You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number one forty six. Success is not final, Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts. With Ston Churchill broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show
is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories, micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus
on that. At Bulletproof script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, w MEE, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Well, guys, today on the show, we have Thomas Dever. Thomas is the head of writer success over at Coverfly, and he
pretty much knows what's going on on the street. He's there talking to agents, managers, producers on a daily basis and helping screenwriters connect with them and showing them what they're looking for and so on. And Thomas and I had a fantastic conversation about where we are in the industry today, what screenwriters need to do in order to get their screenplay seen, and a lot of little tips and tricks on how to get your projects out into Hollyweird. So,
without any further dude, please enjoy my conversation with Thomas Dever. I'd like to welcome the show Thomas Dever. How you doing Thomas, I am doing well. Thanks so much for having me. Oh Man, thanks for coming on the show. Man. You know, you and I have been working together in a in a way for a while now because you guys work you work with cover Fly, who works with me on bulletproof script coverage. And
why this hasn't happened earlier, I have no idea. So I'm glad you're here now and we're going to talk all things about the business and how to you know, I hope that you have all the answers, Thomas, because the answers, because you know, there's a lot of screenwriters listening right now who want to know how to make it. And I was told, you know, so we're going to get into this no pressure. But how did
you get started in the business? Oh? I mean, I feel like I've got the pretty usual story that I grew up in the Midwest and film industry was just this mythical thing way out on the West Coast, and pretty much as soon as I finished undergrad, packed up my stuff and moved out without really kind of any clue of what I was going to do or how it was going to work. Just like I think as soon as I realized, oh, people like actually do this for a living. These are actual
like businesses and I can work at them. Just kind of that was all I wanted to do, you know, started internship to then reading with a production company that had first Look studio deal, so really fortunate to get. That was my crash course on development and coverage and everything that goes into a film before it gets made. And then from there I started working for a producer that was working on a Fox search Light film, So then that was
my crash course on how a film actually gets made. And then after that, I think everybody was kind of telling me, you know, you really got to work at the agencies. The agencies is what you do, that's kind of the way that you get into it. I interviewed at two of them, I won't say which scared the hell out of me, Like genuinely the interview scared the hell of me. I remember walking out in my like nicest suit that I could find and telling the HR person like, yeah,
I think you can take my name off the list. I don't think I can do this because I a little too thin skinned, a little too recent
from the Midwest. So then yeah, so then I just kind of I think I used the verb mid twenties, my way around the industry for a little bit of producing some things, continuing to sort of work in freelance capacity, taught at a film school at one point before eventually finding my way to this, you know, this little world where we found each other, which you know, the competition and the coverage space, and truly I went into it thinking, you know, I remember the scripts that I would write coverage
on at the production company with the studio deal, and like they weren't great. They really I remember thinking, being a professional screenwriter is very attainable based on these samples. And so when I went into the competition, I was expecting like Microsoft word documents and typos and incoherent stories. And I started reading for them and it was like, oh, this is this is really good and this one's really good and this writer is amazing, and these writers are
every bit is talented. Like what what's like? My brain couldn't process it. And I think that's where it all sort of clicked to me of the like all at once, the sort of barriers to entry not necessarily being your skill set or your equality of your writing, or your dedication or your discipline, it's all of these other sort of things, you know, be it geographic or socioeconomic or you know, you know, these sort of cliches of who you know in the industry, and then I think the rest is history
kind of. It's just really dedicating to this competition space and then ultimately the platform that became cover Fly and creating those opportunities and providing that level of access and insight and resources to the writers that you know weren't fortunate enough to just have that readily available. Well, what's so fascinating. And I think a
lot of screenwriters don't understand this. They think that good writing and good screenplays are uni corns, where I mean, you've read thousands of scripts probably in your career. I've read a ton of scripts over the years, and I've read some stuff from really accomplished screenwriters, people who have published, like have produced screenplays, some of them even with some OSCAR nominations. I've read some of these scripts and they can't get them financed. They can't they can't get
them in and then and it just like it's disheartening. I'm like, wait a minute, this thing is sitting on someone's shelf for the last ten years. It is amazing it's one of the best scripts I've ever written, and no one's financing this with talent attached, And I'm like, what is going on? Let alone the unknown scripts that I've read from screenwriters who are so talented, And I'm like, why are some? Why do some pop?
And why do some don't? And it's I mean, I'd love to ask that question to you, like why do And it's a hard question, like why does one guy or one gal make it? Oh, get the opportunity the door opens for them, and the other one doesn't if their talent is at the same level, you know, as you know, give or take sure. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a strange thing, right. I I love a good craft panel or a lecture and I loved like
craft is undoubtedly more fun than the business. But the business considerations or what are deciding it because like, of course they are. You know that this is uh You've brought commerce into it and these are these are companies that are distributing projects. And that doesn't mean that they're all philistines that hate art. It just means that there's there are considerations and what happens here other than simply
what is on the page. And I think that you can find a ton of examples of those of projects that were you know, not in demand and then you know, wait a few years and suddenly they they are. And your script that everyone was passing on is a lot with that, because the one thing I would say to your question is you can't like so much of it is out of your control, like so much of it is out of
your control. I don't know anybody that can write fast enough to either anticipate or accommodate like the trends, which of course are going to be changing on a on a regular basis. And I also don't know if I've met a screenwriter that can pander, you know, that that can write something just because they think it's popular and not really have hard I recycled a cliche that like, look, if it wasn't fun for you to write, it's really not going to be fun for me to read, watch or watch or watch,
right, And I think anybody can see through that. So really, I think our approach to it, you know, if you sort of consider whether your goal is getting staffed on a series or signing with representation or getting your project option or sold, like the less step of that is a decision maker reading it and responding to the material, and there's nothing that you can do to make that happen. Like, there's literally nothing that you can do.
They're either going to like it or they're not. And so if you accept that, like the final stage of this you have zero control over it, sort of puts in perspective, put your energy towards the things that you can control, right, which is the material that you're putting out, the putting out the best possible version of it, network and creating those opportunities getting in front of those decision makers, I guess, to increase the odds of them
responding to it, and increasing the odds of this scenario that you have no
control over. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, because I would say the two most common things that I have seen in the sort of writers that quote unquote make it, which is maybe like a separate discussion of what making it means, but the two most common things that I've seen is one they just they work their ass off, like they truly just when when I meet the sort of most successful or busiest writers or highest level writers that I know, it's like, oh,
hey, what have you been up to, And they're like, well, i just did a draft of this feature, and I'm doing a polish
on this treatment, and I'm also going out with this other thing. And that's just in like the past couple of weeks, you know that it's just you have to crank out the material, and it is just it's really the discipline and the dedication to it. And then the other tree is just a clear focus, like a really clear kind of focus on what their strengths are, what their goals are, what they want to do, what they're good at, and this kind of on this knack for not ever getting knocked off
of that that that not having a sort of like ten step plan that goes to hell if step two doesn't go as you thought it was going to that it's just like, yeah, I'm going to be a staff writer and oh this didn't pan out, so I'm gonna try this pathway and getting an opportunity that's not like a literal one to one of what they're trying to do, but seeing like, okay, here's the parts of this that can move me towards my goal. So that's what I'm going to get out of this opportunity.
And and so that's the closest thing that I can sort of identify in terms of commonality. Yeah, and again that I love that you said that. What is the definition of success? And so many screenwriters think it's getting that million dollar spec script or two million dollar specscript or but you know, I always look at success now and this is maybe just because I'm I'm a bit older. Now, it's just like, can I make can I Can
I make a living doing what I love to do? Can I keep the roof over my head, you know, food on the table, send my kids to school, you know, lived a comfortable life. I don't need millions. Can I just do what I love to do? And that's a that's a disconnect for a lot of screenwriters because they're sold so oftenly they're sold the lottery ticket. I always use the term lottery ticket mentality. They're sold,
you know. And it goes back to Shane Black and Joe estra House back in the nineties when they were pulling in two three four million dollars. Uh A a picture or a script? Do you know the story? Do you know the do you know the story? I have to tell I haven't sell the story on the Shadow. I don't just to that, like what you're gonna say that like the industry that Blake Schneider describes and saved the cat
where it's just kind of like I just popping off ideas. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Like that's the industry that I want to work in, because that's Oh god, that was it was seeing at the moment. No, it's great. There was a story I heard from from a friend of mine about how Shane Black and his last that movie, Last Action Hero, which is got the record four million. You got four million for that? He do you know that he sold that that script off of a cocktail napkin
idea? It rings a bell. It sounds like I read this in a great Land article way back when it was I just heard this. I was at aff the other day and I was talking to somebody at the bar and I know that I know that, you know, I know it's a it's a reparable person I'm talking to. So they're like, this is how it happened. Apparently the agent of Shane said, hey, do you have an idea for a movie, And he's like, yeah, I'll have a great idea for a movie. He goes, write it on this cocktail napkin.
He wrote the log line on the cocktail no script, log line on the on the cocktail napkin. And then that agent called every studio head in Hollywood and said, I've got Shane Black's next script on a cocktail napkin, and you need to come to my office and you can read it in my office. And wait a minute, he goes, you can't send anybody, it
has to be you. So all the six or seven major studio heads all came down to the office read it, and there was a bidding war off of the log off of the cocktail napkin log line and ended up being four million for Last Action Hero, which then, of course did not do well and Shane Shane had a little rough time for the next decade until he came back. We got we got nice guys. Eventually, No, we know. What brought him back was kiss kiss Bank Bank. There we go.
Sorry, kiss Kiss Bank Bank brought him back five years. But he was out. But he was out for about I think he was about fourteen years. Like he would like, he couldn't get arrested. He couldn't get arrested. It was seriously. But then he finally got kis kiss bank Bank made, and then that launched him back into you in the good graces. But that was and I used that story as a as an example of the insanity. Now, I think that was the height of the the being drunk.
I think it was just being drunk on these specscript situations back then. Sure, yeah, I mean, well, uh, that story's uh, that story is way sexier, right, Oh god, it's super sexy if you're if you're sitting at home, because writing is such an isolating thing, right, it's literally you, you and the screen and the keyboard. It's it's so lonesome that I feel like it's more romantic to picture just coming up with this once in a generation idea and then the the millions of dollars based off
of that. I think that's maybe a more enticing story to hear than just yeah, you just like you work your ass off every day and you take these sort of progressions, these progressive steps with with your career, and you sort of grind your way up to them. That's not sexy at all. That's not I don't want to hear that, Thomas. I want to hear the cocktail napping story, Thomas, I don't want to hear I have to
work hard for this. Yeah, and that's I mean, that's the thing is it's uh and you know, even with the even with that, I feel like it's not like it's not like they pulled Shane Black's name out of a hat, right. No, no, no, he was he already exactly there lethal weapon ten to fifteen years before that of the of the grind
to get to it. But no, absolutely, and I think that that is the I understand the allure of thinking like that, but but the truth is, or at least the more common thing that we're seeing is he is just it's a job like anything else, and it's difficult, but you know, And so I'll give you another another story that might illustrate what we're talking
about. When Shane was passing around lethal weapon, every studio passed on lethal weapon, every studio passed on lethal weapon, it was a young from my understanding, was a young Chris Moore who was the OSCAR nominated producer of Goodwill Hunting and Project green Light, you did all that stuff. He read it and said this is great, and he forced it up the ladder and got someone to finally take a real look at it again and got it financed.
But it was passed on. Everybody passed it because it was such an Buddy Cops were essentially the new The buddy cop really came in within forty eight hours, and that was only probably a couple of years prior to that, so
it wasn't the thing yet and people passed on it. So it was just like you had a champion and then of course the talent was there and then everything else blew upon and yeah, and I think that that kind of goes back to it, right, which is when I was just saying a few minutes ago, though, like, hey, the last step of this you have no control over that was even a script is incredible as lethal weapon.
It's getting two exacts that are just not responding to it, but you keep sending it out, You keep sending it out, you keep working on it until it finds the one and you just find that one champion and that's really kind of all you need sometimes, well, yeah, I mean find finding that champion and finding we all need champions. Everybody needs a champion. Spielberg had a champion, you know, Nolan to Shane, everybody all these guys
have champions. You know, if it wasn't for Steven Soderberg, Nolan wouldn't have gotten I think was it's Omnia, which then of course got him Batman and then the rest of the SCE history. You know. So, but you need someone to just go hey, it's okay, but you got to keep grinding. And that's the thing that people, the screenwriters specifically don't understand, is the grind. It's it's the grinding day in, day out,
do the work. I think the other thing is too and I always I always tell screenwriters this that if you if you have if you've been working on a screenplay for seven years, you're not a professional screenwriter anymore. You should you need to have ten At seven years, you shl have like five ten screenplays. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back
to the show. Yeah, I mean even to like what you were saying earlier though, because I think that's one of the things that like we so cover fly with A We have a dedicated team of people and we offer free consulting for screenwriters. And that's whether you're a professional screenwriter. That's hit a you know, hit a rut or you're just an emerging screenwriter, we'll you know, we'll consultant will help kind of come up with a focus and a
plan moving forward. The first question I ask everybody is what's the dream? Like, genuinely, what's what is the dream? If I could start not like what you think you're supposed to be doing based on trends or what you think is realistically attainable given your circumstances, Like genuinely, if I could like sprinkle pixie dust or stat my fingers, what would you be doing? Because
like, let's figure out a way to do that. You know that if your dream is to just make indie films that you write, direct, produce, that's an awesome dream. Let's figure out how to make that happen. You're probably not going to make that happen by cranking out pilots and trying to get staffed in a room because you think that that is like the more viable pathway, and you're going to do a lot of work and probably be unhappy.
Right even with that, your goal is to write and direct your own and like, look, if you can find a way through that that, it's like, okay, I'll use this to ultimately get back to the goal do that, but it's you know, do do you know like what you were saying that like finding a way to be happy with it. And I think if your goal is to just self finance and make your own projects, like do it instead of living up to this like that the only measurement of
success is selling studio specs or something. It's you know, that's that some person's dream, But that doesn't have to be yours, right, No, And I think that what you said was is so wonderful. It is being happy doing what you're doing. Because I mean, I always wanted my goal, my dream, if you were going to ask me that back when I was twenty two. I want to direct feature films. That's all I want
to do. I want to direct feature films. But I jumped into post production because I was a way to make a living, and I was very grateful for that, but I was probably in there a lot longer than I should have, and I should have really fought a lot harder to get out of just doing editing or color grading or post supervising or the other stuff that I was doing to make a living, to the point where I got so
unhappy. I was bitter, I was angry. I was I always tell people the angry and bitter story, which anytime I speak, speak in front of all ARTI how many people here know an angry, bitter screenwriter? And then everyone raised their hands. I'm like, if you didn't raise your hand, you're the angry and bitter screenwriter. Everybody else knows so. But it's because you become angry and like that person is like, oh, I'm working in a I'm working in a writer's room. I've been pounding out these pilots.
It's horrible. I'm on like this fourth or fifth level down a show somewhere, you know, in the middle of the country or whatever, and I hate doing what I'm doing. What I really want to do is well, you just said I want to I want to write, direct, produce
in direct indie film, because that's that's the thing. I think that there's this h I don't know, there's this perception that gosh, we're getting like so philosophical here, and it's like, good, this perception and money is going to make you happy, Like genuinely, post people do pretty well. And if you were on top level projects, I'm sure I did I did. I did fine, I did, I kept I my my I was good for a long time. UH with post Post, I can't say anything
negative about it, but I wasn't happy doing it. Just as the same thing. If someone paid me a million dollars a year to uh to you know, push a broom around all day, the money would be great. But at a certain point you're just like, this is not what I want to do. This is not why I'm here now, And you start asking the question, well, why am I here? Am I here to make money? Am I here to be happy? Now we're really getting deep into
phil because that's I mean, usually it's funny. Now we're going through like the progression. It's like we're deconstructing a cover flight consultation call. There's another question that I ask right like you and I were saying before we fired it up, like we're crazy, right, this is this is the sity industry. Is you know that I I admire the conviction that I had in my early twenties that I'm just like, oh, I'll pack all of my possessions
and just driving to a state two thousand miles away. But like those you know, asking writers, it's I ask what what is the like what do you sort of see coming up in everything that you write? And not just like a format in a genre, but like genuinely like what themes? What like philosophical or stylistic consistencies? Like what are your projects like and what are they about? Followed up with like why is that? Because this is not
something that you just think about or something that you're interested in. This is something that you are compelled to express in the form of feature screenplays and pilots and shorts and and usually if we're you know, talking with you, not just that you're doing it pretty well. So like where that's coming from? Somewhere there is coming from some sort of innate need on your part to express
this. And and so I think that puts in full scope just how I don't know, just like how much passion is behind this, that that if you're trying to put it towards something that your heart isn't in, how much it is going to take out of you and why it is going to make you and just sort of suck your soul to the point that you were talking about, because this isn't I don't know, this isn't like a job that you can just like, Okay, I'm done. At the end of the
day. You're putting your whole heart and soul and your life into this. Could you imagine if you could just check out? Could you imagine you just can you clock out at five? And like, Okay, I don't. I'm not a filmmaker anymore. I'm not a screenwrite anymore, to know, Thank God, let me just care, let me just let me just get a beer and drink and just chill and think about anything anymore. No,
it's I've called it a disease. It is a disease that you get bitten by the bug and that bug, and once you're bitten by the bug, it will never ever ever go away. It can go dormant for decades, but eventually it will re surface in one way, shape or form. And I do this because I've talked to sixty five year olds who are seven year olds who's like, I'm retired now. What I really want to do is
direct and it happens. And there's really I don't even know what other industry there is that that has that kind of insanity, you know, like, look, I did the same thing you did. I did a little bit later in life. I didn't do it in my mid twenties. It in my early thirties where I packed up, moved cross country to California, new two people, and this was my plan. My plan was I had to rent an apartment in North Hollywood where one room would be where we slept and
the other room would be where I put up my editing system. And I was just gonna show up. Now, mind you, I had, I had a decade of stuff behind me before I showed up. But even then, I just, for whatever reason, I started working and I started working. I started working and it worked out, but it could have very easily crash and burned. Oh yeah, I mean it's it's the same thing.
But I think that, like like you said, I mean, it sort of goes back to the Hey, you have this like unwavering focus of what you're going to do, and you don't have the sort of steps figured out, but you're just really not going to be denied because yeah, because your
heart is in it to that point. And it is always fascinating, you know, to find so many people that are really successful in other fields that this is like a hobby for them, or this is something that they're pursuing and this is you know, I but that's I don't know, that's what
kind of makes it. That's definitely what makes it so cool. You know, I think of all the I mean, I tell people all the time, I think I've just got like one of the greatest jobs that I of all the ways that you could kind of get up and earn a living and pay your bills. I get to get up every day and with an entire company full of people do something that we like, genuinely truly care about,
and get to be with people that love the same things I love. And that's that's what's so fun about stuff like this, you know that you were saying, you know, getting together at Austin Film Festival, we just we kind of find one another. You know, there's this this this little like family that seems to emerge around the screenwriting community. Yeah. Absolutely, and uh, without question this when when I started helping people with my podcasts and
with my websites and things like that, my life changed. And I think I'm blessed just like you. I get to do what I love to do on a daily basis, and uh, while I pursue my own projects and I pursue my own you know, books and stories and other things and things that I like to do. Now, one thing that a lot of screenwriters don't really get is the absolute necessity of networking and being able to make those connecttions but make them in a very organic way, is opposed to hey man,
I hear you're a producer, here's my script. Yep. Yeah, like I just met you, like you you know, it's like it's ridiculous. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a I don't want to generalize writers, and I'll say this that I used to be the exact same way. I think that there's it's not that networking just makes a lot of people uncomfortable, because let's let's just call networking what it is, which is
talking to strangers. It's you know, it's it is starting a conversation with a stranger and and putting pressure on yourself to build a connection and a short amount of time. And as a person that like my undergrad degree is in
English, I sat in the back. I spent most of college just reading, you know, so I believe, like yes, going and talking to people that I didn't know was like my worst spirit at some point in time, so I think that there's a reluctance to do it, and that's what kind of fosters this idea of like, oh, it's just you just have to know this person and they just give these jobs to their friends and things like that, when it's like, like there's certainly a degree of that in
the industry, but there's like to put in perspective that if you're an exec or a producer or a showrunner or someone around those people, you're going to get a stack of like two hundred scripts for one spot maybe and they're all going to be good. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
and now back to the show. Yes, it's very common that you break the tie, so to speak, with the opinion of a person that you trust, or a person that you know, or a person that you like or a person that you just you know is not going to let you down in that situation. So take that for whatever it's worth in the scope
of networking. But to what you were saying, Yes, for some reason, the like sentiment around networking seems to be just pitching any stranger that like returns eye contact with you, And I feel like there is you've all been at a networking event, regardless of how big it is, where there's just a person there that's just kind of on like a loop of just like they give their project and their spiel to this person, and then they give their
project and their spiel to this person, and it's like, I think, surely someone listening to this right now is like like they're feeling this like chills down there. They're cringing, cringing. Yes, you know what it is like to be on the other side of that. So like, yeah,
don't don't be that person. To me, I always say, go in with questions, go in with learn about who this person is, what they do, what's important to them, what they're working on right now, do they have any problems that you can solve, Do they have any projects that you can help on, And like trust that if they're working on something where there is a world for you to collaborate, it's going to come up by asking those questions that if you're you have this amazing horror feature spec and you
start, hey, so what do you do, what sort of projects do you work on, what types of movies do you like, what types of materials do you respond to? And they start saying, God, I just love horror films, and we've got to finance here, and we're trying to find something like this that fits your project. That is such a better way to bring up your material and mention it to them versus going in and just being like, I've got a horror feature. This is what it's about,
and you should read it. And here's that. And it's like, I work in TV. Why are you yelling at me? You know? Or also a screenwriter. I don't know what you want me to do. And I was like walking It's like walking off to the Jason Blum and going, hey, I've got this dog safe Christmas script. That's I think you'll be perfect for it, Jason. And and the funny thing is I this is always infuriating. I get cold emails about pitching projects to me. I have
no power. I can't finance your script. I'm not looking for projects to produce. All you got to do is listen to three or four of my podcasts or just read a couple articles and you'll understand who I am. And people are just so desperate that they just just start throwing things out and and it just gets deleted automatically. But you start like emailing, you know, you get an IMDb pro account, you just start emailing people you script.
That is not the way to do it. The shotgun approach doesn't work. You've got to be more surgical. Well yeah, and that's that. I mean, we take the same approach because we do consult. I mean, the thing is like, am I going to pretend that queries have a high rate of success? No, they do not. However, we've worked with writers that have one hundred percent found success with queries. Because I think that
there's a there's a good way to do it. And so if you you know, so much of what we do is like one, be really concise and articulate. Get get through who you are while you're emailing them and what
the ask is as quickly as possible. Because if you're emailing a person that works in the entertainment industry, there's a good chance that they have like two hundred emails in their inboks, and if they open it up and it is five paragraphs of boiler plate, like even if you are a dead center bullseye of what they're looking for right now, they just don't have time to do that and they're going to delete it and to like what you were saying with
it. It's always like here's who I am, Here's what I do, here's where I'm like emailing you. I love it if you know, if it's a fit, I'd love for you to take a look at my script. If not, no worries, knowing that most people are not going to respond, But you might have a person that is looking exactly for that, and you're respectful and got to the point and they're like, yeah, sure,
send the script. At this point they've requested your material versus it's the equivalent of like put again, put yourself in their shoes and use common sense of like catching the script in the initial email. How would you feel if a person walked up to you on the street and was like, hey, I heard that you can help me spend two hours reading this script and giving
me your thoughts on it. Your your response one hundred percent would be it's awfully presumptuous to you to just assume that I'm going to do this, and yet that that's kind of the common practice of queries, right right, it's it's it's a fairly insane It's insanity, man, it really is. And and so I also wanted to ask you this because I actually had this question
from a screenwriter the other day. Should a screenwriter sign a submission release form if they're submitting to a producer or a company or something like that, they're The thing is like, they're they're common practice. You know that they're they're commonplace. So don't think that you're signing your life away. You know,
I guess read it and make sure you're not signing your life away. But I am guessing that somewhere in all of them, there's going to be a cause that it's like, look, if you a year or two, five years from now, see that we have a project that looks really similar to
something that you submitted to us, like, you can't sue us. And the reason that's the case is because you can imagine what companies would be opening themselves up to if they didn't do that that if you you know, they're already I think getting sued all the time for people trying to claim that. But if every script that was submitted to them, that any line or story or beat or commonality that like appeared in a project that was later produced,
that's why they're doing it. At the same time, I I don't think that you have any problem in signing it. I think that there's no I don't know anybody that isn't looking for an amazing script and if they read your script and love it and really respond to it, they'll work with you. Because I think that there's a perception among writers or a fear that oh, they're going to read it and like my idea and steal it. And it's just like, I don't know, I don't know if I've really seen that.
I don't really know why they why they necessarily would do that. But at the same time, I totally get where the fear is coming from. Yeah, I mean I've had heard of some people's ideas getting stolen or and when I say stolen, it's more like, you know, they took a couple of kernels and sure, all of a sudden, now they have something
new. I mean, I remember when we were the years ago, when I had a script floating around that got to Sony and I said, they asked for it because they'd seen one of my one of my films, and I said, I submitted it to them, and they're like, oh, we're going to pass because we have something similar in theme, and then two years later that movie came out which was not not anything like not anything like
my script at all, but there were ideas and themes there. So you have to protect yourself as I guess what you should one hundred percent protect yourself. You should. It's one of the biggest things that I think is valuable about a platform like cover fly, because you you know, we have the writer platform where you can host your projects and your bio, and then we have an industry facing portion of it where they can search for writers and projects.
But we really closely monitor the activity on that side of it, and so if somebody downloads your script, we have a timestamp of when they downloaded it. And this isn't necessarily a commercial for the data protection that is cover Fly. It's it's to drive home the point that like, yes, you should be precious with your material and and I think with a submission release form, passing it along through a friend or having them request it is always going
to be the better option. So I would advise that with it, I will say by no means am I an attorney, and you should always check with an attorney. Absolutely likely taking my advice. The consensus is you can cannot copyright an idea, only the execution of an idea, because I do think that like most screenwriters I know have had like an idea that they were super excited about and then they see like a trailer they read in the trades
an idea that it's really similar. And I'm not going to pretend that that doesn't just like it happens all all the time. Are you kidding me? When I saw when I saw Clerks by Kevin Smith, I was working in a video store, I'm like, son of a bitch, what did I got? I had this idea? Why didn't I just execute it? Well? There you no, truly, and so I'm I get it. I feel the pain of writers in that situation. What I will say, though,
is that I don't want to say that ideas are cheap. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. But good ideas are good. Ideas are easier to come by than the execution of good ideas. Truly, I think most screenwriters I know come up with like five blockbusters in the shower and on their way to work in the morning.
You know, it's just like you're coming up with these ideas, and really the tough part isn't executing it, so as tough as that can be, it sort of goes back to what we were saying earlier of like you got to be cranking out material, because man, if you're just kind of hinging all your hopes on one project, you are kind of opening yourself up to that, right, You are sort of opening yourself up to like, oh, I have to make this one thing go versus like really utilizing your
talents to give yourself multiple opportunities. Yeah, And I wanted to ask you as well and kind of put this to rest for so many screenwriters out there, this is my opinion. I'd love to hear yours. I get asked all the time, how do you protect your screenplay? I go, you register it with the Library of Congress. That's the only one that matters. You could do it with the WGA, that's nice, but the WJA does
not hold up in court. The Library of Congress. That's the only one that you have the boom and it's that and you can and again, you
can't do the idea, but you can do the actual screenplay. It's the only way I know of and that I always recommend what about you sure, I mean, and that's I mean, that's you're probably gonna do that, right if your film is moving into any sort of production, right because at some point, unless you're just kind of shooting the project yourself, somebody else is going to need to own the script and they're going to help there. Yeah, once it gets into production, that's a you have to have that.
That's part of the chain of title. But prior to that, while you're pitching and things like that, to make you feel better as a screenwriter, you want to have the production spend thirty five bucks, forty bucks, get a covered and don't mail it to yourself. That doesn't work. That's
that's a myth. Don't mail it yourself because that's the thing. I think that, like what you said there is it's making yourself feel better and giving yourself the peace of mind to know that you have protected this version of this story. Otherwise, I think it's always good to have a paper trail, right, And because I know that getting getting an attorney can be prohibitively expensive for a lot of emerging screenwriters. Why it's just it's kind of like cover
your basis to as much as is necessary for it. You know, if you're in the sort of like talking stages of a project and there's no real money on the table, you probably don't need a fifteen page contract, right to like to find terms of what you know. But I think always just
be really clear. And I think this goes into a lot of what we've been saying, whether it's like working with a producer with a collaborator, especially when you sign with representation, because that's a whole separate discussion we get with writers is just be really clear about being on the same page of expectations, because I think that that's where a lot of problems come from, right which is with I think a lot of writers with producers are being afraid of getting
taken advantage of, or afraid of their material being mishandled. Which is why you know, before you embark on a working relationship established, if the expectation is like, Okay, we want to, we want you to, we want to develop this with you, does that mean one draft and a polish or does that mean like infinite read writes until I'm happy with it over some nonspecific period of time. Because if you think one thing and they think another,
the project's kind of doomed before it even gets started. And same applies to working with a manager or an agent, which brings me to my next question, the agent and manager conundrum, where there's so many screenwriters think that all you need is Ari Gold from Entourage and if they represent you, they're going to get you the million dollars, they're going to get your career in a skull. And people are like, how can I get an agent? How can I get a manager? I'm like, and I always ask them,
how many scripts do you have? I have won and a couple of ideas. I'm like, you're not ready for an agent. And I've known writers who've won the Nichols, who placed in the Nickels, who've placed in multiple big and they get signed and they go nowhere because the management is like, should I push Shane Black or should I pull should I push Bob who I just signed? Talented? But what's gonna be how am I gonna make what am I gonna make the most money from? Where's my money? Where's
my R O Y and R O D? You know going to make the most sense? So can you please kind of demystify the whole agent manager thing? For people. It is undoubtedly the most popular question that we get and I don't. I actually don't know what's even a close second. It is always how do I get a manager? Right? That is the that is
the the holy grail of emerging screenwriters. And I get it right because I think that the perception is I think you're sort of feeling that for a stration of being on the outside looking in the lack of access, the lack of opportunity, and like, yes, a manager and agent can solve that. But if there is this perception that like, Okay, great, I signed with the manager, I cracked my knuckles, I put my feet up, and I just wait for the deals to roll in, that's definitely like not
the case. Right. Like it is, you're going to be facing a lot of the sort of same struggles, and even the writers that we do know with representation are still having to grind and get to that next step. I can't remember. I can't remember who said this to me, because I would give credit if I could recall. But I think we made the comparison of like you view getting a manager like having an accountant, Like does your
career you have money? Does your career necessitate having a manager right now, and in the same way that it's like, if you've just got like your ten nine and your W twos, you can probably file your own taxes right, and you can, you can get your own opportunities and develop your material and build that. But if your career gets to a point where you need a REP, it's just a much clearer kind of pathway right and getting to
a point where you need a manager and need an agent. And that's not to say that people don't sign with representation very earlier in their very early in their career, but it's usually much more common that you've built top a degree of sort of like momentum and opportunity, and the managers not just kind of picking somebody starting somebody from scratch, because I think with you know, a
couple of things one think about it from the perspective of the manager. To go back to the queries, We've seen a lot of writers that approach reps and the consensus is, hey, you should sign me as a client because I really want a manager. And it's like that doesn't like, what does that do? I mean? I think to them, right like, look, this is their job, this is their livelihood, that yes, it is art and it's passion and it's emotion, and it's this thing that they
deeply care about. But this is also their livelihood. This is how they pay their bills, and their job is to assemble a roster of clients and projects that are going to make money that they collect a commission on. So it might not be the sole determinant in their decision, but it's going to be a portion of it. So if you you know, if you understand that, yes, they need to respond to the material, but also have this idea of where your career is going to look right and sort of have
these opportunities and what working together is going to look like. Getting to the part that you're a working writer in that conversation because the other I think it goes back to the sense of indie filmmaking, which I special place in my heart. My heart is always in indie filmmaking and will be in indie features.
The economics of it don't always make sense to have a rep. Because if I'm a rep and I get ten percent of your projects and your deals, and you make a low budget feature, let's just even say grand, yeah, one hundred grand, right, and so you if you're making any money as the writer director, you know, it's let's say you get fifteen grand, right, which is now there's no way that you take fifteen percent of the budget. Let's say that you get five grand, and you're probably
working on that project for like at least a year. That means that their commission is five hundred dollars for one year. That even if they love you, love the project, care about the material, it just it's really tough to dedicate any jobs anything right to five hundred dollars over twelve months, versus something that's going to yield that. But I don't I don't want to taint
the perception because I really I think so much about it too. Is just finding that right fit, is finding the person that gets you, gets your material, gets this sort of vision for your career, and you can work with and building that relationship. At the same time, don't underestimate your own
ability to generate those opportunities. We come across writers all the time that have gotten their projects sold, that have gotten themselves staff done, series that have episode credits, that are getting sort of meetings with major studios and streamers, and there's no really one way to do it. It's just a lot of networking and leveraging relationships and sharing their material and maximizing those relationships that getting themselves
to that point. The discussion of pursuing representation becomes so much easier, right because if you're you're kind of painting this picture of like, hey, here's what my career is going to look like, it's much easier when it's tangible and you're working in a writer's room versus just off of like the samples. If that makes sense, Yeah, it does make sense, and I want to ask you as well. So many screenwriters will walk into a room, you know, like let's say, let's say perfect scenarios. They get a
manager. Manager gets them a meeting at a studio because they had one sample script that they loved, and they're like, I like this guy's voice or I like this guy's voice. Let's get them. Let's get them in and let's have a meet. They come in, they're like, okay, what do we love this script? We can't produce this, this is it's unproducible. What else do you have? So that's the moment where a lot of deer in headlines because they're like, wait a minute, that took me three
years to do and I don't have any I have three ideas. And if you have three ideas, you're pretty much dead in the water because everybody has ideas. Everybody in that room has ideas. But you can't produce an idea. You got to produce a script. So how many scripts, in your opinion, is a good number projects that you should walk into with a meeting like that, like real, like real real things will be right back after
a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. Yeah, I mean it's I guess, uh. Two answers to that, Like one, the idea thing is interesting, I guess I won't say. But one of the more prestigious writing and directing fellowships. I've spoken to writers that have been through it, where the first couple of weeks is literally no writing, no development, just ideas, and they make you come up with a bunch of ideas and then they throw them out and make you come off with new ideas.
And speaking to the writers that have been through that program, they say that is the most difficult part, more so than notes and writing and rewriting, because you're just you're you're getting down to like the marrow of who am I as a creator? Like what is my twenty fifth idea? Or is
my twenty fifth new fresh idea? But I think that puts in perspective of just like the standard that you have to sort of hold yourself to as well as like I think after a certain point you get good at generating those ideas knowing it to your question with a you know, the two parts of it, I would say the samples. I think most people really want to see
what you can do and whether that is it. I would say at least too maybe you know, if you've got like fifteen, it's sort of like, oh man, this person just kind of like how like polished or any of these even if they are polished, the perception of seeing fifteen I think
so at least to probably like three or four. But really the more important thing is having a consistency and like what your voice, what your talent is, what your perspective is, and showing how it applies consistently but in different means. You know, there is no shortage in the world, but especially in Southern California, of people that can write just a really excellent, tight feature or one hour half hour pilot like that is not hard to come by.
So if you're going in with like, oh, I can write a feature, you're kind of short changing, you know, right right in the horror future writer, like, great, you're the one we've been waiting for. You Bob or Bob Bob really has no clue. But like, truly as sentimental as it sounds, like, what no one else, literally no one else in the world has is how you tell this story. Your perspective,
your experience is what you are bringing to the page. And as much as you can articulate that as well as display that on the page, whether that's across four samples there two, whether it's across a you know, one hour procedural and a thriller feature. I think that's kind of the key to it. And then within that meeting, Yeah, that's every general ever, right, which is we love this is the greatest thing ever, but it's not what we're making right now. So let's spend the next like fifty nine
minutes figuring out what to talk about here. And I think it goes back to what I was saying about networking, right, which is, if you don't take the effort to understand and you should have done you know, hopefully you've done some research before the meeting, But if you don't make an effort to understand what is it that they're working on right now, what is it that they're developing, what is it that they're maybe struggling with or really looking
for or excited about, and what do I have that fits that? I think that's again, it's a much easier discussion to have because you know what you have in your arsenal. And if they happen to be looking for this high concept project that you've only kind of fleshed out a little bit and maybe only have a treatment for, you can get to that by asking those questions.
Whereas if you just fired off, oh, I've got like a comedy feature sample in this one hour, you're now like zero for three with them, Whereas you have this idea that they wanted to develop with you, if you could have just sort of like worked to that in the conversation, and that's kind of typically the advice we give for generals and things like that. Yes, the water bottle tour, if you're lucky enough to go on the water bottle to her, that's good. Zoom to her now right, Yeah,
now it's a zoom to our way. Now it's a zoom to you bring your own bottle? Uh with you. Now I'm gonna ask a few questions, ask all my guests. Uh, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn? Whether in the film industry or in life? Oh, my goodness, we're really it's tom. I guess I'll give both. I think I think in the film industry, it's just it's kind of seeing it for what it is. And I mean that in the best sense, right, It's like it's an industry industry, right, you know?
And and I think that any time that you are asking people to in you, to give you money, and in some cases a lot of money to make your project or to write a project, you do have to understand that there's a degree of business that goes into it. To recycle all my metaphors, I say, you know, Nike doesn't just like design a shoe and
then put it on the shelves and hope that people buy it. There's there's an entire presentation of why Nikes are cool and why you should buy them, and why they're better than other shoes, and that's why you sell them and like to a sense, that's what you have to do as a screenwriter, and there's no substitute for excellent writing, and the writing always comes first.
But I think the tough lesson is like understanding the business circumstances that go into most decisions, but accepting that that's okay, that is something that you can use to your advantage, and that doesn't mean that you have to I don't know, rue that it's all about the money and that you can navigate it and and understand that to your advantage in life. I think, like you and I were talking before we started, I just think like getting getting a
little older, you like calm down a little bit. I think is kind of trust that, like, look, things are going to be okay. I've had enough sort of like one year, five year, ten year plans that just kind of like go out the window, perhaps none more spectacularly than in March of twenty twenty, when I, you know, have spent the past year and a half in counting at home. And I think that's really kind of informed the philosophy that we impart to writers, which is like just
remember what's important, remember what the ultimate goal is. Don't make it harder on yourself by like defining the steps along the way as well as saying that you have to do it. There's no timeline on this. You know, there's tons of people that break in in their early twenties and their mid thirties or later. You know, just just have focused on what you're going to do and try and take steps towards. That's That's the best I've gott in
terms of a life philosophy. Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough? What are three screenplays every screen writer should read? I'm going to go back to. I'm thinking of my Uh, I'm thinking of when in my reader days, when I was reading at reading at Kevin Mescher's company. It had already come out, But I think that the screenplay for Little Missed Sunshine is just brilliant. It's like it's a it's a novel. I don't know if we can retroactively give it like a Pulitzer or something. No it is,
it is. It is a brilliant It is a brilliant script and a brilliant film. Yeah, brilliant. And it's UH to just to just sort of have this really this like dark, quirky comedy that is this also deep exploration of Pristian philosophy that is like readily apparent on the first page and then perfectly executed for the rest of the script. That was the first one that came
to mind. I remember reading the script. This probably dates me, but I remember reading the script for Crazy Stupid Love acript also and a great script that when I read it, and I forget what draft I read, was like near identical to the film that they ended up producing, like down down to the like lines of down down to like specific words of just sort of I say that one not necessarily for like a philosophical or thematic of just like
this is what a produced screenplay looks like. This is a read the screenplay before I saw the film, and then I saw the film and it was like, oh, that's like verbatim that these guys just like got it up onto the screen man. Then the last one, I feel like I should give a shout out to a cover fly writer. No, I mean this is three of all times, so you don't have to feel all time, so they're not they're not whole. I mean, we'll be right back after
a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. I guess that's problem now, I don't know how much it's changed, but again from my like the last Duel, which is finally coming out, I say, that's a sort of put in perspective, like there was some major talent attached to it when I read that script ten years ago and it is just coming out now, and I think it had kind of made the rounds then, just in the sense of, like I say that one to maybe just be
cheesy, and that it can sometimes it is like some really a list people were on that script, and it still took ten years, you know,
to just right. You know, I'm so pumped to see it because it was amazing and the fact that I think that's a testament to reading hundreds, if not thousands of screenplays since then, that I still I still remember it, and I don't know, I just gave myself goosebumps with it because there's there's a there's what we love about it, right that it's just all about building that connection with the with the material that that it does stick with you
years and years after the fact. Thomas, it's been a pleasure talking to you, man. I know we can continue talking for three hours more, but I truly appreciate I know you have a young one that you're taking care of, so and you're probably exhausted, and you're probably exhausted. I've got a I have a two month old daughter, and so I've noticed that I just kind of start a sentence now and it just I forget, I forget how I started it, and I just kind of go and till every run
out of steam. So hopefully your listeners and your viewers that this made, that this made sense and bearing with me, No, I by all means, I think before we run out of time, head over to cover fly.
Yes, get the account set up. You know, that's always kind of the first step, regardless of where you're at in your writing career, what you're looking to do, just by creating the profile completely free to do so, we can find you and direct you to the resources that are that are most useful to what you're looking to do and and our team will be able to support. And one of those resources, of course, is is the coverage service that we were talking about beforehand, bullproscript Coverage. Yeah.
So I sure, I truly, I truly appreciate you, brother, thank you for doing all the good work you're doing with screenwriters out there and helping them navigate this shark infested, you know, alligator snapping kind of world that it is, unfortunately, but I do truly appreciate you man. Thank you again, my pleasure well to thank Thomas so much for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much,
Thomas. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at bulletprooh Screenwriting dot tv, ford Slash one for six, and if you haven't already, please head over to Screenwriting podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again for listening guys, as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.