new film The Pale Blue Eye with Christian Bale and a cast that is
remarkable on Netflix. Scott and I had a fantastic conversation about how he got started, how he made the transition from actor to director, following your dreams, how to direct legendary actors. I mean, the casts in his films are just I can't even explain it. You have to see it when you watch these films. But we had a great conversation. I can't wait for you guys to hear it. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Scott Cooper. I like to welcome to the show, Scott Cooper.
Man. How you doing, Scott great? Thank you, Alex, thanks for coming on the show. Man. I'm a fan, man, I've been a fan for a while. Man, you're doing some really good work. Brother. Seriously, Man, thank you, Thanks Upper and Tougher. It's man, I can I was just talking. I was just talking to somebody a few minutes ago about how the movie business is changing so dramatically, even from when you made Crazy Heart to now getting somebody to the movie
theater. If Avatar is having a problem, I mean, you know, I suspect people go out for that film. I did know. I saw. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in my life. Like what what Jim did was, yeah, no problem, It's remarkable. But and it's doing well. But people are like, oh, it should be doing better. And there's a lot of pressure on a movie like that. But other than an Avatar and Top Gun last year, it's tough to
get people out to the theaters. Man, yeah. Well, in fact, maybe that was happening also a little bit before COVID, certainly accelerated during COVID. Look, it's expensive to get a center and dinner and parking,
and then the price of a movie. Maybe for the kind of movies that I make and some of my favorite filmmakers, perhaps the ticket prices should be lowered and then right will be more likely to come out, because there really is nothing like experiencing and in fact, the film will not have the same effect on you regardless support it is if you're watching it anywhere but in the center. But there's no there's no question, my friend. But but you've
lived a very interesting life in the film industry. You've you've you came up as an actor. So my first question, how did you and why did you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry. Well, look, it's uh, you don't choose your obsessions. Your obsessions choose you,
right, very much. So I also spent, uh, I was born and spent with a lot of my formive years in this kind of artistic crown jewel of Virginia called Avenue, Virginia, where the state theater is also a lot of great uh music comes out of that that region, the Mountain Empire, as well as a lot of arts and crafts. So the arts
were always a part of my life. My father would take me to see films at a young age at a local college, and then you know, when you're young and you're transfixed by that, and you also have spent time as an actor. At Christian Bale and I had discussed this that that that people who get into the film business aren't meant to have office jobs, and
I think I realized that at a young age. I also realized at a young age that there were actors who were a whole lot better at this vocation than I, Especially when you're on the other side of the camera and your first film is you know, you're you're recording Jeff Bridges for Posterity and Roberto fall And and Maggie Jill at Hank Colin Ferrell. That quickly makes you realize
that there are people who do it a whole lot better than you. And then my second film was Christian Bale and Casey Affleck and Woody Willem Dafoe and Sam Shephard and Forrest Whitiker and Zoey Saldana and then I'm like, Okay, I'm definitely not going to be an actor again. So but quite honestly, Alex, this is I mean, I couldn't imagine a better job than being a film writer film director. I mean, I suppose being Mick Jagger or Bono Eddie Vedder, you know, someone who's a rock star right and sings
to eighty one hundred thousand people on certain events. But I love being able to express myself as a filmmaker. I love the people that I've met over the course of my career. I mean, look, I've been for an actor with an unremarkable career, I have been incredibly fortunate as a filmmaker. I'll just say that. You know, it's it's interesting because a lot of people like you know, everyone could play basketball, you know, generally everyone
could pick a ball and try to make a shot. But we're not all Michael Jordan or Lebron James and well, and that's I think that's where you were at. Well sure, I mean, even Robert Duvall, who was my mentor and and expressed to me and still does how much he liked me as an actor. Jeff Bridge is the same thing but but I just have much more fun doing this. And and I never even really had a chance
to grow as an actor. I wasn't getting the kind of challenging parts that that I now write for actors, and I adoor actors and performance is critical to me, and and and and and working with actors that I've always uh uh admired uh and and you know, also being able to work with actors that teach me something, as Jeff certainly has, or Robert duball or or Christian or even Johnny Depp. So I'm blessed man. That's that's just the
truth. So at what point, because I'm assuming as you were going down the path as an actor, there might have been some rejection, not much, I'm sure, but some rejection. You know, the actor who isn't who isn't rejected a lot. Right. So I love Baneler and he started twelve, I mean so yeah, he had but he had a good start.
That's a little Spueberg a independent film thing he did. Yeah. But so when you're going so, when you're going through the acting process, at what point did you say, you know what, I'm not going to hit the All Star team as an actor. I want to jump to the other side of the ft, like, what was the point when you decided I'm
gonna write. I was just auditioning a lot and you know, kind of coming a bridesmaid coming in second and uh and and we're and and not getting the parts that made me want to become an actor in the first place. I think everybody who's you know, a young actor coming up in the nineties one you know a career at least I did, like Sean penn or de Niro, right or pack Himan a Paccino. So when you're not getting those parts and you're going up for leading men and you're not really loving but you
have to support yourself, it just ultimately the rejection. It's a lot. And I mean, look, we all get rejected, certainly in the art when you make things that take big risks, for sure. But it was really just the continual process of auditioning and films that I would have liked to have been in not getting parts in them, whether it would be then Redline
or Saving Private Ryan. And then I was doing a Western with Duval being directed by the great Walter Hill, who was also an mentor of mine, and Duvall said you know, you should really write something, And of course I ended up. At the time, I had spending a lot of time considering writing the film about Merle Haggard. He had too many ex wives. Getting the rights were difficult, so I ended up writing We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, Crazy
Hart and Duvall was the first person to read it. And and you know, Alex, the truth is when Jeff Bridges says yes to your film, it changes your life. And that's exactly what happened to me. So is that how you got the Because I was going to ask, like, you're basically a first time filmmaker at this point. Yeah, you've been on set for a long time, but you're about first time writer. That's all right. I've never directed a film, I've never directed a commercial, I've never
directed a high school play. But I know this world and I know that by surrounding myself with great collaborators, production designers, costumers, hammermen, women, that sort of thing, that I knew that I could tell this story. And Jeff, I remember it is though it were yesterday, And Jeff says, so this is your first time? Yeah, I said it is, he said, I've had a lot of success with first time directors, the Fabulous Baker Boys being one of them. Said I'm in And you know,
Alex at that point that my life is near the same. And so I have to ask you. First day on set, you're sitting you're the big man on your big man on campus, first day, how do you deal with not only the pressure of the first day and making sure that you make that first day, but you're looking through the lens and you see Jeff Bridges there like, and you're directing a legend, multiple legends by the way, in that film. Okay, how how do you deal with that as
a director? Well, you deal with it by forgetting to call cut. In my ad Karen and Chow was looking at me as the scene had finished, and I'm trans and this is the truth and I'm transfixed and and she looked at me and she said, and I said cut. That was and literally it was like, my god, I remember that night that Jeff Bridges is taking Dialogue what I have written and taking it to places that I never expected. And that's especially because I've written specifically for him. That's the sign
of a great actor. And now five films later, it's happened in every film, thankfully. So the one thing that's so impressive about your work, not only the writing and the directing, but the cast that you're able to attract is honestly unheard of. I mean, your second film, that list of actors, any one of them could have been the star, but a lot of them took secondary roles because they wanted to work on the project. How do you attract all of these? I mean, and it's film after
film after film after film. As I'm going through filmography, I'm just like, how the hell is this guy grabbing? I know it's the material, but like even good material doesn't attract a lot of times because of politics and schedules and this or that that is the case. It's difficult too, because all the actors that you're referring to, everybody else wants and right trying to fit them into a schedule is one of the it's difficult things to do about
making a film. But I think look, certainly the success of Crazy Hart has helped win. When your film, your first film is nominated for free oscars and wins a couple that certainly changes the calculus for everybody. Else when they see how wonderful Jeff is and Maggie and Colin and d Ball and on and on and on right, So that probably doesn't happen if that film doesn't
have the success that it did. And then Out of the Furnace had kind of like a murderer's row of actors that all of whom are you know, considered to be favorites of mine. So I think once those two films were made, I think actors felt like, you know what, he I can feel safe with Scott, because that's the key is to really make an actor feel very safe, safe to take big risks, knows that I'm going to protect them, not only on the day when we're shooting, but all so
in the cutting room. I think the actors that we're talking about know that I'm more interested in films that push me into an uncomfortable space. I've spoken to all of them about the great danger is really doing safe work where all of it the edges are sanded off, so that a lot of people will like your film, the Academy or people who are voting bodies, right, And I think they realize that those don't those concerns don't really concern me.
So it's all about telling a very honest story, a very authentic story, and a story that's not afraid to not let the audience off the hook. I think striving for consensus is not something that I tend to do. I don't make films out of fear, and certain actors respond to that. And so another thing about working with all of these amazing actors is I know that
all of them have very different processes. So as a director, I mean, as a director, how do you handle it when you have, you know, four or five different of these actors in a in a scene. You can't just yell out direction. You've got to kind of go first. I never do that. I owed a direction to actors that nobody hears but the actor. I'll make sure that exactly Mixer has turned off all Mike, so nobody even sat we'll hear the direction that I give Sam super Right or
Robert Duval Christian, whomever it is. I think, well, I don't think. I know, you have to be very specific with actors. Don't talk in the abstract. Uh, It's really about who is your character, what does the character want in the scene, what's the subtext? And again make them feel safe, safe and free to take big risks. And every
actor comes at a scene differently. A c Affleck and Willem Devote couldn't be more dissimilar in terms of react styles, and you have to on the day balance those styles to make sure that all ideas are welcome, but that we're all trying to serve the theme of the film and what's the subtext of a
theme. And then when you cast people up with Willem to Foe who's made out of probably one hundred films, or because she who's made fifty to Ball has made a hundred, I mean it's like, and I've said this before, it's almost as though you're like a jockey at the but I would imagine when to be at the Kentucky Derby. You're on the best and it's a little bit of guidance here, a little bit of guidance there, shown the whip, you know, and then let them run the rest of the work.
I mean, that's the key, is like not getting in their way and helping an asked, Ball would always say to me the key to being a successful director of performances, which is what I hope I am is knowing how to help an actor and he or she is in trouble. Now with Crazy Heart, you, I mean again, you're you're very rare example of your first film being nominated for three Oscars. It doesn't happen quite very often. How did you man? I got to be here? Yeah, that
was my question? How did you handle there? Not only the pressure, the accolades, the you're the greatest, the ego trips, being in the center of that hurricane, and then after winning, you know, the film, winning a few a couple of Oscars, and how the town treated you because how it was a dangerous place. And and but you already had been in town a bit as an actor, so you've seen a few things that I'm oh, yeah, So how did you deal with it? Man?
Well, by making a film that was the complete polar opposite, which was Out of the Furnace, which you know, I hope to make as an giant prime film, right, that that would remind me of a smaller version of The Deer Hunter. Right, And you feel like, okay, well, you're definitely not going to sand off the edges. You're not going to strive for consensus. You're going to make a film that is as hard hitting
as the people experience who actually live there. Right. And fortunately that's where Christian and I met in Braddock, Pennsylvania Mayor John Fetterman, who's now the Senator from Pennsylvania, right, And I know how tough it was to live in a place like that probably still is in brad it. So if you're being authentic to telling the story, that's really the key, and you don't worry about what others will say, You don't worry about what Academy voters will
say, you don't worry about what critics say. Because if you look at most of Stanley Kubrick's films, they were not well received when they first came out, all of them, almost I think all of them Unionesty, were not well received. And time is what settles the store, right. So often you see movies that go on to win Oscars and receive acclaim and you watch them two, three or four years later, if not sooner, you've
been and you realize that they don't really hold up. Right. So if you're if you're playing, and these actors that I work with know that you're playing for the long game. And really, what what means something to me is that when when I hear from people who are also filmmakers who have responded to me, whether it's Bogdanovitch with Crazy Heart, whether it was Michael Chimino
calling me, or or William Freakin after seeing Out of the Furnace. You know, Michael Mann, who is has been very kind to me, Mike Nichols, like all of these people that I admire who really reach out to you after seeing your films and and and continued, you know, applaud you to continue to push. How how do you as a I mean, as a filmmaker. There's so many traps with that because you know, when you're getting your you're basically the people you admire falling you, telling you that you're
great and to keep going. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. The ego has to fall into how do you keep that in place, because that's a problem when you have so much James the Arc, Yes, and you have to. Of course, my wife would disagree with saying that I feel like I have no ego. Wife do that, yes, But ultimately it's really about serving the story,
about telling the stories that that you want to tell. And you and Alex, what you try to do is try to keep ego out of any decisions that you make, which is often very difficult for artists to do, whether you're a painter or whether you position, you know, whether you're a filmmaker. Jeff Bridges said to me, I don't care what happens to a movie when it comes out in terms of winning awards. That that the reward is in the journey for him, and it's the experience and the more movies
that I make that's the truth. It's when you and a group of gifted collaborators are are all striving for the same goal, and I think that's really important. I think also I have tended to her to figure out how to how to tell the truth about how tragic and unfair life is without losing hope. You know, most narratives lie to the audience about how life works out and shocking. Yes, and Hollywood does that. No, you're kidding me, Yes, So that's their bread and butter, it is. Yeah.
So for me, really it's it's it's about, you know, working through the difficulties in my life by dressing them through art. Fair enough, fair enough. Now, the one thing that's not spoken of a lot about in the filmmaking space, especially in the film schools and for young filmmakers coming up
is the politics of the set. As a first time director, you know, you have collaborators who you might have chosen wrong, you know, incorrectly that you didn't align with what you wanted, or try to enforce their vision on top of the director. To have you dealt with any of that, and if you have, how did you overcome it? No, frankly I haven't because I didn't think so, having not gone to film school. Actually,
all six of my films have been incredibly harmonious. Now I work with the same crew largely over and over because we have a shorthand, and you know, my films are not inexpensive, and every moment counts in every minute is you know, you can just hear the dollar signs. I think it
was Kubrick again who who said that. Actually prepping as much easier editing as you're much more relaxed, But when you're shooting, it's like you're in this cauldron of fire because you have to make so many decisions every day and you're dealing with production designers, actors, cameramen and women, sound everything is coming together at once. So the key is how do you hire people that see the world as you do, who will make push you to become a better
filmmaker. Because I didn't go to film school, and all of my film school is reading as much as I can about film directors watching their movies over
and over and over with the sound off. How do they move the camera most importantly when they don't move it, how they use composition and missle scene and lighting staging to help tell a story, And which is more and more difficult because we're living in the most impatient of ages, because yes, right, and because we're getting our instanment in social media, we're getting instant gratification
constantly, and that we were no longer patient. We have to really resist that when you're making a film, because you want to put an audience today in from of two thousand and one, Oh, I do what that was Barry Lyndon the Odd Father even and they'd never heard of these actors or seen that. People would find it it's painfully slow, boring, and if they were watching home, they would turn it off. Not everybody, but a lot of people. And you have to resist that. You have to say
Okay, well this is the story I'm telling. People might find it to be a slow burn, but I've said this before. Making you know, experiencing a film in a cinema is not like getting an enema. You don't want to want it to get over as fast as possible. Luxuriate in Stanley Kubrick's world, or in Jane Campion's world or countless other filmmakers that have inspired me for years. Right, that's the key. So so it's really about
trying to essue any ego. Hire people that see the world as you do, know their work incredibly well, take meetings with them, and then you'll just learn to push one another. I mean, even when you work with trusted collaborators, there will be moments on set where there is storm underin. As the director and is the and as the producer, you have to be able to solve those issues. You also have to be open and realize that all ideas are welcome, and that is the key. You can't only just
say it's my way. You have to very strong vision, but it's clear that there are people that you hire who will bring ideas to make you're not only a better filmmaker, but makes the film better. Now, how do you approach the writing process because your work is so character driven? How do
you just deal with the writing processes? Quite quite frankly, and I work very long stretches from early in the morning through lunch, take a break, and then get back at it, because I do kind of what Copola did, which is like this vomit draft where you don't go back and edit. You literally write the story from page one to page one to twenty however long it is, without going back to edit and reading it, and it very often will be terrible to see if this is a story that you would want
to race out to see on Friday night. That's my litmus test. And before I became a writer, I would study Robert Town's work. I would study Freakin's work. I would study the network, Pattishis whoever, and I would try to understand these are all people who write characters. How is it that they're telling the story largely through subtext, and they're telling it visually, they're telling it with spare dialogue, all these sort of things that you just
keep writing. Writing is rewriting, and eventually you come to a place where we feel like you can share a screenplay with Robert Duval, who was the first one to read Crazy Heart. Or now the person who reads all my scripts, whether he's in them or notaa's Christian Vale, right. Christiano's been making films since he's twelve. He'll tell you if the story of the character
is working quickly. And it's great to have. And I'm very fortunate to have those kind of trusted collaborators who read my things and help guide me, because so often and even in the editorial process, you get very snowbarn snowblarn, and you can't quite see think things are great. But then there are other people who will come in and say this didn't quite land for me, this isn't working, this is overstated, this is understated. So all of
those sort of things. I'm just getting a text from my pow Casey Affleck right now speaking so Alex. That's really it, man, It's about how do you use other people's ideas. Look at I mean, I can't say enough to young filmmakers read great screenplays. See not only what are writers trying
to express, but what they aren't. So much is left to the unspoken, and that will make a real connection with the audience and I tell people all the time first time filmmakers tell the truth, write stories that are close
to you, that you know in person. Similize everything, because then if you do it, your theme will become universal and it will speak to most everybody because we're all suffering, right, and we all if you deign to make the kind of films that I do, and you want to move people or you want to challenge people, A great filmmaker who shall remain unnamed, once said to me, and this guy's one of the greats. He says, scot up, everybody likes your film, it's likely not very good,
very true. Now do you outline at all? If I'm adapting something, if I'm writing an original funny because I use Kubrick again, because I've read everything he's ever said, well, me too. My friend to me to watch all of his interviews, and he would never direct an original screenplay. It always has to be based on existing material, because he says, you can sit down in one sitting and tell this is a story that I want to tell, this is what I want to spend the next five years of
my life. Outlining can be really quite helpful if there's existing The pale blue eye, very sprawling novel, more characters than I could that I could or should explore in a two hour timeframe. Different if you're making a limited series something that's longer and more sprawling, you should certainly outline. But our original screenplay it helps. It helps to give you guideposts as you're writing, for
sure. But certainly if you're adapting something and it's really all about finding the essence of the novel or nonfiction piece or magazine ricle, whatever it is, your adapted podcast, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, And then it helps to outline that. For sure. There's also something very free about not knowing where a narrative is going. You had a kernel of an idea, like out of the furnace,
and off I went and just wrote. And I was doing press for Crazy Heart Albums in Pittsburgh, drove over to Braddock, Pennsylvania, wrote very specifically for all of these locations, took images out of that king the narrative. So I do both. I've just just adapted something that I hope to make certainly my next number or the film after that. And I didn't outline
I'd read the novel four or five times. William Goldman had certainly once he realized he was going to read something and read it two or three times. Did I like it the second time as much as the first? What are the themes? Who are the characters that I'm going to excize? Who the characters I'm going to focus on? That's the piece that I just that I've
just adapted that. When you have someone who's given you a great piece of source material, like, for instance, Lewis Bayard and The Pale Blue, you can take that and if the author knows and understands that a film is very different than a book, you could just use a seed and off you go. So what really is is project continuing, whether I outline or not. I don't do it always now as directors, there's always that day on set where we feel like the entire world's come and crashing down around you.
The sun's yea every day there is that, But there's that one day that's like, oh, I don't think we're going to make it. That day that you like, holy cow, what was that day on any of your projects? And how did you overcome it? Well? You never have enough time ever, Honestly, even though you've got and I've got fifty five days to shoot this Jesus, I had twenty four for Crazy Heart, and then every day by the time you're finished. There are no easy days on a
film set. One of them, of course, is is if you have to vacate a location because it's a restaurant that you've brought it out, or someone's house in the ray to move back in, or it can be because you have monsoonal rains coming. And that would have been in Hostiles where I was shooting the sequence towards the end of the film where Rory Cochran's character before he before he meets his maker, and it's pouring rain and it's I think
it's probably thirty eight degrees. It's going to be snowing later. Rory is dressed only in a very thin shirt, but we hadn't quite gotten the scene, but I could tell that he was he was very affected by the weather and was starting to hypothermic. I'm not a doctor. I'm supposing I can see how it was affecting him. And these monsoonal rains up in the continental divide you just can't control. But it was giving me everything that I wanted
in the scene. So you're trying to balance somebody's health with also trying to know that you have to vacate a location vacator location and trying to balance the scene. But and I would go to Rory, I would say, listen, I think we have this, but I'm also very concerned that you are experiencing something now that you shouldn't be. No, Scott, I haven't quite gotten it. This is what Rory would say, We're going to keep pushing.
And then you're sitting behind the monitor next to the lens and you're thinking, Okay, man, I've got to stop him because he'll keep going till until he falls down, because he's that kind of actor who's so great Rory Cotton as I've worked with so scenes like that that really pressure you. Or when the monsoon rains and rattlesnakes have come out of the ground they're everywhere,
but you're still shooting. You know, those sort of things you said about really balancing, and you know, if you're eight ten thousand feet above sea level and oxygen is very difficult for people. Always trying to balance those sort of things, or shooting the Pale Blue Eye and it's eight below zero, and those are long days and you want to make certain that the crew are
well taken care of. But if you're the writer, director, producer, and you're on a location and you're focused on that and then but you're also concerned about the crew's well being, you know, those are things that you really have to juggle as a filmmaker that they certainly don't teach you in film school. Having not gone to film st I don't know for sure, but I suspect they don't. Elevation. I missed the Rattlesnake Bears suing class when
I went. At least it wasn't there. It wasn't in the curriculum when I went, So right, maybe there should be a class on that. I mean, if someone's listening at USC for hell at us to have that exactly now. I've talked to so many writers that when they are when they're writing, and it happens. It's happened to me, it happens to every
writer. I think is when you're writing, you you're almost channeling, You're almost like it's something flowing through you to what point, to the point where after you're done you look at it and you go holy crap who wrote this? This is good almost every time, and quite frankly, it comes from a very deep, subconscious place. I mean, you're very conscious as you're
writing it, but you're not questioning it. My wife asks me that all the time when she when she reads something like Jesus, where did this come from? And you can't quite really understand it. And quite frankly, the more films you make and the more experience you can come now as a film director, but as a film writer, the more difficult it gets about saying less and not over imparting to the audience and trying to give them a numb
information to keep them satisfied, but not too much information. And that's where you become more conscious about it. But generally, as you're writing, if you're in that flow and that stream of consciousness and it's coming from the place, don't question it and don't stop. So it seems like it's, you know, we could call it the other side the ether. Wherever ideas come from? I think Spielberg talked about it, and I think Prince and Michael
Jackson talked about it as well, like where ideas come from? And I think Spielberg said in an interview where he's like, if an idea comes to me, I know that if I don't act on it, in a week or two, I'll hear that Marty got it or someone else got it, because the idea needs to be birthed into the world, and they chose you first, but if you don't move they'll move on to the next one.
Look, and those are our three geniuses that you just mentioned. So I wouldn't question any of that, but I think he's probably right, and I try not to. I try not to question anything honestly in terms of where it comes from, because when you make the kind of films that that I make, you you have to understand that no two people see the same film, right, And which is why I think it's so frankly absurd to rank art as we do in America. What's the best? You know? Who
do you who do you think is a better painter? Side Twomblei or Jackson Pollock? You're going to have varying responses right from a number of people when you present them with that, or who's better Miles or Coltraining, Right, those were things and the fact that we that we rank art is something that for whole nother discussion, Alex, But you can't really be concerned with any of that when you are making a film or when you write who come from
don't know? How are people going to receive this? Oh god no, I think that No, you have to just let it come out. And
that's where I think a lot of writers generic and were easily forgotten. One thing I've noticed with your work is it seems that there hasn't been a drop off, meaning that the level that you were able to set, the bar you were able to set with Crazy Heart, you've been able to keep that film after film on the level of the writing and the direct and because to be honest, and I know you know this as well, there are directors who pop. But then they overthink or they and then you could start seeing
it in their work, their work starts to drop off. Unfortunately. Do you think when you wrote Crazy Heart where you were basically there was no pressure to write Crazy Heart? Oh? Nobody, No. So it was such a freeing experience that you let go. Do you are you able to continuously do that with your work or do you start to do you get in your own way and stop that flow sometimes from happening? Well, both only because my work explores the darker corners of the human psyche, and since Crazy Heart
have gotten progressively darker. Although Pale Blue Eyes certainly it's not that, I mean, that's much more accessible. So you try to guard against that only because you know that your films affect people in the ways. I've been to countless screenings over the last six movies where people have come out of my films as though they were just you know, festivals screenings, as they were just hit by a two by four, and you can tell that they're deeply moved
or deeply angered or upset, whatever it is. So you know, you're sometimes mindful of that, like you know, and I never try to make the same film twice. You make a music film, you make a gangster movie, a western horror, family horror, trauma with antlers, and now this we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back
to the show. So I never try to repeat myself. But I also never let the audience off the hook, and that is something that you sometimes have to be reminded of because look, we want, I mean, movies are an expensive endeavor, and their investments want their movies at least to break even, but they want to make money. You know, it is cliched as it is. It is show business and not show art. So I've
been lucky to make the kind of films that I make. And quite frankly, I think actors and other directors, whether they're in my contemporaries or people that I have long long admired and became a filmmaker because of them, have embraced my work in ways that the public just isn't aware of, and that really keeps you going. Walter Hill got an email from Walter today telling me how much that he loved Pale Blue Eye and what he thinks is my same
reason. I bring it up because you just mentioned it and how he's seen my career a send. And you know, I think people are thankful when directors really really respect the audience and want to give them something that's challenging and something that's different and most importantly, something that and I do believe this will
stand the test of time. Let me, I gotta ask you this question because I mean we you and I are both of a generation that remembers all those great filmmakers you talked about, all those great movies from the seventies and the sixties and the eighties, and I feel like those kind of filmmakers, and to be honest, filmmakers like yourself aren't a dangered species right now because of what's happening in the in the business. There's it's it's just getting crazier
and crazier. And if it wasn't for people like Netflix. You know, a Pale Blue Eye, which is is your new movie that's not getting a theatrical release today, that's not being made today, It just it wouldn't get made unless it was with a streamer who wants to do that kind of work because the studios. Honestly, if Scorsese is having a problem getting his films made and yes to go to Netflix to get we're all in trouble so making
his new film right exactly. So what do you think about the future of where we're going, Because as a film lover, I'm seeing I'm seeing a problem. The new generation coming up its problem. I I mean, Christian and I just spoke about it today because The Payable Eye is debuting on Netflix.
It's been in theaters for the last two weeks. I mean, I'm eternally grateful that Netflix have allowed this film, should people want to see it from the big screen experience, to debut in the top markets all over the world. We've got two weeks to see it in a theater if you want to see that, and should you want to wait until it comes to your house, which is what most people will do to your home theater, that's how the majority of people will see my film, then that's how they're going
to see it. I am eternally grateful that Netflix, Apple, Amazon are making films that the legacy studios no longer want to make, because those are the films that the reason I became a filmmaker, and the movies that still excite me. I mean, I've been asked to do major superhero films or the kind of films that guarantee an audience. I've been offered us many times and have as of yet elected not to do them because I want to tell these stories, stories that make me want to race out to see a film
on Friday night. It's getting tougher and tougher because if you look at this fall in some of my pals, their films that debut ins animals, just no one came to see them. And these are excellent films and made the highest uh craftsmanship, in great performances, and it's it's a bit terrifying, and we're you know, we're heading into uh potentially uh strike here. We that's right, potentially could be facing would be facing you know, economic headwinds.
So all of these things make it more difficult for people to get their films made, certainly more difficult than than it does for Scorsese or or or the all those land most of myself whoever, are making you know, challenging adult dramas. But still it's never easy. And and I fear that uh people, until we're really beyond COVID, which we certainly are not. H I think an older audience won't come back, and I think ticket price is probably going to have to come down to to entice people to come back to
the cinemas. But I can assure you because if you look around in the world, there's such great cinema being made, and those are the films that I most respond to. Quite frankly, international filmmakers who've inspired me a great deal over the last fifteen twenty years, they're still getting their films made. Their home countries sometimes help subsidize them, which we don't quite have here. It is getting tougher. But then every year movies come out and you think,
Okay, great, this is why we love cinema. It's just just getting harder and harder, Alex. And it's what I'll call any filmmaker, you should make the film you're about to make as though at your last Yeah, and it's you know a lot of times. Well, first of all, I think what you're said about the foreign films. We're getting access to
them so much easier now because of streaming services. They're just coming in and something like Parasite winning the Oscar and things like that that would have never happened ten twenty years ago, which just wouldn't have happened. So that's a good
Those are good signs. But the younger generation of filmmakers coming out, because I teach these filmmakers, they listen to me all the time, and they watched the show, and and I see them at festivals and I see them at events and I talk to them, and it's just it's so much harder now to get stuff off the ground than it was before, and especially to tell the kind of challenging stories that you're telling, and I mean, any of Kubrick's films, any of them. Try to release them today. Any
Kubrick film today, release it. It's not even possible. Can you imagine the Clockwork Orange I watched the other day, just the first the first twenty minutes of that. I'm like, you released that today. It's just not in today's environment. You can't release a film like that or Taxi Driver. No, are you kidding? Are your students disparited from from following their passions
or do they just going to be a tougher road to hope? Well, this is the thing, man, I think that filmmakers, the younger film generation coming up, are still stuck a lot of times in the glory days, which in many ways for our generation was the nineties, which was the independent film movement, the sun Dance movement, where and I've spoken to a lot of these filmmakers, you know, the Ed Burns and the Rober rodriguezz and the Tarantinos, these guys that they were legendary stories of what happened in
the nineties, and they're stuck into that world. And I think that that's the path. And I keep yelling from the top of the mountain, this is not the way anymore, as you can't. I talked to Ed Burns about Brothers McMullen. That movie wouldn't make it today. Clerks wouldn't make it today. El Mariachi wouldn't make it today. Flacker wouldn't make it today. It's deep there and and they think that that's the path. So then I have to kind of break that illusion a bit and then they go, well
what do I do? And I go, you the game is so different now, and it's so much easier to make a film, but it's so much harder to get it seen because when when we were coming up, it was impossible to make a film because you needed thirty five, you needed sixteen if you were lucky. And then you have to really understand technology. You
really need to understand lighting. Now anyone can make, you know. I had Sean Baker on a few a couple times on my show It what he did with Tangerine with the iPhone and cameras are so cheap and things look so good. Sean's doing it the right way, Sean, No, Sean is amazing, and he's you know Red Rocket. I love Red Rocket. I
saw that in the theater shot at sixteen. It was great, but that but that it's it's I think people are starting to get disheartened a bit, and I think, what where our generation looked into the nineties, let's say, for hope, And of course obviously the seventies and the eighties and the sixties and the great filmmakers and the legends were kind of like if you remember when everybody wanted to grow up to be a rock star, right then in
the nineties, everybody wanted to grow up to be a director because Quentin made it so cool and Robert made it so cool, and it was just like everybody, yeah, Soderberg, everybody was so cool to be a director. Now, the younger generation then they want to be content creators. They want to be YouTubers to tell their stories, and they're able to monetize there much
faster than they could with film. And then don't get me started about film distribution, which is a whole other world that I'm deep into as far independent film distribution. So it's just a difficult, it's so hard man at certain levels. Yeah, you're going to get the Ryan Couglers that come out of film school and make some great films in your film like crazy heart these but these are anomalies. We'll be right back for a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. I mean your stories and anomaly right. So, I don't know, I don't know where this conversation is going, but I just love to hear your thoughts on where you think from your point of view. Well, now you may just crawl up in the fetal position, Jesus Alan. Look Gamel del Toro, who writes my film Antlers,
and yes, who's a great pal of mine. He said, Look, you know, if COVID remind us of anything, we know that we need food, we need shelter, we need medicines, and we need stories, and we will always need films. We will always need long form television, whether it's content as you mentioned on YouTube, whether it's short films. People need stories. We always have ever since when we go back to cavemen, right of course, of course, and cave art in the caves and France
and elsewhere. So that I'm not concerned about what I am concerned about. The economic headwins the difficulty to entry for the marketplace, the marketplace and distribution. And my hope is that and I don't know that we're on the tail end of COVID. Hopefully I still have it now and it's as bad as ever, as intense as ever. Hopefully, once people come back, the
older audience come back to cinemas, perhaps it will get easier. But I don't know that film going is the first choice for eighteen to thirty four year olds. I have kids. They love going to the cinema. They try to go as often as possible. But it's also because I'm a film director. Of course, friends love to go to the movies, but they're also on TikTok all the time, and they're on Instagram, and they're on YouTube phones YouTube. Yeah, so it's it's, uh, there are many things
that are challenging our time for movies. It's it's it's it's expensive and time consuming to get to the to the cinema. I hope that that changes. I hope that that that it will shake out with COVID and the legas. Studios now realize that making films like the films that I make, are more important. But it's really all about economics, always has been, but you know it has but I think that the studios are now run by corporations and
by boards of directors. Oh, but before they were run by filmmakers, you know, you know, I mean arguably, Igor Bob Iger is probably the only guy who understands. And look what he's done with Disney, for God's sake, and God he's back, and think guy's back. He understood,
he understands story telling, understands filmmaking. But I remember growing up, I worked at the video store and we would have movies like what about Bob, you know, and these smaller films not in Virginia home right exactly, So, these smaller films with big stars at nice budgets, you know, ten million, fifteen million, that there was a shot they'd do ten of those and one would pop and the other ones would do okay, and then maybe two or three would bomb. But they will all work together. And
there was more content, more ideas, more things. And that's why we're going back to those times to mind those ideas, because everyone's terrified of doing that kind of stuff right now, where Netflix and Amazon and Apple aren't scared to do that because their business model is different, that's right. And I suspect that there are a lot of different streaming platforms which are expensive for people to have six or eight of them. I imagine that there will be fewer
going forward, but those will still be providing great content. And that's of course Netflix and Apple and Amazon Disney plus who are well capitalized. But then I think you'll probably also see some consolidation and uh, the less buyers, the worse off for all of us. Agreed, My friend agreed, that's without question. Have companies like Sony Pictures Classics and my good friends at Fox Searchlight who a couple of my films, and they and they really are run
by filmmakers, films a year in and year out. They're great supporters of films A twenty four, yeah, twenty four four and uh and now and
of course Netflix. Netflix has a whole division that will allow you to make Roma or Bardo or The Power of the Dog or The Pale Blue Eye or on and on and on, and hopefully we can continue to make that because there's so many young filmmakers who are listening to this podcast or your podcasts in general, who have stories to tell and should be absolutely and if you can, and if you have that burning desire that said, this is the only thing I can do with my life, which is ultimately what I said,
then you'll find a way to succeed and tell your story. Amen, brother, I think that's the that's the key is it's not and and maybe you should maybe you can back me up on this. It's always not about the talent, but perseverance, because there's a lot of people who are who are around they're like, man, they're they're not the best, but they just stuck it out. They just survived. Oh yeah, we all know examples of that for sure. Yeah. And that's something they don't teach you in
film school. It's like, I don't look Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan got cut from his high school team. Talent wasn't enough, Alan wasn't He had to go in hustle and work and build it up and keep going. And and that's something that I try to try to yell from the top of the mountain here as well. Yeah, Hey, if you have my pal Adam Sandler on to talk about Hustle, please, I would love to have Adam on the show. Please call him up and let him know
because I love I don't know why he didn't come on Hustle. I love, by the way, I love that movie love that he's a man, and he's great in the film and and he's and if you want to talk about Adam, and people always ask like, how come Adam keeps getting all
these this deal on Netflix? And I always say, like, the reason why is because when you're on Friday night with your wife sitting on Netflix and you're scanning all those thumbnails and you see Adam's face, you go, oh, I know what I'm gonna get, and I'm gonna get something that, and he's he's either gonna be super funny or when he gets into this dramatic stuff, which's so underrated in his dramatic acting, he and he just he gets it and he understands his brand, he understands what he's doing. And
man, he's unlike any other actor. I really he's He's done such amazing stuff over the years. Whether you like his film, yeah, whatever you like, I don't care if people like his films, and everyone has their opinions on stuff, well you can't deny what the man has done and continues to do it, keeps knocking it out of the park. I loved Hustle. I loved Hustle so good power. I love the guy so let's talk about the Pale Blue Eye, you know with Netflix. You know it looks
beautiful, dude, It's stunning. It is stunningly shot. It almost reminded. It almost has a sleepy hollow vibe to it as far as I guess, Yeah, that's right, that that has that kind of texture, well, color aesthetic for sure. Yeah, it's it's stunning, man. So tell me how that that whole thing came to be and and how you were able. I mean'm assuming you gave the script to Christian. Christian said yes, and then Netflix sid ye, Yeah, yeah, he read it probably,
Uh oh, I don't know. Ten or twelve years ago after we did Out of the Furnace that he was too young to play Augustus Land or the World where he Detective was too old to play Edgar Allan Poe. That we'd always talked about it, and I've written a lot of things that that I think he and I will make at some point. It's all about, as we discussed early on in the podcast, all about timing availability, what we feel like making. But we both were interested in what drives someone to
madness, how much pressure has to build before they explode in violence? You know, what causes morality and decency to erode and otherwise decent people, right, Real horrors seldom have easy explanations, and that's what we wanted to explore with the story. In terms of the aesthetic, it was. It was a brutal shoot. It's all. My wife thinks I'm a massacres. But like I said, it was incredibly cold therese bracing winds coming from the northeast
are just almost Revenant style. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was tough, But that was all in serving kind of this Gothic aesthetic and really trying to serve as an Edgar Allan Poe origin story that the two Hours will take place in this film motivate Poe to become the writer that we know and love, the writer of the macabre, the man who bequeathed to us detective and horror fiction, the man who writes about tragedy and death and the satanic and the occult and where life ends and death begins, all those
sort of things that kind of course through this narrative. And I thought that again, in trying not to do safe work, Christian stood on that ledge with me and we both took the leap and were yeah. So once I attached Christian, my agency creative artists took the screenplay out and we got a lot of bids from the Legacy studios, a lot of bids from streamers, but Netflix made us an offer that we thought was too good to pass up. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back
to the show. In terms of having both theatrical experience and streaming, my first platform experience, and also, uh, quite frankly, there there their ranks are filled with great filmmakers who really understood the film and allowed me to make the film that you see. I hope that people find it, you know, starting today on the on the streamer, and allow people coming behind
me to make films that are similarly difficult to make in this marketplace. And you've worked with Christians so many times now, I mean, you guys, are you're scorses to his DeNiro at this point or to his DiCaprio at this point. Uh, Christian is one of the greatest actors of his generation. There's no question, one of the greatest actors of his generation. And his physical transformations that he's done over the course of his life, which I know
has harmed wealth. Oh yeah, that's the part of myself. And there's nobody who's ever done anything at that again and again and again and again. From the Machinist the Batman, You're like, what, how? How? How? It's really remarkable? What is the what is the biggest lesson you've learned working with an actor like him? No detail is too small, and always striving for the truth, always striving for excellence, and realizing that we can always do better. And you need people like that to make you a
better filmmaker. I've spoken about it publicly. Christians, my closest pal, my closest collaborator, is a brother to me and uh and I'm thankful that that. As a director, I've had someone who has served as as a muse for for the stories that I want to tell, and people continue to come out and see our work. It won't be the end of it our collaboration, for sure, but he pushes me to be the best filmmaker I can be. And and quite frankly, I admired him more off the set
than I do on. He's He's an incredibly devoted father and husband and you never see Christian in the public eye. You never see him on talk shows, because he always thinks the less the public knows about him, the more easily they will believe him as Batman or Dick Cheney or Augustus Land or in the Pale Brewer where he pumps his gas, who he's partying with, where he went for holiday. You never see it. Yeah, it's almost a danielda Lewis vibe too, because when Daniel did, he just wouldn't you doing
nothing? You knew nothing about day. He just show up three ten years later. I'll do a part now. That's exactly right. And and that way you're able to be transported with the filmmakers to a world and you never even question, hold on, is he dating? You're right, You're right, he's He's brilliant on multiple levels, without question. Yes. And now I continue to write for him. Now I have a few questions. Ask all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to
break into the business today. Tell personal stories. Tell personal stories that you know will connect in a very universal way to people in America, people in Iran, people in Afghanistan, people in Ukraine. All people need stories help make personal films. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
whether in the film industry or in life. And it's difficult, but patients and to believe in yourself and to believe in your stories, and to believe that you'll ultimately cultivate your talent in such a way that it will be undeniable that people will want to work with you. But it all takes patience and experience and the toughest question. Of all three of your favorite films of all time, I would say, even though I have yet to make a
documentary, I love them. I would say Barbara Copple's Harlan County, USA. That's a great one, something that really has influenced me. The Maze Old Brothers Salesman. Here's another. I would say, Jean Pierre Melville's Les Samurai. Nice, very nice, very nice. List. My friend Scott Brother, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing all your knowledge and experience with the audience. Man, and please continue to make a movie great
questions, man, keep it up and please people in all seriousness. Don't lose faith. Gotta tell stories. I want to thank Scott so much for coming on the show and sharing his journey and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so much, Scott. If you want to get links anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch his new film The Pale Blue Eye on Netflix, head over to the show notes at
Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three forty eight. Thank you so much for listening to guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.