Again at the end of the episode that's technical queen's. Hello, and welcome to building the game a documentary podcast. As sometimes, I am your host, Emily. And today, I am joined by the wonderful Ro Shock. Hey, Ro? Hey, Emily. Good to talk to you again. It's been like, forever. III never see you. I know it's been at least a week. No. It's been less than a week since I spent 6 hours in a car with you driving to Ohio. So Yeah. Whatever will we talk about, I haven't seen you in forever.
Well, I mean, luckily, we do have a topic that's not us talking about being in a high. So I think we'll be alright. That's true. If you listen to 2 episodes ago, you heard all about us being in Ohio together at our booth no. What we're here to talk about today is our... How is the year going? So Ro and I did the kick off the year, what are our plans for 20 24.
And, Jason was like, hey, Maybe maybe you could also fill us in part way along the way, and we'll do another 1 of these at the end of the year to sort of, put a bow on it, a Christmas or New Year's bow as it were. Some sort of bow, a not a denomination bow. I don't know. A bow. I'll put a partridge. Yeah on it. Exactly. 1 partridge. Yeah. So Ro, why don't you kick us off with you know, a reminder of what you were trying to do this year? Yeah. Yeah. So, I went back and and listened.
I mostly remembered, but, the 1 I forgot slightly. I... That's the 3 things. I don't... I will just kinda do 1 at a time. And we can go back and forth a little bit, but I'd said, the 3 things I wanted to work on this year is I wanted to pitch more. I a bunch of designs that are pitch and hadn't been as good about getting a meeting set up with people. So I wanted to fix that. I said I was gonna help a friend with their kind of game company. The 1 about art and culture and games
and and that stuff. That was number 2. And number 3 that I was considering starting a small publishing company myself, with 2 player... Yeah. 2 player games, small box, small price, And yeah. So I'll just start with the first 1. I'm sure we'll get into the other ones later. Yep. The... So So far, Would give myself like, a b minus on this.
Was a performance review? Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, III have this on on my, like, Twitter profile, but, intros inspection is a super superpower, So it's always good to be reflective. So, yeah, I would say, I I did end up going to gamma, which was, Gamma Expo. Hadn't been planned in January when I had made this and I also did end up going to Detachment con.
And, actually, I did some pitching at both of those, and actually, 1 publisher, has a couple of of games from Gamma that Ended up sending later. And there's a little bit of snap too. That won't make it a long story, but, like, I... They said they wanted to copy the 2 games, so boxed it up Fedex sit out there. They fat they. They the Fedex said it delivered, and then, like, you know, big publishers get busy and it's, like,
couple weeks later they're like, hey. We can't find that we moved offices and it's gone. And I'm like, oh my god. The 1 was just a car game. Like, that was a big deal, but the other 1 was, like, a much more difficult prototype to make. It had some custom pieces in it I was like, oh my god. But, actually, So yep, I... They... They... It messaged me a couple weeks before origins, and I was like, listen, I'll get you 1, but you're gonna have
to wait to have to order it. They have too much stuff to do. And so, actually, I was at Origins, I got an email that they said, someone someone in the company walked in 1 day and said, here's a box. It has your name on it. And it was just the games. So they ended up finding it, but, like, I did order new cards that I now don't need, but whatever. So yeah. So I've I've had some some games go home with publishers, and I've pitched a couple things at On pub. And March.
And some... We had Clarence and I are working on a c design. That's a party aim. Actually, I guess the social introduction game. And so we've had some interest in that from different people, and some people have kicked back or whatever. But, I think I've done some of that. I did try to set some stuff from origins, but I was pretty busy with booth planning, and I didn't really get any responses from the people I did reach out to. So that's that's yeah, not... I didn't do it as
much there as I would... What I wanted them to. I think the big challenge for me is, I'm much more comfortable, like, pitching in person, like, you know, building relationship with people and just, like, Hey. Like, I have this game and and if I have... I tend to have a lot of games with me, so I can, like, easily pivot from game a to game B if, like, they're not interested in that 1. And so, like, I feel more comfortable than.
Some of the... Some people are much better about, like, blind emailing, everybody in the corporate doesn't inc until they get somebody to, like, play it on screen top or something and, like, it's not rejection or anything like that. Like, Don't... If somebody does like my game, that's fine, but that part that's just like, doesn't sound fun to me. It's like, That sounds awful. So, yeah, I I tend to try to do more in person pitching with a little bit of, like, facing a name kind of
sitting and sitting down with somebody. So, yeah. Well, we'll see. I, you know, 1 thing that's... I'm not currently planning to go to Gen con, So I'm not gonna have a chance to pitch there. And so then things kind of, like, thin out a little bit to the rest of the summer. So definitely gotta pitch more packs. I guess I won't get too much into what we're gonna do for the second half of the year. But... Yeah. So I did
do... I'd have done probably more pitching this year than I have any other previous year. So that's a baby step forward, and I need to get better, and I need to send more emails. But, yeah, I don't know. This is a different conversation that that me and you had on the way out to Ohio of, like, you know, what percentage of games ever really got signed when that very first an initial point of contact was a cell sheet. Because, like, to me that seems like that just can't be the the the majority
of things. Right? Like, the that a cell sheet on a cold email like led to a game getting signed. By somebody who's not already well well note in the industry. Right? So... Right. Anyway, I... Yeah. Good. No. No. I just finished finishing that. So, yeah. That was the first thing. I did do better. So good for me. I still have room for improvement, So over to you. Well, so I didn't even do the homework.
I didn't even go back and listen to what I said I was gonna do this year because I was like, I know what I said I was gonna do this year. I don't know what Said I was gonna do this year. But I'm gonna follow along with this thread, and I've got some notes as well. So I know 1 of the things that I've been trying to do is build a larger backlog of games, like, a larger library so that I have stuff to pitch, and I would not even give myself a b
plus on that. I would give well, I don't know if I'd give myself a grade on it. I would say, opportunity for improvement. But I... I've learned. I've learned a bunch of stuff. Right? So these past 6 months, you know, I spent a lot of time focusing on some publishing stuff. So I focused a lot more on pirates of the high teens and knit circle, because knit circle was going through development the first quarter of this year.
And as was pirates, So, basically, I did development for a lot of time during the first half of the year, which I can certainly talk about but I I didn't find that I had as much time to work on new games. I did Well, I think most people know. I quit my job, midway through midway through the,
the the first craft of the year. And so So there's been more time, but there was also a lot of, like, you know, I had to, like, wrap things up at my job, and I had a bunch of travel, and I had a bunch of, like, personal and family things that happened that, you know, take time and energy and things like that. So, you know, I had hoped that coming into Gen con, I always gonna have 3 or 4 new games that
I could take around and pitch. And, realistically, I'm gonna have 1, which is cutting flowers And I don't know if I'm gonna pitch that because it feels very in line with, the Peacock games brand. And so that might just be 1 that I'm gonna put on my own docket, which again was not the plan. The plan is to pitch as well. I did spend a bunch of time on a game that I ended up putting on the shelf, So I think that was a great
experience. A great learning, a great sort of understanding my own process us and how long it takes me to work through a game. I I think realistically, I don't have a game ready in less than 3 months. Like, I just, I I can't get it through my whole process to where I'm comfortable showing it to a publisher in less than 3 months. So I think for me that puts unplugged on the radar as sort of the next big pitching opportunity and that also gives me a little bit of, like, breathing room.
That being said, I've got some other designs that I was working, right, like cross stitch and good kitties that I just haven't gotten an opportunity to test in about 3 months here. In part because, you know, I was having I'm having feelings about 1 of them, I had, you know, I sort of ended pub on a rough note with cross stitch. And so I just haven't have the sort of emotional bandwidth to pick
it back up. And then good kitties, I just haven't had the sort of like, I need to sit down and and and work on it. So My, My sort of short term goal for Gen con is to look both of those in the eye and see what I can do with them. I I feel good that I may be able to have a revamped version of cross stitch ready for Gen con where I do have an opportunity to show it. To some folks. And then again, good kitties is probably gonna be in
the hawk line. And so you know, that also feels like I get to set the timeline on that now because I've pitched it to myself. And me as the publisher said, yes, I I do wanna publish that at some point so so I think that's the piece that I hadn't quite expected. So I I really thought I was gonna have, like, 5 new games by now, and I and I don't, but I do feel like I have a more realistic sense of what it takes for me. To bring a new game forward. And so that that makes me feel pretty
good. And I and I'm I'm excited about cutting flowers. I think it's got legs, and so I... It's 1 I can... I'm excited to see through. So so have I pitched to anybody? No. I have not might I pitch to someone at Gen? Yes. I might. But I do not have a backlog of 5 games. I have 1 new game. But it's a game I'm very excited about, and I did work on a couple others and put them on the shelf and so that's progress. In my mind.
Yeah. For sure. I mean, that's something that if people have heard me on the podcast are in person different times, like, I always say that 1 of 1 of the more difficult things in game design especially, you know, as the designer out there pitching stuff, is to, like, keep momentum. And so anything you can do, keep momentum and move anything forward week every week. Great plug for the building the game, Tuesday night, accountability check.
Even if you just come in and say, like, you worked on 1 thing or you fix some cards or whatever, Like, anything you can do and get excited about whether it's a new designer or an old design. Like, sometimes it's a s. Right? Some games are just a pain in the butt. And they just like never do what you want them to. So, yeah. If if if something's making you feel energized about game design or your goals in game design, then, like, do it. That's always my
rule. Don't listen to someone say, Like, if making cook your cards look better, is making you you a happy and moving your game forward, then do it. I don't care what something that sense. I agree. I agree. Should I take the lead on the next topic or do you wanna go back to it? Because you had 3 points so we can go back to your number 2? We can alternate... We can alternate then. That that way, there won't be a long window of somebody listening to me, Ramble.
It'll be be broken up by you say more interesting things. So the second 5 me rambling. So 1 of the other things I said I was gonna do is help a friend who was starting a a different publishing, small publishing company, about the intersection of games and culture and art. And, that's still kind of moving forward, but a lot slower than anticipated.
The the first game that's slated to come out in that line is, a graffiti, you know, New york City, like, tagging subway cars kind of, game with with actual real art from a fairly well known graffiti artist. And so obviously, that's been a major, like, limiting factor for the moving forward of this of this project is,
like, waiting for all the the art. And I think that that's finally mostly been solved, and then this person also is, like, changed jobs and moved, so there's some other the things going on that. I said or earlier that, like, there was a potential that long term maybe be barn quotes might fit into that line, and we had talked about that. And that still may may happen. But since recording the the episode in, January first.
Actually, like, there's another game that we're both really excited about, which is in this line, and didn't exist at the time of this recording. And so I have a game called Mon, which is I'm gonna say... I'm gonna make up a new term. It's an art and right. So... It kinda uses some flipping and right stuff, but you actually make art. If you don't know who Laundry is go look it up. Luckily, it's art for people who can't make art, because all you need to be able to do is use a ruler and color
in a square a rectangle. So pretty easy. But it's kinda like a little spatial puzzle and at the end, if if you haven't played the game or seen pictures of it on Twitter or whatever. The the playing board that you... That you're kinda drawing on as 5 by 7. And so the intent is literally that, like, at the... At the... When you're done, you could cut it out and put it on a. Fridge magnet, and that is the goal that there's gonna be a fridge magnet when this game. Whoever publishes it.
That there's gonna be a 5 by 7 fridge magnet in the box. And her winds gonna get put in the fridge. Right? And so, a, it's very for an giant game very social media friendly, but also, like, it's it's interesting the choices that you do to make scoring and get a better, point in total, but also, artistic choices. Right? So, like, you get to kind of choose where you place things. And
yeah. So it it's definitely 1 of those ones, like, a little bit like, welcome to it and it does kinda borrow 1 mechanism for that a little bit. But where everyone has the same inputs and you all end up with something vastly different, which for art to me is even more cool. So... Yeah. That 1 it's is a easier and b, it's funny because when I first when I first kinda said, to this person, like, hey. I got a game that I think fits this line. I said, and I think you're really gonna like it.
And his response was, like, okay. So was pretty, un uni enthused initially. But, I I forced him to play it at Tantrum Con several other places, and he's done a lot of testing with the 2. And yeah. A lot people played it On pub. I think you played it at gamma Expo. Did. It's a good game. 1. I loved 1. Yeah. Looks important what 1. Yeah. I mean, that's a fact You you always like a gain 20 percent more if you win.
But it's a lot of fun. I I know a lot of people have, like, give give me a lot of really positive feedback. Yeah, that that played it. At pub and stuff too. So that 1, I think is is totally done. We have some variability and some special goals and stuff and, like, So I think that's still we're gonna move forward. We have to kinda wait for all this artwork stuff to check up
catch up, I guess. And then I'll have to talk with him and see, like, when he wants to do the kick kickstarter because I'm gonna help coordinate some of that stuff. Which also is is the thing I wanted to learn more just about, like, how to interface with some of the stuff that Emily will have to deal with too of, like, reviewers and, you know, influencers and, you know, marketing people and and and all that kind of stuff? Like, how do you go from,
like, having this game. You're ready to put it up somewhere, but like, you, I have to do some audience building and figure out your plan for that stuff. So that 1 has gone slow and probably will go slow. So I, it's possible that that game won't even kick start this year. And if it does, it'll be late. But probably early next year. So I would say I've been doing that 1 as much as it has existed to do.
Mh. And I accidentally designed, which wasn't my intent for the modern game to design a game for this line. I had saved a picture on my phone from months ago where, like, I had seen something with his art, Mon art on. And I was like, that should be a game. And, like, over the holiday break, I just said, well, how would work and I just designed it. So was kind of accidental for 2, I guess. So that was my second second goal, which is continuing a pace as they say. That's good. Yeah. I think,
a, I'm just gonna say again. That game is great, and I love it. And I... There's something exciting about when a game comes together that fast. Right? That you know, I've been doing pirates for 2 years now. But knit circle was a breeze. Right? And cross stitch has been a, struggle and, cutting flowers is just sort of flying together. So... And I don't think that, you know, either game is better or worse than the other. It's just sometimes they're
Sometimes they're a hall. Right? And sometimes they just, like, snap into place in a really cool way. So I'm pretty sure 1 of the things I talked about was development, and that I was gonna be doing a bunch of game development at the beginning of this year. And so I figured I'd talk a little bit about that, both from, you know, knit circle, which I was part of the development team, for, I can now say flat out, which is very exciting, because I don't think I could talk about that back in January.
So knit circle assigned to be the follow on game to Calico, so it is knit circle, a calico game. And so bringing it to flat out. Right? It was a it was a sort of breezy tile placement that had a real problem around scoring. Right? In that, I couldn't figure out how to make the scoring such that it was interesting and replay and, you know, all sorts of things. Like, it was the scoring was doing a job, but it wasn't doing a great job.
And so there there was that sort of I knew was on the horizon of we needed to figure out but then working with flat out. Right? They've got, you know, they've got an approach and a style of game that they do and they have an audience that they know well. Right? So there were, you know, some things that they really wanted to bring in that I I was excited to do. Right? But, you know, Calico has sort of 3 ways of scoring. They're like buttons and the the objectives and the the little cat friends
and stuff like that. So we were, addressing the scoring by saying, you know, how can we sort of have multiple scoring systems. Right? So so that's been a really interesting journey. It's been it's had... It's, like, high moments where I'm like, oh, we just made a breakthrough. Right? And it's had. It's like, low moments where I'm, like, I don't know if this will ever converge again. Right? We've... You know, we've taken it apart and, like, put it back
together. And I think it's going in a good direction, but, like, it's hard to see it right now. But, you know, we're we're through it. We are we are I think we're basically done. We're testing the advanced mode right now. But it also added this interesting dynamic of, you know, that team. Is in Seattle on the West Coast and I'm in Boston.
And so we had to do online play testing and stuff like that, And so, you know, it's just been a journey of getting to know a new team and work closely with them, and, you know, they're they're great. I had a great time But, you know, it was also just like, everything's happening. And so so I learned a lot about how to do development and how you know, it's it's in some ways, it's
just like game design. Right? We're, like, you put something in and, like, you go through this wild journey in the middle and something different comes out on the other side. And so, again, it just feels like another reinforcement of, like, sometimes just trusting the process, even when it's taking you through, like, areas that you're like, I don't know. You're like, I'm just passing through. Right? I'm just
passing through. Maybe I'm gonna stop here if it feels good, but maybe I'm just passing through. So I did that with Knit circle, and then I sort of panic did it on my own with pirates of the high teens. So I think just before Gamma expo, sometime in the early part of the year, I was sort of going around to lots of people being, like, I think I need a developer for pirates. I don't know how to bring this to the final close. Right? And I think I need another set of eyes.
And so I talked to a bunch of people. I talked to people that you could pay lots of money to do development. I talked to friends that I might be able to, you know, say, can I give you some profits from the kickstarter, that kind of thing? And I wasn't really landing on an answer, but I just kept working on pirates. To the point where I think I've done most of the development that needs to be done. It's really solid where it is I've got a couple things that came out of origins that I wanna...
That I wanna play with, but I think if I threw them all out and just shipped the game as it was just before origins. I think it's a good game. I think it's a really strong game. And so I'm not sure. I need to do a little bit of, like, retrospective looking back at how I did this because it just sort of seamlessly went from the design to the development process with, I think the added piece hanging over my head of, like, No, really, I I just need to make
some decisions. Like, I'm just gonna decide it, and then that will be what I'm gonna... What I'm gonna do. And some of that is getting locked in by, like, the art. Right? So I've chatted with a cultural consultant about how to make the game a little bit more global I have 72 unique dishes in this game, and so I've got an artist working on those. And once we create a dish. Right? Like, I can't pay for, you know, a hundred and 50 different pieces of art as I, like, waffle my way around
what should be the things. Right? So it's pieces of the game are starting to lock down. And it's it's great. Because now I've got a little bit more of a constraint system of, like, I'm probably not gonna change that. I can change the values associated with that, but not gonna change the distribution of flavors in the deck because I have carefully plotted out all 72 of these and, like, those need those flavor
ratios need to be locked in. Right? So I can tweak the points, but I can't tweak the ratios at this point. So so, yeah, I... I you know, I very intentionally went through development with winning circle, and I think I very panicked and without realizing it went through development on pirates. And so so that was 2 interesting processes to do at the same time. I do think, you know, I'm still working on the... How do I put pencils down on pirates? And in fact, Eric last night asked me.
He was like, so when is it enough? Right? When is it done enough? Because it'll never be done. Right? But when is it you know, this is the Mvp. This is the the version that goes out. And I do think I'm really close to that. Right? I'm I'm playing with 1 change, and I think that's That's it. Right? So we'll see. Hold me accountable the next time we chat. Did I actually stop before Gen con? Or did I or did I push on
into, you know, forever and ever. But, you know, the realities of timeline are just... I gotta get this thing built so that I can get preview copies out so that I can get previews to look at it before I launch my kickstarter in the fall. And so I just gotta, like, snap the chalk line, and that's... I think that's happening in the next 2, 3 weeks here. So that's... I don't know. That's been my development journey. I've played those 2 games a lot, like,
a lot a lot. A lot. Most of pub was dedicated to playing those 2 games. And so, so many times played those games. Yeah. So I I think the the 1 thing that that you're talking about, like, having outside eyes. Right? And I think that is important. But I think that, 1 thing that your situation is slightly different in the sense that Sometimes people have an idea for game and they're gonna maybe it's to first game whatever they're gonna kick start it. And so, like,
you, they make it. They take it somewhere they test a little bit. And they're, like, it's great. Everyone loves it, and, like, they're ready to just, like, put it up there. And a lot of times, it's probably not ready. Right? Regardless of, like, just in the general sense on average. But I think the I think the 1 thing that you said were maybe, like, nec less need for an external developer is, the fact that you have taken it so many places and play it with so many different people.
Right? Because, like, at some level, like, when even when you're, like, going to... Like, have game this ready, and you take its un pub and say you're playing it after hours with a bunch of other designers, And, like, someone's like, hey, you should try to change this or whatever. I mean, that's the kind thing you're doing in development anyway.
And so if you've done that with enough people you you know, you you're not having the blind spots that a neo fight designer might have of, like, you know, I play this with my friends and family, and they think it's awesome and I'm gonna, you know, make a million dollar kickstarter or whatever. Right? So Yeah Because you've been working on it a while, and you've taken at lots of places and put it in front of lots of different people.
You've gotten basically, like, a bunch of little for that lack, a better word I'm gonna say many development sessions. Yeah. And so... And and... Because they... Even if, like, a a developer is gonna say, like, let's try this. Didn't work. Let's try this. Didn't work. Right? And so because you've iterate reiterated on that and not just been stuck inside your own head. Right? Because I think that's the thing. Always get blind spots on all our games, I do it with mine.
So having somebody else, like, say, like, well, did you try this or could you smooth this out or whatever? So that that helps you not be stuck in that in that lube. So I think that maybe that's kinda what happened here where you didn't really need the external person because you've gotten the same effect from a bunch of, like, mini sessions across a lot of people in a lot of different times. Yeah. I think so. And I think, you know, the other thing is this game has been
through so many iterations. It had dice at 1 point. It had a, you know, a like a Cas, draft where you're drafting 2 things from the same slot. It... I mean, it's just... The very first game was, like, can you get enough butter and flour and sugar to, you know, bake a bake a cake? Right? It was it was totally different type of sec collection? So so some of that is just, like, it it's just been through so many different things that, like, it's had a full a full life cycle.
I think the thing that I was looking for with a developer was someone to help with the, like, decision anxiety. Right? Of these places where I'm just I'm just saying that's it. I've chosen it's the answer, just someone to go Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's a good idea. And I don't know if I just ran out of time or ran out of
patients and said that's it. I'm deciding. I'm using my own judgment, or maybe I'm more confident in my own judgment, but I'm I've decided to use my own judgment, which is what I was gonna do at the end of the day. So now instead of having the doubt of, you know, someone else disagreed with me, and I did it anyway. I'm gonna have the doubt of... Well, I never really got another opinion, and I did it anyway. So either way has doubts, and I just, you know, This is what I wanna do.
So I'm just gonna own it and make my choices and, you know, roll the dice. See how... See how it lands. Right? Yeah. Well, like you said, game... You know, that's the old right. Games are never finished, or just shipped.
So, you know, I I think the thing is, like, you know, make some decisions with intention and and kinda move forward in and you know, can worry about it later or your next game or second edition or whatever, but, like, this is gonna be what this version is gonna be and and that's gonna be okay. Yeah. Alright. Number 3. The the third and last thing that I had on my list was that I was considering this 2 player line of games, with a lot of intention and a very
specific focus. 2 player only, mostly 0 some, most with a line or a component of bluff, double bluff princess bride, I powder or whatever words you wanna use, kinda moments where, like, you're getting tight each other's heads a little bit, and that's the game as much as the the components on the table. And you know, small box size of a hard back book, 20 dollars, You, that was kind of the vision. And so, I did some stuff with that. Right? I ain't shared a booth with someone. They were okay.
That. Could've been it sounds wonderful whoever they are. So, like, you know, I I had to get signs me made An art made for the signs because I have not artists and I, you know, got stands made and shipped from China and all the things. And yeah. And so that's where I was at Origins. I didn't have any... I didn't schedule any
blocks in the input room. I did end doing some other things, but, like, my focus was just to try to go to origins and kind of, like, put this... I put 1 or 2 of my games out, but also, like, just this concept in general. In front of people and and, like, I I had an app to collect emails if people wanted to. But my kind of my bigger focus was
just to, like, get people's opinion. Right? Just to, like, get their feedback, see if they sounded like this is something they would want or not want or if they're ambivalent. So I I think generally speaking as far as the line goes, I had some really good feedback. Talked to, a retailer who was walking around early Thursday morning. And I was kind of explaining the line to him, and I was talking about some the different games. So like I... I mostly had...
We are we were going heavily pirate themes, So I had black Beard versus Captain Morgan, which is, like, again, it plays a little bit like battleship with bluff. It's more complicated than that, but that's kinda how feels to play. And so I was demoing that and some other stuff. I had my 2 player bidding game.
And so anyway, I talked this retailer. Like, I have this game and, like, each 1 is a different mechanism, so they're not just all, like, drafting games or something, and have a different theme, different, gameplay mechanisms and stuff. And, like, he was super receptive to it, Like, this guy would basically... If I had had games, he would about 10 of each. I so I explained the pirate game and he's, like, Oh, yeah. He's like, I would totally take that, you know, for 20 dollar, like,
retail pricing. It's like, you yeah. I know 5 people who would buy it this week. Right? And so just talking, like, from logistics from his store, like, he likes to have a section of, like, cheaper party games and stuff like that near the register and, like, some 2 player stuff. You know, so maybe more like patchwork work or other things like that. I don't know for for sure, But he likes to have a section, like, in the summer for, like, beach friendly games. Right?
Games that are easy to throw in a backpack and play at the bar or wanna on a table 1 the patio of your hotel or things like that. And so, like this this line has that. Right? It's a small footprint to play as well as small box to carry. And so he was really he was really jazz. Like, couldn't wait to give me his email and, like, hope that he could buy these in the future. So that was pretty gratifying. Ryan. So I talked to some other people. I won't, like, get
get through all of it. Some of it move on the consumer side, potential customers walking by, and then a couple other the people who did have more of a industry bent to their perspective. And so I think by and large, the the response I got for the people I did talk to. Was pretty positive. Convention like that, it's always hard to tell as people are walking by. Some people are just, like, bored or or knows what they're doing. Overwhelmed. Yeah. A lot better.
But, I mean, it as far as, like, you know, I had this, like, tangent goal of, like, you know, so I'm doing some audience testing more than audience building. And I think from us build building, which was, like, a tangent goal, like, that didn't go as well. And, like, prada is just because, I thought we said this on the hunt Origins recap call. Origins was pretty dead. It was not the numbers that there used to be... It... It's a shell of its former self. There's just a bunch of things that are
really weird. Like, 60 percent of the boots didn't even have games. There was a lot of art and jewelry and t shirts and pictures and swords and very nerd gaming adjacent, but not. You give... You go walk past a lot of stuff, not just Artist Row where they didn't... There was any games. To buy, like you literally couldn't buy a game. A lot of dice, which yeah that's an Rpg, but, like, not actual, like, board games. And so
that's kind of frustrating. Like, they had... They basically took an 80 by 80 area of, like, pretty prime time. Boost space, and they set it up with kids games like giant gen, which unfortunately was near us and scared people constantly. And so, like, III know they're starting to do some stuff. They made some hires this year. I'm talking
about gamma. And... But they need to figure out what they want this con to be because right now, I, like, I don't know if I'm going back even to, like, hang out the prob room next year, Like, unless something happens where I need to meet with somebody, like, Pub had an amazing space, opening right up on the main hall, right across some hall, be extra exit, which is like the main 1.
And, like, I was like, man, Like, when it's busy, they're gonna be people waiting at tables to play games and just didn't happen. I mean there were people there, but it wasn't, like, it wasn't any busier than when it went on unpublished was hidden in the back. So Yeah. Gamma needs to figure out what they wanna be and and who they're trying to serve. I think this con has turned into This is my personal opinion. So at me, not anyone else. Has turned into a hangout play games convention.
Meaning, people aren't coming there to get much of anything. Maybe they'll buy 1 game, but, like, they're just gonna go hang out in hall c and play games with their friends. And, like, that's what they're doing. And that's cool for them. But, like, that's not great for the the retail side of of people trying to, like, get product out and get get their art out into a world. So... Yeah. And and the thing is, like, the boost are or cost prohibitive. Right? Like, 1 last thing I'll say, like, that I
kinda taken away from this. My my initial thing with this line was, like, kind of a 3 pronged detect. So if I do it, things progress you know, a kick start, and then, obviously, I could sell. From my website, these are small box games. So, like, it won't take up a lot of storage for me to warehouse at myself at my house. And then I was like, oh, like, these gains would be a great con pickup. Right? 20 dollars. Yep. Ham try 20 dollar bill
walk away. I'll tell I'll handle the tax whatever, and, like, could play at the bar that night or whatever. I think that's true. I still think that that could have a pretty big upside. But the problem is Financially, it doesn't make sense. Right. I'm selling these games for 20 bucks. And so, like, let's see even just say I'm making 15. Like, I'm doing all the work. Right? Just me. And, you know, a full size 10 by 10 booths, You know I was like, 1500 bucks. So I have to sell a hundred copies of
a game. I have saw hundred games. Take to 0 to not lose money. And if the numbers are, like, they were this this past weekend, next year, like, III mean, I don't know if no could do that. Like, and, obviously, getting bigger booth or further upfront or whatever, like, you're just you're paying more. So
I think that that's... That makes it really, really challenging, especially for an Andy indie publisher, At they have a special thing if you're the first time exhibit, and that's a lot cheaper, but still, it's like, there was a person next to us selling some really cool candles that were, like, they were awesome. Blob with a thing inside it, and as it melted, the thing came out and, like, really cool stuff. And, like, they were there on the 600 dollar first time exhibit special.
And they basically said they didn't sell enough to profit to even cover that. They were not gonna come back next year. And so that really changes the math. And so 1 thing that I've probably decided is that, like, it would take some pretty special circumstances for me to ever sell this line at a convention. Mh. And, like, Origins is 1 of the cheaper ones. Right? So, like, gen cons, like, way more expensive. And packs on unplugged, you can't even get a booth, and
it's gonna be more expensive too. Right? So then you're not talking about a hundred copies of your again, you're talking about 200 or 300 And, like, and that's to get to 0. Right? That's to not lose money. And yeah, it's a marketing expense, but, like, that's a lot of marketing expense. And then that's also, like, you at the booth 8 hours a day, or you're losing giving more money to pay somebody to be there. And so,
yeah. I I think that it kind of my eyes up to that a little bit that maybe selling this line as a small person. Right? Like, I think you have to kinda go bigger go home is is kinda where my mindset is at this point. And so as a small person, like, I I just don't know that, like, you can make it work. If you can get into, like, the rising showcase, it, like, packs some plug and stuff like that. That's kind of a free thing, then sure. That's great. Like, you can get some eyeballs and
stuff like that. But there's so many people that get into that right each year. Or so... It's so small. It's vanishing small. Right? That it's it's essentially a lottery. Right? Yeah. I think they take, like, 6 people 4 or something. So... Yeah. Yeah. So that was kind of my experience with that. I I still I'm testing the waters with moving this line forward, but I think the 1 the 1 leg of the 3 legged stool I was thinking would work.
I think I think makes sense. I think it is a great con, kinda pick up, me having a booth doesn't work. To sell a 20 dollar game. Now the other thing that could be is if I had a good relationship with the publisher, not really c branding thing, but, like, it's somebody who's selling 60 dollar euros, and they, like, want something else. Like, people are walking by and, like, they want something that people can kinda, like, grab on the way and
checkout out. So maybe if I could deal up a relationship with somebody like that we're, like, they have my 20 dollar games there and I give them 5 bucks a copy, and I don't do anything. But, like, it gets people to their booth and also, like, while they're there, maybe they, like, check out a demo of 1 of these bigger games. Since already paying for the space. Right? So I don't know. That could be a possibility.
This this isn't something that I wanna go through the whole thing of c branding and distribution and all the other kind of stuff. That's not my vision for this line, but... Yeah. So definitely some lessons learned there. And yeah, I'll let you talk more about the booth stuff now on your side. Yeah. So I think my my sort of parallel to this is, you know, I've been figuring out how to launch Cock. And
So I've been doing the convention circuit. I've been I've been trying to figure out how to get followers how to build organic following and things like that. So really what I've been doing for the past 6 months is learning about marketing and figuring out what's gonna work for me. So I tried my hand at some of the convention marketing, I will say origins has been the best
for that. So I've got... I'm up almost 60 kickstarter followers, which, you know, if you think about cost per follower, that's not great. Right? But, it's more than I got going to, like Phoenix Fan Fusion, which is, like, a Comic style event, a fan event. And there I got, you know, 15 or so. For an entire weekend of demoing in, like, a gaming hall as opposed to, you know, short demos at a booth. Right? So the difference was
a Phoenix Fan Fusion. I had people sit down and actually get to play the game for 30 minutes. So you only got through, like 10 a day, or, you know, maybe 12 something like that. But, whereas I did a ton of demos, a ton of demos, 2 minute demos at the booth. And so I got my, you know, sort of 60 kicks starter followers and, like, a hundred more people on my mailing list, which is a big win for me. But again, it was a it was a
big investor Right? It a full week for me when you count the driving and and all of that. So... But, you know, it feels like it feels like there's momentum. I did a number of interviews there that are gonna go up on various sort of social media things. I've started my tiktok, and I've started doing Instagram Reels. So this week after Origins was a little low for that because I was sort of, like, recovering. But I've got a plan sort, you know, Monday that I'm gonna be more active on social media.
All that being said, everything I'm hearing and reading is that organic social media is not necessarily closing the gap these days in terms of getting you to successful kickstarter. So I'm also looking at, you know, how do I set myself up to do no kidding advertising on Facebook and Instagram and maybe b gigi g. So so, yeah, It's it's just sort of, you know, 1 step after the other. Pushing myself forward on this. Some of it is easier for me. Some of it's really hard.
And I'm struggling with the activation energy on it. And and I'm just struggling with the... It's new to me. Right? So which things are worth which things have a good return on investments? And how much of this can I learn from other people versus having to, like, experience and fail at it myself?
So, you know, I'm sort of at the work more on the organic media, or organic marketing start figuring out how to do the actual marketing, because that doesn't actually need to be in place more than a couple months before the kickstarter, but that time is coming up. And then, you know, how am I gonna do other stuff? Am I gonna do podcasts? Am I gonna do... You know, what other sort of circuit can I do to get more eyeballs on this?
Part of this journey, has been diving into board game geek in a way that I haven't done, so I'm not, you know, I'll just confess. I'm not a big board game geek user. Whenever we're, like, looking up like, Should we play this game? You know, what what do we know about it? Like, Eric is the 1 who's, like, I'm gonna go find out. And so he does he does the research. He comes back. And, yeah. So I have figured out how to get my designer page up and a page for my company and a page for my
game. And then all of a sudden, doing that, got a little spike in attention. Right, of, you know, someone did a, hey, here's new stuff on Geek, and And so so I've been sort of figuring that out. I I'm still not convinced that the core Bg g audience is the target audience for pirates. Right? I I think I think they fit into it I think I get a lot more excitement outside of people who... You know, their favorite game is terra Mars or Brass Birmingham or
something like that. Right? The what I saw at origins is the light in people's eyes when they're like, I love afternoon tea. This art speaks to me. I love pirates and tea. I love... You know, I love our flag means death. Right? And, again, I think lots of those people are on Bg g, but I I think I don't I think I don't really know who's on Bg g. Right? I think that's... I've got an impression that it's people who like heavy eros. And and I don't know. I just... I think that's what I think.
So so I'm I'm learning more about Bg g or trying to. And and just trying to, like, get some momentum and figure out how to ride that. Right? Because I The other thing is like, the timing of knit circle being announced and what I'm trying to do with pirates, I'm trying to see if I can sort of, like, gust off them. Right? Make it such that, like, when I'm doing stuff around knit circle, right, in and off moment, I can be like,
hey. I tell you about pirates or, like, people came up to my booth or pirates. And I was like, well, if you're excited about this, you should check out knit circle. Right? And I'm just trying to, like, make it happen together and hope that maybe I can get a little bit of a signal boost that way. Because it's... You know, there's there's a lot. And, you know, I won't say that there's
a lot riding in this. Right? If this kickstarter fails if this game fails, like, you know, it's not it's not the end of me in game design or game publishing or, you know, as a person. Right? I I just I'm trying to, like, capture and harness what feels like forward momentum, and and and ride that through. Ride that wave. Right? And maybe make it bigger.
So so, yeah, just a lot of marketing, publicity, figuring out how to talk to people, who to talk to, how to get on their calendars, all sorts of things, which has a lot mixed into it that I just have a hard time with. I I sometimes have that, like, inbox anxiety or, like, I see 10 new emails in my inbox and I'm like, I can't I can't look at these right now. Like, it... Because I know it'll take me 2 hours to respond to them, and and I had other things I wanted
to do. And then I feel bad you know, later in the day that I didn't respond to them immediately, and so then, you know, it just sort of gets really, really stressful. So trying to work through my own, fond stuff around that, has been an eye opening experience, and I'm I'm not there yet. I have people I need to email back but we're recording this on a Sunday, and so I've told myself Monday morning. First thing I'm gonna do is send a bunch of these emails.
And it's gonna happen, and I'm gonna get it done, and that's just what I need to do to make this work. So, yeah, I've been I think I'm getting... I think I'm making progress on the the marketing and brand building journey. It's a little bit slower than I expected, and some of that is my own slowness. And so that's again, just a thing I'm sort of filing away that I'm learning about myself, and I'm learning about the industry and just sort of how do I estimate enough time
to make all these things work. Right? But, yeah, It feels it feels positive, and it feels like I haven't lost momentum. And I'm slowly gaining, And I think the thing is just gonna be figuring out what the timing on that wave really looks like. Right? Is this a wave I can ride to September? Do I need to take it to October? Is it really better for Next may. Right? What what is the right sort of cadence and timing and and sort of things on this this journey that I'm on.
So... Yeah. I think you're probably right. Having been at the booth the whole week and seeing the people come up and and get the demo and things like that. You know, it was interesting. The 1 the 1 lady that came up with her daughter, the daughter kinda dragged her over, and it was interesting because I think you even asked her. I think later in the week you were asking people, like, little bit more, like, what are you like What are you looking for in a kickstarter?
Or what gets you excited? And just trying to do that market research, which was smart. And like, her answer was cool art. Yeah. Right. And I think that's that's generally not the the the Bg crowd by and large. Right? Like, the people who are going to forums and, like, talking about games being broken or good or bad or whatever.
And so I think that there is a certain percentage of people who, maybe they've heard a board game geek, but they're most checking out the cool stuff, the interesting, pretty stuff on kickstarter. And so, like, to me, like Bg g ads, seem like, less productive use of your money than say something like Facebook ads. Right? Like, you said, like, some people were, like, super into the pirates. Stuff. But I think you had just as many people stop by who, like, paused
specifically because, like, it said, tea. And they're like, I love tea. Even though you don't really need that, like, eat or drink or really do anything that... You know, it's super into, like, the full tea, like, thing. Right? It wasn't like a cup of tea sitting there. Right? Yeah. But people came over, because, like, it resonated with a thing that that they care about. Right? And so I think that that's
that's smart. And then then definitely something that, like, I think you're you're focusing on, I think that that's great. Right? Like, kinda meeting people where they are. Right? Not assuming that, the certain percentage of people who like Tea will eventually find your game, but, like, trying to be more intentional with targeting them in the first place.
So III would agree with you that, like, it seems much more that those other groups, are your target audience, and the people who will will be jazz to get your game as opposed to, like, you know? Yeah. And and I think that sort of pulls 2 threads for me. Right? So 1 is I sort of ended up pitching pirates during un pub, just, like, there was a publisher who had sort of expressed interest And Was like, well, if you wanna see it. Right?
And, you know, the conversation that we had there was they just weren't sure how to find those people. Right, of how do you find people who are into pirates and like gateway games? How do you find people that are into tea and like gateway games and how do find people that are into both? And our sort of gateway games. Right? And that's just not what their company's marketing apparatus was set up for. So that I think was, you know, useful knowledge.
I I think the other piece was that I got out of origins was the question of who who buys the games in your house and how does that process work? Right? Because by the end of origins, I had people coming back and bringing someone else. Right? Bringing their husband, bringing their game group. Right? Bringing people that they wanted to make sure that those people were tracking the game
so that it could actually... You know, so that they could remember to back it, you know, all of these things, and so they could sort of vote for, like, this is a game we wanna have in our house on our table, you know, those sorts of things.
And it it kind of reminded me of, I think I think I've told you about this Ro, but It kinda reminded me about there's a group of war hammer folks that I know here in Boston that, you know, 2 years ago at Christmas, every single guy from the War hammer group bought their spouse wings fan. Because they were, like, it's a game that I think would be of interest to my spouse based on things that they like. They like birds and they like flowers and they like, and they don't like brass Birmingham.
Right, or whatever. And so I'm I'm seeing a little bit of that dynamic because I also had a bunch of people who walked up and said, my sister loves tea, my wife loves pirates, my whatever, whatever. Right? They were they were seeing it as a theme, that had interest in someone that they cared about. And and I think that there's lots of people who want to play games with the people in their life and they can't always interest them in terra
forming Mars. Right? And and I don't mean to align terra forming Mars or Brass Birmingham. Right? Wonderful and great games, but not always what everyone is looking for. And so So I don't know. III don't have the full package, you know, what am I gonna do with that insight, but I do feel like there's these little, bubbles per in my mind that I think I'm gonna be able to use to to figure out my advertising strategy and where what ads I'm putting up and wear and,
like, photos shoot. Right? I probably need to take some pictures of my game with a t set. Right? With the 3 tiered thing with some cakes and some tea, and, you know, a nice tea pot and stuff like that, which is probably not on most people's, like, when I take my publicity photos, make sure I have my fine China setup. So, you know, that kind of thing, and and I came up with an idea with a friend of, like, having you know, having some, like, video snippets of people playing, but like,
dressed as pirates. Right? And, like, having a grand old time, like, doing a little bit of, like, y. I serve you my, you know, H Eat. Right? Whatever it is. So I I think there's some things there as opposed to just, like, look, it's a family playing a board game. Right? Look, it's it's people who are cool and in their twenties and thirties. Playing a board game. Right? It's it's, like, speak to those people and catch their attention with these ads. So
I think I'm learning something. That's my takeaway. I think I've learned something. I don't know what I learned, but I think I learned it. Well, yeah. I agree with you. I think part of it is, like, even if once you know it, like, how can you leverage it? I think that's the key harder part. Right? So this something else we talked about in, like,
not that this system, like, very insight. But 1 thing that I that I said, like, that I think would be cool in in the game, like, yours is, like, if you had a small little, like, recipe book of, like, how to make a water sandwich and cut it correctly and, like, what tea it goes with or whatever. And, like... So when you're sitting down to play, you can kinda make it more of, like, an, you know, like, an experience, not just like, you're playing
the game or whatever. Right? And, like, that's the kind of thing you could put on your blog or in your newsletter, whatever. Like, you know, try this afternoon tea or whatever with your kids or your your friend or whatever else because it doesn't remind me too. Like, 1 thing that, like, I'm talking to someone else about with kind of the idea for, like, barn quilt. Right? And so this is kinda also ties into crust stitch and or knit circle at some level 2.
It's like, sometimes, like you said, well my aunt likes t. And so is this a game that I could play with my aunt or my grandma or something like that? But, like, could you get your game into, a t shop? Or could you get knit circle or cross stitch? Or, like, in in my case bar quilt into a Michaels. Right? Because the thing is, like, your aunt or your grandma... They already have all the quilt stuff they're ever gonna need all the prostate stuff that they're ever
gonna need. Like... So you can just buy a Michael's gift card. Or if you walk in there and you're like, well, here's this game for, like, that's family weight. It's 30 or 40 bucks. Like, it's something that they don't have. Right? And so, like, it's meeting that customer where they are or the people that they know are. Right? And so, like, it's a great avenue. And I think that's a great insight. The harder part is, like, how do you get a hold of the buyer at Michael's to
get that game pulled through it. Right? But I think that there is something to be set for that. Like, a game in the quilt section of a Michaels around Christmas time doesn't matter... I mean, honestly, look, you you could put nothing in the box, and you're gonna sell you know, because some number of thousands of copies. Right? Just because people are looking for something that's different and related to something somebody likes. Right? They're trying to be thoughtful.
But they don't have time and, like, they can't buy you something actually use in your quilt because, like, people are very, very specific about the kind of things they use and the thread they use and the needles, the leg it's it's gonna be a thing. Right? And you're again getting the wrong thing they're just gonna return it. Right. But you can get them something that shows you, appreciate their interest, and it's gonna be different than anything they've
ever gotten. So, like, it's a great insight Yeah. I don't have a solution how to get into that spot either, but, like, I think it's it's a good good thing to do if you could get there. Right? Yeah. And I think even... I mean, I'm not that you need convincing on this, But I think even more so. Right, It's a thing that shows you understand and appreciate their interest. And that you can do together with them. Right? Because it's really hard unless you are a quilt or an it just sit around do that.
With your aunt with grandma, whatever, but like, being able... I mean, how thoughtful is that kid who's like, you like quilt, I like games let's quilt game together. Right? And that's like, I feel like that's every grandparents like dream. Right? So... Yeah. They're gonna talk about that for 20 years. Right? And just like the same thing like with it... With, like, with your game, like, if it... Like, person likes tea. Like, hey. I I... You're bringing the game over and some, like water
or whatever. And, like, we're gonna make the sandwiches and we're gonna have tea, and we're gonna play this game. Right? And it's it's a different kind of experience. And, yeah. It's tough It's tough. If you can meet people where they are. Right? That's just, like a holy grail. Right? Yeah. Yeah. No. I need to do... I definitely gonna do the recipe thing on my website,
but I think having a little book. Maybe this could be a stretch goal that if we reach some amount, then the recipes can go book in the in the thing. Otherwise, you have to go to the website. It's more. It cost money because it's big. It it's stretch when you gotta do the, like, the sound that the cold does with the... Okay. Is that? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That's it. There's some stuff up appear top that I feel like if I pressed it, I'd
get noises, but I shouldn't do that. So any ahead, Ro. Oh, no. No. I think that's all great. So I think maybe we should, like, get to the point of what we're talking about what we're gonna do the rest of the year. Yeah. Let's do it. So I don't think we need to, like, go in as much details as we did at the beginning of the year, listeners are getting tired. Agree. And then just sort us recap and talk about all of the same stuff that we're gonna do already.
So I think for me, mine haven't totally changed. I'm still gonna try to pitch more. I'm gonna try to do better at cold emailing. It's just frustrating when, like, you craft something and you have a decent cell sheet, and you think it's like, just waiting and hear somebody, like, not interested or whatever and you just get, like, no response at all. It's kind of annoying. So Gonna try to do that. I think the thing with the art and culture game stuff that'll happen as it happened.
So not really a major. Thing it could become a priority for me, but we'll see how that pans out. I think for my 2 player line, which is my last goal for this year. I already said, like, I think selling at a convention is by myself is probably not in the cards. I think there's 1 other thing that I'm gonna try to do here before Gen con, and that is
initially, I had... The reason I decided to try to do this line myself is because historically, you talked to a publisher about 2 player games and they they're like, Nobody buys 2 player games. And I'm like, okay. Well, it's not really true, but pandemic has shown us that. But generally, a lot of publishers shut it down right away. Right? There's a couple that have fairly decent amount of that, like, Cosmos and and others, but, like, not many publishers are in in that space.
But and this is my con and prediction. But now the sky team is gonna win the spiel, I don't think it's close. I think it's a slam dunk. Mh. Probably like to follow trends. And so I'm hoping to ride the wave that's gonna be in my email proposition 2 the publishers of, like, hey, now the guy team is gonna win the spiel, when you like to get ahead of the market, I have a whole line of 2 player games that are already done, they're completely
developed. They're ready to go, you just need have to make art and I have, like, so most I haven't talked about with this line that that product placement, like, a lot of things have been thought through pretty well, I think. So, yeah. I think I'm gonna also do a pitch. I think there's a moment in time here that maybe I can leverage. And that I can just be a designer,
not a publisher too, but we'll see. So I think that's a a slight experiment I'm going to take, reach out to a couple publishers that I think might be slightly more. Accepting of the idea. And especially since I have, like, like I said, several that are that are done, Like, they don't really need any development, because I've been they've been around for 3 or 4 years. Yeah. So we'll see. So that... That's a slight twist on my 2 player line. If that goes poorly.
Honestly, I might just focus on getting stuff ready for packs unplugged, then not really do anything else with this line this year, and then see maybe at the end of the year if I wanna kind of, like, decide if I really wanna go forward because
I think that's a big thing. Right? Mh. All the money in art and all the other stuff, like, is at the time and and money investment I wanna make for this line, given that I'm mostly at this point, thinking the only way to make it financially pay for itself, would be kick starting. So... Yeah. That's my 20 24 second half goals. Okay. So mine are
along the same lines. So I I think I've got unplugged in my sights as, like, I'd love to have a few new games by then, that I felt like they're not Hawk games. They're games I wanna pitch so that's that's a piece I'm gonna be working on. I think this... I am on this train with Pirates. And I am continuing forward. There are no signs of stopping. There might be signs of slipping right. Right? So you know, we'll see when that happens, and it's possible.
The pirate kickstarter launch slips into next year. I don't think so, but, you know, we'll see as we get closer. So I think that's on track. Knit circles is on track, that's happening. I'd I'd say the other piece that I sort of wanna add to this mix is exploring other ways to to be a part of this industry. Right? So now that I've done some development, are there other development gigs that I could pick
up. There's a a game design on commission opportunity that I'm looking at, you know, that kind of stuff of of what can I do to sort of be getting other experience in this industry and and things like that? So I'm sort of tentatively putting that on my goals for the year. But that's a little bit more exploratory. Right? I think the priority is is Pirates and Hawk. Right? Knit circle. And then I just... I I wanna continue to build this set of games. Right? I need to continue
to build my design skills. I need to build out my repertoire, my resume, my library, whatever it is. So that's my that's my updated focus for the year. So I'm excited that I'm still on track for a bunch of it. And, I'm excited that I've pivoted some of them. Some of those goals were stupid, So I threw them out. And new goals. Hashtag new goals. So... Alright. Last thing, we're thinking we might do a little pitch here if listeners you're not to bored of hearing a star.
So, Ro, you wanna pitch something? Yeah. Yeah. I'll pitch something, But I think the way we should do this is so, as we've said, Emily Drew from Boston to my house, and we went 2 and front origins together, because I was planning on driving already. And my house is basically halfway. And so, on the way out, I had a prompt based on a component that I had bought some, and we designed a game on the way out. And on the way back, Emily had a prompt,
and we designed a game around that. And so I'm gonna let her do the setup of the prompt. Okay. And then I'll pitch it from there. Alright. So this is my favorite type of design. This is name first design or really pun first design. So I've been sitting on this name for a while, and the name is No nomenclature, starting with a g. Nomenclature. So I, you know, no... A nomenclature is a, you know, creation of a naming hierarchy. And gnomes are adorable things that live in your garden and wear hats.
And so I I'm obsessed with the idea of a... The tagline I had was a Gnarly game of naming gnomes. Because I think that you need to name your gnomes in a very good hierarchy. So I was like, Ro, this has been like my white whale. I have the pun. And other than that, I know you're naming No. So, Ro, how are we gonna name these No? Yeah. So so it's interesting. So 1 of the things that we kinda started with. So we'll basically tell about of the story and we'll get to what the actual game.
Play we... We decide 1 for the first version. Is obviously, this is kinda lighter. Right? So this is this is not a a euro this is probably party or family weight. And so we we talked about a couple different things. And I think the the thing we kinda settled in with given the pun, that it really probably pushes harder into into a party game. Yeah. And so we have all these gnomes, and so we have nomenclature. And 1 of the things that we're talking about this that stuck in my head right away.
Pretty early in the idea radiation was if you look at the word nomenclature, there's 2 sounds at the beginning of it. And those sounds are no and men. Yep. And so that was just kind of a weird thing. And I'm, like, we should make this this occasion where the gnomes are all all women. Right? There should be no men. There are no men. Right? So it's it's There's no men. Right? So it's no, nomenclature, and also nomenclature. So that was pretty early on. And so we... We're sticking with that. Yeah.
So this is a game that has no, and there's no no male no in it. It's no men. So the... We we talk a bunch of different structures. Right? So you have these gnomes and they're going to be visually different in some way. Right You have obviously, we wanna game... If it's party to have some table presence in some kind of, like, interesting things to consider But then the thing is, well, what what are you doing with the the naming? Right?
So there's lots of different ways you can kinda go, like, you're kinda guessing what someone else is gonna pick or you're going to all assign a naming to the the node that's out there together secretly, and then you score or you have a judge. And, you know, we we went through a lot of those different kinds of systems. And The 1 thing that I think, Emily had, like, maybe slightly more of a vision for what she wanted this to end up than than she initially told me, which is fine.
Was that, like, well, what if it's like, we're we're we're discovering these new, known species? And so this is kinda where we added ended up where, like, there's gonna be some species, and they're gonna be fairly nonsensical. Right? Because these are gnomes. And we're going to be classifying them. So we're we're No scientist ascend level.
And we've discovered the new known species and we're going to, assign them to different, species slash genus slash familiar, you know, the Latin kind of, like, hierarchy. And so, the idea is there's there's gonna be some number, probably 4 to start of species for the game. And they're gonna be kind of combined randomly. So each species is gonna be 2 words of some random latin sounding word. We're, like examples are, like, adorable maximus. Or something like, Yeah. Right or, like... Yeah.
Whatever. Hinting it's hinting at some characteristic that and alive. No. Right? Because these n are alive. They're not just ceramic. And and so we have to, like, as a group classify them. Right? And so they'll be random. So each pair of classifications will be, 2 words and they'll just people from a deck randomly. And then the thing we were thinking about is, instead of somebody having a judge. Right? Because Judging games have a lot of problems, and I think we're both kind of, like, anti
judging games. Mh. We kinda went with, like, a slightly more and now just model to something like what's and wage. And so the way it would work is an inner current version that we've not made. There'd be some number of no better not men because there's no men. Out there on the in the on the table area. And let's say there's 8. Yeah. So that's there's 8 pictures pardon me of, a female no doing cool stuff, kicking butt. And 1 player is going to be the scientist. Right? So we believe in science
in this at this podcast. And we believe in peer review, And so the whole point is, somebody's going to see these 8 zooms and decide which 1 looks most like adorable maximus. And which 1 looks more like whatever the other ones are? Charisma, something something. Yeah. Yeah. Some something that sounds cool. That we're not saying right now on on this podcast, But they're gonna pick 4 that they think are the most of whatever it is.
And they're also going to assign 4 disks, which are the numbers 1 before about how obvious or clearly, they are that. So, like, if 1 is absolutely the most adorable 1, and they put that a marker that the adorable 1 that's gonna be classified. Not which of the 8 it is, but which of the category they thought was easiest for them. Basically, that's how many points you could win for guessing correctly what the the scientists had, decided to name these or or categorize these these Named species. So
the person who's the scientist does that. They pick the 4 that they think Matt's best and they grade them which 1 was hardest. You as a player, a peer review here. We're gonna have a little sheet. And so you're also going to try to pick Not what you think are the 4. Right? So this is a game about also knowing the the scientists, what they think, what you think they picked. And if you're right for which 1 was the adorable maximus, then you would get that many points
that the person had there. Right? But you also have the ability to wage your numbers 1 to 4, and the ability to pick which ones you're most sure about. And so if you put the 4, you have 4321 of the numbers you write with your guesses for the 4 for classified gnomes. Hopefully, it makes explaining this clearly is making sense in my head. You pick the 4 that that you think go in the 4 categories, and you also pick which ones you're most sure about. And so your score is which ones you're right.
And it's a sum of how sure you were and how hard the scientists thought it was. So if you you could get 8 points for 1, if you pick the 1 that the scientists thought was hardest, and you also bet the most on that essentially. So there's a little bit of, like, thinking this not just like, what they picked, but also, like, where you wanna kinda score your points. Additionally, to incentivize the scientist to not be a jerk and just, like, pick anything.
They also score points if anybody was able to correctly guess which known that they assigned to the different 4 species. Like, So if anybody at all, 1 of our players, pick the note that was adorable to be in the adorable as pile. Then they get that many points. Right? And so they're incentivized, even when they... They're not doing the guessing, they score points based on people guessing incorrect.
So everybody's at incentives are aligned to have good guesses that that people have out there, but also, the people can kinda guess. And people are gonna be wrong. Right? Because we all have different eyes. And the other thing that that Emily made a good point about was for this game, after we do the each round for those gnomes are now in those species, and they're not removed. That becomes the scientific book of knowledge of what is in the species adorable maximus.
And so now the next player is a scientist 4 more norms are flipped in, and we go again. So the 1 that may wasn't quite as adorable before, may now be the 1 that goes up to the ado pile. But now you're also stuck a little bit considering what other people have already picked in terms of what is adorable when you're when you're doing your further scientific assignments. And additionally, at the end of the game, let's say just go around 1 time, see you has the most points.
You have a picture of, like, This is what gnomes look like that fit in the adorable maximus category. Right? So you have this artifact, Of not just the points you scored across the game, but also, like, what it looks like. And some of them are probably gonna be pretty silly. And and there's probably gonna be some nice memorable moments of, like, how heck did this 1 end up in the angry pile. Right? This is, like, the angry category and, like how is this this 1 known chasing a butterfly with a
net, like, in the angry pile. Clearly because it's chasing something. That seems pretty. Right? Yeah. So anyway, that's the basic gist. So... Yeah. So, you know, this is something we haven't play tested at all. Right? And we're already sort of, bumping up against, like, well, how are we gonna test this? Because, like, this game relies a lot on art. And so we're trying to figure out how to get it to
the table. Right? And I think that there's also some, like stuff in here that, like, we gotta see how do people feel about categorizing in grouping, living things. Right? Like, this is definitely a thing that science has done. Science has done some great things and science has done some terrible things. Right? So I'm really curious to see how this game plays. I'm curious to see how we get it to the table. Right, if you wanna add us, in the in the discord. Happy to happy to hear from you.
But, yeah, naming No scientifically. It's gonna be it's gonna be a thing we're gonna try. It's gonna be great. I'm very excited. So... Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you all for listening. Thank you, Ro for hanging out with me for this long. Even though it wasn't a full 6 hours. I'm sure it still felt. It time passed. Right? So Ro, where can people find you? Yeah. So I'm easy to find. It's just at Ro shock. Want all the things. So Yeah. And I am at Hoc games on Instagram and
Tiktok. Oh, yeah. That's new. Or Emily keeps kitties, everywhere else. And you can also check out my website, hawk games dot com. And if you wanna get in touch with the podcast, you can email us of building the game podcast at gmail dot com. You can also come join the discord server where you're gonna find a lot of awesome people. Including folks who get together every Tuesday night for a little weekly accountability, check in, what have you done this week? What do you
planning to do? How can we and the community help you? But the best way to hear about what's going on and keep up with us is to keep on coming back every week And until then, good night. Good night. Building the game, building the game. France, with Jason and France, building the game, building the game, which Jason and Friends which it end the episode. That's ends?