We are to praise him in the midst of all storms. I think about Lamentations 332 for if he causes grief, then he will have compassion according to his abundant love and kindness. So I don't think we should be afraid of talking about hard things, because even in those hard things, God is still kind and he's still good to us.
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Many in today's world have trouble believing that God is kind because they see so much suffering. Today, pastor and author Nate Pickwick helps answer some of the hard questions people struggle with about God's kindness.
A featured resource at the website Building Relationships. Us is the book by Nate titled The Kindness of God Beholding His Goodness in a Cruel World. I think it's going to help a lot of people struggling well with this topic. Again, you can find out more at Building relationships.us. Gary, you've talked about this before in some of your books and here on the program. I think there's a sense that kindness is part of the love language concept. Do you think that's true?
I would say yes, Chris, it seems to me, uh, that love, you know, kindness is one of the expressions of love. Uh, you know, of course, I associated more with acts of, you know, acts of service, you know, but there's other ways, I'm sure I'm excited about talking with, uh, Nate today about this topic, because I'm interested to see what his definition of kindness is. Uh, people have different ideas, but, yeah, I can see it as being a part of the
love language concept. It is certainly a way to express love, and it's certainly a way that God expresses his love to us.
Yes.
Well, let's meet him. Nate. Pickle poets, you don't have to spell that name in order to hear the program. Today he has pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Wilmington Ironworks, New Hampshire. He's the author and editor of several books, including How to Eat Your Bible. He and his wife, Jess have three children and are featured. Resource. Today is the book The Kindness of God Beholding His Goodness in a Cruel World. You'll find out more at the website. Building relationships.us.
Well, Nate, welcome to Building Relationships.
Thank you for having me on today.
Tell us a little bit about yourself. You know, your family, your church. Uh, who is Pastor Nate?
Sure. Yeah. Well, as you say, I'm a pastor. Uh, we planted this church back in 2013, in my hometown of Wilmington Ironworks. And, yes, there are stories about why it's called that, but just a very small rural town. And, uh, prior to coming back here, there really wasn't a gospel witness in the town. So we have the opportunity to plant a church here. And by God's grace, we've been rolling for those, uh, the last 11 years. My wife and I, Jessica, we have three children, uh, 13, ten
and three. And they keep us busy. Uh, but, uh, it's just been a great joy. The Lord has allowed me to to preach and teach and write books and and have a wonderful family. I'm just extremely grateful for God's kindness to me.
Where is your home originally?
Uh, Gilman and I worked in New Hampshire. Yeah. This is, uh. I was born. Raised here? Yep.
Oh. All right. Well, well, tell us the history of the town. I mean, where did that name come from?
So, yeah, Wilmington is a pretty old town. Goes back to the 1700s. But, uh, it was a booming town for quite a while there. And we actually had, as you can imagine, an iron works, a factory that produced iron and shipped all over the place. And then just through the course of the 1850s, everything changing with the trains, the railway being installed, redirected business away from our town. And then a massive fire 100 years ago destroyed the ironworks and so kept the name. But we don't have
much left of what we what we started with. So now we're just a podunk town. We have more cows than people, and, uh, I like it that way. Uh.
Well, there are a lot of people around the country who can identify with that. Sure, sure. That's right. That's great. That's quite a history. Well, let's turn to the topic, uh, kindness. The kindness of God. What compelled you to write about this particular subject?
Yeah. So I just kept on finding that as I was going to the Lord in prayer, it was almost like this, uh, uh, this natural hitch where I would just find myself thanking God for his expressed kindness to me. I would pray and just rehearse the different ways that he'd been kind to me, and it just sort of piqued an interest. And I started to look around for studies, you know, book studies about this particular topic of the
kindness of God. And not to say that there isn't stuff out there written about it, but I couldn't find what I was looking for. And so normally when I don't find what I'm looking for, I try to write something to fill the gap. But I just felt like even in the midst of that, there was just a need. I think there's a huge need right now for people to understand the character, and specifically the goodness and the
kindness of God. Um, you know, when we consider people struggling so badly right now with depression and anxiety and, and just anger and seeing what's happening in the world, I think we really need to get a good. Vision of who God is and how he expresses his kindness to us. And so that's really what motivated me to try to write this book.
Why do you think there are people today who don't have a concept of God? Is being a kind God? What do you think has influenced those people?
Yeah, I think generally, you know, and I'm sure you've seen this too. There's just a general, at least in the Western world, a general opposition to God. You know, in days past, perhaps, you know, people sort of understood a general, they used to call it a benevolence of God. You read the old Puritans and you even just read during the enlightenment. People had a general sense of God's
character has justice, his righteousness as benevolence toward humankind. So there was a general appreciation, even if they didn't know God in a saving way. People in general sort of knew about God. That's gone away. People don't know who he is. They have a very warped perception of who he is. And then add to that, when we see evil increasing in the world and acts of terror and hostility, people in their ignorance, they blame God and they say, well, if God was so loving, if God was so good,
then why would all these other things happen? And I think really the heart of that is pride and arrogance. You know, we take God's blessings for granted. You know, we don't appreciate his what we would know to be as common grace. We don't thank God for the fact that we have what we have. And so I think a combination of many of those factors may likely be contributing to why kindness is sort of fallen on hard times here.
Yeah. Well, in your own context, you know, there in New Hampshire, small rural town, what's the general feeling of the people in your community? What do they think about God?
Yeah, I'd say, you know, with where I am, I mean, New Hampshire is the according to all the stats, we're the least church state in the country or the very bottom tier or bottom of the barrel. And so not a lot of people are in church. Not a lot of people have at least a a visible identification with Christianity, with evangelical ism, whatever you might call that. So I don't know if people really consider God as much as as they should. I think up here in New England,
you know, we're really we have a hefty self-reliance. It's really not about what other people can do. For me, it's about what I can do for myself. You know, where have a lot of self-made people. And so because of that, you know, there's sort of a gritty New England attitude which has its merits. I don't deny that. But when it comes to worshipping God, we don't look to him for the source of strength, for our our blessings. We don't look to him to provide for us. We
don't look to him for anything. We're very self-reliant. And you know, as you well know, self-reliance is really nothing more than a masked pride and self-righteousness. And so I think generally, New Englanders struggle because it's all about us and not about God. So I think that's part of the reason why some have even regarded New England as an unreached people group, because we're just it's a whole region full of people who don't regard and don't worship
the Lord. And so it's a tall order ahead of us to get us to, to help people, to think about him in that way.
So you started this church in 2013 and in that small community there. How has the how has the church gone through these years?
Yeah, by God's grace, it's gone well. Numerically, we've grown pretty much every year that we've been here. Um, there's I think there's a general hunger right now. I think God is doing something in New England, especially in New Hampshire. Uh, so by his grace, we've seen growth that way. But I think more than numerical growth, we've seen just an
appetite for the word of God with our people. Uh, and so it's just such a great joy for me to be able to preach and teach and minister to people, to believers up here who are starving and really want the word and want truth, want doctrine, and then want a place to express their love for other people. And so that's where your local church comes in. So we're very fortunate. The Lord has been very good to us, and by his grace, we have a growing and thriving church, and I'm very thankful for that.
Thanks for joining us for building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman. For more ways to strengthen your relationships, go to our website Building Relationships US. You can take a free assessment of your love language there and see our featured resource by Pastor Nate Pinkowitz. The title is The Kindness of God. Find out more at Building Relationships us.
Right. Uh, the book, of course, is on the kindness of God. And we see kindness typically is an attribute of God. How does it compare to some of the other attributes of God?
Sure. Yeah. So, you know, as you well know, an attribute of God is is how we understand his person, his being, uh, his the kindness of God is closely connected to his goodness. So in the book, I talk about how God's goodness reflects his intrinsic character, and his kindness is an outward expression. So really, it's out of God's goodness that we experience his kindness. And so the tours are interrelated, but they're not the exact same thing.
So whereas other attributes are sort of germane to who he is, their intrinsic kindness is expressed outward to other people or to us, I should say. So there's a there is a connection. But they like I said, they're not the same thing.
Yeah. Give us your definition of kindness.
Yeah, I read widely on this and tried to figure out, okay, how do I how do I take a broad concept and boil it down? So the definition I give in the book is that God's kindness is the demonstration of his goodness toward his people. So again, the demonstration of his goodness toward his people. And so it's again, out of his goodness that we experience his kindness toward us.
Okay. So in the book, you talk specifically about God's kindness pertaining to things like salvation and repentance. Why is it important that we see these as examples of his kindness?
Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of times, especially as believers, I think we tend to take things like salvation and repentance for granted. And I don't mean that in a sinful way, I just mean it in terms of that. We don't really think about how this comes about, that we believe in Jesus, he saves us, we turn from our sins, and we have this relationship
with God. And it's good. But I think when we start to to recognize that everything in the Christian life that we have received from God is an expression of kindness. And so, you know, just like Ephesians two eight and nine says that it's for by grace you've been saved through faith. It's not of ourselves, it's the gift of God. So God gives us he grants us salvation as an
expression of kindness. And we see that in in Titus chapter three, when it says, when the kindness of God appeared to us, he saved us, or even in repentance, you know, Romans two four, we know that it's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance. So everything we experience in the Christian life, it's not of ourselves,
it's from the Lord. It's expressed kindness of God. And when we recognize that and we kind of wrap our brains around that, everything we have is is a kindness expressed to us, then I think we can rightly begin to worship God and thank him for more than we're possibly recognizing in the moment. We can thank him for all of these things. Lord, thank you for being kind to me and saving me. When we fall into sins and we repent and we're forgiven, we can say, Lord,
thank you for granting me repentance. I don't I don't think I could muster that up on my own. Thank you. So I think, I think we're meant to praise God for all the expressions of his goodness and loving kindness to us, and that's the right attitude to have as a believer.
If we focused on that concept, we could probably make a long list. Every one of us, right? Even the personal things. Yeah. In our in our own lives. Yeah. So how does understanding the kindness of God affect our lives as believers?
Yeah, absolutely. Well, that goes back to the list. I think there is a huge long list, but if I could maybe boil it down to to 2 or 3. I think apprehending God's kindness, it should produce number one humility in us. Uh, recognize. And everything we receive from God is express kindness. It knocks you down a couple of notches. I think it makes you recognize. Wow. Everything I have is from God. I should be humble and recognize this not of myself. And I think in humility
we should also be thankful. And I touched on that a few minutes ago. But I think thankfulness that's an antidote to things like depression and anxiety. It's an antidote to pride and self-righteousness. I mean, thanking God for everything he does for us. I think apprehending is kindness will do that. And then out of a heart that's humble and thankful. I think also we're meant to give praise to God. I think, uh, I think Christians can struggle at times in how to worship and praise him and
thank him. But I think as we understand his express kindness, our praise and our worship will increase. So lots of effects. I think that this can have on a believer and these are all good things for us.
Yeah, I would I would encourage our listeners to write those three things down because I think there you're right. Humility. And if we realize that everything really we have it. Life itself is a gift of God. You know, humility. That's right. And, you know, then thanking God, you know, for what he's done for us and then and praising God.
Yeah. Well, I think as a preacher, I have to have a three point sermon. So, you.
Know, that's the way to do it. But for the.
Pastors who are listening there, there's your three points, okay.
Absolutely. Sure.
So so how does understanding the kindness of God impact our relationships with other people?
Yeah, I think, uh, a heavy verse on my heart when I consider that as Ephesians 432, where the apostle Paul actually tells the church, he says, be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ has also forgiven you. I think verses like that are helpful to us, because once we can sort of recognize and be humbled by God's kindness and grateful and thankful and praise him, once you recognize how God has
been so kind to you, it feels wrong. And it is wrong to not be kind to other people, especially to believers. I mean, Jesus told us in John chapter 13 to love one another just as he has loved us. So. So we're to be kind to each other. I don't think a believer has any excuse to withhold goodness or to withhold kindness from other people, especially when we consider the fact that God has been so kind to us.
And and even when people hurt you. I think even when you're in a difficult relationships, whether they're family or church people, I think when people hurt you, if you can be reconciled to them and then consider, look, God has been kind to me. He was a friend to me even when I was a sinner, even when I was against him. Then I can also be kind because God has been good to me. So I think there's a cascading effect that happens when we realize how much
we've been the recipients of kindness. It motivates us to then be kind to other people, and that can manifest itself in a million different ways. But I think that's a key application. Yeah.
I'm going to ask what Chris asked me in the first segment of the program today. How do you see kindness fitting into the love language concept?
I think the way that, um, in different languages, you're going to the heart is going to be the same. You know how love is expressed. That feels funny for me to be telling you this, by the way, Doctor Chapman, but.
But just the way that I understand it, uh.
You know, that all of these different expressions of love and sort of tailor fitting those expressions of love toward the other person, I think the heart behind it is a desire to express a loving kindness to them. It's it's out of kindness that we do these things that I, I buy my wife a gift or I want to spend time with her, or I give her a hug or whatever it may be. I think it's the heart that's underneath it, the being kind to one another, forgiving
each other as God in crisis, forgiving you. That becomes the heart. That's that's expressed in those different ways. Uh, and again, we're not, you know, legalistic on how we do that. It can be a lots of different ways that we express it. But I think if the heart is right, the expression will be right as well. But that's just kind of my $0.02 about that.
Yeah, I fully agree with that. I like that. I do think if we have an attitude of kindness, you know, that's our fixed way of thinking that, you know, with all that God has done for us, you know, I want him to be his instrument of being kind to other people. I think that is the attitude that's behind expressing all the love languages and many, many other ways of expressing kindness.
But there is a sense and let me follow up with this. The knock on the love languages or people will criticize it and say, well, you're just manipulating people. You're just, you know, you're doing this. So you get this. And I think that same trap can be fallen into spiritually because a lot of people think that Christianity, Nate, is, uh, God tells you to do this and you do that,
and then he does this because you've done that. So it's a quid pro quo, you know, that that we fall into, that we do kind things to other people so that God will be kind to us. And then when something bad happens, then, well, God didn't hold up his, you know, in other words, we're meriting his kindness. And that's not what you're talking about, right?
No, no. And I think I've heard the same kind of criticisms about, you know, concepts like this where it becomes almost commodity. Like if, if I trade in this commodity, then you'll trade in that commodity. But, you know, out of the heart it's that we do all these things. So out of a heart that is loving and a heart that it's kind, then your deeds will be good
as well. So yeah, obviously if you're just going to do all these wonderful, kind things to people because you're expecting to get something in return, then it does become work based. And that's not a love language issue. That's a heart issue. That's a Christian relationship issue. Um, you know, if I could even turn this around, God's love language to us is his express kindness. He does it in all these different ways. But again, if your heart is bad,
everything you do will be bad. But if your heart is right toward God and toward other people, if you have a heart of kindness, a tender heart, as Paul says, that manifests a desire to love other people, then you're going to blow that out of the water. You're going to do all kinds of things that express your love to other people, and then it doesn't become transactional. It becomes a genuine expression of a loveliness and a loving kindness that has been shown to you as a believer.
So I think it does fit in. I think it absolutely works for the Christian life.
Yeah. And I think when you are really have in mind that I'm here to bless the world, you know, I'm here to enrich the lives of other people. Everybody that I encounter. God brings things to your mind, you know, acts of kindness that you can do that you wouldn't have thought about on your own. That's right, I was I think I shared this, Chris, with you a few weeks ago. I was up early in the trash. Men could come by to pick up the trash, and, uh, I seldom see them, you know, but I happen to
be out there. And so I just got out of my car real quickly. I said, hey, I just want to thank you for what you do every week, coming by and picking up the trash. And he said, well, somebody's got to do it. You know, I said, I know, but you're doing it, you know, that's right. I said, think of what would happen in this city if you guys didn't come around, pick up the trash. It'd be awful in a couple of weeks, you know. That's right.
So that's the first time I've ever thanked the trash man, you know, and I've been they've done good things for me all these years. But I think God just brought that thought to my mind right there at that moment. You know. So if you have if you have an attitude of kindness, you're going to find a lot of different ways to to express it.
And if I could even just build on that too. I mean, several years ago, when my wife and I first got married, we read through your book and and did the assessment at the end to try to figure out what our. Love languages tended to be and they were sort of one result. And then we did it again a couple of years later, and we found that it actually had changed that, that how we received and
wanted to give love was a little bit different. And it kind of dawned on me that at a certain point, it's really not the the act or the gift itself. It's again, it's the heart. If I love my wife, I'm going to want to do whatever it takes to show her love, even if those things change over time. So it's not being locked into a certain formula per se. It really, truly is about the heart. So I have to always be examining how how do I live with
my wife in an understanding way? How do I understand what her how she receives love the best and just continued to try to manifest a heart that desires to show that to her?
Yeah. That's why I often encourage couples every three weeks or so just to say to the other person, on a scale of 0 to 10, how much love are you feeling coming from me? And if they say anything less than ten, you say, well, what could I do? This week that would they would bring it up and it might, it might not be their primary love language that week because there's something going on. What they need
help in another way. But we want to find out, as you say it and whatever it is, then to the best of our ability, we're willing to do that.
So that's right.
Nate, I want to know, as I was going through your book, the dedication is to your mom, and my guess is there's something about your mom that is that she was very kind in your life. Why did you dedicate it to her?
Well. So. Yeah. Certainly she was kind to me. She was always very loving and very tender when I was growing up. But more specifically, my mom actually went through quite a substantial health trial in the last 12 months. And, and I got to watch not only God restore her, she actually recovered and God restored her and kindness. But then I also got to watch her and my stepdad develop their relationship and watch my stepdad demonstrate loving kindness
to her. And so really, when I watched her whole recovery from this ordeal, I just saw layer upon layer of God's loving kindness to her and through her. And it just really had an impact on me. So who better to dedicate a book to than to your mother? Right. So but that was the reason. That was the core reason. Just by seeing and witnessing God's kindness through her.
So is kindness something that's better caught than taught?
Oh, boy. Well, I mean, Scripture teaches us about it, but certainly we have to catch it. So both. And how's that for a pastoral answer?
I think if you see parents who are kind, you're more likely to be kind. Yes, I agree, I would hope anyway.
Yes, yes that's right.
We hope today's broadcast is encouraging. You tell a friend about our program and you can find our podcast online at Building Relationships US. You'll also see our featured resource today, the book by Pastor Nate Pinkowitz. The Kindness of God Beholding His Goodness in a cruel world. Just go to building relationships us.
Nate, in the book, uh, you discussed the reality of human suffering. How are we able to see God's kindness to us, even in the midst of those difficult times that all of us have in life?
Yeah, that's I think, one of the most challenging things to apprehending and understanding God's kindness as well. You know what happens when God and allow something bad to happen? Or what if he ordains a trial in my life? And I think for believers, we have to remember Romans 828 that we know. And Bible says we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose.
So even in our perspective, it feels like in the moment when we're suffering going through trials, bad things are happening. It can feel temporally like it's all bad, and that this is not going to be an expression of God's kindness. But when we look past the circumstances and we know that, number one, God will use this for some good purpose, or even Hebrews 11, that he's disciplining us for godliness,
or even James chapter one the word of. Consider it all joy, because our faith is being tested and we're being matured. If we can gain perspective and understand that God is doing something in the midst of it all, and that what he's preparing and doing in us and through us for his glory in the end, is an expression of his kindness. Then suddenly our perspective on the trial begins to change. Not that the trial loses any
of its difficulty. I mean, we're going to go through hard things, but if we can come through the trial and worship God in the process, I think that's where we can find encouragement. And some of the most godly believers that I know are people who've gone through, you know, terrible trial and yet have found an experience, God's kindness and his peace in the midst of it. And they
rejoice over their trials. So I think that's really what we have to be, is, is seeing your seeing God's kindness through the trial itself and then praising him for it in the end.
Somewhere, I think recently I heard someone talk about Johnny Ericsson today, and somewhere she had written that she was thinking maybe God would let her take her wheelchair to heaven and sit it in a corner so she could look at it and thank God for the wheelchair all those years. And what happened to her? Uh, that's that's what we wish for every Christian, that they could see the difficult places in their lives as as, you know,
God's behind. And he's using that. I mean, you wonder what kind of ministry would she have had in life if she had not been disabled, you know, all those years, since those teenage years?
Absolutely.
And and of course, we don't know what that would be like, but we can certainly see how God has used her so greatly, you know, and in the midst of that problem. But a person has to be walking closely with God to interpret, you know, suffering and sadness in that manner. Right?
They do. But I also think, too, along with that, a person who, even if they are a believer, but they're not walking closely, many times the Lord will use the trials and the difficulty to bring them closer. So I think, you know, we shy away from trials and difficulty too much. Oh Lord, I don't want you to hurt me. Well, but it's in the trial and through the trial that maybe you do need to grow closer.
Maybe this is God's method of bringing you close. Because if you survive through the trial and still have your faith by God's grace, then you will be stronger. Uh, and so, yeah, he uses trials and difficulty and suffering for good ends.
Yeah. I found it really interesting that you started the book with Susan's story and you went through, you know, diagnosed with Crohn's disease of compounding sickness, arthritis, glaucoma, severe kidney stone. She'd been abused when she was younger. And I thought, how do you begin a book with on kindness with a person who's gone through that and then she finds a lump, you know. So tell us about Susan and and what sparked the beginning of this book?
Yeah, I think with her story was it's a relationship of someone in our church. Her mother was a church member, a very dear, lovely lady. And just I was struck by her story. But I began the book that way. I, I agree, it's counterintuitive, but I began that way because I wanted to tackle a headlong or right on the nose here. The the largest objection, the strongest objection against God's kindness is that God is not kind because he allows these things. And I wanted to just get that
out in the open. Okay. Here. Here's a terrible ordeal that someone has gone through. But we're going to we're going to talk about it. I want to look at the ugly thing in the face, the ugly thing of the trial, and just address it. And then in the end, we see that the Lord actually did use that trial
for good. So I think I think we tend to, to shy away from difficult things because we're afraid that it's going to somehow impugn the character of God, but that's not who he is, you know, he he is the God over all things, even suffering and trials and difficulty. And while he's not the author of sin, he is sovereign over all things. And so I think that we are to praise him in the midst of all storms.
I think about Lamentations 332 for if he causes grief, then he will have compassion according to his abundant loving kindness. So I don't think we should be afraid of talking about hard things, because even in those hard things, God is still kind and he's still good to us.
Yeah. You know, throughout the book you refer to Psalm 63, verse three, which reads, because your loving kindness is better than life, my lips will praise you. Hmm. How is it that we can see God's loving kindness as being better than life itself?
Yeah, it's that's one to ponder for sure. But when you think about all of what life is, you know, we tend to think life being a good thing. But life is also plagued with difficult things. In our life, at least on this world is plagued by sin and the curse of the fall. And so our life is is not always what we would hope or want it to be. And I think that those who are hanging on to this life, I mean, Jesus says, if you love this life, in the end you'll lose it. This
isn't all there is. So I think when we when we consider knowing God, I mean, Jesus said, eternal life exists. And knowing God, if we know him and become acquainted with his character and his righteousness and his kindness, we begin to see that knowing him is actually greater. And that's what the Apostle Paul says. He says all other things. I've counted as loss for the sake of following and knowing Christ. So Paul regarded his life as rubbish in
comparison to knowing the Lord. So. I think that's how we have to view a verse like that, to say that no lovingkindness of God, the expressed goodness of his character, knowing him, is far better than anything we could ever receive in this life. And I'll tell you, if we know Christ in this life and can see that, then we will. We will rejoice in Christ in the next life. And so I think that's that's got to be our heartbeat.
Uh, absolutely. I think every true believer, if they reflect upon God's kindness and and a relationship with him, is more important than anything that that will ever happen in our lives here. So powerful.
That's right.
Does the concept of God's kindness have any implications on how we see culture and world events today?
Yeah, I think it does. You know, we read, you know, places like Psalm two where it talks about the nations raging against God and, and even today, so many people thinking that God owes them something or the universe owes them something, or however they want to spin that, whether they think that that God owes them blessings or favor or or freedoms or whatever, we think that God owes
us as a nation or as a culture. I think an antidote to dealing with that, you know, mistake in that problem is to recognize, again that that God demonstrates common grace because he's good, that God doesn't owe us a thing. And I think if if more people again, this is apart from a saving relationship with Jesus, but even if just nations, uh, humbled themselves, and as the psalmist says in Psalm two, pay homage or kiss the sun, that he might not be angry and you perish along
the way. I think of nations would regard and Revere and fear the Lord, and began to thank him for being good. I think we would see a huge change in world events again, not that these things are saving realities. You know, you don't get saved just by, you know, having and God we trust on a piece of money. That's not what does it. But I think in terms of a world culture, we would be impacted, I think, if people had a right understanding of the God who
created us. But there's a lot of applications, I think, of this doctrine into real world situations. Yeah.
I think all of us struggle with events that are going on in the world today and wondering, where does this lead and what is God doing behind the scenes? And we see through a glass darkly, right, in terms of understanding, uh, contemporary culture and what happens. Yeah.
Thanks for joining us today for building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Our guest is Pastor Nate Pickard, author of The Kindness of God. You can find out more about it at Building Relationships Us Again. Go to Building Relationships with Us.
Nate, I saw the chapter on sanctification and God's kindness, and I wanted to ask you about that because I have been thinking about, uh, process versus outcome. You know, I'm very outcome oriented. What do I need to do and how do I need to get there the quickest I can? And God is seems to be more interested in the process that he is taking me through, rather than just running, rushing to the outcome. He was. Jesus
was that way with his disciples. So explain what you mean by for those who don't know what sanctification is, what is sanctification, and how is God's kindness involved in that? Yeah.
So sanctification is really just a fancy theological word to refer to growing in Christ likeness, growing in your spiritual walk with God. And really, the root of sanctification is really has to do with holiness or God setting you apart for a purpose. He pulls you out of the world, sanctifies you to himself in a relationship with him, but then he grows you in that relationship. And that process
of growth is what we call sanctification. And I think about first Peter chapter two, where talks about like newborn babes when we come to Christ and we long for the pure milk of the word. And he says, but in doing so, as we grow closer to God, we read the Bible, we pray, we grow, and we say no to sin, and we repent and we we grow
in faithfulness that we grow. What he says in respect to salvation, he says, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord, so there's a connection there to growing in Christ and growing in the Lord and experiencing his kindness. And really, I think that what God is doing is that at every step along the way, he is nurturing us and feeding us and tending to us just like
a parent does to their child. You know, you don't have a baby and then teach them how to walk and then say, right, well, you got to get to the end. You got to get a job and go to college and move on. You know, we we minister to them slowly and progressively. We absorb a lot of their, their bad habits and their sins and their tempers. And we absorb that as parents and we walk them through. We discipline them, we train them, we grow them. And
it's an act of kindness, a progressive kindness as a parent. Now, if we know how to do that, albeit not always perfectly, but if we know how to do that as human parents who are sinful, how much more so does a perfect, loving father know how to minister his kindness to us and minister as we grow in Christ's likeness? So I think that all throughout the course of our Christian life, God is ministering little kindnesses to us that grow us and nourish us and bring us closer to him, where
one day we will see him in glory. So I think it's a progressive thing. We experience God's kindness from start to finish all throughout the course of our Christian life.
I think that process, uh, if we have any age like I do, you look back, you can you can realize, oh, it's been a real process, you know, along the way, because we're at a very different point now than we were, you know, so many years ago. And that's encouraging, you know, to recognize that in a person's life. Yeah. What encouragement do you have for the person who is struggling right now in their lives? They're having a hard time experiencing the kindness of God. What would you say to them?
Yeah, I want to encourage folks who are struggling in this area. And that's one of the reasons. The main reason I think I wrote the book, was to try to be an encouragement and a blessing to people. I think that when you're when you've come on hard times, whether you're going through a trial right now or even if you're just sort of hardened to the things of God, I would say begin with just prayer and confession. Go to the Lord directly and just tell him what's what's
on your heart. I don't think this kind of a prayer needs to be a long, articulate, erudite kind of a prayer. This is a prayer of just asking God for help. Uh, confessing your sins. Lord, I don't see you in your kindness. I don't see your goodness. I don't acknowledge all these things that just. I'm struggling with you, Lord. I think admitting that and confessing sins and asking God to forgive you, I think that's a good place to start.
And then when you do find forgiveness, and first John one nine tells us that if we do confess, God is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us from
our unrighteousness. And as he begins to do that, I think reading His Word, you know, devoting yourself to Scripture and reading the promises of God, I would if you're struggling right now, I would just go and live in the Psalms for a season and just look at how even David and the Psalmist's other psalmist convey these feelings to God, where they're struggling, and yet they still acknowledge God's kindness to them, and they learn how to praise
God in the midst of the storms. So I would encourage you, struggling believer, if you're if you're hurting right now, be encouraged and know that God is kind, and just because you don't see it in the moment doesn't mean it's not happening. You're just not paying attention to what he's really doing, but to to get alone with him, to confide in him, to read his word, and to encourage your heart that God really is who he says he is. And he is a good God who does
express his kindness to us. So lift your heads, beloved. God is good.
I found that interesting. You referred to the Psalms because I think you found it illustrated in the Psalms, right? Where the psalmist is open with God. You know, I don't get this. You know, my enemies are overwhelming me, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. You know, just being totally honest with God and, and and even asking, where are you, God? You know, how long before you respond to me, you know, we can
be honest with God. He he knows already how we feel and what our thoughts are, but we reveal them to him. But we're turning to him not just with our frustration and our questions and all of that, but also to say, thank you, God. At least I'm still alive today. At least I still have this, or I still have that or whatever, you know? Uh, yeah. But it can be hard. It can be hard. I understand the struggle there.
Absolutely.
What do you think would happen in the life of a believer if he or she truly understood Good God's kindness for them?
I think it would have a transformative effect. I really do think it would change the way that we think about God. I think that it would it would begin to inform our a right understanding of who he really is, to study out God's attributes, or what some people call his perfections. To really immerse yourself in knowing him deeply and then seeing how he relates to us. I mean, the kindness of God is really how God relates to his people and how he blesses and and demonstrates goodness.
So I think if we could do that, we would know him better. And Jesus says again, knowing him is eternal life. But but more than that, I think we would rightly worship him. I think our worship would increase. I think our sensitivity towards sin. We'd be sensitive to that. We'd want to confess. I think we would pray to him more. We would be nourished in His Word. I think our our love and our tenderness for him would grow, recognizing his loving kindness to us. And so I, I
don't think it does anything negative for the believer. I think there's only positives in this. And so that's been really my hope is that this book would just be a help. It would just be a guide to to at least get people to start thinking about God's kindness in their own life, and maybe thinking about it in places that they maybe hadn't considered before, because it's everywhere. The more I studied it and looked at the whole thing, I realize it's absolutely everywhere and I'm the one who
misses it. I'm the one who doesn't pay attention. Um, so I think if we could, if we could do that, I think our relationship would it would get better. We would love him more. We worship him rightly and we would give him the glory he deserves.
Yeah. You know, I'm always encouraged as a pastor. Uh, I'm sure you are. When I see people, you know, in our congregation that I've known for years who are going through really, really difficult times, but who have a spirit of, thank you, Lord, you know, thank you for all that you've done for me in my life. Because, you know, when you see older people who've been around longer than you have and see the things they're going through and, and yet see their thankfulness to God for
all that he has already done. Uh, I've heard members say the other day said, you know, if God did nothing else for me ever, you know, I just so grateful for everything. It's already happened in my life.
Amen. Amen.
Life. You know. So. Yeah.
Nate, one more question before we go. The Romans 828. That doesn't mean that we figure out everything that God is doing in order to trust him, right?
Absolutely. I mean, there are things there are lots of things that we will never know this side of heaven, as I know you think about Deuteronomy 29, the secret things belong to God, and basically the rest belongs to us here, that that we don't always know God's plan. His thoughts are higher. His ways are so much higher. That's not what the goal is. The goal is not
to figure out God or figure out his plan. The goal is to, by faith, trust in him and throw our heart into his hands and say, Lord, if if you're ordaining a trial, if you're ordaining difficulty, or even if you're ordaining good things, I'm trusting that you will work everything out for good. I think about Joseph when he was abducted and sold into slavery and at the very end of his life, you know, he says what
you meant for evil. God meant for good. And I feel like that has to be our perspective, that that God does mean good for those who trust him and love him, even if we don't see how it all comes together.
Well, Nate, let me thank you for being with us today. I think this topic is a is a timely topic, and I think the way you've treated it in the in the book is going to be very, very helpful to the readers. So thanks for what you have done in in this book as well as the minister you're having there in your local community.
Thank you so much. I appreciate the chance to be on and spend some time with you. Thank you.
Well, what an encouraging conversation about God's kindness. Maybe someone you know needs to hear about this topic and you might be the person who reaches out to them. Are featured. Resource will help you. It's titled The Kindness of God Beholding His Goodness in a Cruel World. Just go to building relationships with us to find out more. Building relationships.us.
And next week, the comfort and compassion we get from experiencing the Book of Psalms.
Heather Holdsworth joins us from Scotland in one week. Our thanks to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry at Moody Bible Institute.
Thanks for listening.