You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three twenty four. When given an opportunity, deliver excellence and never quit. Robert Rodriguez broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in
Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tent pole movies when your movie is going to be done for
one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, wm E, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to cover my Screenplay dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis. Hey, Tom, thanks all for coming on the show. I'm really happy to be here, Dave, thanks
for having me. Oh, you know, my pleasure. Tom. You know, you're a person I've been I've been mean to have on the podcast for a while. You know, I really admire you know, your work and the work that you and Scott do for Screenwriting Masterclass, and you know, it's good that we could actually, you know, have this conversation now. Oh it's great. I'm glad you've been enjoying classes and it's been good to have you in with us in our in our classes. Oh yeah,
I've been enjoying the classes a lot. And you know there's a question I usually uh asked most people, Uh, you know when when we start off, is I want to ask Tom you know, how did you get started, you know, in the film industry. How I get started? Well, I I we fell in love with movies when I was a kid. And we had a neighbor who was a filmmaker, Burt Ballot Band, and we were on the set of his movies a couple of times. And I just love to go to the movies. I have this weird you know.
There were these movie theaters in our town and I would go and see The West. We'd go to see the you know, when I was a little kid, the the you know, twenty cartoons, Matt and Ay in the afternoon and then an abern Castella movie. And my mom my parents really liked movies. My mom really liked movies. So like the first movie I saw in a theater was Bridge over the River Kwai, and she took us to New York and so that in a theater when I was a little kid.
So I was just I really I just always really loved movies and I would just go. I wouldn't go by myself when I was a kid, but I read this one memory of I really wanted to go see this this Western that was playing, and my friend Larry didn't want to go. So I actually said, okay, I'll buy your ticket, So I like paid for
him to go, just so we would do that in that afternoon. I think the movie was She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, you know, And I have no idea what you know how that whatever promotion for that movie made me want to see it. But yeah, so I just really liked movies, and then when I was in college, I started making films and I just you know, decided that's what I wanted to do. And at that time, there was sort of the the the the seventies and the eighties was a
great time for movies. There's a lot of excitement and there are a lot of film students who were breaking into film. And I did my junior abroad in Paris and went to film school and made a film. It was actually in French, was my student film. And I then came out to California when I finished school with my French student film under my arm and a spec script that I'd written and tried to make my way and you know, sell
the script and get work and that was a process. But then, you know, I worked at you I did like different kinds of jobs and this guy hired me to write and direct an educational film which was like it was a story film. It was sort of a red balloon kind of film. And I made that film and it won an award and a festival, which kind of gave me a little bit of hope. And I kept writing scripts along the way, and then I got an agent and had some jobs and
you know, nothing to nothing that really panned out into anything. They were fun and interesting jobs that I had. I optioned to script to a guy, to actually Rick Rosenthal, who became a director and TV director and still very active out here as a company called Whitewater, and so I opted to script to him. And then I wrote a script that uh got got some interest from Bob Zemeckis through my brother was was a lawyer and he was working with Larry Caston and Zamex was a friend of his, and I wrote the
script. My brother liked the script and he gave it to those guys. He gave it to Caston and kast and gave it to Zemeckis and Szemeckis really loved the script and he wanted to make the movie. So you know, that was that was my first taste of anything, which really was going to be you know, breaking into the you know, so scaling the walls of the studios, so to speak. And that project ended up nothing ended up
happening with it. You know, we because Bob Zamechas I thought, you know, I was like this, he had done used cars and I want to hold your hand. He was spiel He and Bob Gail were Spielberg sort of protegees of the time, and then Spielberg directed their script nineteen forty one, which was a huge flop at the time. You know, it was just like a big you know, it was like Spielberg's first movie that he'd
made that hadn't worked. So when Zemeckis got interested in my script, it was like the tail end of his that first wave of what he you know, had going in the business. So it wasn't the greatest of times for him, but you know, he loved my script and he wanted to do it, and he you know, we took it to all these places and nothing happened with it. So I, you know, I was kind of charged by that. You know, I felt like, wow, you know, it was like more than it ever happened to me. And I was
