BPS 292: The Million Dollar Mini-Movie Screenwriting Method with Chris Soth

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Enjoy today's episode with guest host Jason Buff. Today we are talking with Chris South, the author of Million Dollars Screenwriting and the Mini Movie Method, And we're going to talk a little bit later about what the mini movie method is and how you can use it to help you with your screenplays. I'm not going to go into that now, but you definitely want to stick around and learn about that. It's a way of putting your screenplay together, the

structure and everything that I had never really heard of. And Chris pretty much he is the inventor of this method of putting a movie together into these mini movies. All right, let me get to the episode. Here is Chris, So, So, what I wanted to focus on first of all is a little bit about your background in screenwriting and you know where where how you got into screenwriting? From the beginning. Sure, absolutely. I well, I guess I've been sort of a nut for a story and structure since I

was a kid. I was an undergraduate major in drama, and I started studying your plays and play structure there as well. I wanted to be an actor at the time, and I just felt like, you know, there was something better and we could we could know more about this than we had been given by Aristotle. Was kind of out there in the general knowledge pool.

And I did climb my traded actor for about ten years also of the comedian and the magician, and started writing in my own material and started using some of this story structure that I had studied to, you know, to make that material a little better. I sort of found if I was doing a six minute comedy set, because I told a little story and there was a story shaping the whole thing, I didn't have to be as funny, so where that needed funnier, and so I would do that, and I

started reading up on that and wrote a novel. I worked on cruise ships actually, and I was doing those comedy acts there and I had play a free time. So I wrote a novel with that free time. And then I wrote the screenplay at that novel and after that, you know, the bug had bitten me and I had to know everything about screenwriting, started reading all the books. At that time there were about three of them, and

now, of course there are three hundred. And I come sort of from an academic family, and if you want to do something in my family by and largely get a school for it. My dad's a college professor. So I went back to school, University of Southern California Film School, and that's where I found a far better structure method which they call sequencing there, which I use and have you know, studied and gone in depth with ever since,

and sort of heightened and refined to the mini movie method. I was very lucky at USC that I wrote a screenplay there that was my thesis. I am a graduate screenwriting program and that's old for three quarters of a million dollars, and that became a movie called fire Stool. So, you know, very fortunate to you know, have one of those big splashy specs sales

on the front page of Brian Hollywood Requarter the next day. Very fortunately get the movie made, and lucky enough to fly my trade in Hollywood ever since, and have kind of always taught as well. I mentioned I come from an academic background and started teaching at USC shortly after I left start at the usday Light Extension. And what I found was outside of USC, people were not getting this method, this better way of breaking stories down to you know,

to sort of givous the overview of the method. Rather than three acts, which is taken from playwriting, the mini movie method breaks a story down or a screenplay down into eight mini movies. So if we take Peter that two hour time pray of you know, one hundred and twenty minutes, we have eight sixteen minutes chapters or eight mini movies that all add up to the

story of the movie. And maybe as I say this, you're thinking of movies you've seen, or you can remember some movies you've seen where you felt like, you know, do a certain visual queue or music queue that you've been given by the director of the film makers. Oh, something has ended, everything's changed now and something new is beginning. Right though, at the end of back two, you know the cops partner will be killed and uh, you know he'll look at this, you know, into the sky and

holler no, righting. We know that law on that way right, and the camera ends up into that God shock because after he's talking to God, he say, no, God, I dare you do this? Right? Well, a generally around the end of back two or I would call him in the movie sick. And it's kind of said, you know, one chapter is ended and another chapter is beginning, and the music will smell uh

two, But that they're actually eight of those. And good stories have a structure that um of eight different tensions of breaking the main tension the story down to eight different tensions each days on a hope and fear on which they know the outcome of the main story will rely. And once you've had that breakthrough, it becomes much simpler. I mean, it's never easy to write a story, but let's say this is about eight times easier. Uh That that

really helps you out. So that kind of as you were saying, you know, people specialize in different areas. That was where I found the need and the niche work that We'll wait a minute, this isn't the industry standard. Everybody should be doing this so much simpler, so much easier. Um, you know, why aren't all the screen letting books written about this? Methu I don't know how much you know you gaple one screen letting or your

listeners too. I know it's hard to all kinds of film this year, but if you want to tell a story that is going to help you. Um, you know, if you've ever heard, you know, act two. If you read your for a screen letting book in token you write thirty pages, that's hard enough, and you've got that landmark of the acts one turning towards right. And now your reward for that is you get to like six more without any sort of landmarks to guide you on your way. Uh,

you know that that's a nightmare. And I think everybody knows that act two is where good screenplays go to die, right you know? Yeah, I mean how many movies have a promising start and kind of falter in the second act? I can tell you, you know, for every movie that does that, there are a thousand screenplays and didn't make it right and and

died there in the second act. And this is the way, you know, this is a great way to kind of keep your your second act popping right and really have a tension and a build and you build you a really strong climact and have a little mini climactors and mini movies along the way as each tension resolve and in terms, So now do you do you chart that in some sort of way where you, you know, say, okay, the first mini movie needs this, needs to happen, the second mini movie

this. You know, do you give a old guideline of the things that need to happen along the way? Oh? Yeah, absolutely. I mean we are after you know, hundreds of years of stories and over a hundred years of movies. Tally thousands of years of stories and about one hundred plus

years of movies. We can kind of figure this out and the method actually trumps from the fact, and we sort of it starts to emerge because I would argue good stories always did this kind of by accident, and I think that you know, what's making them good starts to emerge when you know, by serendipity, U film starts to be shot on reels and a real hole, you know, pretty close to fifteen minutes the film, and the early filmmakers, as they develop what becomes a modern day feature film, you know,

find an advantageous to plot out a chapter per reel. Right, So I don't think you know, Sam's Goldman was ever, you know Champas and Arson, we have problem in act too. He wouldn't have known what an act was. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I don't think Ben Heckt in the golden age of Hollywood was saying that either. I think he was saying, we've got

to fix the fifth wheel. So there's absolutely attempt with a pattern that you know, between me and you know, Joseph Campbell and you know a lot of other people who have studied stories in the folklore, we can say many movie one is very typically going to do this. Many we choose and to typically do this, and you can identify it sort of a broad tumeric way,

mainly because of you know where it is on the time one. Right, if if a story is if if, if a mini movie is the beginning of the story, there are certain obligations and task it has to perform, introducing the main character, setting the main tension, showing this world things

like that. There's you can generate a checklist pretty easily likewise at the end, and then it's sort of filling in that that middle where you know things are in this Cheshire but there's a much more you know, detailed template than that that I gave in my book A million dollars screen running the mini movie method. That is actually the more Amazon relatively recently to only be able to

get from my website at ten times time. So I advise everybody Amazon, um and and you can identify those kind of broadly and cherically, and then you can sort of separate them by genre too. You can say, okay, well, are they in a monster movie. This is kind of a thing that starts to be happening. It starts in we see in many movie.

One can come up with different patterns as well. Likewise in a love story, right, uh those those free There's three famous Hollywood sentences boy meets girl, right, that tends to be the end of anu we want boy loses girl. We all kind of know that the end of that too, that's heart break occurs, and then boy jets girl will be somewhere there in the third act the movie seven or eight. So you know there's a plot

points they're talking about what they ploy Girl jets girl, right. Uh So, so yeah, there is is a general pattern and it breaks down a genre. And then you know, in my mentorship program that that springs by mentor dot com seeing through to check it out. I will guide you the deptop through just you know the genre of story that you're doing, not just what all stories do, but what your specific stories do. I feel like that's that's what we all have to master. We oft to master the story

in general. Then the dictates the genre, and then we have to find what our own unique stories to tell and howden's best told, because that's what's going to differentiate it from all the other stories of the genre and all the

other stories in the world. Right right now, when I was wondering if you could do just to give an example of the eight mini movies in action, Um, is there a movie in particular that you use to demonstrate those eight mini movies just so that people can have an idea of how it breaks

down. Yeah, I don't know that I have one absolutely by heart and by memory, but I know, uh, you know the notes I'll go to when I when I'm asked this question, and I probably could get you one of these two movies entirely from memory and give you all eight of the mini movie. But people are hearing this are saying, well, now, that's that's interesting. I'd like to see that in action of what movies I

look at. Um. Absolutely, the movie seven. When I first heard, uh that conceit, you know, I was in It was in my second year of grad school at the time, and I interviewed Arnold Copeleson, who had bought the script, and he said, oh, it's about a serial killer who is killing people, uh in you know, in the mode of the deadly sins, right, And I immediately knew, oh, well, that's one deadly sin for many movies, right right, and it it

almost is. It's it's a little more sophisticated MAP. But once in a while on I had, you know, like an idea like that where there's sort of a number, you know, right in the concept that is, you know, very close to seven or eight, and and I say or six, And I say, well, okay, now now the six, I say, now my story three quarters outlines, right, that's story the

seven, seven eighths of the way two outlos. Uh. It's slightly different than map, and that I can I mean, I I don't have it my memory so much that I can say, you know, many movies three is uh lust right, Um, well, that's a pretty good jazz actually

U right, um so it's seven really. Six of the mini movie of seven are dictated by are all sort of short films of leading up to a ghastly tableau where in which someone has been killed that is staged to look look like a declining of one of the deadly sins um that happened six of the of the eton and it is a full um eight mini movie structure. Uh. They just they knock going off right away in the free credit frequency of the first scene is brad Kitten mortars even showing up at one of these,

So now now they're sticks left. Maybe that mini movie ends with another one. Uh. And then in the to minuvie four that's all about chasing the killer. They're they're on the track of the killer there and he shows up at the police station, his fingerprints cut off in safety as a chiller they called John Joe. Uh and then he escaped down that's going to movie before so uh so two of them are knocked off by by bring two in the movie one and one is one is eliminated by in the movie four and the

other six each steven start in a mini movie. So if I would if I had that brilliant idea, I would just say, okay, well this is the Lust mini movie, and that is the slowth in mini movie,

and this is the Glutton movie. Um, and I would you let the attention to find that and I would let that scene means view the pages I was writing, and seven is very well written and doesn't appear to us as epicomic at all, because it's all sort of all those pearls are hung on the string um touching one serial killer who is perpetrated all of these acts, right, and we learning a little more about game each time. So there's a great example. A very good movie and a very good screenplay, but

sold the respect using this method. And I feel like you have sort of a little laugh of recognition where I said that, Uh, they like, oh of course, and but we don't experience you know, the movie that way and go, oh, well this is just spordilaic Uh. Oh my job is cool and park at twisty right. Uh. Likewise, a winner of Best Picture and Best Screenplay. I'm probably a little old living more.

I love it from my childhood. Its divisional deVie. Uh. Seven Oscars swept the Oscars that year, A great period con man movie called The Sting. So in the Sting, at least through the second act, um title cards come up that give a title to each mini vie sou. So there in that all important second act, I think it actually goes into the third act too. No, I know, I could be wrong about that. Um. So that second act is chaptered very specifically with tensions that are almost

exactly fifteen minutes long. So, uh, you'll really see it there, and you'll see it in the second act where it's so important that things don't get static, that you haven't been trying to resolve the same tensions too long, that it is evolved a little bit, or the stakes have whistle that your you know, your heroes are now trying to do something different to solve

the problem. Um. The second act is where you know, you know, as an audience or a reader, which can kind of look at a lot saying looking kind of be statics for a long time, nothing really changes here. Let's let's you know, quicken the pace guy. Um So they're all chaptered quite quite specifically. Uh. And it's a great one treat for you to see a study because hey screens best picture, right. Um So I could go into more detail about that, and I could picture to you

by Numary. I don't know if it's you know, our best, our best possible study here, but uh, it's you know, it's the go go take a look at yourself. You're the um. Just quickly at the end of the year, we won. The Robert Redford character once or Gange against the gangster shield his combat partner. At the end of two he enlist the Paul Newman character to help him. Now that's what you've probably been taught to call act you want and you're demitted to. Uh, they're going to

pull the big comp on the gangster. Uh. And to do that they, I think Paul Newman says it in the first act. We've got to set the hook so we can tell them the tale that we can pull the wire and uh, and that'll sting it right. And those are the four title cards. They are the hook, the tail, the wire, and the state will be back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Um, and they're all sort of mine cons they have to pull along the way to pull off the big con, which it is ultimately

the sting into which the movie takes the title. So the con and you know, getting the money from the mark is called the sting, and that's the tension. The way up there in MINII seven is a break up to break the third act um I'll make I'll just I just said one and two or what you've heard called the first act these three to four or five and six. There is what is called the second act ends seven and agor what

you've heard called the third act. So you'll see, you know, we divide this by fifteen, you know, one hundred and twenty pages or minutes by fifteen. You'll see that. You know, two of my plotting sort of ones you're familiar at the end of act two, at the end of that, at the end of actual one, in the inter BacT two. Uh so, uh you know, the tension of the hook is they got to hook the marking who wants to be in you know, uh in this con that she will actually think he's a con man. Uh So they got

to set the hook in you know the fish. Uh. There, and our ship is we hope they can we fear that the whole calm be blown because it will be along it's going off. So does that make sense? And you know just and I didn't an exercise within seven to actually recommend this to my clients and my students and anybody out here who you know, wants to use the mini movie weapons. It's a good exercise to title to your mini movie. You're gonna title the movie. Uh, you know your movie

will have a title. Why not give your mini movie a title? So I said, you know, I'd call that the the Pride, uh mini movie right, uh, you know for anvie called Pride. Except they don't have title. Clients come up from seven, right, Uh, but they do. They literally do in the thing, you know, the great great Scott chops on Marvin Hamler's score will come up, and the title card the sort of Norman rock wellish image from the Coming when the Few will will come

up and it will play the hook. Right. It really, you know creates in your mind as when you returning a page you came through chapter five and it's a title. Um, you know if it creates sort of a preparation the viewer's mind that oh, we'll coming to something new, okay, so something has ended, something new beginning. Now you know that's not going to work for every movie because of that's a stylistic wave of telling a story.

In some movies, you know, you want to go by so fast and not have that quaint if the new chapter sort of feel that we experienced them seamlessly. Kind it's a little harder to see these plot points and new turns intention but they are there. They are none there and they're working to support. Now, what is your process when you're creating a screenplay? How far do you go with um outlining and creating somewhat of a blueprint before you

actually get into the you know, the writing phase. You know, it depends, and it is anywhere from absolutely outlined to you know where writing the screenplay is an afterthought to jumping in having one eight sentence out one Uh yeah, and that's uh, you know, you know it's I keep using at number eight. Right, and there are eight mini movies. So I wrote Firestorm, the you know, the screenplay that sold for requarters a million dollars

that they bee over a million year with a long haul. Uh, just with those eight sentences and what they were was just a turning point I would jot down to end each mini movie. Right, So, uh, now do I outline and more detail than that? I do? What I might do it in process. So if I so, it kind of depends on the work situation I'm in and and sort of my mood. If I can't wait to get right in, I might you know, brainstorm there's a turning

point and dive in. If I'm working with a studio or other producers or a collaborator, and it's a good idea that we all are on the same page. Uh, and understand you know that what the story is going to be. I mean there, you know, in a want of detail, I might create a treatment that is quite detailed, the most I would ever create what being paid point? Is it again? Eight page treatment? And it will shock you to when that's one page for any movie? Right?

Um? So uh and you know my collaborator who you know through my role points, you know, I'll points by anybody. I liked it with the many movie method. But when I'm working with a client, um, you know, it's sort of up to them. Uh. And I'll say, listen, you can bring in an outline or you know, uh, let's do let's do our brain, sir. But we've come up to the eight turning points of the mini movie. And what um, and I might say next week, blow each of those those sentences up and do a paragraph.

Uh, and then maybe blow each paragraph up and do a page. Uh. And then we're going to take each of those you know, pages of pros written and treatment style, and we're going to blow the weapon of at ten to fifteen page and with the screen set. That's a very typical process

for me. Now, when I'm running myself, as I said, I might just jot down the turney all in so you know what, and it's it would be kind of like you just heard me do for this two, for this pain, at the end of the day one, his partner is killed. If the end of ady the two he gets a new partner at the end of the NEWE three, he'd set the hook right now. I'll know what that means. I'm all strolled on the back of an envelope somewhere. Uh. And then I might actually start writing description, but I will

do more outlining. It's just sort of in processing or will in process, which means, you know, when I get to that mini movie that wasn't really very full in my mind, I guess very often enough movie five, I guess I'm a good point. I'm always that you know which is the end of the four through the map right all the strong good point five to me, sometimes the most amorphic new movie than that that can happen back to, which is you know one of those places its intis got to die.

And I I'll outline the mini movie in more detail, and that might start with be a brainstorming a list of highlight which would be trouble list of seeing. I might actually, if I'm really sort of up against it night, I'll sort of break the many movie down into microvis which means, you know, these eight steps of structure that I have are kind of the structure of everything. If you're going to work on attention in fifteen in it, uh,

the steps are going to be the thing. If smaller, uh, then as if you're working not over one hundred and twenty games right on, the ratio will be the thing. So about you know, one quarter of the script will be you know, the beginning, and then we'll reach the end of the beginning of that whole of the day. True, because that's kind of the golden meaning or ratio of the storytelling or drawing. So I might then outline further. But to me, those eight turning points are key.

Um. The analogy of the easing resently is it's kind of like having a map quest for the Jersey you go on on your screen plight. Uh. You know your your screen plays going to have eight turning point. Maybe a map quest has eight turns. Right, appen to live in San Diego County. If I'm driving up to LA, I'm probably gonna go on the five, And depending on where I'm gonna go in La, I'm asking to

get off the five at some point. I kind of don't care, at least at the beginning and even on most of the drive how long I'm on the five, if that's going to be seventy miles or something like that, I care about that turn. Uh. You know my offering because I know I'm going there, and I know that I can figure out the drive that's

going to be kind of a straight shot. Uh. Um, So I you know, and when whenever we used to give directions, if you come from an age before math test, it was always you know, uh, you keep going on this road and take her right off. You know, we were very rarely mentioned how long it's going to be might say a long time, right, uh, you know, or going to be a a quick left. But you know, the turn defined the shape and it's turn define the joke. And when I have those, I really know the shape

of my story. I can still in the details h that along along the purple line of the blue line of map quests or Google maps as I got. Now, do you have any exercises once you have your outline and everything? Do you just rely upon the writing process for creativity to come out? Do you have any tricks for kind of like making putting yourself into a creative mode or is it just something that comes out as you're writing. Well, you know one of my favorite closes from Stravinsky and it and it is the

news will only visit when she sees you are hard at work. Um, and you know I working hard and uh and uh and and doing the work. If you expect that bolt from the blue to strike, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I think it will come sort of when you're in the zone, or you'll

cross over into the zone when you are doing the hard work. But you know, the views is sickle, and sometimes that hard work does not you know, cause or descend from heaven and I think, you know, having a craft and having a series of best practices and principles that you can reliably put into twenty is the core and the very base of what is called professionals.

You know the story is going to be very good or you know, quite good, because you know these principles and you have an aesthetic and you know what good it is, and then you know the views only has to

come and can do a little bit to do crossover to great maybe. And and I think if you actually do study the great movie, even if that writer did have that bolt from the blue, uh, that that gave them that brilliant idea, and they they weren't, you know, assiduously practicing the craft and you know, doing the grut work that it takes to do that. After they have you can dissect it. And by and large, I think a lot more than people are willing to admit in the arts dissected and

see what makes it great and duplicate it in your own work. And that's that's why I think movies and UH and stories and television are getting better and better hum partially by the sheer volume that we have, partially by the technology that allows us to generate more multiple drafts, faster and easier. Uh and

uh uh and just a better understanding of what makes it good. There is you know, working against that all of the fact that you know, once once a great story has been told, you can't really tell it exactly that way again there come up with a really you know, reinvention, or let it be your inspiration for something else that is also great, or you're hoping great but you know, as far as that goes, as far as you know, but you know, kind the creativity and being being in the zone.

I think of myself as a craftsman more than I do as an artist. And so to have them any movie having in the end you really study this, uh is I hate to say that's almost a way to mcguiger around about having to have h the views strike. I don't want to say not even not having to have creativity, because these are enough too. And both creativity that we study and the craft that we you know, dedicate ourselves to,

right. Uh So it is it is creativity. I mean, there's and as far as that, you know, the brainstorming that you know that you do, and you know, just trying to get yourself you know,

in a creative mode. I find hard work is the best thing. But if I'm not doing that and I want to like just get ideas and that you know you've probably heard that, uh, that victim of you know, one one percent inspiration ninety nine percent perspiration, right, Uh, having the craft and having the aesthentic and having the you know, the best principles and a hard work ethic that all fifth in the nine Uh. The one percent is that inspiration of the great idea, right, I think? And I've

um and for that, I watch a lot of movies. I read a lot of books. I do a lot of reading. I try to keep myself stimulating. You know, I a friend in a writing group, and I am you know, very intelligent people that I try to keep in my life that really and provide stimulating conversation with it. And in my own mentorship program scheamfill venture dot com. You know, I work with you know, dozens of clients who are great writers that I've always having a sigulating conversation,

you know. And lafter you have the one big idea, right that one percent of the process, you have to have a million other little great ideas too, And so you have you know other smaller one percent. You need be good idea screed this scene, you know, which is inspiration as well, and the good idea for I do this in the dam, the good idea for this plot twist, or ideally the great idea for that puntwist. But nobody you've ever seen in this wore. So you're continually challenging yourself that

way. And you know, I don't know in a way, I don't want to you mystify it, um, but I well, I do want to do asify I feel it. I feel like that were that word creativity. Uh, you know, uh, and waiting for the news to strike is sort of an ego trip. A lot of writers and other people in the arts take that and they sort of mystify it so that it can be a holy and religious experience for them. And uh, and they can, you know, maybe you put themselves a little above other people who don't have

it or don't get it right. And you know, I would much rather say, uh, let's de mystify it. You can't. You can do it, and you can find great ideas of those screenplays if you just followed these steps. Um. And you know, I you know who sold the screenplay. So it's your great million dollars. It's not magic. I'm not better than you. You you can learn the same things I learned. And uh and maybe not the screen places were a million dollars. But right one

is that is is good U or better as one that did? Uh and uh and I you know far prefer that uh to sort of the uh uh oh you know uh kind of you know, a leanism that comes with uh, you know, creativity and uh, you know what people call brilliant and inspiration. Um, you know, God has shown to favor me with his brilliant idea. Therefore, uh, you know, I'm I lord it all over all of you. He congratulates. You know, you had a good idea. You're gonna actually have about you know, a million of those had

a screenlight career, So get back to work. Um. Do you feel like deals like that still exist? I mean it seems like that's kind of like, I mean, even even for the day, it was very uh, kind of you know, bizarre and kind of unique in its own way. But it's like it seems like that kind of thing, you know, doesn't that that world of filmmaking is kind of a bygone era at this point. Unfortunately, uh, you know, they do still exist, but they are you know, as you say, we're rare back then, and they

are even more rare now. And this has happened, you know, I think in my lifetime, in my screenwriting career, if we you know, want to put our fingers on why, I would argue, you know that it's always uh, it's not even really that uh. Uh. You know, a lot of specs got bought for a lot of money and some of them turned out badly. Um. Uh you know that's that's part of it. But the truth is a movie studio just since I've been working, uh

in Hollywood, have become more corporate. So uh, you know, twentieth century Fox became part of news Ports, right, and uh, Paramount became part of the uh Summer Lips and Gigantic Muni and Colomberates. They all of the movies became used to be their own corporations and sell their own stock uh

and uh and have their own shareholders. And they got bigger and bigger and became you know, just a small part from Baston Musician Golomberates, of which they're only you know, uh four to six pound and uh and it is harder to justify to your shareholders that you bought a screenplay for a million dollars and then went and lost one hundred million dollars on the movie. Uh uh

than it is to say we thought it was going to work. It was by the writer of Harry Potter or or you know or whatever whatever else that you know, it's been successful in another media in the uh in a publishing company that are that are that arm unicn Colomber own it's the best seller over here right so uh, you know, it's a video game that our company also owns. It is based on a song that the music branch of our

of our backs municking Lombards. The studio is a small piece. Oh so that synergy Uh it is you know, kind of what has has replaced in the the odd Specs sale and the journeyman screenwriter who kind of wins the lottery. Um. So, what advice would you have for screenwriters to you know, how to get their screenplays read and how to get you know, how to try to have a career as a screenwriter. Sure, I think that you know you you want to write those baby scripts, speck screenplays and you

want to play that lottery. Uh, while at the same time you have other works in your portfolio. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show that are smaller budgets, and we'll uh go to uh to smaller conglomerates or you know, outsits that aren't conglomerates but are still profitable. So what do I mean, Well, you know, I think it might be worth everybody to uh take a look at a book called The long Tail, right. So, uh, it's sort of

about how the market is shifting. And the long tail refers to the you know, the tail at the end of a bell curve on a graph about who's making the money in a business. Right. Um. So as that graph, you know, swelled up high and we see there's paramounts of Disney and Universal making billions of dollars in the entertainment thing. Uh and as they

have become more corporatized. H And and aren't you know one hundred million dollars used to be a blockbuster, right and a studio kind of only wants to make a movie these days that they think the upside of three hundred million dollars

and that still next to click after every million part. And as they've moved out of the movies that nearly make a hundred million dollars, that has left room for us on the long tail to make movies and go to entities with our screenplay that that might be making movies will ten to forty million dollars that

that are only going to make a hundred millions. And the opportunities there where hedge funds are stepping in and other you know, conglomerates are stepping in with you know, cash liquidity, where the studios to abandon it and smaller conglomerates can move in. That's where your opportunities are. They a little harder to find. They are are you have to do a little more work, be a little better connected. You probably are on the very far end of that

same long tail. Uh is you know, uh, your friends who all want to make a movie for ten thousand dollars uh and uh and these are converstrates you can write and fund yourself and in between our you know, every every number of budgets from you know, ten thousand dollars, which I could have picked the lowest you can make a movie forward is probably not not the lioness between uh, um, everything between ten thousand and uh forty million and

uh and between the forty million and what the studios maker dose for uh. You know there there's room as well. So there are other entity defining stepping in the profitable area uh that uh, that the larger studios have abandoned. Now are you going to sell a screenplay four million dollars uh to any of those empties that will be rare at first? And I am thinking, you

know, might come back again. Um and but you know, could you make you know many more million dollars of dollars if you are a producer on such a movie and you raise the funding for a movie uh and our profit participants in a screenplay you also work but hypenated you know, uh and became a letter producer on That's what I am attempting to do. Now that's where I think, you know, my next million dollars is and I hope my next tens of millions of dollars are and a higher level of creative control and

for the film as well. So UM, and I'll say this, uh, I you know, spent many cares the writer and of course had that first lesson success clearly on. That was very exciting and caused me to write you in that genre and at that budget range here for our next ten students.

Like I'm now as excited by the creativity it takes to get the movie funds have been made as I once was by the new creative challenge a little more traditionally called the creative challenge of actually writing the scripts and deciding the events that they take place in it. Um, finding the funding for a movie, uh, you know, building or following you know, as I have amongst writers and people who want a partner and making with me has been you

know, a very h one have that breakthrough to realize these could be the same thing. These are just all just challenges that have that are begging creative solution. Once I realized that it was the same thing, I can get as excited about seeking funding person as I can for the original idea for the sh You know, the former is just a little more how should I say, out of my hands than the other view. Of course, I just have millions of dollars at my own disposing. Yet, now, how do

you how do you feel about places like ink tip and the Blacklist? And what do you have a resource that you use, for example, if you have a screenplay that you want to get out or is it just a question of trying to get it in the right producer's hands. I mean talking about strictly working as a writer. I certainly working as a writer. UM,

I recommend all of those sources. I have gotten a lot of work myself through a tip, including the movie that was made that I appeared in m and I my own experience within tip is I got a lot of work on it. I don't know that I actually listed my own scripts on because I've always had an agency manager is uh since since that first Big Spects sale, Uh to get script to uh, to get my scripts read. Um. I I do hear lots from great stuff abouts of resources. I had a

movie made that I wrote an assignment from from the Antent news letter. Uh, you know my second produced credit after Firestorm and UH. And I know a lot of people who have had their their script picked up in an addicial way the Blacklist. You know you were on on the playing field. My guess is become something very good sort with that brand and being sort of recognized

as quality. I think it should do well. I'm a little less h familiar with their business mome Um, I actually know people in extipency to them regularly, but haven't been the case with the blacklist as yes, so, but I recommend all of those resources, you know, always saying, you know, copy copy, ACTEMP tour, But you know, I am one of those resources myself. I'm much more about the craft of the screen light.

I am like the marketing. But certainly if you uh, you know, register the meter, screenplay mentor dot com, I'm going to advise you in the marketing. They help you practically query uh and coach pitching as well on the values sold multiple pitches myself. So I think these resources are a great idea. I'm you know, I'm a piece of that uh. But like anything else, they're they're a good one and they're a bad one, and you know, the bad one for you may be the great one for

me. Uh And so at all I think, you know, kind of defense. And I regard all these people you know as my colleagues and not my competition, but we're all part of, you know, the same machine that is trying to get you know, movies made and right and dot writers to own their craft and to get their work seen and and make movies and television and novel than any other media better bell, you know, as well

as being a writer of fiction myself. You know, I'm creating you know, non fiction book about book about the craft of writing, and other nonfiction materials about the craft of writing all the time, and to make the art better. And I would even like the art of creating those books. And you know, I would like there'd be better books on screenwriting and sort of

structure. And that's why you know, contribute those. I obviously think that there's a better method than it would sort of be a dominant paradigm out there. And that is my message in Natalie. Okay, well what do you think about, for example, like save the Cat and that kind of thing.

You know, I knew Blake and uh and he was a colleague and we sort of emerged on the market at the same time and kind of from the same kneed, you know, which is to say, you know, the three act structure is not um sufficient to our tast You're gonna you're gonna fall apart and act to the and uh Blake uh um. So I like

Safercat, I mean, I really like anything that makes it easier. And you know, I I recommend kind of everybody and all of my colleagues as I say to uh, you know, to too my students and say, you know, or to anybody who acts writer, and you know, you're going to read all of these books eventually along coups or writers just likely gonna have to have millions ideas and you don't know what book is going to give you the idea for a new movie, or you don't know what book is

going to which book is going to get solved the problem, Uh that you're having the screen slight. So when I have a hot project, I'm working the screen slight. I usually have a bactmnly good research in books. I would always have, you know, a stack of books that my research for the project. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and

now back to the show and the latest screenwriting book there. So I would be you know, uh, I might do my research in the morning and then my writing in the year during the day, and then uh, you know, read a little bit about the craft. But I've just been practicing all day, uh, you know, before I get to bed that night, and you know, I could you know, point to Uh, to most of the books I've bet on screenwriting and say, oh, well,

this thing that I always do that came from that book. And uh, this thing that I always say to my students or you know, one of my mentorship clients, that came from that screenwriting book. And I always say it for my version of it. If I say their versions, I say you should go look at while of the Keys book, rap of the Keys Book. I actually thing that can actually close the page number on which is uh, you know John Truty. I think that's a lot of great and

very original stuff. Uh. And save the cat as well. Um, some of my students who you know, as I said Lake I act to have lived at the same time and some of my students who read our books both around the same time. I feel like a student. You sent me a spreadsheet that lays Blake Snyder structure. Over month, we've heard me say of you know, the three act structure. You know, two of my plot lens are the end of BacT to one and Act two. It's it's

the same thing. I don't say, don't use the three act structure. I say use that and of it. And likewise I would say, you know, if you know, Blake structure, use that and mine if you know John Truty's twenty two steps, uh, you know, figure out where those are going to go as well. Uh. And you know if something from the key is helping you out lay that into your story as well. Uh. I sort of feel like, you know, you study all of this and you synthathize it, you know, maybe into your own method.

Uh. And and maybe you can write a book as well. Uh and and contribute something to the dialogue about what makes good good screenwriting and what makes good movies. So I I quite like, like if there's if there's one thing that I kind of envy with him, At least for the first couple of years when I was teaching, I always there was a lot of the fact that I would be USC glad wherever I departed from what I had learned

to USC and said something that was just my own theory. I would make a big point of saying, so like, maybe this is crazy, but I think and Blake just you know, went crazy and gave all of his blockquens, blacky backroom names that people still use them, right, and maybe part of the language. And no one's very flattering to me when someone says, oh, yes, it's in the three, particularly when it's someone I've never been right. I you know, I always felt like it reaching the

first couple of years. You know, if you if you use the term mini movie method, you've just had a conversation with me quite recently. Well, you've just read my book and now you know I will I'm putting myself out there a little more. I could email from someone I could you know, picked up putting one of the folks on Amazon and say, uh, you have been using the mini we method two years and I've never met them and never never heard of uh and uh and you and I've had some conversations

because said, oh, yes, I always used this method. And you know they're in Australia or they're in Canada and somewhere else the far reaching to the English speaking world, and you know, and I've never heard of them. Then we have never spoken that work and we've never spoken their met very no, we've never had uh. And you know, when you put yourself out there and start to reach that far uh, you know, it's it's very patterning. I feel like, yeah, I actually am I change of

the world a little bit for the better. Well do you. Um. One thing I want to talk about a little more is uh going into the movie method, the mini movie method. Um. One of the things that I wanted to talk to that we didn't talk about was the concept of creating tension. And I wanted to get your opinion on how you create tension in each of the mini movies. Okay, absolutely, um, and this is this is my ANSWER's favorite talk. I probably should lead with it. I

hope that was to the podcast. Um. You know, I actually would say, you know, you've hit upon what I think is the most important thing I teach. What I what I get complimented on the most is oh, this jets beat through the second act. That's nothing else right now? Now, it's you know, four little fifteen page Steffs, I never know the difteen page of the way on from the major attorney for it. And that's so much better than the sixty pages away right, um, department.

Uh so what is a tension? Okay, attension is going to defined by I'll even back this up a little more and I will I will say that I believe Stinging toward his right book the Pleasure Principle, when he said that all pleasure is as the least of attension. So pleasure comes from tension reduction. If you get a massage and they're loving your shoulder something to say, a tense that feels good? Why because the attension is being relieved. Uh.

If you take a nap, you know you've go's intension. If you're tired and cranky, Uh, that's you're leaving that sative of exhaustion. Uh. These are Ford's example coming up here. If you go to the bathroom, that relieves at tension of a full bladder. About of course, you know, the physical act of love is a build up, and to build up and a field up in the release of sexual attension. Right, So if we like anything, it means it's reducing attention in it. If we

like a story, that means it is releasing attension. So you've heard this phrase ramatic tension. Maybe you even know how important it is. Right, It's the source of all pleasure we take in drama, not the tension, but the release of it. So a story is going to build and build and build and build dramatic tension and then release it in a surprising and gratifying way. So how do we build up pottension in any Okay, here it is. Here's my magic formula for at tension. If you ask me,

this is the E equals mc squaredest story. This is the equation I we shall all relies. Tension equals hope versus. In every movie, there's something we're hoping for. You probably hurt us hear maybe you heard was called a rooting interest. We're rooting for the hero. And what does that mean.

We're rooting for him to get what he wants, probably which might just be escaping our monsters trying to kill him, which might mean the heart of the fair Maiden, which might mean, not to be sexist about it, the heart of that hunky man. Okay, So whatever they want, we're generally rooting for them to get it, and we hope they will. We fear not just that they won't, but that they will suffer great consequence in the attempt of getting so innovated the Lost Art. We really hope that Indiana Joe

gets to the Lost Art. We really fear that he shall die in his attempt to get and worse yet, if the knock will have it and they will become an undistoppable armit right, So note the stakes that are attached that help him here. Well, that's the hope of fear of the entire movie. That's that's what I would call the main attention of rated the Lost arc. Right. Likewise, each minie has at tension on which that relies. So at the end of the minu we won when the CIA if we dolss

back then coming to Indian says we need your help. We found this the word staff of Raw in the telegram. Indie say the headpiece and the staff of Braw. You take it into the maturum of Tannis in Tanis at a certain time of the day. It shows your location of the will of the souls. Well, he is that line of dialogue just the way Paul Newman does, and the sting lays out the tension of the next three new movie. The next mini movie is about him getting the headpiece and the staff rock.

We hope that he can be fear, that he shall buy in the attempt and the Nazis will get it so he gets a successful either. One after that is all about getting into the map room un detective and finding the level of the souls, and the one after that is about getting to the role of dissolier then getting the arc right. But if any of one of these goes wrong, we're hoping in the triumph in each mine. If any of them goes wrong, but the nazis going to have the arc and rule

the world. So hope and fear is your technique and it is your sure fire way to build trension in a movie. In a mini movie, I'll go, I'll go further that in a scene or in any interchange of dialogue or beat of action, with anything, every little beat of action or every line, if somebody says, must move the needle on the tension leader, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to

the show. And it's going to swing it from hope to fear, or fear to hope, or hope to fonder hope or fear to even the worst fear. And if it's not doing that, then that scene, that mini movie, or worse yet, that movie is static and doesn't have attention and is going to be boring. And that is the worst client you can commit. As they story each other on a filmmaker, am I right to be boring? So so do you go back and like check out a scene and say, Okay, this scene is it's kind of like it's okay, but

I want to add a little more conflict to it. I want to add just a little more spice. Absolutely, yes, I do that all the time. And what is that that's really running? Polishing? I mean, I think you know when you say you're rerunning that maybe kind of vague, but uh, this is by and large what you're doing, or at least you know in this phase when you're right. So of course I'll go with you and say, okay, well what else uh here will uh will make

will make this tension really top? Uh? You know, this line makes me, gives me a little hope, you know, but the next line is going or or feed of fear of action is making me fear it? But how could it give me even more fear? What could make it look like the outcome is even worse? Because we watch the story, or read a story, or go through our daily lives, we are constantly trying to

forget the future, right, and we're constantly trying to get evidence. Cheo Copy talks about this and talks about how that's an adaptive behavior, right? How why would that evolve? Right? Because the people condict the future of the best are going to survive better, uh, and are going to you know, carry their genes for this generation and are you know, going to get all the food and they're they're going to do very well. Right.

So so that adaptive behavior helps us out of and that's why stories to light us because uh, they variously stool us and get us caught into that a lot kind of happy national, happy, xtional happy and act right. So if if I give you an event that seems to point towards a very dire outcome, a fear right, uh, and then I give you anotheryone that makes it even more to the thing that is surely going to happen, and then I spring a surprise because guess what it happened. But it was ten

times worse than you thought. And I'm exceeding your worst spears at every term. Right, So that's constable what I'm asking myself, what would raise to take of this, what would make this deep worse? That's a very good

vanda or a or a focker hope. But you know the way the way the drama structure that's golden in the drama that you know, three quarters of the of the drama will be the story will be convincing as very that stuffing that happen, right, and that right stepping in usually the happy ending, stepping into the day to day about three quarters the way through, or maybe

it's the very last one. Now, talking about sorry, creating conflict, I assume that this means what you're saying is, once you at the very beginning, you need to establish what it is your protagonist wants, and therefore that's going to be something that drives you through the entire story. Is abolutely yeah, okay, right, And that that's a tension as well, right

in their desire line, you know, creates that at tension. Um. You know, I said, we're rooting for them to get what they want, right, So there's our hope that they will, our fear that they will suffer great, great consequence in the attempts, right, they'll fail and be destroyed in some way by it. Uh So uh and this this applies by the way, I mean, I'm using these broad terms that you know,

destroyed by it? Uh and you I right, Actually ventures so people kind of think, oh, well, this is the only way you apply in that genre, but absolutely not. It's you know, Uh, if we say their heart is broken, then it applies to a love story. If that is, if we define their destruction is that their heart is broken, they shall never love again because the one person they could love that they would ever meet here on this entire planet has married another. Well, there's

your love story. There's the stakes of you know, of many a romantic comedy. And you know, if you don't overliteralize me, if you sort of you know here, either literally or symbolically, at the end of these things, I'm saying, you will realize they apply to every single story you're ever going to write. And yes, you know, Um, I talk about this structurally, and I kind of see everything as structure because that characters want is really our hope. If you want something, you hope you get

it right. Uh, it's the same thing. Uh. You know, the sort of two verbs can use almost interchanges. But I think if you look in the dictionary under hope, you see want or desire as a synonym and vice versa. Right, So, uh, they're they're used interchange lens. So far as we talk about character, I think we should be called human wantings rather than human beings. That defines a character and a person so much. If you say, you know, you and I are talking about

a third party friend of ours and I say, what's he about? I think you're usually going to answer that you know what he's trying to do in his life and what he wants. UM. So that does define character for us, and that's where character and the story are so inextricably bound. Off the point, Now, how does that relate to creating a log line? Okay? Uh? You know, generally, uh, I think a long

line. This is not the template life specifically used, but I can give you my own template for log lines, you know, the defining aspect of the movie. Maybe not the sect pitch, but uh. Generally, a you know, a long line will be one sentence, the subject will be the protagonist, and it will depict what he wants. Uh. And usually have a position, my own uh uh template for log lines. Uh. You know, I have you know, a whole hour lecture that leads up

to this phrase, of which the phrase is sort of the punchline. So I hope you're we don't have time for that. I hope you will stipulate that I that I support it well and make my point. But I think that the finding aspects are a hero, a villain, and a world or a protagonist, an antagonist and a backdrop. So so if we said a m you know, uh, an archaeologist battle the Nazis to control an ancient

artifact that's raided the lost arc. Right, we can get more specific, uh, But so it would be an archaeologist battle de Nazis to retrieve the lost art of the countant. Right, So that's right in order a hero of villain of world, right, And that's rated the lost art and the other thing I will say. And the reason I think long lines are important is only one movie. It's that description. And I think that if you've got a good long line and you slapped the question what's that movie? Where

to put your long line after it? And then put a question mark at the end, there is only one answer. So, what's that movie where the poor boy? No, pardon me, all we are fraides, what's that movie where the rich girl falls in love looking poor boy on the doomed ocean liner? As everybody you know, we only have to say Titanic.

It topped everybody's head the moment I said that. Right now, I could say on the Titanic and that would be even bigger chief, right, But I didn't because I wanted to pop that movie poster and maybe that horrible song into your head, right, And you cannot help but answer that. Now, how great a tool is that for you to have as a defining essence? Did you even more heady? Here? The plutonics form of what your

story and movie is going to be? Right? That what your movie is that no other movie ever has been or will be could be defined by that sentence. And I think if you get specific about your hero, specific about your antagonist, and specific about your world or a backdrop, you'll get Um, I don't know if you were ever the movie plot generator sort of a maybe it will see it's another writer's story was selling and probably look it up

on Amazon. But it was, you know, a sort of three books and you want we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. Because it had three steps of pages that you could flip and so as you you know, flip the top one, it changes then they're too below it, right, So, and so you could change an element of a movie. You could generate movie plots with it. And they were basically laid out like that. Although you know, I was

talking about this long line temple before it existed. Uh you know, it was basically the top the top bunch of pages were a hero, the middle were a villain, and the third world world or something they were tempting to do or something like that. So I think that, you know, buy

and large is the way to generate your long line. And you know, I will make no bones about it, but you know, for a while there in through the eighties and nineties, a lot of people they made a lot of money, myself included by kind of changing the world of die Heart. Right. I firsted over the Forest Fire, right, and die Hard in a blank was a you know, a great sort of uh you know, we saw a lot of those movies and more even more scripts sold,

uh back in that day. Now, I also changed the hero, and I also changed the villain, right, But essentially it was a hostage situation, which is kind of uh you know what what die Hard is. Uh maybe one of the first two where to uh dramatize that through an entire movie, although I think it goes back to you know, movies called Desperate Hounds in the sub days that came off a season sixties, so you you know, so and the this meets that right sort of pistedly here in Hollywood.

Um. Always they're always thinking, you know, one of those three elements from this and another one or two of them from that. So yeah, you can also uh uh pitch die Hard pitched Firestorm, my my, my specs sail uh you know as die Hard in the forest fire, right, or you could pies die Hard meets backdraft. Right. So we're taking that hotage situation and we're putting in the world of fire, taking a patagon it too, you know, battles fire uh and uh and the hostage situation.

It's really the situation. So you are the world uh and combining it with the world of backdraft. This is fire. Uh. You know, um, you know I would I pitched a couple of times. I was writing in with the cliffhanger set on fire. Um and uh, you know, so one of my friends a lot of people run will be this is what happens to be pointing down around um uh this to me, you know, up the stakes eating on cliffe right click. I noticed too very well,

let's done on fire. It's done better even even more of them. So that that's you know, uh, that's long line for me. A hero and a villain and the world. Now you can say a hero battle the villain or maybe the fourth one. It is a bird implying conflict. So if you really want to get a more detailed complict U, A protagonist subject is a protagonist. The bird always implies conflict. The direct object of the sentence gives the end is the antagonist. And then there's a prepositional phrase uh,

indicating the world. So see my own movie fire Song, a smoke temper goes up against to escape convict and biggest forest fire the other STA National Park History. U is exactly the things in the hold. Now, when you're going through something, you know, when you're writting that screenplay, do you go check out die Hard and say, okay, let me get the screenplay for that and see what beats this is hitting, like what page and

things like absolutely Uh. If you know, certainly, when I was the USC and I was luck enough to have access to a screen screenplay library, I would get the strings probably read the entire first year I was at a

screenplay every single day. Uh and uh and not uh and um. And you will not surprise you at all to to know that I go through and I create a reverse engineer from what I would call a structural complate in any movie outline, right, I will check what's happening on page fifteen, on page thirty, on page forty five sixty, I'm ninety one oh five, and and what's happening you know in the last page? Uh kind? What are the terms? I get the map plus structure of that story. So

I'm i'll certainly, you know, read the screenplay. But you know I I w so many screenplays, you know that that year that I was able, I would get them, you know, not just that they were a great structural template, but I would go get them if they just had a similar character to why I was considering even a minor character, I would. You know, there have been you know, thousands, if not millions of movies, um, most of the problems that they've confronted and solved and solved

to bearing degrees of h of billions to buy somebody. You don't have to re invent the wheel every time, now, can you? You know, if you're very specifically creating a minor character that you know is very similar to a well known minor character. Can you do everything to those people be found a feeling their lines, the words no persecution, but they can be your inspiration and you can isolate principles about why that working. That did my study.

So if it was going to be similar in tone uh to what I was like, I would go read and that that was another part of my you know, Uh, I only mentioned the reading part of life, my creative process. I'll watch you know at you know, after the data's work

is done deep into the screenplay, I'll watch a similar movie too. Um. So you know, there's certain templates I find myself bringing up all the time to people like, oh, you're gonna you know, you should go make a many movie outlook and this one I do when I can, and people write these downs and collect these outlines from starting to archives as a resource for my conduc dot com. Uh. Basic instinct I think is a great

great for your detective story. And there's some some unique structural things it does, uh that have been sold them a lot and continue to inspire. Um. Three Days of the Condor is you know great for for a thriller as well? On that spying freed um and uh oh yeah, uh, Men in black is sort of uh something I mentioned a lot to people for people to study uh for their own quirky uh actually a secret organization. Uh movie. So if you see, you know, lots of things have been done

before. You're very lucky when you know when you have a really unique idea, but you're also very challenged if they're if no one has gone before you down, it's fast. So um and uh. Some movie is sort of you know, sailed by on on that and being sort of a wonner, as they used to say, one of the kind. But I think that they're the movies that we're seeing the very by and large a fault do fall into the very gratifying. I don't want to use the word formula because it's

formulaic, is uh is a negative. I don't think of that that. You know, the polio vaccine is a formula and it's great for us. You know, I need to solve a problem of not getting polio. Please give me something formulaic. So you know, I think, uh, you know, if you make what people mean when they say it's formulaic and there

and the implication is bad, it's not original. Bro. Just to make origionality part of the formula, right, So I say, you know, uh, Cliffhanger set on Fire, Well, if it was just Cliffhanger, that would be original. Combining Uh, those two elements is what brings the originality. And I would say, uh, you know, if you read my script, you would say raising the ball actually and take made that. You know that scrips worth buying that movie with making whatever the results me.

But it finally was made. So I think, you know, making sure that it's a fresh take and it's original. H. I don't know that you're necessarily going to reinvent the structure. So I did an interview with Brian Junivitch a couple of weeks ago, and one of the things that he said that I think is very similar to what you're saying is when they make a movie and he's he's a producer, Um, he says, basically, what they try to do is have eighty percent of the movie be familiar and then

twenty percent be kind of new with new ideas. So people don't want to watch movies they are one hundred percent you know, original, because they don't even know where to go with it. They want to have something that's familiar, and then they help want to have something that kind of surprises them within a template that's already kind of familiar to them. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I think

that's that's absolutely correct. Um uh, you know, and and and there are you know, very you know, very original movies that are one hundred percent of original, and I generally can't stand them because you know, they've also bought a narrative about the doors. So I mean, you know, lots lots of people you know, like uh, you know Kleani SCOTTSI, which is you know, basically you know, Philip class music with end just images from around the world. There's not a character, there's not a story

to follow. Um, you know, it's I don't even call it a movie, right Uh. But it's also filmed, so I guess we have to call you know, and it's a moving pictures, so we have to call it a movie. But that's not for me. Uh. And as a very small segment of the of the popular shoo are h going to uh watch and love that? And I think they're getting a different thing from it

then they're getting from from what we call a movie. I would almost argue that boyhood that that uh I thought was such I actually thought was good this year, but not for all the reasons why normal think a movie is good. I did think it was slow, which I think, you know, the greatest crime you can commit. And yet it did add up to something and it was such a worthy project at undertaking and exploration is to you know,

a combination of movies and living life. But I would have been happy if he won the album h you know, just to reward the dedication of those filmmakers and those people who showed up those twelve years. And it does kind of add up to something, and you know that you do kind of feel like, particularly the next Charnce um or a boy uh, it has a little something to say about life as it's being lived in nearly part of this money party people who grow up that way. Um and so but I

almost want to say, not a movie almost its own art form. So there's an example of you know, two things that are not really movie that one I don't like him. One I kind of game. Um, I don't know, you know, mister Linkletter would be a steps here to say

he's very fine to because not a movie. Um, but I think I read somewhere that he like made a comment about hating plot, you know, and I thought that was interesting that if you watch his movies, he just can't stand plot and likes to you know, have more organic kind of scenes that don't necessarily hit beats, you know. So it's just a different you know, some people can get away with that. I so so few do and and listen, I'm not going to people to again. I'm glad.

I'm glad I did. I'm glad it was done. Uh, you know, I think it's never gonna make the money the transformed it does or you know, a lot of other things. So what's like what was a Tree of Life too? Was kind of like that, you know, you know, to this day this will be telling. I have not seen a Tree of Life to this day because I just fear that I'm gonna go pretty pretty and fall asleep. Um, I don't know, maybe, I mean, uh, some people do like it, uh, you know, a sort

as Alex work goes. I love bad Lands, which was pretty you know, story driven, and I feel sort of defined a genre, you know, between it and Bonnie and Clyde that you know, uh, um, the you know, young couple on the run, pull and height uh. Um was defined by that and UM and you know seminal as a certain kind of story and there's no natural born killers about it, and a certain certain other and most some one where weeds about it, certain other stories that we've

seen. UM. But uh I and I understand you know, as a certain then the philosophy that uh that you know uh uh God lasts or doesn't even notice the tiny small thing that then trying to do and care about it. I guess that you know, mister Alex has that viewpoint. UM, and you're probably right, you know, probably it's true uh it to me, it doesn't make for the best entertainment once once you grab it one of

you, they'll see three of life probably uh. You know, I I think that you know it's better Uh that's better or less to a philosophical discussion for me to really gradic idea and not not demonstrated uh dramatically through story. UM. And you have certain ideas you know, uh having better treatment uh in other media. I guess, so let me let me change gears for a second if I can. UM. I wanted to since we're we're coming up on um an hour and a half. I want to I want to

make sure I hit a few things. UM. Now, uh, you know a lot of people that listen to this are you know, starting out as screenwriters and um, first time screenwriters are people that are struggling to to you know, write their first Um, can you talk a little bit about some of the biggest mistakes that you see when you have new students come in that are that are creating their first screenplay? Are there any common kind of

pitfalls that people run into that you see a lot? Well, you know, uh, I sort of feel like this, you know, the first step is still off from the misstep, which is uh, sort of bad idea selection for what you're going to write a movie on. And I sort of feel like there are two mistakes people make. Their one is not sufficiently

differentiated from other movies. They don't even really recognize that it's so similar it you know, it doesn't have this twenty percent in that age twenty the ratio that you know that you were talking about, Um, you're a producer prime. I would mentioning UM, and and I will speak to someone and I will say, well, how is that different from this from on film? And I won't get it good enoughing, uh, and there's this desire to cling to it because you you know, you love this idea and maybe it

even got you to be a writer. And if it did that, it was worth it? Is it? Everything made? Maybe not the other? The other is taking something that doesn't that attention to it and isn't going to be you know, a good story when you're done an idea, this is not a good idea and having that esthetic, you know, having studying that movie to know, h what you know what a good idea is because it's going to provide a great tension, to conflict and ideally yield a theme.

Um, I think it's key. I think that's that's a very common distep that only gets the actual writing, uh, you know, over directing and putting things in in the narration that uh, you know couldn't possibly be acting or dramatized or seen, you know, the things that development executives and are whether I how do I know? Uh you know, uh in the margin devent so you know the main character thinks at the time when he was three years old and went the old Fisian hole, right, you put that a

narration? You know, I've been an actor. I cannot put an expression on my faith even in the closes that shows you I'm thinking of that, right, um so? And the over directing and really having such a strong visual in your controverting that goes on, but it's doing a lot of things that jump matter story. Can you put in any sort of I mean, I know that people who are writers and directors, you know, like pt

Anderson will put camera moves and things into his shooting script. Is there is that just completely taboo to put any sort of like camera movement or I mean, can you do like angle on something or focus on there? I think it's because it's becoming less and less taboos, and as you will see more

more screenplays. I am none the I'm nonetheless I partially because I'm just an old dinosaur and I grew up saying never do it, and books that say that say never do it, and and do it over direct my my opinion on why you shouldn't do a little different thanyby else. You know, don't tell the director how a director can across all of stuff out uh, and he's going pissed off of you. My attitude is much more, at least

than in the spec scrip of the line to be read. Let's put the word camera in it, okay or angle is to jar the leader out of what you're hope, out of the flow state. They should get into such

a state leadingership that they forget that they're even leading. It should flow through them and and to put and they should so they should feel like they're flying on the wall watching these people have these experiences, and then they should so forget themselves and uh lease their their self consciousness so much so there's even for not even you're flying when there should be no wall. We'll be right back

after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And that's what you're trying to do. You syd just achieved that then state of flow with your reader. And so they so they should only realize when they

get to the script that they were even reading. A director of Zigniel calls thegree in state um and say camera that Shu say angle is to remind them they're watching you there they're being the should in scripts for a movie that will ultimately failm that actors are going to be playing these roles and to take them out of their reality. The same reason I am against we see and we hear about in the script. There's no read there are There is only the

flow of this story. You're not forget that. You are change and hearing it. H Let it flow through. That's what I want to see in the spec script now when that is changing for shooting script, I avowed the next one I will I'll probably Cabra directions in you because it seemed perfectly obvious to me that this had to be a close up than I said, you see it tear on its face? Then it wasn't. I wouldn't say you see I think I would play tears on the space. Um, you know,

Cail, I go to coded stuff like that. I've described somebody's face. It means closest. I'm trying to get you into the visual of the movie I have in my head, But I don't actually feel that we seem to be here? Does that so you would just say instead of like we hear a car honk outside, you would just say a car honks outside or something like that. Yeah, okay, yeah, all right, UM let me what wasn't that an improvement that? But what did you did you hear

a car honking? Or will you in your mind. You what's going to be different from the screen in the movie, They're going to be the same. Yeah. Now, when you were at USC, were there any screenplays that were kind of do well? Did you have any like I hate to say this phrase, but any like aha moments when you just like kind of got it for the first time, or when you when you realized like, Okay, this is this is really someone who has talent and this is a

screenplay that you know is going to inspire me. Um. You know, I read all of William Goldman's works, Uh, and it was particularly The Princess Bride. And I actually never read the novel in Princess Bride, but I quite like the movie where I said this, you know, this is an incredible piece of work and it's you just your eyes are just pulled down the page. Uh. Shane Black, who you know, sort of everybody's idol coming up in the in the Square and room. Had you happened to

him what we all want to have happened to him? Uh? Is on record of thing. I read all all William Goldman, I read all of Walter Hill, and so I took my writing style from them, and so I they pointed reading all those Golden scripts, I then pointed reading all Walter Hill script and I did have one thing coming up. The Shane Black did not have this word. I also had Shane Black. So I read both

produced and unproduced and a lot of others. As I say, you have a splight of slopment, but two that really stand out a heart of reading screenplay Joe that I would say that the Princess Bride screenplay was so beautiful made me cry more than seeing the movie ever had. I'm not like the cults fan sent this problem that everybody else that's love it just not you know,

like I'm telling you with you again. Um. And also the movie uh field of Dreams between type of feeling of dreams I am seeing that movie was very emotionally affecting, affecting on me, and I let the writ attack had at least the same emotion, probably more. Um So, I guess it's

you know, I'm giving you the ones that made me cry. Um. I also read a lot of a lot of the ones that give you this emotion, and those probably inforcement writing sound more exactly sure that that emotion is uh uh so I'll just sort of gives the reaction, which is whoa cool I read a lot of those, um and in fact, my my producer said, you're going to carve yourself a nichean Hollywood be cool stuff. Got um and that that is what I tried to do. And that's that's kind

of what I learned to write quickly. Um. Now I've written, I have written screenplay since that don't make you Cry in frantic comedies, in a family movie and things like that that that came over the waves of my ahash and the remember that you stick with me or you know what, like you remember being on an exercise, exercise like reading to you're streaming down my face, or feel with the princess road all right? Now. My final question

is always the same. I call it the time machine. If you could go back in time and talk to yourself when you were, let's say, eighteen twenty years old, what advice would you have for yourself about filmmaking or screenwriting or life in general. Okay, filmmaking way, I think I would say, uh, start writing now, because that came to writing in life. And I'm always very jealous of the people who are at that age and know they want to be writers, because I went through two careers before I

really started writing. And then I would say, because it is all writing, also making its writing, or all of writing and filmmaking and art in general are the same thing from other things. And as best as I can determine, there's a relatively recent revelation for me, I certainly don't how action he is. They are leveraging the most meaning that you can into the smallest possible piece of information. So the most meaning you can and do into a

visual, the most meaning you can into a word or words. If you have a line to spite word and quite meaningful. If you can past one word and lose no meaning, you just increase the ratio of words, meaning of a syllable's meaning last, and so still everything with meaning. If I only had four words to say that eighteen year old, I would say that about about writing. I would say that about filmmaking. I would say that about art. Since you asked, yes, I would say that about life.

Well, Chris, I really really appreciate you coming on today, and thanks for spending the time with us. Jason, it's been a real Please send me a link and let me know when it's talks. All right, Just so so people know, can you do you want to put your links up and you're how to get in touch with you and find your books and things? Sure? Absolutely. Uh, if you searched my name Chris Soap in the Kindle store, you'd see I think at that at this point five

books there. I intend to kind of be publishing it like a Kindle single size book, several times a year, maybe as much as once a week. Shortly, I do sort of a regular screams by Mastermind group, and I sort of started to transcribe those and publish them. The people say to me, I want that information, to get that to me, so you can find that Amazon. I have I guess my flagshift books now, screenplay

mentor dot com and uh there's another one million dollars screenwriting dot com. And if you want to reach me personally that first name and las name Chris sop hl I s h ATKLO dot com or gmail dot com. You can get some either way. Chris doll All right, Chris, thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Thank you, Jason. It's been fun. I want to thank Jason so much for doing such an amazing job with this episode.

If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv Forard Slash two ninety two. Thank you so much for listening. Guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.