You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number two ninety nine, except no one's definition of your life, Define it yourself. Harvey Fierstea broadcasting from a dark, windowless room
in Hollywood when we really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that used to reading tent pole movies when your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we wanted to focus on that.
At Bulletproof script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WM, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to cover my Screenplay dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Jason Buff. Today we are talking with
Steve Kaplan, author of the book The Hidden Tools of Comedy. He's also the creator of the HBO Workspace, creator of the HBO New Writers Program. So we'll be talking to Steve in just a second. I really had a great talk with him, and we also add a lot of fun little clips and things in there so that you can really get a feel for the topics we're talking about. Here's my interview with Steve Kaplin. Did you immediately open up a theater company or how that worked well? I actually came to Los
Angeles first. Uh. We uh. In New York, we did. We were running this theater called Manhattan Punchline, and we used to do a one act festival every year. So a bunch of people wanted to bring a number of one ax out to Los Angeles, and so that's what originally brought me out there. They I helped them put up this evening of one Axe h and I knew I was going to stay, so I came out.
I did a little theater, but then I tried to get a real, you know, big boy pants, grown up job, and it took me a little bit of time, but eventually I hooked up with Chris Albrecht at HBO. I pitched him an idea and uh he he ran with it. And first we did the HBO New I Just Project and that ran for a couple of years, and then he started the Aspen Comedy Festival, and in support of that, with a couple of other people, we opened up a
performance space in Los Angeles called the HBO Workspace. It's now being run by Comedy Central. And what we did was we helped facilitate their search for comedians and comics, and at the same time, we were producing shows and showcasing people both for HBO executives for them to take a look at and also just uh to uh kind of be an asset and a service to the community.
So uh so that's what originally That's what I originally did in Los Angeles, and then I got involved in management um talent management, and I uh, after doing that for a couple of years, I realized, Hey, I'm no good at this because did you tell your clients that one day? Well, well, either eventually eventually the clients that were left to me. Uh, you know, I I told. But the terrible thing about I wasn't
an ancient. I was a manager. And the terrible thing about being a manager, uh is that you're you know, especially for me, because I took everything very personally. So if somebody you said this person is not good for this job, um, oh I don't like the script. I I felt devastated. It was like, um, it was like getting broke up with by a girl every every every week. Uh. And when and when clients leave left me, Um, it was really like getting broke up with
a girl, especially when they started the conversation. You know, Steve, I like you as a person, and I said, you know, I I when I was in my dating years, I used to hear that a lot. So I realized that that wasn't that wasn't my metire. It was kind of a zig when I should have zagged. Uh and along the way I had run into a guy and uh uh and and a funny you know, funny story. He was he was showcasing a show and and I happened to leave in the middle of the show because it was it was not very
good. And and amazingly enough, um years later he uh got in touch with me to take a look at a script. Uh. So I I looked at a script and I gave him notes and again I I was more cruel than kind. Uh. And amazingly enough, a couple of years later he said to me, um, and this is when I was really I was. I was about to say this, this whole management thing was that move? Uh And he said, I'm working with Robert McKay, and I think you could do for comedy what Robert McKay does for story. And he
said, have you ever taught comedy to writers? And I said, well, I started out teaching comedy to actors at my theater company. Um, and I've worked on a lot of scripts with a lot of playwrights, and I assume that I can this, this will translate over to writers. And from there it from that little seed, a mighty oak grew. Now I mean it seems such a for for somebody who doesn't understand the concept of breaking up comedy and you know, seeing what's going on and why it's working and
why people are are laughing at something. What was kind of like that first step into teaching comedy. What were the first kind of like obvious things that that you found that people needed to to understand about comedy. Well, I mean, well you should understand that the theater company that I was running, um UH, that I started with two other actors, Manhattan Punchline, was a theater completely devoted to comedy. So that's all we did. We produced
comedy plays, we um, We showcased improv groups. Michael Patrick King, who later went on to write Sex in the City and Two Brooke Girls was was was one of the leaders of this uh improv group along with um, you know Don Morevero, who's now a very well known stand up comic. We produced late night shows with stand ups including Rita Rudner Jane Anderson who's now a very famous playwright. Uh. And so that's all we did. And the first thing I noticed about comedy is that it's fucking hard, and it's
it's elusive. Would I would be producing a show and I would be standing in the back of the audience, and the show that was a riotous hit on Thursday was met with crickets on Sunday, and the actors would come off stage and they would say, what a terrible audience. But I was standing in the audience, and I wasn't terrible, and I was prepared to enjoy it. I might not laugh out loud as much as people who hadn't seen
the show, but I I started noticing differences. I started noticing that there was a different approach to the material, a slight differentiation in how the actors were meeting the material night by night. And that's what started me on the exploration that that became a forty week master class, which then became a weekend workshop, which then became a book, which translated into Chinese, because God knows you need some funny your Chinese. Well you know you've arrived, yes,
um uh, and and it's going to be translated into French. So so now we can be rude when we're funny. Maybe I shouldn't say, finally the French will have commedy. I'm su I'm supper. Yeah, I'm really I'm supposed to be U supposed to be going to Paris in April, so so hopefully they will listen to that part of the podcast. Well,
we have a big French you know, listening exactly. So So I started to notice that that there were certain certain things that that were for the most part unrecognized or or not thought to be uh important or or or vital uh. And these became what I called the hidden tools of common will be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I mean, all the actors and the playwrights that I was working with, you know, they had all gone to college or conservatory, and they all
knew Uda Hogan and Stanislavsky uh and and great uh playwriting techniques. But but there were certain things that they they were not aware of that I started to become aware of only because I was standing the back and and oftentimes I was directing a play, and I would start to notice that that there were things that they did that decreased the comedy and things that they did that increased the
comedy. So I mean, for instance, um, one of the things that that kills comedies if if you know the actor knows too much if the act you know, in in acting classes is called anticipating, but what it really is is the actor is too aware of um, of what's happening,
what's going on, too in fact too smart. Uh So. So one of the things that um, that I started to realize that were there, there were these principles that had not been taught anywhere, or for the most part, had not been taught, and that great comics and comedians either picked up or new by by instinct, um, but that could be analyzed and uh and presented and taught uh to people who hadn't spent their entire childhoods uh
listening to all the George Carlin and and Richard Pryor albums for instance. Right, and oh and you would like to hear one of these, Yeah, that would be that would be helpfully is okay? Well this podcast? Okay? Uh So, So there's there's the um, there's the dynamic of straight
line wavy line. And that's that's my terminology for it, which which basically means that rather than a straight man in a comic, everybody thinks that you know, if you see a duo, there's a comic a funny person doing funny things and a straight man who's just kind of or a straight woman who's just kind of setting things up. And I came to realize that that dynamic is false, that it's not about a funny guy doing funny things and other
people just kind of setting them up. It's really about somebody who is blind to the problem or creating the problem, and somebody who's struggling with the problem but unable to solve it because they're they're flawed. They're they're just a flawed human being. Way when, for instance, when John Klee started Monty Python, he said that when they started Monty Python, he thought that comedy was watching somebody do something funny. What they came to realize is comedy is watching
somebody watch somebody do something funny. Yes, you know, it's a man's life in England's Mountain screen. That's what I hear. That I'm going to stop this sketch down and that there's anymore of this. I'm going to stop the whole program. I thought it was supposed to be about teeth anyway, what I am going to do something about teeth? I'm rustic, man,
Alon not sleeping with that producer again. Comedy is the person who is kind of like us, struggling with some idiot, so that if you put Jerry Seinfeld and Kramer in a room, yes, it looks like Kramer is doing all the funny stuff, but without Jerry being a human being kind of perplexed and amused and confused by Cramer, there's no comedy has life on the Red Planet. It's killing me. I can't eat, I can't sleep. All I can see is that giant red sun in the shape of a chicken.
What did you go down to the Kenny Rodgers and complaint? Oh? They gave me the heave hole. You know, I don't think that Kenny Rodgers has any idea. What's going on down them? What are you doing? That's tomato juice that looked like milk to me, Jerry, my rods and cones ross I got say, I gotta move in with you, Jerry. I don't know, Craig. My concern is that living together after a while, I might start to get on each other's nerves a little. Listen to
me. I got a great idea. Now you're a heavy sleeper, right, Why don't we just switch apartments? Or I could sleep in the park. You can knock these walls down, make it an eight room luxury, Sweet Jerry, these are a load buried walls. They're not gonna come down. Yeah, that's no good. You have to drive that place out of business. How are you gonna do that like we did in the sixties taking
it to the streets. That's one of the things that I, you know, mentioning that I always remember, Like Conan O'Brien, one of the things that makes his skits so funny is having something completely insane happening, and then you don't really laugh until the camera cuts back to Conan's reaction to it.
Exactly. So if you if you start, if you watch sitcoms, good sitcoms, you'll notice that that the the comedy, really, the comedy is the comedy circuit is completed when there's a reaction to the craziness, not just the craziness. Uh so, uh so, what seems to be the east part the straight man really is essential to comedy. And if you watch a good SNL sketch, and there aren't you know, not every SNL sketch is good, but a good SNL sketch is the comedy is the human being in
the equation. It's the it's the person who's being weirded out by the weird stuff that's happening, and it's only underscored by the idiot who's not paying any attention. Right, So uh there. I mean, just the other night on SNL there were you know, Adam Driver was on him. Yeah. I guess he didn't get such great reviews. Somebody said, well, it's not Trump SNL bad, but but there was a there was a there was a great Aladdin sketch in which he's flying on the magic carpet and um uh
and uh the uh, the girl I can't remember. I think it's um Cecily Strong. I think I think that's who it was. Uh, is on the magic carpet and first a bird flies into her and then a bomb drops in hercus there over Syria, and she keeps on getting weirded out, and then she keeps on trying to get back into the romantic moment. And that is so human. Uh. And meanwhile, uh, Jeff, you know, Aladdin, as played by Adam Driver is completely oblivious. So that's
the perfect example of straight line wavy line. Somebody who's on a straight track, like has blinders on blind to the problem or creating the problem, and somebody else who's struggling the problem. But because they're they're what we call a non hero, unable to solve the problem. And a non hero is another is another thing that or principle that we talk about in which it's not about being a ridiculous person, a clown, you know, a silly clown.
It's really just about somebody who lacks some, if not all, the essential tools and skills with which to win. So sometimes the most basic skill with which to win is simply knowing. So so one of the best directions you can ever give in comedy is don't know so much don't know, And what that means is that if something happens, don't because you've read the script and you know what's happening on this page and what's going to happen on the next
page, don't react like you've got it. I understand it. Be confused, let there be doubt. Doubt is the friend of comedy. Being unsure is the friend of comedy, and being sure being certain about things is dramatic. It just becomes being self reflective is a dramatic moment. And what we found out is that these principles aren't just here's how you be funny. It's really about here's how you can modulate the levels of comedy or drama in a
scene. You want a character to be more dramatic, make them, give them more skills, make them more empathetic, more sensitive, more kind, more knowing, make them, make them less comic. Take away those skills. Create a comedy, create a strong straight line wavy line relationship, create a dramatic moment. Have everybody make you know, make eye contact and be empathetic with each other, and have them have them share the scene, will be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the
show. So those kinds of things don't apply just to comedy, but you can actually modulate the amount of comedy and drama in a scene by increasing or decreasing these principles. When you're talking about you know, you would see one show and then you'd see the same show and it wasn't funny for whatever reason.
Were those improv shows or were they literally saying the same things in that In that case, what's happening is the actors will subtly begin to adjust their performance so they look less ridiculous because nobody in the world wants to look like an idiot. And so in a comedy, sometimes the characters are doing idiotic things, but the actors will subtly, subtly, just make an adjustment so that it's a little bit more understandable, appropriate, logical, and rational.
And so sometimes that's why a script is Sometimes the funny is the first time the actors get around the table to read it, because the actors aren't aware of how stupid they're going to sound when they say this line. Once they understand how stupid they sound, they either make it sound stupid or and again to put on a mask to protect themselves, or they make it sound just
slightly less stupid. Here's an example. It's hard. It's hard to think of a film or TV show where you can see somebody anticipating, although you know, they used to talk about how they would have to trick the three Stooges into not knowing when the pie is coming, because if they knew when the pie was coming, it wouldn't be funny. So what they would say is that, okay, we're gonna hit you on three, one, two,
and they would hit him on two. They would do everything they could, and these guys were hit with thousands of pies, so they would go to great lengths to try to fool them when the pie was coming, because if they knew when the pie was coming, it wouldn't just be that they would flinch, they would subtly react that, oh, I'm going to get hit. But a better example is, uh is like bad comedy like,
um, I'm not a fan of late Jerry Lewis. I love early Jerry Lewis because if you watch early Jerry Lewis like at Home in the Army. I think the first movie he made with Dean Martin, he is so innocent, so sweet, so unknowing. But later, when when you know the French told him he's a genius, he's he just twists himself into a pretzel, as though as though to say, if you just looked at me, you wouldn't see an idiot. So I'm gonna have to pretend I'm an idiot.
Uh So you know, just think of any bad comedy you know, um, something bad with Rob Schneider, Grown Ups two in which people are acting are pretending to be idiots. And my point of view, what I always tell writers and actors is that you don't have to pretend we are idiots. I mean, that's who we are. We're human beings. We're we're we're we're you know, these stupid dupasts who are bumbling around this this planet, you know, hurt link through space, you know, making up all
sorts of reasons why and we don't know, We just don't know. So so the art of comedy is actually the art of telling the truth about what it's like to be a human. It seems like the moment somebody is trying to intentionally be funny or you see something like you know, you can kind of see that, oh, look they're trying to be funny right now, right is the moment that it just it's not funny at all, you know. And you seem to see that in a lot of these comedies that they're
just like, especially let's say whatever Kevin James movie. You know, it's like, okay, we're gonna have this wacky thing and there, let's do all these situations where oh, he's going to be put into this situation, in that situation, and it's just like there's nothing funny about it, maybe for like a five year old, but it just doesn't doesn't work. Oh, well I haven't seen uh Paul Blart Mall Cop two? I have seen it? You have seen it? Yeah? Was it great? It was
so good? No, I mean it's it's like I love I love watching bad movies as well as good movies because you get to kind of like put it together and and you know, I mean it just it has a couple of moments. But I mean ask you this. Have you not seen it? Have you seen Hitch? I've seen Hitch Chess with the Smith with What's the difference in Kevin James between Hitch and Paul Blart Mall Cop two. Um, he's got a slight accent and fake teeth, I think is the only
difference. That's the only difference. Well, I don't really remember Hitch that well, he wasn't, I mean plays he plays this sweaty guy who wants to marry, who wants to get with a supermodel, Right, I can't. What I remember about Hitch is that he was recognizable. He was like one of us, Okay, and he was a little clumsy, but he but he wasn't such an exaggerated clown that he was no longer recognizable as human, Right, whereas I'm guessing in Mall Cop two, he does things that
no, no sentient human being would do. Somebody thought, wouldn't it be funny? If right? Yeah, well, you know most of the movies that you know, and a lot of things, all these situations happened that aren't that really aren't, you know, believable. So I think you're kind of watching it like, oh, that's kind of funny or whatever, but you don't you're not brought into the story. You don't actually believe any of
these characters are real, right, you know. So if you look at a movie like um, The Other Guys with Will Farrell and and Mark Wahlberg, there's a moment in which, uh, in which they're walking away from a store and the store explodes, and then they're on the ground and Will
Farrell's going, it hurts. They never tell you it hurts. And that's the comedy, is noticing what's around you and being and being aware of the inconsistencies, the absurdities what Dorothy Parker called having a sharp eye and a wild mind. As I can't here yeahs, oh my god, I walk away in movies without flitsy what it explodes behind that there's no way. What bullshit on that? When they flew the Millennium falcon outside of the desk start it
was followed by the explosion that was bullshit. Don't you demo star Wars that was all accurate. I've got softishue down. There's no way. I don't have softission down at least. I just want to go somewhere and breastfeed right
now. So so when a comic comes out in a club and says uh and says hey you in the front row and starts to make a comment, that's the essence of comedy, which is noticing what's around you and not taking it for granted and seeing the absurdity in it, and and share and and being confused by it, not necessarily knowing all about it and being a dick about it, but but just kind of commenting on it in a way that both expresses what you feel and also questions it and doesn't doesn't quite know what
the answer is, which is why a comic is what about that? What's the deal with? It's a question? It's not a statement. Once you're making statements your your your politician, a question is as a comedian, So yeah, I mean, what what do you think is I mean, do you feel like, for example, when I'm writing, I you know, I'm also a writer. Um, A lot of the things great by the
way, I love it. It's golden the comedy for me, Like I grew up always seeing things as being comic, you know, And when I was in as early as I can remember, I would be in just situations and just start laughing, and people would even get mad at me because I would talk into somebody and just all their little quirks and things would just like something would come out of that and I'd start laughing and they'd be like, well, what, what's so funny? You know, there's medication to get
mad at me? Yeah, well, thank god. And when I when I write, it's like it's impossible even if I mean the stuff that I write is more kind of character driven stuff, but it's the humor just comes out of it. It's like I'm not even trying. And then once you have, once you really feel a character on the page, living and breathing, just the humor just comes out of it without even trying to do anything, just their actions. And I've never looked into it deeper to try and
dissect why it's funny, but it just seems like that. It's like, I don't even know why it's funny, but it's funny that when you have like a real character and they do something that you're just like, oh, that's you know, that's that character. You know, that's how they do stuff. Well. In the course, what I say is that the value of the course is not to take what you do and change it entirely. It's not it's not a methodology. It's not here's how you make the sausage.
But it's it's a toolbox, and you use tools when something is broken. So if if you're writing and everything's working, great, we'll be right back after a word from our spon answer and now back to the show. Don't look at it, don't say well what is Blake Snyder and and Robert McKee and Steve Kaplan, No, just keep going. But when there's a
scene that doesn't work, that's when you can use a tool. Um, that's when you can try to figure out what we teach is what comedy is, how it works, why it works, what's going on when it's not working, and what can you do about it. So when you if you have something that's not working. Then you have some tools to try to figure out and you want the scene to be comic. Um, that's when you can figure out, well, what could I do here? Can I?
Can I use a metaphorical relationship? Can I should there be a straight line wavy line relationship. Now, when you look at somebody like Judd Apatow and I just recently watched again this is forty, it just seems like so much of that we're always kind of riding this line between what's kind of going too far, what's going to be something to And you know, with a lot of the comedy podcast too, the comedy is not coming out of people trying
to be funny. It's coming out of really difficult situations and people, you know, fighting about things and whatever. What How do you look at that kind of comedy versus all these kind of stupid slapstick kind of you know, silly coms. I mean, my my favorite comedies are the comedies that tell
the truth about about people. Now, it could you could tell the truth in a fantastical situation like groundhog Day one of my favorite comedies, but one of my other favorite comedies his forty year Old Virgin and One of the reasons I love forty year old virgin is because they don't make him a ridiculous character. You know, after the poker game, and you know, he's kind of ridiculous. He's he's riding a bike, he's never he's he's he's you
know, he's frozen in this adolescence. But after the poker game, he's humiliated. Yes, it is question, are you a virgin? Are you a virgin? Yeah? Yeah, since I was ten, it all makes sense. You're a virgin. I am shot. How does that happen? He's a fucking virgin? All knew? If that makes so much sense? Man, virgin, You guys are hilarious, right, don't be mean. I'm not being mean. I'm trying to help the part now. I'm trying to say. I want to get you laid. Dude, I understand what's
going on. Guys. I'm so up your asses the MAGA san Come on, man, you can do better than that. You are so stifend. Come on, Uh, it's gonna be fine. They don't even remember. Those guys are cool and you feel for him. It's not like I It's not like some I don't know Rob Schneider I assume he's a very talented guy. I'm just using Rob. If you were listening to this, I'm just using you as kind of an icon of not good comedy. Without Rob, this is Steve So I mean, they're not just making him some idiot.
They're humanizing him. And he goes he rides home. Uh. He he has this primal scream and it's so in touch with true emotions, what we would all be going through. And then he goes back into work and he thinks, maybe I'll just maybe they won't remember it. And yeah, they say, Hi, how you doing, And all of a sudden, everybody's ragging on him, and uh and and uh, you know, loo,
let's get the virgin laid and he us not the store. And the thing that made me love the movie was was Paul Rudd running after him, trying to help him. Right, human sweet, Uh, not ridiculous. So they never you know, Yes, there are some outlandish, very very broad things in that movie, but for the most part, it's grounded in a
human condition. In the in in What would Happen to Us? Uh, Chris Rock was talking about his evolutionist as a filmmaker, and he was talking about that that he's learned a lot from Louis c. K and that now uh, whereas in the past he would go for any joke possible, but now especially with um his uh I can't remember the name of the movie five Things or top five uh. That he basically said, put somebody in a
situation and say what would they do now? And to me, that's the best way to develop a comic premise is you come up with a with a fantastic premise, something that's impossible or implausible, and then put in you know, our typical comic comedy characters and then see what would they do now, what would happen now? And develop it, like you say, through character as opposed to plot. Yeah, it's it's interesting, you know, going
back to the forty year forty year old Virgin. One of the things that people forget about that is if you go later in the film, once his relationship with Katherine Keener develops, it actually becomes a very like you know, it's still comic and everything, but it's more like it's a real heartwarming story, you know, and he's you know, showing the dealing with the daughter
and all that stuff, you know what I mean. I love I love that scene where he's like, you know, I speak sarcasm too, and he's got you know, he does a magic trick and she's like, do you walk around with the ear in your pocket? You know? I mean, I love those scenes, but they're not like you know, they're they're more of like a drama, you know, it's like a real story. It's and and because they because they don't feel the need to do a joke
or a bit every ten seconds. That a favorite team of mine is when he takes the daughter to the planned parenthood the clinic. Now you're all here because you're interested in obtaining birth control. Any questions. Here's a cute story. I came home the other day and he is with his girlfriend in my marital bed doing things that are illegal in Alabama, sex acts right, things that my wife won't do. Okay, did you have a question? How do I get my wife to do that? Does anybody else have a question?
My daughter is, for lack of a better word, dumb. How do I stop her menstrual cycle? You want her to stop having a menstrual cycle? I want to stop it, maybe just for a few years. Yeah, I don't think that's a good idea. Does anybody else have a question? I have a question. I think some of the people here might be sexually inexperience. Is it true that if you don't use it, you
lose it? Is that a serious question? No, it wasn't. Now, there are a lot of activities that you can engage in without having sex that are both fun and safe. What sort of activities I think everybody wants to know about the activities. Well, instead of having intercourse, you could have outer course. Outer course? Oh what's that? Yeah? What is that? Well? Outer course is anything that isn't vaginal intercourse. I prefer a vaginal intercourse. He really does. Now, there are ways of having
sex without intercourse. Let's see. There are things like body rubbing or dry humping. You could try hump. There's masturbation, masturbation, play with yourself, mutual masturbation, play with a friend, deep kissing, there's erotic massage. All that sounds like it would be nice. Oral sex play sounds like my Friday night upset we went to temple. Okay, are there any virgins here who are thinking about having sex for the first time? Wait, so you're a virgin? I tapped that. Oh yeah, you tap that,
Seth, what do you think you're cool with your little jew frow? We don't say tap that? What what are you talking about, Seth? You know what, I'm a virgin too, that's we're virgins too. Yeah, no, you know what. It's a it's it's a personal choice. And okay, um, I can't listen to any more of this because it's making me six up by You can get this information on your website. Right.
Oh yes, thanks, nice meeting everybody? Any other questions, give me extra large condoms us Seth, you've got a tiny penis, and he's asking more questions than anybody else. But then he's sitting around all these people, all these all the you know, the the kid who thinks he's hot stuff, and and uh, the guy who just wants, you know, his daughter to be here. Can we can we make sure that she doesn't have
any sex till she's thirty five? And then on the drive home, um, uh, the daughter just turns to him and says, you're a virgin, right, and he's And rather than pretending, which which some some uh script teachers will teach, will tell you that the key to comedy is deception. And you know that's such a uh yeah sometimes. But but if if you take that to its logical illogical, you know, to its logical conclusion, you never tell anybody the truth. And that's exhausting. It's exhausting.
And what I love about the scene is he just says, yeah, but don't tell your mom. Okay, well, what are you gonna do it? Well, I'm getting around to it. It's so I keep on going back to that word. It's human. It tells the truth about the human condition. Will be right back back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Drama helps us dream about what we could be, but comedy helps us live with who we are. Comedy is the truth.
Drama is the exaggeration. Drama is the idealization of life. Would that we were as tortured and as sensitive and as poetic and as intellectual as Hamlet? Right we're watching Hamlet. Oh what he's going through? Have you ever seen a production of Hamlet? Um, I've seen the movies? Okay, okay, you seen him, rookie of Hamlet? Have you ever seen in the movie? Did Hamlet fart? Not in the ones I saw? So? What would what do you think would happen. If Hamlet's going to be
or not to be, I probably would enjoy it a lot more. And but yet people do fart, right, yeah so so, but by making him more human, you make it immediately more comic. So I hate comedies that pretend or let me, let me put it this way. I hate comedies where every ten seconds they're going, wouldn't it be funny if this happened? Wouldn't it be funny if that happened? Because I'm more interested in what would happen if this really happened to these characters? What would they do?
What would all these different characters do? Because you don't have to invent shit, you don't have to make shit up. Put three people in a room, they're gonna go in three different directions. Half the time, they're going to run into each other because that's who human beings are. So just let
them. Let them deal with the situation in their own way. If you if you haven't duplicated characters, you're going to create your conflict and your obstacles just because of the characters you have on screen or on stage in that situation. I do an experiment in my workshops. We call it the classic, the classic problem of the three lawyers. I have three people come up.
I make sure that they're not actors or improvisers. I ask for writers who have never performed, and I tell them they're all three lawyers, and that the most important case of their careers began in a courthouse four blocks away, five minutes ago. And I say, if you through that door and whatever room that we're in, whatever meeting room or banquet room we're in, I say, through that door, is the court has four blocks away, you're
five minutes late. And then I have two of them leave, and I tell each one separately that for some crazy reason, they have to be the second person out the door. I'll do that for everyone. I'll say, listen, this is gonna be done. I'm gonna give everybody something different. But for you, I just want you to know that, for some crazy reason, you have to be the second person out the door. And then
I'll bring all three of them back and I'll say start. And what will happen is most times that they'll run to the door and they'll stop, and the audience, of course knows what's happening, and there there will be this great dance of trying to figure out how to get how to be the second person out the door if they're all trying to leave, and then I'll usually say to shout out you have you have the permission to win, in which case I usually put two big guys in a small girl in the group and
you see you're anticipating, right, yeah, I'll say you, I give you the permission to win. And usually one of the big guys will pick up the small girl thrower out and then he'll be the second guy to go. And it's usually a very funny scene. And when I did this a
dream works once with three animators who have never performed. The one animator was this tall, skinny guy and the two guys tried to throw him out of the room and he put one foot on one side of the door and one foot on the other side of the door, and he was like completely horizontal. It was it was amazing. I've never seen that before. And my point is that you don't need you don't need clever dialogue, you don't even
need you don't need directors, you don't even need writers. You just need characters, humans in a situation with a with something unusual or not easy. And see what happens and you and half the time's more than half the time comedy work will occur. Now you raise an important important topic about characters and
having two characters interacting. Do you feel like you need to have, for example, one guy who's going to be the straight man, one guy who's going to be the the you know, the comic part or whatever you want to say. I mean, when you're when you're creating comic moments, do you have to have that sort of conflict between your characters when when you're talking about characters, you don't. It's not so much the conflict, it's it's
you want our typical character. If you think about any commedia troope, you would have the lectris old man, the wily, tricky, clever servant, the young, innocent, the fool and you. You just make sure that you have those artypical types in in your story. I mean, who is the um think of? You know, just in terms of winning the Pooh? Who's your tigger? Who's your e or you know who who's your who's your pooh? Who's the tin man? Who you know? This is Chris
South? Who you know who talks about you know, the the Wizard of oz method of character development. You know, who's the tin man, who's the scarecrow, who's the who's the lion, the child, the the animal, uh, the the thinker? So yeah, you it's not. No one is a straight man. Paul Rudd is not a straight man in in forty year Old Virgin, although he's more the voice of reason than anybody else.
But he's got his own thing because he's you know, pining for Mindy Kaling uh, And he's this he's this romantic who's all you know, fucked up in his head. So so I don't think that the whole idea that there's a straight man is again is a misnomer. And I think I think
a false dynamic. If you take a look at the other guys at any one moment, one of them is insane and the other one is sane but not quite knowing what to do. In this situation, when Will Farrell brings Mark Wahlberg home, he's married to some hottie, and Allmark Whorlberg can say, is she really your wife? Hi must be Terry. I'm sorry I've been hiding, honey, but this dinner was tricky for you. I'm doctor Sheila gamble his wife. Come on, seriously, who is that his old
lady? Sweetie? It's a workstation. It can you come in here dressed like a hobo. It's distracted. I know you're working. I'm so sorry. Come on, seriously, come on, what who is that? Stel feel Ball and Jane get over here? Not right now? Okay, look they're not all first round picks. Okay, come on, are you gonna tell me who that is? Are you really Alan's wife? Mhm? I know people are shocked because he's Episcopalian and I'm Catholic, but somehow it works.
Are you gonna change? I already did. It's no big deal. You look really, really nice, Terry. You don't have to be polite. Okay, she looks kind of shitty. I don't speak to her like that. Alan. Look, if I put that in my Cosmo Fashion app, you probably get a D minus. Alan and his apps, he loves him. You know, he's designed three of his own. One of them. Can tell him one of them. You can take a pitch of anybody's face and I'll tell you what the back of his head looks like. Faceback,
face back. Got some horrible reviews coming out of the gate. It's gonna hit, it's gonna catch me. Why are you with Alan? I mean, that's not what I meant. I meant um. How did you guys meet? It's a really typical how we met story, Terry, You're gonna be bored by it. I was a dancer for the Knicks while finishing my residency at Columbia Hospital. Alan came into the ear with poison ivy on his rectum. Needless to say, I fell for him immediately. It's funny.
It's it's like a scene from that one movie always forget the name of it with Meg Ryan. Yes, I don't remember a moving with Meg Ryan meets a guy with poison ivy business. I'll think of it. I'll think of it. So what about you, Terry? Do you have a girl? I did? Yeah, I'm supposed to get married, but she backed down. It's complicated, Terry shot Derek Jeter, shut up, Alan, this is before That's okay. Ah, she's got mail. That's the name
of it. That's it, honey. But Tom, thanks right, and Meg Ry right, he didn't have poison ivy ask Yeah, yeah, way up there. Well, Terry can't thank you enough for coming by. What a what a wonderful, lovely evening. Thank you so so nice, my pleasure. Thank you. Remember all I ask of you is you don't let him get hurt. She tells me that every day before I leave. Yep I do. I come downstairs and I make him as fresh cut strawberries and I say, listen, my little sugar balls, whatever you do today,
you just don't get hurt every morning. And then I show him my breast and I say, these these are waiting for you when you get back home. You know, Terry, they're they're not the biggest breast he's ever seen, but man, not by a long shirkey. And they are firm, and they are yours. They're a nice lady. Thank you for coming. Detectives, Hoych and gamble. Detectives, Hoych and gamble over, I found your red priests right. I was trying to vote for Ralph Nader. Come
on, okay, sugar balls, list enough. It's gonna be fingerprints in that car, and tomorrow I'm gonna run those fingerprints through the system. If we get a hit, this case is gonna eat a faster than a junkie spoon. You do one thing when you wake up tomorrow. Bring it, thank you, Oh go bring it good night, good night, Thank you, Sheila. Bye Terry, by Sheila. I'll never forget tonight. Bye Terry. All right, whatever, go inside bay, Sheila. We'll be
right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the shows. And it's hysterical because one of them at any moment is aware of what's happening around him without having the complete answer of what to do about it. One of the things I wanted to talk about too is going back through the
history um and talking about somebody like Buster Keaton. So for him, he's always been kind of an example for me of um, somebody for whom like for example, Uh, you know what happened with the Silent Films is he was hugely popular up there with chaplain and everything. In the moment he was
asked to speak, it changed the dynamic of his comedy. Well, it can't be the great Stone face and speak at the same time, right, So I was curious about if you you know, went into any sort of thing like that, that people have to be in the right kind of comedy
for their kind of personality or whatever. Uh, Well, we we do talk about the history of comedy, just in terms, just in terms of the development of Western comedy that comes from these are typical characters that that you know was uh kind of codified in the commedia, but really goes back all the way to the Greeks, uh where the the the new Greek comedy was all about our typical characters, cowardly braggett soldiers, lectures old men or miserly
old men. And you see you see these characters in Shakespeare, you see them in more year, you see them on sitcoms. Who's the idiot, who's the the wise cracker, who's the um the uh, the the space kidet. I mean that's I've just described friends. Uh. So so what you what you wanted, what you what you want to know is that is that these are typical characters appear and reappear and reappear in in dozens of movies. Uh. And they they they're there for a reason because those they embody
certain aspects of the human condition, uh personified. And it's a good idea to have a good mix of them. Do you need all of all of the different character types? No? But uh, when I read scripts sometimes I'll say you have three three best friends. You really need three best friends and they're all exactly the same. Maybe maybe one should be uh different? Um, or maybe they should maybe they should be different? For instance, Uh, here's here's a we do a comic premise exercise where where we have
h we break people up into groups and they work on comic premises. So let me give you a premise. Um, it's not a great movie, but this is something that actually that a group actually came up with. Um. So here's the premise of this comedy movie. Uh. A college football team discovers that the only time that they can win is when they get the nerd laid. Now that's already a good start for a premise because it made you giggle. So tell me who's in this movie. Well, you've got
the jock, You've got the best friend. Excuse me? What position is the jock? Quarterback? I guess quarterback. Who are his friends on the team? You got the big fat guy, you got the lineman. Okay, you got the lineman. Who else? See? But I don't know anything about football. You're you're you're already there. Okay, you have the lineman, and who else should be there? Uh? One of his friends is a big fat guy. Who's the who's the other friend? Gotta have
the skinny guy that okay, the skinny guy guy? Okay? Who? So you don't know anything by football, but but the uh the team can only win when they get the nerd late. So who else needs to be there? Well, you got your nerd. You're the nerd. Okay. You gotta have the most attractive girl in the school girl And what what position? What what does she do? Uh? He cheerleader of course, cheerleader. And then who's the who's the uh? Then there's a coach, right
okay? Sure? Okay? Uh? And how is the cheerleader uh connected to the coach? Uh? Daughter? Daughter? Okay? Because one of the things that Molier teaches us is that comedy's a closed universe because the old guy who's wandering around Enact one always turns out to be the uncle of the two orphans in Act five. So you have the quarterback, the linebacker,
the wide receiver. That's the skinny guy, the nerd, the cheerleader, the coach okay nerd Steve Correll, quarterback, Paul Rutt line big lineman, Seth Roken, um, skinny guy, Rominey Malco cheerleader, a young Catherine Keyner coach James, you've just given me the cast, a forty year old virgin. There's a reason why these these these are typical characters appear and reappear and reappear because they tell stories. You can tell any story you want if
you have all the right characters there. That was pretty mind blowing. I like that. That was our Ted talk moment for the conversation. Well Tom Ted tell Ted I applied to Ted. They haven't gotten I thought it would be a great Ted talk. Well they listen to this, so you know, just just wait, it'll happen. So Ted listens as well as the French. Yes, and Rob Schneider and Rob Shire Rob, I love you,
copy guy. That was the best thing on snlka um So I want to talk for a second also about Ben Stiller, because you mentioned Ben Stiller in your your book um and one of the things that book I I have skimmed the book. Unfortunately, my um my credit card got had some problems at Amazon, so I had to go back. I can change some things and then buy it again. And then I was kind of the clock was
against me. So I'm gonna yeah, but I do. A lot of my stuff is from other podcasts and from you know, YouTube, so luckily there's a wealth of knowledge out there. Okay, So if any of my questions sound exactly the same as some other people, oh no, no, I don't. I don't think I ever insulted as many people on other podcasts as I have on yours. I am honored. Thank you. Well. I wanted to talk about Ben Stiller for a second because you you know,
you'd talk about him. And one of the things that I remember when Ben was, you know, my buddy Ben first kind of was getting popularity, was that the kind of comedy that he was doing was so like, not um obvious. I guess you could say, it was just he was so much the character and so uncomfortable and so kind of, you know, different than what I had seen before. And there have probably been other people who have done that kind of comedy, you know, like there's something about Mary
and stuff like that. But I just, for some reason that just stayed in my mind. Is that being you know, why is that funny? Why is what he's doing funny? And you know why is just his nervousness or his like being in that situation making me laugh. And I had never really felt like that with anybody else, you know what I mean? Well, I think because one of the things that he does well. Now, he's a smart guy, right, I mean, he had his own sketch
show on Fox when he was in his twenties. He's a smart guy. But he lets himself be seen as less than smart very well. In There's something about Mary. He's about to go on a date with Mary, and Chris Elliot's telling him, have you, you know, pulled pulled the pud? Have you you know, spanked the monkey? Uh? Have you flogged the dolphin? And and rather than Ben still are going what are you talking about? He goes, huh huh and what are great comedy lines? Because
they see something they're just not quite sure what they're seeing. Uh. And he lets himself be talked into, you know, uh, masturbating just just before the date. Uh. And and it's it's ridiculous, it's you know, it's it's gross out humor. But there's something very vulnerable and uh and and and not in charge uh that that I think appeals to all of us because that's how we feel, we feel that we're not completely in charge. That we're uh that we're less than, and he embodies less than in a
very unforced way. He doesn't pretend to be less than, he just is. There's one of my favorite moments in There's Something About Mary is when they do the flashback and he's about to ask take Mary out to the prom, and he's got these great braces on and he's wearing this tope tuxedo. She goes to the door and David Keith, oh I believe is playing the dad comes out and David Keith is an African American. Mary, of course is
Cameron Diaz, who's not African American. So she, you know, Ben Stiller looks at David Keith, looks up at the door number, Am I in the right place? Usually that gets a laugh just by not being sure. And then David Keith says, she's already gone to the gone to the problem with woogie, and he goes woogie, Yeah, woogie. And then and you can't really see this over a podcast, but I'm kind of grinning
sadly and going okay. And I usually when I do my workshops, by the way, I have a workshop coming up at the end of January, which we'll talk about hopefully at the end of the podcast, I usually freeze frame on that we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And I say, if the movie ended, there, hasn't he broken your heart? That's the essence of comedy is The essence of comedy is not to pretend that there's no pain. It's all silliness.
The essence of comedy is We're always in pain. Life is a painful, painful deal. How are we going to deal with it? What are we going to do? The comedian is the courageous person who gets up in front of a group of strangers and admits to being human and and basically says, you know, gives us shrug and says, you'll live. It's tough, you get kicked, but you'll live. And that's a very life affirming
way of looking at the world. So if that was written as a drama and not a comedy, well, if it was written as a drama, he wouldn't be an idiot, he would know more. He would be good looking, he would be wearing braces. Like I said, if it was a drama, he would be something that we would aspire to as opposed to something who we can recognize as us. Look at the movie that I always saw, The Maze Runner or The Virgin. Those kids are gorgeous, you
know. And in the Apocalypse, are we all going to look that good? I mean, of course, am I going to have tapped teeth? You know? In a dystopian future? I wish, you know, that would be great. Only the good looking survive. One of my favorite Ben Stiller performances is in Tropic Thunder Oh, one of my favorite movies, when he is you know, captured and they make him reenact his character simple Jack. Simple Jack. That to me is like the pinnacle of his career.
But the moment that I love is when he and Robert Downey have the conversation about why he didn't get the oscar. Yeah, exactly. You know, there were times when I was doing Jack that I actually felt retarded, like really retarded it. I mean it bush my teeth retarded, I rode bust retarded in a weird way. I had to sort of just free myself up to believe that it was okay to be stupid or dumb, to be a morong Yeah, to be moronical, exactly, to be a moron an imbecile.
Yeah, doctor, dumbest motherfucker to devil live. When I was playing the character Wendy was secure. Yeah, I mean as Jack, definitely Jack, stupid ass Jack trying to come back from that. In a weird way. It was almost like I had to sort of fool my mind into believing that it wasn't retarded, And by the end of the whole thing, I was like, wait a minute, you know, I flushed so much out,
How am I gonna jump started up again? It's just like, yeah, yeah, right, he was foughting in bathtubs and laughing the asso. Yeah yeah, yeah. But simple Jack thought he was, or rather didn't think it was retarded. So he can't afford to play retarded. Being a smart actor playing a guy who ain't smart but thinks he is. That's tricky, tricky. It's not working for Mercury. It's high science. Man, it's odd for him. Yeah, you're an artist, that's what we do,
right, Yeah. Yeah, hats off for going there especially. No, nothing Academy is about that ship m about what they're serious. They don't know. Everybody knows. You never go full retarded. What do you mean? Check it out? Dustin Hoffman ray Man Luke retarded at retarded, not retarded, can't two picks to your cards artistic shop. Not retarded, ain't a time of hands for us? Gump slow, Yes, retarded. Maybe he braced his owners bed, but he chomed to pass off next to and
they want to pin pong competition that he retarded. He was goddamn war hero. You know what, he retired war heroes? You full return man, never go full return. You don't buy it, Yeah, Sean pent two thousand one. I am saying no when full retire. And and that's such a beautiful moment because it's the first moment in the film where they're really just relating to each other and they're connecting, and they're not they've let their their
rivalries go. And and Robert Downey goes, you don't know. You can't go full Todd. You went full time. You can't go half Todd. You can't go full Todd. It's great, great, I mean, those those human, simple human moments where people share what makes them vulnerable, what makes them silly, what makes them lost, what makes them human? And and and that's that's why in terms of straight line wavy line, uh, you you know, Mark is funny. But you can't have Mark without mindate
mh. You to have a human being in the equation at every moment. So even your silliest character can have a moment where they're human and they're having a human experience. Well, everybody else is acting crazy around them. And that's why the division of funny guy in straight Man is incorrect, because everybody gets to has a chance to be funny. Everybody has a chance to be you know, the same one. Well, tell me if if you had
the same feeling as I did. But watching that, if you've got Robert Downey Jr. You've got Ben Stiller, and then you've got Jack Black, and Jack Black, to me, like most of the stuff that he did in the film kind of fell flat. Though I don't know how you you kind of perceived that, but it just seemed like one more person there that like didn't necessarily like add to it. I don't know, Well, I
mean, I can see that point of view. I'm not going to argue that he's the best thing in the film, but he's there because you needed a primal character. Again, we go we go back to to our typical characters, the archetypes, the comedia. You have your clever, tricky servant that's Robert Downey Junior. Uh. You have your nerdy guy that's Jay Barrichelle. You have your idiot that's uh, or your fool. Yeah, that's that's Ben Stiller. Uh. Then you have your primal character, you know,
and he's got he's got primal needs. I need, I need my drugs, um uh and uh. And out of that mix comes comes the comes this disjointed, uh dysfunctional family that all comedy aspires to. All comedy, especially tele comedy, aspires to create dysfunct large, dysfunctional families that that we can relate to and in some way uh enjoy being with because they remind us of our dysfunctional families, only we don't have to be with them that much. So So yeah, so's is Jack Black? You know? Is
that Oscar Oscar nominated performance? I'm not sure, but I see the I see the use for him because you need that unbridled energy. Now is that unbridled energy the best it could be? I don't know. I wasn't crazy about the about the the blonde buzzcut, um, but um, you know, I mean I was just wondering if there was something we were not available, right, I mean that would be that would be John Belushi or John Candy or Chris Farley. That would be their role. That's what they would
be there for. And maybe they would have brought a little bit more what I call the Shemp factor, you know. So Shemp was the stooge that made you care. So that's what John Candy and Chris Farley would do. They would make you care. And Jack Black, I guess, just make you care that much because Jack Black, if if I'm going to analyze it from your point of view, Jack Black gave was too much a performance that he was outside of as opposed to owning it. He wasn't sharing his addiction.
He was making this character's addiction the focus. And when you distance yourself from your character and you distance yourself from the audience, there's that distancing factor that doesn't work for some people. In five hundred BC, the first comedy written, the actor comes out and talks to the audience directly in a different way than they did in Greek Tragedy. There's a connection that comics make with their audience. It's an actor centric art and it's about telling the truth about
what's happening right in front of all of us. I'm an actor, I'm on stage, you're watching me. Let's go, and so there's truth there, and so you might be you might be reacting to the fact that he wasn't as connected and as truthful as the other actors. That's my guess. But it didn't bother me as much. But I can see from your point of taking a look from your perspective, I can see what you're talking about. Yeah, I mean, it just kind of fell flat sometimes I'm going
to he just was he fucking sucked? Okay, I mean it's kind of like late Jerry Lewis, like you're saying, it just felt like a performance, you know. Anyway, Right, I'll get off that all right. Um, we're at about an hour. I wanted to make sure that you discuss the things that are coming up with you and how people can get in touch and sign up for your classes. Um, you want to talk about that a little bit. Uh. Yeah, I'm Libra, I'm lonely. I like long walk long walks on the beach. I'm on staff. No
no, no, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm happily married. But um, you can you can tweet met at SK comedy. That's SK comedy comedy with a C. Because I'm not a hack. I don't do that comedy k thing. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. My website is Kaplan Comedy one word dot com and you can email me at Steve at kaplan Comedy dot com. And right now, in January thirtieth and thirty first, in Los Angeles, we're having
a workshop at the Marriot Burbank and you can register for it online. And if you're in Ireland, we're going to be in Ireland in early June, London the week later. I think we're going to be in Paris in April, and we're going to be in Denver in October. And you should read my book The Hidden Tools of Comedy. We it's translated into Russian, Chinese and French. But for you for the Indie Film Academy podcast listeners, we
have it for you in English and it's available on Kindle. You can download it, but make sure that your credit card doesn't get screwed up like Jason's. And and it's also available through Amazon, and you can also buy it on our website for an autographed copy. I want to thank Jason so much for doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show
notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash tune ninety nine. Thank you so much for listening to guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasts at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.