exciting and it was it was a fun thing. And I, you know, we were still I was still kicking that script around and trying to do things with it and working on another script. And then about six months later, the phone rang and it was Meckis and he said, I, ay, time, I have this project at Fox and they I need a writer to develop it with me. Would you be interested? And yeah, yeah,
of course I was interested. So that was Cocoon. It was this unpublished novel and there was the producers with these Megat producers Richards, Richard Zaneck and David Brown. You know, they'd done Jaws and Staying and all these things. They had this big deal at Fox. So he had that deal with developing that project with him, and they're a writer had done an adaptation. It was an unpublished novel and the Sky had done an adaptation of it
and it wasn't it wasn't really no one was very happy with it. And so they gave me the material and said, well, you know what, what can you do something with it? So I, you know, figured out a pitch and I had to go in and you know, I pitched it to Bob, tried to figure out something that like would sort of work
with his sensibility in terms of what the material was. And I kind of reinvented what they had before and reinvented the novel and novel the novel in a lot of ways, and used the story and just change a lot of elements, characters and things to it and kept some you know, the basic sci fi story that was there. I stuck with that, and you know, it's about the you know, the story is exactly what the movie is,
but you know, many adjustments later, I think. And so, yeah, I pitched that at to Zanick and Brown and Lily Zannick, Richard Zack's wife, and yeah, they they bought, you know, they they hired me to write that script. And so that was my first that and that you know, I meanazingly, there was all this drama. You know, the studio Zemeckis then went off to do Romancing the Stone and they ended up having a lot of problems with the studio with Romancing the Stone. In our
movie, kakoon I wrote the script and it got greenlit. You know, it's like they wanted to make that movie with Zemeckis, but then he was off making this other movie for Fox and they were having all this he was really tangling with some people, with Michael Douglas and other people the studio about that project in some ways. So it ended up they ended up not wanting him to direct Kakoon. So we had this movie that was greenlit and we
didn't have a director. And then some I then suggested Ron Howard because of Splash, and miraculously, Ron Howard had read the script before and we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show and was interested in the project, and you know, the producers convinced him to do it, and so you know, that's and that was my you know, my big way if that was my way in that was my first riders skilled job, and that was my you know, first movie that got made.
And so so way after that time, did did you get a lot of like people wanting to work with you and like a lot of directors wanted wanting to sit down with you to talk about their projects. Yeah, I mean that was like, yeah, it was pretty you know, it's like such yeah, I was. I mean, you know, because well once the movie got going, I started getting you know, some work started coming my way. You know with other other producers wanted to work with me because
the movie was you know, in development. I was sort of like you know, in the game a little bit, so to speak. And then when the movie came out and it turned out to be a hit, and you know, and it was it was it was well liked by people in the in the by the people in the business. It was just you know, people really really really were very kind about the movie, and so yeah, I just started getting you know, and the business was so different than
the studio system. You know, the student like Cahoon would not get made. Now. I mean, it might get made somehow. Someone would struggle and fight and get a made. But you know, it was like a twenty million dollars at that time, a twenty million dollar movie, which is a very low budget studio movie, about as low as you could do at
a studio at that time, I think, and with no stars. You know, Steve Gutenberg wasn't really you know, he was a star, but he wasn't you know, like a movie He wasn't a you know, he wasn't a guy who was known to just you know, put to get movies. Any movie couldn't put you put together with him and at that time. So yeah, so that was you know then you know, the people just started throwing me every kind of job you can imagine. You know, it was just like, yeah, things changed, so I got I just got
a lot of work after that. Definitely definitely a lot of you know, things going on that way. And you touched on something to Tom that I that I wanted to talk about, which was you mentioned you know that movie wouldn't get made today, and you know, I think you're right because I you know, everything now is either like a low budget you know, one to five million dollar movie or it's a huge superhero movie, and you know that that's something now where I wonder, you know, where where is that
middle ground that that used to be? You know what I mean? And so you know where I wanted to ask you is is excuse me I wanted to ask you is is you know, what would you do if you were a screenwriter starting off right now? You know, what would you do you know, to sort of you know, get your foot in the door again, knowing the marketplaces where it is right now? I would just write.
I would write a great script and whatever whatever you are interested that writer's feels they have in their heart that they can embrace and really feel committed to emotionally and and spiritually and physically and just like you know, on every level. And just write a great script. And if you write a great script, then you have a writing sample. And you know, in terms of the practicalities of what can get made, yeah, you know, it's it's better
to write something that's can be made for a price. And even if the marketplace doesn't allow for that kind of thing as much. If you want to be in the feature game, you have to write a feature film. And you know so, and it may be that writing and enclo a something doing you know, mixing it up, writing something, writing something that's you know, an enclosed thriller or something that's extremely low budget that you know can be
really made cheaply, and yet is a genre film. I think that's something that the studios are interested in. It's you know, I think that if you if you embrace a genre, you you if you want to work for the studios, if you want to work in that context, you kind of have to look at the movies that they're making and embrace that kind of movie and do something which demonstrates that you are can do that better than anybody else that they're going to have, So you know that they're my agent, as
all these writers working for Marvel, you know, I mean, so you know, so there there are these there are people who are specialists in that and that's that's that they've dedicated themselves to that. They love that and that's what they do and that's the kind of work that they're getting. And they
may have come at it from somewhere else. They may have written something that was a more specific sci fi or very you know, heightened kind of action film that got them there, but something that really corresponds to what that realm is and the kind of kind of scenes and the kind of character development kind of stories that are in that genre, and you know they are like there are other kinds of genres that you know, there's the horror genre, and
you know, there's there's a few you know, there's action thrillers that you know, one character action thrillers, which is probably you know, the most you know, a simpler version of you know, a less expensive kind of movie that the studios can make where they can make it with one star and if it's you know, if it's a compelling story, original it can be you know, I think it's going to be the next Taken or something like
that. So that's that's the way in. And it's much more limited, you know, I mean the when I you know, there used to be development executives. There used to be a point of pride that a development executive would have two projects that were that they loved but were very difficult to get off the ground or sort of impossible, but they loved them, so they had you know that those people aren't that's not something that is part of the part of the mix right now. And the people who are left as the
development executives are you know there it's business. You know, it's just very you know, it's paired down to the being specific to what the necessities of international distribution are and that's you know, that's the studios. And then there's
television. You know, I think that television is kind of that picked up the slack and all these people are moving into television and the television is just taking a lot of different forms and six episode series or ten episodes here you know, cable shows or ten episodes and for a season and that's it. And then there are you know, Netflix does these small films. Now,
there's Telulu. Telula just came out on Netflix. There's a good little film with with Ellen Page and Alison Janny which is like Juno It's but it's straight up there on on Netflix. And bos Loreman's doing the get Down on on Netflix. Really interesting show. So television is really and what we're saying about in television, there's you know, limited series are are significant, and series that have few episodes are significant. So something that could be a feature film
could also be put into one of those contexts. But you know, and also making making your own film, making an independent film. We're just trying to do something that's really small that goes to the independent market and there's not a lot of money in that. But if your heart is isn't an idea in a project, you kind of have to You kind of have to do it and try and find a way, and people find a way, things rise up. You know, everybody's hoping that this year that at the festivals
and wherever, that some great stuff is going to rise up. So if people keep making movies and keep writing scripts and then good things will happen. Yeah, you know, you made another good point. Tom which is about TV. You know, that's where a lot of good writers now that even you know that I even know personally, are all aiming for TV now rather
than feature films. And I think part of the reason is is because of the budget issue, where you know, you want to make a feature film, you know, and they'll look at it and they go, well, you know, maybe this would be better as episodic because that's you know, everyone has been you know, conditioned to to binge watch it or you know what I mean. And they're and we're in the golden age of TV.
There's so many good TV shows on, you know, out there, and you know, I think, you know, even some of the producers and maybe would have made those movies, those feature films even a few years ago, have maybe too much on their plate or they just aren't making those types of movies anymore. Yeah, I think you have a lot. I mean, they're not there. It's hard for the producers. The producers are reluctant to develop a lot of things because it's really hard to set them up.
It's just they don't, you know, the studios aren't giving the producers budgets for development, and they're just not buying. It's not a it's a it's
it's there. They only buy they buy scripts when they're going to go into production a lot of the time now apparently, So yeah, it's TV is really picking up the slack and uh, you know, and I think that it's it's this breakdown which is occurring and the but I think that, you know things, eventually, the theatrical theatrical film is not going to go away. It's that form is important and people don't just want to watch series.
People don't always want to just get hooked into something that's going to take them ten hours to watch. They want to sit down with a group of people or buy themselves and watch something that's two hours. And that's that form is
primal to film entertainment. So it's not going anywhere. It's just right now we're in kind of a it's in kind of a down swing in terms of the certain sectors of the kinds of films that are getting made, and it's it's probably gonna it's probably gonna change, and it may not be that the movie theaters are going to be as important as they were, but I think that there's still there's always going to be room for a good movie, for a good script and a good movie. We'll be right back after a word
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. It's just but I think that in practical terms, having a TV script is something where people feel
like they can do something with it. There's there's all these channels, there's all these outlets that are all looking for stuff, so you know, and there you know, if you take the difference between the way that Warner Brothers is trying to find material for movies Warner Brothers films, versus the way that AMC AMC channel is looking for projects, I would guess that AMC is is a lot more you know, fun place to go to if you really want
to sell something these days. Yeah, you know, because AMC, you know, with The Walking Dead and they also Breaking Bad and uh you know, and you know, I like you said that a lot of people are taking more chances because you know, I heard a rumor that Voodoo, which is owned by Walmart, is going to start making their own original content. Goes everyone wants to get into that game of creating their own original you know, movies and TV shows. Yeah, I mean, someone this idea of
the content bubble is uh. You know they said two years ago somebody said that there was a content bubble and it was going to go all you know, there are too many shows and all this, Well the bubble hasn't gone away, and you know, I was the truth is that a show that a cable show that is doing really well the number of people who are actually watching it, it would be canceled. It would have been canceled fifteen years ago if it were in a network show. So it doesn't have to do
that much business. It's like this. It's kind of this large scale version of the long tail where people, you know, where there are so many niches now and if you if you fit into a niche and you write something of quality to create a show of quality that really that people who are in passionate about that and beyond you know, respond to, then you know it's it's gonna it's gonna work. So you have all these channels and they're all
they're all looking for stuff. They're all looking for ways to survive or make themselves more prominent than they are. And so you know, you so there are all these channels you never heard of, are all sort of have one eye on doing some you know, some kind of TV series or some kind of filmed entertainment show that's not just what their standard mix might be. So
yeah, so there's you know, there's a lot going on. There's also you know, things that are just on the web, just web series, and you know, there are these verticals which are groups groupings together, group grouped together, web shows that are you know, just a bunch of web channels that are that are that are part of one organization. And there's just
gonna be more that's just starting. And now it's you know, people you know treat it like, oh, you know, some people love YouTube and some people feel like they don't relate to it and they feel like it not for them, and then they generalize that that realm is never going to be something that they would ever want to work in. Well, it's gonna evolve, I mean, all these things are going to evolve. Maybe it won't
be YouTube specific. Maybe YouTube will stay that the realm of what is now, which is you know, I enjoy some of the things that are on there, but it may be that it will really you know, there'll be more diversification, there'll be more different kinds of shows even within YouTube. So there's plenty of there's a lot of opportunity, and there's a lot of a lot of ways to go, and you can know, having a good script is a beginning and then being industrious about figuring out where it can fit in.
You know, we just were talking about web series too, because uh, you know, I took that class with you about creating a web series,
and you know that is something too. You know, I've noticed was that there's more web series competitions springing up more and more, uh, you know, and they're very open because there's no you know, set page count, you know what I mean, Like so some kid, you know, they're like, hey, if you're if you're entry is five pages or whether it's twenty five pages, as long as you're you know, you have this concept for for you know, the channel or for the project in general.
You know you will will accept these entries. Yeah, I mean, yeah,
you can. It can be whatever you want it to be. I mean, someone can define if if something's really compelling and it's thirty minutes, it's people are gonna watch it. I mean, it's just a matter of a matter of doing something that's of quality and doing something that really you know, that that really is you know, outstanding for people and satisfies and you know it is resonant, and I think you know, you can bring the same skill sets of and the same same emotional tools that you bring put in
a screenplay to these short forms, and you can also use the short form to boost a you know, boost a script or a movie. There's a lot more of people putting together real to try and sell projects. You know, they sort of like to really investing in whatever their ideas and having a way to present it that really injects it into people's heads in a creative way.
So it may not just be reading the script. It's you know, there's there's more to it, and that's you know, I mean, as a writer, I would prefer if it was just this level playing field, it was this orderly situation where people were reading the scripts and then you know, making rational decisions about them after having you know, a good experience reading
the script. But there's it's gotten. The people are doing more and more to try and and and enhance the possibilities of something and get people's attention to to the material that they have. Yeah, what one common tactor that I've seen is to make something into like a transmedia projects you know, where it's you know, a web series and uh, or it starts off as a novel and then you make the movie, or then you write the script and
say, hey, it's based off the novel by the same writer. You know, I've seen people, you know more people trying to package things. You know, like we were talking about setting setting up projects, and you know what they would try to do is also get Facebook page, a fan page or sorry, facebook fans for their page, you know, Twitter followers, and that way, when you're pitching to people, they can say, hey, look we already have you know, ten thousand people on the on
this on this fan page. Yeah, and that you know, that speaks the idea that you can so much, that you can do yourself, and that you can't you know that that whole the other going back to the feature realm, you know, there's this you know, people who are doing a kickstarter, you know, you you can get a movie done that way. You can, you know, if you have a script and if you you
know you have to. It's there's a whole there's an art and a science to doing kickstarter or see in the spark and that's a way to build the following for your your script and kind of figure out, well, is there,
you know, find the audience for it. And then if you do, if you do a Kickstarter and you start a Facebook page and you do all these things and people and you're able to communicate what your film is and get people and people resonate with it, then that's you know, that's the kind of a test of you know, if you do that, then your
your project. It bodes well for your projects, so you know, so it's a good thing to do. But again that's it's really like it's just not just not just having the script, but then doing all these other things.
And sometimes rather than going around and trying to get sort of go around to the agents and managers and producers and try and get permission to do something which you know, or get them to approve what you've done so that they can then go out and market it, if you really just go into the trenches with it and just you know, try and try and figure out a way to get it done yourself or that that may be more productive ultimately.
So yeah, very very true. Tom. You know, Tom, I wanted to you know, ask because you know, we need tower a conversation about you know, making projects. You know, what sort of advice you know, would you give to somebody who was, uh who you know who was thinking about writing a screenplay? Uh for for you know, I usually say beginners, but if you don't mind, Tom, what would you say to somebody who maybe even is beyond the beginner and maybe like intermediate to advance?
You know, what would you give, you know, any advice to them about about you know, sort of right for writing for their next screenplay, whether it be about structure, whether it be about concept. Is there
any anything you know that you could comment about? I would say, no, great character, driving plot, great characters, and uh really having a you know, making sure that your movie is really about something and you know, working working to the heart of what it is and uh you know that's probably you know, just just just giving it, giving your project and I've been saying this, giving your project love, you know, giving it all the loves you can and really you know, make it great and uh,
you know, and be able to enunciate what it is, really say, say what it is and not to oversimplify it, but to really sort of
have and I you know, be able to be clear. You know, you might not know it when you start out what it was really about, but by the or you or you might not know what sort of the mirror, you know, what the important things that your characters go through that they really discover about themselves or what they you know, what they finally conquer or just like you know what that could mean to people who would be hearing about
the project. So they hear about you know, they might hear about a high concept, some sort of hook of what the plot is where it takes place, which sounds really Oh, that's interesting. I haven't heard that, you know, that's I haven't that sounds I'd like to see that. Well, right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
show. But then if the closer is and this person, this guy or this woman, they what they would happened to them, the main characters experience in their own life in their own terms of what happens to them through through the story, which is going to translate to you know, it's going to be the people who hear the story, watch the film and read the script, they're gonna they're gonna grow from whatever that growth is that takes place in
the character, and you know, sometimes that's not it. Sometimes characters don't change, they don't grow, and it's not every movie and not to be formulated it has to be that way. But I think that even if that's not the case, the character will have there's a certain kind of heart story that will take place at the center of most films, which is what people remember. That's what people that's why people remember movies is because of that story
within the story. And you know, I'm I'm always chasing it down with my own stuff, and uh, you know, sometimes I don't know. Sometimes I start with the story that's very external and you have to start somewhere, and you not, you may not know what it's really about until you've
written it and you can outline and outline and outline. But I think in the in writing is where if you really let yourself you go when you're writing, if you really, you know, take the ride with it, you'll discover what you'll learn, what you're you're you know, it's it's in you and you're sort of the instrument that's gonna get it out. But it's gonna you want it to have a life of its own on the page, you know, and even talking with Scott you know, you know, Scott Meyers,
the other half of scre Writing masterclass. For those listening, uh, you know, we were talking about character and how character is everything because characters suggest plot. You know, everything comes from character, you know, and and those moments, moments where they change in the film, that all comes
from you know, their character and either wanting or needing to change. And you know, this whole idea where you can you know, sort of take out you know, an outline, formula outline and just plug whatever in there. I think it's a downfall to a lot of screenwriters because I've seen them, you know, try to say, oh man, you know, on page seventeen, I gotta have this, and on page thirty, I gotta have this, and and you know, you just go, you know,
you wonder why why movies become formulaic? What's because of stuff like that? Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that, you know, I mean, the you know, the formulas or the dramatic structure wasn't it wasn't invented before the story. The first stories were told. The stories were
told naturally. People just told stories. And then after a while people sat down, well, why is everybody listening to him or her, you know, And then they realized, oh, well, you know this is where you know, they they set it up here and they you know, they worked it and then they there was this point where everything went went downhill completely to the bottom. The main character, they all bottomed out, and then
there was this lift you know, at the end. So yeah, they figured they maybe they saw that in what those but the stories came first, and so there was no theory. So and the theory is a way to sort of you know, sometimes you may write just okay, I know I'm going to need these things, and it's a way to start writing. It's a way to get going. But you want to just let the story.
You want to just kind of find the story in its rost form, and then it may be misshapen in some way, or it may be missing some elements, like you know, and then you can go to the formula or go to those models of how scripts are structured, and you know, the idea the lessons about dramatic structure and just sort of measure what you have against those ideas about structure, and it might say, wow, you know, I never really I didn't really explore my characters enough before the point, you
know, before the the you know, when everything got really bad and all is lost moments, so to speak. You know, so you can use it to kind of diagnose, but you may not want to necessarily start. You may want to write instinctively at first and then see how it fits into those structural models as kind of a remedy. It's like in acting, you know, the method method acting, you know, is this wave of this
wave sort of imagining. I'll oversimplify it, but it's if a character, if an actor has a part that they're doing, they may dig deep in their own experience to find moments that will make them feel the moments in their real life that made them feel in a similar way to the characters way the character might be feeling because of what's going on in the story. So they'll plug that in and they'll realize, Okay, at that point, I'm going to think about when my you know, when when I saw the elephant get
euthanized or whatever it is. Now, so that'll make me cry. So they'll and maybe in the movie they're watching you know something completely, you know, they're observing a soldier dying in a bed or something you know, whatever it is, but they use that emotional moment from their real life to sort of make themselves feel and appears or the way that they're supposed to fear appear. And that's method acting, but some actors may need to do that every
second of how complicated would that be? Every moment you're trying to scotch tape together something had happened from when your life. I think most of the time
most actors, even method actors, are just imagining it. They're just they jump into the character and they imagine it, and then they reach a bump in the road at a certain point where you know, they're facing that soldier dying in the bed, and they just they're just not feeling it, or they just don't feel like they really have a clear understanding of what it would really they can't bring They're just looking for more from what they want to be
from their performance. So in that piece of the of their performance, they may use that idea from that that experience from their real life and bring it in and then just use that there so that and then on film people you know, it will work really well because there they seem to be the emotion is really you know, appropriate for what they're they would for for what's going
on at that point. That could be a great performance, but that's that's a technique, and that may not be a technique that is used every second of of you know. It's just like you don't do that all the time. An actor doesn't do that all the time, just the same way a writer may not use the form you know, the formulas all the time as they write. I may just write, and when they hit that bump in the road or they just want something more, they feel like there's something missing,
then they'll go to the technique. Then they'll go to the formulas and
use it as a as a helper, you know. And it's also something two times, you know, as we talk, you know about about writing and you know, and we're talking about outlining, because you know, when I when I've outlined and then I started actually write it, I've had a lot of aha moments as I'm actually writing, you know, I'm sort of like, oh, okay, you know, maybe this could happen, you know what I mean, you start getting these ideas that you sort of maybe
can't see with the outline because you're the outline really ends up becoming like a
lot of broad strokes, if you know what I mean. And that's what I've learned too, is you know, as we're making this outline to really get in there, and it's you're able to sort of now say, okay, now this scene has to come out of this scene, and now we can do this and you know within this scene, this is how this reversal happens in this scene, because you know, it started off with guy A has all the power, and then it ends with guy BE having all the
power, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I think I completely agree. I think that, you know, I feel sometimes I feel like I outline too much and then I'd be better off just writing pages. And then I sort of want to be I want to be writing pages, just to let myself be writing pages. And then there's this fear that, oh no, if I write, If I write pages, you know, it's just I'm going to write myself into a hole with a stuff that doesn't make
sense. And I you know, but I think that there is a point where you really want to, you know, you want to write, and I think in some ways you can. I also like to and I advise get start writing, go forward. See what, see what's going to happen, and then go back to your outline. Play with your outline based on what you write. You know, restructure based on the inspiration that comes from
the writing, because it will change, it should change. You know, if you're writing for you know, if you have a deadline and you have a producer you know, a company or something and they're they've approved an outline, well that's different. You know, you can you can diverge a little bit, but you may have to stick with it. But you know, if you're just writing your own scripture, just like, no, bring yourself
up. No, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And you know because I actually, you know, I started off writing feature films and now I actually just wrote two TV pilots, one half hour one drama, and now you know, I sort of I see you know, talking with like Jennifer gersani as she was on the podcast few episodes ago, you know, where we're talking about creating that bible, uh, you know, and just creating a pitch and to making sure that all this stuff is set so
that you know, they know that you have a vision of where this is gonna go, and you know, the whole thing sort of it sort of folds back and you have the vision of where it's gonna go and the series arc, what's gonna happen in season one? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, which you know, which is the season one arc, and then you have the entire you
know, episodic arc about that season, you know what I mean. So it's you know, putting all this stuff together and you realize, you know, making a TV pilot is actually really really difficult, and I and I and I actually might venture off Tom and saying, you know, pound for pound, it might be the most difficult of doing all this stuff, you know, whether we're talking about writing web series or feature films or TV.
You know, I think TV writing it writing a TV pilot because you have to get everything in motion and you have to you know, make sure that you know, it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's intriguing and all that stuff, and you have to do introduce all these characters within you know, thirty and you know, one hour, you know what I mean.
Yeah, I agree, it's really hard, and you know, I think the idea of having to present this they want more, you know, they want an episode, and you know, the pilot and then outlines for a couple of episodes and then the whole you know, a season some you know, a season Bible of some sort, or just you know, descriptions of many many things. It's really it's like you're pre writing a novel. It's it's pretty. It's tough, you know, and and you can get away.
I think you can get away with less if you have a really strong pilot. But you do have to give him a lot of I was being with a writer, you know, was done a lot of a lot of stuff, and he was he was saying that that they that it's that most of the speculation of the season of the Bible is just like bs that most of the time it's not going to end up that way. You know that you can't really know, you can't really pre determine the season from just writing
the pilot. And maybe some people can. I don't know, I don't know if that's okay. But there are buyers who are buying the entire you know that they're just buying the entire season, so that that's really what you're you know, you're going in and they you want to sell them, you know, the production of the entire season of the show, so you better have something A yeah, and you're right. It is like setting up a
novel. It's you know, because you have to make sure they they they know, they have to make sure that you know where this is going, you know, it's not just sort of like the pilot. And then you're like, well, I gotta kind of figure out where everything goes from here, you know. And speaking of very for TV, you actually have an upcoming uh TV writing class? Correct, Tom, I do I have one. It starts it's this week. Are you when is this airing? I
have? I have. I have a one week class this week, and then in September I have a pilot workshop that's going to be going on. So this will will be airing about two weeks, so maybe the beginning of September. Yeah, let me tell you here. I'll let me get the dates here for you. I can figure that out here. One second. Two weeks okay, September fifth, right after Labor Day, I have a Pages one writing the first draft. That's a feature class. And then that
September twelfth, I have pages two it's a rewrite class. For features, and we also do TV pilots in there as well, so it's you know that one both both can be in there. And then on the twenty sixth of September, I have a Pages TV Original TV Pilotscript Workshop, So that's a ten week pilot workshop where we you know, we work out a whole series concept and pilotscript in that class. So I have those things up coming
at Screenwriting Masterclass on the line. Very cool, Tom, you know, so you know, and I'll make sure to link to those in the show notes everyone and you in closing, Tom, because I know we're just about at a time. Is there anything that we didn't discuss or anything you sort of want to say to put a period at the end of this conversation. Uh, well, it was. It was great speaking with you, and
uh yeah. I just think I encourage people to, uh to to write, to tell their stories, and just know, I think that the product the writing itself, and you know, create doing doing creative writing and uh you know, concentrating in a in a form like screen screenwriting or pilot writing.
I think that it's its own reward. And simultaneously, there's a there's a great world out there and Uh, as much as we're you know, we're there, we still have one foot in the way things were in feature films and we were we've actually moved forward into some this new realm and film entertainment and it's really and it's it's an incredible because of the changes the technology and the changes in lifestyle have been going on. It's an incredible time for
film entertainment and it's an incredible visual. Visual elements are so important, and film video and filmed elements on the on the web in always are so important. So imagining out these stories in script form, it's just a great thing to do, and it's important to have fun with it and to you know, love find out what the shows are and the and the movies are that you really love, and keep watching and keep reading and you know, that's
that's about all. That's that's that's it. No very cool Tom. And where people find you out online? Uh, screenwriting masterclass dot com. If anybody has any questions, I'm Tom. You know him at screenwriting masterclass dot com. And I also have a podcast which I started very recently at which we have the first three episodes are up. It's called The Process dot I n k and we're on iTunes and we're talking about the just like writing,
we're talking about the creative process. And I've had some amazing you know I had Today I spoke with Billy Finkelstein, who's you know, he's he's a he's on the writing staff of the spin off to the Good Wife. And he did the feature he did he wrote the this uh bad Lieutenant, Bad Lieutenant city of City of New Orleans that Werner Herzog directed with with Nicholas Cage, which is a very good film. He just he did that, So
we're talking about that. And he worked on La Law, and he worked on Cop Rock and he's a good friend of David Milch and the real interesting guys working on all these different shows, working on Law and Order and now he's on this show at CBS. So talked about you know, running shows
and creating shows, and I've had I've had. I'm gonna be talking with beck Smith, who's an indie h specialist at you know, a talent agency next week and I'm going to speaking to someone who works at Upright Citizens Brigade and stand Up Comic and I'm going to be and I've had other interesting so the process dot im K please check it out and any requests for kinds of guests. I'm open to feedback about what I'm doing on the show excellent.
I will also link to that in the show notes. Everyone. You can always find me at Dave Bullis dot com and Twitter. It's at Dave Underscore Bullets. Tom. I want to say thank you very much coming on the show, sir, Thank you very much. This is a pleasure, and I hope we'll we'll talk soon and I'll see in the Warner Herzog class. Yeah, right exactly where I will. Yeah, it's it's a small world. But yeah, I know, Tom, I I know we'll our Parsil cross again very soon. Okay, thank you, Thank you, Dave.
Take care of Tom herebye. I want to thank Dave so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward Slash three twenty four. Thank you so much for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the full aproof screenwriting podcasts at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv m