BPS 330: Inside the PIXAR Story Brain Trust with Rob Edwards

You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three thirty False when things change, I'll be happy True, when I am happy things will change. Kyle Sea's broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next

draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored

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It's like over two hours long, but is just pack with such great information. I wanted to dig deeper into one area that I have a particular interest in. It's the Pixar Brain Trust storytelling meetings. So how does Rob fit in? But here's a quick bio of Rob's work. Rob Grip and Detroit moved out to Los Angeles and had an agreement with his dad that he would find work in the industry within the first nine months he was there. Now

here's where Rob's hustle is on full display. Now this was back in the mid nineteen eighties. He would call every production company in town and asked the person on the other line if they wanted to hear a joke or a piece of gossip. Most of the time, Rob was able to get a laugh from them with his jokes, while those who picked the gossip would share even juicier stories with Rob of their own. Now, all the people at these

production companies would ask what Rob wanted. Now, Rob didn't ask for anything return, He just said that he would call back and let them know. So when he calls back the people at these production companies they remembered him, and when he asked for work, they were more inclined to hire him because the fact that at least there would be a guy around the office who could tell jokes all day. Robert worked these production gigs during the day and at

night write his scripts. Now the hustle paid off because he was eventually hired as a writer for television before he was twenty one. Then that's crazy. Since then, here are Rob's credits. He's been a writer on Full House, in Living Color, The Fresh Prince of bel Air, which most of the stories are based on his own experience while attending prep school in Detroit. In fact, Rob went to the same school as Aaron Sorkin, who Rob

worked with on Studio sixty later on. Now, we didn't get a chance to go into detail about working with Aaron Sorkin, but I do hope to have Rob back again one day, so there's talk about more stories. You know. Rob's work eventually landed him over at Disney, where he wrote Treasure Planet and The Princess and the Frog. Rob was there at Disney when the Pixar guys took over story development, and that is where we pick up the

story. I've always been fascinated by how Pixar continually knocks it out of the park with their stories. In the book Creativity Inc. By Ed Catmill, who was one of the founders of Pixar, explains how the development of this brain trust group has been proven to be invaluable to the storytelling process for Pixar.

So I'm thinking, how does it work? What happens in those rooms that is different than getting studio notes or working in a writer's room, and now here today we need to find out because Rob worked firsthand in these brain trust meetings for The Princess and the Frog. What I hope you get from this episode is some real world strategies of how to make your stories better.

I mean, after all, it's not every day you get to sit in on a Pixar storytelling meeting, So sit back and enjoy my conversation with Rob edwords with the film Trooper. The goal was to try to help sort of the uber independent filmmaker, the one that things have changed so much in the filmmaking landscape. Obviously, you have the studio system, you have sort of like the indie Hollywood like people that have one foot in the studio system and

put put in like the film international film market. And there's probably like ninety percent of everybody now that has a camera and can edit movies on their laptop right now. They've entered the scene. But there's a different sort of business economics for them, and you know, we're just sort of discovering it. And but at the core of all this is still telling a great story.

So because I also came from the video game world. For like twelve years, I worked at Sony PlayStation and I was a cinematic supervisor there making you know, movies for video games. But our department was considered fluff because at the heart of all video games is the gameplay. So if movies and television is, if story is king. Then in video games, gameplay is king because you can have amazing graphics on your video game, but if it's sluggish,

if it's not fun to play, people put it aside. So I wanted to if you would indulge me, just like, imagine this setup where we have these uber independent filmmakers that they are learning the skill sets as a filmmaker to shoot at it, you know, direct what it may be, but we do see a lot of it fall short in terms of the storytelling

aspect of things. And with your history, with your experience, I'm really curious about what you saw in the transition one working in writers rooms, working in collaboratively, but then on top of that working with Disney, especially on that transition when Pixar you know, came in, And I would really love to know more about could you take us through a little journey of like how the brain trust meetings work or because if if what I'm trying to do is

if there's something there, there's these nuggets there that we can then identify and say, Okay, so if you're like an uber independent filmmaker and you're writing your story right now, how can you simulate on your own by we were talking about the accountability group, you know or masterminds. Could you create something like that that's very specific to creating your own version of a brain trust group?

And if so, would be those inner workings that that we could apply that'd be like, oh, like, how do you get in a room where people can be free to be have candor without being consulting you know exactly? Well, that's see, that's the thing I mean, the question is is kind of the answer because it's that is the for me at at Disney Pixar, I saw the pre John Lasseter Disney, you know, with Treasure

Planet. That was all you know, the old regime where there were levels, levels after levels of middle management and uh and everybody, and you know, sometimes a note would come down from on high, you know whatever, and it would get some something simple like somebody would just read something and say, hey, I wonder if we could do this, and then middle management would just pound us and say this has to happen. You know, there's

no you know, uh, there is no other version. And we would look at it and we would say, hey, look we tried this. It doesn't work. It makes the movie bad. And they would say, no, we got this note and you have to do it. And then we would do it and it would go back to the person, you know, the voice on high and he would say, what is this? This is this is crap. They said, well, this was your note. This isn't you know this addresses your note? Like no, no, no,

that was just a thought. You know, that didn't work. You should have thrown it out. And that's what you know, middle management kind of does to kill you. What's great about the brain Trust is that it's it's too one is I'll say, the impossible part of it. We'll start

there. The impossible part of it is you're never going to find yourself in a room with Brad Bird and you know, Anderson, the doctor, Bobby, and that these guys are gonna say, hey, it's very important that your movie is good, you know, and we'll invest in it with with an artist's heart. And you know, that's very tough. Having said that, you can construct rooms of filming before they were Pisarre, there were just a bunch of guys who almost got shut down, you know. For Toy

Story, Toy Story was a mess. The first draft of Toy Story, the first version, first set of reels of Toy story was a mess. What he's yelling at everybody? You know, everybody was cowering in fear. It was the most by their admission, the most unlikable film ever. And then uh what what what Pete Peyton Bob said was that Pete doctor I said

that Andrew Setton kind of went into a room and figured it out. You know, he went into a room with all of the texts, you know, the Doc Truby whatever and Robert McKee and all the notes that they had had from everything, along with his own thoughts about you know, movies that he'd like, the notes that they had gotten. You know, why wasn't picks, why it wasn't toy story working. We'll be right back after a

word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And how had they arrived at this place where even Steve Jobs was saying like, okay, guys, maybe it's maybe this isn't maybe this isn't the right the right fit. And he came out and said, I got it. It needs to be this and this and this and those are the rules that you always see, you know, in their ted talks and that you know of of what they do, which they frequently break By the way, guys, in every

movie they have happy villages. They just don't call the happy villages. There is a you know, there is an I want song. Everybody has to state what it is they want. But those rules, basically what they do is they enforce the rules and the way that the the the brain Trust works. At least what I saw is that they start off. What you don't get that you do get sometimes from your buddies is hey, a great movie.

Yeah, and that's that's the worst thing in the world. You know, it's just it's the the uh, I would say, savagery of low expectations. This is very good. Yes, don't change a word of it. That's awful. What you say is, okay, what is the biggest problem? That's where That's where andrewsand would usually start. So, okay, what is the biggest problem. Let's start there, and then let's let those things filter down because some of the smaller problems that people have may be things

that started with the bigger problems. When you see when you say a big problem, is that the actual what's the biggest problem of the story not working? Or what is the biggest problem in the story, or like, what is the protagonist's problem. The biggest problem with the story not working. Okay, and it and it is it is. Your buddy will say, oh, it works, it just needs this a the brain trust says it's not working. You know, the the the the default is it doesn't work.

These movies just don't work, you know. And if they are, if they're good, it's still not good enough. You know, they're not great. They're not everybody's favorite movie. You're not gonna you're not gonna turnstile. You know, you're not gonna leave the theater, buy a ticket and come right back in. Yeah. Yet, especially in the first second draft, a lot of people will stop there. That's a that's a major problem.

I see a lot is it. Writers will say they'll do a draft or two and they'll say, oh, great, you know this is good. It all works, and then they'll stop. You can't. You have to say, okay, well what you have to plus it? You have to say, Okay, what's the next level of this? You know, we have a really great uh eddemole has a has a has a great scene.

She's auditioning the costumes for the New Incredibles. Okay, that's fine, but what's the next level of it. You know, oh great, let's put her on a chair and the tier goes back and forth and we have everything, you know, we show everything as it's happening. Okay, awesome,

you know. Now it's plus you know, and then can you plus it even more the reactions to it all that kind of stuff, because yeah, I'm sorry, that's definitely like a flaw within like this world of the uber independent, like they kind of work a script a little bit, but they just get it too good enough. They're like, I think I can make this right, right, right exactly, you know, and you can make

it. Really, you can make anything. And sometimes that's the best thing a professional can do for you is just say, okay, this, you can make this. This is fine. You know, you can roll the cameras, it'll all, it'll all shoot well, but you're gonna get creamed by the by the critics. You know. You're it's good enough for forty four percent ripe tomato, you know, but you're not going to get that

ninety nine unless you super super push it. And especially with independent films, there are fantastic independent films, and then there are some that you just say like, oh, you know, I can yeah that when they when your friends send you the links. Yeah, yeah, everybody knows you watch it. It takes you four four times to get all the way through it because you're just kind of like, okay, well this is this is okay, but nothing is really gripping, you know, getting me gripped to the screen.

On the other hand, you'll see, like you know, the Marvel films, the new you know, the new Marvel films, the obviously the Pixar films, films that are well told. They drive you. You know, you instantly have a character that you understand that you really want them to achieve their goals, and then the opposition is just monumental. And then you're just watching them be clever and cool and and wonderful and make their way through the story. Yeah, well then that is that is a school of storytelling.

And the way that you get to that is that thing where you know, somebody at the table, hopefully everyone at the table, says, look, let's start with protagonists. What does the protagonist want and how much do they want it? Straight up? You know, first question. I'll see dozens of scripts, stacks and stacks of scripts, and I'll ask thembut I'm twenty pages into this, I can't tell who you know, what the protagonist wants. If I can tell who the protagonist is, I can't tell what

they want. And that just sucks. You know. That means you know you have terrible friends read your script, you know with any honesty and told you you know, look, it is a chore to turn the pages of the script. Can I ask you with the I know that you know obviously

Pixar Disney is and it is animation. And in the pitch process, like when the brain Trust group comes together, is it just is the initial meeting just the script phase or do they come like here's the script phase with some storyboards or you know, they put up a board and somebody acts it out, or like how does the how does the other members acquire the story or is it presented to them or do they actually read a script come into the

meeting? And I guess the second part of the question, is there like a moderator, is you know right? Or is it more of a loose like all right, everybody, this is a story we're making, you know, Rob's news story. He's the director on it. We read the script or we've seen the pitch, are ready for their pitch, or like,

how does that? How does the room work? Then I'm just curious because if I'm going to do something like on an uper independent level, should I come to the table with some storyboards and present it as much as possible. I'm I'm just trying to figure out how I can the best I can to simulate what they're doing in the brainch Yeah exactly, Yeah, well Anderson has those things is be be wrong as early as possible. You're gonna be wrong,

you know, It's and again that's always the assumption. It is broken. It was broken until the last possible second. And even Ron Clements and John Musker, Yeah, you know Princes the Frog and your planet, yeah planet, and you know, uh a little thing called Little Mermaid, a little thing that those guys what Don Hall, the head of story He would say, they like to leave the paint wet, meaning that you're always developing,

You're always you're always coming up with ideas. You're leaving that door open for that new, wonderful idea to come in. Even when I was working with Aaron Sorkin on Studio sixty, he would we would talk about Yo. It was kind of a paperless office. You know, you don't write it down, don't lock any idea down. It's just you're just talking out stuff. So when you start off with with with with John Lasseter and I was working on a project called King of the Elves, was based on a Philip

K. Dick short story. Okay, And what you do is you start talking about who are the main character is going to be? You know, And in this case it was kind of like I wanted to just for me as a writer, I wanted to address some of what I was going through with my I have two sons and and just this idea of what is it What are you looking for a son to do? When do you know that a son has is ready to go off to college, is ready to you know, has become a man. You know, as a father, you're

always searching around for stuff. You're trying to figure out fatherhood as you go. And so what is it? You know, what is that look that you want to see in your son's eyes that says I'm ready? And how do you get there? There? And can we do that? In the in the in the course of this this story, which is essentially about these sides, which is essentially about these uh elves and this guy who essentially inherits and inherits this elf world. So yeah, so so so you start there,

Okay, well these are this is the emotional palette. This is what I think is is going to be fun. Let me kill that thing. Sure, sure, go ahead, Sorry about that, you want to clean? Where did I start? We're talking about your You're working a story about you have two boys, but you know, when do you get that moment? How do you how do you capture that moment when it's in their eyes that they're ready for manhood, are ready to leave the nest or whatnot?

Yeah? Exactly, yeah, and so yeah, so for me, that's what I was exploring. That's just what I'm exploring in life. And I thought, okay, this is a great way to to to write it and kind of you know, share it with people. I'll have a lot of insights on it. It'll it'll be informative to me. It'll be a movie that I would want to watch. Which start And then I was talking to John about it and John said, oh, man, my son is sixteen

two, and there's this look they give you and and everything. We just started sharing stories about you know, just how do you get through to them? And what do you give them? And you know, just how do you raise a boy? And we're sharing the story, shared story, shared stories here, and I said, okay, excellent, I know, I know what I'm going to do. So I go off from that basic conversation because I know, okay, good, he's an audience I'm an audience member.

And that's another one of the Andrew Stanton Yeah that I cling to, which is a film goer first, a film maker second. So I go I set out to look at the story, which is very light. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, and say, okay, what can I do? Basically, how can I get a rise out of John? You know, I'm gonna story what I do is going to get a rise out of John. What are going to be those real, great, honest moments that we can do?

So I go through what we know story team. We we kind of plot and there's it's fantastical and it's all kinds of stuff, but at its core it's got this really great emotional emotion to it, just like Princess and Froger and Evos. Yeah, yeah, and and then and then you are pitching kind of a wall of drawings. Uh, you know, first act is

on one wall. Actually second act is on it, so on two walls, and then the third act is on the is on the next wall, you know, because for a second act is always in two parts of two yeah, with the midpoint and then uh you know. And and it's funny because John will and I use this method all the time. John walks in and he goes third act, he walks right up to it and he's, Okay, where's that moment? You say, well, you know it's it's

there. And what he's looking for is what's the epiphany? What's that little thing you know, where the the uh where you know where he is going to turn into a star or when you know the both Tiana and Vine are going to decide, you know, to uh that there to trade their journey for their relationship all the things they want. What is that? What is

that moment? Like in yeah, in every you know, when when Luke I was you know, when when Luke chooses the you know, the force over the over the right, you know, what is that and what is the and then you go back and you say okay, great, well, what are the elements I need to tell? That's that story. And so he's looking at that point at the mechanics, and then you go through it. You pitch it once he's once he has bought off on that that moment working great, Oh yeah, I can see that. I can see crying

at that moment. Then you go back and he says okay, you know, he sits down in his chair and he says, okay, Act one, Scene one, A flaming qualifier comes in from space and whatever, and you're trying to give it as good a look as you can. Yeah, you know, it doesn't help you to soft sell a pitch, you know, even if it is rough, even if you just have little heads with smiley faces on it. Yeah, you pitch it. You know, it's

your favorite movie. So you're you're you're going with it, going with it, going with it, you sell out and go and then he says, okay, great, I see it got slow here, it got slow here whatever, I bought off on the ending. But and then you start doing your story map right, if you're gonna if you're gonna have Luke use the force to sell, you know, to to shoot down the desk Star.

There should be a scene in the middle of the movie where he realizes that the force is stronger than, you know, than than just any mechanical concerns. What if we put a helmet on him or something some oraculous happen and then that'll be that And then how do we get him there? Well? Okay, cool? He should be a kid who wants to I don't know, he wants adventure. And how many of these movies start with, you know, I want I want to live more than the provincial life, or

I want to you know whatever. Yeah, looking out of the window, Harry Potter wanting something, you know, something better than living under the stairs exactly, and you know, uh where Poe is looking at his his shelf full of things going on? Oh man, it would be so awesome to be a kung fu master o'neo looking, you know, seeing the rabbit. You know that that that there's that call and then you say no, you know because again just whatever, jump on the thing. You have to say

no to that call. And then you go through, like I say, the story math. What's going to get him into the second act? How is he locked in? Well, Luke, you're going to burn down his family. His family's anything keeping him in this world, his uncle who says, no, you're gonna sit here, you know, drink green milk and

be a good boy. And and so you burn that down because Luke's first intention is just to is just to get the old man to the bar and be done with you know, look, I'll get to that far, but you know, you're all this other stuff is crazy talk and h and by the time he gets to the bar, he's kind of in it. And and then off they go. I'm the adventure or whatever, you know, And the first part of the adventure is is impossible because the planet has been

destroyed. And then you're just going getting him deeper and deeper into it. All you're doing is looking at that endpoint, like when is he completely bought it? When is he going to sacrifice his life, take on this his role as you know, jetmaster and whatever and embrace the ways of the fourth Yeah, of course that's the whole thing. And you're gonna make it difficult for him all along the way. You're going to build up the opposition as

much as you can. So going back to the brain trust, those are the elements you're looking at it and you're saying, Okay, you're telling this type of story. And a lot of times it's a straight up film theory. I don't know if you're a film student or whatever, but all you do in film school it is wonderful is you watch a ton of movie and

watching old musicals, You're watching whatever. You know. For me, when I start a movie, I'll go, you know, I'm gonna watch every spaghetti western that ever was boom, you know, and I'll just I'll just go through my Netflix quew is just you know, just budding with stuff. I'm gonna watch every kung fu movie, every crazy kung fu movie that I can find, and I'll just go through every single everything, single weird one. I'll do all of my research. I'll just kind of become in bett,

you know, just completely embedded in this stuff. Let it seep into my DNA, and then I really and then I'll see the matrix. I'll see, Okay, this is how these types of stories are told. If I can stay on this path, I think I'll be fine. And I think also I'll be satisfying the audience that that enjoys this type of movie. So yeah, and then off I go. Then I know, like I'm working on a project right now, there's the airport for yeah, a studio,

I'll say studio. Yeah, but it's you know, completely mainstream. But it's one of the things I said was was the audience has seen a ton of movies like this and and the uh it's in the category of the of like Maze Runner and Insurgent and those kind of things, and the audience of that of that genre is often like they're really super skeptical, you know, if you if you show them like what is it? There's a ton

of these kind of Percy and those things. You know, there are a bunch of these movies that come out and the audience has never absorbed, you know, just never takes them in. And then you're done. And so there are things that you need to do. There are tropes that they want to see, but they don't want to see the same tropes as they've seen in the other movies. So you have to mess with them and mess with

them in a very clever way. So that it said an very early signal that Okay, this is cool, you know, forget your popcorn, lean in and enjoy the movie. Yeah, that's the plussing. That's the extra extra extra right, and hopefully, like a bad room would be a room full of people who don't all like making the same kind of movies. You know, they're going to pull you in every direction. Good. You know, you go into Marvel and all those guys have read every single comic book,

throw off a reference. They will all go, oh, yeah, and this, and then you could do this, and then the room just explodes with everything, you know, all the minutia. Everybody will go, you know what's great about that issue? Was this and this and this happened. No, here's what I think. I think this is what made it

great. But this, you know, this episode and this, this issue and this issue didn't do well because of this, and everybody will have their theory and great, if you can move towards this and away from that, you'll be fine. And that's generally what happens in those brain trust meetums is it's a yes and kind of table. That is that is literally the same principles of improv yes exactly. The whole teaching is an actor will give you

something and the other actor has to say yes and yes. Literally, that's what it is. Act I act up here in Portland, so you know, just for my acting friends and stuff like that. So it's one of those things that's funny that you brought that up. Yeah, do more of that because it becomes for me. Yeah. I did a lot of improv in college, and I did some instand up as well, and improv.

Yeah, after and even in my stand up I would leave. I'd always i'd consider it in quarters, right, I would do my introductions and kind of get everybody into like, this is who I am, this is where my comedy is going to come from, guys, so get you to it. Yeah, exactly ten jokes in this area, and then I would kind of like, Okay, now that we're friends, now that we know each other, here we go. You know, we're gonna go and go into

this. And then third quarter I would just kind of kick back and I'd say, hey, let's talk about something, and I would just riff and and you know, I would just I would ask the audience a question or else, you know, or whatever, and I would just go on whatever I was given. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Just lean into it and fly and then i'd of course wrap it up with some you know, some stuff that was

money night and you know whatever, drop the mic and take off. But that that and and frankly, it's also the same kind of thing that happens in a TV room, like you had mentioned before, you know, in sitcom rooms, that's exactly what happens, because literally you cannot afford in a sitcom room for somebody to go yeah, I don't know, you know. So when I was running tables, I would always say buy it or beat it, you know, being okay, there's an idea on the table that

I believe to be very good. If you think of a better idea, pitch it now. Otherwise we're going to build off of the idea we have, but we're not going to spend an hour and a half just kind of shooting, you know, just telling everybody why it's a bad idea. So so it winds up being really really great. So that's exactly what you find in the pis room. Somebody will say, well what if? You know, that's the first thing. What if? And anytime anybody says what if

and whatever, the room gets really quiet. Even if you have even if you have your own what if you're like, okay, great, I'm just gonna get in line. Yeah, what if we turn the whole thing upside down and this happens, and then this happens, and instead of everybody going oh, shut up, you go, okay, if that happens, then this would also happen, and this and this, and then this would happen and this and this. All the energy winds up around that that idea.

Boom boom boom, and you're just building a mountain off this idea, and hey, you know what's a great sequence with that? You can do this and this and this, and then somebody else will say, hey, and that will fix this scene because you can do this instead, and they'll start

pitching the dialogue and everybody were cracking out the jokes and all that. And then sometimes you get to the top of that of that mountain and you go, I don't know, built this whole thing, and you say it's good, but it's not necessarily better than what we had before, or it's good, but it's a whole other movie or whatever, and then it gets quiet and everybody digests what we had, and then the next person says, well what about this? Boom? And then you start, you build again,

same energy and everything. Everybody gets into everything. There is no there is some negative and because some people will say, ah, you know, we tried that and blah blah blah blah blah. But if you were going to

make it work, here's what you would do. I say. So everybody is looking at it in terms of they're making the movie and that you get too, which is you know, uh, which I think is wonderful because Brad Bird is going to have a different idea in his head and Pete Doctor, Yeah, and Pete Doctor is going to have a different one than than Mark, you know, than than even even John. And John's gonna have

you you know whatever, and everybody's gonna it's an orchestra, right. So John is, John's got a big heart at John's or whatever, and he's he's a big kids who he's gonna love the you know, a big block scene. Uh, Andrew is looking to make sure it's you know, you're checking the boxes. Uh, Pete's got you know, Pete's got his take. You know, Brad's a cowboy, you know, he he's he's doing his thing. And uh and in that symphony, you have like, Okay,

great this is this wonderful set of ideas. Even what is it? Michael, Arn't you know who wrote to you know, a little sunshine? He comes in and he I love the way he thinks because he thinks a lot like me. I'm a I'm a structured guy. Uh. You know when when I when I started doing sitcoms, there were two rooms, were three rooms. There was there was the room of guys who would think about

the stories. There was story guys, you know, who would who would as you were breaking the story, they would sit down and say, well, it should be this and then this and then this, you know, and just plot out the plot out the story, knowing where the jokes were going to come. And then we would invite a larger group in and then those would be the joke guys would come in and say oh yeah, and

then this and this. You know, they would have great dialogue. And I saw very early, you know, they were like, well, which room do you want to be? And I was like, I want to be in the room with the exect producer, you know, And that's the story room that those guys seem to be. Those guys are working all the time, and those guys anytime stuff was wrong, they would kick the joke guys out of the room, and a very small group of story guys would

work would work through it. And story guys where the guys who would hold the pencil, meaning they would make the last decision. They would write down whatever the choice was. And and so I like that a lot. And even now as I'm working in chers and stuff, it's always the story guys who are kind of called in when things are really wrong. They'll say, okay, please help us, you know what's wrong with it, and you go in with your toolbox, unmotivated character. The third act moment doesn't work,

Let's build back from that. What are the values that we're doing here and go through And before I go to the I just want to kind of recap sure, like make sure I'm I'm grabbing the essence of everything you're talking about. There's it sounds like there's a little bit of a I think your cable might be hitting I think it's hitting my shirt. So okay, yeah, you get you get a little story just you and I. Yeah, they go, okay, good, is it going clean? Clan clean?

Yeah? Yeah, yeah, man, is that's not too bad? It's but I just it's such great information you have and it's just you and I on the video, so it's all good. Look like a prison shirt or

hopefully that's perfect. So the well we can what I can gather from here is I like this concept of one make sure that the room that you create, the group that you create, if you're going to create your own brain trust group, you know, if you're writing a horror genre, you know, make sure you have people that like it, that helps have studied up

on it. Yeah, exactly, that know that know the genre that no the tropes that have a passion for it, that that can gel with you as well as I like this idea that you start from the b end what is that one thing or just have that conversation, like what is the one thing you want on this film? The story? Is it the moment? What does that magic moment, that third act moment that makes it the payoff all worth it? And then reverse engineer go back from the beginning and work

towards that. I like all that. I love this that little note you gave about the second act the midpoint of like, if the payoff and the third act, then that magic movie moment is it works? You have to give us a little taste of in the midpoint, which is great, you

know, and it totally makes sense. But then obviously the people that you put together have to know, you know, their story structure or you know that they're just their film geeks or other filmmakers themselves that are have an opportunity to contribute to the storytelling process where you know, we all seem to do it. Anyway, after we watch a movie, we're like, why didn't

not work? You know, like I think my wife, My wife and I just rewatched the remake of Poltergeist last night and were huge fans of the first one. I mean watched that many times over and seeing what happened, you know, our own analysis of taking away. And it's interesting the conversation you have just saying why why didn't it work? Because you're trying to figure out like what's gut wise, what's what's what's something's off? Whyden? Is

it not working for us? And I think it was. I think it was like it took an hour, like originally a two hour movie into an hour and a half, and it was like go time from the beginning, like there was no one. It was just like bang bang bang, there was no time to catch your breath, and it it definitely felt rushed than all the wonderful cinematic you know, vision visions of the stuff. But it was there's some soul aspect missing. I think. See that's the thing.

Because that and because I was going to ask you, okay, what what what did you think was was was missing? So in what part of the movie do you think it was missing from? If you if your conclusion was that it was soulless, and we and we're in the brain Trust meeting right now, so yea, yeah, yeah, this conclusion was that Polter Guys was souless? Where how do you fix that? Where? What? What?

What had they taken out? Because you have in this case, it's empirical, right, you have a movie that works and a movie does not that does not work. That are the exact that are supposed to be the exact same movie, right, so you can kind of look at them side

by side, you know. And I'm notorious for this. I'll get iTunes and I'll just i will watch five minutes of one movie, five minutes of another movie, the next five minutes of the next, and I'll just I'll completely go go through because a lot of movies will have If you watch Point Break and Fast and Furious, they're the exact same movie, right, and they will tell you they're the exact same movie, and uh, every you know, in every way you know, and and so the question is,

okay, great, will those two work now? Now this one? Okay great? So so we're back to it's soulless. That's our problem. Where did that come from? Definitely? I think from watching the remake and being a fan, like you said, being so well versed in the first one and seeing it many times over. You know all the nuances, you know all the scenes, but mostly from the from it was there's a sense of wonderment and awe and sort of respect for this, this deeper conversation about the

paranormal that was existed in the first one. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show again. We're talking about somebody remaking Spielberg exactly. Yeah, but Spielberg's got a bag of tricks that is very interesting. And when I look at Spielberg, I always look at man. I just had this conversation with Spielberg himself. Well, his daughter went to school with my son. So it was okay, it's kind of fun. You know. We got and and his and his other son

too, karate class with my older son. So wow, okay, so it's just all this cross ower. But but we never like, hey, tell me about Jaws or whatever. But I did get a chance to meet the writer of Jaws, I said, Jenner with him a couple of months ago, and and we were talking just about those things of Manucia, of all of that stuff. And when I look at Spielberg, I always look at when I'm analyzing a filmmaker, the first couple of films, the first

two films. I may have mentioned this failure, but that that that I always look at them when they're in their infancy, when they're trying to put together their bag of tricks, and then I try to find what is their worst film. And for Spielberg, it's nineteen forty one right there. And in nineteen forty one he is doing he's showing his bag of tricks, but he's doing everything wrong. And you can tell like, oh, this is what he what he does great, everything that he does great in the in

the first couple of movies, he does really poorly. Here and everything that he did great like an Et. And this gets to the answer of what I was digging at with the two Poulter guys is that it's the first act. It's a first act problem that that you when you buy into something emotionally, it's if you don't feel it emotionally, it's because when we met those

people, we didn't care about them exactly. You know, if it's a roller coaster ride, if if they're thinking, well, the best thing about we told you guys is the little girl gets sucked into the TV and whatever, there's a closet and all that stuff like that is not the best thing. It's about this family. It's about this guy who is who is you know, has moved his family into this into this new environment. He's worried

that there is something wrong with the area. There's this drumbeat of weird things that have been happening around the area, and you're filling in the character. It's like it's like Jaws, It's like Et. It's everything. The conversation that they have at at breakfast in ET before ET shows up is the most important conversation you have. Yeah, I remember in Princess and the Frog, there was this whole thing of we were just we're trying to get them into

the body as quickly as possible. And the note we kept getting back in the brain trust, because that's the other part of the brain trust, right, is you screen the movie. You're showing the movie to a lot of people, and they're giving you notes back. Everybody in the building, everybody at Disney, everybody a Pixar. You get reams of notes. Uh, I didn't think, you know, this is a problem, this is a

problem. This is a problem. And then they put the notes into sections, so someone's about you know, the main character, or something about you know, the story itself. And then we were getting all these notes. I you know, the story seems funny. I just don't care. I don't care about the journey. Yeah, And I said, well that's the first act problem. Same thing. And you didn't care because she wanted to have a restaurant, but you didn't care why she wanted to have a restaurant.

So I said, well, hey, I saw this drawing of a dad. I love this story. Yeah, yeah, this keep going on. This is a great done. I don't want there was a dad picture of drawing of a dad and Basically, they were trying to figure out what the mom looked like. So they had drawn a dad just to figure out, you know, what were the features that that Tiana had gotten from both of her parents, and then that would be the mom. And there was this a drawing and I asked the character designer, what you know, what

is this like? Oh, we explained it, and I said, well this is Can I borrow this? And I took it back into the room. I said, this guy is the most important person in the movie because daughters, that relationship between daughters and fathers, and we've been looking driving so hard to have a person to have an emotional reason why she wants to have this restaurant. Why not? Why can't it be the daughter the dream of a daughter and her father, and and that the legacy of that once the

father passes away, she wants to continue that dream. And then there is no way the thing can't have emotion. It's a woman holding you know, it's it's what they did in up right the house at a certain point becomes you know that Karl is trying to continue the dream that he had with his with his wife. That's that's the And I could mention probably fifty other movies that are fueled with that kind of emotion. There is a reason why we tell stories in that way. And so once that happened, it was a

tiny adjustment. It was about three pages and in the beginning of the movie, and everybody said, wow, what did you do? Did you rewrite the entire movie? Like, no, we just gave every time, you know, she says the word restaurant, you know what it means. And I had to hit it. I think in the middle, at the midpoint, when they're right before they dance, and then at the end when they're on the riverboat and they're looking looking out at the restaurant itself, and it's

what gets Navine to back off. He wants to proposed to her, and it has such huge emotional weight that it's like, Okay, great, my job here, My job here has done the mechanics. The rest of the mechanics of the storytelling were I don't want to say inconsequential, but they were less consequential because we had launched the story correctly. You watch a movie like Man on Fire, they spent a ton of time. I don't think anybody

dies until the midpoint of that movie. Yeah. The whole movie is about this broken guy's love for this little girl and how this girl redeems has his soul and makes him, stops him from committing suicide. Yeah, you know, the bullet doesn't go off. There is something, you know, the god of the story has a larger plan for this guy, and it's about this. It's about this relationship with this little girl. And you know, he starts coaching her about you know, don't be afraid of the gun and

all that, and and they have this wonderful, wonderful relationship. So at the point when she's kidnapped, you're like, oh no, yeah, go down, because now this guy has license. You know, he is he is fired up. And if you look at I'm sorry when I say last example, but if you look at Taken, Taken follows the exact same model. That girl doesn't get kidnapped. Chill deep into that movie yet heartbreak, heartbreak, the pony versus the you know, karaoke machine, all of those

scenes. If you're looking at it from an executive standpoint, you'll think, oh god, you know the movie is really about it. It's a shoot them up, and why is it taking sixty minutes before the guy fire is the first shot. You know, well, like, can't we just condense this and you have to as a writer, as an artist, say no, people don't watch buildings burn. They watch people saving the people they love that are in the building that is on fire. You know that that's drama.

Yeah, it's interesting. You know you brought that up. It got me excited because you were saying, like how important to set up, how portant the first act is. And if you look at some movies back in the in the seventies, like even Exorcist, literally I think the first hour like nothing major paranormal like happens. I mean, the priest doesn't show up up until after the hour mark, like like all this stuff I remember about

the Exorcist doesn't happen until like almost after the midpoint. You know. It's like, yeah, because the even like Rosemary's the Baby, same thing, uh, Gary Shining, Like yeah, exactly, Shining. You're just watching girls and bikes and yeah, yeah, it's just and and there are a little creepy things that happened. There's always got you know, a cat dropped out of the box. Uh. I was watching Alien, same thing. It's just the day to day workings of of space uh, space teamsters.

And then and then midpoint the thing leaps out of the guy's chest and you're it's off, off and running exactly what we've been setting up before. That is nobody listens to Ripley. You know, these guys are are in it for a paycheck. You froze up, do you see me? Good?

Yeah? Okay, sorry? Yeah that that that nobody listens to her, that that you know, these guys are are in it for a paycheck, and that something is wrong with the science officer, you know, and there's all these kind of your you're just setting up the dynamics, uh, and it's getting your heart is kind of in your chest. You know that something's got to happen. Yeah. Uh. And then when it does, it's

just like bam bam, bam bam bam. And then you're left the best thing about looking at the third act versus it it's the thing, it's the thing that you are. You know, the lights go up, you walk to your car and you go, man, that was awesome. And that's the thing. You know, If that third act moment works, then it's all worth it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter what you did up until that point. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,

and now back to the show. Nobody's gonna you know, the the audience coming out of the seven o'clock show. I talk about this all the time because it's what it's what makes movies great. It's what makes the business

of making a movie, even if it's an independent film. It's the audience coming out of the seven o'clock show, their reaction as you're in line for the nine o'clock show, and everybody knows that thing of like people who are going oh, snap, yeah, yeah, and they're like crying or they're like high fiving or stuff, and they're they're nodding at you because they know, like, oh, this is gonna be you know, you are in for a treat. This is gonna be magnificent and uh. And it's that

thing that's what makes movies great. That's what makes movie going great, you know, and everything you know, Yeah, go ahead, now we can say it's fascinating. We were talking about the long setup and then we gave some examples, but you did mention even like the movie up and I think it's one of the greatest examples of the shortest most heartbreaking setups ever. You know, it's within You're in tears within the first whatever five minutes of that

story of Carl. You know, it's beautiful, and they're just it's just building up, you know, remember, they're building up for the moment when he ditches the house to save the boy, you know, and and so and that's the whole you know that John, you know, was who walked into the room. Okay, what happens. He crashes the house, He throws all the stuff out, you know, to give it ballaced. He's run out of balloons, and you know, uh, and he goes and

saves the boy. And uh, that's that's his Luke Skywalker moment, right right. And so so in the beginning, you want to say, well, if the house doesn't mean anything, right again, story math, If the house doesn't mean anything, moment's not going to mean anything. Everybody's going to go so what it's a house, Yeah, you know, get another house, like no, no, no, this house is very special because it is the embodiment of you know, his relationship with his with his wife.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, ely and and I believe it at various times he calls the house Ellie, and it's the he's working towards the picture of the house on the on the mountain. Yeah, and so you're going to give him that, and then you're gonna take it away. You know, he's gonna get all the way there, realize it's it's not worth what he thought it would be worth. And then he's gonna go save the boy.

Great, so you need and I forget who There is a one the co director of of Inside Out, Ronnie del Carman, I want to say, Okay, he I believe that was his sequence and that put him on the map as a star, or you know he's been on the map as a star anyway, because he's fantastic artists. But he was the guy who who walked through that sequence and said it's stripped it of its dialogue. He

had temporary music that was that was wonderful for it. This this kind of very you know, ballad kind of thing, and it was amazing, you know, just a process of how that sequence came. It came to be because you know, obviously the first twenty drafts of that sequence were not that sequence. Yeah, you really had to kind of work on it, work on it work on it, and so it just wasn't it. It would make you cry. And I believe it's five minutes and thirty seconds long.

It is not very long in in in pure movie movie terms, but by the end of it, when you know, just that pan across the doctor's office, oh my god, you know, just every one of those moments

is completely iconic. It's just it's truly wonderful. And then it gives him license to do everything that he does, which is he won't sell the house, smashes the guy on the head when he you know, when he's when he's threatened, and now he's going to you know, go live this dream and go to uh, you know this this waterfall great, is amazing.

I was curiously you with your thanks. We've history of like writing on your own, working in rooms, you know, in television and and now working like obviously the last few years and animation is the advent of visuals, like because I don't know if you have an opportunity with the Princess and the Frog to go down to New Orleans too, or you're part of the research crew because you know, you were mentioning like how Lasseter was such a huge proponent

of research, like just getting as orb into your DNA, like like you've probably already done prior, but I was curious. You know, we have the TV room. We're seeing like this explosion of Golden Age of television, just amazing shows left and right, and I can only count like because the power the writers there, like in writers together pushing each other to make it

great. And then you have animation which allows you to I mean my past working with so many PlayStation work with visual effects, we always had to work

with visuals. We always had something to draw from to try to make it, you know, better, And I'm wondering, like, because now you have visual cues like you mentioned and Princess of the Frog, here's a drawing, a sketch drawing about the fathers, Like that is huge for me, And I was wondering, have you seen I guess, like, how could like an independent you know, borrow from this concept of like should they just

intundate themselves with so many look frames or drawings or initial sketches anything like that to like inundate themselves of what their world would look like. So if they brought in their own makeshift brain trust group, so everybody connect to like oh, what's that? What's this? Or you know, how's this fin the story? I don't know from your any like stories you could share of like just like you said, you're walking around, you're seeing artists or somebody.

Pretty much the film made in like visual format before even like even one written word is put on an actual traditional script. I guess I don't know, right well, that's the that's the fun of the new the new tools, we'll call it is it's I know that Robert Rodriguez his his process is very similar to the Pixar process, which is interesting. He kind of pre shoots his movies and he will just with a handheld camera or I don't know,

a cell phone or whatever. He'll get his actors in a room and he films his rehearsals and he takes them back and I don't know if he's using you know whatever, you know, final problem, whatever it is. But you know, as easy it is as it is to edit something. He just edits it at home and then he goes in the next day if they're shooting the next day, and he'll show it to everybody like this is this is what this is, and here's what I think is wrong with it,

here's what I did to rewrite it, and here we go. You know. So the second thing you see will be that Woody Allen shoots an entire movie, edits it and edits it, shows it, you know, it, takes a look at it, and then I don't know if he gets outside feedback or or anything. I assume he does, and then reshoots the entire movie. It's always in his budget that he will shoot it twice. So you do it, and obviously that you know, the first version is

not just everybody kind of slogging through not wearing their costumes and stuff. It's an actual movie, you know. And then he shoots it again. So and I think that that that is a great way to go if you can't. Ridley Scott storyboards his own movies top to them, and I believe shoots the storyboards and show you know, shows shows those. So that the first draft, and the way I look at it is, you know, from a Disney perspective, is that when guys are drawing, right, they take

a blue pencil. It's very light, you can barely see it, and they just start drawing and whatever, and they're just and the lines are everywhere, and they're it's a complete mess, and they're drawing over themselves and they're doing whatever, and then they start to see it, and then they'll they'll they'll take out a black pencil and they'll start tagging it down and they'll you know, okay, great, here the eyes, here's where the eyes go,

here's whatever, because you're kind of trying to see it on the page, and only a handful of people can just start drawing with a black pencil and go you're sketching, sketching, sketching until you see it. If you if you listen to a band right, the band will go you know, it'll sound terrible the first and then they'll kind of gradually, you know, come down to whatever they're doing. Sculpture is the same way. It's a blob, an amorphous blob for so long, and then they start to tack

down little sections. And writers are the only ones who don't do that. Writers, I'll see them go, oh, I have an idea, you know, faded go in, you know, and here broke the store day, and like, who does that? Nobody does that? You don't think that way. You say, I want to make a movie, I think it should be kind of like this movie that I loved when I was a kid, or it should be. I want to make the best you know, badass six year old whatever magical power movie that I can. Here is

a precedent of other you know, badass six year old. Here's where some have gone right and others have gone wrong. And this is what moves me about this kind of movie. This is why these kinds of movies are my favorite movies. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And this is where others have fallen afield. I think my movie is somewhere in here, and and then you get out

like I'm old school. So I have like I have, you know, just a clipboard and a fountain pen, and I will sit down and I'll just start writing. And it's rarely dialogue. It's just what do I love about these kinds of movies? I love this, I love this, I love that. Hey, my favorite scene in one of these things was blah blah blah blah blah, and and my least favorite scene is blah blah blah

blah blah. Excellent. I like to eat my dessert first, so if I'm writing, I will say, well, here are scenes that should be in my movie. You know, these are great scenes. And if I can just string a clothes line between these scenes, I think I'll be okay,

because these are the classic scenes. There should be the mentor scene and the and so and the equipment, you know, the badass piece of machinery you know, or the you know, the great gun or whatever it is, you know, a cool monster, a you know, fantastic spaceship a you know, always kind of I'll put those in and then I'll say, okay, well, wait now I'm going to try to make myself crying the

third act and go, you know, yeah, and that's yeah. But but it's always starting from like a morphous a morphous you know, the the ink, you know, the paint is wet, there's no paper. I'm just freestyling until I find like it should be this, and then I'll start to give it shape and tack it down, and then only last the last like it's it's. I often will write the entire thing by hand, and then after I've gone through the whole thing, then I type it into software.

Interesting, do you know, is there a difference for you between like, uh, plot in character or is it the same like because I could see like doing an outline constructing like the logic of the world of where you want this moment to go for the protagonists and maybe the protagon, like you see like a major change that's going to have to happen for this character. But once you kind of maybe have like the simple idea laid out, then do you do you go in and start like thinking like, Okay, the

Dad character a lot right now, my early drafts are serving exposition. Well, then how do I make that character more interesting? Because there was this whole I think you were talking about, like in Jason Buff's podcast about how like in Finding Emo, there was all these wonderful characters, all the supporting characters, even no matter how small the character is, Like each fish had some interesting best story, one scar one like was nervous or I don't know

it was this. It was just rich with content because our context, because it was so each character was so unique that way, as opposed of just being serving up exposition. Do you see that within those group meetings you have or or sometimes somebody goes, I have this is the character. I don't know what story was going to happen with them, but I don't know how like did you see it built by ways? Right? Right? No?

That that that it's the interesting thing is and it's it's it's fantastic question because it is I think at the crux of most I'd say a good and ninety percent of filmmakers don't understand this one specific thing, which is that there should be no difference between character and story. But there is a huge difference between

character and plot. Okay, the plot is just I was in this uh it was a masterclass in France, in Marseille, and this there was a guy who'd done this web these webcasts and stuff like that was you know, really charismatic guy, really energetic, you know, great storyteller in quotes, and I'd done this thing and I'll talk about it a little later because it remind me to tell you this thing because I think it helps all writers, everybody that I've done it with, with writers, it makes them a lot

better. But this guy is telling this story and he's going on, he's pitching me this this movie, and he says, oh, and then an alien comes in and bla bla bla blah blah. He's pitching, pitching more and more. The Italian guy right, He was like, yeah, and then this happens, and then and then they fall into an abyss and then a guy has a gun and whatever and he shoots his grandma and whatever. And he's just going through, going through and going through, and I'm watching

the audience and I and I stopped him for a second. I say, watched the audience as you're as you're doing this, keep going, And he's what and then this happened. There was a big explosion and whatever. And I said, I said, what what what do you think I saw? Uh, after about two minutes, everybody started talking to each other. He just tuned him out. There were a couple of his friends in the back that were kind of smiling. Really towards the end, everybody was just everybody

was just hiding from the thing because he was. Because it was it was mostly sorry, I mean to do something to the screens. Have I have flux? And I didn't realize that it's been it's been kind of making the image of more sleepy as we But yeah, so I said, look at the audience, and the audience has just completely tuned him out. I said, why as well. Uh, he couldn't figure it out. I said, well, because you lost your character. First, you didn't make me

care about your character. And second, as it's going on, you were just it's just getting more and more. You were using plot to try to save you from character. And I said, okay, And I pitched his own his story the same way, and I pitched it all character. Yeah, this guy comes in and more than anything else in the world, he

wants this. Oh but you know this guy also wants it and blah blah blah, and he wants it even more so at the very beginning, the guy boom whatever, he takes it from him, and now he's sitting there going, oh, no, what am I gonna do? Now? Aliens attack and blah blah blah and whatever. And everybody's leaning in as I'm as I'm telling the story because you care. You know, you give a crap about the story. Before he was doing plot, what I was doing was

character. And you know, if it's if it's finding Nemo, every character that Marlin passes should develop him as a character. You're going from the journey of a guy who's overly cautious to a guy who's going to let his kid do this thing. In The Incredibles, everything that passes Bob pars. You know, we set him up as a guy who will save everybody at any

time, you know, whatever you're doing. The whole thing, everybody that he passes, every experience that he has, is is basically kind of to show that his addiction has gotten out of control, you know, and until he even finds an enabler in the nail. Oh great, Actually, I'm gonna go off and do this thing, and I'm just going to completely ignore my family, right because those are the two values that are at stake.

It's it's do you are you going to reclaim your your your glory at the expense of the thing that you that that you know, your future, you know your family. You were once this guy, now you're this guy. You need to be more than mister incredible, she says pointedly, you know, thematically in order to do it. So every single scene is going to

be him deperately clinging to his former life. He's in the meeting with his boss and he's looking out side and he can't can you know, And he's just seeing a guy getting his pocket picked and he can't give it up. You know. He's he's there with the old lady, and the old lady is worried that she's going to lose her thing, and he can't you know that that his his new life. He just won't do it. Everything, everything he's doing is kind of these things butter butterressing it but against each other.

That's the nature of storytelling. That is character. You're developing that character to the point where the character has to make this decision of like, you know, I can either go and try to save the you know, save the city by myself, which I know I cannot do, or I can trust my family to help me. I can do this as a family, and off you go. Yeah, you know that. That's that that in that way, as you're telling the story, it's very clear what's muscle and

what's bone. You know that that or what's wheat and what's chap right that that any scene that doesn't have him moving towards either on the upside where he's he is completely like, yes, regaining your former glory is the most awesome thing in the world you can do. That's the bill to the midpoint, and he's and then at the midpoint, ha ha, I've killed all these people and now I'm going to kill you, and he can't get out of

and whatever. Now I can't get out of the room, and he's you know those those little yeah whatever wind whatever, and now, oh no, this is where it's gotten you to the you know, to the terrible, terrible midpoint. And then it's the family is going to go rescue him, right, So now you're on the downslope, and so everything that happened from that point on is look how cool this family is when the family is unrestrained. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back

to the show. Yeah, until you get to this point where it's he's bemoaning the fact that, you know, it's almost a false act too. Right, the rocket is headed towards the city and Bob is sitting there saying, oh, I can't believe what I've done, you know, do guys this is really terrible. And his daughter he says, yeah, yeah, blah blah blah, daddy, you know whatever, And she saved them ball very easily because he's not thinking about family. He's thinking about himself. Right.

So we're driving, driving, driving for that moment, and that's all character. You know, every scene in that is a scene that you absolutely need and none of it is, but none of it should feel like plot. Yeah, it is all to drive the guy towards making that decision.

It's really interesting because we started our conversation about talking about mastermind groups or accountability groups, and like how it's so much easier to look at somebody else's problem or look at what they stand for because we can see from an outside perspective what's in front of them. But we as individuals are so wrapped up in our own stuff. We can't, like you mentioned, we can't see our

own get out of our own way. It's all. And we were talking about there's so much things that we have to unlearn to be able to be and then we're here we are talking you know, character and story and all these characters or especially with the Pixar stories we were talking about, and and you know the stories we were mentioning. There's there's this aspect of baggage or

that there's these known beliefs that they hold on too for so long. But that third act moment, that John Laster moment he's talking about, has to be this let go of all that in order to have that transformation at the

end. But it's funny because we were talking, we started talking about it in real life and we're seeing it happen in story's It's like, oh wow, that's that's fascinating and and and really that's why I think, that is why I like to look at well screenwriting everybody, you know, it's the technology of screenwriting. But really we're storytellers, right, guys in rocking chairs,

you know, saying hey, is this is what's important. And that's why is because we always we make the same mistakes, you know, all the time, as human animals, as machines, whatever that we are, that we we make the same mistakes all the time, and so we tell ourselves these stories like let go you know of that and embrace the new. One of the things I'll say, like in masterclasses all the time is you can learn how to speak French without learning, without forgetting how to speak English.

You know, you can accept a new philosophy, a new way of thinking. Just try it out and then if you want, you can go back to what it is is you do. But a lot of people will say like, well, in a minute, I don't like, you know, I'm not such a big fan of Disney movies, and you guys are you know you guys, it's all a factory and blah blah blah, and I'm not going to make movies like that. I'm like, okay, well, let me see what it is you've done. Yeah, it's morphus horrendous

kind of what and like, what are you doing? You haven't you've so resisted all of the kind of rules, and not just necessarily like the Disney rules or the Pixar rules, but just the rules of general storytelling. You know, like of that fifty characters, fifty main characters is not a good way to go. You know that that a film without conflict is not is probably not going to work all that well. Right, A film that is about something that nobody in the world cares about is not going to be uh

is not going to be enjoyable. There are but a film, a terribly constructed film about something I really care about, and a you know, a person who is who is wonderful, who I want to see more of, And you know that that film is going to go through the roots. You know it's gonna be be I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm gonna and people are gonna say, like, what was that that you were you kept talking about.

You know, I'm gonna go on social media. It's like, okay, look, I'm gonna go on on the limb and just say that this movie was the best movie you know, that I've ever seen. And that's especially from the indiast side. That's what you really likes. Goes in, breaks into a house, eats porridge, sits in a chair, eats all the porridge, sits in a chair, breaks it, and then sleeps in a person's bad So it is an active crime going on. And then three

people return. Three characters return and and one is eating, one, one is eating, one discovers something is wrong, one sits down, one sits down, one is oh my god, whatever, and then they go pursue it. So the baby bear is the is the protagonist of the story. Now go tell the story, but tell the story in you know, what are you going to do with the story now you know now you have your own edge to it. Are you going to tell a story about a boy

who really wants to go to sleep? Are you going to tell a story who's about a kid who's really hungry? Are you going to tell a story about a kid with anger issues who is trying to hold it down whatever that angle is. You know you have you now have the form war, you know the format, and you can go and tell tell that and then get good at that, get good at telling that story of doing your cover of Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Then once you're feeling that, now go start

pitching your own stuff, you know, get that. And the way I look at it is, you know, you've just seen you just saw Star Wars. You know you just saw you know, the jj Abrams Star Wars, and as you were leaving the building, it burned down. There was an oil fire. The whole thing burned down, you know, all the friends, everything, And now everybody turns to you and said, oh, what was it? You know what happened? Yeah. A lot of people when they pitched, they'll go, okay, well there's a ship and bigger

ship. This kid comes in and he's take out garbage, and then it's this kind of hipstory. Who was really mean? There's a soccer ball but you know it does whatever, and it's like, no, you know, how do you tell that story? You are the last lifeline of this of the greatest movie ever made. How do you tell it and have that behind you, but with a story that you already know. Get comfortable with that

if it's it's your tape recorders, whatever, and then go. Then you have that set of skills and you're not pitching garbage, and you also are learning from those reps. This pitch as well. This does not pitch well. You know, this is the essence of storytelling most of the time. And I mentioned it before, most of the time. Like right now, I'm doing a you know, this superhero thing, and I watched everything.

It's everything, and I rewatched everything from the point of view of me making this new movie, and I'm taking notes on it, like, oh great. You know, they spend a good iron Man spends a good long time in the middle of the movie just becoming Iron Man. Yeah, Man spends

a good long time in the middle of that movie. And in both you know, first versions, you know when when Uncle Ben dies, spends a lot of time on the suit and the web and the thing, you know, the mechanics of becoming Spider Man. That's a big part of our enjoyment. They don't just put on the suit and oh here I go. It's

it's a big part of the journey. So great I have to have that in mine, you know, and just kind of going through it, understanding it, and then when I pitch it, I'm pitching it like a Star Wars. I just had this meeting a day or two ago, you know, and I'll get up, I'll warn around the room, you know, I'm shooting stuff down whatever. You know. I have this, this this total enjoyment because I love these movies. You know, I want first I want them to make my movie. But second, I can't wait to see

my movie, you know. I can't wait to be in the line, you know for the nine o'clock show when the seven o'clock comes, you know, comes out. So I love that. So that's my little soapbucket. I'm glad I said it in the other one and and I'm hopefully, like I said, I hope it's valuable to your Actually it's extremely valuable because I had, you know, with my podcast, I have just people will email me, you know occasionally, and just they's just asking advice or opinions.

And I made a point to a young filmmaker, I said, if you kind of want to test yourself as a filmmaker, whether or not you're a good director or not make a short film based off of some very famous short story that's in public domain, something that has proven like that exists, like an Edgar Allan Poe story. That's something that's like, Okay, this exists. This is a historically well known story that has all the elements in there

that make it successful. So if you can one write it, adapt adaptation of it, and then two, if you're a director, you can test your directing chops that way because it's all the elements are there. You know, the stories solid, you know it's a you know, short enough that you can make it within your means, and then if it falls flat, then you can go back and figure out why it fell flat, because it then it puts you because you can't blame anything like I can't blame the story

didn't work or the screenwriter didn't write it right or something like that. It's will be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. I mean there's all these elements there of like you really really want to test yourself as a director, that's a good thing. And look at the look at this exc you know, out of Sundance right there. The Birth of a Nation's sold for fourteen seventeen four, right, and that's

that was a take on they already established movie. You know, it's his riff on this movie that you can't wait to see because it's definitely a long overdue take on that movie. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Yeah, and it should it should be fun and and that enhances the viewing of the movie. And I think too. Yeah, with a lot of short films that I see, I'll always say, like, what short films did you watch

to inspire you to do this? Because most of the short films I've seen, especially the you know, the good one, you know, the Pixar ones and also the really good live action ones, are very very simple. One one person or two, you know, in a relationship, and then that slowly evolves over time. There was a you're talking about riffs on some

There was this YouTube thing that happened that I thought was great. Was the Power Rangers thing with I don't know if you saw that the fan film or which one, Yeah, the fan film, the Power Rangers fan film. I guess they had to take it down, but it was fantastic. It was like I'd never you know, this guy's take on Power Rangers. You know, the wink is of course it's Power Rangers, but it's like the yeah, you know they're Dams vander Being and stuff like, oh, this

is this is seriously enjoyable. This guy can I can't wait to watch this guy make a movie. You know, the Deadpool trailer, you know, the little sizzle off of that. You know, that's the first time director and now of course the biggest highest grossing I take my for a time director.

It was you know, it is something that we've seen before, you know, you know, it's it's a thing, and the way he did it was just fantastic, you know, and obviously like because the other thing that I would put to that is the short story that you adapt should be one that you absolutely love, and the way that you do it should be you should be showing everything that you do great. You know. If you are a great cinematographer, it should be a beautiful movie. If you are

great with character, it should be or whatever. If you're funny, you know, don't try to wake funny if you're not funny way by all means, because one bad joke will kill you, you know, as far as the enjoyment of it. But yeah, if you can work. If your best friend is a fantastic actor, you know, go do you know, get on him, you know, call it every favor. You know, hey, I give the speech at your wedding, you know, show up for four an hour and a half and and help me. Help me in

my movie. Robert Rodriguez will talk about that, like, don't anything that you know, I have a friend that has a bar. I have another friend that owns a bus. You know, great, there's going to be a bus chase and part of this is going to take place in my friend's bar. Awesome. Then you know, production value goes through the roof and you're on the map as a as a serious filmmaker. Yeah, and definitely,

like all those processes helps. The idea is to kind of keep yourself in check, to keep humbled, so that, like you said, if you're to put yourself out there as a writer, as a filmmaker, as a storyteller, to utilize a brain trust kind of concept, you have to be willing to accept, like to to to let go of what you've created and know that it's not yours anymore. I think Laster talked about that. He said that when they created Buzzing Woody, there was a point where they

realize it's no longer theirs. It's like now they have a responsibility to serve those characters honestly and and truthfully to the audience, you know. And I think that's a very very important because you have to you have to listen that people don't just give notes just for the sake of giving notes. Yeah, they're addressing, they're addressing a problem. Sometimes a problem took place pages before what they're addressing. You know, sometimes the wheels were off the wagon way

before. You know, this particular scene that that drove everybody nuts. You know, it was a setup. It was the amp up to it. And uh, and you have to be open to that. I was giving notes to a writer. He sent me something and said, oh, I just want to hear your input. Okay, I'm gonna be tough. Oh yeah, that's okay. And I gave him the notes and it was and you know, me like I like to talk, but it was it was I would say, four fifths him defending the thing that he had done and

only one fifth of me giving the note. And I was like, look, we're not going to get anywhere with this because I'm not just giving you notes because I want you to talk me out of it. You know, I know your intent is on the piece of paper. If it is not clear, you know, you've got to work with it. You know, it's not just you know, I will give this note, but probably you know, everyone that you give it to will probably give these same notes.

And if they don't, they're not doing you any favors. But that but part of the process when you're a when you're an artist, it hurts to get notes. It physically hurts you. You know, it's like somebody is roughing up your baby and you just have to. I think it was David, the guy who created Family Ties. He said, you just write down

the note. That's all you need to do. Understand it, write it down, then, you know, conclude the conversation, punched the pillows or whatever, you know, bry in the shower, and then and then go and look at the notes and say, Okay, what did I This will ultimately make it better something you'll just cross off and say, I don't care. I'll get this note nine times out of ten. Most of the time it's like, you know what, I didn't sell it. I just there's

something you know, my intention was to do this. I didn't. That's what threw him off and this But of course you have to start off with the intention, right, You have to start off with a strong motivated character. It has to be very clear what it is the story that you're telling. People get bored with plot. They are excited with story with you know, with the drive and the conflict. You know, even Aristotle talked about,

you know, intention, obstacle anything was. I was watching Don't Nabby right because the last episode was on, and I'm oh, just in tear a kid from Black Kid from Detroit, you know, main demo. But but it made me go back to the first episode and watch that. So I'm watching that in the first three episode and and it's all there, you

know. And and Julian Fellows in an interview, he says, well, I was watching West Wing and I saw that how Aaron Sorkin crafted the characters in the pilot of West Wing, and I took that as my template. And then that's what I did in Downtown Abbey. Interesting now you would think those two shows are completely completely different. But a structuralist, a writer who

knows craft and loved crafts, it's the same thing. So the flirtation between the you know, Carson and you know this is that's that's there, and the little dynamics and just the sisters, all of that's there, and uh, you know, progress is coming. I mean the opening event is is the Titanic, you know, goes down and kills dozens who were set to inherit the estate. And now it's you know this this this other guy so like cheers, right, this person is coming in, you know, he's

lost the waitress, this new person comes in. You know, it's it clocks along. But it's all story. You know, it's all story. You're you're driving towards this thing that the world is changing, and the you know, the the head butler and in the lord of the estate are saying, oh my god, I don't know what's you know, what are we going to do? And that's the tension in every episode. That's great. This is great storyteller, right, and and those are the tools that has

nothing to do with the software. Yeah, yeah, exactly nothing. You know, I don't care what method. You know, what if he's a movie magic, if Julian Fellows is reading writing it with a quill, you know it is it is it is great storytelling, and and that's what's gonna that's what it's gonna save you. You could film that thing, you know, with a cardboard box, and it will be compelling television. Yeah. Yeah, you know you mentioned some things like clear is it is? You

know, when you're giving notes or feedback or accepting that. I don't remember where I heard this before, but I wanted to implement because somebody had asked me, like just advice, like me to give advice like when you're giving like when somebody read your script. I said, well, one thing you can do to get constructive feedback. I don't I really don't know where I heard this before, but I thought it was great. Was simply, Uh was simply when you read the script, can you read my story? Can

you tell me one? Is it clear? Two? If it is clear, is it interesting? We'll be right back after a from our sponsor and now back to the show. The exactly that way. That way, you're not there's no there's no like you can't be defensive about it. It's just like, well I read it, I wasn't sure about what happened here or why the character did this. He goes, well, it is clear, but it felt like stuff I've seen before. You know that way, it's

not a personal attack on you. Like, okay, so that I can work on that note and that you can kind of police yourself on right, Yeah, that that you. I was working with Dan Fogelman, who who had written Cars and You Would Love, and we were working on a draft,

yeah, a movie for Disney Live Action Animation Hybrid. And one of the things that he said to me, which was great, he says, on every page, assume that the person reading it might be on a treadmill, and and that that person, you know, you have to make the intention very clear, the obstacle very clear. Tell the story that you're going to tell. Clarity, clarity, clarity, because you don't want the note. That's one note that you can easily take off the table. It wasn't

clear. I like one of one of the things that I love. I'm I'm a writer who likes a study writing. I like, I'll listen to anybody who's talking about how they're how they you know, every everybody's lecture is

everybody's series. I love that stuff. And one thing was this guy, the guy who wrote four Weddings in a Funeral, whose name is Escape, but he had also written Love Actually, and before that he wrote this great series called Blackadder, and he was, you know, Royan Atkinson's like kind of main guy, and and one thing that he said is, you know,

don't be afraid of writing on the note. And he says one of the most famous lines, and I think it's love actually, as he says he's sitting there, he's riding around it, around it, around it, and he says, I'm just gonna say what it is it's happening, and he wrote the line I'm just a woman talking to a man, just a girl talking to a boy. No, that's I think. I was actually nodding Hill right with Julie Robins exactly. Yes, oh guy, you're right.

Don't be afraid to ride in the nose. That's such a great like simple a vice, like yeah, then if it's then if if people don't like it, then find then that's a that's a whole separate conversation. But they won't go what what's going on? You know this stage it was like they're kind of talking around something. I don't really get it whatever, and then it just lost me, like no, you know that that what is

it? Like, you know, Darth Vader states his intentions pretty much that you know, yeah lines, you know, he's like, you know, I will you know he states isn't tentions. That's why that's one of those things that you know you can dance around, but you really have to hit at some point or another. Is you know what what Pixar would call the I want song. You know that that nobody does. Everybody sings and I want song in some way or another and go, I like that sing that

one song. You know, I can't I talk to you for There's so much I would love to having. I would love to have another opportunity to have you come back on too. We could talk more. You know, you're working with Aaron's workin and just other writing. You have your master's classes coming up. I definitely make sure you have. Everybody has the links and promote. You know, Rob Edwards dot Net. I know you're you're starting. That's the community. Yeah, you can also find me a at I

am Rob Edwards on Twitter. Okay, great, yeah that's that's new. Oh that's brand new. Perfect. I was terrified of what I would do on Twitter and finally I said, okay, just put it away at three am. Yeah, don't don't. I try not to twitter too much, but but I most uh, anything that happens that of interest will be on there. Oh fantastic, Okay, yeah, all the blog posts, all that stuff will be well, you know as we wrap you know, wrap

all this stuff up. I can't thank you enough for taking a time, your generosity to share with me your knowledge, your experience, and this aspect of the brain Trust, or of any sort of communal like writing group that has affected this. Like that was really important to me because I'm trying to

show to my audience like I want to apply this stuff. So like literally, I think the next episode I'll be doing for my podcast is a video hang out with some people I bring together to illustrate like here it is, you know, a brain trust, my own version of a brain trust group put together on on the on the script that I'm then we're I don't know, yeah exactly with those improvms. You know, yeah, the rules established, the rules. You're clearly you know, hit the bigger problems. First.

It's a yes and you know what if and and yes and yeah and and piling on and you know, best idea, you know, no bad ideas. Just build build build, right, Yeah, that's that's awesome. I think it's something so the people to see it, like, oh, I see how that's working, and maybe they can stop before they settle on their story, like they can push themselves. And it's really just it's a

call. It's a cry out, a call to the rest of the independent filmmakers out there, like just because you can make it, just don't make it just yet, you know, like use use the right tools, you know, don't you like I always say, I want to say, you're using the wrong tools. You know. Just stay stay, stay with you know three about you know, index cards and post it notes and and stuff,

and work the story. Don't lock it down so so early. It's like you don't lack a painting after the first jroke and and use use other people. It's a told we tell stories, you know. A big part of a Princess in the Frog we were we were pitching that thing all the time. You know. I love him to pitch. I will pitch people say hey, what are you working on? I will you know, I'll just take over the party. Oh, let me tell you this. It's upon a time because I want to see if people are gonna if people's eyes

are gonna glaze over. Yeah, if people's eyes are gonna glaze over, I want to see him glaze over. If people are if people are leaning in, if people laugh at something. Then the next time I tell that thing, I'm gonna tell it's gonna be twice long, you know, till that thing, you know, through a colosseum. Uh, and I'm gonna avoid you know, just like the plague, the part where people's eyes glazed over, and I could probably tell why their eyes eyes glazed over. Yeah,

it's that second question. It's yeah, it was clear but not interesting. Okay, Yeah, this is amazing. That's something. Yeah, so so awesome. So yeah, no, no, yeah, please let me know when that happens. I can't wait to Yeah, I I put it together. Actually, it's funny because I wrote a book as an experiment. I was telling my audience and the podcasts like, hey, if you know, filmmakers are just we're making digital products. And a lot of authors for

the longest time have been writing digital products for Amazon. You know, you're just selling a digital product. So what are the mechanisms of like writing, creating something digitally and then selling it. What are the marketing mechanisms of selling? So I said, I'll write a book and put myself as a guinea pick. So I did that last year and put it on Amazon, and

I've been selling it and I'm seeing what works and what doesn't work. But part part of that process of writing a book, I I also record an audio recording version of an audiobook of it. And I was like, wait a minute, this is I've seen this happen because I know The Blacklist has a podcast, and so I did an early version of my script by recording it as an audio basically play. I was reading, like it's like an audio table read, but it's you know, you can listen to it.

So the next I'm rewriting, doing the rewrites, and I'm going to I'll record it. And that's sort of my way of like inviting my guests on who will be part of this makeshift mass I'm sorry. Brain Trust group is like you can either read the script or you can listen to it all the bells and whistles with the actors I put in place, and the audio cues and the music, so you can have like an audio experience of it.

And then that way it's easier for them. Like you said, they're on a treadmill, they're in traffic, and they can listen to the story. And then that way, when they come to the table, they can tell me like what worked or what wasn't clear or what was it and then we can take the brain trust meeting to the next level, because hopefully I have to do something to create that visual experience or an emotional experience that's just not

just the written word. At least that's my intentions, right exactly. And starting yeah, starting with yourself. What I love about that is that you started with yourself as an audience. You know, what is the book I most want to read? And then you know and then and you started there so so you know what it what it needs to be. You also did that, you know, kind of what I love that Tim Ferriss thing of,

like I'm a I'm a guinea pig. Yes, I'm just going to throw myself into this and see what happens, which I think is a good life experience. Like get used to getting bruised. You know, I say it all the time. Embrace the suck. You know it all sucks. You're always going to hear somebody going like, oh, that's stupid, and you have to just say I know it's stupid now, but you know in a couple of months it won't be. Yeah, we'll be right back after

a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. If you tell if if I get the right you know, if I get the right stuff, so so yeah, so so put yourself. You know, putting yourself in the in the mouth of the lion is a great idea. Yeah, that's that's that's gonna be a lot of fun. And you will you will probably learn volumes from it because you'll have that that delicious like you says

flop set kind of thing. Yeah, like oh no, this is embarrassing, and then you know, you always pull yourself out of the ashes. Everybody does. Very very cool. Thank Rob, Thank you, thank you so much. I can't thank you enough. Really, thank you for having me. I want to thank Scott so much for doing such a great job with this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV

Ford Slash three thirty. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasted Bulletproove Screenwriting dot tv. H