BPS 332: Screenwriting Secrets from Hollywood with Corey Mandell

You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three thirty two. Cinema is a matter of what's in the frame and what's out. Now, more than ever, we need to talk to each other, to listen to each other and understand how we

see the world, and cinema is the best medium for doing this. Martin Scorsese broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now,

today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now, unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories. Micro budget, indie, film market and studio film.

There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on that At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WM E, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on

over to cover my screenplay dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Jason Buff. Thanks for joining us here today. My guest is Corey Mandel. Corey is an award winning playwright and screenwriter who has written projects for Ley, Scott, Wolfgane Peterson, Harrison, Ford, Warner Brothers, Universal, twentieth

Century Fox, you name it, he's written it for you. I'm really excited to talk about to talk with Corey today because he is writing at the studio level and we really even though this is indie film, it's really important to know what it's like writing at that level and how things work, uh, you know, things like getting an agent, the importance of having a manager things like that, and you know, it's it's it's really talking about

something that I didn't know a whole lot about, even though you know, i'm as many of you, I'm also a screenwriter aspiring screenwriter, so it's it's good to know even though my aspirations are more towards indie film. Anyway, I learned a lot from from Corey and I think he's actually a really good teacher as well. He teaches a workshop. If you go to Corey Mandel dot net and that's Mandel with two l's, he's got a workshop there, and I highly you know, I think he's got some some great things

to teach. I think you should definitely check out his classes. And he's had a lot of success stories, so check that out. Here we go, here's my interview with Korey Mandel. Well, I guess the first thing we should start out with for people who are not familiar with you and your your side and your work, if you wouldn't mind just giving us a little

bit of background in your career as a screenwriter. Sure, so I went to you see a film school and listen back in late nineties, and it was really fortunate to launch my career by having really Scott hired me to write Metropolis. I was still in film school. It was just a need to be in a room with herdy. Scott haven't hire me, flew me to London, first time I'd ever flown the first class, the first time the news first class existed. You know's moving on like top from the noodles on

a good day. And so really committed to making Metropolis and it was a front page variety and ultimately didn't get made, which is a whole long story. But but you mentioned me, and he mentioned the script in very positive way on the front page variety. So if you're looking to launch your career, having your discussed very nice things about you and your scripts on a front page variety not a right. So let's step one DWAs you have that with step on my Mom's day. And so then I became you know, the

super hot writers in the town for seven minutes. And and I started next project with the Wolf Peterson who was just finished Air Force one, and I did a project for him. I did a project for working title, so I basically ended up doing over eleven years. I did nineteen for hire, a studio project, and you know, for some of your listeners who maybe

are a little new to the studio game. Basically, what that means is I would get hired I have an original idea that pictures the studios, they buy the idea, they hired me to write it, or what was more often the case, they had a project, they had a writer or a couple of writers, weren't hardly excited about where it was going, so they would hire me to come in and rewrite it. I would also sometimes get hired to adapt novels or graphic novels, and then occasionally I would do production

rewrite, where you're actually on set when they're making a movie. You don't get credit, but you get a really nice paycheck and you are rewriting structure or comedy or characters on set. So that's basically for someone who's going to work in the future film business under assignment, that's kind of a range of the kinds of things you do. Now, what was the process before you got that project with Ridley Scott? I mean, how how did you even

get into that world? Yeah, that's a great question. So what has happened is I had written the script at when I was at ust LA, and one of my teachers was running development for Meg Ryan. And again this is like ninety eight and Meg Ryan is a big star and written the script, and I somehow convinced the her name's Kathy Raban to take a look at the script, and she read it and she really responded to it, and she talked to Meg when about it, and Meg really responded to it.

Meg wanted to do it. So then you get the phone call that everybody wants, which is you know, Kathy Rayven called me and said, Meg Ryan, you know, very potentially interested in your project. Who's your agent? And of course I said, I don't have an agent, and then she said, would you for me to help you get an agent? And then like, let me think about that. Yeah, I would like that. And you know, the thing is the key to get in an agent, and it's easier said than done. Is not for you to be chasing

the agent, for the agent to be chasing you. Now, probably the easiest way to get an agent to chase you is to write something and gets a major piece of chaleng attached. Again, easier says than done. I understand that. So in that situation, I literally have THEA and William Morris and I see him like pomp agent, like clearing their schedule to meet with

me. So I did have over the next couple of days, and I chose to go with ICM with an agent named Dan Terrence, who's awesome and so, you know, to put in a perspective Dan Terrence at this time, she represents KLi Cory, who when they get an award for Selma Louise, she represents you know, it's Foreman, you know, and then little me a full intimidating that it was really exciting, and then you make a long story short somewhat short, uh hight. So Meg Ryan is attacked.

Now we have directors fighting for the project. We suddenly have studios fighting for the project, Like this is going to be a big script, so I'm going to make all whole bits of money, pay atomic student loans, get

a car. Life is good. And then a movie comes out that's in the same genre and somewhat similar but really not that similar, but somewhat similar, and it tanks the tanks at the box office, and suddenly mc ryan or someone on our team's asides, maybe I don't want to do this, And then suddenly the mc ryan says that suddenly the directors are like, well, maybe I don't want to do this, And then if the studios are like, well maybe I know want and I remember to help the cards exactly.

And the one thing I'll say for your listeners and I I'm sure that you have people will sten to be found through this, and you also people who are kind of new to the game and everyone in between. I'll just say that the experience I just went through. I constantly get calls from students and writers I work with who goes to the same thing as I do. Get as close as you can without it actually happening, and you feel potentially

like to something wrong with you or your curse. And the thing is, when you start to talk to a lot for writers, you realize it's a pretty typical experience. And so so at the end of the day it was not going to sell, which was crushing, But you know, I had a writing example, I had an agent, and I think most importantly I had credibility because the script I had attracted a major star, and so that

gives your credibility. So my agent says, you have any ideas for you know, a kitch, We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show, because now you have this credibility, Let's see if we can't sell a pitch. And I said, yeah, this is an idea I've always loved and so I wanted by her and she said, yeah, I think that can have traction in the market place. And then she pulled out you know, have a paper and a pen. She was, Okay, let's do the fun part. Let's make our dream

list. If you could sell this pitch and work with anyone at all, who would it be? And the very first thing I said, Scott, and she said great to a great choice. Who else is We made our list with like major a list and it's sort of like, okay, that's our dream list. Now let's start making a list of maybe one more practical folks in case the dream list as a kind of and but I got we went, but she was start with her the Scott, since that was your

number one choice. I went there and that was the development executive. They really responded to the pitch. They brought me into producing partner at the time, Mimi. She responded to the pitch and literally two weeks later and it was a little embarrassing, but I get a call and I've been up really late and I'm like half to sleep on the phone where you think it's ten thirty and my agent says, we're leasing challenge and you'd like to hear your

pitch at eleven thirty. And it's like when it take me forty five minutes to get there and after shower and shave and all that. So I said, oh, that's exciting, but can I go in later today, like at three? And there's a long pause where I'm sure my agents think, team, why do I find this person? And then very nicely, very nicely, she says, Corey release in town if he'd like to hear your pitch at eleven o'clock. In there, I went, oh, of course, yes, I will be either. And I don't know how, but

it really worked in my favorite Cason, because I wasn't nervous. I was everything just to get there. I'm literally in a room pitching it really before I think type I could process that that's through the sky because he was a big vera like fill it and of course yeah, any boded in the earth. So in the room he said, if you don't mind, I'd like to buy this and I'd like to flow you to London and work with you on the structure and write it, you know, and it's like, welly,

let me check my schedule. I work. Yeah, our people can talk and we'll figure it out. Yeah, so let me ask you can I can? I just pause on that for one second, and I want to make sure we talk about a lot of different things. But one thing that we're talking about right now is the pitch. Ya, So is there any sort of I mean you're in your car, you're driving up, You're going to see you know a legend. I mean you have to be nervous. How what does what do you do to like make it all work out?

I mean, what's your pitch? I mean, how's it worked? You're going to tell you to How do you work prepare theselves for a picture and not get nervous? Or is me the actual? How do you? Yeah? I mean what what is what? What do you say? I mean? How how do you take your screenplay and put it? I mean what is that like a five minute six minute pitch to do? Or right? So this is not a stream place. So you know, when people are pitching, they have a risk. So generally, if you have an

idea. You've got two avenues, right. You can spec it, which is to write the script on back and then that's the thing that would be shown to people, the actual script. Or you can pitch it where you haven't written it yet, you have an idea. You're talking people through the through the idea, and then if they like it and they believe in you as a writer, they'll buy the pitch and then they'll hire you the writer.

Generally speaking, or those you know listeners who are kind of new to the game, you don't get invited to pitch these days unless you have credibility. So, and it's even more so than when I was pretty here, and so generally they're only going to listen to a pitch and buy a pitch from a writer that they are extremely confident can deliver on the actual script.

So for newer writers, you're not pitching these days. You're specting. You want to prove not just that you have a great idea, but you could execute on it. So yeah, So what had happened is I went in there and it looked like a forty five minute pitch and it was basically giving him the characters and the world and the story and everything that happens and trying

to do it in a wom that was most engaging as possible. And then he asked me lots of questions and we had a connversation and we were really talking through everything. I was there for a couple of hours, and at the end of it, you know, he had really had a really clear vision of what my vision was and what I was going to go and write, and he says, yeah, So then he lost the pitch, so I get a certain amount of money for that. And then also they hired

me to write it, so I get money for that. So it's basically like you have an idea for a script and before you write it, you sort of vent it to make sure there's a market for it, and if someone's interested enough, they'll buying the idea, and they hired you to write the script. And that's why common in TV, and it happens in features,

but generally is only you're going to happen for a writer. You have a certain level of credibility, okay, And what is the now for writers who are trying to understand what the relationship is with you and your agent. Your agent is the one that got you in the room there in the first place. Right, Yeah, so agents are your salesforce. Agents are going to sell your script and or they're going to get you in the right rooms

with the right people for pitches or for writing assignment. So that was the other thing is let's say that you write a script and it goes out in the market place and everybody loves the script. They think you are a fresh, original voice, great characters, great structure, but nobody buys the script. It's just it's not sitting what they're looking to buy. But everyone's like

as a great stress. So at that point, you know the agent will send you on a round of meeting And that was around The meetings could be twenty the thirty. And there's kind of three kinds of meetings. They are all going to be happening. So one I've called a general relationship where someone's registr up and they're blown away by it. They're not looking to hire a writer for a project. They're not really looking to buy a bitch. There's

no there's no money that's going to come out of this beauty. But it's a relationships. They'll be meeting. They just really love your script and your writing. They want to get to know you. They trying to figure out, you know, if you're the kind of person they want to work with, if you're crazy or not. There's a lot of crazy writers out there, and they just sort of, what are you interested in? And let me tell you the kinds of things that we're interested in, because down the

road they truly would like to find a way to work with you. And some writers get disappointment because they'll pick that meeting and they realize, somewhere here in meeting, I'm not going to get hired. There's no money that's going to come out of this. And those writers are they don't set relationships are really because you know, maybe six months later that person is looking to hire

someone. The fact that that you had a really good meeting with them and they really want to work with you, that could lead to a job. So so you write a script, everybody loves it, it doesn't sell. You go on around the meetings and one type of meeting is this relationship building meeting. Another meeting could be they really loved your script. If you have the right idea, they buy a pitch from you and they would help you develop it. So that's a meeting where you're going in and they're like,

hey, what ideas do you have in your pitching? That's what that's what the meeting it was because the Scott Another kind of meeting could be we loved your script, couldn't buy it, but we have we have the rights of the scraphic novel, or we have the rights of this article, or we have an idea that we've been kicked in around internally, or we have a script that somebody wrote. We want a pretty big rewrite and we want to make it darker, or we want to make it we want to make the

characters kind of a character or whatever. And you seem like you could be a good person for that. And so then what happens is you're basically being

invited to audition. It's like an after audition. So then if at the script, you'll read it and you'll come back in and you'll say, this is what I would this is how I would change it, this is my addition for it, and they're other writers do this as well, and then they're going to pick the writer who they vision that they like the most, or if it's an original idea that they have or an article saying thing you're going to go home, you're going to come back in and you're going to

pitch what you would do with this idea or what you would do with this article. And you're generally competing against other writers. So what the agent says is they're going to try to sell your script. Often that means packaging, putting elements, you know, to make the more exciting. They can go out and there's a script with a star, script with a director, and

concurrent to that, they're going to send you on meetings. And again, these meetings could be a relationship building, they could be you pitching or original ideas. It could be them looking to hire a writer. And you go through a round of those and maybe somewhere along the way you'll launch your career. You'll sell a pitch, they'll get hired to write something, your script will actually sell. All of that's possible. It's also very possible at the

end of that none of that happens. You met a lot of people, you've got a lot of great relationship, but at the end of the day, you didn't get a job out of it. And then what you do is you're going to have to give your agent another really great script and you're going to go through a second cycle, and you've got a better chances of lunching a career at the second time around and the first time because you have relationships, and also you're no longer on trick Tony. You've now proven that

you are capable of writing more than just one great script. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. But it's possible at these second rounds you still haven't watched your career, so you have to write another great step and go through a third round. As a lot of agents will say, if you go through three rounds of meetings and you haven't landed at your first job, there's a good chance or something

wrong with you. It's a good chance that you're. Yeah, not everybody plays all with others, you know, And if you were seeing as defensive or arrogant or just someone that people don't want to work with, then you know, no matter how great your writing is, it's probably not going to happen. But assuming you played all with others, and what I certainly see if my students and clients, you know, I have a third round of meeting, they're getting there. They're shot now what you do if that shot

the whole different story. Okay, Now, you wrote a very good screenplay relatively early on, and you're coming even before your career had kind of even started. What were the things that you know brought you to that level of writing? I mean, were you just born a good screenwriter or what happened at school that really made you able to write a good screenplay? Like?

That? A great question. And you know, there's so much misinformation out there because I have a lot of friends or managers and I'm not gonna out anyone here, But what happens is there's this myth that if you're a great writer, once you start writing, you write great stress and it's just not true. I know so many writers who I mean, I'm talking Academy Award

winning writers. I'm talking writers who created big hit TV shows. I'm talking about writers who make millions of dollars who it seems like everything they write it's just amazing. And there was five or six years where they weren't that good, and they were just getting a little bit better and a little bit better, and they were doing the right kind of training, but they were being mentored, and then what happens is after five or six years, they finally

are writing at a level where they can be taken seriously. They solve script and they will just say or their manager will make up some story like that was the first thing they read, and they just forget about all the development.

No, And that's really important people to hear that, because it's a really abuse of message otherwise, because if you don't realize that and you buy into the fairy tales and people are doing it strategically, it makes you sex here and it makes you more desirable as a writer just to be selling who naturally is a great fighter, like after everybody, everybody who wants to work with natural talent. So it's in people's interest to for ken they have natural

talent. But it's just I don't know a single successful writer who didn't start out as someone who had a lot of potential that kind of sucked and was taught and was mentored and got better. And so in my case, you know, and as a writer, I wouldn't I wouldn't talk about this way, but I'm wearing my teacher cat, so I'll be I'll be completely honest. What happened. I was in film school and I never write anything, and a friend and I kind of wrote a strip together and it sold as

a USA cable movie starting in Virginia Madsen. And it was a great concept and if we were just a little bit better writer, probably could have sold it as a feature. But at the time, as the very first thing I wrote, a co wrote, it was a friend. So I kind of thought I was God's gifts to writing, because no one else in my film school class sold anything. Okay, it was USA cable, but it

paid pretty good. It was Virginia mads and it got made. It was very successful for a cable movie, I mean for your first time out, at least for me. I was thinking, that's not so shabby. So my friend and I had a big falling out, so or collaboration ended a whole another long story. But so now I'm so and I write the script, and I'm in a writing group and they're like professional working writers in this group. They were all very honest with each other and I showed it to

them. They really liked it. They had some notes, they had a few issues, so inter rewrite shows them some notes, rewrits, you know how it goes. But I eventually got the script to a point where they're like, this is great, this will sell, this will launch your career. You know, I'll show it to my agent if you want. This is so, this is when the best scripts ever at And of course I'm

thinking, who am I to argue with a sentisment? Right? And so I showed the film full professor and he reads it and you know, same thing, fact thing I ever read. It definitely going to sell. I'll get it to you know, help you get an agent. So at the time I was working for this manager, and almost as a favor, I said, you want to read the script, like I must say, I

was like entering. I wasn't represented Viker, and so we read the script and we met and never forget he said, it's it's it's pretty good for like a journey first draft. You don't want to show anyone in the industry the script. You only get one person impression. The scripts not that good, but it has potential. And I this is like a weird disconnect for

me because I not when I've been told by everybody else. And when he said, is you're professional writers, professors, friends being honest with you, but they don't know how hard it is. The great thing it business. They don't know the bar they have to ship. And by the way, that's the late nineties. The bar is a lot higher today. And he said every time he got the script, it gets coverage, and that coverage gets database, everyone shares it. So it's the script, not like the

script is good, but it's not amazing. And there's a big difference between good and amazing, and in this industry, nobody cares about good. So he basically said, all work with you if you're willing to put the work in to help you, help make the script what it needs to being, to help you become a better writer. And I was really honestly torn at that time because I was thinking maybe his opinions just not vowed compared to everything

else. And so he suggested something that I suggest all of my students and clients, which is, you really think you're scripts ready because you only get one first impression, and that's the most cherished asset you have is your first impression. So what he suggested is go hire studio readers, like literally hire people who I hire someone from them, imagine someone from like Horner Brothers, like actual working readers, pay them under the table. I think it's like

a hundred bucks and have them view the coverage report. They would actually do the script not in tracking is not their coverage report goes to you, nobody else because it's not officially in the system. You're paying them to do the coverage report, gave Wold actually really do if the script had come through the system. So I didn't have the money to do it, but I did it. And when the coverages come back, one of the things they would

do is they'll evaluate the writer and it'll say recommend consider her path. And I think they all came back path on the writer, which was a real kick to the guy. But at the same time, I was so appreciative that I knew that, you know, and I didn't make the classic mistake of listening to everyone telling me how great it was. Find someone took it up the marketplace, and now suddenly, you know, my name for script

path is what everybody it has in the record. So I worked at that manager, and you know, it's a year and a half, And in that year and a half, I learned everything I didn't know, and I learned what my weaknesses were and worked really hard trying in the stress and after a year and a half a brutal work. This manager was not a pleasant person and he did not he was smart. He didn't know how to work as writers very well. So it was a brutal experience, but I learned

a lot. And at the end of it, he's like, I think it's now ready. I'll pay for the coverage, and he he paid for some people to do the coverage, and the coverage is all came back. Recommend, recommend, recommend, And that was the script that I then shown Kathy rad and all this happened. So no, I, as a writer, I would I would have said the following. I went to film school in the producer's program. It wasn't the screenwriting program. I didn't think I

could be a screenwriter. I took a class where they made us writing screenplay. I didn't want to because I was supposed to be a producern detective writer. I took the class. I wrote the script, the teacher read it. Next thing, you know, Meg Ryan's cash, Next thing you know, by the way that all of that is true. It's all true, and it's just I just took out that year and a half writer boot camp

art. Well, okay, can you can you explain kind of what happened between the version that you thought was good that your manager didn't think was very good, and the one that he finally thought was good. I mean, what changed. It was just learning a lot about story structure and character development and conflict and all the things that I work with writers now and I coached them through this process. And the thing is, there's such a big gap

between good and amazing. And there are a lot of writers who, you know, they'll read some books, they'll read some scripts, they'll watch law moves and TV shows. They have with us some natural abilities. They worked hard, they house plans or in a writing group, and they can get themselves up to good or maybe really good, but they can't hip themselves up to amazing. And it's order to gain and it's different for each person. But we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back

to the show. You know, everybody has inherent strengths as a writer. Everybody has inherent weaknesses, and everybody has blind spots and blint spots or weaknesses that you don't know that you have. So when I'm working with someone, the first thing is to help them understand what their blind spots are so at least now they're known weaknesses as opposed that unknown. But then really important thing is helping people get dedicated exercises and dedicated practice so that they can turn weaknesses

into strength. And it absolutely can be done. It takes time, it takes training, and the key is to work with someone who can help coach you through that because the thing that fast for a lot of people is a lot of the books and classes they're teaching rules and they're feaching paradigms and formulas, and the industry is moving so far away from that. You know, most agency managers won't even look at you if if that's what you're doing,

because that's not something they can work with it anymore. But also, be you learn a bunch of rules in a paradigm, you feel educated, but you haven't become a better writer. It's not that insight out process approach, which is what are my strengths, what are my weaknesses, what are my blind spots? And then how do I tread weaknesses and to strength. That's

that's the road to transformation. And the thing is manager, especially good managers, that's that's what they will do. They'll you know, they have their client base, they're making money, they have their b team, they know they'll they'll take some people they think have potential and they'll develop those writers exactly the way I'm talking about. Or you can get mentored by you know, a success the writers can help coach you through that process. Unfortunately, a

lot of us classes and the books do the opposite. And that's probably sounds really self serving because at some point I'll do commercials for my workshops and for my workshops, and I get that, and you know, and so if you want to take all this with with a cymical game of call, I understand. But the thing is what I endeavor to doing my workshops is to help people have to get a card training that they would get if it had

a manager or a mentor. And obviously, and I tell everyone that if you have a choice between my workshop and an actual manager or a writer who can mentor, you obviously go with the manager or the writer, because like that's better than the workshop. The workshops is there for people who aren't able to get that at this point. And so I get a lot of in the face student, you have a lot of education in the realm of rules

and paradigms, and they're writing they're not overcoming core weaknesses. So they keep writing scripts that are similarly flawed, and they're writing formulaic, predictable, generic kinds of scripts, which is exactly the wrong kind of script to workout. Okay, Now, so I assume things like save the Cad and all those things are kind of like, you know, you would consider that really going in the wrong direction, that people aren't looking for that sort of thing anymore.

Yeah. So, and again the thing is, it's not what I say, but AGNs the managers saying, right, because otherwise it's like I'm somebody in the saying, oh, don't listen to that teacher or writer. Come listen to me and spend your mind, you know, right. So it's like, Okay, it doesn't matter what it's what I say, and

that is an agency managers say. And so the reality is agents and managers in this marketplace, in feature and in TV are looking for pitch perfect authentic script, and they're looking for scripts that are authentic, which means authentic characters but an authentic voice. It's a script we haven't seen before, it's a story we haven't seen before. That is pitch perfect execution, very difficult to

achieve this as a writer. But putting out aside, these scripts go virole, which means when someone writes the script like this and shows as its own industry, they talk about it and they say it's all the friends, and a script gets passed around and there's a buzz, and that's what's required to brace the writer out of all of the light noise that everybody's trying to break

in the business. So if I'm an agent and I find you, and now I'm getting on the phone, I don't know, you might have fold a bunch of stuff out of my lot, might have a lot of credibilities. Let's just say you're a newer writer, nobody really knows who you are, and you don't really have any credibility. Again, I'm not saying that's true for you, but let's just say that's true. So I'm an agent, I'm now calling everybody's saying you got to read Jason script. And I'm

basically putting my credibility on the line. I'm chasing people to read your script and they'll eventually do it, but they're busy and they'll get to it eventually. As opposed to if you write a script that everyone's buzzing about. Everybody's talking about, but I'll you write that's It's like what used to be the Blacklist, those Blacklist script everybody's talking about the script. Everybody's buzzing about those scripts. Now people are calling me the agent things. How come I'm not

meeting with you know, Kason. I want to meet with Jason. That's a whole different game, and more importantly than that is. So let's look at this way. If you're an agent, let's say you have your basic like me, your sort of basic client. And so here's here's how the Corey Mandel game worked. There be a writing assignment. You would call and say, I think Corey is perfect for this and here's why. And they probably have heard of me. I've got a track record. They say,

sure, we'll put Corey's name on the list. So I now get to compete for that job. I was rage is to doing the same thing. Bunch of writers are competing for that job. I don't get it. So now you're calling somewhere else and you're getting me to compete for another job. You're putting energy and eventually I book a job and you get ten percent of my money and I made really good money, So you're making ten percent of really good money. Okay, that's not too terrible as an agent, but

you know, my agent also represents Aaron Sorkin. So first of all, when Aaron Sorkin makes a tremendous amount more money than I do, number one, so right away, much more valuable players. But number two, how do you get Aaron Sorkin a job? Yeah, answer the phone winner, and everybody's right. He's an a less writer. So a basic working writer is always chasing job. An aimless writer, everyone's chasing him. So someone

calls my agent and then we stopped this novel. We think Aaron perfect for you know, I don't know exactly what my agent does, but he probably said this Czern's cloak is probably really high and you would read to it. And then I'll give Aaron the book and see if Aaron make interested. I

mean, you would rather have one Aaron Sorkin than twenty Corny Mandel. And so as an agent, you're looking for people who have the potential to be a list writers in both TV and future because that's where all the money is. And someone who follows save the cat or other such sort of paradigm formulas.

These scripts do not become a list writers. So when you look at scripts that have launched a lest career like Juneo, like you know, American beauty, like Madneting, we can go on, and they're not following the paradise. They're offensive. Scripts are original. And so I'm an agent and somebody has written to one of these formulas that a lot of summer movies are

going to follow. And by the way, just between you and me, I wrote a lot of summer movies and I often would follow formulas because if you're working for Warner Brothers and they're doing Next Man five, they're not looking for American beauty, I think, so so many can sort of secut on that hero's journey paradise. The thing is, let's say you're an original writer, a new a new writer, and you write one of those scripts. It's not as easy as it looks to really make it interesting. It's not

as easy as it looks to fault. It's sort of like idea, not as easy as it looks to follow the form. So let's say you can do it. Let's say you can do it, And so people would script a brand new writer, Like, hey, this guy can smartly follow a formula. Who cares? Really? Who gives it that? You know what?

Because there's a lot of writers that can do that. And some of those writers are like Corny Mandel who has worked for really big people, and like Ribby Scott and we'll seeing through the They've always want to work with me again. So like, that's gives me a lot of credibility. I have a track record where I've worked under deadline. I've did in situations before I'm turning a script in the studio called me and they want a completely different direction

and I can pull that off. I've proven that I could pull that off. So I have a huge advantage over you. And then of course the person who wrote Guardians the Galaxy has an enormous advantage over me, you know, because they've written something that's made a tremendous amount of money. My point, there's people who can follow up. There's a lot of people can follow up paradigm. They have a track record. You don't, So why does

anybody care? Nobody cares. That's the agency are constantly sending me people to my classes. It's like I can't brace somebody into the business because they followed a conventional paradigm. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, because nobody will read that, like nobody cares as opposed to you write a script that nobody's seeing before. It's really fresh and exciting, and it gets people's attention. It's what's called a head

turning script. Now, I worked with someone who spent you know, a year and a half well to write that script. Wrote that script. They didn't sell, and they got offered like, oh, I think it was like three hundred crand to write Canda Bear three year Canada there a four and he like calls me like, I don't know if I should do it or not because they worked so hard to be able to write to this level. Now they're offering me a lot of money to do a formulaic you know,

paint by the number scrapped, and what do I do? And my answer was, my job is to help you to get to the point where you have that decision. Because you make the decision like I could, I think it will go either like personally, meet, I just really took the job. I always took the money. I don't think that was smart, but that's what I did. But my point is the disconnect that a lot of people make is there's just people that are like code breakers. They go,

look at all these movies coming out in the thumber. I decoded what happens on every page. And then they teach this paradigm and then writers go, well, I should write script that you know is commercial. If I want to break in the business, this is what the studios are in summer, I should write script like that. And it's the exact opposes that's true.

Agents will tell you. Most of the clients I signed, I signed off of scripts that I was really confident I couldn't sell because they were different their original Like Harriic Singer wrote the script The Sky Respall. It is so violent, so dark, that nobody was going to buy the script, like nobody, but everybody had to meet this guy, had to meet the guy who wrote it, and people want to find a way to work with it.

And so he was booking assignments and making what I think is nine six figure income year in and year out, and kept writing original material and eventually one of those one thing he wrote got made as an American hustle and now I was, you know, a big ay of us writer, probably making in you know, millions of dollars, But for many, many years he was a working writer making six figure income off of a script that didn't follow the

paradigms, didn't follow the part. It was just so original and so dark and so messed up in a good way that everybody topped that script right. Everybody said, have you read this? Guy? I saw, You've got to read this st That's what agents and managers, you know, that's what they want. They want something different and original. And even if that is a sample that you use to start writing break down the middle, save the

cat somewhere strips, fine, but you can't. It's really difficult to break in the business writing a strip like that because it's a dame that doesn't it just nobody cares. Can you talk a little bit about, for example, when you're looking for people who are trying to break in as screenwriters, you know, what are the essential things that they need to do if they're I'm

assuming what you're saying is people need to submit just amazing samples. I mean, let's say you don't have a vehicle where somebody like Meg Ryan wants your screenplay and you're you're just going the direct way and saying, I want to find an agent to you know, to support me. What is the what kind of spec screenplay do you think they that were kind of like work for

them? Well, so what works for people? Again, it's it's perfect authentic, and authentic would be you know, a script that you could have written this completely original so you know, you know, David Tyler wasn't sent around going I wonder what'll sell in the marketplace? That bet a scripts about you know guy as a stuttering problem. That the King's speech was just something

that he was really impassionate to write. He had you know, he's publicly discussed that he had had a stuttering issue and there was just a very personally important script to him and he wrote up strip and uh, you know, he wasn't trying to gain the marketplace. He was just writing a script with an amazing character, amazing story that was he was really impassionate about. And you read that script, it doesn't read like any other script. It's like

you read American Beauty. You don't tell another one of these scripts. There's just something original about it and different, and it doesn't have to be a quirky character piece. Again, this guy is following, you know, about the end of the world, and these priests are just going around killing people. And it's very dark and it's very violent. It's certainly about Juno from a total point of view, but there's just something you hadn't seen that before,

and there's something unique and powerful. And so we look at a script like Groundhog Day. You know, it is a classic rom com, but it just doesn't You don't read that suspect script, you know, after we had another rom com script and it killed myself. It's is different. There's just something different and original and exciting and fresh about it. That's the kind of script. And the thing is when I go and speak at again, you know, I always hear writers complain, Oh, it's so hard to

get an agent's hard to get a manager. No one wants to read at work, No one wants to represent me. The only want to represent known commodity. Thing is that that's just not true. I've the last a couple of days that are being with managers and they all have the same complaints. We can't find enough new, really great writers, you know, and they're all like, who your students shouldn't read. They're there. They cannot find enough. There's so many opportunities for writers, to particular in TV, but

more and more in features. The thing is, it's not looking it's not looking for new writers. That's that's pretty easy. And it's not looking for new writers who thinks they're really great, because that's a lot of those people. It's new writers who really are amazing. I mean, if you look at the script for Juno, you look at the script for American Beauty, you look at the script for Madness. Yeah, yeah, sorry, my phone did the word thing? I do it, sir? I mean,

these are these are amazing scripts. So like I know the guys that wrote they wrote the spect script for the Nix, the TV show. I mean that script was really great. And Stephen Sodenberg, who had retired, we got that script and read it and that lured him back. People still talk about the Game of Firms pilot script. It is just an amazing piece of writing. The Americans. I remember that pilot went around child and everybody was

about Everybody was talking about that script. And the thing is there's a lot of skill and the build it goes in the writing at that level at the highest level, and if a new writer can write to that level, managers are looking for them. The the scarcity here and I'm sorry, I used

to be in the colonists of socimbis with an old pattern. The scarcity is not on a So now this is really important because if they're if the scarcity was on that front, which is what everybody thinks, which means you've got all of these new writers who can write an amazing trips and there's just not enough agents and managers to go around. If that was the case and you

were one of those writers, how do you persevere? Well, Luck, connections, relationships, that's what those that's what if you're a new, amazing talent as a writer. And I'm not saying you're gonna sit at home and they'll find you, but I'm just saying getting the manager is actually easy because they're looking for you. HBO has executives who are out going to len at play, looking through YouTube. They're they're looking for fresh, original, new

voices. The thing is, there's obviously a lot of people out there that want to be writers, having an original, unique voice and take have passion about this, have read books. There's a lot of those people, that percentage of those people who can write pitch perfect, who can write the level that people are looking for, you know, is one hundredth of one percent

at best. And so the key is I think a lot of writers get taken advantage of because there are businesses out there that basically say, what stands between you and a career is access, and don't worry. I can help solve that part. You know, I'm going to have this pitch best or I'm going to shop your scripter, I'm going to list your stricter, I'm whatever. I'm going to help you get access. If you're willing to give me some money, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.

And now back to the show. So, you know, there was a pitch back that I used to go and teach at and I'm not doing it anymore. I just don't feel good about doing it because there's you know, five to six hundred people coming to LA paying hundreds and thousands, not hundreds of thousands, hundreds or thousands of dollars, and they get the pitch in front of people, and they get five minutes to pitch in front of the

selling. Well, no one's going to buy their pitch, but what they might do is like your pitch, like your energy, like you geez, can you write at all? They will be that blunt about it. If that, they'll say, give me a writing sample, and then it's that writing sample is amazing or close to amazing, then we'll bring you in for

a meeting and it really start to see if something can be either. And it was just talking to all those executives and a lot of them are like, yeah, we're just not going to do this anymore because we've gone through three or four years worth of these. We've asked for a couple of hundred writing samples, and so far now writing sample was anywhere near good enough for us to bring that person in. So this is a complete waste of time for everybody involved. So now, obviously, if a listener, if they

are in a position they're at that point zero one and one percess. They're a new writer, they don't have a track directors, they don't have an agent manager, and they are writing pisto perfect effect, and they're able to do this. Sure, if there's someone can help them get some access,

why not. But the reality is for most weill just spending so much time and energy and maybe money trying to solve the access part of this, as opposed to spending time and energy figuring out where they are as a writer and less they need to do and get to become a bet a writer. So it's sort of like people are spending all this money to get interviews for surgeon's job because they really want to be a surgeon because it's it's good money and

it's good benefits. They've never been in medical school, so yeah, you can spend all this money and get an interview at the hospital, but they're ever going to hire you, you know, as opposed to spend your time and energy actually getting medical training so that you're qualified for the job. There's so many people out there who just aren't qualified and they're not doing the training

to get there. Now, do you think that getting a manager is an important step to like, I mean, should you try and do that before you try to go find an agent? You know, get get you in shape? For for all bunch of reasons. Agents, especially these days, they are sells people. They are not there to help your careers, are not there to develop you. They're not there to take your script and say

it's it's close, but it needs to get better. They're just a sales force and the manager is someone that is going to help develop you, help understand your career. So the first thing, yeah, I would definitely go for a manager before you get an agent. First of all, a manager will let you know when you're ready for an agent, and they'll protect you and not and keep you from agents until you're ready to help develop you.

If they're a good manager, careful a lot of bad managers are they able to assume it's a good manager, and then when it gets to the point where you're ready for an agent, they'll know who's a good agent for you. Because the thing is is all agents have a superpower of they'll sit in a room and somehow know what it is you want to hear and tell you

what you want to hear, even if it's not true. So a manager is going to know you, your personality, your writing, and they're going to be in a place to help figure out what would be a good agent for you. Is there any way to make sure that you're finding the I mean a good agent, I mean where where is that kind of where do you find them? Well, so the thing is that you don't Okay, you don't find nature because I mean sorry, I was talking about a manager.

Where how do you like, how do you go about finding a manager? Right? So it's actually not that hard. So the one thing you want to be careful about. I'm starting to see more and more of these management companies are just taking advantage of people. So like you don't want to find some managers that's charging you. You don't want to manager that's taking ten

percent of anything. You know, it's like one manager it copan is actually like taking if you're an editor or a web designer, they're gonna take ten percent of your income. So there's there's these scams out there. You got to be careful of that. But that aside what you're looking for. It's not hard to network. It's not hard to find out like who the good

management companies are. And so you know the management companies, you reach out them and you just reach out to like the lowest person, like the the intern or the creative executive who's reading strips. It's the lowest person on the food chain. You have a nice little thirty seconds, lend minute, a little presentation. You call enough of them, there's a big chance to find

one or two of them. They'll take a look at the script. It's really means we'll to take a look at first couple of pages to see if you can know how to write, and if your script's amazing, you know, there's a really good chance that that you'll hear back from them. The thing is is, I know a lot of those people. A lot of those people are my students, and they'll tell you ninety nine percent of the time, yeah, they're amazing. App is how bad the scripts are?

You know, it's not amazing. It's not amazing. If there's writers out there that think they're where they are, there's writers that think the script is really great and it's not. What they find amazing is like how wide that gap could be. So it's not it's not hard at this point to get people in management companies, especially like the lowest level person to take a look.

And if you live in LA like these folks who like these newer people to manage with company, they're networking, so they're always going to network events to go in the writers build events or at screens or at certain parties. It's not hard to get plugged into that circle. If you live in LA. And if you don't live in LA, that's okay, you don't have

to move to LA. You know, with the Internet, it's not hard to find out who these people are and reach out to people via Twitter and Facebook and email, and it's just it's it's not that hard to get people to read script. I'm not saying it's easy, But what I say is training yourself to be able to write the kind of script that when somebody reads it it has a positive outcome for you. That's so much harder been getting

someone to read the script. And the mistake the biggest intakes that writers make is that you go out to management company, you get someone to read your script. It's just not that good. It's probably it like, it's probably not going to read in those scripts and a database the stuff. So suddenly maybe you have got to just burn your bridges there. You might have burned

your bridge elsewhere. Your first impression is prescious, and you're like a minor leaguer and when you get pulled up to the majors, you have to hit all the running your first time. That's not how it works in baseball, right, It's you're a minor leaguer you show a lot of potential, you go out to the majors, you strike out the first time, they probably don't send you back. It's probably get the batting coach they work with you. You strike out enough times, they're going to send you back. It's

not like that here. There's so many writers one who wakes in the business. There's so many people that it's sort of like you get your shot, and if you don't not get out of the park, you might not get those shots. Fact, here's something that's pretty chilling, and I'm not going to quote the name because I don't have permission, but not that long ago, talking to an agent at a at a one of the bigger agencies, and they said something that this. I think it's really important for listenings to

hear this. He said. If you you think, they said, if we read the script from a new writer and we don't think that script is just pitch perfect, authentic, now kind of represent that writer. Ever, they're blacklisted. And at first I got kind of a set because I know for fact that if writers can engage in the right trying of training, they can dramatically improve and so okay, so this writer maybe isn't where they need to be today, but two years from now or two years from now or

four years from now, they might be an amazing writer. And so I just got a set. You know, the teacher in me got really set, and I started to push back, and he knew exactly where I was going and shut me down and said, no, no, you don't get it, because we made a strategic decision to not be in the stupid writers business. And that's when I was like, whoa, Okay, now I don't know what you're what are you talking about, because because it's really simple,

it's just point. You know, if you get hired by Voltane Peterson to write the script, you have a deadline, like at some point you've got to turn that script in no matter what, and you got to make it as good as you can. But you've got a deadline. He goes,

if you're trying to break in the business, there's no deadline. So if you're trying to break in the business and you have moved mountains to get me to read your strict or someone else in my agency, if that script is not pitch perfect, authentic, you're an idiot, and we don't want to represent stupid writers. Because even if they're writing includes, they're so stupid. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. Now back to

the show. And stupid writers they just take more time and energy, they create more messes. It's just you don't want to be in a stupid writer business. And I would respectfully disagree with this person because I work with writers and I know that a lot of writers go out with scripts when they shouldn't.

And it's not because they're stupid. It's just because they're insecure. It's because they're impatient, it's because they're delusion fold, it's just they're listening to their own people, because I know what it's like if you're writing group or your teacher is telling the script, or even worse, people spend money. They go online and they hire someone to do coverage of the script and script

consultant. And if people have really good, impressive credit. Well, the thing is is if you're online marketing yourself as a reader or script consultant, that's probably a big part of your business. And so you want to repeat customer earth and happy customers are repeat customers. So a lot of these folks have reputation for skewing everything positive. I'm not saying that's true of all of

them, but a lot of them. And so you know, someone will go online, find someone who used to work at dream Works and Warner Brothers and pay this person X amount of money and then this person says, your script's brilliant, you should go out to the marketplace. I can't understand how that writer would feel confident. And that doesn't mean the stupidest means they're a little big, a little naive, but they're not stupid. So but the

point is people get blacklisted, yet your first impression means so much. And every agent managers everything in the money feeling concess and kind of workshops. They always say single biggest mistakes that writers make new writers is going out to the marketplace before they're ready. Right, So can we I want to change gears for just a second and talk about actual the actual writing process and some of

the ways that people can improve. Now when you talk about not using these paradigms and things like, you know, the structures that are kind of pre built and it's kind of like writing by numbers or whatever, you know, for a lot of people, and a lot of the screenwriters that I've talked to that are not at the same level you are, but they're writing independent films, they kind of rely on that stuff to you know, when they go into the abyss and they're trying to put that together their story, they

use that sometimes to kind of put things together and figure out, you know, how everything's gonna look. What is your advice for you know, let's say, for example, before you're ever writing and sitting down and you know, writing the actual screenplay, what is your process for building that blueprint and that structure of your story before you begin. So that's a great question. I'm gonna have to respectfually say, like that would be an entire podcast in

itself, but here's what I'll say. So, you know, I got hired to write Metropolis where us got at the tapline. I'm in London, Like it's the second night. We're having dinner, and the producer leans over and says, hey, I know you you go to easily stump store. Yes, I do, because you've learned that three S structure of byss and that point and all that stuff. But I'm like, yes, I have, because if you try and write Metropolics to that, yes you've different work.

I will fire you so fast your head will stand and I'll bring me in a real lighter and I I thought he was joking, and I started laughing, and then he said, I am not joking. You know it So fortunate no part of the day took me under their wing and they taught me storyline and or damnic story structure because it actually finished the story and all back traffic. So you know, Leamon was on the front page Variety that really Scott was making it. I got invided all these big cardis around.

I was the guy for like seven minutes, and I was then already actually in my agents the house, and you know, Calichory's there, you know s Form and all these writers who like had careers I could only dream of, and it was shocking. They all just make fun of the writers who

follow these paradigms. And so one of the things I do when I feel like because a lot of my students have had that paradigm hammered into them, is I'll bring in an agent from an agency and I'll ask them to bring in of all the writers they signed in the last year, to bring in the scripts that they signed those writers off the because okay, if it's Calichorius Selman Ludies. If it's Salpla codius juno, you know, you can your

listeners, can you get access to those scripts. But a lot of time, you know, Fasaric singer and it's the guy's fault and that script didn't get mad and there's a good chance that's not sitting there on the internet. So a lot of writers when they get signed. You know, I worked as a writer, just recently coached the writer through the TV pilot. It didn't sell, but it got her all these meetings and she's got a four hundred thousand dollars overall deal at on the studio. But you're not going to

find that script online. So data's will bring in the script that they signing people off of. And then I just have everybody go through the scripts and you can take any of the paradigms that you want, and just how many of those scripts all the paradigns And the answer is usually none, or you know, one or two, but very rarely. That's where we start in my costs, because it isn't about well, Corey says this thing, and

this teacher says that thing, and this is just said that thing. You know, it's just about what the reality is in the market spe I think a big reason that people follow the paradigm is an it's easiest to really understand organic story structure and story design. It takes. It takes training and skill because the whole nother, like a lot of people think what they want to

do is plotting. People don't understand they're interesting plotting and the story. So a plot is this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens. And you're trying to make those things interesting or funny or scary or thrilling, you know, whatever kind of script you're trying to Okay, and you're very focused on this happens, and this happens, and this happens. Oh, and then this happens, and wow, this

happens. That's the plot. Story is the whole difference that makes it interesting. The story makes it meaningful and impactful, and memory a whole different way of thinking about it. And it's the integration of story and thought. And there's just a lot of training and skill sets that go into it. It can be taught, it can be learned. This is the kind of work that the top managers do with their rights. This is and here's the quick well commercial plug. It's what I do in the workshop. And so a

lot of people don't have that training. So then their only options is follow paradise or just follow their instincts to sort of follow their impulses instincts, or allow the character around. But here's the thing. If you follow your characters around, they'll do a lot of interesting things. It's just not going to turn into a really compelling story, which hardly and if you follow your instincts

and impulses, you can write a really interesting first draft. But there aren't many people in the world whose instincts and impulses consistently drive to a successful story. There's a lapis into it's perfect authentic. So you know, I think for a lot of people, their choices are follow up paradigm. We'll kind of make this step up and follow my instincts, and that second option generally

does not lead to subtest. So that's why they follow the paradise. How people follow our agents, so that it's been lied too, you know, they've been told this is what readers look for. You won't be considered by an agent if you don't do this, and it's the opposite. In my current class, I've got like four different readers, and they each one and

I didn't say that. Each one all on their own said, you know, to the class, we've been told to throw away any descripts the quality paradigms because nobody's interested in those kinds of descripts or writer especially I'm a TV for it, so it takes, you know, if I do an entire eighth week workshop in stories of science, So it's it's not feasible for me to answer that question in the short space. But for the listeners, you know, what I would say is and don't take my word for it.

You don't know me. I'm pretty this guy. But maybe if you don't know means and I but don't take the other. Don't take any other guests on this podcast word for it. That's my opinion. Don't take your teacher's work for it does take some famous gurus. Don't don't see anyone's word for It's too important. Get your hands on scripts that have lost careers. That's not that hard to do. If you network around, you can reach out to writers and stay able to be possible to see the script that launched your

career. It's not that hard to get or if you know agents or managers or you know someone orks for an agent, a maeragers, it's just not that hard in the electronic PDF world to get your hands on script. But that's gonna be that's how far is that going to be from the ones that are like the published ones that you see. It's like, now, that's yeah, it's different, Robin as this the we're looking for the script that

last somebody's career. We're looking for the script that you're an unknown writer, you wrote a script and a manager and you know, read the script that I'm gonna work with you or adapt the script that wm me or Cia you know as signed you off of We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Or so for instance, in my case, you could find Metropolis online. The script that launched my career. You cannot find outline. So the script that got me into a room for

really Scott to hiring me and write Metropolis, you can't that script. You're not going to find outline. But you know, Metropolis is a script that you could find out life. But you really want to go back to the script. Anyway, My point is you look at those scripts and then take any of the paradigms that you want and ask yourself, now, it's different with like if you start looking at lower budget genre film, yeah, you know you are going to see a lot of paradigm. It says it's a

different game, it's a different arena. Although that said, you know, if somebody wants to write a thriller script like you, I suggest trying to write an l elevated roll of script that isn't just you know, page from the numbers. You know, for instance, clients a lance. Now it doesn't really care because it's adapted from a novel. But let's just say it wasn't adapted from a novel, Like that's a really thrilling script, but it

has elevated characters elevate. You write a script like that, you have a shot in the majors. You have a shot to launch a career. And if it doesn't happen, you know, you can always go down and well, I guess times happens kind of a it's always expensive to make a you know, but just a you know, a script like et Matina, you know, very contain one location, what two three characters. That's that's the kind of script. It's an elevated script. You know, I'll scars like

that's a great script. And it's not just Paine by the number script. It's just what you're looking for is first of all, we're looking for characters that are authentic and some pal and whenever view characters that have to do certain things on certain pages, certain events have to happen, then they're not going to feel authentic. Secondly, you know, I used to be a studio reader and it's like you knew a script and it's like, Okay, here

comes a big surprise event. It's so not surprising. Okay, here comes a big you know, insight into if you just see it coming from my la. And when you you know, writers are only working on one script. They don't understand the piles of the scripts that are moving through readers lives. And so when you've just read fifty scripts that are structured pretty much the same way, they all just get forgettable. They all feel generic, and

then no one comes. So I was on a screaming kind of a little while ago, and the person some writers like, I'm writing it on a more spread and this expert to stop stop right now. Do just think no one's going to buy an more script, No agent's going to be a better house. But here's the thing that that person luckily didn't listen to that person. They broke that script and they just got fired by a team of agents at c A. I have no idea if that's more script becaself. Probably

not. But it's got PA. They're not Rea, and they're taking lots of meetings. Because here's the thing. I'm a reader and I'm going through a pile script and suddenly there's this dward script doesn't have the insane incident. Page ten doesn't have that, not only the abyss on a certain page, but this kind of a bis or the fault fault low beat on the mids whatever. It doesn't. It's not constructed that way. It's not different for

the sake of being different. It's different because it's an authentic story that's unfolding its own tape, and it has a reason for the way it structured it. And I just never seen a script like this. It's like, the next week i'm driving home, I'm thinking about that script. I ain't thinking about everything else. So when my boss or my friends who worked at another production company says, you read anything good lately. That's the script I'm going

to talk about. That's the script that I will remember, and that's the script that people start talking about. That's the script that can launch your career. So now that said, I have a lot of clients who write those kind of scripts. They don't sell, they take meetings, nothing happens, or at another script like that doesn't sally take meetings. Maybe then the agent says, Okay, we really kind of took a shot at really launching you big. You know, maybe this next script, we do want to bend

it a little bit more towards conventions. Let's take your unique voice. Let's not write a fourth square straight down the middle of take the cat script. Let's not do that because I will just be ignored. But let's take your sensibility and your abilities, and let's see if you can't bend it a little bit towards something a little bit more conventional than see to happen. But that's that's the plan. B. It's not the plan A. Right plan A

is write something that blows people in it what you've seen before. If people go, oh my god, even if I can't buy this script. I want to meet this writer. I want to work with this writer. I love this writing. I would love to work with this writers. That's your job. Get a bunch of relationships, to get a bunch of people excited about you. Maybe that turns into a job, maybe it doesn't. But if it doesn't, you have all these sands who want to work with you.

They're buy another script, a whole another shot, has something happening somewhere down the road. Yeah, and I've seen this with someone like clients to students. Then they'll have that conversation with their agent or narager and maybe then they will say, all right, why don't we write to this target. There's a little bit more of a commercials target, so we can at least get you some money. You can at least start to get your track record.

But while you're doing that, keep writing your original stuff on the side, because when one of those things break, that's how you become an aimless writer. You know. So you think about Earns Target, you think about Alan Ball, you think about Davis Side like Clay the script that makes them or Eric Singer, you know, and you look at a script like American hustle. It's not following the paradigm. It's not conventionally structure script. It's

so uniquely structured, spread with unique strider of scripts. And now even the A S Rider. You know, the guys who wrote The Knick, they they had in the late next career. They're doing comedy. You know, they're not competing for jobs or landing jobs making good money. They write the script the Nick. It's perfect authentic, you know, not following the paradigm's

altfolling the formula. It's original, it's unique. And now after the first year of the NRE, you know, studio heads are taking them out to dinner, stars are taking them outrecture, taking out basically a scent of them chasing jobs. Sure, jobs are chasing them. And that's what happens when you write one of these scripts and it hits, and yeah, be lucky for it to hit. But even if it doesn't hit, it gets you in a room with a really scott to pitch stuff. So that's why you

get the marriage are looking for this. So all I know is that I'm getting more and more people in the industry sending me writers to work with me. Because people will say these writers have all a great sense of dialogue. You can really write actions that can really do common They can really do this, they can really do that, but they don't know. They're just formulized.

I get a lot of MFA students who've been taught that sort of traditional film school approach, which really made sense in the eighties, made a lot of sense in the nineties, kind of stopped making sense seven years ago. And now it's the kiss Aten, Now, what what's the difference with your students? Can you tell the ones who are going to have success and the ones are gonna probably drop off? No, And I've really tried to stay

blind to that. I really think it's important that when I work with everybody,

it gets the exact same focus and exact same enthusiasm. And the other thing, though, is I have worked with people who I privately thought were some of the worst writers I ever like, just like privately was like, I just don't see that their mountain is so high to CLI like, their weaknesses and blind slots are so abundant, and I've seen them become amazing writers and and go on, and I'm not going to name names obviously, but have really good careers certainly it's not true of all of them, but it's

happened enough that it's got me to realize my suspect, doesn't it. It doesn't matter where you start. It matters where you enter, and it matters how committed you are, how growth mindset you are, how willing you are to put in the work. But put in the right amount of work. There's a kind of work because that's where dedicated factors comes in. So a lot of people buy into this idea that if you want to be really good, just keep writing. The more you write, the better you'll get.

It's not true for most people. The more they write, they certainly start learning from mistakes. They certainly do get somewhat it's better, but there's core weaknesses and blowing spots they don't know. There's just consistent mistakes they make. But so the more they write, they just end up with a larger pile of similarly to flawed scripts, they get a feeling they can't get past. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to

the show. A lot of my students come from that space, and so what they get excited about is are there actual exercises that can teach skill that can teach tools that can make them actually significantly get better. I'll see if you are, because we've been talking this sort of exactly and I have to go in a little bit and it's been a while, but i'll give if we have time, I can give one example of one of these skill sets. So at least this is at all left in the app track. Okay,

yeah, I mean that would be good. Okay. So one of the skill sets is what I would call creative imization, and it basically goes down like that. Most writers, when you write, you can work from a conceptual place or an intuitive place, and these are very different muscles and very different approaches, and most writers are wired to work one or the other. So conceptual writers and intuitive writers. That's so conceptual writers tend to write

outside in and in. Tutor writers send to work inside out. Conceptual writers send to When they're working, they're very focused on what other people will be thinking. They're very focused on plotting, They're very focused on logic, making sure things, make things are properly set up, pacing, having interesting things happening. Contutor writers have a very different navigation. They are working from an authentic place. They're working from a place, So what's interesting to them,

what's true to the character, what would the character really do? A very different space. A conceptual writer tends to be somebody who would say, I've got to figure out my story before I write it, where an in tutor writer would say, and you know, write my story so that I can figure it out. Very different and so their scripts get there's a different experience screen the script. For instance, let's talk about characters. Conceptual writers invent

their characters. They design their characters, and so the characters never feel real, they feel invensive. They on some levels feel a little bit like puppet who've been created at least some times to serve the plot. And these writers often have great ideas, they concepts, good plotting that where they're following short in the marketplace. If their characters aren't strong enough. Intuitive writers, it's

a very different experience. Intuitive writers don't invense the characters. They don't design the characters. They discover their characters, and their characters are like real people to them and real people to us, and they speak like real characters or real people, and you can feel that they are like real characters. Black. The intuitive mine is so focused on what is authentic, what the characters

really do. These writers can't construct strong stories, so they have great characters always in search of a strong story, where conceptual writers have all the story worked out that they don't have strong characters, and it gets worse than them with conception. Most conceptual writers, when you read their work, there's all

all this interesting thing happening, all these interesting events are happening. It's just not interesting because you don't feel anything when you read it, because they didn't feel anything when they read the the different space that they're working in here. And so you've got these writers who can get half of the equations but not the other half. And here's the problem. Everybody always write in a way

to try to get the best possible script. You know, if you've been hired by selling a studio or a network, you obviously want to write the best possible script. If you have an agent or a manager, you want them to love your script and champion it and take it out and change your life with it. If you don't have an agent or a manager, you want to write a really great script that you can get an agent or a manager. Or what was kind of new in the game and you're like,

I'm not ready for an agent or a manager. You're probably trying to write the best possible script so that you can feel that you're not wasting your time and that people you show your script to, yeah, maybe you know there's going to be issues with it. At least the kind of feedback you guests leads you to believe you might have a shot and this isn't just a stupid dream that they're chasing. So we're going to always try to write the best

scripts that we can write. And so what we do, knowingly or unknowingly is we played our strength and hide our weaknesses, which is what we should do. You know, if I'm trying to write my best possible script, I should play to my strength and hide and my weaknesses. Well, over time, my strengths get stronger and stronger, and my weakn to get weaker and weaker, and it's a big reason why writers can't get there. They

can't get to that level they need to get to. So one of the skill sets that teach in my workshops is you're going to write to your weakness and hind your ship. So if you're a conceptual writer, You're going to work from a very intuitive place, so you can develop and strengthen them intuitive

side, and so your intuitive side as strong as your conceptual side. By subversi, if you're an intuitive writer, you're working conceptual side, and so the first step is identifying your weak side and developing that, focusing on that until it becomes as strong as your strong side. And then the second step is the actual creative integration, which is learning how to integrate these two sides

so that you can now write great characters and great story. Because pitch perfect authentic, authentic means you have to be a rock star on the intuitive skill set as an intuitive writer, and pitch perfect means you have to be a rock star and a conceptual side. And most people are not integrated, and they're writing practice leads to disintegration. So you know, you talk because structual writers and you at what you're working on. It's always conceptualters hanging out in

the same space. You know, they do horror films, high concept horror films that you thrillers, sci fi, big idea common these actions big plot driven, concept driven material because they can kind of hide the fact that they're not that great. A characters, the dialogue. Two diviriters are writing small, quirky character emotional type material where it's all about the characters and the dialogue and the emotion, kind of hiding the fact that they're not really that good

at story structure. Well, the thing is, there's a lot of people out there who can write really good emotion character stuff that can't do story structure, and nobody really cameters for the most part about those rights. We're looking for writers that can do both. When of my students directing a soulment's coming out in two weeks or heart structing as film for paramount comedies, texting it's

called drunk Weddings, it's just being really hot. And so there's a buzz about this guy, and you know, he was complaining to me because he's reading all these scripts with me for his next project. And there's all these scripts. He says, they're really funny, great jokes, great structured, great idea, that characters they just feel like stock characters and there's no heart

to it. And I'm just not gonna cook my career bag in up to one of these scripts because and then I read scripts that like they are great characters and there's a sense of like heart to it, but it's just there's no story, there's no stakes. The structures all over the play because it's so hard to find someone that can do both. And then his complaints hears all the time because I finally find one of those scripts and of course he's spoken for, you know, and and you know it's been bought by the

major player. You know, the big players. They're buying up all these scripts because either they want to make it or they want to keep up and coming competition from Build and makes those scripts. So you know, if someone's listening to this and they're so great at a character, an emotion and dialogue, if they can get better at structure and actually tell interesting stories like American Duties, you know have both very rarified company and they will be fought after.

Vice the versa. If you have someone listened to this and they're really good and they love horror film, they love it constant horror film or thrillers, love budget or studio level comedy action would have you you can get better at the character, firm and the and have some genuine emotion in there, man, you stand out. You stand out because there's just so a few people that can do them. So that an example one of the things that

work up in the workshop, and it's called creative integration. You know, for those of you listening, if you're interesting in this, going on my website it's Coreymandel dot net. You know, I teach something called professional screenwriting the Workshop, which is the Foundational Workshop, and it teaches conceptual and then through the skill set for eight weeks. And sorry inference in the commercial that

I'll help you quick with it. We do it. We do it in LA, in Santa Monica, and if you don't live in LA, or if you do so in LA, we do it online using web acts. So if you take another online clapses. This is like real time. So it's like going to a quick and mortar class. You can see and hear everybody. You just get to be at your computer and can We've had writers taken from all over the world. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. The uh. The June ones

are sold out. We tend to be about six months out. She'll be doing them in September and those are starting to sell out. That there's still spaces if you really wanted to do the June one. You can email my assistant and she could put it on the waitlist, and sometimes a spot don't open. So my website Corey Mendel dot net and my assistant is Lisa, So she's Lisa at Corey Mendel dot net. If you want to email me Corey at Corey Mendel dot net, and those emails are on the website,

which is callymndell dot net. Everything I suggest is signed up for the newsletter. We will often we do that once a month interview an agent or interview manager will interview letter to sold script. So that might be of interest. But and I know that we were talking a long time. I think, you know, let's see what's their spons is from your listeners. Maybe people to think of a big blowhard, but if you for it, people are interested in this stuff you want. I'm happy to come back and talk about

more of the skills. I think we talked a lot about sort of the marketplace and agents the managers are thinking and looking for. And we talk a lot about mistakes. People make it and let me have to accomplish. But we haven't really And I know this is what your latter questions were but this ulthor subject of Okay, how do you actually do it? What are you skill? I could certainly talk more about that if you want it. You know, if there is interest from your listeners and you want to have me

back, I'd be happy to do it. Yeah, man, that would definitely be great. I mean there's even the stuff that you were just talking about that I would love to go further into detail with. But yeah, we would need more time. So but yeah, I really appreciate it, and we you know, let's definitely do like a part two sometime when we get more into actual screenwriting and structuring and all the you know, the nuts and bolts of it all. Love to do it all right, man,

Well, I appreciate it. Thanks a lot for coming on the show, and you know, I want to thank Jason so much for doing such a rate job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV. Forward slash three thirty two. Thank you so much for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk

to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasts at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.