... welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories. How's it going, everybody? I am excited to be here with Joe Averill. He is the owner of Deck Science. They are located in Elk River, uh, Minnesota. So, we, we got someone, uh, who is, I think, uh, you said in below
seven-degree weather right now. Uh, I, I know we, uh, we had a, a, a Job Tread event, I think, last week or the week before, well, where, uh, Joe came out, you know, got to spend some time with our team. But, uh, lit- little background on Joe, cool thing, we, we've actually, uh, known each other for a few years now. Met Joe, I think it was back in 2023 at the Mile High Profits Summit. You know, awesome guy, doing some really
great work. You know, they, they exclusively focus on decks, so I'm real excited to finally get Joe here on, on this, on, uh, on the show. You know, wanna welcome you to Builder Stories, Joe. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited. Just a- Yeah. ... just another deck guy. (laughs) Well, hey, look, we're, we're, we're glad to have you. So why don't you give us a little bit of background? I mean, h-
how did you get into, to building decks to begin with? What, what led to, to you starting your company? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a long story, but if I rewind. So I'm, I'm 26 right now, but, um, it all kind of started back when I was in college. So I was actually, like, in school to be a physician's assistant and, like, everything was on track. Was doing good grades, whatever. But, like, halfway through my junior year, I was starting to get work experience
and it was the worst job of my life. Like, it was a miserable couple of months. So it, it took me a while, but halfway through my junior year, I actually left college. And it was probably top three worst days of my life. Like, skipped my morning class, packed everything up, didn't tell any of my buddies that I lived with, and just went home. And then when I got home, probably cried for a good half hour just 'cause, I mean, you felt like an absolute failure, you know, leaving school. Um,
so long story short, we got over that. Um, started working with my dad's company, so he's a commercial GC. Kind of a smaller company. Um, so I did that for, like, two years and was just getting frustrated with how life was going basically. Um, so I went on, like, and this is kind of weird, but I went on, like, a one-week road trip by myself to just clear my thoughts, right? So went out to Montana from Minnesota, just listening to, like, business
podcasts the whole time, you know. Just trying to, like, get ideas, what am I gonna do? And it was day seven on the ride back where it, like, crystallized for me, like, I just, I don't care what I'm gonna do. As long as it's one thing and it's, it's... I d- I don't want moving parts. Like, 'cause working for a commercial GC, everything's custom, everything's different, and I, I just couldn't deal with it. So that's how I ended up on
decks. It was one thing, it fit that, um, profile, and I got super lucky too 'cause my first year, my best friend, he had a fence and deck company. And when I was trying to start my own thing is when they were dropping decks to focus on fences. So they were still getting deck leads, so I was able to buy those. So I actually owe that guy, like, everything for my first year. (laughs) That was probably, like, 90% of our first year leads. Wow. Super lucky, yeah.
Yeah, so, so you just, like, he, he had, I guess, the website and the leads and everything coming in, but just didn't want to do them. Exactly. So, like, what, how'd you decide? W- what, what'd you pay him? I mean, was it, like, 50 bucks? Yeah. 100 bucks? Yeah. No, it was a super good deal too 'cause I only had to pay him when I, if I closed the deal. So I only had to pay him if I got the money. Oh, wow. Um, and it was, like, it's, like, 250 or 2%, whatever was higher. So- Nice. ... super cheap.
All right. Well, hey, that's, uh, that's, that's a great way to, to figure out what you wanted to do. I mean, I- Yeah. ... that's the... Funny enough, most people don't know about me, but I actually, uh, I w- I went into my undergrad as, uh, mechanical engineering. And I think it was, like, my s- it was my third semester, so first, first semester my, uh, my sophomore year. And I was just, like, totally overwhelmed. I was in, like,
thermodynamics, statics, physics II. Like, I couldn't finish any of the exams. I was like, "What in the world is happening here?" And I ended up withdrawing from, uh, from the engineering school as well. Took, uh, took the rest of the semester off. I, I literally just played poker for an entire semester. (laughs) And, uh- I should've done that. ... I di- I did end up going back. I transferred into, uh, into the business school
my, my, I guess what would've been my third year of college and, and ended up, uh, finishing up over there. But yeah, I mean, I, I feel you, man. Like, when you get into something and you realize, like, this is just not my jam. Like, not- Yeah. ... you know, I am not happy, I'm struggling, like, something isn't right. You know, you gotta make a change. So, you know, kudos to you for, you know, for, for being able to, to make that tough call. I mean, it's, you know, no, it's, it's, it's very
hard sometimes to, to realize that, hey, you know, this, this is a sunk cost. Like, I need to just- Mm-hmm. ... you know, figure something else out. Um, so, you know, I, I, I can imagine how tough that was, but- Yeah, yeah. ... but- It felt impossible. (laughs) Yeah. You know, I've, I've, I've heard those, uh, those, those solo trips are pretty, uh,
pretty enlightening. I, I haven't done one myself. Uh, my, my, my wife, she, when, right after we met, she ended up, uh, moving to Spain for a year to go teach- Mm-hmm. ... uh, teach, uh, English to kindergartners. But she, uh, she did a lot of them. Said it was just, like, some of the greatest time. Like, you really can just clear your head and have all sorts of, you know, kind of
just epiphanies just like when you're, when you're in your own space, not worried about anything else. So sounds like that worked out well for you. Yeah, 1,000%. You gotta get out on the road there. (laughs) Yeah. So, so decks though, I mean, you know, uh, going from commercial general contracting, you know, to, to decks. I mean, that, that, that's a really kind of, I'd say fairly big shift, but a very focused and intentional shift, which,
you know, I think was really smart of you. I mean, uh, you know, being able to just hone in on one trade and do one thing great, you know, is, is a really good move, especially early on. You know, you needed to know, like, you know, what can I market myself on? What can I build this brand on and what can I do great? And so you, you got into decks. Did... But was this, like, your first real experience building decks or, like, did you do some building of decks before?
No, I mean, the beauty of a deck is, like, the building of it's kind of the easy part. Especially, like, I, I was doing, like, like, tenant finish-outs, remodels, like, more complicated, more moving parts. So the building of the deck is the easy part, which is awesome, but yeah, to your point of, like, niching down. I kinda swung the pendulum really far the other way. So not only do we just do decks, like, there's a million deck brands, there's a million deck boards, there's a million colors.
We literally just work with one brand. We only offer three qualities, even though they have, like, five tiers. We only offer three, just a good, better, best. And we only show them three colors, even though they might have five colors. So we try to keep it as simple as possible. If, obviously, the customer finds something else they like, we can source it, but we try to keep it as simple as possible 'cause there's, um, you know the, the ice cream parlor study? Yep.
Are you familiar with that one? Or, I can- Uh- ... I can go... I can go. I think you're good. You prob- Yeah, you probably are familiar with it, but I heard this and this is what inspired me. It's basically, like, they did, like, an actual study on, um,
people making choices at an ice cream parlor. So when you, when they went into an ice cream parlor and there was, like, 12 different flavors, on average, people took longer to decide and they were less satisfied with their ultimate choice 'cause they were just like, "Oh, that other one might've been better." But when there was just chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry, people chose quicker
and they were more satisfied. So if my goal as a builder is to make my client as satisfied as possible, that seems like pretty good evidence to, or reasoning to offer less choices, as counterintuitive as it seems, because I know most deck builders are, like, you know, sometimes even build outl- (clears throat) ... like, a crazy custom trailer with every single sample under the sun and it's just- No. It can be overwhelming.
Yeah. No, that's, that's great. You know, I've, I've definitely... I, I know too. I mean, same thing goes with pricing. If you give people- Mm-hmm. ... three choices, you know, let's say, you know, the, the, the cheapest, you know, middle of the road, and the most expensive, you know, the majority of the time, they're gonna choose that middle of the road price. Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's, it's good to, you know,
kind of give fewer choices and options. Uh, just like you said, it, it helps them feel more confident, more easily make a decision versus, you know, you can get, you know, o- ... if, if you give them every option under the sun, like, you know, it could just, like, be, you know, debilitating and they just can't make any choice- Yeah. ... and you can't move forward.
Yeah. 1,000%. And that's exactly how our job trade proposals are laid out, where it's just demolition is one thing, framing is one thing, decking, here's your good, better, best, you pick. Yeah. And then the railings, we typically only work with one style, so they only have one option, sometimes two options for the railing, and that's it. Sure. Do, do you have a, uh, a go-to manufacturer that, that you like? For the railings or the decking? Uh, both.
Yeah, for the decking, we use the TimberTech. Um, I mean, comparable between that and Trex. Some people have their opinions, but whatever. Um, the reason I like TimberTech is, as we go up those quality levels, the colors were the same. Hmm. So you can pretty clearly show a client, like, "Hey, this is good, better, best of..." But they're going for the same thing with this color, but you can see how it gets better
as you go up. Whereas with the Trex, as you go up lines, it's totally new colors every time, and it was harder to lay out clearly. Um, and then the railing, we used, uh, or mainly used this brand called Westbury. They're really popular in the Midwest. I don't know about the rest of the country, but it's just basically, um, an aluminum powder-coated railing. Sure. But that's- So you said... Yeah. So, well, I'm, I'm curious. So you said you're 26 now. Yeah.
When did you start the business? How, how old were you then? Oh. I don't know exactly. I think we wrapped up... 2022, I started, so- Okay. Maybe '23, something like that. S- s- so very young, uh, you know, to, to start your own business. That's, that's awesome- Yeah. ... uh, you know, to, to, to see you do that. I mean, what would you say, like, what were the hardest things that, you know, you, you, you didn't quite anticipate going into it? That is a super good question.
Uh, some of the hardest things that I didn't anticipate? It's probably once you get, like... Here's what it was. It was getting off the tools, that was the hardest thing. I was, I said that was my goal for over a year before it actually happened. Hm. And I've still been guilty of it the last year or two, where I had to go out there once or twice, you know. That was probably the hardest jump, 'cause there's a lot of trust you gotta lend out to people that you aren't used to
doing that. And you take so much pride in the thing you create, so to pass that off- Huh. ... to somebody was really tough. But after the first probably three or four months not being on the tools, I kinda calmed down finally. It just took a little bit. Yeah. So h- For sure. ... how long were you, were you actually doing the builds? Uh, probably the first two years, I'd say, and then the last one year, haven't been on it.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think as, as entrepreneurs, right, it's, it's just a natural tendency that, that we wanna wear every hat, we wanna do everything, 'cause we know that we're gonna do it the best. You know, we have this assumption that nobody can, can- Mm-hmm. ... come anywhere close, and that, you know, the business will, will fail if we give up this control. You know, so h- how do
you... You know, what, what helped you actually finally get off the tools? I mean, it sounds like you knew at a certain point going in, probably maybe, like, a year in, but like, you knew you made a, you needed to make a change. Like, what, what helped you sort of realize that? And then what was the catalyst that actually, you know, a year later you were able- Yeah. ... to do it? Yeah. I mean, to the first question, what made me realize it,
I don't know if there's anything that made me realize it. I always just knew, like, I wanted to grow a bigger company. And to do that, I don't think you can stay on the tools forever. Um, but how I did it, it was more of like a weaning off process, I guess. One, it helped that the guys that were, like, working directly with me the previous almost a year, they just b- took over what I was doing basically. So I knew they had a lot of experience.
And then it really helped too the first few jobs to just do my paperwork, like, in the truck at the job site. Mm-hmm. So if I was, like, freaking out or they had a question, I was just still there. Yeah. Yeah. But after about two jobs, we were able to get past that. Gotcha. So, you know, you, you talk about these guys. Like, early on, were, d- did you hire full-time employees? Did you, did you subcontract them? Like, how did you find these, these people to help you do the work?
Yeah. So I had, like, a young guy construction company, so it was literally just hired my younger brother's friends. Okay. 'Cause they needed a job in the summer. (laughs) And then they ended up, I don't know how they ended up staying with me for a full year. I think, yeah, like one of them was trying to get into a HVAC program and they just got too full and didn't accept them for the year, so we just kept building decks. So that's how- Nice. Yeah.
So were they... Like, did you bring them on as employees? Yeah, full-time employees. Yeah. Full-time employees? Okay. Yep, yep. Exactly. Paying work comp, everything. What's your model look like today? Like, do you, are, are they, you still have all full-time employees? How many people do you have? Yeah, now it's kinda hybrid. So we still have the in-house crew, so they're able to do, like, one-off jobs, random stuff, run things around.
Um, but to deal with, like, the influx in the summertime, we work with s- couple of, uh, subcontractors to help with that. Okay. H- how have you, uh, like, what's, what would you say has been the difference of working with, you know, your, your in-house guys versus your subcontractors? 'Cause I hear a lot of people, they, you know, they kinda... You know, there's, there's this big debate, like, you know- Yeah.
... I, I only want my own guys, or I only wanna use subs, and you know, there, there's the pros and cons of both, so I'm kinda curious what, what your experience has been. Yeah. I, I love... The thing I love about the subs is, at the start, our cost is set. So I know my t- material cost is set, now I know my labor cost is set. Before the job starts, I know how profitable we're gonna be. There's not really any surprises. Yeah. So I love that. Um, the downside is, like I was saying, one-off stuff.
Like, if they wanna... Like, a half a day job to go install some railings, it's not super easy to sub that out. Um, running materials, going to a dump site, um, little stuff like that is, just doesn't work with a sub. So that's why I still like having at least one crew on site. Or- Sure. ... on our team. Yeah. So when you f- when you first kind of got off the tools, w- what did you, you know, what did you focus on
initially with, you know, kind of essentially everything on the business side? I mean, did you go full bore sales, you know, kind of project management, eh, the back office accounting? Like, how did you kind of, how did all of these functions sort of come to be that, you know, I'm sure are probably, uh, more flushed out today than they were early on? Yeah. So a lot of, uh... Basically, all the marketing
is, is not something that we take care of, so we work with a lot of agencies for that. So my roles were sales, project management, and then when I was on the tools, production. So the sales and the project management was just getting so much that I kinda had to drop production just to keep up with it. Yeah.
So I was still full time just focusing on two things now. And now I'm kind of at the next level where I'm trying to find a project manager, 'cause I can't hardly keep up with the sales and all the leads that are coming in. Um, so now I'm at that second level of, like, it's scary to let go of the project management and dealing with the customer and making sure everything works out perfectly, so that's something I'm trying to figure out right now.
Yeah. That's great. So would you say, you know, were, ar- ar- have you always just been comfortable doing sales, or, you know, was that a, was that an uncomfortable thing that you hadn't done? Absolutely not, no. (laughs) (laughs) I'm horrible. I'm the type of guy who, when I was a kid, like, my parents would give me money to go into a gas station to buy a snack, and I was too scared to talk to the clerk, so I wouldn't go in and buy anything.
(laughs) So no, not natural at it at all. Um, but I spent a lot of time doing, like, different sales training. Um, basically, every year, I do lots and lots and lots of sales training and lots and lots of talking to people. Um, so that has helped me a ton, a- by just putting money into sales training. Um, and then now that I'm, like, you know, two, three years in, you meet, I don't know, 500 different customers or whatever, it starts to desensitize you, so, (laughs) so- Yeah.
... I'm not as nervous anymore. (laughs) So you just get over it, basically. You just keep going and you get over it. Yeah. It's, it's funny, a l- a l- a lot of people probably don't know this about me though. I mean, I was, like, definitely super introverted, uh, still not the guy that loves a bunch of little small talk and can't just, you know, be totally, uh, comfortable having these, you know, random conversations about, n- you know, what I think is, like, nothing.
Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, I- it, it- It was, it was interesting though, like, you know, e- early on in my first company and, you know, same thing here, like, you know, when, when we go out and we do conferencing and trade shows, like, you know, you're, you're essentially just thrown to the wolves. And people just keep walking up and you have no choice but to interact and to talk and to, you know, engage. And it's like, you know, just like you said, like
after enough reps, it just becomes second nature. It's, you know, super easy. I had- No. ... no qualms. I mean, even public speaking, right? Like, I remember my first, you know, couple times, and I used to travel all around the country talking to, uh, to colleges and universities and like, you know, you get the shakes and you're all worried about public speaking. But now
it's like, ah, it's just a, you know, i- i- i- it's, it's a second nature. But it definitely takes, takes a lot, you know, and, and, and it can really be, uh... internally, it can be quite the struggle to, to kinda get used to it. Uh, but yeah. You know, with enough reps, enough practice, enough experience, you know, I think anyone can, can develop those, those skills. Yeah. It's a big obstacle to get over. And I- (laughs)
... can't even imagine trying to go on stage like you do, so (laughs) props. (laughs) Yeah. I mean, so y- you talked about, though, yo- you've invested, you know, in yourself and, and in training and, and- Yeah. ... specifically it sounds like sales training. I mean, you know, i- i-
and it sounds like you've made a considerable investment in that. You know, I know a lot of people, you know, they, they, you know, one, they probably just don't even know that that's an option, have never thought about it or considered it, you know. So obviously, kinda hearing how you've, you've done that and how it's impacted you, you know, is great. Mm-hmm. But like two, you know, I also hear a bunch of people say, "Ah, you know,
I'm, I'm, I'm too small. I'm too early on. I can't afford it." You know, like, did, did you... you know, were you at a position where like you're like, "Man, like this is, this is gonna be expensive. I don't know if I can afford it." You know, h- how did you make, you know, the decision to invest in that- Mm-hmm. ... training and that coaching and like, you know, 'cause th- it's just a huge struggle for so many people and it's like that chicken and the egg problem, right? Like- Yeah.
... I know I need to get great at sales, but I don't have any sales so I can't invest in getting better. You know, how did you kind of overcome that? The first one's the toughest, by far. Um, at the start, I was... it had probably spent six months just diving into, like, free trainings online and stuff like that, um, to get your feet wet a little bit. But the main theme was, like, if I had any extra money, like I... so if I back up, I kinda shamelessly, I want to make more money. Like,
that's my goal. So where... if I have a little bit of extra money, where can I put it to get the best return? Um, and if I back up even more, I thought that used to be, like, real estate stuff for me. So when I dropped outta school, um, I started like wholesaling and stuff on the side. I didn't have the sales skills at the time to make that work, but I still did, and I recommend this to any young people out there listening, I did do a house hack which is a
huge reason that helped me start this business in the first place. So I bought, like, my first house with, you know, FHA loan, 3.5% down, did the whole thing where you rent out the rooms. And now I wiped out my biggest expense and actually make like 200 bucks a month to live there. So highly- Good. ... recommend that if you're young. Um, but anyways, so the original question, how do I get over the first hump of buying some sort of training.
I basically... I had like... it was like $6500 or whatever, for a year, which is pretty low, um, to what I'm spending now. But I kinda just writ it off, wrote it off, like if this turns into nothing, fine, but I can't just keep trying to learn off of YouTube University. Like, I want more. Um, so I wrote it off as just being gone.
Um, but after I spent that first $6500, and I'll never forget this, it was almost exactly a month later that I got a job that I absolutely would not have gotten unless I had (laughs) joined that program. And that profit from that job was like seven grand, one month later. Wow. And I don't know if everybody will- (clears throat) ... experience something like that, but, um, that was super reinforcing. What... I mean, what- 'Cause it-
Wh- what do you think it was, though? I mean, like was it like you, you had learned- Yeah. ... a tactic or a, you know (laughs) , a word track or how to handle objections or like what- So this is when I was super new still, like first year. So it was just like going from no sales process at all and just like barely replying over text or email to customers to like now let's call them. Let's call them right away. (laughs) Let's hear about their pain a little bit.
(laughs) Let's talk about what they're looking for and then actually go out there. Um, so at the start, it was super basic stuff that helped a lot, and now I just pay more for more advanced things, basically. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think, again, it's, uh, it's something that people don't often realize that, you know, and, and I would say not just
for, you know, for, for early young people. I mean, sometimes there's people who've been doing this for 10, 20, 30 years and they feel- Mm-hmm. ... like, "Oh, you know, I've, I've been doing this. I know how to do it." And they're just, you know... the reality is they're kinda stuck in their ways and, and there may be other ways or better ways or new ways- Yup.
... you know, of, of, of accomplishing, you know, whatever it may be from, you know, sales to, to team building and recruiting to, you know, managing people. I mean, there's, there's, there's so many different avenues that I think people can really benefit from, you know, getting coaching and investing- Mm-hmm.
... in themselves and their own development. You know, it's, it's such an important thing. And you know, just like, just like with you, Joe, I mean, I, you know, I, I see firsthand like the impact when people join these, these groups and they, and, and they invest in themselves and they invest in their team. You know, it's like, you know, you can almost... I mean, it's, you know, I wouldn't say it's like, you know, month one, sometimes month two, but like, you know, in the first
quarter, like you, you just start to see the trajectory of their business. Like it starts like- Yup. ... going up versus like they could've been doing the same thing for the last, you know, couple of years and it's just sort of, you know, they, they, they get to this point where they sort of flatline and, you know, you gotta do something
different. You gotta keep investing in yourself. I, I think that's one of the most important things for, you know, for a good leader and entrepreneurs and, you know, is, is just continually, you know, uh, re- relook at what can you do to improve. You know, it doesn't mean like you have to change everything, but it's those small, you know, incremental improvements
over time. You know, and I think like, s- you know, you, you can't just accept status quo just 'cause it's the comfortable thing, right? Yup. Like it's like what else can we do? How can we improve? You know, how do you go from good to great? And, you know, it sounds like you've, you've really unlocked that and, you know, to the point where it... you're continuing to invest in yourself. You're continuing to, to spend more and more, you know, on this, this, this learning and development.
So, you know, dude, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. And I think if we take that feeling of like, oh, what if this is a scam, or oh, I know everything, I think everybody probably feels that, especially other contractors. So if you, in your area, are the one that can get over that feeling, well nobody else is getting over the feeling. So there's one very clear competitive advantage, is just being able to get over that fear. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So when did you figure out, like, that you needed
systems and, and, and, and processes? I mean, obviously you're, you're using JobTred. I don't know what you were using before. But like at what point did you, did you kinda figure out like, you know... or, or, or tell us. I mean, h- how did you, how did you do it? Yeah. Were you pen and paper, you know, spreadsheets? So before... I started right away with the job management software, but it was a different one. And it was more based around, like, uh, like service-based businesses, like
cleaning companies, pressure washing companies. So it didn't work as good for building out more complex proposals and templates. Um, regrettably though, there was a good year where I first heard of JobTred until I actually joined JobTread. (laughs) So I was kicking myself for that f-... uh, once I finally did join, I was kicking myself for that year that I did not join. Um, sorry, what was the original question though? Start over.
Yeah. I'm just curious kinda like so, so it sounds like, you know, you, you did sort of figure out no early on. You, you needed something in place which- Yup. ... you know, again, a lot of people don't, don't realize that. So maybe like w- what was the... you know, what would you say the impact of having a system has, you know, has, has made on your business? It's way easier to pass things off as I'm trying to jump up levels.
And having everything in like one place within JobTred has just been monumentally helpful, 'cause I don't have to like... we upload all our files to the job. I don't have to look for permits or plans. I don't have to resend... Like I don't have to text my guys anymore the address the night before at 6:00 PM. I don't have to send them the address for tomorrow. You know, they just know to go into JobTred and then clock in when we get there. Um,
so that's super helpful.And then the biggest thing, too, that I love about JobTrit is I was doing job costing just by hand before with other software, which meant I wasn't doing it very much and very consistently. So now just being able to upload costs, receipts, track hours within there, um, means that every single job gets job costed, and it's way quicker. So that extra data has been super helpful. Nice. Do you, you know, do you incorporate it into the sales process? Like is it a- Mm-hmm.
... is it a differentiator for you? Yeah. The proposals in particular, like how we can add the extra pictures, the options and everything. Um, I just had a Zoom presentation with a customer yesterday where she got a little frustrated 'cause... So how our sales process works is like lead reaches out. We do a phone call, we meet on site, and then we do a Zoom presentation. And she was expecting me to just send the bid to her before our Zoom call.
And she got kind of frustrated when we jumped on the call like, "Yeah, I wished you would have just sent me it and I'll... if I have questions, we'll talk about it on the Zoom call." But by the time we were done, she's like, "Oh, okay. I, I get it. I'm so sorry (laughs) I was kind of snippy at the start. Um, yeah, I see why we needed to do the Zoom call. This is like way more in-depth and
way better than any of the other ones that I've seen, so thank you actually." So it ended up working out. Um, but yeah, that's the biggest thing our customers like the most, um, is the differentiation in the proposal itself. Um, kind of side note here, but I've had my... I don't know if this is unethical or not, but I've had (laughs) my brother invite all my competition to his house
to give them a bid on his deck. So I know what all the other ones look like in our area, and they just look like spreadsheets, like Excel spreadsheets or Word docs with no pictures. They're super confusing. Um, so it's pretty easy to beat that. Nice. Yeah, look, man. It's, uh, you gotta know your competition. (laughs) Yeah, we definitely need to know. Uh, so, so however, however you, you know, you figure that out, but, you know, I, I
do think it's, it's important like, like you said, that you have a process. You know what works for, for you, for your business. You know what leads, you know, the, the, the prospect down the path to get them to that optimal, you know, satisfied, we're ready to move forward with you. So, you know, sometimes when, when, when, when your prospects want to sort of deviate from that and you know it's not best, it's good that you, you know, you, you reinforce and
hold the line and say, "Look, this is our process. This is how we need to move forward." And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, they, they have that realization on why, but they don't always know that going in. And that's where I think that education is really helpful. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So, so you said that y- you do an initial
Zoom call, which, which is great. I mean, I, you know, I, I think, you know, to the extent that, you know, being able to look someone in the eyes and see them and read their body language, that's a whole lot easier than, you know, just doing it over the phone and- Mm-hmm. ... you know, and that's even better than just a, an email or a text message. Like kind of- Yeah. ... building those relationships is so important. Do you, like at what point do you go out on site? Like is that something that
you don't do until after they've, they've signed? Or are you closing just via Zoom? Or do you go out- Yeah. ... and do, do an on, on-site consultation as well? Yeah. I'll explain a little further. It, the first one's actually a phone call. So like the lead comes in, and then they have to send photos. Uh, this is all automated by the way, but they send photos. Um, if they don't send photos, they're put into a reminder sequence to get those photos.
Once we have photos, then they have access to schedule a phone call with me. Um, so high level, this is a pretty high friction process, but being the only sales guy, I kind of like the extra friction. Um, weeds out the, the super tire-kickers. So once we have that phone call, it's just to learn a little bit more about what they're looking for, see if we can help, when are they looking to do it, and it probably weeds out like 20, 25% of the people that make it to that stage so that
way I'm not driving to everybody. Um, after the phone call, we schedule an on-site. On-site's your pretty typical on-site meeting where we look at samples, um, get measurements, and then on-site sometimes I'll do a 3D rendering so they can see it. And then from there, usually within a week we schedule a Zoom call so that I have a little bit of time to put together the proposal, all the options, and
we just go over it on that Zoom call. And then some people we close on the Zoom call, some people I just send them the proposal and we book a meeting from that meeting to just follow up. Gotcha. Yeah. So sound, sounds like it's working good. I mean, do you- Yeah. ... do you feel like, uh,
do, do you feel like you're often competing against other, other deck builders? Or are you able to, you know, kind of once you get in there and you get going down the path, like you can kind of, you know, close it down hopefully quickly enough that they're not going out shopping? Yeah, they still are. Most of our customers are getting, you know, the typical three bids, especially in the last year or two. I think that was probably different
in COVID times. If you got out there, you got the job type, type of thing. Yeah. But now they are more consistently getting three, but, um, nobody's doing anything with this high level of touch. So it's super... Like it stands out so much more, it's crazy. Um, two examples is,
one, we just got a, a HOA project, so there's like 44 decks there. And we were absolutely not the cheapest, which I would have thought they were only looking for the cheapest 'cause they're a big HOA, just trying to save money, but that was not the case. They went with us 'cause they liked the process and they liked, um, how I explained how we're gonna keep the whole community updated as the project progresses. Hm. And I had the opportunity to explain how we can do that by having a Zoom call.
Um, so they absolutely loved that. And then there was another one- So it's like y- you won 44 decks in one deal? Yeah, it was awesome. It's a good start to the year. Man, congrats. (laughs) That is awesome. Yeah, yeah. It was a great start. Um, and there was another giant project that we won, um, and the other person we were bidding against, they even had like a decent process. It was similar. Um,
but we were just able to... We, our, our call was after their call, so we were able to address some things that they talked about on that one, and they still went with us even though we were like seven grand more on a $60,000 project. Gotcha. So you're not, you're not coming in trying to be the cheapest, you know, low-balling them, and you, you know- Right. ... your numbers, you know your value, and you stick to it. Right. Yeah, absolutely.
That's awesome. Well, ju- just curious, what are you using for, uh, to like take the measurements and, and even doing, like if you do a 3D, 3D render, what, what tools are you using there? Yeah, taking measurements is still just by hand, just tape measure. Um, I have like a little reMarkable tablet, it's called, to just write everything down. Uh, and then the 3D rendering, we just use the TimberTech software.
Cool. It's not super in-depth, so you can't do anything like super crazy custom, but for 90% of what we're doing, it works perfect. Yeah. And I, and I can do it in 15 minutes in their driveway. That's awesome. I mean, you know, it's, it's, you know, and, and I just had a pool built, and like I think one of the things that really helped me feel comfortable moving forward was when, when they shared the designs and being able to visualize- Mm-hmm. ... exactly what this is gonna look like in my
backyard. You know, so if you can churn that out in 15 minutes, you know, that's awesome, and it just, again, it, it helps check off some more of those boxes. It helps kind of address, you know, that uncertainty, 'cause some people, they, they, they're not as good at visualizing. You know, they've never- Yeah. ... built a deck. They don't know what- Yeah.
... to expect, and like the more that you can educate them in the process and help them, you know, start to see what it's gonna be like to work with you, like, again, it just, it just helps lock down those deals, and, you know, uh, uh, uh, the sooner you can take them off the market, you know, the, the, the deal is yours. So whatever you can do to get them comfortable, you know, it sounds like you've really dialed that in and have got a very good process.
Yeah, the homeowners absolutely love it when I do that on site. One, 'cause nobody else does it. If they do, that's usually... they charge for it. And then- Yeah. ... three, I'm able to do it right there on site. And yeah, to your point, like I've never met a homeowner that can somehow visualize a deck they've never built. (laughs) (laughs) Yeah. I- uh, so it's, it's just tough to visualize for almost everybody. And are you... So like are you... You're, you're
building out... You're, you're doing the design right there. Like so you're just taking your laptop out there and doing it? Yeah, just in my truck. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, are you churning out the proposal at the same time? Sometimes. Okay. So if we want to get into the minutiae, um- Um, triple that and then make sure you always answer your phone call. These are really easy to turn on. You only pay for it if somebody fills out a form
or they call you. Um, and, uh, from Google's perspective, if you, like, increase your budget a whole bunch, from Google's perspective, they have this lead, and they have a bunch of people who wanna pay for it, so who's the most willing to pay for it? So I'm trying to raise my hand, like, "Hey, we'll pay a lot for this." And then the other key is, um, obviously always answer your phone 'cause the AI will track, um, who's answering the phone calls
to actually service the customer. And then if you have a real customer on the line, try to have a couple-minute conversation, 'cause they also track how long you're on the phone. Yeah. That- But those are a really easy one to turn on if anybody out there has a decent Google Business Page. Um, just YouTube, uh, Google Local Service Ads. Get those running. Yeah. That- Great- great advice. I mean, seriously, like, that-
that is- that is- that is next level right there. You know, and- and I see so many people that, you know, one, haven't set up their Google My Business profile- Mm-hmm. ... or two, like, they're not continually, like, feeding it. Like, you- you know- Yeah. ... upload photos of your work. Like, just continually feed that thing. Google will heavily reward you when you continue to upload photos, you continue to get reviews. Like, it's so important, you know, that- that- that you
show them that you're active, you know? And same thing on your website. Continually add, you know, new- new pages, new blog posts, like, whatever it may be. Like, they're gonna heavily value the people who are- are doing that, as well as if you're running ads, you- you know, they- they give even more love. So the more you can kinda do all of these things together, you know, it's- it's just so helpful and impactful. Yeah, and your point of, uh, I was updating the
Google page, the Google Business Page. Somebody else told me this, but it's so simple. Treat your Google Business Page like it's a social media page, like you're gonna post updates there, try to collect reviews, keep it active, um, keep stuff constantly going there. And if anything, I would put more effort on keeping that active because if- if you think about it, are you getting more leads from your Facebook or Instagram or more leads from
Google? Probably Google. So let's put a lot more time into updating that and keeping that active. Yeah. 100%. So y- you've talked about leads a couple time- or, uh, about reviews a couple times. Like, can you tell us a little bit more, like, what's your, you know... What do you do to- to get reviews? I mean, is that- is that something- Yeah. ... you've always done, or- or do you have some sort of program in place? We have a pretty in-depth process, but everybody I've told it to has
liked it a lot. And for us, it works incredibly well. Like, when we run this playbook perfectly, I've never had ne- somebody not leave a glowing review. So it- it starts with this study that was done with waiters and their tips. I don't know if anybody out there's heard this one, but it was like if a waiter left one mint at the table, they got, like, a 3% boost in their tips. If they left two mints at the table, they got, like, a 7% boost or whatever.
But if they left one, walked away from the table, came back, and gave them a second one 'cause there's two people there, uh, they got, like, a 23% boost in their tips. So way higher. So what was the takeaway from that study? The takeaway was that giving a gift helps a lot, um, and making it unexpected and personalized helps even more. So that's why they got that, like, 23% boost or whatever. It was unexpected 'cause the waiter walked away
and came back, and it was personalized 'cause it's like, "Oh, there's two people. Let me give you two mints." So from there, I try to think about, how can we apply that to what we do? So we do a gift at the end of the project, like everybody does, but we literally choreograph it to make it seem unexpected and personalized. So for the personalized piece, we just do, like, a nice bottle of wine or champagne. It's kinda celebratory on your deck.
Um, you can take it a step further if you do bigger projects and do like a Cutco gift, uh, gift set, and just make sure you have their last name engraved on it. Please don't put your company logo on it. Nobody- people will throw it away. But if you put their last name on it, they'll keep it forever and think about you whenever they use it. So anyways, to make it personalized, we use, like, a- a bottle of wine or champagne. And then to make it unexpected,
when we're wrapping up a project, we walk them through. "Anything else you guys need? Great. This was awesome. Any questions, let us know." I jump in the truck as if I'm gonna leave. We've wrapped it up. I sit there for, like, 10 seconds, grab the wine, walk back up to the house, knock on the door, and they look so confused. I'm like, "Hey, Mr. Smith. I'm so embarrassed. I almost forgot, but we got you guys, like, this little thank you gift.
Anyways, have a good day. I'm outta here." And they're over the moon at that point 'cause they just had this beautiful wrap-up and now you surprise them with this gift that was totally unnecessary. I've had multiple people, before I get home, leave a review with pictures without being asked- Hm. ... 'cause they are just over the moon. So- s- so wait, you gave them... So you first give them, like, Cutco knives with their last name-
Sorry, that's a different option. That's a different option- Okay. ... for- for a gift. Our gift is a bottle of wine or champagne. Okay. If you do, like, 100,000 plus projects, I'd probably invest a little bit more into the gift. Gotcha. So that's just another really good option. Gotcha. So it's- And then we choreograph it so it's- seems like we forgot about it. So now they're over the moon. Um, and then the real magic, if they don't leave a review right away, is when I send the email later
requesting the review. So they've just spent a week or two with our guys on site. They love them. They're hard workers. They talk to them. They're really appreciative of all their hard work. So what I do when I ask for the review is I say, "Hey, Mr. Smith. Um, thanks again for working with us. Any chance you'd be opposed to leaving us a short review on Google?
Brandon and Quinn," those are the two guys they love that's been in their backyard for a week, "Brandon and Quinn each get a $50 review if you leave them a five-star review." So we just built up, like, this amazing experience. They feel like they owe Brandon and Quinn, and now I'm just giving them an opportunity to pay Brandon and Quinn back for all their hard work by leaving me a review.
When you specifically word it like that at the end, I mean, it- it ki- in a nice way, it kinda guilt trips them into doing it, but everybody does it. It's incredibly powerful. That's awesome. I mean, I- I've been a big advocate for, you know, telling people like, "Look, when someone's spending, you know, a huge chunk of their- their- (laughs) their- Yeah. ... hard-earned money with you, like, that little gift." I mean, it's such a nominal expense. You know? 100%.
I mean, a bottle of wine is- i- i- it is a total rounding error in the greater perspective of how much profit you just earned on that job. But like, man, it is the customer experience that's- Mm-hmm. ... invaluable. You know? And- and like you said, I mean, it- it leads to the- to the reviews. It leads to them referring you to other people. Yup. It leads to them thinking about you the next time they need another project.
Yup. A- and it's just like, I- I don't understand how everyone doesn't do this. I don't get it either. You know? It- it is such an easy thing to do. It's so easy. And there's a book, some- some people have probably heard of it, called Gift- Giftology. Um, uh, the biggest thing with the gifts, and this is the biggest mistake I see of the people that do give gifts, is they always put their company logo on it. People don't want company logo stuff.
They're just... Have you ever, like, really kept a mug that has somebody else's logo on it in your house? Like, no. Nobody really cares about that. But what they will care about, that's why I like the Cutco example. I- I read this in a- or heard it on a podcast a couple years ago or something. Um, if you give them a little gift set of really nice knives with their last name on it, they will never throw that away. Not only will they never throw it away, they'll use it multiple
times a week. Every time they pull it out, they'll think about you. They don't need their logo- they don't need your logo- Hm. ... for them to think about you. So you wanna give them something that they're gonna keep forever and think about you. Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, you know, it- it definitely... I would say that takes a little bit more effort, you know- A little bit.
... to- to go kind of personalize that and order it. But, you know, again, companies like Cutco make it super easy- Incredibly easy. ... to be able to do that. Incredibly easy. And those gift sets are, like, around 200 bucks. So that's why our cutoff is, like, a $50,000 project. If it's less than that, we don't do the customized thing. If it's more than that, we'll invest a little bit more time into getting something a little nicer.
Man, I, I absolutely love that. You know, we, we do the same thing with our, uh, you know, with, with our team. So any time someone, uh, you know, gives us a five-star review, you know, the, the customer success manager, you know, they get a little bonus, just, you know, again, we, we want them going in saying, "I wanna bend over backwards, do everything I can to make sure this customer has a great experience from the very moment they sign up with JobTread." And, you know, it, it, it is really
just helps set the tone, you know, it, it, you know, not, not a huge thing, you know, but it, it, it definitely, I, I believe, makes an impact on the way that we approach every single customer from day one. Mm-hmm. And, you know, again, it's, uh, you know, most people probably don't know, maybe we need to, you know, uh, promote it a little bit better that we actually do something for our customer success managers for every- Yeah. ... five-star review that they get.
Yeah. Um, but, like, it, it, it's a great program, you know, and, and, and I'm sure your guys, you know, love it too, just knowing that they're, they've got that additional, you know, bonus coming if, if, if they can earn that five-star review for you. Exactly. That's the ancillary benefit. I give them permission, like, if the customer wants to talk with you, like, take the 10 minutes. Yeah. Yap with them for a little bit. If it goes over 15, 20, just tell them, "You gotta get back to work."
(laughs) But, like, take the extra time. Yeah. You know? Now, if, you know, again, I, I know a lot of times, you know, you ask for the reviews, someone says they'll do it, but they don't do it. Mm-hmm. You know, they, they forgot. Whatever the excuse is, like, so, you know, do you follow up? How many times do you follow up? Or do you just- Yeah. ... let it go? So once we started implementing that process perfectly, like, it's 90% are, are above that leave a review.
Wow. So for the few people that don't, um, I'll follow up once or twice, just like, "Hey, checking in to see if you were able to leave that review." Sometimes they don't show up on our end, so if you let me know that you have left one, then I can let Gogle, Google know that it ha- hasn't shown up. So that's just a bullshit excuse so that I have a reason to reach out. Um, or I'll just remind them, like, "Hey, were you able to leave that so, uh, I can get Brandon and Quinn their bonus?" Yeah.
If not, no worries. Awesome. Yeah. Man, that's, that's great. And Joe, this has, uh, been, been super insightful, uh, you know, kind of as- Mm-hmm. ... as we wrap up here. I mean, I'm, I'm curious, do you have any, any sort of final thoughts or advice? Like, you know, when, when you think back about, you know, again, the, the, the very beginnings of when you started Deck Science to- Mm-hmm.
... you know, what you've learned. I mean, is there anything that, like, you feel like you know now that you wish you would've known, you know, starting off that, that could've maybe saved you, you know, a couple challenges or headaches, or could've helped you to, to grow, you know, quicker or more profitable, that, you know, just... A- a- any, any general advice that you might wanna share with others who are looking to build, you know, a, a,
a successful business, you know, and, and hopefully follow in your footsteps here? Yeah. Um, this might not be, like, super applicable to everybody, but, um, when I first, first started, I swung so far into the pendulum side that I wanted everything to be, like, so templat- templatized and, like, not custom that I wouldn't even have to talk with the customers. I would just
send them the few options based on the size, you make your decision. But now I've gone the other way of, like, having more touch points with them, conversating with them more, being, you know, going out to their place, doing Zoom calls. That has worked way better, having more touch points, even though the actual product is still somewhat templatized. Um, the sales process is not templatized. It's more personalized. Um, and then just, like, some final nuggets that
is working for us right now that some other people might get some benefit from. Um, on our JobTread proposals, people loved this, I don't know why. But, uh, at the top, we literally have a group called Your Team, and then the sub-items under that is Your Project Manager, and then it's a picture of me, because I'm the project manager, and everything I'm responsible for, and under that is Your Foreman, picture of your foreman and everything they're responsible for.
Again, I don't know why, but people absolutely love that, 'cause they know who's gonna be in their backyard for the next week or two, and how often to expect the communications, you can explain it there, and who they need to reach out to at what stage of a project. So people have loved that. Man, that's awesome. I, I, I've- Yeah. ... heard from, uh, couple other, other builders who have done that as well, and they, and they think it, it is just such a difference maker for- Yeah.
... setting that tone and, and for setting the ex- expectations, you know, for the project moving forward. Mm-hmm. Like, again, like, the goal is to build a relationship here, and it's for your, your customers to feel like they know you. You know? Exactly. I mean, one, people buy from people they know, they like, they trust. You know, but even going
through the project, you know, again, this is construction. Not everything is gonna go perfectly well, you know, and so when those challenges do come about, you want them to feel like they can reach out to you and that they can, you know, bring any concerns to you, because the, the worst thing that can happen is someone's frustrated and says nothing, you have no idea, and you just keep going along. Mm-hmm.
You know, you, you could've course corrected, you could've, you know, done something different or made it right, but, like, you got to, to, to build that relationship so that they- Mm-hmm. ... feel comfortable. You know, and you also gotta make sure that you're, you're reaching out and asking and, and checking in. But, like, I love the idea of, of having, you know, that, that photo and, and, and being able to really put the names with the
face so that they know what to expect. That's, that's an awesome touch, man. Yeah. Yeah, it's helped a, he- helped a whole bunch. Same with the actual communication, uh, structure. Once the project is signed, it's, like, you know, maybe a month and a half til it starts. So last season, I started doing this where I just took control of
that communication process. Instead of waiting them to ask me a question or waiting couple weeks between messaging them, I just literally every single week at the same time Thursday morning, I just send an update individually to every customer we have in the pipeline. "Here's what happened this week. Here's what we're expecting to happen next week. I will message you again at this time on next Thursday." And questions disappeared. Oh. That's awesome. Yeah. It's, it's so helpful.
That's great, man. Uh, one last question. I, I'm just curious, you know, so, like- Yeah. ... what, what's your, what's your longer term, you know, vision here? Where, where do you wanna take, you know, Deck Science over the next, you know, five, 10 years? Yeah. I'd l- I would like to sell it probably around, like, 35 plus or minus three years, so
10-ish years from now. Um, where I really wanna be is, like, probably five to seven locations, hopefully each doing around, uh, probably about five top line, one bottom line. So then that way, if we have five locations doing one million bottom line each, that's five million bottom line. You could sell that, I don't know, what, five X, eight X, sell, exit, 25- Nice. ... to 45. Something like that. I, I love the fact that you, you already have a vision and goal that you've set for yourself.
It's where we're going. You know, that it's, so many people, they don't, they don't set goals. I mean, you gotta have annual goals, you gotta have monthly goals, you gotta have long-term goals. Like- Yeah. ... if you don't have your goals defined, you will never hit them. Yeah. You'll never know. I mean, you know, it's, it's so, it's so awesome that, you know, again, you, you can tell that you're very
forward-thinking. You know, you, you have really, you've ironed out the details of, of your day-to-day processes, you know, the, the, the operating processes, but your long-term, you know, goals and, and visions here. And I think that's, that, that has been, you know, something that has really helped you to, to be able to be so successful, and, and to be so young, man. I mean, at 26, like, holy cow. That's, that's incredible to see what you've been able to build
at such a young age. I mean, you know, starting at, you know, 23 years old, like, I mean, again, very few people can say that, that, that they even had the forethought of creating their own business and building something that is, you know, scalable and, and, and profitable, you know, with that, with that end goal in mind, so... Dude, I, I- Yeah. ... can't wait to, to continue watching you build this company. You know, your, your success is, is, it's motivating. You know, we love seeing
the, the success that you're having. But look, I also appreciate you coming on here and, and, and sharing with the rest of our community. You know, this is, this, this is the type of, you know, success story that people need to hear so that they can hopefully take away some nuggets, can implement some changes, and can be as successful as you. You know, uh, so many people just, they're, they're going at it alone and they don't know what they don't know, and, like, you don't have to do that, guys.
Mm-hmm. Like, you know, again, take the time, invest in yourself, invest in your team, set up your processes, set up your systems, focus on the customer experience, and you can build a very successful business just like Joe is doing here today. You know, thank you again, Joe, for, for coming on, for sharing this experience, sharing your wisdom with everyone out there. We, we, we truly appreciate it, man.
Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was really awesome. And if anybody out there, like, has any questions about any of the word vomit I just did, (laughs) just add me on Facebook. Happy to answer any questions. I don't post a lot on there, but I do check it a lot. So happy to help. Awesome. Yeah. And, and, uh, Job- uh, Joe's in our, in our JobTread Pros group, so- Yep. ... you know, certainly, uh, feel free to connect with him there. Spark up some discussions about this
podcast. Uh, again, everyone, really appreciate you tuning in, listening here, uh, to, to today's episode. And, uh, yeah, can't wait to, uh, to, to see what the future holds for you, Joe. Thanks again- Thanks, Erik. ... for coming on. Bye. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don't forget to subscribe to the show
and leave us a review. And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com. We'd love to hear from you. I'm Erik Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours.