At end the episode that's. Hello, and welcome to building the game, documentary podcast. Today is Monday. Open it in. Keep it there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Oh, gosh. What day is this gonna be? This is going to be... What's this week? Next week is 06:34, 06:35. This is... Okay. Yeah. Hello and welcome to building the game. On documentary podcast. Today is Monday, July 20 ninth and you're listening episode 635. The 1 piece of information I did know.
As always I'm your host Jason, here today joined by c host and game designer, Emily Vincent inc. And then the master of definitions, the dictionary of a... It's explain person out of the jab. Wow. You are el today, Jason. I'm so glad to be here for this. Yeah. Yeah. No. So I am... Yeah. Been a busy week. Trying to get school stepped done, and then we're going camping, like, tomorrow morning for I don't know. 9 days or something, and then we have Gen con and then everything
is just... That's a lot between not being prepped for Gen con at all. So that's fun. Yeah. Emily, how's your, Gen con stuff going? I think it's going well. I actually I... I've sort of par down what I'm planning to bring, had a new idea for a different spin on cross stitch, and I'm just sort of trying to bring you know, pirates and cross stitched and cutting flowers, and I'm actually feeling like, I have, like, 2 weeks to get ready. This is like so much time. I'm totally fine.
And so I'm feeling I'm feeling great about it. That's that's great. I'm happy for you. You're happy before. Me. The person who made the best decision in this room know is is John, who's not going to Gen con. Correct? And therefore has nothing to get ready? For, that's right. I do have some some materials. I'm I'm prepping to send along in my s, but I'm not... I don't have to attend in person this year. I I recently got to go to Pro, Michigan.
The the premier location, I guess, which is always like like homecoming every year. So really really happy to do that. That was super productive, very fun got to see a lot of people that that I never get to see in person. And Yeah. So now I'm... I just have a lot to get done for for a little bit farther in the future. Right? We're running the kick... My publisher has decided to, run a kick kickstarter campaign for the next set of holiday hedging games.
Mh. Rather than them playing out piece. So it's gonna be a, a big bundle of the next 3 games and an option to get the Opens course. And as part of that, there's going to be a pledge level for... Well, anyone who buys the... Physical product, and then also a separate pleasure for a puzzle hunt that I'm going to be running as part of the campaign during the campaign. So doing a lot of work putting that together now. It's a it's quite an under undertaking undertaking. But funnel.
That's awesome. At just last weekend, I was playing games with some friends, and they play out a 2 player games and Officer sudden I was like, wait. Do you like escape rooms and they were like, we love escape rooms. We never get to go and I was like, I have good news. I said, so when I'm at Gen con, I'm gonna pick you up, a couple of the, holiday hi inks and
see what they think about those. And then let them go to town and ordering the rest, because I have a feeling they're really gonna jam with it. So what in your opinion, since we're just talking between us here. What in your opinion would be 2 good ones to pick up for somebody to start with, who has never done 1 before. Likes sports games, but has never done 1 of your style escape room in a box games, but is is a puzzle. Okay. Yes. If they
like puzzles. Yeah. I would say, very good intros would be the Turkey trial and the pumpkin problem. Awesome. Those those are both kind of middle of the road, not to bonkers, but do kinda show all the different types of types of things those games do. Perfect. Awesome. Those are the 2 I will seek out then. At the Grand gamer skill booth where you can also find tune in an oak and you could buy that there too. In the so, yeah. But, Yeah. So I will do that then, and
I appreciate that. I I felt dumb because I know they talked about escape rooms before. It never clicked that, like, you like us, don't never get to go to escape rooms because you have kids. So the wires aren't old enough to go now if we want to. How much help is provided is debatable, but yeah. Yeah. Alright. I'll shall it get into it? Yes. Yes. We shall. So I'll let, Jonathan, why don't you take it away with all of the crazy. This is a follow episode. I will
put. That some people may have survived by likely whatever the title is and also by, the fact that it's 3 of us here. So the builders can go back to episode 06:22 to see our previous conversation on this topic. We're gonna follow up with more. So a little review of that is that we started to talk about what's a euro game, I think is kinda how that started.
Yep. And kind of the lens we're looking through is as a designer, what do you need to know about these various terms in order to be a part of the conversation that the design community has around these things and to know whether you're interested in trying to make games that fit these various molds or not, and what what makes those various kinds of games shine. Yeah. Yeah. And I think my favorite thing about the last episode was the fact that the difference between classic hero and what we
call euros now. And I will... That's all I'll say about it. Yeah. Really go listen to the episode if you haven't because it is not the discussion. I thought we were going to have, but it was amazing. So and I wanted to also recap my personal bug boo on this topic, which is that this can be a dangerous conversation to have if you're not if you're not aware when you're having it because language can be, exclusive, exclusionary, very easily.
We think about that often and when we're talking about, you know, gender language and things like that, but it's easy to overlook all of the click ness that also happens with regard to language. And you know, the the classic example, I I can I can talk about my own personal growth in this area? I was a person who would, sn make a make a distinction between a game and an act activity. This isn't a
game. It's just an activity... Guilty, guilty and that is something that I've I've personally been able to grow past. But it's... That's that's a that's a good example because there is a meaningful distinction to be had there. And it's not the distinction and there's the problem. It's that not everyone needs to hear that. Right. Right. Okay. Wait a minute wait a minute. I'm gonna derail immediately because yeah. This is this is feedback that I got. At some point. I'm gonna say recently. It
was within the last 2 years. And that was, like, a moment for me where I was like, oh, what does that even mean? And definitely made me feel bad. Yes. Because I feel my game wasn't a game. It was activity. But there was something in there of, like, I must not have recognizable sign posts of, like, and maybe this is where we call Zoe in from the chat for, you know, multi victor or whatever. But, you know, there's the, you know, no 1 can win this. Therefore, it's not a game or... I I don't know
I can't remember which game it was. Right? It was probably cross. Right? Of, like, it's fun to place the tiles, but there's nothing else there. Gosh not. I'm not the 1 who said that. Well, yeah. So... I don't know. As I remember talking about Was like, this is really fun, but like, we're not actually like, they're what are we doing just join placing these things.
And all of these, like, this is... I I picked that example who is 1 of the most loaded, but a lot of these are less less obvious and and can have the same problem if we... If we're not careful. So it you can have language that is useful if you're talking about it academically. Like, we're going to... We're gonna make this taxonomy, and we're gonna make everything fit into it for our paper or our book. If you're looking at the you know, the fantastic book from Jeff and Isaac, the building blocks
book. You know, they... They're they're doing that academically. They're saying we're gonna try to put everything into these buckets and it's gonna help our conversation. But that doesn't mean that the same those same terms are useful when you're talking to someone who isn't in that context. Gotcha. So, like, it can... The same... Like, if we if we assume the best intentions, which we can't always. But if we assume the best intentions on the person who said that to you.
The the best thing they could possibly be saying is I didn't feel the amount of player agency I wanted to feel in this game. Mh. So, you know, I would once have said that Bingo isn't a game. It's an activity because there's nothing I can do to affect the outcome. That doesn't mean it's not fun. Yeah. But when I say that to someone, it sounds like I'm saying, Bingo is awful. Well And that's not what I mean. I mean, it's a different kind of thing.
I I've found myself saying before, which also, I'm not saying you should say this, but in referring to some kids games, Bingo is a great example of this. Candy land. Is I will say the game plays itself. Yeah. Because you don't play the game. You just do fifth things. Right? Which also sounds like it's being dismissive But it doesn't have to be meant that way. It can be meant as a classifier as opposed to a judgment call, but it's hard to make that come across. It's hard to think of any way to
say that. Because when I'd say, like, well, I just feel like, you know, this game lacks you know, having any really player agency. That just sounds like a sn way to say the game plays itself, it's an activity. Right? Like, that's all of those sound bad. Like, I can't think of a way to say that. Like, maybe if I was giving feedback, I could say, I wish I had more choices. As a point. I I think you're on a track there. Right? So I think there's there's the judgment piece of this, which is
where we started. Right? Is it good or bad as opposed to, like, it exists or it doesn't. But I think there's always the, like, giving feedback as a negative of, like, it lacks this thing versus the, like, I was hoping for more direction. In my choices. Right? Or I was hoping for a little bit more choice in what I could do. Right? Because I think, honestly, I think I've said this to someone recently, and I can't remember how I said it. I I think I was play testing something in origins.
Right? And it was 1 of these things where it was, like, pleasant to do, but I didn't know which direction to go because I didn't really understand what Right? So mine was, like, it's a great activity, but I don't know how I finish it. Right? I don't know, like, what's the end condition Right, you know that kind
of thing. So yeah, I think I don't know, for me, the sort of takeaway here is, like, always think about how I'm framing it and maybe frame as, like, player wants versus, like, this game lacks. Right? Mh Yeah. Mh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can always If I had play tested your game, I would have sold you that... Sorry. I mean, it could have been you know, you could say, you know, this feels like right now, the kind of thing that people who like bingo would like.
You know, you could you can frame it positive like that, And then you can say, is that the audience you're going for? And if the answer is no, then you can say, oh, okay. Yeah. Do you like do you want your people to feel like they're playing candy land? A child's game? Oh, it's your... My favorite thing about ka land is you have no inputs. Yet. It's still wildly unbalanced. Well, you can't... So candy land... I mean, it in that sense, it is an activity. You're not a game if we're gonna do that
kind of thing. But it's important. I mean, it's it... It's for the age group, it's for, those are people who need to learn how to do those things. Take turns. And follow rules even when they don't like the outcome. Exactly pulled the little critter that sends you back to the first spot. Even in the Man that makes them mad. Yeah. I treat those out and my kids got mad because I was asking came with those in there. They saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I like this already. We're already
defining game. We are You even though that wasn't find... Yeah. Let's just define the word game. Yeah. I mean, but there's plenty to say there. Actually there was a a good early episode where they attempted to do that. And I think I listen. They to them... An entire episode and didn't manage to quite do it. There's no way there. Right.
To Yeah. And I also wrote down here in this kind of intro thing as an another example of that, just a little personal experience, I'm currently having with this definition stuff. Is the marketing of the game series we were just talking about. These these things that I tend to call escape room games. And for a for an audience, that is a very descriptive term that works really well. And we're now wrestling with...
Well, we've got a, marketing professional on the team who really didn't know that term. As those room. The der escape... Yeah. Or escape room game in particular. Because when I hear a escape room game, I know what that is. I know that that is a set of puzzles that was inspired by the physical escape room craze of the, you know, 20 10 ish. Yeah. And that it's going to be a particular kind of thing. I know it doesn't mean I'm literally trying to escape a room. Even narrative or in real life.
But that's what it says it is. Yeah. And so is that does that mean the term needs to have a new term, you know? Or or should I call it something else when? Speaking to certain kinds of people that it's... I don't have an answer to that yet. Gosh. Even escape room as as it, like, like, you're in an escape room. Right? Like, mh. That terminology is is really problematic. Isn't it? Like, it could be interpreted as that. I mean... Yeah. I mean, eventually room, maybe it's better. I
I mean, I'm not gonna call it. If other people aren't but I... It just occurred to me that, yes. That could be concerning for some people that way. Yeah. It's how about trying to... But I've been trying to play around in my head with just saying cooperative puzzle game, which doesn't. Which is less expressive. Yeah. But definitely accurate. Yeah. Because it's a timed cooperative puzzle game, and that really rolls off the tongue.
Yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna see that over and over, I think of these things where I know it when I see it. Yeah. I can't say is... You can't say escape the... Game because then if they've ever watched deep space time, they're gonna have a very different opinion of what that's like, because of that 1 episode. Game So... Yeah. So we thought for today, what we're gonna try to do is go through genres, and we don't know how many of these were gonna get through and should be 1. That's...
Yeah. Exactly. No. I think I think at least 2. We put down what 25. So we're doing gonna try to get down through 2 or 3. We're gonna very generous. Left off in the next 1. Yeah. Yeah. Jonathan generous by we put down 25, Jonathan put down 25. And Jason, I were like, we're in. Yeah. Yeah. And 1 of the things I wanted to point out is we're gonna talk about genres, which overlaps with mechanisms, we're not really talking about mechanisms.
Mh. So there are a lot of games that will have a lot of different mechanisms, but you would call it a... Well, the first 1 on the list, a worker placement game. Right. Other games might have worker placement. You might not think of them as worker placement games. So so How about we start there? What do you think of when you hear worker placement? I think of my an about worker placement versus action selection. Okay. Okay. So I've just hit number 2 on the list? It's good come So so
let... Let's... But what game do I think? Yeah. What games? Yeah. Ever. Okay. Stone age. Mh. I so a euro. Yeah. First 1 I think of is a g. Yeah. Yep. Other work... Yeah. I don't know Ever, but I assume you're right. I mean, I I know of it. I've not played it. Yeah. I mean, I think it's... I don't know if it's a worker placement game so much as there is a work replacement mechanic and maybe more of a tableau builder game,
and it just has work placement. But, yeah, some of the earlier euros makes me think of that. I don't think of weirdly enough, like Puerto Rico were back to apparently, my favorite game, my favorite problematic game in Puerto Rico, but has literal work placement, but I still don't know if I think of that as a work. Replacement game. Yeah. Puerto Rico. I would say, it... It it's kinda like worker replacement, but the the workers that you're placing are not a worker plays of mechanism. Right.
Yeah. So that's selection game. I would say. Right. It's an action selection. And maybe a little Tableau build. Right? Yeah Man man, I feel weird that I can't think of action or work replacement games. So... What does the Google machine say? When I just... Oh, go ahead. No. Go ahead. If you got an examples. Oh, I was just gonna say that I just searched Bg g for well... Okay. To be clear, I didn't search anything on Bg g because that's useless.
I went to Google and said search Bg g, and then it did a great job. Doing Imperium, I see on the list. Mh. It's a new 1. Can you just sort by rating? Who knows? Yeah. It's gonna come up with Vi culture. It's gonna come up Yep. With, yeah. Kayla list the... Yeah. Is on the list Emily. Yeah. So what I think of to distinguish worker placement. As... And again, this is kind of as
a mechanism, but it bleeds... Please bleed together is that you are classically putting a worker a a piece of wood that you have that is your your limited pool of workers, on something to do a thing and that prevents or makes it difficult for other people to do the same thing. Yes. It's blocking. Right? Yeah blocking or increasing the cost or yeah. Whatever. It'll reach your comforts. Just around that. Yep. Yeah. Also,
tier og work replacement. I had to double check because you're replacing workers but it's for drafting. It's listed as hand management, open drafting and worker replaced. Me. Yeah. So that's a kid... That's a good 1. So I would argue, you could you could say it... Has some flavor of a worker placement mechanism, I would not call that a worker placement game. I don't... No. No. It says I'm not taking a clear action by putting my worker some place. I am. It's more almost a bidding feel. Or
or drafting sure. Sure. Now, just to be clear, though, it's just listed under mechanisms. It's not looking Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Genre. You know? I mean... But maybe I'm... Yeah. No. Yeah. It's we're Okay. I guess we're trying to think about, like, what what the game is not what the game has. Yeah. Yeah. Like what is the core definition of it. Right? Like, what is when you look at the game if you said, this game, Like, to me, Stone age is Like, everything that drives Stone just work replacements.
Like, every action you take in the game is only done via worker placement. Via via putting those workers somewhere. Yeah. Right? Like, everything thing is you battling for the space. You are placing a thing that you're calling a worker. Right. But if if I said, I wanna play a worker replacement game and someone plop down turn in og. I'd be really surprised. Yeah. Oh, yeah Yeah. If somebody said I wanna play a draft game, I would feel more comfortable In no totally
say, oh, yeah. Okay. This is cool. This is scratches my address. And, obviously, hand management is like the core of the game because you've got cards and every round you're gonna get new cards, you have to play some cards and you're gonna have to check a card at the end, which starts off real cozy and by the you're just swearing, so... Yeah. Yeah. I was actually saying to someone when I was teaching them. I said, this game is a lot like a rolling right in that you continually just lose options
throughout the game. Like, it just the options get worse and worse the farther you go, which is what people tell me rolling rates are supposed to do. I like do not do that, but that's what people tell me they're supposed to do. So... Yeah. So Emily, you brought up action select So maybe this would be a good 1 for actually comparing contrast. What what games come to mind when we hear action selection. Well, Puerto Rico. Because this is only a game I know apparently.
But, no. I... So I'm... Yeah. The first 1 I think of is San juan, which is the card game version, which I prefer of the 2, but they're, like, doing a similar thing there. Yeah. So the reason I have this, like an is because prior to the high ts, I call it a set collection game. Yeah. It's heart it is set collection. And then... But the thing that sort of drives that is a action selection that looks like a work replacement. And so I don't know how to talk
about it. And so I'm always saying, it's got this little work replacement action selection thing going on that you do here on the pirate ship. Right? And I think that's probably the right way to do it. Because you like, regardless, if we... If we came in here this is the definition. That doesn't do anything. You know? Because that doesn't affect what people... What what we're trying to think think of is what are the connotation Yeah. So that. So I think the thing for me for action selection
is... So to me, work replacement is you tend to be placing in a physical area where where you go mean something. Right? So I go to the quarry to get rocks. Right? I go to the house to knit my sweater. Whatever it is that I'm doing. To me, action selection, I'll go back to Puerto Rico is saying this turn I'm going to unload my ships. Right? And I'm the only 1 who gets to do that because, apparently, this is how ports work. But, like, when you take the action, generally, no 1 else
can take it. I think that this is oh, what's that huge forex game? Oh, I don't know. The really famous Forex x game that, like, takes forever twilight Imperium, maybe. That 1 has that 1 has an action selection as well. Where, like, you take the thing, and no 1 else gets to take that action. And so I think that piece there. The other thing that I like about action selection is I usually associate it with,
turn order differences. Right? So in work replacement, on my turn, I go to the quarry, I take rock it's your turn, you go to the woods you take wood. But when it's action selection, I pick my action and that slots me into a turn order. Usually where now I might be going later, you know, there's some... There's this disconnect of sort of when I choose versus when I take, whereas work replacement, I think is has a very strong you place and you take immediately. Yeah. Thoughts.
I agree that that is the... At as a default, I agree. I think there's a lot of room in there for But in this 1, you know, there's a lot of... We're all gonna pick... We're gonna do worker replacement, and then we're gonna resolve them in this or other order. That certainly happens. But again, we're just trying to do genre and broad feel as opposed to the nitty gritty of the mechanism, so people are gonna say, well, that's action selection. That's role
selection. I don't think message dot prep. That's what I was gonna say. So I I looked on here because I might choice for this was gonna be citadel for action selection. That's the core of the game, but some ways are launch role selection. It's an activity. But yeah. I didn't see role selection on the list. So roll selection to me is like a specific version of action selection because why did you pick the role? Because you wanna do something? I think it's also a specific version.
It mc mechanically speaking, it's a it's a specific version of worker placement. It is it is... Way back to back to. I don't even know what episode number to call back to. The episode on iso morph. It is iso morph to worker placement with 1 worker per person and right. And, yeah, that's the same, but it feels way different. What if we just call it worker selection? Let's just put when I hear it that's when you get more workers. But I... No. You have to use the you have
to use the mating for that. In Yeah. So in the... Immediately, next turn, they are full grown and ready to do 1. So I... But I... What I... The definition that I really like, though, that Emily said is, like, I guess to boil it down, workers is putting things out there to get things, selection or action selection wherever is taking things away. Like, we're... You are taking something to get something. So to me, in that case, action selection is really just the second half of work placement.
Sometimes you just skip the worker replacement parts or no. Worker placement is the first step of some action selection games. Alright. Let me let me add a foot further wrinkle to this. Oh, When I when I hear action selection, I don't think about what you're describing at all. Because my assumption before it gets clarified is that this is going to be a simultaneous action selection. What? Oh so something like l talia, for example, or So hot... Tell me because
please. Where everyone everyone's got a set... Let's say everyone's got a set of cards. They got the same set of cards. Oh, everyone's gonna pick 1. That's the action we're picking, and we're gonna reveal. You know, that And I think action selection can clearly mean both things to people, but it's a it's a difficult term for me to use but because that... That's where your cla your still. Right? Because, like, that's simultaneous
action selection. Right. But I'm saying that for me, if I don't hear the the clarification that it isn't. That's what I'm going to assume you mean. Oh, sorry I think. Yeah. You go ahead. No. No. Go ahead. Go ahead. I enough. I mean, I think there's also been, like, the scythe thing right, of, like, we'll all have to select our actions, but you can't do the 1 that you did last time. Right? I'm like, this action selection. That's part of scythe. Right? Or programming
games. I didn't even have that on the list. That's another, like, flavor of that where... That's your you're slot in. These are the actions I'm going take in this order, and then we're gonna do them in order. And and my plans are gonna I go to hell because I never never played 1 of those games or where it's not just embarrassing. Like you played I think Red Dragon in maybe or something like that or no. It wasn't that. It's some game where you fight in
its accent selection. Oh, yeah yeah. Pretty much what happened for most of the game was people punched the air and kick the air and swung through the air. And somebody I played a robot game where you, like, program these paths, and you just kept practicing into everything. We we may have just been really bad at it. Rally probably. Might been... Yeah. The to me, the those can be really fun, a lot of it is mindset, but the ones that work the best for me are the ones where There's just a little
bit of fuzz. So River Dragons was 1 I liked quite a bit, but you're you're picking... Like, we if it's a case where you're picking say 3 things and the first 2 are probably gonna go about what you wanted and the third one's a little bit iffy, Like, that feels... That's through like the sweet spot for me. Yeah. That feels good. Yeah.
Okay. So anyway, that I was just calling that out is I don't I don't tend to use that term without qualifier because, action selection because I think it can mean a couple quite different things. Well, and it doesn't feel like worker replacement has the same squish to it, like, it feels Correct. Worker placement feels much more fully. So I I think you're right. Back what you said that I just need to call pirates. It's not a worker placement slash action selection. I can't
decide. It is a worker placement action selection mechanism. Right? It is that type of action selection. There's a there's a game called Village just a little older now. About other you played that 1? No. It's it's a game that kinda opened my eyes to this because in that... In this game, There are places on the board that have little cubes on them, and you have a set of little mee, your workers. And during the course of the game, you put those... Workers on the board.
And there are effects of that. And what I realized after a while is that it is a worker placement game, but the worker placement is not you placing the workers. The worker placement is that the main mechanism is you remove 1 of those cubes from a spot and you do that thing. No interesting. And that is the blocking thing. That is actually the worker placement. You you just happened to also have little people that go on the board, but those isn't but those... Not in that same limited sense.
And so it was just I just pulled up that game, Jonathan, and the first thing that comes up is a picture of a graveyard with open graves where you put your peoples because they're dead. Yes. And you score points for that. Yes. They get older through, various mechanisms and you score points for having the most prestigious graves. Some amazing. Why. Yeah. So So genres are hard y'all. Yeah. I mean, I feel better about work placement and more like, oh, action selection feels a
little like the wild. But, like, I think what I'm taking away from it is action selection doesn't mean as much to a lot of people. Mh. Whereas as worker replacement, I think I think it evo, it's more evo. Yeah. You you know... I think when I hear worker plays, not only do I think, okay. I'm gonna have some people, but I think it's gonna be a game where I'm probably just trying to do my own thing, but I'm gonna get in another people's way. Yeah. Indirect conflict right There's gonna be some brink
ship of... Yep. I wanna wait until that thing gets j, but I can't wait too long because Someone's gonna take it. Yep. Yeah. Sweet. Alright. I think Alright. We've beaten those in into the ground. Someone picks something they like. I wanna know what queen games are. Oh, okay. I am not an expert in this. Okay. But Here we go. So so this coin isn't in all the caps for the listeners. Yes.
I know that coin, this is this is Me talking without research here that that Coin games are never a game I'm going to ask to play. I I believe I have played some. Because they tend to be long, and I... And that's the first thing that raises an eyebrow for. I like short games. Coin stands for counter ins search. Oh, the model often usually model real life conflicts where with with very different factions, very asymmetric factions. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So is everything Avalon hill ever made? It's more modern than that, I believe. Yeah. Okay. It's a subset of war games. Right? Or Adjacent to war games. It's, like, think you can say that, but not But I hear war. Okay. War games is a good 1, because your game, I immediately assume unless it's qualified that it's probably going to be like a miniature miniature game, like something where I'm gonna have to measure stuff.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is not fun. But it doesn't have to be because war is way broader than that, but that's the first thing that comes to mind. I assume it's gonna be some sort of simulation and that it will fall into 1 of 2 categories. 1 of its historical you know, reinvent, recreation or maybe some sort of fantasy, you know, Fantasy realm. Right? That's where I feel like war games live for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This may be, I may be mis remembering
this. Was there some debate about whether root was a coin game? Yes. Yeah. So I think that that definitely is. So in terms of we got these very asymmetric factions that are doing their own. I'm just looking through the list of these these games that I don't want to play. Liberty or death, the American interaction, falling sky, the gallic revolt against Caesar. Cuba libre. Yeah. Yep. So very well respected games for people who like that sort of thing.
So, yeah. So I I'm am not going to step in it by trying to say what the qualifications there there are, but this is something to be aware of, I guess as a genre. Yeah. But, yes. I would say, definitely a subset of war game, but but But when I hear War game, the first thing that comes to mind minis, which I know is a tiny subset of the war game pants on. You got a lot of them that are much more discreet as opposed to continuous there. I I will say I also think of dice rolling. In war.
Right? Then, like, what's gonna happen is determined by the role of a dice or a die. Yeah. Yeah. Even some... From what I understand, like, war games that you might run, like, professionally. Right? Like, with, like, you know, you just gotta sometimes you make a random choice. Right? So there are Rng g's in in in war games is my understanding. I don't play war games though. So
Yeah. And I've... You know, I there was a also, you know, the card driven war games of, you know, twilight struggle, and I have suffered through some, 3 to 4 hour games of, There's only 3 to 4 hours? Labyrinth Thor on terror. Which was I I am glad that I have done it. Don't It's so much darker than I can to do it again. I can must for my evening. So, yes. So perhaps we should go back into more of the territory of things that we do play. Alright. I'm I'm gonna ask a question here.
Party games. Yeah. Okay. So what's a party game? It's a game that when you play, it feels like you're at a party. K. So we can probably move on from that 1. I mean, that's close. I'd say, That's not bad. So I think of party games as 1 where you can play with a lot of people. Mh. Right? So a high player count. I'm gonna list Trades victory. Yep. High interrupt but very small units of fun. Right? Where you can do a assurance, then everyone can go get a drink, You can come back and do another
round. Right? So I think of these, like, sort of round based things. I also think of ind determining length Right? You can play to. That's nice. That's really good. That's 1 of the things that I, like, usually try to work into party games where I'll say. Here's how long you can play. Like, here's a timer meg time mechanism of. Everybody gets to do this 1 rule. But really just play till you feel like you're done. Because Oh, in the points don't matter. Like, that's,
you know. Yeah. Like, there is a scoring mechanism that is not necessary because you wanted to feel like a game not an activity. You do you... Or do you want it to feel like an activity and not a game if the points don't matter. The bet... Won't, but see, that's the, like, this the number 1 rule. I you're saying. You're saying the points are there in order to. The points they're because they matter to some people And Yes. In the way to trick, like, hobby gamers,
not people like us because we're cool. But, like, hobby gamers that are little more like, I don't know. The sn? Yeah. That's. Thank you. That's what I looking for. Hobby games is it a little more sn about their the games they would choose. They are less likely to just play a game. They're the ones that would say this is a game. This is an activity again because there's no way to win. There's no points. Gotcha you throw a score in to make them happy. The score does not matter, except for to them.
And that's about it. You know, I... I remember somebody saying, like, If you're concerned about who's winning this game, you you're not understanding the game. Like, you don't get it. Like, can I thought, Yeah? That feels accurate. For a lot of party games... Party games is are especially good 1 because it it highlights the fuzz of these of all of these definitions that I think we could come up with probably 4 or 5 ish qualifying questions or qualities that make something a party game.
And a lot of them will fail some of these tests, and we would all still call it a party game. So we talked about number of players accepted. Yeah. High player count. High player count or plenty of single player count. Okay high slash flexible. Okay. High slash flexible player count. Performance, I'd say, games where games have a performance element. It doesn't have to have a performance. It certainly it doesn't have to you Yeah Exactly. But if it does, that's a... It's feels
Probably party adjacent. Probably party adjacent. Yeah. It's there's there's an element of game weight that goes with this. So that's really a separate thing. You know, whether a game is complex or not if it's a party game it really can't be complex. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. But there are more complex games I've played that I would say, well, that's just a complex party game. It's a party game except for the fact that it's complex. What's the example of that?
Pick, picked man is... I mean, wouldn't I wouldn't say it's, like, heavy. But for a party game, it's heavy. It's a game. It's 1 of the, I think it's a Cg of a lot of, I think, game that is is it's multiplayer dictionary. So you get a list of of words on the table. Everyone sees them. Everyone draws a card secretly that tells them which of those words they're drawing, and everyone draws all at the same time. And whenever you want to, you can put slap your guesses down on everyone else's drawings.
And you decide how to allocate your time, the earliest person to guess right on each player gets most points. So If you decide when you're drawing is good enough, that you can stop and focus on guessing other peoples. But if your drawing is bad and one's gonna guess yours, you're not gonna get points. The points are all in... The the scoring rules are all important to incentivize the right behaviors, but they're not trivial, and it's not a game for non gamers
at all. Mh. But the feel of it is hundred percent party game. Right. That's like code names. So, I mean, Code names Code. Yeah. I'm look at just 1 party party game. Like, I think I think it's a party game because it is a game, like, To me the most quintessential definition of a party game is, would you play it with a gathering of friends, especially friends who aren't super gamers. Right? Not how gamers? And code names is the fringe of that
because Yeah. Like, for me It really only need 2 people who are good at games to play code names. Those are the people who are gonna be your your spy masters or whatever. Everyone else can just suck. That's why there's a team, you know, Mi code names is decidedly in the non party game. So I mean, I I think that if there was, like, a serious party game section. What would what would you call... What would you call code games that? I don't know. It's a word game.
Definitely a word. Oh, see. But it's to me. It's less of a word game than most word games because you're not writing downwards words. You're not... I don't know. Like, I... I have an idea. Is it a social deduction game? Oh we're d reducing a social setting? I'll see myself out now. Jason likes so mad. Frankly, I like that better than a word game. Wow. Because jamie a word game is a word as a game where you're making or altering or doing something like that with words.
Okay. So there are... Wow, these are just kinda flowing in 1 to the next. Word games, I would say there are 2 distinct camps of word games. There are word games. You are the define on this for sure. There are word games that are games about effectively spelling. There are art lithography games. And there are games about definitions. Is it is it the the semantics of the words? Code names is again about meaning. As is password as is scatter.
Those are these are all these are all word games about meaning as opposed to sc or Quid. Yep. Or... Letter jam. Letter jam. Qui we're 1 of the ones that I think of, like, quintessential word games Yes. Oh, so I think word games applies to 2 very different categories of games. I... Yeah. I still think code names is less about the meanings of the words and more about how were your friends like, knowing how your friends connect different concepts. And knowing if your friends are stupid or not.
I I am still Robbed because 1 time in John You remember this, I gave a clue to Rob that was the single greatest clue ever given in code names. The the 2 words I needed in the guess, were gold and spike. And you can give a proper noun as a word even if it's multiple words. So I said promo point Utah. Is gucci ultimate. Till everyone knows is where the railroads connected with a golden spike. You knew that right, Jonathan? I did not know that, but I maybe get it from context.
I know the golden bike part. I wouldn't have known the location. Rob did not know that. And and it became a real point of contention. It's probably why that on the show anymore. It really it really, you know, for years was just this, you know, teething teething rage that Hand underneath. Specific knowledge is always a problem with code names. I I had a friend who got really angry because, no 1 was able to guess his intended target of Turkey when he gave the the clue transit.
Because because there's a ford transit manufacturing plant in Turkey. That that is awful. But so all of this, this sort of storytelling about the game. Party party. Right? Well, it's definitely a game that tells a story. Yeah. Yep. But... Not a storytelling game, Jonathan, don't even try. But if you... But if you observe a group playing code names. Though moments of laughter Mh are going to be rare between long periods of silence.
I. I... So I used to bring party games to work from my team to play, and we wanted the feedback from my 1 of my teammates who loved playing games. She was like, I hate this game because we just sit here and stare at each other, and it's boring. And Yeah. I will give that code names is incredibly boring, sometimes. So... So I I will say so every year a Pax season, I think all the packs is they do the Omega, which is, like, a gaming competition And so we go and watch most of
it, always the final. And 1 year the final was competitive code names, and it was the worst final to watch. Right? And there was this whole thing of, like, our people stalling because it's timed because it's, like, a live thing. And so are people stalling and pretending to think really hard for their full 30 seconds because they wanna run out the clock for the next person. Like, it was this it
was silence. Whereas normally, that is, like, rockets and you're, like, watching people do stupid things and playing bad pac man or you know, keep talking and nobody blows up, You know, any of these games, and then you're, like, oh, they chose code names. That's Sounds like a great idea though. Like, shirt up. Yeah. I get it. But it's... I also completely understand why it's not. I mean, 1 of the most fun times I ever had was that Gen con playing code names of the group,
the first time when... The first year came out. And we just had a table and in 1 of the big halls where you can... Out, like, you know, open gate... Well. Chen kinda doesn't have open gaming. It was a table we took that no 1 was using, and people just kept walking up and joining a team and then, like, leaving, and that was fun. Because no 1 knew what was going on. And it was just kind of silly, but we had a great time.
Yeah. Yeah. But III have not played code names in a while and I get it because it is it is a lot of sitting around in silence. So is our Trivia games party games? No. They're Trivia games, Jonathan. It's in the name. Trivia game, I think our trivia again a subset. I don't know, I think they I think Trivia games are a subset of party games. I think they're usually a subset. Yeah. That's like, you know, the storytelling or the... The apples to apples is a whole genre
in itself. And most of it is garbage but some of it is good. Clearly part of games. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's really party games. I... I mean, unfortunately, I think the game that, you know, apples apples was a success. But, I mean, we all know that it was cards humanity that really blew that genre up. But unfortunately, I also think they're the ones that took it down too. Right? They were the peak of it. And then they just dragged down into the dirt, and, you know, because everyone wanted to copy
that. Right? Like copying apples to apples is 1 thing, copying dirty apples to apples or mean apples to apples over and over and over again. That just gets tiring by a third game. Right? Know it's like, season 47 of the walking dead, like, zombies are still popular, but everyone is just like, come on. Maybe you might have just been me. But So similarly, since we're talking about what genres might
live under party games. Right? I can't think of a trivia game that I wouldn't put under party games, but I'm curious your thoughts on social deduction, and whether that lives under party games. Like, are all social deduction games, party games? I don't think I don't think so. No. I I think. Not the 1 that's not a party game. Yeah. No. I don't know, Jonathan name 1. I don't tend to gravitate toward them, so this is a little h harder for me. Let's I'm starting starting with the obvious ones of
guess who resistance? Like, resistance. So like think of the resistance compared to werewolf. Werewolf is solidly partying game to me. Mh. Mh The resistance, I would say less so on this continuum. Still probably more party game than not. Right. But it's starting to be more deduction and less social. You know, those those both those 2 aspects aren't. I feel like party game should stress you out. Because you're embarrassed to make a fool of yourself. And the resistance stresses you out at least
me because I just... It was just it was a lot happening. Like, then... I it was people were dying, but the... Let's see. The... There there are games that especially if they crossover over between between genres get fuzz even even there. So let's see. For example, Tanner Simmons game inside job is a social deduction game. It's also a trick taking game. It is definitely not a party game. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. Okay. I think here's the best way I could describe it by title.
These are both social deduction games that I just made up off top my head. I'm gonna pitch them, but these are the titles of these 2 social exchange. You're not going to pitch them together there. I have our list already. Okay. Covert ops, to me sounds like a social deduction game. Covert mop sounds like a party game. And you'd like to fit back. That sounds great. I do kinda of wanna make a game with a lot of pictures. Like, is that a mop? Is it is it a motto
or a no? Is it something else? I was just picturing him mop in a Fedora. Yeah. It in a trench coat, unlock trench coat in Dora with sunglasses. Yep. Covert mop. Now I really... I'm not gonna... I really wanna make that game. Yeah. So I mean, I... So I brought up this specific combination because I was at a play test of last week, I think.
And someone brought a very fun game that they described to us in the sort of, you know, give 1 sentence on your game before we all break out as a social deduction game and our advice to that designer was when you go pitch this, which you should pitch because it's a fabulous game, you should pitch it as a party game. A party game that uses social deduction as opposed to a social deduction game because I think it's gonna get you the wrong Mh. Attention. Right. And it... Which it it fact
very clearly party. Which goes back to the core of why we're having this conversation because it doesn't matter if you're right. It matters. Yeah. What how other people will react to the term? Right. Yeah. What are the connotation of that? If people if people hear party game, they they think of... They don't think about the mechanisms that make something a part of a game. They think about the atmosphere in which you're playing the game. Mh. Yep.
Yep. Alright. I think that's probably good for now our definition games part. We have so many more for next time. And we'll think of games that Jonathan neglected to put on the list. Because it's hard to find good help these days. And yeah... So okay. So we're gonna do the same thing last time where I went to chad Gp and asked it to create names of games. It's gotta list of 10. I'm gonna read them, and then y'all can pick 1 and then pitch that. So... But I wanna tell you the process I
with through. I'm only gonna read you the last version of the names. But so we kept adding more game type. So I said, create intentionally bad names for a complex war game that combines work replacement, action selection, and Coin, which it's called counter on its own, mechanics, do that for me. Right? So it did. And then I said... And then somebody was like, but it's gotta be a party. So I said, great. Take that list give it a subtitle that tells me it's a party game.
And And then we started talking about word games real quick. So I said... Now add a second subtitle that makes it a word game as well. So okay. Here are the games. And 2 of these names are gonna make Emily laugh a lot. Number 1. Tea party tactics, the most civilized warfare ever a battle of words. Number 2. Board at the Barracks. Game night gone wrong, phrase warfare. Okay okay. No. Number 3, knit and conquest. Yarn for victory. Stitch and spell.
Number 4, suburban struggles, a erased, h hoa showdown extra letter blitz. Oh, this is funny, because this actually is a game on number 5 Picnic Panic, ants, allies and Anarchy. Word picnic. Garden No Gorillas, gorillas as in gorilla Warfare, lawn order mayhem, No culture, No nomenclature clutch. But it did as no. Like it did. Yeah. It did nomenclature do. Yeah. Wow. Laundry line liberation, sox, and sabotage, word wash out.
Bureaucracy accuracy battles, paperwork party pin, lexi ledger, Mundane Militia, the neighborhood watch game, sent in siege. And finally, cubicle conflict, office prank and Power plays, office word play. I will reread any ones that you remember as sounding funny too. I am drawn first to cubicle conflict, laundry liberation and the knit 1. Knit it conflict. Get it knit in whatever that was called. I'm in for those although I would add suburban struggle to the list just because I
grew up in the suburbs. I'm I'm open to that. When I when I heard... I actually... I heard the word suburban and tuned out immediately because it felt like every other every other board game, but I think you could probably do an interesting take on it. Okay. Wait. So we had the suburban struggle we had. What was the knit 1? Knit and conquest yarn for victory, stitch and spell. Okay. And then over the other 2? Cubicle something?
Cubicle conflict, office springs and power plays, office word play, and laundry line liberation, sox spies and sabotage word wash out. Has there been any any games you can think of about laundry lines like that like, you're drying your drying your laundry. Covert mop is close. Mh but that's probably the closest button better. I don't know. Cubicle. How do you think Cubicle? Cubicle is great. Alright. Read read that title again? Cubicle conflict, office prank and power plays, office word play.
Office play power plays. Okay. And you're challenging us here, Jason to incorporate, like, 6 genres in 1 Well, I mean, that is what the name implies. So All the information is on the task, Jonathan. Alright. Have you worked in a cubicle, Jonathan? I do work... Well, I work in a semi cubicle, low wall cubicle. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So cubicle prank. I'm just gonna start from what I know. Right? So there's the leg wrap everyone's stuff in wrapping paper. There's the, like, fill it with balloons.
There's the, like, steal their stuffed animal that's on the on the wall or whatever there's... But there were something about letters in their word play. So what if it's like, writing messages on, like, their whiteboard or on there, You know, how I can like, pin stuff into this the the the fabric sides of their cubicle wall. Right? So maybe you're writing, like, dirty messages or mean messages or something. On people's walls.
Yeah. So it is hard, but not impossible to combine word games with other things because, you know... Like, how are the words Are we talking about words being used again? Are we are we gonna do the the spelling side of things or the meeting side of things? The advantage... The spelling side of things is easier to have kind of yeah, just like, a more objective scoring criteria. Yeah. When you go with meeting, it's either you're either doing judging or you're doing some sort of guessing
usually. Yeah. Let's let's do spelling because that feels easier to to roll my that around right now. It could be if if we're just gonna try to incorporate that in some way, it could be, like, cards or tiles that have letters or fragments of words or even whole words that that have points when chain together in certain ways. Yeah. That's that's nice way to incorporate that kind of thing. Yeah. Of course, there's always, like, the little, like, poem tiles, which now we're getting it to meaning.
Yeah, you know, like, the fridge... The fridge poem tiles. Yeah. Alright. So let's tell the story of the game. Who who are we and what are we doing? And then we can figure out how we making that into a game. Oh, okay. So we work in cubicle. Right? I think that's where whatever. Engineers, office workers, and we are trying to be... I mean, we're trying to be crowned, you know? Are we trying are we trying to pass a time and get through a boring job? Are we
trying to achieve success at the job? What what is our motivation you think? I was thinking we were trying to get named, like, class clown or something like that. Yeah. Maybe while don't know if it's well not getting caught by the boss. Right? But there's something about, you know, you wanna be... You wanna be really good at prank. And also not getting trouble for it.
Okay. Alright. Cool. So... Because the so the power plays thing does it isn't as strong probably there, but I think it's a good canvas to work on. So so Power plays were war game, what if we're different departments? In Cubicle. Right? And so our war game is we are trying to control the most cubicle because that makes our department stronger. And we do this through prank. Okay? Okay? Maybe... Maybe, you're trying to get...
Okay. So you're pulling the prank on the boring people in the office that you want... Do you want them to request transfers out other departments so that your friends can sit in the places next to you. There we go. So we've got, like... So we're office bullies. I like. So we're we're... Yeah. So so we're are starting... This could be a
geographically based game. You got a board with all the cubicle in the cubicle farm, and we're starting in different places and kinda growing out from there as we. Yes. Yeah. Love it. And so, like, I'm marketing and your I don't, engineering. Right? Whatever it is. Right? Yeah. But. Quality, your quality and I'm marketing let's yeah. Okay. Yes. So the things that you can play then you have a... You'll have a target, and
you... We could do maybe some kind of your area control or something like that for for claiming, basically claiming territory mechanically. But Mh. Them, irritating this person. Yes. And so I think I think you play prank. Right? So there's gotta be a series of, like, escalating prank. Where, like, 1 is, like, you misplaced their pens. Right? And 2 is, like, you coat everything in tin foil. Right? Whatever it is that you... So, like, you have to choose the strength of your prank.
And then maybe there's something where, like, Can you how do you defend? Can you, like, fortify your team with, like, inspiring notes on the fridge? I don't know. I'm trying to bring words back into it. Well, maybe you don't defend. Maybe this is A race to claim the neutral
stuff. Yep. And moment. The the spatial aspect comes in because it's a cube farm, so you're gonna have a certain number of neighbors and the more of those neighbors are you, the easier it is for you to team up, like, quote, team up with yourself. And And. And from different angles, you're doing different different little Json on this person. Yeah. So I like it. I like it. Sorry Go
ahead. What you're gonna say? Yeah. So, like, maybe a turn is your clearing a target and based on the geography of the office that affects what you do to try to turn it. Yeah. So so we had work replacement in there. So you've got your little army of office minions. Right? And so presumably, you know, you place a person to say which cubicle you're targeting. Right? That's how you target.
And maybe there are some supply spaces where, like you go to get tape and tin foil or wrapping paper, Whatever it is your using balloons. Right?
So we've got some work replacement in, like, how many people do you want executing the prank versus getting the supplies for the prank because presumably a more ornate prank will take more people to do it, whereas you could send lots of people to like, steal pens from lots of cubes, So we have cards that describe the various things that have have needed criteria. Yeah. And you can only execute those Maybe you don't even even get the stuff.
You can only execute those things if you have your workers on all of those spots when it comes time. So... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're all placing our stuff, and then that becomes the menu of which cards can be activated that turn. Yeah. And so you could defensive block someone by going to the tape closet. Right? So they can't do their frank that involved tape, but then they can pivot to something else that involves some of the same things. Yeah.
And we could have a a card draft of some sort where you are the inspiration. So Where you somehow have control over do I go for the I'm just going to stick a bunch of post notes on their monitor, and all I need is post it notes. Yep. Or I can do the more elaborate crank that requires me to have drawn on all of them with different colors of markers or whatever. And I'm risking not not having all those things when I want to do it?
Yes. Yes. So there can be... Yeah. Either you pivot to a different card or each card could have, like, a set of upgrades or downgrade grades. Right? The the holy grail of this 1 is, you know, x y and z. But if you can only do x, here's here's what it does.
Alright. So cubicle conflict is a game of office prank and Power, in which you try to get inspiration by, for for the most elaborate prank to play on your cubicle neighbors in order to get them to move out and have your friends take their place. And you're gonna do this by getting inspired for these prank and then preparing to do them by sending your
colleagues your colleagues. Yeah. Yeah. 2 2 various places in the office to the kitchen and into the supply closet into the printer into the copy machine to get the things that they need. But while you're doing so, Everyone else is trying to do the same thing and getting in your way. Mh. Mh. Yeah.
And then yeah. And then based on how many desks you turned you might be getting some points or you might toward victory or you might just be getting more colleagues that can help you get stuff next time. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And I think you can also leave passive aggressive notes on places, and that absolutely to somehow, and that's how we make it a work game. How would that? It helps... You put them on the fridge, You put them on and then it helps you make it a
word game. Oh, totally the the prank could be on the things that were you're getting supplies. Yes. There you go. So you you demo them by putting passive aggressive notes on the printer. So rather than getting territory by getting another cubicle and another worker that I can use next time. Maybe I spend my time making the the printer or print everything upside down or something like that. And yes. And then no 1 can use that 1 next time or something. Yes.
There we go. That's good. That's good. This is good. Would you sign it, Jason? I definitely sign it to my company that doesn't exist for publishing big crazy party word games that Follow Covid games. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this was another fun time to defining things. I enjoyed it. I look forward to doing it again. And the not too distant in future, later this year. I am sure we will do this again.
Yeah. So Jonathan, how can people get in touch with you if they would choose to do so for some reason? Go to the chapters dot com slash news. And there are links there to either join my discord or sign up for my mailing list where I sent out a pack of free puzzles every month. And I will still plug that Jonathan mailing thing is the only thing I actually read most of the time with the mailing I get. So I don't do the all the games and stuff in there, but I do of them and I enjoy it. So Emily.
Yeah. So you can find me on my website ping hawk games dot com. That's my handle on Instagram as well or on discord. I'm Emily keeps kitties. But I know this is coming out right before Gen con. If you're at Gen con, come find me at the flat out booth, booth number 04:03, and check out the giant poster of knit circle and also the game. That will be there, and we're gonna die. Awesome.
Awesome. Well, hey, if you wanna get touch with the podcast, you can go building game podcast dot com or you can email us a building a podcast at gmail dot com. At the website, you will find a link to the discord, which is the best place you can go. Our weekly meetups are lit, fire, whatever it can say, Skip toilet r. I don't know. Oh, what ads. I'm pretty sure it's bad. Because I think you say skip toilet r Ohio maybe. Which all sound like bad things to me. Anyways,
yeah. You can keep coming back every single week. And until next time, good night. Good night. Tonight building the game, building the game, which is france which jason france, building the game, building a game. Which jason and france? Which jason? End not the episode. That's The?