Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories. Welcome back everybody. Today I'm here with Tyler Madden, who is the founder and CEO of Laurelless. They're located in Denver, Colorado, doing exclusive, uh, remodels. You know, really excited to have you on the show.
Tyler. Welcome to Builder Stories. Thanks for having me. Super excited to be here and, uh, share some of the lessons I've learned and some of the stuff that I, uh, that I've collected over the years. So excited to be a part of this. Awesome. Well, appreciate you taking the time. So why don't you kick us off, kind of give us a little bit of your background. How'd you get into construction? How'd you start laureles? What do you guys do? Things like that.
The, uh, I mean the, the long story that I'll, that I'll shorten is, um, you know, in high school painted commercially, worked for my dad's company doing big large scale commercial stuff, and I, you know, really learned what it takes to have a work ethic. There's really not a lot of room for, uh, you know, your, your young, you know, entitled mentality.
And then, um, it was funny because all along the way I would work with these four men and these 40, 50, 60-year-old guys in the trades that have obviously done it their whole entire life. And every single one of 'em was like. Get out. Don't do this. Go to college. Go to school, do something else. Don't land here. And I was like, yeah, you got it.
So went to college, got, uh, you know, the, the standard thing that every general contractor goes and gets, got a biology and a chemistry degree thinking I'm gonna go to medical school. Um, college comes, things don't go the way that I want it to. Med school doesn't happen. Trying to figure out, hey, what the hell do I do with my life? Do what everyone does with a biology and a chemistry degree.
And I go get a job at a restaurant, bartending, surfing, that whole thing, uh, rise through the ranks, apply that same concept. How you do anything is how you do everything. If you're gonna do it, don't half ass it. Um, so, you know, get into the management positions at that, uh, business and realize like, I don't like working for other people. I'm not cut out for that. It's just not my jammy jam.
Um. So when I, uh, when I was at the bar, we actually bought our first house, my, my girlfriend at the time. And I, and it was a fixer upper in Denver, Colorado. And we move in and, you know, it, it was a decent house, but nothing was updated, nothing was fixed, nothing was remodeled. And I was like, man, I'd really like to give my girlfriend the nicest house that I can.
Um, you know, you have some people come, you know, some subs, some specific trades come, give you some pricing and you're like, I will learn how to do that 'cause I cannot pay for that. So. In like 2013, I just started tinkering with things, going to YouTube, learning as much as I can through trial and error on my own house. Um, and literally learned as many trades as I possibly could, tried to do things.
Um, and the reason I did it myself wasn't necessarily because I was cheap, but I also did hire out some more key specialty things that I assumed at that point. If you're a career, fill in the blank, tradesman, tile person, carpenter, painter, whatever. If you're a career one of those, and that's how you make your, your exclusive living, you, you've gotta do it really well, right? So I assumed they can surely do it better than me and apply a, a finer tooth comb and be more technical.
And then I would hire them and then they would rush through and they'd be like, well, I don't do this for a living, but I'd like to see X, y, and ZA little bit better. I'd like to see the grout lines lined up vertically instead of like these raw cuts. Pick these things apart after they would leave. But I don't like conflicts. I wouldn't tell 'em that to their face. 'cause I'm like, who am I to tell a career tile person that their, that their job isn't very good.
So I would fix this shit at night. Can we cuss you? You interview a lot of, a lot of contractors. Surely I can't be the first one to cuss. Right? Okay. I'll limit it. Um, so surely like I'm there at night fixing their stuff, learning. Well, if they weren't willing to do it the right way, I'm the guy that's gonna do it the right way.
And all the while I started working with like a friend, uh, a, a business owner of a friend, um, it was like their mom and she was a designer and she would take on like more design stuff and then their clients would want more. Remodel stuff and she'd be like, you're remodeling your house, you can remodel this house.
And I was like, yeah, yes, but no. Uh, so we started doing little things, more cosmetic stuff, and I, I spent two or three years doing that and it got into the point of doing whole entire homes, uh, while I was also simultaneously doing mine. And, and then we started buying real estate and I would self perform a lot of things. And, uh, you know, we grew our bench of, of subcontractors over the years. Specialist things that I didn't want to do.
Uh, so it just grew and grew until I lost my job at the bar. All that was happening as just like a side project side hustle. Lost my job at the bar, went full-time helping this lady. Um, and then I just got tired of being the guy that knew everything about construction, was responsible for creating the layout, the design, the implementation, lining up the schedule, the subs, the budget, everything. And she was just there and I was like.
Cool. You get to like set the curtains in the couch at the end of the project and somehow we're splitting this, not amicably. So that's when I separated from her, started my own business, working for myself, realizing I just wasn't cut out to work for someone else. Um, and that's when we created Lawless. Uh, originally it was called Madden Design 'cause Tyler Madden. And I was like, well, I don't want it always to be married to me.
Like when I want to grow out of doing this stuff, it doesn't make sense to have a business named after me. So we took all the concepts that are like really locked into my DNA of all the things I already mentioned. How you do anything, how you do everything, don't half-ass it. Um, all of those things, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. And we came up with the term lawless. Are you familiar? Have you ever heard the term resting on your laurels?
Yep. Resting on your laurels is a concept that most people attribute to good enough is good enough, and you're just gonna sit back on your laurels because everything is, is just fine. Um, I don't have laurels to rest on. Good enough is never good enough. I always take every little detail and try to zoom into it because I feel like the smallest detail makes the biggest difference. And that's how we run our construction business.
Uh, if I didn't get into construction and I was a, you know, a lawn person, I would apply the same concept to how I cut lawns to, you know, how I, you know, run whatever business I would run. It would have that same concept. So we created that name and uh, and that's kind of what our business has been centered around is, you know, excellence in all we do and trying to Absolutely. Uh. Overdo everything.
Uh, whether it's the communication with the client, whether it's the, the delivery of the, you know, customer service. We like to say that we sell an experience at Laurelless to our clients because we want them to come to us for everything from the concept, the creation of the design to spec, you know, specking out what design features all the materials, and then a one-stop shop all the way through completion of the project, execution of it.
Um, so that they're not looking for designers or architects or any of that. So. Um, we just try and be as much of a boutique firm that does everything from, you know, design to build on remodels, and that's, that's where we found a lot of, um, satisfaction. That's where I found a lot of satisfaction, taking my nuance and, and everything I care about and applying it to remodel construction. Yeah, that's, uh, super awesome man, that, that's, uh, really, you know, really interesting.
I, you know, I, I, I can't say I've ever had anyone, you know, tell me they, they had originally named their company, you know, after themselves, but then had them forethought. To think, man, like one day maybe, you know, I wanna sell this or go off or do something else. Don't want it tied to me. Exactly. That's, uh, that's really smart.
Well, and, and you're a visionary and a founder yourself, and I think there's a lot of parallels between, you know, what your listeners, uh, could and should be hearing. I mean, probably not here to give construction tips. I think there's more value in thinking like a business owner than a contractor on your show and understanding what it takes to grow and scale a business such that you're not. You're not absolutely required to contribute to it, for it to continue running.
And I think that's visionary thinking rather than contractor thinking. So there's a mindset shift I think, that people need to go through. Yeah. So, so what year was this when you, when you officially started Lois? I think it was 2017. 2017? Mm-hmm. Okay. 17, 20 18. Somewhere in there. So what was it like in the first, you know, kind of first year or so, like, you know, just, was it just you, did your wife kind of join immediately or did she Yeah. Join you later? So a lot of it was just me.
She actually had a stable W2 job through all of this. You know, when I'm gallivanting out there, like a, a wannabe business owner and being self-employed when you're, you know, newly self-employed, you don't have paper trail that supports your income trying to get loans and trying to buy real estate, that sort of stuff isn't super easy when you're, you know, an, an entrepreneur. Um, but when I separated from that designer, obviously. I didn't have a faucet that I could just turn on.
That was immediate leads and immediate jobs. Like she was attracting the, the jobs and lining those up. So that was something where I started taking jobs that really I didn't want, just like, I'm sure a lot of contractors are where it's like, I just gotta take the next one that pays me. Um, not the ideal scenario, but you've gotta do whatever you can when you first start to create your reputation and, you know, get out there and have.
You know, uh, a significant wake of, uh, satisfied Paris, significant number of satisfied people in your wake. So. Yeah, very involved on the ground, um, very minimally trying to grow a team. And it wasn't, that was in 20 17, 20 18, and it wasn't until like 2021 that I hired my first full-time employee, which was a project manager. Um, which.
Ultimately just, it was a, it was a reflexive thing where I was like, I just need someone, and it probably wasn't the right hire and at, at that point, you know, they contributed for a couple of years. And then the goal was always to bring my wife into the business. But you also have to do something to accommodate that move where she's giving up a whole entire salary from someone who pays her every two weeks to join my stupid little idea. Where it's like, Hey, we might get paid eventually.
Um, so she joined two years ago, uh, in 2023. Um, full-time as the COO. So I'm the CEO founder visionary, I think in future tense. Uh, and she is the COO, uh, comes from a background in hr. So she thinks in present tense where she takes my ideas and, and puts a game plan together to achieve it. So a really good pairing, uh, on, on paper and working with your spouses, you know. Fraught with challenges as well.
But, um, that's kind of the, the process since like 2021 hired a project manager, I was still hyper involved in doing a lot of the work. Um, it wasn't until maybe a year ago that I really started separating myself from the daily activity of construction and trying to force myself to be CEO visionary, uh, who has a very different role than the people that are actually, you know, swinging hammers. Yeah. So who's, who focuses on sales?
So I currently focus on sales, um, uh, at at least as far as, you know, selling the gospel of what we do. That's something that I'm obviously very passionate about. So I want to have that interaction with the clients, with our homeowners, just to ensure they understand, Hey, here's what our process looks like, here's how we, here's how we differ from other contractors. Uh, just wanna make sure I'm a good fit for you and make sure you're a good fit for me.
Um, you know, I'm sure you've talked to a lot of. A lot of contractors that are taking jobs with just nightmare clients, and that's not what we want. We want to, you know, ensure very early on that it's a, that it's a good two-way street for both of us. So I'm involved in the sales up until the point of creating the estimate, the scope of work, delivery of that, and so on and so forth. And it goes to our project manager.
Awesome. Yeah, no, it's, uh, I, I hear all the time about nightmare, uh, client situations. So how, what, what do you do to, you know, it sounds like you're kind of interviewing them too, so like, do you have any sort of red flags or things that you're looking for to try to decide if someone's gonna be a good fit or not?
Yeah, I think, uh, we, we start early on where our website is, our lead magnet that we refer to, and if anyone comes as a word of mouth referral, if they haven't been to our website, I make sure that they go there. Then we've got our form submission, uh, on our website.
So our website and our forms are designed to weed people out that aren't a good fit for us, rather than us having to answer the phone every single time Joe Schmo calls and ask them all the questions and have a success rate that's extremely low. Um, so. A lot of the questions that we ask on our website is one, like, what, what type of project are you looking for? Is it a basement, is it a bathroom, is it a kitchen? Is it a whole home? Is it an entertaining space?
And then within that category, we're asking them, what's your timeframe? What's your expected budget? Uh, because the biggest thing I wanna make sure of is one. You went through our website, you know what our process looks like. I'm not just the guy that shows up and you have all the parts and pieces that I need and you expect me to put it together. Uh, I wanna make sure they understand. I'm gonna help you through design. I'm gonna spec out the materials.
I'm gonna hold your hand through this whole entire process. Um, so we need them to understand that that's, we don't want a hyper involved client. We want a client that wants to trust their contractor and go live their life in a way that allows us to execute their project without them breathing down our neck. Um, but we earn that trust upfront, so.
Yeah, the making sure they have a realistic budget is like the first thing that we want to come to terms with instead of spinning our wheels, creating a scope of work and an estimate, because we do a very comprehensive scope of work, uh, that ultimately puts us in a position where it's so thorough that we know all of the ins and the outs, with the exception of like. Curve ball stuff you might discover, uh, mold or rot or, or things like that. But we never wanna give them a change order.
So we're spending quite a bit of time creating a thorough scope of work and a price that we will not change. Uh, every time they say, oh, well I want this, every contractor's favorite thing to say is, oh, that that wasn't included, or, that's gonna cause money. We wanna include everything. Give 'em the big number upfront. So if we're wasting time on clients that don't have a realistic budget, um, that's just, that's a huge bummer. So, yeah.
Are, are you asking those questions right outta the gate? Are you educating them on your website about what the cost would be to, to do certain, you know, projects? Exactly. We've got blogs on our website that are, um, that are helping people understand like, hey, what are the, the typical costs?
Um, the thing that we need to, you know, make more clear is a lot of people that are expecting to go find a designer and then hand that design to a contractor, obviously they're expecting to pay a designer. Uh, that amount of money is like, we don't really have a, a direct fee for design. One. 'cause we don't want people to come get design through us and then go take it and shop another contractor. We want them to sign up to work with us throughout.
So we bake those numbers into the rest of the, uh, the rest of the thing. So that's somewhere I think we could educate, uh, our clients a lot more is like, what's the cost of design or what's the benefit of, of using us for your design? Um, but yeah, we're, we're definitely trying to make it clear that, you know, 20, $30,000 isn't really going nearly as far as you used to think. For sure.
So how, how have you, I, I assume early on you, you must have done, you've outsourced the design, but is that now a full-time role within the company, or how do you do the design? I've never outsourced it. Never. It's always been me. Yep. So I've always been design too. Yep, yep. So I've always been, um, the guy that does the architectural design, the floor planning, the layouts, um, all that sort of stuff. Hey, we can move this wall. Hey, we can reimagine this space.
That's always been something that I loved. Doing and, and my brain really works conceptually with Yeah, that's, uh, I'm not surprised that, uh, that, that, that, that you also do the design. Is there anything you called for you Tyler?
Uh, honestly, that's, that's kind of how the business got to where it was, is literally I was the guy that did all the things, whatever it was, if the business needed it, I was always trying to figure out, you know, where's the intersection of, oh, I can save this money by doing it. Self, but I never really understood the opportunity cost.
The opportunity cost is, if I'm busy doing that, that means I can't do something else, which is maybe get more clients, maybe think about the next iteration of the business. All those things are still true. Um, but I, I think any business owner, especially someone who has worked in the field, needs to come to terms with themselves and make that mental decision that. Just because I can do it doesn't mean I should do it. Um, and that's where I'm at currently.
And, and that's where, you know, I'm, I'm also trying to get my wife the COO because she's still jumping into a ton of positions. I'm like, just 'cause we can, doesn't mean we should. Um, that's, that's not a recipe for the growth and scale that we wanna see. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, uh, I think it's the, the natural challenge for any entrepreneur who's really passionate about what you're doing. You, you know, you could do it, but it's like, how do you. How do you delegate?
When's the right time? Like, it's so hard to kind of let, let go a little bit, but you know, it's all about, you know, hiring the right people, building the right team. Uh, so, so what does the rest of the team look like today? So right now we've got, uh, myself, CEO, my wife, COO. We've got an executive assistant, um, for both of us that handles, you know, emails, scheduling, that sort of thing. We've understood the, the value of human capital, um, with low level tasks.
So we've been trying to really get that out of the way. And then we've got a, uh, project. Excuse me, a full-time salaried project manager, a full-time, um, hourly foreman, a full-time hourly laborer. We just had two laborers that we let go just because they weren't reaching our standard and it, it really made me feel like we're sacrificing our offering. So we, we went through a, a phase of cleaning house, um, with, you know, really increasing the. Put and the quality of the output.
And then we've got, uh, VA who does, uh, he helps with our, uh, drafting right now. So, um, we're outsourcing that. Or I'll give him the first iteration and have a meeting about what our, uh, ideas look like. And then, um, outside of that, uh, you're looking at it. Alright. Yep. Yeah. And how many, yeah, how many projects are you guys, you know, managing at one time? So we've got anywhere from four to six projects active at any given time.
Um, where, you know, again, every single one of those is everything from concept to completion. Uh, some of 'em are in the precon, uh, pre-construction planning phase where we're still ironing out all the design materials and, you know, really nailing down and we try and phase all of them such. That, Hey, we don't have a huge team and we, we don't like to outsource a ton.
Um, so we try and phase 'em such that, hey, the guys that are doing demo don't need to be at three places simultaneously where we'll phase those, you know, two to three weeks apart. Um, so yeah, we're, we're really trying to figure out what is that, what's that happy position of our teams' capacity? Uh, plus obviously what the business needs to survive. We've got a fair amount of overhead. Um, you know, when you take on employees.
A lot of times it begs the question, are you taking on employees and are they generating additional revenue to cover their costs and more? Or are you just keeping the same delta between what you make and what you need to spend on everyone? If that margin isn't growing, every time you hire someone, it's really hard pill to swallow where it's like, great, our margins are still the same, we just have more overhead. Um, so that's, that's what we're still honestly trying to figure out is.
Um, at what point does it become more exponential where your margin grows, not, uh, in relation to the number of people like your, your existing team can really start having multiples to their cost, to your, your bottom line. And hey, at what point do they start creating revenue that's 1.5 or two, two x their cost? That's where, you know, I, I think our graph is gonna start hockey sticking, uh, but we're still, we're still trying to find that.
Have you do, do you guys have like an annual budget for the company where you've, you know, really tried to model out kinda what the, what the revenue goals are? You know? Yep. Overhead is kind of, does that, you know, do you use that to help sort of inform when to make those hires? We do. So the other team member that I left out was, uh, we, we do have a fractional CFO, uh, fractional, meaning he's not just exclusively working for us.
We pay him, he works for multiple different businesses as their CFO 'cause we don't need a full-time CFO. I don't want to give someone, you know, whatever it takes to, to hire one as a salary, but. For our needs. Um, you know, he's contributing to helping us forecast and he's doing all of our, uh, accounting. He's doing all of our forecasting, uh, looking at all of our work in progress, identifying, Hey, you guys have, you know, the goals of hitting X revenue annually. Here's your burn rate.
Here's how many jobs you need, you know, on a monthly, or how much money, revenue you need to create monthly, quarterly, all of that. So we've got our, our annual goals, um, we've got our quarterly goals, and then he's helping us make sure that we're making the right. Visions. Um, but also it's, it's always, it's always that problem of like, well, you can't afford to hire someone, so you're the guy, uh, where I'm like, well, I don't love that.
What's your, I mean, when you, when you think about continuing to build the team, like what is your hiring process like? How, how do you recruit people? How do you vet them? You know, it sounds like you've let a couple people go. Would you? Mm-hmm. Would you attribute that to, you know, did, did you make the wrong hire or did the company grow and they couldn't keep up? Kind of how, you know, how do you sort of think about continuing to build? I think it's, yeah.
I, I think it's a combination of things. I think, um, as a visionary and founder, you've gotta do a good job at inspiring a team with a vision for the business. Um, just as you have at Job Tread where you had a vision and you've inspired a lot of people to, to join that vision. And at a certain point, if you're not providing them enough, uh, enough guidance with what the business aims to achieve and. Um, you're not vetting them and verifying, Hey, what does the business need from this position?
Um, identifying the roles and responsibilities instead of having ambiguous guidelines on like, Hey, I think your job should entail, you know, this, that and the other. Um, so the first couple of hires, we didn't have near enough systems processes. It was just like, Hey, you could join the team 'cause you're eager and you reached out to me. I didn't even have a job posting like, yeah, you're in. Um, that was, that was the initial kind of.
Process of hiring and I didn't love it and it didn't benefit the business. Um, and honestly, we're still going through that where my, my goal for the business since before I ever hired my first employee, was always to, um, create something with the business that is a beacon of excellence that attracts. People that want to contribute to it. That literally attracts tradespeople.
It attracts all the employees where it's like, Hey, we stand for something different In a industry that is plagued by people that think good enough is good enough. If you agree with the concept, the philosophy, and the values that we have, we'd love to, you know. Have someone like that join our team, have a multi multitude of people like that, join our team.
And, and my theory, uh, I read a lot of business books and the theory is if you've got a lot of a players rock stars on your team collectively, that team of rock stars will not permit someone who's just mailing it in. If someone else joins the team and they're clearly not a rock star at their job, the whole collective of the team is like, yeah, we're all contributing to a vision and you're making it. Harder for all of us, so either get better or get out.
Um, that's my dream is to have a team, you know? But ultimately our team is small right now, such that there is no collective, um. So my, my hiring technique, uh, you know, attracting people, I'm spending a lot of time refining our internal messaging, refining our vision, documenting what our, our mission, vision, values, all of that sort of stuff is, and then putting that out into the university at. You know, the website, social media, um, obviously hiring platforms and then networking as well.
I think professional networking locally is, is extremely valuable. Um, I've done that a lot in real estate investing, but very little in, in the building community and that's something that I think would be extremely beneficial, um, is continuing to network.
Uh, the other, the other thing that I would say with our hiring efforts is like, after a number of hires that didn't benefit the business that I, in the way that I expected it to, I wanna be a whole lot more direct during the hiring process of saying, this is all the stuff that I need to see from this, uh, from this job position. Uh, instead of letting them kind of write their own, like roles of responsibilities, say, Hey, what's all the stuff that I do not want to do myself?
Your job is to do those things within this role, uh, and then simultaneously do the same thing with my wife and be like, what are all the things that you're doing that are not your job, that are the project manager's job, that are the designer's job, that are the whatever. So let's create that job listing based on the skills and the tasks and the roles that we're still contributing to that we don't want to, instead of just finding a boiler plate.
Project manager roles and responsibilities online. It's a, it's just a, a standardized thing, whereas like, I, I think my business is specific to me. My wants, my needs, uh, therefore so too to the job descriptions need to be, and I think that's probably true for everyone's business. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I always encourage people like, you know, take as long as you need to find the right person.
Mm-hmm. You know, I've been talking to a lot of people lately who, you know, they say they'll actually pay, you know, the applicant to come spend a day or two like in the field working with them. 'cause it's, it's easy for someone to come and just, you know, put on a, a, a happy game face for an hour in an interview, but like, man to, to go through a full day's worth of grind, like at the. End of that day. Mm-hmm. What's that person like doing?
Do I really wanna, you know, go have a beer with them? Like, are they someone I want to hang out with? Like, is that, you know, the, the, the type of person that will fit well with your culture and your company. And so, you know, I think the, the, the better job you can do, hiring them on the front end, the more likely they'll be successful. And I think you really nailed it.
And as a contractor who's worked in the field and never really had W2 experience working in those formal, uh, arenas of like, Hey, we've got a hierarchy. You report to this person and this person. And like I, I'm not familiar with that world. I've never had a W2 job. I've always been hourly based where it's like you show up, you do your job, you get paid. Uh, where I lack that. That knowledge, that experience.
So that's somewhere where I'm really trying to educate myself and, and get a lot better. And I would beg the same question of you is obviously you grew and scaled the business with some significant, uh, scale. So like those early hires compared to the latter hires, when when you reach a certain scale, you've got people that can help you keep and hold accountability and help dictate the needs of, you know, whatever different departments. I would ask you like during the.
Early portions of your journey, what was hiring like and how did you, how did you get to the point where your business and your efforts really hockey stepped on the graph? 'cause I'm curious to Yeah. To navigate that. I, I think, uh, you know, so I'm, I'm, I'm really fortunate the, the, the kind of the core team as I, as I would describe it, the people who were, were here from the very beginning. I mean, a lot of us, we all worked together at the previous software company. Mm-hmm.
Um, my, my first business we, we sold in 2015. And so, you know, I was, I was fortunate to kind of be able to pick and choose the, the better of the best and kind of bring 'em onto the team. And, and you know, I just, I think there's something to be said about like, you know, having that longevity, being able to just like trust those people because like. You've worked with them for over a decade. Like, you know them.
You know, I, that's it's, it's so hard to, to hire and pay someone to be loyal and to know at the end of the day they're gonna be there. You know? So to the extent that like you find and pick the right people early on, I mean, it makes all the difference in the world. And, you know, it's, it's, it's. Let's see. There's, you can't put the second story on a home if you didn't build a strong foundation Correct. At the ground.
And, you know, I think it's, it's, it's all about, you know, focusing on your team, on your culture. Mm-hmm. You know, like we, we haven't outsourced anything. We don't have any remote people. Like, we all literally work together in the same office. And, and, and we've just put a lot of emphasis on building the right team. The people that you know, you, I mean, arguably you spend more time with, with your coworkers than your own family because of, yep.
How much time you're sleeping at home and it's like, are these the people that we want to go into battle with every single day? Is this who I wanna wake up and spend the next eight hours next to? Like, you gotta focus on building the right team and then putting like this, this, you know, the structure in place where everybody is incentivized and rewarded and recognized for their successes. So many times I see people who, you know, their, their team is awesome.
They're doing great work, but they never take the time to go and show appreciation. Yep. You know, you gotta showcase your people and, and when they're doing great work, like recognize 'em for it, like we do something super simple, but. Every team lunch. Uh, so we, we do team lunch every Wednesday, and we have a who's kicking ass box that anybody throughout the week can put in just a little, you know, a little anonymous. Oh, that's awesome. To recognize someone.
And so the very first thing I do at the beginning of every team launch is I read those out Nice. You know, and it's, this is like a, a, you know, it's a free thing that we do that like, it, it, it cost us nothing to make sure that we're recognizing everybody because. You know, obviously I can't see everything. Nobody can see what everyone's doing all the time, but like we all see each other.
And so by bringing that front and center, you know, it just, it really creates a very, you know, en encouraging culture of people to go above and beyond and to do the things even when nobody's looking. You know, how do you excel, you know, everywhere. And so I think that's like, just such a great system and, and I encourage people like think about how can you take the time. To recognize your people.
I mean, if someone, you know, gets a, gets a shout out in a, in a, in a Google review, like, oh yeah, share that with the whole team. You know, like, thank them. Like let them know like, man, like, you know, I, I, I saw this or I saw that work you did, or I saw how you treated that customer, that other sub or your vendor. Like, just those little things. I think they go so far. Absolutely.
I've learned you can't just like, you know, pay people to be passionate, like you have to genuinely show them you care about them and you want them to excel. Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's definitely something, especially as someone in, you know, the contracting field where if you've come from the trades and you're trying to grow and scale a business, that's a skillset all its own, it's a mindset. We talked about that early on.
It's a mindset all its own that is very vastly different from being an operator or being a tactician where, Hey, I'm just gonna go in and do the damn thing. Where now you have to understand, like we said. Understand the value of human capital and the business can't exist without other people. So how do you figure out how to attract, retain, and celebrate those other people? And, and that's an ongoing mission of ours, is to attract, retain, and celebrate, uh, the people.
Because ultimately this business, if, if those people aren't contributing, the vision doesn't come true. You know, and, and, and you mentioned, you know, celebrating like, I, I think it's so important that you know, you, you don't just celebrate the big goals and the big wins. Like, you gotta find ways to celebrate the small wins along the way. Know this, this being an entrepreneur, building a business, like, there, there is no like, you know, end in sight, right?
Like, you're just constantly nonstop charging ahead, climbing whatever mountain's next, tackling whatever problem gets thrown your way. And it's like, you gotta find ways. To celebrate the small wins. And that's where like, you know, I, I, I really like where, you know, even if, if you have a set of goals, you know, whether it's, you know, a monthly goal, it's, you know, Hey, we want to close out this project and this timeline, or some sort of like, just find the small wins.
Yep. And then find ways to, to celebrate, you know, bring in, you know, breakfast tacos or have a happy hour or, or take the team out, you know, to, to a lunch or Yeah. You know, dinner or something like that. Like, I think that's, like, that goes so far. Mm-hmm. You know, and it really helps to just show people that like. Guys, it's, it is not just about, you know, closing out and, you know, maximizing our profit every job, or like, Hey, like, I, I wanna recognize you. I want to thank you.
You know, I, I, I think too, like, I encourage people to also think about like not just your immediate employees. Mm-hmm. You know, but think about the greater kind of community that their families, the people that. At the end of the day, like, you know, if you can involve them, maybe, you know, and it's not all the time, but like some events, maybe the holiday parties, things like that.
But like, invite the extended families and let them come and feel like they're part of this, you know, this, this movement, this, this community that, and subcontractors and, and their families, vendors. That's, that's exactly, you know, our, our thought processes, not just putting our heads down and pretending nothing else matters. It's how do you involve the, the greater community? How do you network within it? How do you get them?
To understand what you stand for and, you know, show gratitude to their contributions. Absolutely. So I'm curious, you, you said you, you, you read a lot of books. Do you have any, uh, any favorites that, that you'd like, recommend for others? Yeah, uh, they're not tactical like business books. I'm, I'm much more of like a, a mindset guy. Um, you just mentioned something that really resonates with me, where you're always chasing the next mountain.
There's, there's always, every, every time you hit a goal, you're like, oh, well. Yeah, but it could have been better or could have been bigger, could have been whatever. And then you set your sights immediately on the next thing. I never celebrate small wins. I don't even celebrate big wins. You know, you get to 'em and you're like, fuck, next, next could have been a little bit better, even when they're great.
Um, so that's like a mind mindset of, of maintaining perspective and gratitude for what's happening right now. Um, and the book that I love that really supports that is called The Gap. End the gain. It's, uh, written by Dan Sullivan and, uh, Benjamin Hardy. I think, uh, they've written a number of books and I love every single one of them. Um, but it's called The Gap in the Gain.
And the premise about that is like, if you look at a timeline of like where you started and where you are along that timeline, uh, if you are measuring or, uh, where you started, where you are and where you want to be. So you're always gonna be between where you started and where you want to be. But if you're measuring the distance between where you currently are and where you want to be. That's called Measuring the Gap.
What I don't have, they shift that whole concept of measure where you are against where you started, and that's called the gain. What have you gained since you started and have gratitude and appreciation and perspective for that rather than saying, well, I don't have that yet. Well, I'm not at $10 million in revenue yet. Well, I don't have 25 uh employees yet. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't.
That's living in the gap and that's always a, a huge recipe for having constant anxiety, constant stress, constant like, ah, well, there's too much to do. Whereas if you flip that on your head where it's like, look at how good we did do, could we have done better? Sure. But look at how well we did. Do Awesome. Love it.
Uh, my, my, my favorite book right now, I mean, it, it was, uh, uh, they Ask You Answer by Marcus Sheridan, but, uh, he, he just put out a kind of, I think it's a third, third edition of it. It's called Endless Customers. Uh, you know, it's, it's all about, you know, kind. You know, answering all of the questions that your customers may have, like mm-hmm. You know, don't, don't just like wait for them to call in and ask questions.
Like, the better you can be about providing education and, and leveraging videos and all of the content and everything that like, you know, that they need to know. You know? 'cause people, we, you know, as sales people we're all getting asked the same questions over and over and over again. He's like, you need to answer those questions and answer all of the hardest questions, the things that you think. You know, you, you wouldn't wanna share, you wouldn't wanna put out there.
Yeah. He's like, just, you know, do it, you know, that will help them to better understand who you are. And it builds trust. Mm-hmm. You know, when, when they see that you're being transparent and like you're wanting to do that, like, I think I read this book, the, the first one they ask you answer like. Maybe three or four years ago.
And, uh, it, it like, you know, really transformed how we operate in regards to, like, we used to put out, and you guys have been with us for a long time on job trade. Mm-hmm. We used to do all of our customer town halls and, and the product updates were only for our customers. Mm-hmm. And, you know, his, his premise was that, you know, if you're doing anything, you know.
You know, to, and, and, and you're hiding from the competition, or you don't want to share something because competition might find out Yeah, well, you're doing your, your prospects and your customers a disservice because you're making it harder for them to learn about you and what you do and the updates. And so, you know, after that point, like we just, we open it up to everyone, every webinar, it's all transparency, product update.
It's, it's, it's out there and we publish everything on YouTube, like, I love it. Everything. And like, I think that's like really been one of the, the, probably the most transformative things for us. You know, we've got over 500 videos on YouTube now and like Yeah. You know, we, we had, you know, hundreds of customers signing up every month, and we probably only. You know, they only talk to like half of 'em because they're already getting all of that education, all that knowledge.
They see the product. Like they don't need to go through our sales process to, to just go sign up. And like, I, you know, I think his book is just super awesome. You know, he's, this third edition's kind of really brought into, remind me, what was the third edition called? Uh, so it's called Endless Customers. Mm-hmm. And Marcus Sheridan. And, uh, you know, he is, he is also kind of talking about like AI and like sort of really up.
Day to day, but it's, it's very kind of marketing and, and, and video focused. But like, man, the importance of video I think is just like, it, it, you know, I, I think a lot of people don't leverage video enough. Mm-hmm. And I, you know, I, I can't encourage you any more than, than, than I can, like you, you, you gotta leverage video, you know? Yeah. At all phases. I mean, you know, with every customer, right?
Like, I ask people, like, so do you create, you know, do you record a video testimonial? Do you, do you do a video walkthrough? Like, do you ask them, do you interview them? Like, hey. What was the problem you were having? Why did you, you know, hire us? Like, tell us about the experience. Show us the end product. Like, that's like marketing gold. Yeah. And yet people don't do it. They don't go capture that.
I think you, you mentioned a couple things where I think that's like very valuable for sales and, and a lot of people that. Aren't salespeople by nature, I'm not a salesperson. You think you know, the less you share, like you don't wanna share the nitty gritty, the hard questions you want to like, and people expect that salespeople are gonna be a little bit shady and they're not gonna be transparent.
So I could certainly see the value of like the full transparency where, especially for people before they even get to a sales conversation, they've already seen all the. Stuff. So it's, it's also vetting your, your potential customers or clients, whereas like, we gave you all the information, you're still interested, great. You're our people. Yeah. Um, but also like you mentioned, trying to hide from the competition and like keep your nose down and fly under the radar.
And I think that's a lot of people's problem. Mine included, where like, I don't wanna be too transparent, especially on the internet. Like I use, I use social media pretty prevalently personally. I've got a, a fair following and anytime we post something like the internet is full of trolls, like it makes you feel like garbage really quickly. And I'm like, I don't like this.
But to your point, and I think any content creator that's ever, you know, created a following where you're not gonna get a lot of traction right outta the gate, you're not gonna get a lot of interaction, you're not gonna get a lot of clients. But the consistency of doing it, I think for any content creator, um, is where it's at. Where do it, no matter if it benefits you right out of the gate or even in the first however long.
So I, I definitely wanna look into that because it is second nature to be like, uh, I don't wanna like overshare because then some other professional's gonna come tell me I'm dog shit. And like, I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, mean, I think, I think, you know, talking about pricing is probably like the most prevalent example.
Like so many people, they don't want to publish, you know, what is their price or their price range or, or, and, and, and like to Marcus's point, he was like, look, you don't actually have to give them a price, but you have to give them your thought process. Like, help them understand what goes into the price. Like help them understand what drives the price up and what brings the price down. And the complexities of construction, like it's more about kind of creating that education mm-hmm.
And being, you know, transparent with why you price the white, you know, the way you vari, how you come up with the price and all the cost and the factors. And like, I think that's where it's just like super helpful. And I mean, I've, I've seen more and more contractors who, you know, they are publishing. Like, Hey, here's our, you know, our typical.
Average, you know, kitchen remodel might be from X to Y and if you wanted to do a bathroom, like, it just, it gives people that like, you know, that that insight ahead of time so that if they do decide to schedule that call, well you, you know that when you first come out with that price, it's not gonna be that initial sticker shock. Yeah. 'cause you already told them what the range would be. Yeah. We primed them to receive exactly that.
No, I, I think there's, there's a lot to be said about that and I, I haven't thought about it that way. Uh, my social media manager, uh, who does my social media just personally not for the business, uh, posted something recently where it was like a, a comical thing, and the text was like, oh, you think you're gonna get two bathroom remodels and a kitchen remodel for $50,000? And it was just like, there was just like, Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
And then in the comments, everybody, almost like hundreds and thousands. Uh, of comments and there was like multiple hundreds of thousands of views on this, and it just went viral. And I was like, oh, I hate this. Everyone was like, I could do it. I could do it for half of that. I know. I was like, yeah, but you're self-performing, all of that. You're not trying to create and scale a business with overhead and understand your profits and your numbers and hiring out the right people and rock.
You self-perform. And it was just like tearing me apart. I was like, I don't like this at all. Uh, but that's like Instagram in a nutshell. And you're talking about leveraging, you know, either your website or YouTube and, and publishing this stuff, not as like a, a social media. Uh, aspect, but an educational aspect. And I think it would be beneficial for me to take that and understand the value of educating clients. Yeah. Uh, rather than, you know. Going viral on a stupid reel.
I mean, look, don't get me wrong. I mean, like you, you can't complain that you had all of those people, you know, looking at your profile and looking at your website and saying, who is this guy? Like, even if they disagreed, well, they commented, they created engagement, they actually extended the reach for you, and you got him going. Like, I mean, that's like, you know, mission accomplished. You know, you created that, that awareness.
And so like, I, I think it is, you know, again, like it's not, it's not doing what. Everyone is going to agree with. Mm-hmm. It's being real, it's being honest and like, yeah, sure, people can go hire, you know, Chuck in a truck and he can cut every corner under the sun and they're not gonna be satisfied. And, and, and it is what it is. And I think people are starting to see that.
And by you sharing more about the why and the under the hood and like what goes into it and why you don't wanna hire a contractor who's, you know, gonna just give you the cheapest price and go, you know, the jack of all trades. Yeah. So it's, you know, I think it's a, it's, it is important. But, you know, I think, I think with social though, I mean, just, just, just why you brought it up. I mean, like, again, that, that, that, that, that, that again builds the trust. Mm-hmm.
People want to know who are the people behind this company? I percent do I like these people. Do I trust these people? Do I want these people in my home? Like, who are they? You know, and I think that's like so many, so many of these, uh, like entrepreneurs, I see they, they neglect to build their own brand. Yep. And they, they, they, they just post on their, on their, on their company's, you know, pages.
And like, for better, for worse, the, the, the social media sites, they're, they're really downplaying all of the, the, the company's content. They want to, you know, boost the people. Yes. And that's what drives engagement. People are not likely to engage with a company's page. But if, you know, like when I post the same content on job tread and on my. My Facebook, I get like, you know, 50 or a hundred acts. The views, the engagement. Mm-hmm. The likes, the comments. Mm-hmm.
It just goes to show like that, that's what drives people. People want to engage with me, not just some, you know, brand behind the scenes. Some company, I mean, I think you gotta do both, but so many people don't focus on their own personal brand. You, you nailed it. The personal brand. I agree. And that's exactly what I've been focused on. And the trifecta that we talk about all the time is know, like, trust. You want people to know, like, and trust you.
And then no matter what you get into, if they know you as a person and, and Laurelless is not just going to be a remodel business. It will be other, there will be other. Are things under the lawless umbrella, the beacon of excellence.
But whatever I do next, if they already know, like, and trust me, the people that have been supportive of what I do will more than likely support the next thing that I do, regardless of whether I have a reputation in that space, regardless of, of any of my, you know, demonstrated experience or expertise, they already know, like, and trust me. And there's nothing more valuable that you can earn, in my opinion. I care about you. Uh, I wanna do right by you.
Let's, let's make this happen instead of just a business that everyone's suspicious of. Yeah. Couldn't, couldn't agree more. All right, so as, as we kind of wrap this up here, I'm curious, like, you know, if, if you were to have to pick a couple pieces of advice to share with others, you know, is there anything that you know now that you wish you would've known when you're starting off on your journey?
You know, just kind of what, what, what, what guidance, what advice would you give to others who are maybe earlier on thinking about making the plunge, you know, starting their own thing? Um, it's funny, I just had a conversation with, uh, my HVAC guy, uh, yesterday. He's in the field and want, wants to own the business, and I was like, dude, you, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot ahead of you.
Um, we touched on it a couple times and the biggest thing that I would, uh, that I would recommend is, you know, you, you can't do it by yourself. If you expect that you're gonna, that you're gonna, you know, go be chuck in a truck and you're gonna be the one guy that does the sales, the marketing, the operations, the accounting, you're gonna do all of that. Understand what you're signing up for, and understand that that is not sustainable.
So at a certain point, you are going to need to figure out how to attract talent, how to manage that talent, and how to hold that talent.
Accountable, whatever that talent is, whether it's a sales person, a marketing person, an an operations person, a foreman, a a technician, whatever the case, and then you're gonna have to figure out how to grow from just the guy that does the things to managing people and managing people and holding people accountable, um, is a whole different world that, you know, frankly, I don't think a lot of us guys from the trades are really set up for. But, um. It does have its values.
I mean, you're working for yourself. Uh, when you're working for yourself. It doesn't mean that you just have the ultimate amount of flexibility. You think you're a business owner, so you just have all the free time in the world. No, you'll work harder than you have ever worked in your whole entire life, but it's for a purpose. And, you know, getting into the mindset thing, um.
I haven't really mentioned it, but the, the thing that I like to keep front and center for myself is why like, uh, people call it your why, like what's your why? My why is to have more financial and time freedom for myself and my family, and I don't think I'm gonna get that from having a job or a salary through a business. I think I'll find that by creating a business that can generate enough momentum and, and attract enough people such that it is.
Um, providing me personally with, with that why, and have a meaningful place for people to work and earn for their families. That's my why. Um, I would challenge anyone and everyone to understand what's your why. If your why is like, oh, I hate having a boss and I just wanna make more money, where it's like, figure out what you really signed up for.
Um, so figure out your why and then understand how you're gonna have to grow and educate yourself in different ways than you, than you're already, you know, figuring out in your W2 or your hourly position. You've gotta become a whole different person to start. Grow and operate a business, but it's worth it. No, I think that's, that's all great advice.
And you know, I think one thing though that, you know, you, you, you might not have mentioned and, and just kind of we talked about earlier, but like you, you don't have to have a business degree to figure all this out. Like there are so many other ways that you can go and, and acquire this knowledge and this education and, and this skillset like again. Networking with others. Yeah. Adjoining coaching groups, like there's so many different networks out there of people who want to help you.
All you gotta do is show up in the right place. Absolutely learn and surround yourself by people who have already been there and done that. Mm-hmm. And then focus on it. Devote time to your own personal and professional development. That's how you can keep excelling. Like you're not gonna know everything day one, you know, expect it. That is just a fact. But like as long as like you, you, you reflect on and you learn from what worked, what didn't work, what could I do better next time?
You know, I think Tyler and I both, you know, sort of sometimes we're always looking at, well that was good, but like, what could I done better? Yes. You know, have that mindset and do focus on continual improvement. Like never get stuck, you know, in your ways. Never think that just 'cause I've been doing it for the last. 10, 20, 50 years. That's, that's the way I should keep doing it. Like, that isn't the case. Like you can't just accept status quo. Mm-hmm.
You know, it's, it's so important to just keep growing and keep learning and. I, I think same thing, you know, with, with what you said about knowing your why, like, I mean, for, for me too, that's, that's exactly like I work more hours than anybody, you know? I, I, I'm not in this for the money. I've already sold a company. I, I do not need the paycheck. Like, I'm here because like, I want. To give back and to help others. Like I, I was super fortunate.
My, my dad, he is, he was my CFO, my last company, CFO of this company. Awesome. You know, he, I, I, I'm the son of an entrepreneur. Like it's natural that I would become an entrepreneur, but like I understand what he did for me and how he was my mentor growing up, and my advisor and my guide and like, I want to help. Other people be able to have, you know, that, that same inspiration and motivation and drive and like somebody to tell you, like, you can do it.
Like, here are the things that you need to focus on. Go do it. Go, you know, don't accept no, like, just be persistent. Try work hard. You know? And those are the things that like, you know, at, at the end of the day, like my goal is to create the biggest platform that I possibly can to help the most number up. You know, contractors out there to build a successful business.
Like I've seen what it takes and, you know, I, I, I just, I hope as many other people can have that same level of success and that's, that's what drives and motivates me. And it's, well, you just gave me goosebumps. No, and, and I think I love everything you just said, like you were primed to think like this. Think like an entrepreneur where most people that are going to make that decision to start their own business after working in the trades.
We're not, you know, they're probably gonna be the exception in their family. And, and your point about getting around other people and networking and educating yourself, uh, you don't, you know, I, I think there's a lot of valuable ways to do that. One is listening to podcasts, reading or listening to books. If you haven't started doing that, that is an extremely free version of educating yourself, hearing from other people.
And, and something else you said is, see that other people have achieved what you are setting out to do, therefore, you have. Proof of concept that it can work instead of, you know, accepting what the world tells most of us, uh, or what we are hearing from the world where it's like, yeah, other people do that. You don't do that. You're not an entrepreneur. You can't start your own business. Like the world won't believe in you. So you've gotta believe in your damn self.
And in order to support your, uh, your dreams or your goals, it's really important to put yourself around people that have done it and that are proof that have done it. So whatever you're doing, you should be putting yourself in rooms around people that are better than you at the things that you want to do. Surround yourself with people that have. Already done what you aim to do and then you be the dumbest person in the world, uh, or in the room.
Be the dumbest person in the room and ask great questions. Ask great questions from the people that have done it. Educate yourself. If you're spending time on social media scrolling and just laughing at dog videos and shit like that, go follow some meaningful accounts that post valuable things related to business. If you're gonna consume content, you should consume very. Positive educational content that supports what you're trying to do.
Go follow business pages, motivational pages, contractor pages, join the groups, listen to podcasts, listen to books. You don't even need a formal mentor. You know, Eric can be your mentor with a different guest every single week. There's how many different podcasts? How many different books Make those people your, your mentors without, you know, the formality, but it's going to take intention, uh, and doing exactly what Eric said is.
You've got to find the education out there because it's all out there. How many businesses have been built to think that you aren't capable of doing it is ludicrous. You just need to educate yourself and change your, your old habits in order to achieve new goals. Absolutely couldn't, couldn't agree more. Tyler, look, I, I really appreciate you coming on. I feel like you and I could probably, uh, do this all day, uh, for I had a drinkable deer with you.
Uh, but look, thank, thank you again for, you know, for everything that you've done for being that inspiration for others out there. You know, I can tell that, that, that you really, truly lead with a purpose. You wear your heart on your sleeve. You've, you've done awesome work. You're, I mean, you're, you're in kitchen behind you is incredible looking. Thank you. Uh, but all of the work that I've seen you do is just really top notch. So, you know, again, thanks.
Thanks for leading by example, really setting the bar as high as you possibly can for the industry as a whole. That's what will keep elevating all of us. I really appreciate you. Thank you for coming on today. Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate what you're doing for the industry as well. And I, I think, you know, the more people that know, uh, you know that they're, they're still heart in the industry, uh, the better.
So thanks for letting me share my story and, and thanks for putting out the education that you are. Absolutely see you soon. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review. And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us@builderstories.com. We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours.