God's heart is tender and he loves you, and he's for you. And he wants you to feel that, not just have it in your head intellectually and know that and have your soul warmed. We do that by coming near like you do a fire and meditating on his mercy for us.
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Well, what if your life were immersed in mercy? What kind of changes would that bring about for you and those around you? In a culture short on compassion, where we find little patience and kindness? We're going to look for the tender heart of God.
Best selling author and Bible teacher Craig Allen Cooper is our guest. You may remember him from the conversation we had with him and his friend Walker Hayes some time ago. Craig wants to open our hearts to the beautiful, merciful heart of God. And if you go to building relationships.us. You'll see our featured resource overflowing mercies. Let's go to
building relationships. Us and Gary. I think this is going to be a great conversation about building relationships that will affect every other relationship.
Well, I think you're right, Chris, because let's face it, our relationship with God is going to impact everything else we do and all of our relationships. So I'm excited about our conversation today.
Well, let me reintroduce our guest, Craig Allen Cooper is a USA today best selling author, keynote speaker. He co-wrote the book Glad You're Here with Grammy nominated country singer songwriter Walker Hayes. That book became a national bestseller. Craig served as one of the founding pastors of redeeming Grace Church in Franklin, Tennessee, and he's the founder of Glad
You're Here Ministries. He lives near Nashville with his wife and four children, and our featured resource is the new book, Overflowing Mercies 100 meditations on the Tender Heart of God. You can find it at the website. Building Relationships us.
Well, Craig, welcome back to Building Relationships.
Thanks so much for having me, Doctor Chapman. I'm thrilled to be here. I think the world of you and your ministry with the five love languages and beyond. So I am just grateful that we get to talk.
Well, we're glad you're here. You know, I often find that people write about what they struggle with. Uh, has there been a wound in your own life? Did you grow up struggling with seeing God as tender and merciful?
You know, I grew up with a very strong culture of achievement. So I was straight a student all through high school. Valedictorian. Um, vice president of my senior class. My actually, my twin brother was the president. We flipped a coin. Uh, so we wouldn't run against each other. We flipped a coin. He won the coin toss, ran for, uh,
for for president. I ran for vice president. But, um, I think I formed a really performance based mindset growing up, and I. I kind of adopted the attitude, you know, of that for nearly every aspect of my life, including spiritually, I would say, the church that we were a part of as a, as a family, you know, focused more on what we have or what we haven't done for God, then on what God has done for us. And so it was it was it was somewhat legalistic. And I
wasn't a believer at the time. And and I was just dead set on excelling at everything. That was kind of my, you know, little G. God. Um, what I was living for, uh, was achievement. And so I actually became a leader in the youth group, uh, even though I wasn't a true believer there and around, um, you know, 17 or 18 years old, through a series of unfortunate events, um, God began to really help me see my need for
him and for the righteousness of another, the righteousness of Jesus. And, uh, so I guess you could say it was a series of unfortunate events because I came to faith in Christ as a college freshman, uh, through the outreach of a campus ministry, as a man was preaching on Jesus conversation with Nicodemus. And I saw myself in Nicodemus and how I just needed life from above and life in Christ, and it completely changed my life. So, yeah, I that's
kind of what I walked through. And, um, struggled initially was seeing God as as tender and merciful, and I do now. Yeah. So.
Well, what motivated you to write the book, this one? Overflowing Mercies.
There's, uh. So Mark Twain said the best way to cheer yourself up is by trying to cheer somebody else up, and I. I think there's a lot of truth in that. And I struggle myself with discouragement. I wrestle with weariness. Um, and I've, I've really tried to encourage and comfort other people with the comfort that I've received from the Lord. So, I mean, I wrote it really to cheer myself up.
And by trying to cheer other people up, I've read, uh, if you're familiar with Spurgeon's morning and evening, um, that devotional, I've read that alongside my Bible for nearly three decades, and it's really served my soul. And I've often thought I'd love to be able to serve people the way Mr. Spurgeon has served me in just a few minutes of being able to take people immediately to the heart of
God and recenter them on on eternal realities. And so that's that's really, you know, why I wrote the book?
Well, I think it's going to accomplish that purpose. Yes. Let's talk about the cover of the book. It looks like a waterfall. How is that imagery, uh, resonate with you?
Uh, I, I actually requested a waterfall for the front. They always ask, you know, you know, do you have any ideas or whatnot? And Eric Peterson designed the cover. I think he did an absolutely stunning job. It's beautiful. Um, the book is great, even if it's just sitting there on a table. Uh, it looks so beautiful. But I requested a waterfall because, um, I believe God's mercies are new every morning, and they're inexhaustibly full of power, and they're more like a deluge than a drip. You know,
it's more like a mighty waterfall than it is. Like a sprinkle. Um, and I, I believe God restrains his wrath with greater might than the Hoover Dam. While all his mercies fall on us with more glory than Niagara Falls. And I've been to Niagara Falls, and it's glorious. My daughter Penelope said she. She's my youngest daughter. She said, daddy, are we in a dream? This is my favorite place I've ever been. And so I was thinking about Niagara Falls,
and I was thinking about just the refreshment. And that in that mist and that glory. And and I just said, hey, can you can you do something? And they blew me away with what they came up with it. I think it's awesome.
Well, that's great. Now, Chris mentioned, uh, an earlier book that you wrote with Walker Hayes entitled Glad You're Here. Uh, for those who didn't hear that story, uh, take us through that. And what happened between the two of you and tell us how, uh, perhaps this book that we're talking about today may be tied to to that event in that book?
Yeah. Yeah. So? So, Walker. He's a country music star. Um, he wrote the song fancy, like. So, you know, many people have heard that. Yeah, we fancy, like, Applebee's. I can't sing, but that's it. There was a dance, it went viral, all that stuff. And. But when we met, uh, he was a he was an atheist. Um, he didn't want to have anything to do with church. Didn't believe in Jesus. And, uh, you know, he was kind of
struggling with a, with a fledgling music career. And I was a church planting pastor, and I was struggling with my own sense of discouragement. And I was wondering, you know, if my life was making any difference to anybody around me, and you would never have put the two of us on paper together to be best friends. But that's exactly
what the Lord did. And he just knit our families together. And, uh, and then in a time of need, after Walker lost a record deal and their family van was repossessed, we secretly gave them our van. We didn't share that with anybody. And, uh, even my twin brother who lives ten minutes from us, we, you know, we kept it a secret. And, you know, Walker felt like he'd never adequately thanked me for that gift. So he wrote a song about it. And the song
is called Craig, which is my first name. And it really highlights our friendship and my relationship with Jesus, which is remarkable because he wrote that song as an atheist, as an unbeliever. And then after they lost their seventh child, Oakley, in childbirth, um, the Lord really drew near to Walker. And, you know, I officiated the funeral. We held Oakley in the hospital, um, and walked with them through that time
of of pain and grief. And the Lord drew near to my friend, and he came to faith in Christ. And and if you read Glad you're here, it's really, um, how the gospel transforms lives through the gift of friendship. Both both mine and his. And, you know, people, many people have said they see the hands and feet of Jesus at at work through. Glad you're here. And I
wanted them to feel his heart through overflowing mercy. So if you see the hands and feet of Jesus and glad you're here, you'll you will sense his heart in this new devotional. Overflowing mercy. Yeah.
Well, Craig, uh, there's probably someone listening right now who doesn't disagree at all about God's love and God's mercy, but they don't feel that they feel far away from forgiveness and kindness. What do you say to that person?
Um, well, I, I want to say the Lord loves you. He loves you and I our hearts. I think they need to be warmed by God's love. Uh, just like in the dead of winter, our bodies need to be warmed by a fire, you know, or warm blanket. Um, we need to get near it and add the kindling and, you know, place the wood, stoke the flame. Um, and we do that in our souls by meditating on God's love and his mercy for us. And that that's how
he reveals himself to us. He says, the Lord, the Lord, the gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and mercy. Um. And God's heart is tender, uh, toward you. I would share with that person. And and he loves you. He's for you. And he wants you to feel that, not just have it in your head intellectually and know that, but to feel it in your
heart and have your soul warmed by his presence. And I think we we do that by meditating, you know, coming near it like you do a fire and meditating on on his mercy for us.
Yeah. Now you write this and I'm quoting here. You say you are relentlessly on the mind of God, and you are incessantly in the heart of God. How do you know that?
Yeah, yeah, well, we know it because he he has said it. And the Lord has continually, consistently over and over and over again communicated his love for us in the scriptures and in sending His Son for us. I, I think of where it says, I've loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I continue my faithfulness to you. And God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish
but have eternal life. And this is how we know what love is, that Christ laid down his life for us. And the fact that the sun came up this morning, you know, in Chicago and Nashville, Tennessee, and all over the world, that's an expression of God's love and his tender mercy. You know, he causes the sun to shine on, on all, you know, the righteous and the unrighteous and and the rain to fall for all. And he is continually,
continually showing and proving his love for us. But there's no greater proof of that than the cross of Calvary, in that the Son of God came and lived the perfect life that we could never live, died as a substitute, received in full the wrath and the punishment that we deserve, and now is raised from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God, and ever lives to make intercession for us. We know God loves us, and because he's proven it on the cross. Yeah.
You know, people have asked me through the years what is God's love language? Um, I read the Bible again, the whole thing again. God speaks all five love languages fluently. Old Testament, New Testament. Mhm.
Yes he.
Does. So as you said, we know he loves us because he's revealed it to us. Now this particular book is a devotional. So there are 100 chapters uh 100 days. So tell us how you structured the book and how you envision people using it.
Yeah. So the way it's structured is each entry has a verse and, and then it's followed by a meditation on God's heart for us. And then that's followed by, uh, some questions for reflection and, and then a prayer that you can make your own. And so you could spend two and a half, three minutes in it, or you could spend 20 minutes or 2 hours, you know, in, in one particular one, there's verses you can look up and all of that. Um, but I envision people would
use it, uh, in three ways. One is their own personal devotions. So really drawing near to the flame of God's love so that your soul is lit on fire by his tender affection. And you do that in, you know, your own personal communion with God, uh, alongside your Bible, just like I've said I've done with morning and evening for years. And the second way is, uh, family devotions. I, you know, that's hard for people at times to know,
how do I lead my family spiritually? And, you know, we found years ago that we're we sit down together. I've got four kids. Um, and so the six of us would sit down together for dinners, you know, regularly, uh, most nights. And and I found, well, we're all here. I have, we have a captive audience. And so we would eat, we'd ask questions, you know, what are your highs and lows of the day and all of that, and, um,
let everybody share. And then at some point, at just at the end of it, as we're done, you know, I would pull out a resource and I'd say, hey, we're going to go through this and have somebody read the verse, somebody read the meditation. Um, somebody asked the question and it, you know, it might be seven minutes. Um, or it could be, you know, 20 minutes or sometimes it lingers longer, but in family devotions where you're already together. Um,
I really wrote the book thinking about that, too. You know, where where that could serve people. And the third way is, is really small group enrichment and encouragement. Um, I like having something when I'm leading a small group to just kind of center us all within, you know, three minutes. Um, and so people could use it in those three ways.
Yeah. When you, uh, with your family, uh, had those devotionals at dinner, did you have the devotional before you ate or after you ate?
That's a great question, actually. You know, you just like anything, you always try stuff and figure out what works and figure out what doesn't work. Um, what we landed on that has worked really well for us is that we all eat the dinner together, and. And then I pull it out once, you know, it's clear everybody's kind of done. I, I will pull out a book or a resource and then and I and what I found I've got older
kids now so. I mean, now the age we're in, I have a 21 year old daughter who's about to graduate from college. I've got an 18 year old son who's about to graduate from high school and go to college. And then I've got a 16 year old who's just now driving, and I've got a 13 year old. She's about to turn 13, um, in just a little bit. And so, you know, what we have found now is I can hand the resource to somebody and say, hey, why don't you, you know, Penelope, why don't you read
the verse for us? And then Charlotte, you know, would you would you read these paragraphs right here and then Joshua, would you read the questions? And, you know, Chris, can you ask some questions? And and uh, in doing that, we get everybody involved. Yeah. And, um, just let it be. I'm trying to normalize spiritual leadership in the home so it doesn't feel weird. You know, it just is normal. It's it's what? You know, it's kind of, hey, we're going to talk about the Lord. Um, and that's been
really effective for us. It's been. I'm grateful for that.
Yeah, yeah. And my children say that one of the most meaningful memories they have growing up was those devotional times each night, you know, with the whole family together, participating, as you say, at their age level. So, um, I just didn't want you sitting there reading the Bible, and the food's getting cold. Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta eat, you gotta eat.
That's right.
You gotta eat. Yeah. Well, let's.
Talk about the power of a devotional life. Now, you're not saying that God loves you more if you read the Bible more, right?
Right. Oh, yes. Right. God's love for us is an everlasting love. It's before we did anything good or bad, you know, it's a steadfast love. It doesn't fluctuate. It doesn't change. It's not like the weather. Cold one day and warm the next. And it's an eternal love. You know, you can't. You can't earn it, but you also can't lose it either. It's. Oh, it is just it's a beautiful thing that his love is fixed, you know? And I, um, I'm so grateful for that. Now, I will say his
love that doesn't fluctuate. That doesn't change our feeling of his love, our our grasp of it, our sense of it that can fluctuate. Just like, you know, if there's a fire blazing in one room and you're and you're outside and you're not near it, um, you're not going to feel that warmth. But if you come inside, you shut the door, you grab your blanket and you get near the fire. Uh, you'll feel it. The fire was always there. It's burning, you know, but you've got to
get near it. And so. Yeah, absolutely. God does not love you more or less, you know, based on your performance. Um, and and thank the Lord for that because we would all we would all, uh, be struggling big time. But our sense of his love can fluctuate, and we want to be near it. We want to sense it and feel it.
Yeah, absolutely. And the more time we spend consciously with God, the more we sense his presence and his direction. Yeah. Yes. Makes a lot of sense.
Yes.
Um, now, Craig, you alluded to this, uh, just a bit earlier, but what is your own personal devotional life look like?
Yeah. So, um, I, I read through the Bible each year. I use a, a one year Bible plan. And I found that years ago. Uh, I think you can get it on one year. Bible online.com. Um, and it I read through the Proverbs, I start in Proverbs and and because it's the shortest entry, it's usually like one verse and I and I and I pray, I try to pray it back and ask God for wisdom and and ask him for understanding and skill and, and living a
life that, that is honoring to him. And then, uh, and then I move into the Psalms and, and I, I usually read it and try to pray through that too. And I follow this plan. Um, and it just really helps me that way, I don't think, what am I supposed to be reading? I had a couple of years where I didn't have any plan at all, and I realized that wasn't, uh, that wasn't serving me. So I go from Proverbs to Psalms, and then I go into the New Testament, and then I end with the, uh,
the Old Testament. And sometimes, you know it if I if I'm pressed for time, I just read the Proverbs, Psalms in the New Testament, and then I'll read in a larger chunk the Old Testament, you know, when I have more time, you know, if I'm traveling or whatnot. But, um, I try to just breathe in Scripture and then breathe out prayer. And that's been my practice, um, now for over 25 years. So it's I mean, I've read through the Bible, I think I'm on my. 27th trip. And, um,
it's been a blessing. And oh, man, I'm so grateful.
That kind of reading devotional reading of the Bible is, is really kind of more like having a conversation with God, isn't it? Because you're listening to him, but you're also talking back, you know, you're responding to him.
So yeah, I was faced with a major decision recently, and I didn't sleep well the night before, and I was really wrestling. I took some notes down and whatnot, and then I came into my home office that next morning and I said, Lord, I really need to hear from you right now. Would you please help me and speak to me? And this doesn't always happen like this. It doesn't. But this was a remarkable moment. But I was in Exodus 36 and in the first, you know,
seven verses or so, the Lord just hugged me. And it was it was it was remarkable. Um, because I was trying to, you know, I was faced with a decision about whether whether or not I go all in with a particular, um, ministry role that would have been by vocational whatnot. And, and the Lord really spoke to me this part where, you know, it's it talks about him, uh, saying they have more than enough for the work of the sanctuary. And so Moses restrained people from coming and
bringing more gifts. And I felt like the Holy Spirit was saying, you know, they they're okay. They don't need any more. And I'm restraining you from from bringing in your gifts right now because I have something else for you and something else for them. And I was able to make the decision full of faith. Um, and and that was it. And that was just my regular reading. Yeah. Um, I was blown away.
God meets us where we are.
Yes, but that was hard. It sounds like Craig. That was that was a hard process to be in because you're trying to. If God had just spoken to you and said you've.
Got to do this.
Then you you could take that and go. But you're having to live through the process and the struggle of not knowing and having to walk by faith rather than sight. Right?
Oh yeah, 100%. And yeah, it is a walk of faith, isn't it? It's, you know, we we wish that the Lord would just tell us everything at times to do this. Don't do that. You know, that was a moment where, uh, the scriptures just came and grabbed a hold of me, laid a hold on me, ran after me, and, uh. And really, I felt like the Holy Spirit hugged me and said, you know, it's okay. And, uh, this is good. Yeah.
Don't you think part of the part of the gold of that is being able to, with devotions, being able to slow down, being able to say, this is really important in my life, I'm going to I'm going to give some time to this, even though I've got a to do list that's longer, you know, I've got to do this and this and this. We're so hurried. We got so much technology, you know, social media and everything.
But to be able to stiller and quiet our heart and allow God to speak, I mean, that's a that's a lost art in a lot of ways.
Yeah. We live in a society. There's so much noise, there's so much noise. And, you know, most people I think are living with their cell phones next to their head, you know, as they go to bed at night. And so the first thing is you pick your cell phone up and, and then you open it up and you've
got notifications and you've got noise. And if you're immediately met with all of that, it's, it's it's very challenging to quiet your heart and to, you know, come into a place of, of communion with the Lord and rest. And so, um, I, I agree with you completely. We, we just need probably more than ever to be become skilled at, uh, at quiet and communion, um, you know, with the Lord and, and and just resting in his presence and, you know, going to the scriptures and breathing that in. Yeah.
Greg, this is a huge question. But, uh, what encouragement would you give to a young believer or someone who's looking to grow in their relationship with the Lord?
Oh, yeah, I, I would say God wants to have a vibrant relationship with you, and he he wants you to sense and know and feel his love. Um, in whatever you're going through, my encouragement would be, uh, tell it to the Lord, tell it to the Lord. That was one of the biggest pieces of of of counsel that I got in, uh, my Christian walk or in.
My pastoral ministry. Um, was was those five words, um, and, you know, we were faced with a, with a moment of, uh, of challenge and whatnot, and I was, uh, going to an older believer asking for his counsel, and he said, here's my encouragement, tell it to the Lord. And so I, uh, like you would your best friend so many of us have had. Just think about somebody who you've been really close with. And you know what marked that relationship? I
would say one of those things was communication. You know, you talked a lot. You shared a lot. Um, and so I would encourage, you know, a younger believer to, you know, have hear from the Lord through the scriptures, you know, go to God and study the scriptures and meditate on them, and then just go tell him everything, whether you're in your car driving, some people are going to think you're crazy, but everybody has AirPods these days.
And and people talk on the phone. And so people walk and they're usually talking to somebody, uh, at least in my neighborhood or listening to a podcast or whatnot. Um, so people, you know, they don't know whether you're talking to a friend or you're talking to the Lord. But so just just put your AirPods in, turn some music on and go tell it all to the Lord. Yeah. That'll help.
Yeah, that's for sure. That's a good starting place. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, what about the Christian who has read the Bible, you know, kind of all their lives, they grew up in the church and they, they have read the Bible kind of regularly, maybe not every day, but they read it. But but they just don't feel God's love and God's mercy.
Mhm.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh well I've been there, which is one of the reasons why, um, I wrote this book is I want them to be encouraged and comforted and strengthened and to feel and sense God's love and his mercy. I think, you know, life is really hard and we air when we take the hard stuff of life and we equate it with the heart of God as if he delights somehow in our troubles. He clearly does not. But he he says, you know, in this world, take heart,
in this world you'll have trouble. But I've overcome the world. And he wants, um, us to take all the stuff that's going on in our lives and the hard stuff and the discouraging things and the hope deferred and the and the, uh, you know, even the sense of like, wow, I feel numb right now and just take it all back to him and and ask him to by the Holy Spirit, do in us, uh, show us his love
and and strengthen us in his grace. And so yeah, that's I, I would encourage the older believer, just keep going back to the wells of of life in Jesus.
I talk about technology for a moment. What do you think social media has done to people's relationship with God?
Mhm. Yeah. There's all kinds of books and articles and everything that are being written about the effect of social media in our hearts and our minds and our lives right now. It's a real deal. And I and, uh, mental health and, and I, I think we were wise to pay attention to that. Um, I, you know, my encouragement would be that there is a world of difference
between table connection and tablet connection. You know, table connection is the, uh, is face to face, eye to eye, heart to heart, soul to soul, person to person, you know, image bearers before God, connecting around a table of grace and mercy where there's acceptance not based on your achievements or your accolades, you know, or your accomplishments or your performance, but just because of who you are, you know? And
there's a difference between that. And then the tablet, um, you know, or social media and we I think we crave acceptance. You know, I think we, we crave a sense of, you know, am I am I loved even though I'm known, you know, and, and and I think that that can be like a, um, what do you call it, a mirage or whatnot in the desert, you know, and where it just looks like, oh, there's water right there. And so you rush to it and then and then
you just have sand in your hands. Yeah. So I, I think we've got to really look at the effect that social media has on our souls and understand that that's not real connection in the way that it is. You know, when you're when you're one on one or around a table of grace or in a small group or in a church, you know, yeah, we we all need grace in this, in this regard, don't we? Yeah.
Yeah. You're right. And the thing is that there's always something online.
There is. Yeah, yeah.
But if we can realize there's always something in the Bible. Yeah.
Yeah. That's good. Uh. So good.
Well, you know, you talked a little bit about this earlier and maybe you wouldn't have anything else to say about it, but the how you utilized, uh, you know, books like this, the one you've written here, devotional books in your family setting. Uh, you know, you mentioned how you allow each family member to read parts of the devotion, that sort of thing. I can see that as being a really, really positive use of a book like this.
I hope so, yeah, I hope it we we actually went through, um, Nancy Guthrie's dinner table devotions and it was really helpful for us. We did it for, you know, a season. It was funny because it was one year, but it took us probably three years to get through it. Yeah, but it's titled Dinner Table, you know, devotions. And I loved it because whether it was on my Kindle, you know, or. Right, we we started we have both copies. We've got the physical copy. We also have the Kindle because, you know,
when you travel and whatnot. That was a bigger book. And yeah. And I, I wanted to be able to just have it wherever we were. And it gets everybody in the family involved. It gets it gets your focus up on the Lord. And there's questions that are already provided for you. I don't know about everybody else, but when I'm done with a with my day, you know, and it's 6:00 at night or seven or whatnot, I'm tired.
And so if somebody's already prepared it for me, uh, this really helpful just to, you know, throw a question around, bat it around. And and so that's what we did in overflowing mercies. That's what I did. Yeah.
I think that's a part of a healthy Christian family. I really do. Now, you also mentioned small groups and talk a moment about the value of being in a small group study of the Bible.
Yeah. The you know, we are more connected as a culture than ever because of what we, you know, talked about with social media, but it's the loneliest culture ever. Yeah. And that's because there's just a world of difference between being connected on your on your phone or Facebook or Instagram or, you know, Twitter or TikTok or whatnot. That's very different than than being connected with somebody who knows
the real you, who loves you and who accepts you. And, um, I, you know, I'm reading a book now and that's talking. It's it's all about achievement culture, but it's talking about how friends, um, really help your mental health. And, you know, for people to, to be able to have a consistent rhythm, you know, where you just know. Every. Yeah. Every Monday night we're doing this, you know, we're, um, every, every
other Wednesday night, it's the it's this. And and you sometimes you have to make yourself go, you know, because you're like, I just want to sit in my PJs and watch jeopardy, you know? Yeah, but, you know, but you make yourself, uh, go. And then I've never walked away from a small group where I'm where I've that I have kind of pushed myself towards going to where
I've thought. Ah, I really regret that use of time. Um, you know, it's, it's I, I'm always appreciative grateful for it and, and it and it's a safeguard and feeds and nourishes our souls in ways that, uh, that don't happen in other ways. Yeah. Yeah.
I've always found that I personally grow far more in my relationship with God when I'm in a small group like that. Yes, there's something about sharing ideas and hearing other people's ideas and where they are in their journey and all it just, I think, I think the Christian life was meant to be lived in community. Yeah. Not not just not in isolation.
Oh, I agree.
Now, in each of the devotions in this book, Overcoming Mercies, uh, there is a section to reflect on what the person has just read. And one of those, uh, I'm going to quote. Where do you see marks of God's grace, mercy, goodness, and love in your life right now? So I want to ask you that question. Where do you see the marks of God's grace and mercy and goodness and love in your life right now?
I love it. I feel like I'm part of your family. And I wrote I wrote that question, and you and you and you turned it on me. I appreciate that. No, I love it, I, I do, um, I, I see God's grace and kindness and mercy to me, um, when he's opening up the scriptures to me in ways that I just I'm kind of in a season where I'm stretched right now and I really need that encouragement and that comfort. And, you know, that's that's happening on a consistent basis. I know I mentioned that X is 36.
That wasn't, you know, but a few weeks ago. So that was a that was a like a pivotal mark, uh, for me. But even this morning as I was reading in the scriptures, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling it up right now. Um, what what struck me when I was in Psalm 94 and it says, if the Lord had not been my help, my soul would have lived in the land of silence when I thought, my foot slips. Your steadfast love, O Lord, held me up. And when the cares of my heart are many, your consolations cheer my soul. And I just.
I read those three verses and I just had a moment with God where I thought about moments where I. I would have slipped, you know, if he hadn't held me up and and how I, I would have lived in the land of silence. But he but his steadfast love, you know, surrounded me. And then I, I thought, you know, what are the cares I'm carrying right now? And and how his consolations cheer my soul. And I was just able to really, you know, commune with the Lord on that.
So I am sensing grace there. And then also on Sunday mornings, we. I'm serving in a church right now as the interim pastor for preaching and teaching at 12 Church in Winchester, Tennessee. And, um, people are coming to faith in Christ. And it's just amazing to, to watch. And we've just baptized, you know, four individuals, which was just incredible. And, uh, and the stories of people saying, the Lord's really meeting me. Uh, it's been a it's been a blessing. So all of that is grace. All
of that is mercy. All that's goodness and love from above. Yeah, yeah.
Talk to the pastor who preaches about mercy, you know, and grace. But he really feels burned out, you know, just kind of depleted of energy. And he's really going through a valley. And you've been a pastor, you're now an interim pastor, among other things, that you're doing. What would you say to that pastor?
Oh, I'd give him a hug. That's the. That's the first thing I would do. I'd say, brother, I'm. You are loved. And I have been right there. I've been right there. I know what that's like. Um, I've served in some form of pastoral ministry for 20 plus years. Uh, about half that time was vocationally in a larger church in East Tennessee. And then, you know, the remainder of the time has been by vocationally. Um, as I helped plant a church, uh, and and then now serving, you know,
with this with 12 church. And I know what it feels like to feel, um, depleted and, and and I've experienced, uh, about three major moments of burnout. And one was early on, you know, my early 20s and, uh, you know, it's I what I would say is pray for good friends. And pursue good friends and, you know, find your people, um, who you can be open and honest with. And, uh, there's this group called refuge that I went to, um,
last year, and I'm going again this year, and. That has been a a huge means of grace in my life, because the I'm on text chains now where guys are just encouraging one another and and you know, they'll ask you how you're doing and they really want to know and you know and then and then there's been coffee meetings that outside of that there's been birthday celebrations, you know, that have happened from that, that were people who who, you know, the Bible talks about, rejoice with those who
rejoice and weep with those who weep. And that that obviously is is a command for us to do. Um, but also it stands to reason that, you know, we need to have those who are able to rejoice with us, you know, in seasons of of abundance and grace and prosperity in your soul and whatnot. But then also, um,
weep with us as well. So I, I would say, you know, keep going back to the Lord and in that well of mercy and grace, and then find good friends that you that that can walk with you, um, through the valley and in the valley, and you'll get on the other side. Yeah.
That's great advice. You know, I think there are a number of pastors who really don't have a close personal friend with whom they can be honest and open, and they're afraid to share with people in the church because they don't want them to be discouraged, you know? Yeah. Uh, but I think if pastors can reach out, you know, to other pastors, uh, I mean, even to pastors who are going through difficult times sharing it with each other, it's going to help both of them. You know, it does. Yeah.
It does. Yeah.
You feel less alone, don't you? Definitely feel less alone. And you feel bolstered and known. Yeah. And it's, you know, find that safe place. Yeah. That's good.
Now, there's one devotional in your book that's titled nevertheless, and you say there's an ocean of tender mercy in that word nevertheless. Unpack that for us.
I love that word. I love that word because it's it's right in Psalm 73. You know, Psalm 7323, it says, nevertheless, I'm continually with you. You hold my right hand. You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me to glory. And it's a it's a psalm of Asaph. And you know, he's explaining in the Psalm that he was he was embittered in soul. Uh, he was envying, you know, the prosperity of the wicked. He was doubting
God's goodness, his sovereignty, his wisdom. He was being wise in his own eyes, and he was acting with, you know, arrogance toward the Lord and complaining, you know, in the bitterness of his soul. And he was he was doubting God's care and his compassion and his control and and, uh, God in his mercy, opens Asaph's heart in his mind as he as he sought the Lord in the sanctuary. And and God enabled him to see the his circumstances
from an eternal perspective. And then that's when everything changed for Asaph. And he was convicted, you know, of of his attitude of unbelief and all of that and convinced of God's grace. And that's where that verse comes, because it says, when my soul was embittered, when I was pricked in my heart, I was brutish and ignorant. I was like a beast toward you. Nevertheless, nevertheless, I'm continually
with you. You hold my right hand, you guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will receive me to glory. So nevertheless is, is, is that God does not treat us as our sins deserve. He he is. He is not repaying us, you know, according to our transgressions. He's he. He knows our frame. He knows exactly how we're made. He knows all the yuck inside and and all of that. And nevertheless, he just loves us. Yeah, he loves us. And he's going to receive us into glory through faith
in Jesus, his son. And so that's one of my favorite words. I'm glad you I'm glad you asked that. Yeah, that is an amazing word, isn't it?
Well, I want to I want to say to a listener who's really discouraged today, go get your Bible and turn to Psalm 73 and verse 23. You read the whole psalm, but focus on that verse because that's God's response to you as well as it was to the author of the psalm. Well, there's another devotional entitled God, Never Waste Your Pain. Have you seen that to be true in your own life?
I have, I have I.
You know, Psalm 103 says he's a redeemer. He redeems our lives from the pit, and he crowns us with steadfast love and mercy. And God is a Redeemer. He takes all of the brokenness and brings beauty out of it. And I have definitely seen that time and time and time again where, you know, he just didn't waste our paint. I you know, I alluded to a season early in my in my early 20s where I was burned out.
What happened was I, I graduated college in three years and went straight into pastoral ministry as the second pastor of a of a church that grew. It ended up growing, you know, from around 150 mark to 1000 mark. And I was I just packed out my schedule. So Monday nights I was doing worship practices because I led worship on Sunday and then Tuesday nights leading the Bible study, Wednesday nights, uh, leading a small group, Thursday nights, preaching
on campus at uh, volunteers for Christ. And and then Friday nights we would do some sort of, uh, social event and activity. Saturday nights I was getting ready for all my responsibilities on Sunday and then church on Sunday. And then I put my date night. We were doing date nights. I put it on Sunday night after a week like that, and, and and I did that for two and a half years. And you can imagine I
was just I was burnt to a crisp. Uh, and then they let me go and, and they and they said, Craig, we, you know, we're going to bring in, you know, somebody who's, who's got a little more, um, uh, ministry experience or this and that. And, and I was devastated. I just, I was like, oh, Lord, it didn't feel like a job change. It felt like a death of a dream and a calling. And I was in the depths of
despair right then. But the Lord used it, and I went and got I stayed in the same church, you know, and, uh, just, just really said, Lord, do whatever it is you want to do. And I then our schedule just completely opened up, and Laura and I, my wife and I stopped arguing. You know, we, we we we.
We started having great conversations and, and.
And the Lord just started to really mend that brokenness and everything. And, and then, uh, you know, before, you know, I had I had staffing experience and recruiting experience. I had a career. It was it was great. And then the church came back and said, hey, we you know, we really regret letting you go and feel like you, you know, you really are a pastor. And would you consider coming back on staff, you know, in order to get prepared to help plan a church? And and that's
what we did. And when we went to plant the church, uh, the job I got was a staffing role, uh, with a believer who had named the company provisions after God is our provider. And he he was fully supportive of me helping plant a church while also working there. And that would have never, ever, ever happened if I hadn't, if I hadn't gone through all of that. And yeah, yeah. So God redeems. Absolutely waste our pain.
Absolutely. Greg, as we come near the end of our time, uh, talk to the person who says, you know, I'm glad, Craig, for you, that you found mercy and grace with God. But I've always felt judged by Christians, and I felt like I'm an outsider to church people. What do you say to that person?
Well, that hurts my heart. You know it. That hurts my heart. That is not the heart of God. Whatever you've experienced on that end is is not coming from God's God's heart for you. And I just would want that individual to know that Jesus was drawn to, you know, people that others would say, you know, what are you what's he doing? Eating and drinking, you know, over here or there? And, and, uh, Jesus was known as a friend of sinners. And we're all sinners. Every one of us.
We we don't have a leg to stand on in, in front of a holy God outside of Christ. And so I love what, uh, Billy Graham has said, that it's it's God's job to judge, you know, it's it's a Holy Spirit's, you know, job to convict. And it's my job to love. Yeah. And, you know, I. I would just want to hug that person and say, you are loved. You are loved, my friend. And let's sit down around a table of grace and let's just talk about all of it. I know people who have church
hurt and and I've experienced that. And so. But there's grace. There's grace for you.
Yep. Amen. Well, I've been reading your devotionals for the last week, and I really like them. The overflowing mercies.
That means a lot.
To me coming from you. Thank you, thank you.
So I'm going to work my way through it. As I said, I've already gotten started, so, uh, but thanks for being with us today. It's been a it's been an enjoyable time and it's been a realistic time talking about our relationship with God. So thanks for the time you invested in this book. And I think it's going to help a lot of people.
Oh, thank you. Thank you for the time and just so grateful to be be here. And thanks for reading it. Yes means a lot.
Again, our featured resource is that book overflowing Mercies 100 meditations on the Tender Heart of God. It's written by our guest today, Craig Allen Cooper, and you can find out more at the website. Building relationships.us again. Go to Building Relationships US.
And next week how you can heal racial divides one friendship at a.
Time. You'll hear Doctor Chapman and Doctor Clarence Schuller speaking to college students in one week. Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve Wick for their work today. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.